Michael Beasley or Derrick Rose

[Thunder&Lightning]

Who you take with the #1 Pick in the 2008 NBA Draft?


Michael Beasley 6"10 PF Kansas State
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1030/ncb_beasley_200.jpg

or

Derrick Rose 6"3 PG Memphis
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1115/ncb_g_rose_200.jpg

[princefielder28]

Derrick Rose; there are very few PGs that come along with his size, frame, speed, and overall basketball ability. Michael Beasley is a sensational talent but there's usually an extremely talented 3 or 4 in every draft.

[Shane P. Hallam]

Easily Beasley.

[EvilMonkey]

I'll take Rose. As the level of elite prospects they are they're very similar but Beasley's attitude and immaturity are well-documented and I'd rather have Rose.

[Turtlepower]

As a Knicks fan, the easy choice is Rose. As a general fan, the easy choice is Rose.

[The Great Jonathan Vilma]

If you look at the majority of the good team in the league, they have an upper tier PG. Detroit, Utah, NO, Suns, Spurs, GS, etc. Teams like Boston and the Lakers have enough talent around them that they can do without that standout, but any team picking #1 will not have that around. You go with the freakish PG who can distribute and score when needed. I consider his floor level very high and in a league where the position is so important, you take it when you can.

Add in the fact that he took a team that i would consider weak offensively to the Championship game and some CDR missed FTs away from the 'Chip', he knows how to control a game.

[BigJohn98]

Big men win you championships in the NBA. I'll take Beasley.

[wingboy2999]

You need a good PG these days.

[Turtlepower]

Big men win you championships in the NBA. I'll take Beasley.

Beasley will most likely play the 3 or 4 in the NBA. I wouldn't call him a big man in the usual term.

[Flyboy]

Gimme D-Rose.

[BaLLiN]

Rose + Knicks = chance of being average

[Turtlepower]

Rose + Knicks = chance of being average

Rose + Knicks - Isiah Thomas = Chance of being watchable!!!!!!

[Bills2083]

I'm going with Rose.
I think he's going to be something special

[Dr. Gonzo]

Rose will be a damn good player in the NBA but Beasley is that rare player who can dominate the game at every level. In a few years I think Beasley will be one of the dominant SF's in the NBA.

[BaLLiN]

Rose + Knicks - Isiah Thomas = Chance of being watchable!!!!!!

agreed, i dont see much of nate robinson, what happened?

[skinzzfan25]

Beasley easily.

He could actually take over a game given a few years of conditioning. Rose is too inconsistent as a PG. He either needs to go the Chris Paul/ Steve Nash route and become great at dishing the ball, or be JKidd and drop serious points.

I for one don't think he's a great passer, and should try to score more. If I'm building a team, I'll take Beasley.

[Paul]

Beasley easily.

He could actually take over a game given a few years of conditioning. Rose is too inconsistent as a PG. He either needs to go the Chris Paul/ Steve Nash route and become great at dishing the ball, or be JKidd and drop serious points.


Kidd was never a great scorer, so I'm not sure what your going for there. Paul and Nash are far better scorers.

As for the Poll, give me Rose. Two positions I would always take to build a team around would be PG and Center, and with talent like Rose available, I would take him easily.

[619]

If you asked me a couple months ago I probably would of went with Beasley. However like many I've fallen in love with Rose's overall package the last few weeks. In my estimation Rose is the 'glue' guy capable of leading multitple championship teams in his prime. Sure Beasley will have the stats but sometimes it's necessary to look past it and focus on the 'intangibles' as in this case. Kinda like the Oden vs Durant argument at this time last year.

[TitleTown088]

Easily Beasley.

Exactly. Anyone who picked Rose is off their rocker.

[Shane P. Hallam]

Yeah, I don't understand how two games changed anything, lol.

[Nitschke-Hawk]

I'll take Derrick cause I've been watching him since his JR year, is truly special, and a great person. etc

Beasley's a little more questionable in areas in some people's eyes but I think he's put most of it to rest with his season.

Rose also won state championship in Illinois his jr and sr year and was a point away from NCAA Championship this year.

[ChezPower4]

This is a no brainer... Beasley. Players with his skill set don't come along very often. He has great size and athletism, has fantastic range, and is a beast around the basket.

[sweetness34]

Yeah, I don't understand how two games changed anything, lol.

Two games? Try the entire tournament. And Rose was playing dynamite down the stretch of the regular season as well, he was the reason Memphis even had a shot at beating Tennessee.

You can't go wrong with either player; Rose is a once in a decade PG prospect, Beasley is just a freakin' beast. Depends on what you're needs are.

If I'm a new organization I go with Rose. Why? He not only is an elite prospect, he makes people around him better which is not something I can say about Beasley. KSU lost when he tried to do too much. Rose made Dorsey, CDR, Dozier, Anderson, Kemp, Taggert, and Allen all better players. He was unselfish almost to a fault this year but when he wanted to take over (like he did in the 2nd half last night), he did.

When Derrick shores up that outside game, he's pretty much unstoppable. He also needs to work on the defense but he has improved in that area no question. He's got the size, the athleticism, the dribbling ability, the quickness, the vision, the leadership, the floor awareness, and everything else an elite PG prospects has in his arsenal. Kid is just flat out special.

It's pretty much 1A and 1B though right now

[sweetness34]

This is a no brainer... Beasley. Players with his skill set don't come along very often. He has great size and athletism, has fantastic range, and is a beast around the basket.

And players like Rose do?

[soybean]

As a Knicks fan, the easy choice is Rose. As a general fan, the easy choice is Rose.

it's easy to say that when one of them just got done playing the ship and the other was an early exit.

you put beasely on any of the final four teams and his stock would be just as high in my opinion.

he broke the freshman record for double doubles and a freshman record for the big 12 in his first 2 games.

right now we're severly underrating beasely because he isn't as fresh in our mind

with all that being said I'll go with rose. he's going to be the most athletic point guard once he gets into the league, except for maybe baron davis.

[Turtlepower]

it's easy to say that when one of them just got done playing the ship and the other was an early exit.

you put beasely on any of the final four teams and his stock would be just as high in my opinion.

he broke the freshman record for double doubles and a freshman record for the big 12 in his first 2 games.

right now we're severly underrating beasely because he isn't as fresh in our mind

with all that being said I'll go with rose. he's going to be the most athletic point guard once he gets into the league, except for maybe baron davis.

A lot of it sweetness said already, but I feel the bottom line is would you rather have a top-5 SF in the league or a top-5 PG in the league? I would take the PG every time.

[sweetness34]

Rose will the be most athletic PG in the NBA when he comes in, period. He's a freak. Baron is pretty studly but Derrick is ridiculous, I've seen him get his chin over the rim.

[soybean]

A lot of it sweetness said already, but I feel the bottom line is would you rather have a top-5 SF in the league or a top-5 PG in the league? I would take the PG every time.

in today's game yeah, mainly because we look at the things chris paul and steve nash are doing.

but when it comes down to it, you still need someone to be able to go toe to toe with the tim duncans, rasheed wallaces etc. of the league. If he plays PF that is.

EDIT: interesting debate though, there's really no right or wrong answer.

[princefielder28]

in today's game yeah, mainly because we look at the things chris paul and steve nash are doing.

but when it comes down to it, you still need someone to be able to go toe to toe with the tim duncans, rasheed wallaces etc. of the league. If he plays PF that is.

Beasley is a 3 at the next level, not a 4

[Turtlepower]

in today's game yeah, mainly because we look at the things chris paul and steve nash are doing.

but when it comes down to it, you still need someone to be able to go toe to toe with the tim duncans, rasheed wallaces etc. of the league. If he plays PF that is.

I'm wondering where Beasley will measure in at. I'm not sure that he will even break 6'10.

[sweetness34]

The NBA is still a guard driven league though. And a guy like Rose can make your bigs better than they are with his ability to penetrate and dish.

[thetedginnshow]

I'm wondering where Beasley will measure in at. I'm not sure that he will even break 6'10.

Is he supposed to?

[Brent]

Beasley. Is this a joke?

[619]

Beasley. Is this a joke?

No. Rose. I'm dead serious bro.

[Thunder&Lightning]

Beasley. Is this a joke?
No. Rose. I'm dead serious bro.

ya im pretty serious too

[Shiver]

I think that Derrick Rose would be the better pick. You don't go anywhere in the NBA without good PG play.

[wingboy2999]

Rose will the be most athletic PG in the NBA when he comes in, period. He's a freak. Baron is pretty studly but Derrick is ridiculous, I've seen him get his chin over the rim.

Are you losing your man crush on Deron already?

[princefielder28]

Are you losing your man crush on Deron already?

I think that just validates how highly he thinks of Rose

[wingboy2999]

I'd take....

Jordy Nelson.




I felt that there hadn't been a Jordy Nelson joke in awhile.

[sweetness34]

Are you losing your man crush on Deron already?

Nope, Deron's still my boy. But Rose is ridiculous. :D

[thetedginnshow]

I think that just validates how highly he thinks of Rose

Not that Rose is from Chicago or anything.

[sweetness34]

Beasley. Is this a joke?

Then why don't you state your opinion if you think taking Rose would be a joke....

[sweetness34]

Not that Rose is from Chicago or anything.

Haha yea that has something to do with it too. ;)

[The Great Jonathan Vilma]

anyone saying Beasley 'easily' is clearly not looking at this logically. It is far from a cut and dry answer.

The 'big men win championships' statement i read doesn't really apply. Beasley isn't your typical 'big man', so try again with that. Reverse that and look at the past Championship teams and look at the PGs. Same thing can be said but better apply to the two players discussed.

The statement of Rose being on the better team is true, but not to the extent that some are making it. Rose made that team so much better and made each individual player better. There is a reason they made it deeper in the tourney, and its not like they were a truley Elite team without him, scoring would be a real trouble spot. Rose opened shots, pushed tempo, and controlled the games.

I can see why people would pick Beasley, and i have no problem with that, but what i don't get is how people can say that it isn't really close......

[Turtlepower]

I love how people overlook Bill Walker on KSU whenever they say that there was no one on that team. I can say that Bill Walker would carry the team at times as well, a great example was the USC game where Walker dominated the Trojans.

[KCJ58]

Michael Beastley

[Aftermath]

Rose, it all starts through the PG, and hes pretty much the best you can get.

[Turtlepower]

Michael Beastley

Derrick "Kiss From a" Rose

[Thunder&Lightning]

Derrick "Kiss From a" Rose

****** love that song

[ATLDirtyBirds]

Derrick Rose is very very good. I still prefer Beasley. His athletism at his size, with that deadly lefty shot.. it's just too much to pass up on.

[Turtlepower]

****** love that song

Seal is awesome. A bit of an ass in person, but he is awesome!!!!!

Though Batman Returns sucked...

[toonsterwu]

In a neutral situation, I take Michael Beasley. The talent is too tough to pass up. Some of you make it seem like it's easy to find Michael Beasley type talent. Certainly, there's been an increasing number in recent years as the pro game has changed, but finding someone as dynamic as Beasley, well, that's still the exception and not the rule. Rose is good, but if I'm building from scratch, I take Beasley and try and build a veteran support structure around him. Oh, I'd play him at the 4.

That said, we aren't in a vacuum. If the veteran support structure is lacking, then I'd be a tad worried about Beasley. You also have to find a quality veteran talent. It can't be Beasley and nothings ... as that risks Beasley running loose a bit before he matures.

Now that said, I think for a number of teams in the lottery this year, I'd prefer Rose.

On a side note, is it me, or has there been a decline in the "prototypical" 2-guard (and the rise of the scoring point)? That is, the 6'5"-6'6" wing that can slash, shoot, defend the perimeter, has a decent handle that allows said individual to create on their own and create for teammates. You've got guys like Mayo, who's more of a scoring point in my opinion (and still curious how tall he is, I wouldn't be surprised if he's more 6'3"). Eric Gordon is undersized. About the only guys that would be close to protoype for a 2 guard, and is considered potential first round, that I can think of is Nicholas Batum and Brandon Rush. Budinger is more of a 3 for me. I thin CDR is a 3 as well. Maybe Tyler Smith, although I think of him more as a 3, and same goes for Earl Clark. Kyle Weaver's a big point. Courtney Lee seems a 2nd rounder. The one guy I do like is Roby.

[BBIB]

People are on the Rose bandwagon because they put too much stock in tournament success.

Michael Beasley and it's not even close.


Michael Beasley is far closer to making an immediate impact than Rose who needs to work on his shooting and passing.

[princefielder28]

People are on the Rose bandwagon because they put too much stock in tournament success.

Michael Beasley and it's not even close.


Michael Beasley is far closer to making an immediate impact than Rose who needs to work on his shooting and passing.

Passing??????

[wingboy2999]

Yeah... what the?

[Nitschke-Hawk]

BBBAAAAAAAAAHHHHAAAAAAAAA. That's what a top PG does.

[Paul]

Pretty sure he's just talking out his ass, trying to prove his point. Failure.

[wingboy2999]

Seal is awesome. A bit of an ass in person, but he is awesome!!!!!

Though Batman Returns sucked...

YOU BITE YOUR TONGUE!!!! BATMEN RETURNS RULED!

[Paul]

Wasn't "Kiss From a Rose" on Batman Forever?

[princefielder28]

Wasn't "Kiss From a Rose" on Batman Forever?

yes it was....

[wingboy2999]

THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT I MEANT!!!

And the gem "Smash it up" by The Offspring and "The Riddler" by Method Man. GREAT soundtrack.

[Turtlepower]

Wasn't "Kiss From a Rose" on Batman Forever?

Damn, I was thinking the third batman and Val Kilmer, but mistyped the movie...

[wingboy2999]

Batman Forever is still great.

Someone change this to Batman Returns or Batman Forever.

[MetSox17]

It doesn't surprise me that so many people are choosing Derrick Rose right now.
It's right after he just finished having the run of his life with Memphis, even though he choked away a National Title.

People are quick to say, "well you need a PG, and there's big men every year".
Well, there's no big men that can score at will like Beasley can every year.
He's too fast for the bigs, and too big for the fasts, he's mismatch heaven for the team that drafts him.

I'm in no way slighting Derrick Rose, cause he's gonna be a hell of a player, but there's so much he needs to work on still, he's very much a raw prospect. He can slash and get to the bucket at will, but too many times i saw him put up horrible shots once inside, instead of dishing to the open guy. I don't think he's as true a PG as Chris Paul, but he does remind me a lot of Brandon Roy (minus the sweet jumper).

[Thunder&Lightning]

Batman>Superman

[wingboy2999]

I don't think he's as true a PG as Chris Paul, but he does remind me a lot of Brandon Roy (minus the sweet jumper).

Paul can't hit jumpers with consistency yet.

[MetSox17]

Paul can't hit jumpers with consistency yet.

I didn't say he could, but he's a polished PG.

His dribble penetration is ridiculous, as is his vision and passing.

And i'd take that over a jumper from my PG any day

[Paul]

I love how everyone assumes the Rose supporters picked him just because of his performance on the tournament (Which is a valid reason itself) alone. Like were all idiot drones who never saw a game before March.

[MetSox17]

I love how everyone assumes the Rose supporters picked him just because of his performance on the tournament (Which is a valid reason itself) alone. Like were all idiot drones who never saw a game before March.

Well when you wanna have as un-biased an opinion as possible, you don't do it after someone has been on the big stage for a whole month.

That's like asking if you feel Roger Clemens took steroids right after he went and laid an egg in front of congress.

I'm not saying you don't have valid points, but no matter what, this discussion is already too subjective just based on the fact that Rose played more nationally televised games than Beasley did this month

[wingboy2999]

I didn't say he could, but he's a polished PG.

His dribble penetration is ridiculous, as is his vision and passing.

And i'd take that over a jumper from my PG any day

I'd say Rose has great dribble penetration as well. He needs to assert himself more [like for that 10-15 minute stretch]. Obviously it's not at Paul's level... but that is pretty hard to do.

[MetSox17]

I'd say Rose has great dribble penetration as well. He needs to assert himself more [like for that 10-15 minute stretch]. Obviously it's not at Paul's level... but that is pretty hard to do.

If you look at my first post, i did say that "he could slash and get to the bucket at will". I know it's not at Paul's level, but his decision making once he gets down there is a bit shady as of now. Too many times i saw him throw up the ball with bad angles instead of dishing out to the open guy.

[jballa838]

If the Sonics win the Lotto, they'd pick Rose because Watson is a better 2 and Durant moves to 3 and Green moves to 4. Beasley maybe, but IMO Rose is an extremely special player. Miami picks Beasley. Other than that they are split. Rose I would pick in a heartbeat

[wingboy2999]

Yeah, he tends to commit the cardinal sin of jumping into the air without knowing what he is going to do. He turned it over once last night while doing that. Didn't get him in trouble much otherwise.

[MetSox17]

Yeah, he tends to commit the cardinal sin of jumping into the air without knowing what he is going to do. He turned it over once last night while doing that. Didn't get him in trouble much otherwise.

Yep.
My High School coach made us run 5 in 60's whenever we jumped to make a pass. It's one of the biggest no no's on offense a ball handler can make. Especially with pressure defense.

[The Great Jonathan Vilma]

yep, we certainly just taking Rose because of the Tourny, i guess we should just discard it as those games really don't count.

Just because people take Rose doesn't mean they didn't see him during the season. Honestly, its safe to say he played much more dominant in the tourney than the regular season, but what the hell does that matter? He has the talent, athletic ability, and mindset that is required for a PG.

Just as people talk like people only saw Rose in the tourney, every Joe acts as if they've seen 'so many' games of Beasley, which i highly doubt. You can't discard what Rose did just because Beasley lost way sooner.

Like i said before, i'm okay with people taking Beasley, you can't go wrong either way IMO, but the crap people throw out as to why people are choosing Rose like it discredits the selection is pretty poor (see BBIB for an example)

[Sportsfan486]

People don't seem to realize or forget that Beasley is a superior prospect to Durant last year and, imo, better than the vastly overrated Oden (zomgacenteromgdraft#1).

If not for his maturity issues (which seem to come more from being so much better than everyone else, a problem he won't have in the NBA) he'd be about as good as prospects go.

Rose is a great talent and could turn into a star at the next level. He can score, he can pass and he plays hard D every time down the court.

I think they're equal talents but Beasley probably has more upside and value as he could be dominant on both ends if he works for it. Rose is a PG and so his value defensively is somewhat limited.

Either player would make a great #1 overall.

[MetSox17]

Well when you wanna have as un-biased an opinion as possible, you don't do it after someone has been on the big stage for a whole month.

That's like asking if you feel Roger Clemens took steroids right after he went and laid an egg in front of congress.

I'm not saying you don't have valid points, but no matter what, this discussion is already too subjective just based on the fact that Rose played more nationally televised games than Beasley did this month

Re-read that since you may have skipped it.

No one is discrediting anyone's opinions, but i am saying that the poll isn't as clean as it COULD be, seeing as everyone saw a lot more of Rose recently, and not enough of Beasley. But hey, that's just the human mind.

And I for one did watch a lot of Big 12 coverage and Beasley was just straight balling everyone that tried him. Like i said earlier also, he's too fast for the bigs and too big for the fasts.

Rose needs to work on his decision making and his jump shot and he'll be a great player. He reminds me of Brandon Roy

[wingboy2999]

I don't know.... The buzz around Beasley is not as much as Durant.

[MetSox17]

I don't know.... The buzz around Beasley is not as much as Durant.

Because they're different types of players.

You can't market Beasley as easy as you can market Durant.

KD was Nike's dream. Beasley is gonna end up with a Reebok or Adidas contract.

I see Nike going after Derrick Rose the second he declares and signs and agent

[Sportsfan486]

I don't know.... The buzz around Beasley is not as much as Durant.

Beasley outdid Durant's freshman season in the same conference.

Plus Beasley has a more refined offensive game, a better NBA body (he's a lot more stout than a rail-thin Durant,) he's much stronger and will be able to get rebounds in the NBA, something which Durant is too thin/weak to do consistently.

Durant was more mature and had a better overall feel for the game, but lacks Beasley's raw talent and overall skillset.

[yo123]

People need to stop with the "Big men win Championships" line.

First of all, as many people have said, Beasley is a 3 or a 4 in the NBA. Second, big men do not win championships any more. It's an up and down game, and it has turned pretty perimeter oriented over the years.

Give me D-Rose.

[Gatz]

Give me Michael Beasley, he absolutely dominates in games.

[JT Jag]

For the Magic, Rose. Definately.

[sweetness34]

Give me Michael Beasley, he absolutely dominates in games.

And forgets he has teammates on the floor. Granted his supporting cast wasn't great but Beasley needs to learn that he can't do everything by himself. In the NBA he can't shoot it every time he gets the basketball.

Rose makes guys around him better and he took Memphis to another level as a team.

Again if I'm starting a basketball team from scratch, I take Rose.

[yo123]

Beasley also seemed pretty lazy at times when I watched him. Content to get fronted in the post and became way to perimeter oriented at times. Rose goes all out all the time.

[Gatz]

Beasley is a rare talent imo. More talented than Rose. Can't pass on him if you have the #1 choice.

[yo123]

Beasley is a rare talent imo. More talented than Rose. Can't pass on him if you have the #1 choice.


Beasley isn't that rare. Elite PG prospects are much more rare than elite SF/PF prospects.

[Sportsfan486]

Beasley isn't that rare. Elite PG prospects are much more rare than elite SF/PF prospects.

That's an absolutely absurd statement. If anything elite PG and elite SF/PF prospects are found on an equal basis.

Plus Beasley was, what, the most productive freshman EVER? Whereas Rose was par for the course for a PG on an elite team?

[LonghornsLegend]

Because they're different types of players.

You can't market Beasley as easy as you can market Durant.

KD was Nike's dream. Beasley is gonna end up with a Reebok or Adidas contract.

I see Nike going after Derrick Rose the second he declares and signs and agent


HUH? Where did you get this from that you cannot market Beasley as easily? Durant isnt this super interesting guy that loves to get in front of cameras and talk and make people laugh, so id love to know whats so marketable about him that Beasley doesnt have.


Nike will be going after BOTH guys hard, not just one or the other, but I dont buy one is more marketable then the other.

[MetSox17]

HUH? Where did you get this from that you cannot market Beasley as easily? Durant isnt this super interesting guy that loves to get in front of cameras and talk and make people laugh, so id love to know whats so marketable about him that Beasley doesnt have.


Nike will be going after BOTH guys hard, not just one or the other, but I dont buy one is more marketable then the other.

Funny how you always like to pick on my opinions only.
But anyway, i've heard it being mentioned many many times and many different occasions that big men aren't shoe sellers. It only makes sense.

Why is it that Carmelo and Lebron have had their own shoe the second they went into the league, but it took Kevin Garnett so long? His shoes don't sell anywhere near where the Nike's do. Nike doesn't give any big guys their own shoe, it's pretty safe to assume that the reason they don't is because they wouldn't make as much money as they would focusing their marketing on guards that can score and dunk

[yo123]

That's an absolutely absurd statement. If anything elite PG and elite SF/PF prospects are found on an equal basis.

Plus Beasley was, what, the most productive freshman EVER? Whereas Rose was par for the course for a PG on an elite team?


Put Rose on K State and he puts up crazy numbers too.

And a look at the past 5 drafts.

Notable PG's- Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, Kirk Hinrich, Devin Harris

Notable SF's- Lebron, Carmelo, Josh Smith, Josh Howard, Danny Granger, Andre Igoudala

Tell me, as a whole, which group is better.

[yo123]

HUH? Where did you get this from that you cannot market Beasley as easily? Durant isnt this super interesting guy that loves to get in front of cameras and talk and make people laugh, so id love to know whats so marketable about him that Beasley doesnt have.


Nike will be going after BOTH guys hard, not just one or the other, but I dont buy one is more marketable then the other.


Because Durant's game is a lot flashier, Beasley is a banger.

[sweetness34]

That's an absolutely absurd statement. If anything elite PG and elite SF/PF prospects are found on an equal basis.

Plus Beasley was, what, the most productive freshman EVER? Whereas Rose was par for the course for a PG on an elite team?

Not really...How many elite SF/PF prospects are there in the NBA? Hmmm....Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, Gasol, Boozer, Stoudemire, Howard are PF's. Carmelo Anthony, Josh Howard, Rudy ***, Kevin Durant, Andre Iguodala, Richard Jefferson, etc are SF's.

Nash, Paul, Kidd, and Williams are really the only elite PG's in the NBA right now. There are plenty of good ones but it's a lot easier to find an elite SF/PF than it is to find a PG.

[MetSox17]

Put Rose on K State and he puts up crazy numbers too.

And a look at the past 5 drafts.

Notable PG's- Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, Kirk Hinrich, Devin Harris

Notable SF's- Lebron, Carmelo, Josh Smith, Josh Howard, Danny Granger, Andre Igoudala

Tell me, as a whole, which group is better.

How does Rose put up great numbers in K State??

All Beasley had was Bill Walker who came off a knee injury last year.

[sweetness34]

Put Rose on K State and he puts up crazy numbers too.

And a look at the past 5 drafts.

Notable PG's- Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, Kirk Hinrich, Devin Harris

Notable SF's- Lebron, Carmelo, Josh Smith, Josh Howard, Danny Granger, Andre Igoudala

Tell me, as a whole, which group is better.

Rudy ***...Kevin Durant....

[yo123]

Rudy ***...Kevin Durant....


Absolutely.

And to the guy above me, if Rose was at K-State and got as many shots as Beasley got, he would have put up big huge numbers.

[thebow305]

I'd probably go Rose. I'm not sure how good Beasley will be in the NBA when he isn't able to dominate everyone with his physical style of play.

[Sportsfan486]

Put Rose on K State and he puts up crazy numbers too.

And a look at the past 5 drafts.

Notable PG's- Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Raymond Felton, Kirk Hinrich, Devin Harris

Notable SF's- Lebron, Carmelo, Josh Smith, Josh Howard, Danny Granger, Andre Igoudala

Tell me, as a whole, which group is better.

I'm so confused now... because.. how can you argue those PGs AREN'T a better group than the SFs? Josh Smith? Josh Howard? GRANGER? IGOUDALA? Are you SERIOUS?

Deron and Paul were both about as elite of prospects as PGs go. Harris and Felton weren't terribly far off.

That PG class is about 3x better than that SF class. I'd die laughing if not for James.

[Sportsfan486]

Double post, gah.

[Sportsfan486]

Not really...How many elite SF/PF prospects are there in the NBA? Hmmm....Duncan, Garnett, Nowitzki, Gasol, Boozer, Stoudemire, Howard are PF's. Carmelo Anthony, Josh Howard, Rudy ***, Kevin Durant, Andre Iguodala, Richard Jefferson, etc are SF's.

Nash, Paul, Kidd, and Williams are really the only elite PG's in the NBA right now. There are plenty of good ones but it's a lot easier to find an elite SF/PF than it is to find a PG.

Wow, look at that. You do two positions and the number doubles! MAGIC. AND WTF? GASOL? JOSH HOWARD? RUDY? DURANT? IGUODALA? JEFFERSON? Exactly WHICH of these guys are ELITE right now?

[yo123]

I'm so confused now... because.. how can you argue those PGs AREN'T a better group than the SFs? Josh Smith? Josh Howard? GRANGER? IGOUDALA? Are you SERIOUS?

Deron and Paul were both about as elite of prospects as PGs go. Harris and Felton weren't terribly far off.

That PG class is about 3x better than that SF class. I'd die laughing if not for James.




What?!! The PG list pretty much ended at Paul and Williams, I just put the others on as a formality. They are MUCH worse than Deron or Paul.

And yeah, Granger, Josh Howard, and Igoudala are all great NBA players, if you don't know that then I really question your basketball knowledge.

[yo123]

Wow, look at that. You do two positions and the number doubles! MAGIC. AND WTF? GASOL? JOSH HOWARD? RUDY? DURANT? IGUODALA? JEFFERSON? Exactly WHICH of these guys are ELITE right now?


Wait a minute. If we are listing only elite players, then the PG list has two ******* players on it. The SF list is so much deeper it's not even a debate.

[Sportsfan486]

Wait a minute. If we are listing only elite players, then the PG list has two ******* players on it. The SF list is so much deeper it's not even a debate.

Umm.. ELITE SFs...? Who exactly? Lebron and.. .. who? Anthony, okay, I'll give you 'melo. Then who?

PGs is three. Williams, Paul, Nash.

[Sportsfan486]

What?!! The PG list pretty much ended at Paul and Williams, I just put the others on as a formality. They are MUCH worse than Deron or Paul.

And yeah, Granger, Josh Howard, and Igoudala are all great NBA players, if you don't know that then I really question your basketball knowledge.

Dude, do you realize we're talking about PROSPECTS? As PROSPECTS that PG list is better. Paul, Williams, Harris, Felton were all elite PG prospects. Lebron and Anthony were basically it for your list as far as elite SF prospects.

[yo123]

Umm.. ELITE SFs...? Who exactly? Lebron and.. .. who? Anthony, okay, I'll give you 'melo. Then who?

PGs is three. Williams, Paul, Nash.



PG is two. Nash was like 15 years ago. We're talking about recently.

[yo123]

Dude, do you realize we're talking about PROSPECTS? As PROSPECTS that PG list is better. Paul, Williams, Harris, Felton were all elite PG prospects. Lebron and Anthony were basically it for your list as far as elite SF prospects.


ummm... Kevin Durant was absolutely an elite prospect. And if you consider Harris and Felton elite prospects, then Rudy *** and Andre Igoudala are definetly elite.

[YAYareaRB]

I think Beasley will be the best pro in the draft. He'd make the most all around impact on a team compared to the rest of the prospect so he'd easily be my #1 pick. The only weaknesses of Beasley that I hear about is his attitude.

Taking nothing away from Rose and his accomplishments though. I think it could go either way. Seeing that Miami is in a definite rebuilding mode with both Point and Small Forward being a big question on that team, I could see it going either way here.

[Sportsfan486]

ummm... Kevin Durant was absolutely an elite prospect. And if you consider Harris and Felton elite prospects, then Rudy *** and Andre Igoudala are definetly elite.

Igoudala the pg/sg/sf athlete/tweener? Elite prospect? Not in the same sentence.. please.

Rudy ***? Elite? The guy couldn't pass and couldn't create with the ball in his hands. .... that's.. kind of a dilemma. He never produced like he should have. No where near elite.

Here, let me give you the real list from the past 5 years.

ELITE PROSPECTS.

PG - Conley, Williams, Paul, Felton, Harris*

SF - Durant, Marvin Williams*, James, Anthony

* = Sorta/kinda

[MetSox17]

Raymond Felton, Mike Conley Jr, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, TJ Ford, Kirk Hinrich, Jay Williams, DaJuan Wagner, Devin Harris, Shaun Livingston

All great prospects coming out

just a few names i thought were forgotten outside the big two

[benchod]

If Beasley measures out to be a legit 4, then I take him by the slightest margin. If he becomes a hybrid 3/4, I start to lean slightly more towards Rose.

Both players look NBA ready, they rate way higher as a duo than Durant/Oden from a year ago in almost every sense.

I worry that Rose may become more of a combo guard than a true PG. Sometimes his decision making can be spotty, but that can easily be worked on by coaching.

For Beasley, there's always the argument that he doesn't try, but if that's the best argument people have, Beasley will be ridiculously good. The worry you have is immediate impact. Guards tend to do better immediately.

As always, it depends on the team, but in this draft, it almost looks like all teams have the decision made for them based on their roster, except for a few. Assuming Miami has the first pick, they actually could use both, and I would actually lean towards Rose in their situation.

[TheGreatEscape]

Beasley. He can be a completely dominant scorer and explosive defender with his wingspan, athleticism, strength and quickness. Rose is a great PG prospect but he's not that much better than Paul IMO so guys like him do come around.

[yodapoop]

I'd choose Candace Parker if I was the Heat. I think she is hot. If u don't think so, great, she is all mine then.

[Sportsfan486]

Beasley. He can be a completely dominant scorer and explosive defender with his wingspan, athleticism, strength and quickness. Rose is a great PG prospect but he's not that much better than Paul IMO so guys like him do come around.

Plus if not for size Paul was twice the prospect.

Beasley's concern is his not trying. His size isn't an issue with his speed, quickness, power and long arms. He doesn't try as hard as he could because he is SO dominant. He could be an MVP type guy at some point.. I think Rose could be great but maybe not MVP great.

[yodapoop]

But if the Heat were to select Candace other dudes would get to see my girl naked. Screw that, never mind.

[sweetness34]

Raymond Felton, Mike Conley Jr, Deron Williams, Chris Paul, TJ Ford, Kirk Hinrich, Jay Williams, DaJuan Wagner, Devin Harris, Shaun Livingston

All great prospects coming out

just a few names i thought were forgotten outside the big two

Felton, Conley, Hinrich, Wagner, and Harris were not GREAT prospects coming out, sorry. Good prospects but not great.

[sweetness34]

How can you say in regards to those two prospects, "well I think Beasley may be an MVP prospect, but not Rose."

WTF? Derrick Rose is widely regarded as the best prospect to come out of Chicago since Isiah. And that includes McGrady and Garnett. Derrick is a superstar caliber PG prospect.

And I hate the "if he wasn't this height" argument. If Rose was 6'6" with his skill set he'd be arguably one of the most talented prospects to ever come out of High School.

[Sportsfan486]

Felton, Conley, Hinrich, Wagner, and Harris were not GREAT prospects coming out, sorry. Good prospects but not great.

Conley and Felton were definitely great prospects. Harris was at least very, very good.

[sweetness34]

I think Beasley will be the best pro in the draft. He'd make the most all around impact on a team compared to the rest of the prospect so he'd easily be my #1 pick. The only weaknesses of Beasley that I hear about is his attitude.

Taking nothing away from Rose and his accomplishments though. I think it could go either way. Seeing that Miami is in a definite rebuilding mode with both Point and Small Forward being a big question on that team, I could see it going either way here.

Beasley is a mediocre defender, doesn't have very good passing skills right now, and like you said has attitude problems. Derrick's deficiencies are his defense (which has improved immensely) and his outside shooting which has improved as well.

[sweetness34]

Conley and Felton were definitely great prospects. Harris was at least very, very good.

Which is why Felton was chosen outside the top 10, good argument.

Conley is not and will never be a "great player." He doesn't have an outside shot and he doesn't have very good size. Your definition of a "great prospect" is pretty porous IMO.

Deron Williams wasn't even a great prospect coming out, many thought he went to high in that draft. He has become a great player but he was not a "great prospect." I'm saying this and I'm an Illini fan.

[TheGreatEscape]

Plus if not for size Paul was twice the prospect.

Beasley's concern is his not trying. His size isn't an issue with his speed, quickness, power and long arms. He doesn't try as hard as he could because he is SO dominant. He could be an MVP type guy at some point.. I think Rose could be great but maybe not MVP great.

Beasley was a saint in his one season at K state, busted his butt and made that a team capable of beating anyone. I mention his strength because I think it puts him on a different than guys like Durant, Marvin Williams or the other elite wings.

[Sportsfan486]

How can you say in regards to those two prospects, "well I think Beasley may be an MVP prospect, but not Rose."

WTF? Derrick Rose is widely regarded as the best prospect to come out of Chicago since Isiah. And that includes McGrady and Garnett. Derrick is a superstar caliber PG prospect.

And I hate the "if he wasn't this height" argument. If Rose was 6'6" with his skill set he'd be arguably one of the most talented prospects to ever come out of High School.

Scorers win MVP. Rose isn't an elite scorer, imo. And Rose wasn't even the top HS prospect in his class, not even top 3 according to most rankings.

[yo123]

Beasley was a saint in his one season at K state, busted his butt and made that a team capable of beating anyone. I mention his strength because I think it puts him on a different than guys like Durant, Marvin Williams or the other elite wings.



Whoa now, he's a great player and did great things this year, but if you think he busted his butt 100% of the time you're kidding yourself.

[princefielder28]

Scorers win MVP. Rose isn't an elite scorer, imo. And Rose wasn't even the top HS prospect in his class, not even top 3 according to most rankings.

what rankings you looking at???

[MetSox17]

Felton, Conley, Hinrich, Wagner, and Harris were not GREAT prospects coming out, sorry. Good prospects but not great.

Wow, are you kidding??

Conley and Felton have the potential to turn into Chris Pauls.
Their games are structured similarly, and both are tremendously athletic.

If anything, Derrick Rose reminds me of Devin Harris right now, but Harris
has a way better shot.

And Wagner.. lol..
Wagner was supposed to be the next coming of Jesus coming out.
He was the greatest thing to ever come out of Memphis, even better than Derrick Rose. You have to be freaking joking if you didn't think he was an elite prospect

[yo123]

Scorers win MVP. Rose isn't an elite scorer, imo. And Rose wasn't even the top HS prospect in his class, not even top 3 according to most rankings.




Steve Nash has won 2 of the last three MVP's. He's not a scorer. And Rose is more definetly a scorer anyway. That's one of the things he does best. No one is better at finishing around the basket.

[sweetness34]

Scorers win MVP. Rose isn't an elite scorer, imo. And Rose wasn't even the top HS prospect in his class, not even top 3 according to most rankings.

Nash won an MVP twice in a row. Again, another great argument by you.

Keep trying though, eventually you'll get there. Those rankings were ******* horrible. Anyone can see that Rose is either the first or second best player in his class.

Again, using rankings as your argument is not very good either.

[Sportsfan486]

Which is why Felton was chosen outside the top 10, good argument.

Conley is not and will never be a "great player." He doesn't have an outside shot and he doesn't have very good size. Your definition of a "great prospect" is pretty porous IMO.

Deron Williams wasn't even a great prospect coming out, many thought he went to high in that draft. He has become a great player but he was not a "great prospect." I'm saying this and I'm an Illini fan.

Uhh.. Felton went.. number.. 5? Conley went number 3, in case you've forgotten that, too. He wasn't the best prospect ever but he was great.

[sweetness34]

Wow, are you kidding??

Conley and Felton have the potential to turn into Chris Pauls.
Their games are structured similarly, and both are tremendously athletic.

If anything, Derrick Rose reminds me of Devin Harris right now, but Harris
has a way better shot.

And Wagner.. lol..
Wagner was supposed to be the next coming of Jesus coming out.
He was the greatest thing to ever come out of Memphis, even better than Derrick Rose. You have to be freaking joking if you didn't think he was an elite prospect

Lay off the crack, seriously...Because it's affecting your brain.

Conley and Felton have the potential to turn into Paul's? WHAT THE ****????? Are you serious dude? Wow, this is getting laughable right now.

[Sportsfan486]

Nash averaged over 18 in his MVP seasons and was a freakishly good passer in those years. Will Rose average over 18 and remain a passer first? I doubt it.

Can he average over 18? DEFINITELY. NO QUESTION. I think it's LIKELY at some point in his career. But can he be an elite PG and score over 18? I don't really think so.

Why am I even arguing this? I like Rose as a prospect. He's elite, definitely. He has the potential to be a top 5 point.

The arguement that PGs are rarer than SFs is crazy. That's all I'm saying.

[sweetness34]

Uhh.. Felton went.. number.. 5? Conley went number 3, in case you've forgotten that, too. He wasn't the best prospect ever but he was great.

Conley went #4, Horford went #3. I got May and Felton confused.

Still though, neither was a "great prospect" coming out. Felton can't play defense and his outside shot is inconsistent. Plus his decision making is suspect.

I'm sorry but Conley is not a great prospect.

[sweetness34]

Nash averaged over 18 in his MVP seasons and was a freakishly good passer in those years. Will Rose average over 18 and remain a passer first? I doubt it.

Can he average over 18? DEFINITELY. NO QUESTION. I think it's LIKELY at some point in his career. But can he be an elite PG and score over 18? I don't really think so.

That doesn't mean he's a freakin' "scorer." Nash is a point guard....A shooting guard or small forward is classified as a scorer.

[yo123]

Wow, are you kidding??

Conley and Felton have the potential to turn into Chris Pauls.
Their games are structured similarly, and both are tremendously athletic.

If anything, Derrick Rose reminds me of Devin Harris right now, but Harris
has a way better shot.

And Wagner.. lol..
Wagner was supposed to be the next coming of Jesus coming out.
He was the greatest thing to ever come out of Memphis, even better than Derrick Rose. You have to be freaking joking if you didn't think he was an elite prospect



Felton has absolutely no chance to turn into Chris Paul, he has been in the league for three years and has shown no signs of being anywhere near Chris Paul. And as sweetness said, Conley doesn't have enough of a scoring game to be on Paul's level.

Derrick Rose=Devin Harris? Are you joking? Harris is a twig. Rose is built like a brick ****house. Rose can get in the lane and score almost at will. Harris can't. Rose is a power point guard (although he is still crazy quick.)
Harris is a finesse player.

[MetSox17]

Lay off the crack, seriously...Because it's affecting your brain.

Conley and Felton have the potential to turn into Paul's? WHAT THE ****????? Are you serious dude? Wow, this is getting laughable right now.

And you're letting their current status as NBA players affect your judgment as prospects. WTF, obviously NBA teams thought they were talented enough to go in the top 5. Chris Paul didn't have a shot in College, and he still doesn't have much of one right now. He's great for his court vision, his athleticism and speed, his defense and his passing.

Conley and Felton have the athleticism that's needed and both are very good off the dribble, how the hell is that much of a reach.

[TheGreatEscape]

How can you say in regards to those two prospects, "well I think Beasley may be an MVP prospect, but not Rose."

WTF? Derrick Rose is widely regarded as the best prospect to come out of Chicago since Isiah. And that includes McGrady and Garnett. Derrick is a superstar caliber PG prospect.

And I hate the "if he wasn't this height" argument. If Rose was 6'6" with his skill set he'd be arguably one of the most talented prospects to ever come out of High School.

No one's talking about Rose's height he was saying if Paul had Rose's size he'd be twice the prospect.

My issue with Rose is that he is significantly worse shooting from the perimeter and is a sloppy decisionmaker in half court sets. On the run he's incredible, but in a halfcourt set he's less dominant. Plus I think that if you built a team around Rose he'd be too much of a combo guard for my liking.

Beasley will score and rebound no matter what the situation, on D he needs to work harder but he has all the tools to be a dominant defender. Both are great prospects but Beasley is better and a more unique talent.

[sweetness34]

And you're letting their current status as NBA players affect your judgment as prospects. WTF, obviously NBA teams thought they were talented enough to go in the top 5. Chris Paul didn't have a shot in College, and he still doesn't have much of one right now. He's great for his court vision, his athleticism and speed, his defense and his passing.

Conley and Felton have the athleticism that's needed and both are very good off the dribble, how the hell is that much of a reach.

Chris Paul doesn't have much of a shot? Since when? Have we watched the same player this year? You don't average what he does per game if you can't shoot. I watched him kill my Bulls this year from the outside.

Felton does not have that much athleticism dude. He's cat quick with a great first step and he has very good handles, but he's not that athletic. Neither has anywhere near the vision Chris Paul does, neither is anywhere near the defender Paul is, neither has the court awareness Paul does...Should I keep going or just stop now?

Conley and Felton have ZERO chance to be as good as Chris Paul. And it's an insult to CP3 even trying to compare him to those players.

[Sportsfan486]

That doesn't mean he's a freakin' "scorer." Nash is a point guard....A shooting guard or small forward is classified as a scorer.

I meant scorer as in.. scores.. a lot.. of points.. .. not as in position. You need to score a lot to win MVP.. Nash was, I admit, an exception to that in only scoring well and winning MVP. But those were also weak years for elite performances and people were in love with the Suns and their style of play at that time.

Oh and #4, I apologize. I didn't think 3 sounded right but I forgot Horford.

I was also using the MVP arguement in the first place to say I thought Beasley has the potential to be a huge superstar type whereas I think Rose will more quietly be great. Does that affect draft position? A little, yeah.

[yo123]

No one's talking about Rose's height he was saying if Paul had Rose's size he'd be twice the prospect.

My issue with Rose is that he is significantly worse shooting from the perimeter and is a sloppy decisionmaker in half court sets. On the run he's incredible, but in a halfcourt set he's less dominant. Plus I think that if you built a team around Rose he'd be too much of a combo guard for my liking.

Beasley will score and rebound no matter what the situation, on D he needs to work harder but he has all the tools to be a dominant defender. Both are great prospects but Beasley is better and a more unique talent.


Is Paul as tall as Rose? No. Discussion over. Lets put that "argument" to rest.

So he's not a great three point shooter, he's still got a killer mid range game. Monta Ellis can't shoot a three to save his life, and he's still nasty.

Decision making is a very coachable talent. Look at Jason Williams, he turned over the ball a ridiculous amount early in his career. A couple yeras ago he led the league in A/TO ratio. He still sucks, but not in that aspect.

Rose a combo guard? You're kidding. He's a great distributer with outstanding court vision. He is a PG and a PG only.

[Flyboy]

CP3 doesn't have a shot? ...

...

LOL. That was gold.

Here's something interesting on D-Rose... DraftExpress.com's profile of him...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Derrick-Rose-1068/

Now, it's all subjective but at WORST he's projected to be as good as Devin Harris. Think about that for a second.

[sweetness34]

No one's talking about Rose's height he was saying if Paul had Rose's size he'd be twice the prospect.

My issue with Rose is that he is significantly worse shooting from the perimeter and is a sloppy decisionmaker in half court sets. On the run he's incredible, but in a halfcourt set he's less dominant. Plus I think that if you built a team around Rose he'd be too much of a combo guard for my liking.

Beasley will score and rebound no matter what the situation, on D he needs to work harder but he has all the tools to be a dominant defender. Both are great prospects but Beasley is better and a more unique talent.

Sloppy decision making in half court sets? One of Derrick's best assets is that he is a very good decision maker with the basketball. Again the only things he needs to work on really is his outside shot and his defense, both of which have come along this year. His shot looked great in the tournament and so did his defense.

[wingboy2999]

Man... I LOVE heated debates like this.

[sweetness34]

CP3 doesn't have a shot? ...

...

LOL. That was gold.

Here's something interesting on D-Rose... DraftExpress.com's profile of him...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Derrick-Rose-1068/

Now, it's all subjective but at WORST he's projected to be as good as Devin Harris. Think about that for a second.

Which will never happen. Derrick is pretty much a lock to be a top tier PG in his tenure in the NBA. Just as Beasley will put up big time numbers in the pros.

I'll put it this way, Derrick being amazing is about as much of a lock to happen as LeBron becoming a star in the NBA.

[yo123]

I meant scorer as in.. scores.. a lot.. of points.. .. not as in position. You need to score a lot to win MVP.. Nash was, I admit, an exception to that in only scoring well and winning MVP. But those were also weak years for elite performances and people were in love with the Suns and their style of play at that time.

Oh and #4, I apologize. I didn't think 3 sounded right but I forgot Horford.

I was also using the MVP arguement in the first place to say I thought Beasley has the potential to be a huge superstar type whereas I think Rose will more quietly be great. Does that affect draft position? A little, yeah.


The years that Nash won were not weak years. Shaq was DOMINANT that year and Nash won over him. Kobe averaged 35 ******* points in '06 and Nash won. The MVP goes to the player with the biggest impact, not the most points.

[sweetness34]

Will Derrick be as good as Paul or Williams? I think he'll be right there with them in a year or two. All 3 are different types of players. Deron is more of a scoring PG that uses his court awareness and size to his advantage, CP3 uses his vision and his playmaking ability, and Derrick will uses his explosiveness and playmaking ability.

[wingboy2999]

CP3 doesn't have a shot? ...

...

LOL. That was gold.

Here's something interesting on D-Rose... DraftExpress.com's profile of him...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Derrick-Rose-1068/

Now, it's all subjective but at WORST he's projected to be as good as Devin Harris. Think about that for a second.

I'd be more inclined to say it isn't his greatest strength. Not as consistent as it should be is much closer to no shot at all.

I was going to bring up that comparison. It's kinda hard to compare him to anyone as a worst case. He has power and quickness. Billups has power but nowhere near as much quickness. Harris has quickness but no power. And Billups is a better shooter then everyone.

That got out of control... whoops. But it definitely is hard to classify him with current PGs.

[MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)]

Beasley is a tweener. Yes, he could be a big man, but I don't see him as the type of big man that teams look to for championships. He's less of a post scorer IMO, he'll use more of a jumpshot and dribble drive game until he can develop some better moves. As of right now, he's just a big wing player. A very good one at that, though. But there are tons of wing guys in the NBA right now. And something that is very rare is the dominant point guard. Rose has more potential to be a dominant PG than Beasley does to be a dominant post player IMO.

[Sportsfan486]

Which will never happen. Derrick is pretty much a lock to be a top tier PG in his tenure in the NBA. Just as Beasley will put up big time numbers in the pros.

I'll put it this way, Derrick being amazing is about as much of a lock to happen as LeBron becoming a star in the NBA.

You act like Rose has dominated college basketball. He wasn't that spectacular. Was he even an all-american? 3rd team, maybe?

If the dude is SO GREAT, why didn't he dominate? I'm confused.

[wingboy2999]

Beasley is a tweener. Yes, he could be a big man, but I don't see him as the type of big man that teams look to for championships. He's less of a post scorer IMO, he'll use more of a jumpshot and dribble drive game until he can develop some better moves. As of right now, he's just a big wing player. A very good one at that, though. But there are tons of wing guys in the NBA right now. And something that is very rare is the dominant point guard. Rose has more potential to be a dominant PG than Beasley does to be a dominant post player IMO.

EXACTLY WHAT EVERYONE HAS BEEN TRYING TO SAY.

There really are more "good" wing players then there are "good" PGs. This is hard to dispute.

[yo123]

You act like Rose has dominated college basketball. He wasn't that spectacular. Was he even an all-american? 3rd team, maybe?

If the dude is SO GREAT, why didn't he dominate? I'm confused.


He didn't look for his shot nearly as much as he should of at times this year, and deferred to CDR a lot. Again, put him on a team with no talent, like K-State, and give him Beasley's 25 shots a game and he's first team all america.

[BamaFalcon59]

I'll take Beasley. I know what he gives me. He will be a star. He will score. He will win games. He will rebound. He will block shots.

I like Rose as a prospect. But I'm not sure what his calling card will be in the NBA. I do not think he has the mentality of a scorer or a passer. He gos on and off. Not sure I ever see him scoring in the upper 20s, or assisting in the 12s and up. But I see him being a 20-22 points and 10 assists guy, which is still very good.

[wingboy2999]

You act like Rose has dominated college basketball. He wasn't that spectacular. Was he even an all-american? 3rd team, maybe?

If the dude is SO GREAT, why didn't he dominate? I'm confused.

If he were in a different system he'd rack up the stats. The dribble drive offense makes it hard to get assists. It's all about getting the ball and driving, playing one on one thus negating chances for assists. 4.7 assists is pretty good considering. 14.7 is good for a PG on this quality of a team as well.

[BamaFalcon59]

The years that Nash won were not weak years. Shaq was DOMINANT that year and Nash won over him. Kobe averaged 35 ******* points in '06 and Nash won. The MVP goes to the player with the biggest impact, not the most points.

Most important player on a top team. Otherwise LeBron James would win it this year.

[wingboy2999]

I'll take Beasley. I know what he gives me. He will be a star. He will score. He will win games. He will rebound. He will block shots.

I like Rose as a prospect. But I'm not sure what his calling card will be in the NBA. I do not think he has the mentality of a scorer or a passer. He gos on and off. Not sure I ever see him scoring in the upper 20s, or assisting in the 12s and up. But I see him being a 20-22 points and 10 assists guy, which is still very good.

Assisting in the 12+ range is nuts either way. So that is pretty hard to live up to. 20 and 10 is very rare and an amazing feat in and of itself. Paul is going to be the first one in awhile to do it. Tim Hardaway was the last one to do it I believe.

[sweetness34]

My personal preference is Rose, but I can't fault anyone for choosing Beasley with the numbers he put up this year.

What's making me scratch my head is calling Felton and Conley elite PG prospects....Felton like yo has said has had 3 years in the NBA and you rarely hear about him, why? Because he's not an elite PG prospect. His shot is way too inconsistent, he doesn't play very good defense, and his decision making is suspect.

I really like Conley but again, he's undersized, he'll struggle against bigger guards, and his shot is very inconsistent. He has more of a chance to be great though than Felton.

Rose deferred to CDR, Anderson, Kemp, Dozier, Dorsey, and Taggert a lot this year, that's why his stats weren't eye popping. He was a freshman that didn't want to intrude on what they had back from last year. So he played maestro. But in the tournament he turned his game up and took a larger role in making plays which made Memphis a better team.

Beasley on the other hand was the man on KSU. They deferred to him as often as they could and he took a lot of shots every game. But a lot of the time he hurt his team by trying to take over instead of letting the game come to him.

I'm a believer that an elite PG can take you further than an elite big man because;

A) He handles the ball more

B) A great PG can make an average forward look good because he can get him open looks

C) The NBA game is guard driven, and without good guard play or a good PG, you will struggle (the Bulls had Gooden who was dynamite down low yet they still sucked, why? Because we had no PG this season)

D) I think PG's are more valuable than forwards are and they are a lot harder to find

[yo123]

Most important player on a top team. Otherwise LeBron James would win it this year.


Being the most important player on a top team would mean you have a big impact.

[BamaFalcon59]

Being the most important player on a top team would mean you have a big impact.

The Cavaliers would be as bad as the Miami Heat with out LeBron James.

[BamaFalcon59]

Assisting in the 12+ range is nuts either way. So that is pretty hard to live up to. 20 and 10 is very rare and an amazing feat in and of itself. Paul is going to be the first one in awhile to do it. Tim Hardaway was the last one to do it I believe.

Maybe I exaggerated the passing. Maybe nine assists, I'm not sure. But the point is I do not see him dominating as a scorer or an assist man, rather a good combination of both.

[yo123]

The Cavaliers would be as bad as the Miami Heat with out LeBron James.


No. The Miami Heat are a whole new level of bad that may never be seen again.

[MetSox17]

My personal preference is Rose, but I can't fault anyone for choosing Beasley with the numbers he put up this year.

What's making me scratch my head is calling Felton and Conley elite PG prospects....Felton like yo has said has had 3 years in the NBA and you rarely hear about him, why? Because he's not an elite PG prospect. His shot is way too inconsistent, he doesn't play very good defense, and his decision making is suspect.

I really like Conley but again, he's undersized, he'll struggle against bigger guards, and his shot is very inconsistent. He has more of a chance to be great though than Felton.

Rose deferred to CDR, Anderson, Kemp, Dozier, Dorsey, and Taggert a lot this year, that's why his stats weren't eye popping. He was a freshman that didn't want to intrude on what they had back from last year. So he played maestro. But in the tournament he turned his game up and took a larger role in making plays which made Memphis a better team.

Beasley on the other hand was the man on KSU. They deferred to him as often as they could and he took a lot of shots every game. But a lot of the time he hurt his team by trying to take over instead of letting the game come to him.

I'm a believer that an elite PG can take you further than an elite big man because;

A) He handles the ball more

B) A great PG can make an average forward look good because he can get him open looks

C) The NBA game is guard driven, and without good guard play or a good PG, you will struggle (the Bulls had Gooden who was dynamite down low yet they still sucked, why? Because we had no PG this season)

D) I think PG's are more valuable than forwards are and they are a lot harder to find

I'm trying to make the argument that coming out he was an elite prospect. He made the National Championship team go, along with Sean May.
When he came out i had no doubt he could develop into a great PG, but again, you're using his current NBA status to try and debunk the fact that he initially was a good prospect, as was DaJuan Wagner who was probably an even better prospect than Rose is now.

And you knock on Felton for having poor decision making, i've seen Rose time after time jump to make passes and before he decides what to do when driving into the lane. He'll penetrate and jump as if he were going to go up and expect his man to jump with him. He's horrible at that, if you jump to pass the ball your coach will eat you up, and he does that a lot. Can you fix that, yes, of course you can, but it's not any less of a knock than what you're trying to argue against Felton.

[wingboy2999]

Maybe I exaggerated the passing. Maybe nine assists, I'm not sure. But the point is I do not see him dominating as a scorer or an assist man, rather a good combination of both.

Yeah, 20 and 10 is a big deal. 17 and 10 or something like that may be closer but you never know. I like Rose.

[sweetness34]

Rose brought his game to another level in the Tournament. With a team loaded with talent, he averaged around 20ppg and 7 assists. And as his numbers increased, his teams play got better.

[sweetness34]

Yeah, 20 and 10 is a big deal. 17 and 10 or something like that may be closer but you never know. I like Rose.

Deron was close to 20 and 10 this year, I do know that. Pretty amazing feat by a player though. Both Paul and Deron will accomplish that stat though next year which will be pretty cool to see.

[yo123]

I'm trying to make the argument that coming out he was an elite prospect. He made the National Championship team go, along with Sean May.
When he came out i had no doubt he could develop into a great PG, but again, you're using his current NBA status to try and debunk the fact that he initially was a good prospect, as was DaJuan Wagner who was probably an even better prospect than Rose is now.

And you knock on Felton for having poor decision making, i've seen Rose time after time jump to make passes and before he decides what to do when driving into the lane. He'll penetrate and jump as if he were going to go up and expect his man to jump with him. He's horrible at that, if you jump to pass the ball your coach will eat you up, and he does that a lot. Can you fix that, yes, of course you can, but it's not any less of a knock than what you're trying to argue against Felton.



Dude, quit with the DaJuan Wagner stuff. He was a scorer, that's it. Completely one dimensional. He was nowhere near Rose.

[sweetness34]

I'm trying to make the argument that coming out he was an elite prospect. He made the National Championship team go, along with Sean May.
When he came out i had no doubt he could develop into a great PG, but again, you're using his current NBA status to try and debunk the fact that he initially was a good prospect, as was DaJuan Wagner who was probably an even better prospect than Rose is now.

And you knock on Felton for having poor decision making, i've seen Rose time after time jump to make passes and before he decides what to do when driving into the lane. He'll penetrate and jump as if he were going to go up and expect his man to jump with him. He's horrible at that, if you jump to pass the ball your coach will eat you up, and he does that a lot. Can you fix that, yes, of course you can, but it's not any less of a knock than what you're trying to argue against Felton.

Rose is a freshman in college. Of course he's going to do some stupid things. Felton is 3 years into the NBA (6 years older than Derrick) and I see the same things he was doing at UNC.

What I like about Derrick is that he has the ability to either take over by scoring, or take over by dishing out assists. In the tournament he was more focused on scoring, during the season he focused on getting his teammates involved.

Derrick needs to have the ball in his hands, that's the one knock I have on him right now. He's not very effective without the ball. He doesn't make a lot of off the ball cuts to the basket, he won't move around to try and free himself up, etc...But that will come with more experience. Deron was the same way early in his career at Illinois and look where he is now.

[sweetness34]

Wagner was nowhere near an "elite PG" prospect. I remember a lot of hype about him as a scorer but the knock was that he didn't have a lot of PG skills.

Good player though before he got hurt.

[LonghornsLegend]

Funny how you always like to pick on my opinions only.
But anyway, i've heard it being mentioned many many times and many different occasions that big men aren't shoe sellers. It only makes sense.

Why is it that Carmelo and Lebron have had their own shoe the second they went into the league, but it took Kevin Garnett so long? His shoes don't sell anywhere near where the Nike's do. Nike doesn't give any big guys their own shoe, it's pretty safe to assume that the reason they don't is because they wouldn't make as much money as they would focusing their marketing on guards that can score and dunk


I pick quotes that baffle me, or that I disagree with, its not a big deal its a message board thats what good debate is for, not like I have a problem with you so dont make it out to seem like it is...


Regardless I dont see what Carmelo, Lebron, and Garnett have to do with the fact that you think Durant was marketable and Beasley wasnt...Oden is the marketable guy, he's funny, always smiling, doesnt mind the attention, Durant shys away from it, doesnt love to be in front of the cameras, isnt always making jokes, other then basketball skill he's not very marketable at all...Beasley has much more of a personality then Durant does, have you ever even heard Durant speak in one of his commercials? Its his game that gets his contracts.

[LonghornsLegend]

Derrick needs to have the ball in his hands, that's the one knock I have on him right now. He's not very effective without the ball. He doesn't make a lot of off the ball cuts to the basket, he won't move around to try and free himself up, etc...But that will come with more experience. Deron was the same way early in his career at Illinois and look where he is now.

Exactly right about Deron, I used to watch him play against us during high school when he was playing for The Colony, and it was Bracey Wright who was the scoring machine and Deron was the guy getting everyone involved, being a great passer and a great defender but he never had a scorers mentality back then...But now he has the same passing ability as before but he has a scorers mentality where he can take over if he wants to and I love that about his game now...I see the same things with Rose, he's a great scorer for a PG when he needs to be but he really is a pass first guy unless he's really feeling it, then he wants to take the shots.

[soybean]

My personal preference is Rose, but I can't fault anyone for choosing Beasley with the numbers he put up this year.

I'm a believer that an elite PG can take you further than an elite big man because;

A) He handles the ball more

B) A great PG can make an average forward look good because he can get him open looks

C) The NBA game is guard driven, and without good guard play or a good PG, you will struggle (the Bulls had Gooden who was dynamite down low yet they still sucked, why? Because we had no PG this season)

D) I think PG's are more valuable than forwards are and they are a lot harder to find


while i agree with you that an elite pg is more important than an elite sf. i'd disagree if you're comparing smalls to bigs.

when was the last time that a point guard was the reason a team won the nba finals. (not including the pistons in 04)

I'm not being stubborn they were actually discussing this during one of the games.

[sweetness34]

while i agree with you that an elite pg is more important than an elite sf. i'd disagree if you're comparing smalls to bigs.

when was the last time that a point guard was the reason a team won the nba finals. (not including the pistons in 04)

I'm not being stubborn they were actually discussing this during one of the games.

Tony Parker with the Spurs. Dwayne Wade is a combo guard although J-Will was their "PG" at the time but Dwayne did a lot of creating for that team.

[sweetness34]

New Orleans biggest reason for a turnaround is the play of Chris Paul. Utah's reason for their big turnaround last year and their run in the playoffs was Deron Williams. Baron Davis really made the Warriors go in the post season last year. The Cavs don't count because LeBron is ridiculous. The Suns went to another level as a team when Nash came in.

While I agree that you need other parts, the most important position for me is a guy who can distribute and get his teammates involved. Now players like Bryant and McGrady who can do everything on the court I discard but for the most part, a team goes as it's PG goes. Hence why the Bulls sucked this season. Kirk was horrid.

[MetSox17]

I pick quotes that baffle me, or that I disagree with, its not a big deal its a message board thats what good debate is for, not like I have a problem with you so dont make it out to seem like it is...


Regardless I dont see what Carmelo, Lebron, and Garnett have to do with the fact that you think Durant was marketable and Beasley wasnt...Oden is the marketable guy, he's funny, always smiling, doesnt mind the attention, Durant shys away from it, doesnt love to be in front of the cameras, isnt always making jokes, other then basketball skill he's not very marketable at all...Beasley has much more of a personality then Durant does, have you ever even heard Durant speak in one of his commercials? Its his game that gets his contracts.

As far as their style of play, that's what im referring to. Lebron and 'Melo have tattoos, dunk and score the ball at will, and make the highlight reels. Personality doesn't sell shoes. Style of play and image are what sell shoes and that's why i said Nike would be all over Rose. Oden makes the commercials but he just doesn't fit the demographic that the big shoe companies have.

[sweetness34]

Personality doesn't sell shoes? Really...Hmm I disagree, a player has to be marketable for their product to sell. That's why James, Wade, Jordan, etc succeed. And it's why Carmelo won't do as well.

Oden is more marketable than Durant is though because of his personality. Oden is more outgoing while Durant is more shy and laid back.

[wingboy2999]

New Orleans biggest reason for a turnaround is the play of Chris Paul. Utah's reason for their big turnaround last year and their run in the playoffs was Deron Williams. Baron Davis really made the Warriors go in the post season last year. The Cavs don't count because LeBron is ridiculous. The Suns went to another level as a team when Nash came in.

While I agree that you need other parts, the most important position for me is a guy who can distribute and get his teammates involved. Now players like Bryant and McGrady who can do everything on the court I discard but for the most part, a team goes as it's PG goes. Hence why the Bulls sucked this season. Kirk was horrid.

While all the other guys on the Pistons are good... it is Billups who is the MVP. On our team with 60 something wins, it was Billups who was an MVP candidate. And this was when he wasn't even head and shoulders above the rest of the team statistically. He was just.... good.

[sweetness34]

While all the other guys on the Pistons are good... it is Billups who is the MVP. On our team with 60 something wins, it was Billups who was an MVP candidate. And this was when he wasn't even head and shoulders above the rest of the team statistically. He was just.... good.

Yea Billups too. Like I said, a team goes as it's PG, or primary ball handler goes.

[wingboy2999]

Sometimes PGs are not as easy to quantify if they aren't putting up gaudy numbers. As with someone like Kidd, his passing skill can make passing contagious and fun for the rest of the team. That can't be put into stats. That is just one example.

[MetSox17]

Personality doesn't sell shoes? Really...Hmm I disagree, a player has to be marketable for their product to sell. That's why James, Wade, Jordan, etc succeed. And it's why Carmelo won't do as well.

Oden is more marketable than Durant is though because of his personality. Oden is more outgoing while Durant is more shy and laid back.

If Carmelo didn't sell shoes, Jordan wouldn't have taken him as his pet project and kept pumping out custom shoes. Before Lebron blew up marketing wise, his shoe was flying off the racks because people liked the way he played and dunked. Wade, James and Oden show their personalities in all their other commercials, but do you think it's a big coincidence that there's hardly any shoe commercials that depict these guys as a bunch of jokesters? They're always serious and that's how Durant is. His stuff is gonna sell a lot more than Oden's, as far as shoes and apparel.

[sweetness34]

And that's why I don't like when people use the stat argument with Beasley and Rose. I've watched both of them many times this year, and I saw Rose a lot in High School. Beasley puts up huge numbers, no doubt but in putting up those numbers he takes his teammates out of the game and that's why you saw losses by them this year. If he could develop his passing out of the double he would be just incredible.

Rose brings a lot of intangibles to the game. He's a good decision maker, he usually has good court awareness, he's always been a leader, and he has a good feel for when to defer and when to take over.

An example of that would be the game last night when in the first half he deferred and his team was down, in the second half he realized his team needed him so he started to take over and want the ball more. That's what I love about his game.

[sweetness34]

If Carmelo didn't sell shoes, Jordan wouldn't have taken him as his pet project and kept pumping out custom shoes. Before Lebron blew up marketing wise, his shoe was flying off the racks because people liked the way he played and dunked. Wade, James and Oden show their personalities in all their other commercials, but do you think it's a big coincidence that there's hardly any shoe commercials that depict these guys as a bunch of jokesters? They're always serious and that's how Durant is. His stuff is gonna sell a lot more than Oden's, as far as shoes and apparel.

I never said he couldn't sell shoes. I said he's isn't as marketable as LeBron, Wade, or Jordan.

[MetSox17]

I never said he couldn't sell shoes. I said he's isn't as marketable as LeBron, Wade, or Jordan.

Yeah, i agree that he doesn't get the bubble gum and t-mobile commercials, but that's not the argument i was making. I was strictly talking about shoe companies

[soybean]

While all the other guys on the Pistons are good... it is Billups who is the MVP. On our team with 60 something wins, it was Billups who was an MVP candidate. And this was when he wasn't even head and shoulders above the rest of the team statistically. He was just.... good.

billups is no question a top 10 pg, but the pistons had/have an overall good team. I acutally think the biggest reason for the piston's success is believe it or not, sheed.

the point im trying to make is the game is played from the inside out.

[sweetness34]

LeBron was already taken I believe by Nike as their "poster boy" and Wade was taken up by Addidas. Carmelo is a sell able guy but not as much as others because of their personalities. I can't see Carmelo doing the T-Mobile commericals Wade does of the Nike commercials (with the multiple characters) LeBron does.

[sweetness34]

billups is no question a top 10 pg, but the pistons had/have an overall good team. I acutally think the biggest reason for the piston's success is believe it or not, sheed.

the point im trying to make is the game is played from the inside out.

Well "inside/out" doesn't always involve the inside game. Drive and kick is huge right now in the NBA.

[wingboy2999]

billups is no question a top 10 pg, but the pistons had/have an overall good team. I acutally think the biggest reason for the piston's success is believe it or not, sheed.

the point im trying to make is the game is played from the inside out.

Playoffs... I'd say yes. But not the regular season. Sheed doesn't care too much about the regular season and you can see it in his stats. No way someone with his talent should be averaging 13 and 7 or whatever he has. As Barkley said... if he had the brain of a Larry Bird, Magic Johnson or Michael Jordan he'd hands down the best player in the NBA. He is a very good shooter from the outside and his fallaway jumper is unblockable. And he is a great defender. If he had the killer instinct, he'd be the best player in the NBA. But that is another matter.

[wingboy2999]

LeBron was already taken I believe by Nike as their "poster boy" and Wade was taken up by Addidas. Carmelo is a sell able guy but not as much as others because of their personalities. I can't see Carmelo doing the T-Mobile commericals Wade does of the Nike commercials (with the multiple characters) LeBron does.

He's actually Converse. I guess Garnett is the #1 guy for Adidas now. Him or TMac.

[sweetness34]

He's actually Converse. I guess Garnett is the #1 guy for Adidas now. Him or TMac.

I thought Wade was Addidas...Well ****. That's right, TMac has that locked down.

[BuddyCHRIST]

Wade is Converse, anyways I would go with Rose at this point mainly just because PG is a more important position and Rose is a rarer prospect. Beasley is great and depending on the team I might even lean towards him but he's a little stuck between the 3 and the 4, but depending on the offense he could play in either. I also don't ever see Beasley being a stand out defender, he's very gifted offensively though. My main reason for Rose though is he just seems to have the It factor, it was tough to see at times in Memphis offense because he didn't get to dictate the ball as much as he will in the pro's but he has an uncanny feel for the game and can really take over and create his own shot. Not to mention he's an excellent defender and his physical skills are rarely seen at the PG position, Beasley type players are rare but there is alot of great athletes at the 3/4 positions, Rose will be able to athletically dominate most PG's not to mention his wide array of skills.

With that said alot depends on who is taking the pick and how the teams wants to go. If I was Miami I would take Beasley as Wade will be the main ball handler regardless, but if they wanted to take pressure off Wade as a creator and let him go back to being more of a scorer I could see that as well. If I was Seattle or Minnesota though I would definitely lean towards Rose as they lack great ball handlers and have young wing players.

[thetedginnshow]

Alright. I'll look at this semi-chronologically from when I last posted oh... six pages ago...

I love how people overlook Bill Walker on KSU whenever they say that there was no one on that team. I can say that Bill Walker would carry the team at times as well, a great example was the USC game where Walker dominated the Trojans.

By saying that Walker would carry the team at times, that would imply that he did it more than once. If you'd like to look back at their season, I'd be happy for you to show me another game where Walker carried the team. As for the USC game, Walker didn't carry them the whole way through, and he got all of his points while the box-and-one was being implemented on Beasley leaving Walker either wide open or one-on-one with no help even close. To me, that's just doing what a player should be doing. I mean, hell, if you're open, even if it's collegiate basketball, I don't see why you can't make it 9 times out of 10. It was a great performance, but I'd hardly say that's "carrying" the team. Of course, some of it did come when Beasley wasn't on the floor, so he does get his credit. But he was playing his former teammate. I don't know. I still don't think that justifies that sort of label, but rather an emotional (positive) outburst.

For those that are quick to jump on people for believing they've only seen Rose in the tourney... well, really? I realize some have seem him in HS and all that, but that's obviously not the same level of competition. If we're looking at the regular season, the games in which Rose performed well against good opponents (there were several where he didn't play so well) were Gonzaga and Tennessee. So then if your opinion has nothing to do with his tournament play and his potential, you're telling me that you either 1) actually only saw the Tennessee game, but that's enough, 2) saw both games and that's enough, 3) saw all of their games against good opponents, and saw enough to impress you despite bad performances, or 4) are counting games in which the entire Memphis team was far and away better than their opponent. That's a little shaky IMO. And, in terms of actually seeing a lot of his games, well, not a lot of Memphis's conference games were even nationally broadcasted unless the games by chance got close. Even so, I have a hard time putting a lot of stock in those games against incredibly lesser opponents.

As for whomever said there's been less buzz around Beasley than Durant... I'd probably have to disagree. Despite what Durant was doing, there was without question more talk about Oden. Durant got his fair share, but people weren't talking about him as much. If you're talking about hype, Durant certainly had a better case as most were projecting him to a T-Mac or Dirk freak, while Beasley has been getting Derrick Coleman for the most part. And not to mention the larger media market in which Durant played in. However, there's more videos, articles, and intrigue around Beasley, partially because of his greater form of dominance and partially because his only competition for the #1 draft spot had been relatively quiet throughout the season.

As for the "big men win championships" argument, just reiterating, but Beasley isn't a traditional Big. True Centers (Duncan included) are what generally win championships with the exception of teams that play terrific team ball.

With the "elite SFs are more common than elite PGs" issue... well, I'd disagree. By my count, in the past 7 years, there were 5 "great" (using the word relatively loosely) SF prospects (Durant, M. Williams, Lebron, Melo, and Dunleavy) and 3 PGs (Paul, Livingston, and J. Williams). That's kind of close IMO, and actually, if you were to truly consider Lebron as the next Magic as he was hyped up to be, you could even go 4-4. Some of the names people were throwing out there like Deron, Hinrich, Harris, Iguodala, and Howard weren't considered back then to have outstanding potential (Hinrich was rated fairly highly actually along with Ford, but meh). Now if you'd like to look at which PGs and SFs panned out, certainly more SFs (And hell, even PFs) have been more successful than PGs because they're easier positions to transition into so long as you have athleticism. As for PGs, it's more or less a crap shoot since there's more factors that go into that. So yeah, if you'd like to bet on your chances of finding a great SF or a great PG in the draft, the SF is more likely, but it's not necessarily the case that it's because they're at the top of the draft for the taking.

To the guys talking about marketability... It's true that Big's are big shoe sellers, but hey, again, Beasley isn't a Big. Centers don't sell shoes well. How's KG doing? And actually, marketability is a combination of personality and safety. If we want to go back to their first few years in the league, Melo easily got a greater amount of commercials in comparison to Wade. Wade's popularity really blossomed once he won the championship. It's not like Melo is a log. He's got a good personality and it's questionable if Wade's is better (or that much better). As for LeBron, going from the most hyped player ever entering into the league to arguably the best in the league? That's been an easy road, and it doesn't necessarily have all to do with personality. With Durant, before the majority knew of Beasley, his numbers were thought to never be able to be duplicated at the collegiate level, and that combined with him being a safe choice personality/character-wise, it's an easy pick-up for Nike. Rose has a terrible personality, but because of the hype and the safety, he'll get his. We'll see about Beasley. However, Beasley has a terrific personality, so I could see commercials coming easily to him (and I definitely could see a Durant/Beasley one in the future).

I don't know if a lot of things the Mets guy and Sportsfan were saying was actually serious, but just to point something out... no, Raymond Felton does not have the potential to be Chris Paul. Not even close. And the MVP argument is just stupid. Unless there's a clear-cut guy, it rarely goes to the right person, so it's pointless to use it as a basis for any argument. But no, "scorers" don't win MVPs - impressive team leaders in situations for hype on successful teams do. Also, DeJuan Wagner was the epitome of a combo guard. He very rarely passed it and showed no desire to. He was a very, very questionable prospect because of his lack of height or speed, and he wasn't even a solid prospect as a PG.

He didn't look for his shot nearly as much as he should of at times this year, and deferred to CDR a lot. Again, put him on a team with no talent, like K-State, and give him Beasley's 25 shots a game and he's first team all america.

I never understood this argument. If Rose was on a team... say, the Wildcats, in place of Beasley, either the offense would be led by Walker or defenses would be geared to against Rose. The one time a team actually threw a defense at Rose specifically to guard against what he did best, he wasn't able to combat it. And if he was so into deferring while taking smart shots within his place in the offense, his shooting percentage would probably be a little bit higher. But wait! Rose shot more difficult shots! No, not really, unless he purposely made them that way. He only shot 9 more 3-pointers than Beasley and, crazy as it sounds, most of his baskets were variations on lay-up's which happen to be from close range. If we want to say that his assist numbers would have been off the charts... well, let's remember three things. First you could say, "Memphis didn't have that good of shooters." Surprise! K-State shot 31.7% from beyond the arc (with Beasley being their best) and they attempted 662 3's. Memphis on the other hand shot 34.9% from 3 with 865 attempts (oh and Rose was 5th best percentage-wise). Second, you could say that Rose matured throughout the year, so by year's end he was much better. Well, do you think he would have matured as well under Frank Martin? People may dislike Calipari, but Martin isn't even close to being in his league. Lastly, you could probably say that in dribble-drive offense it took away from Rose those great assist numbers. Well, that's respectable. But of course, wouldn't his AST/TO ratio have been better than it was? If he's such a superb decision-maker, regardless of how it's happening, he shouldn't be turning the ball over at such a rate. It certainly got better by year's end, but if he's the next great PG, wise beyond his years, it should have come from the start. Of all the great PGs in the league today, only Chauncey Billups had as bad of an AST/TO ratio as Rose, and it took Billups years to develop.

Beasley is a mediocre defender, doesn't have very good passing skills right now, and like you said has attitude problems. Derrick's deficiencies are his defense (which has improved immensely) and his outside shooting which has improved as well.

That's very one-sided. First of all, Beasley does have good passing skills. Derrick Rose himself has said that (one funny thing about this class over all others is that the top players all seem to know each other's skill sets ridiculously well). There's two issues with his ability to showcase his passing talent. One would be the fact that he actually did make some terrific passes during the course of the season, however, his teammates missed shots, so nothing came of it. The other would be that when Beasley has the ball, a lot of the players had a tendency to stand around in awe. In the USC game, Beasley made an excellent pass to a cutting Kent because, hey, he actually moved. Beasley found open guys on many occasions, but they had a tendency to mess things up.

As for the defense, I assume you haven't watched Beasley all the way through, but his defense has improved tremendously throughout. One thing that can be credited to Martin is forcing Beasley to play man defense that made him much better than he used to be. His biggest issues in man defense came against team's larger Centers (because technically, that's what he played for the 'Cats). He was a terrific help defender, almost to a fault, since people tended to never help and pick up his man. He happened to pick up some careless fouls in games, but nothing Rose didn't do.

And forgets he has teammates on the floor. Granted his supporting cast wasn't great but Beasley needs to learn that he can't do everything by himself. In the NBA he can't shoot it every time he gets the basketball.

Rose makes guys around him better and he took Memphis to another level as a team.

Again if I'm starting a basketball team from scratch, I take Rose.

Well for one, Beasley didn't shoot every time he got the ball. He passed it up quite frequently. In some cases, he should have looked to take his man off the dribble rather than swinging it, but hey, I guess you can't blame him for following the plays. He took open shots, however, if that's an issue. A big issue with that team is that beyond Walker, Kent, and Pullen, none of the supporting cast could pass. Young and Stewart were two of the more worthless Senior guards I have ever witnessed get that much playing time. And on those occasions Walker was cold, he continued to shoot, which also put a damper on things. If you watched most of Beasley's games, a lot his points came on putbacks, offensive rebounds, and open looks from Pullen. I won't say he never forced the issue, but I don't know how you could no one else in all of college basketball has either.

Now if we're talking about taking Memphis to another level during the tournament, well, I'd have to disagree. They almost lost to Miss. St. which had the athleticism to match up with them (what they got away with using in every game but the Tennessee one), but since the Bulldogs lacked the skill, they came up a bit short. Pitt was the only team that could have matched them from a skill standpoint as well as athleticism. But since we didn't see that, we were treated to a vastly overmatched Michigan State and Texas. While everyone was busy praising Rose, no one really noticed the fact that Memphis looked like K-State with a relatively better supporting cast. In the games from Miss. St. to Kansas, 56% of Memphis's points came from Rose and CDR. In the toughest games (UCLA and Kansas), 67.9% of Memphis's points came from those two against UCLA and 58.8% of their points came from them against Kansas. That's not too far off of what Walker and Beasley were doing for most of the year. And if you want to look at their teammates, everyone pretty much played on par with what they did during the regular season. Dozier did worse, shooting a terrible percentage for a PF, so if you'd like, we can attribute that to Rose.

In the win against Kansas, Beasley and Walker did 55.9% of the scoring. 64.8% in the loss. But we can look at that loss even more closely. The Jayhawks took a tremendous lead while Martin had Beasley on the bench with a foul. Once he came back, they cut into the lead significantly. This loss certainly didn't have anything to do with him as most of the players were awestruck with the Kansas crowd and most crumbled under pressure, while Beasley continued to dominate. He was one of three players to make a three and the only to make more than one, going 4-7 himself. And oh yeah, he also had 3 blocks and a steal to go along with his 39 points and 11 boards. So, because his supporting cast offered absolutely no help, it's Michael Beasley, and they lost, he didn't get credit for single-handed attempt at a comeback, but eh.

So we won't count the win K-State had against Kansas for Beasley because they caught them off guard. But in the second one, we have his team folding under pressure (and if you look throughout the season, their losses came after they had received hype, as Beasley was the only one able to deal with the pressures of not being able to get your wins through the back door) with a single-handed attempt at a comeback by Beasley through double, sometime triple teams. And for Rose... when it boils down to it, a missed free throw that could have iced the game.

But then comparing Memphis's game against Kansas, people will say, "But wait! We're still forgetting how Rose singlehandedly brought his team back into the game and gave them that lead that they blew away." Well, hold on. I think we're forgetting that the entirety of this outburst by Rose happened while Kansas was playing the box-and-one on CDR, which essentially lets the rest of the offense besides whomever the defense is being implemented on run wild. And, of course, during that time Rose could score at will with an added lob to Dorsey (Which by the way, was almost always there, but rarely used, either being Rose, Calipari or a combination of the two's fault). So that's why he's getting praise in that game? Because hell, Jacob Pullen scored 20 while Beasley was in the box-and-one. I will give Rose that ridiculous two, if we're saying that was all skill.

For now, that's my two cents.

[Shane P. Hallam]

Insightful teddy. I think either one have the skills. Where has Mayo fell to? Definitely 3? What about Love? Gonna be a good top of the draft once again.

[cdub11]

i dont think anyone can go wrong with either but having a solid PG is a must so i went with Rose.

[RoyHall#1]

Insightful teddy. I think either one have the skills. Where has Mayo fell to? Definitely 3? What about Love? Gonna be a good top of the draft once again.

I'd say Mayo is out of the top 10 actually.

[wingboy2999]

That may be one of the longest message board posts ever with not a lot of info to work off of.

[princefielder28]

I'd say Mayo is out of the top 10 actually.

With the way he played the second half of the year Mayo will be a Top 10 pick

[wingboy2999]

With the way he played the second half of the year Mayo will be a Top 10 pick

Let's start a new thread. "OJ Mayo: In or Out of Top 10"

[MetSox17]

Yeah, i don't think Mayo will go very high with all the loaded talent.
I'd take Beasley, Rose, Brook Lopez, and Bayless easily ahead of him, and of course there's gonna be teams stupid enough to take Kevin Love in the top 10, some might rank Eric Gordon and Brandon Rush ahead of him (Mayo), and you know there will be a token European guy no one has ever heard of before and go at the top

[princefielder28]

Yeah, i don't think Mayo will go very high with all the loaded talent.
I'd take Beasley, Rose, Brook Lopez, and Bayless easily ahead of him, and of course there's gonna be teams stupid enough to take Kevin Love in the top 10, some might rank Eric Gordon and Brandon Rush ahead of him (Mayo), and you know there will be a token European guy no one has ever heard of before and go at the top

If someone has Brandon Rush rated ahead of him they are nuts. Rush is already 23 years old while Mayo sits at 19/20 years old. Rush's upside is not quite as high and he isn't the scorer that Mayo is either.

And Eric Gordon? Come on people if you watched him play this year his ball handling is sub par and he is really perimeter oriented. Yes he was able to take it to the rim at points this year but he won't be able to do that in the NBA. Gordon may be one of the more overrated prospects.

[yodapoop]

On a serious note, from Heat fan prespective, I want Rose. Sure Haslem is no Michael Beasley, but he Haslem is alright. If everything goes well, Jason Williams will be selling white chocolate on doorsteps or in some1 else's jersey next year. The Heat need a PG. Wade could shine some more with a great PG. Plus, they are both Chicago guys, already great chemistry. Sure, our frontcourt will still be a division 3 frontcourt, but our backcourt would be awesome. I see the PG position like I see the QB in the NFL, or to a lesser extent SS in the infield of MLB and CF in the outfield of MLB. U don't have a solid one, u ain't gonna be successful. HEAT NEED ROSE!

[Thunder&Lightning]

What the deal on lopez anyway hes ranked #3 on ESPN... I watched some of him during the tourny but couldnt make much of an opinion on him...

[princefielder28]

On a serious note, from Heat fan prespective, I want Rose. Sure Haslem is no Michael Beasley, but he Haslem is alright. If everything goes well, Jason Williams will be selling white chocolate on doorsteps or in some1 else's jersey next year. The Heat need a PG. Wade could shine some more with a great PG. Plus, they are both Chicago guys, already great chemistry. Sure, our frontcourt will still be a division 3 frontcourt, but our backcourt would be awesome. I see the PG position like I see the QB in the NFL, or to a lesser extent SS in the infield of MLB and CF in the outfield of MLB. U don't have a solid one, u ain't gonna be successful. HEAT NEED ROSE!

Rose
D-Wade
Wright
Marion
Haslem

With that as a starting lineup next year they could go to a more upbeat style of play...I'm guessing that Wright will be coming off the bench but if they wanted to they could become the Suns of the East

[princefielder28]

What the deal on lopez anyway hes ranked #3 on ESPN... I watched some of him during the tourny but couldnt make much of an opinion on him...

He's a real good finisher inside and for a big man his frame and build is excellent. he needs to become more assertive defensively on the boards but he is a good shot blocker and has a nice offensive game. Definitely the top big man in the draft

[Thunder&Lightning]

He's a real good finisher inside and for a big man his frame and build is excellent. he needs to become more assertive defensively on the boards but he is a good shot blocker and has a nice offensive game. Definitely the top big man in the draft

Hows he compared/ranked to previous drafts big men?

[MetSox17]

Hows he compared/ranked to previous drafts big men?

He doesn't have the defensive awareness Greg Oden had coming out, but they're kinda similar. Oden of course more athletically gifted

[princefielder28]

Hows he compared/ranked to previous drafts big men?

He's got a better offensive game than Greg Oden did last year but is not the imposing defensive force that Oden was/is.

LaMarcus Aldridge coming out had a better mid range game than Brook does and was similar defensively to Brook.

Andrew Bogut coming out had a good mid range game like Aldridge and an NBA ready body like Lopez. Another good finisher.

Ranking the top big men of the last 4 drafts, counting this one :

1. Greg Oden
2. LaMarcus Aldridge
3. Andrew Bogut
4. Brook Lopez

Putting him in the 4th spot isn't a bad thing because it's good competition. I think he's contributions to the NBA will be very similar to Bogut.

[Michigan]

billups is no question a top 10 pg, but the pistons had/have an overall good team. I acutally think the biggest reason for the piston's success is believe it or not, sheed.


Kinda irrelevant, but it's nice to see someone who thinks exactly the way I do. Rasheed has been the most important player for the Pistons since he came over in 2004. His inside-outside threat opens up the floor for the other players and he is still one of the premier post-defenders in the game.

[jayceheathman]

If the Sonics can get one of the top picks in the lottery then they are going to have a very nice team with tons of potential. You cant got wrong with Kevin Durant + Michael Beasely or Derrick Rose.

[RoyHall#1]

Can't forget Green either.

[jayceheathman]

Can't forget Green either.

Ah, thats right. I forgot about Jeff Green. Thats going to be an awesome team if their horrible record pays off in the lottery again.

[VoteLynnSwan]

with the way the records stand right now... If the Heat were to go with Rose, Beasley would be the best guy available...

I know Beasley can play PF... but he's more of a SF in my eyes... but with him, Durant, and Green on the same team... that's 3 really athletic SFs in one lineup... I'd assume they'd line up like this

PF Beasley
SF Green
SG Durant

that'd be sick

[thetedginnshow]

People are crazy to think Mayo is out of the top ten. His skill set and athleticism has him a cut above nearly everyone in this draft. Plus, in one-on-one workouts, he's going to dominate a lot of people. There's not one guard out there that I don't think he could do better than if put up against them. And, I bet he's going to be one of the best interviews.

With Lopez though, his offensive game isn't as impressive as people make it out to be. Shooting under 50% as a Big isn't that great. And, he doesn't have the rebounding prowess or the defensive presence that Robin has, so I don't particularly like his chances to be all that great. But I do think he'll go relatively high. If Jordan and Thabeet don't come out, he should be a lock for the top five.

[thetedginnshow]

Oh, two things about my big post.

I said Chauncey was the only big-name PG to be as bad as Rose in AST/TO. But that's not true. Baron Davis did as well. Actually, across the board, Baron's numbers are nearly identical to Rose's. Granted, Baron played in the Pac-10, but still. Of course, that team completely revolved around Baron and he was their lifeblood and he did have more flair. And of course, he did stay two years. It was because of the injury, but it also made him a better player.

Also, I forgot to mention the importance of the tournament. Someone else brought up the fact that the tournament shouldn't be so heavily weighted since it's fresh in people's minds. I sort of tend to agree. In the NCAA tournament a lot is predicated on athleticism and mismatches since coaches don't get a lot of time to gameplan against teams. I mean, look at Tyrus Thomas. He looked like a phenom in the tournament and got drafted a little too high. That's not really comparing Rose to him or saying that he could go too high, but just bringing up the fact that strong stretches through the NCAA tournament shouldn't be taken into great consideration. It should mostly be there to re-affirm what was seen during the course of the season, IMO at least. It could show their ability to play well in big games and if they're clutch and what not, but I'd almost always rather look at play against conference opponents. Rose is sort of an exception since he played in C-USA on a ridiculously stacked team, but of course, he didn't dominate in any way, shape, or form, so it's sort of hard to say with him.

[TheGreatEscape]

So what's you guys' take on Thabeet and Jordan? I know Lopez is the highest rated big but I actually like those two more than him because they're way more athletic and have more potential on D.

[MetSox17]

He's got a better offensive game than Greg Oden did last year but is not the imposing defensive force that Oden was/is.

LaMarcus Aldridge coming out had a better mid range game than Brook does and was similar defensively to Brook.

Andrew Bogut coming out had a good mid range game like Aldridge and an NBA ready body like Lopez. Another good finisher.

Ranking the top big men of the last 4 drafts, counting this one :

1. Greg Oden
2. LaMarcus Aldridge
3. Andrew Bogut
4. Brook Lopez

Putting him in the 4th spot isn't a bad thing because it's good competition. I think he's contributions to the NBA will be very similar to Bogut.

No argument with the first two, but i don't think there's any way that Bogut played as good on defense as Brook Lopez does right now. You're right that their offensive game is alike, but i think Lopez is a little more athletic therefore can project to being a better rebounder and shot blocker.
Just a thought.

[princefielder28]

No argument with the first two, but i don't think there's any way that Bogut played as good on defense as Brook Lopez does right now. You're right that their offensive game is alike, but i think Lopez is a little more athletic therefore can project to being a better rebounder and shot blocker.
Just a thought.

Lopez can project to be a better rebound, but I was doing it as a prospect and Lopez is not coming out of school with the same rebounding mentality of Bogut. Lopez could easily go ahead of Bogut too; they're pretty much interchangable

[MetSox17]

Lopez can project to be a better rebound, but I was doing it as a prospect and Lopez is not coming out of school with the same rebounding mentality of Bogut. Lopez could easily go ahead of Bogut too; they're pretty much interchangable

No argument there.

I would have loved to see the twins go back to school (brook was very much ready, but could have improved some, robin is still a 2-3 year project).

Brook could have very easily been in the top 2 next year

[cdub11]

just heard blake griffin has decided to return to OU

[thetedginnshow]

Brook Lopez hardly plays good defense at all. Robin Lopez plays good defense. All Brook ever did was use his size. Bogut, coming out, was by far a better prospect than Lopez or Aldridge. Bogut's athleticism was pretty impressive, actually. He was no Greg Oden, but he wasn't far off from Aldridge, and his game was much more refined. Offensively, Bogut was the best of the four. Aldridge was a close second, but Bogut had a complete game and his passing ability was uncanny. And, even more so than Oden, his rebounding prowess was very impressive. It's difficult to compare everything considering the conference Bogut played in as well as the fact that he mostly faced double and triple teams, but from a skill set standpoint he was pretty high up there. He didn't go #1 overall in a class with Marvin Williams and Chris Paul solely because of his size.

[yo123]

just heard blake griffin has decided to return to OU



Good move, he could be a top 5-10 pick next year.