Why Gholston should be the #1 Pick:

[thebow305]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YE2y_ypR9wQ

This is by far my favorite Vernon Gholston video. It is a little corny at the beginning but it gets pretty cool. Some of the highlights are pretty sick and after watching this I hope that most of you will finally agree with me on him being the #1 pick.

For all the Jake Long lovers out there, I know a lot is made about how he only gave up one sack and that it was to Gholston. Some use this to argue against Jake Long and for Gholston, and some go the other way. But it seems to me that the more I watch that Ohio State-Michigan game this year, it seems like Jake looked completely overmatched and overwhelmed the entire time. You can see from the clips from that game that even when going against #97 Cameron Heyward, a Freshman, Long got bull rushed on more than one occasion and even put on his back from time to time.

Call me crazy, at least from this video, Gholston seems like the superior prospect.

Opinions!?

[Sniper]

Gholston is an elite pass rusher but he's very much a one trick pony. Don't ever ask him to stop the run and you'll be ok.

[LonghornsLegend]

I dont believe Gholston is on the level of Ware, who Parcells was enamored with...I dont think he can drop back into coverage and be as effective, or be as versatile in the defense...Now thats not a knock on him, but for the #1 pick, if he wants a backer I would prefer Long...Gholston is pretty much known for being hot and cold, off and on, Chris Long is non stop motor 110%, Long seems a leader Gholston doesnt, Long seems like he fits Parcells MO a little better and what he would want for his team.


Personally I think Gholston could rack up some sacks with the Dolphins, create pressure, but I dont think he offers what Long does and that seems to be what Parcells would value more.


Thats just my take on it, Chris Long seems to be out of the picture, but I wouldnt be surprised to see a curveball come draft time.

[thebow305]

I dont believe Gholston is on the level of Ware, who Parcells was enamored with...I dont think he can drop back into coverage and he as effective, or be as versatile in the defense...Now thats not a knock on him, but for the #1 pick, if he wants a backer I would prefer Long...Gholston is pretty much known for being hot and cold, off and on, Chris Long is non stop motor 110%, Long seems a leader Gholston doesnt, Long seems like he fits Parcells MO a little better and what he would want for his team.


Personally I think Gholston could rack up some sacks with the Dolphins, create pressure, but I dont think he offers what Long does and that seems to be what Parcells would value more.


Thats just my take on it, Chris Long seems to be out of the picture, but I wouldnt be surprised to see a curveball come draft time.

Last time I checked, Merriman's coverage skills are pretty awful, yet he is still considered one of the games' ELITE. Call me crazy, but let the defensive backs cover and front seven do what they do best, handle the line of scrimmage.

[holt_bruce81]

I really hate HIGHLIGHT videos. What do they show? I'm sure someone can make a highlight video where David Carr looks like the best QB in the nfl.

[MetSox17]

Last time I checked, Merriman's coverage skills are pretty awful, yet he is still considered one of the games' ELITE. Call me crazy, but let the defensive backs cover and front seven do what they do best, handle the line of scrimmage.

Granted, but A.J Smith doesn't run the Dolphins..

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Last time I checked, Merriman's coverage skills are pretty awful, yet he is still considered one of the games' ELITE. Call me crazy, but let the defensive backs cover and front seven do what they do best, handle the line of scrimmage.

Except that Merrimen has shown to be pretty excellent at taking angles to the ball carrier on outside runs, changing his pass rush approach over game, and has a variety of rush moves. Gholston is at the very least deficient in all this. That said, perhaps he will be the pick.

However, we all know how much you want it to happen. How about just sitting back and waiting for the next 8 days (probably less, if Miami means to sign their guy prior to draft day).

[swollja]

why do you think golston is so great? ohio st fan? working out fan?

i mean he is good, but it just seems like you think hes one of the best prospects ever

[thebow305]

why do you think golston is so great? ohio st fan? working out fan?

i mean he is good, but it just seems like you think hes one of the best prospects ever

I just think he's the best prospect for us, and one of the best overall in a very weak draft at the top.

I'm not an Ohio State fan really, I actually used to hate the Buckeyes. It just seems like every year I fall in love with one of the players from there and end up wanting him for the Dolphins. (ie: Ted Ginn last year/Gholston this year) It's strange because it would seem to anyone else I'm sure that I look like an OSU fan. I see myself being all over Malcolm Jenkins next year too! :D

[lordquas]

I'd rather list all the reasons why he shouldn't be 1st pick..

[swollja]

I just think he's the best prospect for us, and one of the best overall in a very weak draft at the top.

I'm not an Ohio State fan really, I actually used to hate the Buckeyes. It just seems like every year I fall in love with one of the players from there and end up wanting him for the Dolphins. (ie: Ted Ginn last year/Gholston this year) It's strange because it would seem to anyone else I'm sure that I look like an OSU fan. I see myself being all over Malcolm Jenkins next year too! :D

i think yeah an olb is the way to go this year, i just think chris long would help out the fins more

[DawgBone]

Gholston is an elite pass rusher but he's very much a one trick pony. Don't ever ask him to stop the run and you'll be ok.

What a laughable joke. Not only does just about every recruiting site including this one say Gholston is good in the run game, but our D cordinator said he was our best run stuffer all year. Dont even try to make an OSU player sound bad you bias Michigan fan.

Scott Wright says "does an solid job against the run"
Scott > Sniper

another site says "shows good instincts, playing the run and the pass"

I can go on and on and on.....

[Scientist McKnowitall]

What a laughable joke. Not only does just about every recruiting site including this one say Gholston is good in the run game, but our D cordinator said he was our best run stuffer all year. Dont even try to make an OSU player sound bad you bias Michigan fan.

This is laughable dude, one of Gholston's biggest weaknesses is the fact that he was always looking to get to the Quarterback and he always gets suckered upfield which at times allowed teams to run right at him.

[DawgBone]

This is laughable dude, one of Gholston's biggest weaknesses is the fact that he was always looking to get to the Quarterback and he always gets suckered upfield which at times allowed teams to run right at him.

Ummmm Ive heard that mentioned so much in his weaknesses from all the scouts.....wait noone has ever brought that up? DE's allways go after the QB unless they are told otherwise, which is when he doesnt do it?

How do you get drafted high in the draft as a DE? Its definatly not because your the best at stopping the run, teams covet pass rushers. Is Freeney not the highest paid DE? How good is he at stopping the run? Gholston is worlds better than Freeney and anyone on this site should agree.

[keylime_5]

Gholston was great against the run when we weren't in full out blitz mode up front. Just b/c a DE sells out to get to the passer at times doesn't mean that he is not techincally sound at stopping the run. Gholston is good against the run when he doesn't overpursue which usually depends on the down and distance. It's not like Dwight Freeney where if you run at him and he knows it's a run you can move the ball easily. I don't think he's the best player in the draft or anything or that he should go #1, and I think he'd be better in a 4-3 at RDE (certainly hope he goes top of course)

[etk]

I've been a supporter for Gholston to Miami for about as long as anyone. I think the coverage "nitpicking" is a bit ridiculous. The man played linebacker in high school and is athletic enough to learn his drops and succeed in coverage. A fluid athlete like Gholston will have no problem getting to the flat or hook-curl when necessary.

Gholston is inconsistent against the run, but I've seen him hold his ground a lot and he seems pretty stout at the point of attack. He's usually very good in pursuit as well. Even Mike Mayock complimented him on his run stopping skills and Mayock is pretty stingy on that. Once again, he's a bit raw in some areas but the potential is all there.

[Scientist McKnowitall]

Haha you homer, watch some tape. Gholston struggles with bullrushing and used his speed and finesse to mask that problem when he was up against big elite tackles.

(Directed towards Dawgbone, I forgot to quote him)

[Crickett]

Opinions!?

You've forgotten something. The only reason people have Jake Long projected to go to Miami instead of one of the teams between #2 and #5 is not that he's the best prospect, but that they're (supposedly) negotiating with him. And sorry, but no argument that Vernon Gholston is better is going to top that.

Now, it could and probably is just a ruse, but until the draft itself, we're not going to know. The 49ers negotiations with Aaron Rodgers was a ruse. The Texans negotiations with Mario Williams was not.

[etk]

Haha you homer goof, watch some tape. Gholston struggles with bullrushing and used his speed and finesse to mask that problem when he was up against big elite tackles.

(Directed towards Dawgbone, I forgot to quote him)

I'm not Dawgbone, and I'm also not a homer, but I disagree.

[Purple N Proud]

Haha you homer goof, watch some tape. Gholston struggles with bullrushing and used his speed and finesse to mask that problem when he was up against big elite tackles.

(Directed towards Dawgbone, I forgot to quote him)

Haha that's funny kinda like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yot9ClPvZDg

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Where has the perception that Dwight Freeney is poor against the run come from? The guy has improved immensly from when he was a prospect, and he gets very good and consistent leverage and covers lanes very well in the run game.

Gholston is stronger than Freeney, but he isn't nearly as inventive as pass rusher, nor does he use his hands half as well.

[Scientist McKnowitall]

[QUOTE=Purple N Proud;1018256]Haha that's funny kinda like this [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yot9ClPvZDg"]

Ha nice a youtube clip of 1 play, but I should have said occasionally struggles with bullrushing but it could be because he had a tendency to wear down as the game went on.

[Bigburt63]

Haha that's funny kinda like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yot9ClPvZDg

One play where it appears jake long loses his footing when he goes to pwoer step inside doesnt prove that he is an awesome bull rusher. from what i have seen, he uses mainly his speed. that being said I think he is an elite physical talent with the potential to be something special, but he is more of a project type as he needs to get a more diverse repertoire of pass moves to be successful in the nfl, also he needs to learn how to play lb in the NFL which is different than playing LB in high school

[keylime_5]

Gholston is stronger than Freeney, but he isn't nearly as inventive as pass rusher, nor does he use his hands half as well.

definitely. I like Gholston as a top 10 kinda prospect, not so sure he's a top 5 talent, this is a weak draft I suppose.

[Bengals78]

I've never really been high on Gholston. Ive always thought he would be best suited as a near strict pass rusher in the pros. I think Jake Long is the best fit at #1 for the Phins. I don't think Gholston is the best DE in this draft either. He is a physical freak though. Which captures some of our attentions.

[Michigan]

But it seems to me that the more I watch that Ohio State-Michigan game this year, it seems like Jake looked completely overmatched and overwhelmed the entire time.

Are you sure "Jake Long getting completely overmatched" was what you saw, not what you wanted to see? Considering how outspoken you are about taking Gholston over Long, I think its the latter. If you watch tape looking for only the bad things one guy does and only the good things another guy does, you're definitely going to think the "second" guy is better. Long more than held his own the entire game; it was the rest of the OL, especially RT Schilling that had problems.

[BamaFalcon59]

Where has the perception that Dwight Freeney is poor against the run come from? The guy has improved immensly from when he was a prospect, and he gets very good and consistent leverage and covers lanes very well in the run game.

Gholston is stronger than Freeney, but he isn't nearly as inventive as pass rusher, nor does he use his hands half as well.

Dwight Freeney is a limited move pass rusher as well. His height takes away the swim move, his size the bull rush for the most part. He usually relies on the spin move and the jet from the outside.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Dwight Freeney is a limited move pass rusher as well. His height takes away the swim move, his size the bull rush for the most part. He usually relies on the spin move and the jet from the outside.

From what I've seen, Freeney is much more likely to pull a real move and judge the right time to make that move than Gholston is, who tends to either bull rush to try to edge around his man every single time.

[energizerbunny]

i've said this over and over again...

Neither Ware nor Merriman compare to Gholston as a prospect, neither of them produced like him in college and took over as many games as Vernon did this past season.


Remember the game Freeney had against Ogden? thats exactly what Gholston did to Jake Long, not only as a junior but also as a senior (although some will argue that Gholston molested the Michigan RT worse).

Who cares that he isn't a polished coverage guy? you know who also wasn't very good in coverage? Lawrence Taylor....

However, no one really seemed to care about that

[Bengals78]

Most people are enamored by Gholston for his physical attributes. He didn't so much molest Long as the rest of the OLine sucked that game. One offensive lineman doesn't make the line.

[energizerbunny]

Most people are enamored by Gholston for his physical attributes. He didn't so much molest Long as the rest of the OLine sucked that game. One offensive lineman doesn't make the line.

That would be held much more true if we were talking about interior lineman, however Gholston is a DE and Otackles a routinely put on islands (much like your CBs matched up 1 on 1 with a WR).

The elite ones will take their men out of the game, and for GHolston to have success against the best tackle in the draft speaks volumes.


For comparisons sake it would be like Devin Thomas matched up with Leodis McKelvin and going 6 for 100+ and a couple of TDs

[Paranoidmoonduck]

i've said this over and over again...

Neither Ware nor Merriman compare to Gholston as a prospect, neither of them produced like him in college and took over as many games as Vernon did this past season.

As many games? Gholston "took over" exactly two games, the rest of them he was mostly nowhere to be seen. And even in those two games (Wisconsin and Michigan), the guy only racked up 4 total tackles in each.

So please explain to me how Gholston's one sack gotten against Jake Long in two years is like Devin Thomas burning McKelvin again.

[mqtirishfan]

Who cares that he isn't a polished coverage guy? you know who also wasn't very good in coverage? Lawrence Taylor....

However, no one really seemed to care about that

Lawrence Taylor was a) much better at coverage than Gholston at this point, which tends to happen when you compare a college LB to a college DE, and b) a far better prospect than Gholston.

[tom]

I have to admit I wasn't that impressed with that highlight reel. I think Gholston is a situational pass rusher in a 4-3, and a one dimensional player in the 3-4. That's never worthy of the first pick.

Jake Long can play the pass and the run, Chris Long can stop the run and put pressure on the QB, Glenn Dorsey can is an amazing DT prospect.

These three are better than Gholston.

[energizerbunny]

As many games? Gholston "took over" exactly two games, the rest of them he was mostly nowhere to be seen. And even in those two games (Wisconsin and Michigan), the guy only racked up 4 total tackles.

So please explain to me how Gholston's one sack gotten against Jake Long in two years is like Devin Thomas burning McKelvin again.

elite OTs rarely, rarely get beat.... go back to the elite OTs in the nfl and you can usually remember the times they got beat in their prime... Ogden,Boselli, Roaf, Jones... so on and so forth.

Its the glory of being a Defensive lineman, even the great ones are simply average for the entire game and make 2 or 3 plays and all of a sudden have great games.


On the flip side, if Long had dominated Gholston, pancaked him and drove him 15 yards downfield everytime they engadged we would be having a much different debate here and it would be all hail Jake Long.

Now as far as him taking over games who cares about tackles? he had a great linebacking core behind him... last time I checked Defensive Ends don't get paid millions of dollars to be making 90 tackles a year.... they make that much for getting sacks and eclipsing the double digit milestone.

The impact Gholston had on games was much more then any defensive in the draft with the possible exception being Dorsey. Even in the games he didn't "dominate" he was a factor in altering what the opposing offense did.. and tried to do.


Lets not forget, "taking over games" isn't just sacks,ints,tfls,etc... how many times was Gholston consistantly in the face of the opposing QB? how many times did the QB rush his throw because of the pressure Vernon was putting on him all day? If you want to see what I mean by this go back and watch the National Championship where Gholston is in the LSU backfield the entire game but at the same time does not record a sack or by any means have a good statistical game

[energizerbunny]

Lawrence Taylor was a) much better at coverage than Gholston at this point, which tends to happen when you compare a college LB to a college DE, and b) a far better prospect than Gholston.

by no means am I comparing him to Lawrence Taylor (we probably will never see another one)

I'am simply stating that coverage ability is overrated when evaluating rush linebackers, who gives a rats a$$ if you can cover if you aren't goin to be able to get close to that 10 sack marker? and if you have a guy as adapt at rushin the passer such as a Merriman or Gholston why in the world would you want them in coverage anyway other then in rare situations and unorthodox blitzes that call for it?

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I would never try and argue that Gholston doesn't have a great first step or that he doesn't close down on the quarterback very quickly. He absolutely does.

But don't paint him out to be something he's not. He has had a few good plays against Jake Long in his career, but there's really only two I can recall that impressed me that much. He's had a problem of disappearing for stretches in games, he seems to lose focus on gaining leverage and gets washed out of plays, he lacks range, he takes poor angles, he doesn't tend to incorporate adjustments to his approach against particular tackles, he doesn't have anything in terms of pass rushing moves, and he doesn't use his hands all that well.

The potential is there. No doubt. But he's a fairly stiff athlete, especially when compared to former prospects like Merrimen and Ware, and he's a long ways away from being and every down player and a double digit sack threat at the same time.

If someone works with him, and (more importantly) he's willing to put in the time and effort, he could be a top notch pass rusher in the NFL. However, I see a long road ahead of him, longer than should be for a guy getting top five talk (in my humble opinion).

[theogt]

I'm not Dawgbone, and I'm also not a homer, but I disagree.Ditto.....

[energizerbunny]

I have to admit I wasn't that impressed with that highlight reel. I think Gholston is a situational pass rusher in a 4-3, and a one dimensional player in the 3-4. That's never worthy of the first pick.

Jake Long can play the pass and the run, Chris Long can stop the run and put pressure on the QB, Glenn Dorsey can is an amazing DT prospect.

These three are better than Gholston.

every single highlight tape should be thrown out, if thats all you watched when evaluating players guys like Reggie McNeil and Anthony Morelli would be 1st round picks.

The reason for the Vernon love fest (over Dorsey and Long) is simply his potential, 6'4 260+ with enough speed to run with backs. His only weaknesses (inconsistency vs the run , and coverage) can be easily corrected with coaching and experience and he has more then enough tools to ensure success in both these areas.

[energizerbunny]

He's had a problem of disappearing for stretches in games, he seems to lose focus on gaining leverage and gets washed out of plays, he lacks range, he takes poor angles, he doesn't tend to incorporate adjustments to his approach against particular tackles, he doesn't have anything in terms of pass rushing moves, and he doesn't use his hands all that well.



I think if you go back and look at most of the top DEs drafted in the top 10 over the last decade you'd find a similar trend that they seem to disapear in games, if that wasn't the case we'd have like Mario,Calais,Vernon and Julius racking up 35 tfl and 18+ sack years in college when you can count the guys on one hand in college who are talented enough to block them.

In terms of him not having good hands, or good moves... my opinion on this is that he really hasn't been forced to develop any, he has been stronger and faster then every single Offensive tackle he has ever gone up against in his entire life.. with perhaps the exceptions being Long and JT


In terms of him getting washed out, you won't find many DEs that don't from time to time, remember these Tackles will usually weight 45+ pounds more than the average tackle... you are going to lose some battles, its inevitable... however at the same time Gholston has also shown he can hold the point against these bigger players time and time again and will only improve as he is forced to play against better competition


So is he a finished product? no

will he take time? certainly, rarely will you find rookie rush players that have immediate impacts on the league

but when its all said and done with his work ethic and determination ,it would be surprising to see him not in the elite of the league and wrecking havoc in opposing backfields for a decade

[tom]

every single highlight tape should be thrown out, if thats all you watched when evaluating players guys like Reggie McNeil and Anthony Morelli would be 1st round picks.

The reason for the Vernon love fest (over Dorsey and Long) is simply his potential, 6'4 260+ with enough speed to run with backs. His only weaknesses (inconsistency vs the run , and coverage) can be easily corrected with coaching and experience and he has more then enough tools to ensure success in both these areas.

I actually watched a few of his games, but whoever started this thread said that highlight reel was amazing... but that's besides the point.

Potential isn't worth +35 million guaranteed. Chris Long and Jake Long are the safest picks and the only players worthy of the first pick overall. Sure, Gholston may have been great in college against good teams, but in the NFL, burning tackles is going to be much harder, and if he can't do it consistently he's no better than KGB. Def. not worthy of the first pick overall.

[energizerbunny]

I actually watched a few of his games, but whoever started this thread said that highlight reel was amazing... but that's besides the point.

Potential isn't worth +35 million guaranteed. Chris Long and Jake Long are the safest picks and the only players worthy of the first pick overall. Sure, Gholston may have been great in college against good teams, but in the NFL, burning tackles is going to be much harder, and if he can't do it consistently he's no better than KGB. Def. not worthy of the first pick overall.

First off, safe is never safe. Anyone who has followed the nfl draft for any extended time period know that. Heck even the guys who have followed it for the last 5-7 years know that.

Potential, in most cases will win out... the purpose of having first round picks is to find Stars... not to find guys who may never be better then above average starters.

sometimes your going to strikeout, other times your gonna hit a home run... when your flirting with talents like this its worth the gamble more times then not

[Sniper]

What a laughable joke. Not only does just about every recruiting site including this one say Gholston is good in the run game, but our D cordinator said he was our best run stuffer all year. Dont even try to make an OSU player sound bad you bias Michigan fan.

Scott Wright says "does an solid job against the run"
Scott > Sniper

another site says "shows good instincts, playing the run and the pass"

I can go on and on and on.....

No. See unlike you, I have no problems admitting when players I don't like are good. I've been all over Beanie Wells' nuts pretty much all year. I said Malcolm Jenkins was likely the top CB this year. Gholston is an elite pass rusher who does pretty well against the outside rush, but he can be run at.

DawgBone, your opinion is worth somewhere between a steaming pile of dog **** and David Boston's pro career. Take it somewhere else, no one gives a ****. All you ever say is ZOMGZ OSU RULEZZZZZZZZZZZ or something to that extent. Give it a rest

[etk]

From what I've seen, Freeney is much more likely to pull a real move and judge the right time to make that move than Gholston is, who tends to either bull rush to try to edge around his man every single time.

I hear what you're saying, and I completely agree, but isn't that what most 3-4 OLBs do when they pass rush anyway? Merriman and Ware rarely do a more complicated pass rush than a simple edge rush with speed or bull rush or mix. A little work on his hand placement and technique and Gholston will be fine as a pass rusher (assuming he plays a 3-4).

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I hear what you're saying, and I completely agree, but isn't that what most 3-4 OLBs do when they pass rush anyway? Merriman and Ware rarely do a more complicated pass rush than a simple edge rush with speed or bull rush or mix. A little work on his hand placement and technique and Gholston will be fine as a pass rusher (assuming he plays a 3-4).

Yes, an approach from a more outside position will help Gholston beat his man with more regularity from a simple speed rush. However, both Merrimen and Ware are quite adept at dipping their shoulder to swing by a lineman or getting low while coming at full speed, so that they can explode into the offensive lineman and disrupt his balance. I see a real inflexible nature to Gholston, and I, as of yet, have not seen him produce a very fluid pass rush. However, this is probably a minor concern, even though I could argue it might limit his ceiling a little.

My real concern with him lining up at linebacker is every else that would be required of him. He didn't look good doing linebacker drills, and while he has the potential to be able to control his man in the run game, he has never really been that hot in pursuit of ball carriers who aren't slow quarterbacks.

This is the real reason Gholston worries me. He's a walking contradiction. His game with his hand in the dirt isn't nearly to the point it needs to be to succeed regularly in the NFL, but his game while upright looks so stiff and awkward whenever he's doing anything but chasing passers that he looks like he'll need to be really limited from the position at first, and after that, who knows?

People can say the word "potential" all they like, but I see a lack of natural football athleticism that I absolutely did not see in a DeMarcus Ware or Shawne Merrimen (or even Kamerion Wimbley). That's my concern.

[BamaFalcon59]

I like Gholston a lot. I think he will no doubt be a ten sack a year player, and he could be very good against the run. I like Chris Long more because he is a great pass rusher, is great at stopping the run right now, is so versatile, and can drop back in coverage.

[Crickett]

Potential isn't worth +35 million guaranteed. Chris Long and Jake Long are the safest picks and the only players worthy of the first pick overall. Sure, Gholston may have been great in college against good teams, but in the NFL, burning tackles is going to be much harder, and if he can't do it consistently he's no better than KGB. Def. not worthy of the first pick overall.
[/quote]

I just laughed out loud at this. You do realize that, potential is all any rookie prospect is until they hit the field, right? No matter how "safe" they are. It looks like you just made the argument that no team should draft anyone in the top three ever.

[toonsterwu]

Really a side note, but I believe Ware and Merriman were more dominant collegiate players (granted, Ware's level of competition is a factor) and that both translate to the pro game better than Gholston. Short of it is, yes, I think both of those guys were better prospects coming out. Heck, if Ware had played and performed as well at a bigger school, we probably would've been talking about him as a true elite prospect.

[Joeyjr09]

Really a side note, but I believe Ware and Merriman were more dominant collegiate players (granted, Ware's level of competition is a factor) and that both translate to the pro game better than Gholston. Short of it is, yes, I think both of those guys were better prospects coming out. Heck, if Ware had played and performed as well at a bigger school, we probably would've been talking about him as a true elite prospect.

Have to disagree with you. In hindsight Ware and Merriman seem like better prospects then Gholston but that's partially because we see what Ware and Gholston have become. Ware and Merriman both had as many if not more issues to deal with when they were coming out then Gholston did.

These are the knocks against Ware when he was coming out:
"Gets pushed around too much when reached. He must improve his overall bulk and lower body strength. He plays without leverage and allows too many blockers to get into his body. He also gets too far upfield at times and will take himself out of plays. Also needs to improve his consistency as a tackler. He has power, but misses too many open-field tackles."

Pretty smiliar to Gholston. And remember Ware took his share of time to get adjusted to the coverage aspect of playing OLB.

Here is the knocks against Merriman when he was coming out:
"Is an upfield player that primarily rushed the passer while at Maryland and while has some experience dropping into coverage is still raw in that area. Takes some false steps, is overaggressive at times and is vulnerable to play action. Doesn't always use hands well, relies on quickness to slip blocks in the open field and has some problems making the play once an offensive lineman locks on. Will need time to develop cover skills if moves to linebacker and probably won't make an immediate contribution on defense."

Again pretty similar to the knocks on Gholston.

Gholston workouts are all on par or better then Merriman and Ware's as well. I'd say Gholston is similar skill set wise to Merriman and I'm pretty sure most people will take a Merriman type on their 3-4 defense.

I think they are all pretty equal as far as prospects go. I just think the way Ware and Merriman have taken over the 3-4 OLB position in the NFL has people thinking they were better prospects then they really were.

With all that said, man does bow go overboard on his Gholston crap. I really like Gholston, he is likely my favorite prospect in the draft despite me thinking Jake Long would be the smart move for Miami. But he runs around chanting like a little kid for Gholston now imagine what it will be like if Miami actually takes him.

[etk]

-Merriman still has the same issues: false steps, overagression.

-thebow was like this last year with Ginn, and it was unbearable when they actually drafted him. Nothing new.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Gholston workouts are all on par or better then Merriman and Ware's as well. I'd say Gholston is similar skill set wise to Merriman and I'm pretty sure most people will take a Merriman type on their 3-4 defense.

Well, Merrimen didn't really work out prior to the draft in very much detail, so who knows what sort of numbers he would have posted. However, Gholston doesn't even begin to touch Ware's workout numbers. Gholston put up decent agility numbers for a tweener, Ware put up decent agility numbers for a wide receiver.

[Joeyjr09]

Well, Merrimen didn't really work out prior to the draft in very much detail, so who knows what sort of numbers he would have posted. However, Gholston doesn't even begin to touch Ware's workout numbers. Gholston put up decent agility numbers for a tweener, Ware put up decent agility numbers for a wide receiver.

Have you seen Ware's workout numbers?

They are pretty much identical to Gholstons

Gholston: (1) 37 reps on the bench (2) 4.64 40 yard dash (3) 35.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 5 inch broad jump (5) 7.02 3 cone drill (6) 4.40 20 yard shuttle.

Ware: (1) 27 reps on the bench (2) 4.56 40 yard dash (3) 38.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 2 inch broad jump (5) 6.87 3 cone drill (6) 4.07 20 yard shuttle

Ware was 6'4" and 251 Lbs
Gholston is 6'3 and 266 Lbs

Gholston's workout numbers in the strength department crush Ware's and on everything speed and agility related, Gholston is just slightly behind but that could have something to do with the extra 15 pounds he has on his frame. Ware as a foot taller and yet only had a 3 inch higher Veritical.

Gholston is every bit the physical freak Ware was and maybe even more so.

[Sniper]

Gholston: (1) 37 reps on the bench (2) 4.64 40 yard dash (3) 35.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 5 inch broad jump (5) 7.02 3 cone drill (6) 4.40 20 yard shuttle.

Ware: (1) 27 reps on the bench (2) 4.56 40 yard dash (3) 38.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 2 inch broad jump (5) 6.87 3 cone drill (6) 4.07 20 yard shuttle

Ware was 6'4" and 251 Lbs
Gholston is 6'3 and 266 Lbs

Gholston's workout numbers in the strength department crush Ware's and on everything speed and agility related, Gholston is just slightly behind but that could have something to do with the extra 15 pounds he has on his frame. Ware as a foot taller and yet only had a 3 inch higher Veritical.

Gholston is every bit the physical freak Ware was and maybe even more so.

A) Ware is an inch taller, not a foot.
B) Gholston kills Ware in strength. Not surprising.
C) But to say Gholston is "slightly behind" in speed and agility is a lie. Ware's 40 is almost a full 0.1 faster. His 20 yard shuttle is 0.33 faster, a ridiculous margin. And his 3 cone is 0.15 faster, another significant margin.
D) A 3 inch difference in the vertical jump is a HUGE difference.
E) I'm not comparing the players, just the numbers.

[BamaFalcon59]

Have you seen Ware's workout numbers?

They are pretty much identical to Gholstons

Gholston: (1) 37 reps on the bench (2) 4.64 40 yard dash (3) 35.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 5 inch broad jump (5) 7.02 3 cone drill (6) 4.40 20 yard shuttle.

Ware: (1) 27 reps on the bench (2) 4.56 40 yard dash (3) 38.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 2 inch broad jump (5) 6.87 3 cone drill (6) 4.07 20 yard shuttle

Ware was 6'4" and 251 Lbs
Gholston is 6'3 and 266 Lbs

Gholston's workout numbers in the strength department crush Ware's and on everything speed and agility related, Gholston is just slightly behind but that could have something to do with the extra 15 pounds he has on his frame. Ware as a foot taller and yet only had a 3 inch higher Veritical.

Gholston is every bit the physical freak Ware was and maybe even more so.

Ware's agility times crushed Gholston's. The difference in 40s is like 4.42 and 4.50, it is noticable. 4.07 20 yard shuttle to 4.40 40 yard shuttle is a big difference, as is 6.87 3 cone to a 7.02 3 cone. Those are the main reasons Ware is so fluid, where as Gholston is stiff.

[BamaFalcon59]

Have you seen Ware's workout numbers?

They are pretty much identical to Gholstons

Gholston: (1) 37 reps on the bench (2) 4.64 40 yard dash (3) 35.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 5 inch broad jump (5) 7.02 3 cone drill (6) 4.40 20 yard shuttle.

Ware: (1) 27 reps on the bench (2) 4.56 40 yard dash (3) 38.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 2 inch broad jump (5) 6.87 3 cone drill (6) 4.07 20 yard shuttle

Ware was 6'4" and 251 Lbs
Gholston is 6'3 and 266 Lbs

Gholston's workout numbers in the strength department crush Ware's and on everything speed and agility related, Gholston is just slightly behind but that could have something to do with the extra 15 pounds he has on his frame. Ware as a foot taller and yet only had a 3 inch higher Veritical.

Gholston is every bit the physical freak Ware was and maybe even more so.

Height has no baring on the vertical. They measure from the tips of your arms to where you touch, and measure the difference. If a 5'5" player hit 30 inches he could very well have a better vertical than a 6'0" player who hit 34 inches. Or at least that is the way I understand it.

[Joeyjr09]

A) Ware is an inch taller, not a foot.
B) Gholston kills Ware in strength. Not surprising.
C) But to say Gholston is "slightly behind" in speed and agility is a lie. Ware's 40 is almost a full 0.1 faster. His 20 yard shuttle is 0.33 faster, a ridiculous margin. And his 3 cone is 0.15 faster, another significant margin.
D) A 3 inch difference in the vertical jump is a HUGE difference.
E) I'm not comparing the players, just the numbers.

A.) Don't know why I said a foot. Meant an inch. Was just trying to show that his vertical was not as huge a difference as it appears to be.
B.) Agreed
C.)Ware's .08 difference in the 40 is likely the result on his added 15 pounds. If Ware weighed 15 pounds more at the time, I think its safe to say he be .08 slower then he was. I'll agree with you that the other times are definately more stacked in Wares favor but add 15 pounds to Ware and those margin's aren't nearly as wide as they seem to be right now.
D.) Ware is an inch taller so the vertical is really only a 2 inch difference. Considering the veritcal and broad jumps are the two most pointless of all the drills, I don't think this is too big a deal.
E.) Remember all these numbers are relative to the players size. Gholston is carrying aorund 15 more pounds then Ware was so you'd expect his numbers to be lower.

EDIT: Just seems that people are ignoring the size alltogether. A 15 pound weight difference is pretty significant between players.

[Joeyjr09]

Height has no baring on the vertical. They measure from the tips of your arms to where you touch, and measure the difference. If a 5'5" player hit 30 inches he could very well have a better vertical than a 6'0" player who hit 34 inches. Or at least that is the way I understand it.

I always though it was a straight jump from the ground to were to touch. You could be right tho. Anyways, As I said before the vertical is the most pointless of all the drills. Only thing it really shows is if you'll tip a couple more passes over your entire career.

[Sniper]

A.) Don't know why I said a foot. Meant an inch. Was just trying to show that his vertical was not as huge a difference as it appears to be.
B.) Agreed
C.)Ware's .08 difference in the 40 is likely the result on his added 15 pounds. If Ware weighed 15 pounds more at the time, I think its safe to say he be .08 slower then he was. I'll agree with you that the other times are definately more stacked in Wares favor but add 15 pounds to Ware and those margin's aren't nearly as wide as they seem to be right now.
D.) Ware is an inch taller so the vertical is really only a 2 inch difference. Considering the veritcal and broad jumps are the two most pointless of all the drills, I don't think this is too big a deal.
E.) Remember all these numbers are relative to the players size. Gholston is carrying aorund 15 more pounds then Ware was so you'd expect his numbers to be lower.

C) No it's not. Explain Vernon Davis' 4.38. Explain why Adrian Peterson is faster than Mike Hart. How come Darren McFadden runs a 4.33 at 210 lbs? Why is LaDainian Tomlinson faster than Ray Rice? .08 is a ******* HUGE difference.
D) No it's not. Vertical leap is still "how high can you jump". Ware can still jump significantly higher.
E) I'd expect Gholston's numbers to be worse if he weren't a walking ball of muscle.

[Sniper]

I always though it was a straight jump from the ground to were to touch. You could be right tho. Anyways, As I said before the vertical is the most pointless of all the drills. Only thing it really shows is if you'll tip a couple more passes over your entire career.

Incorrect. Vertical jump is a good indicator of explosiveness, elasticity and lower body strength.

[Michigan]

Considering the veritcal and broad jumps are the two most pointless of all the drills, I don't think this is too big a deal.


please tell me you didn't just say that.

[Joeyjr09]

C) No it's not. Explain Vernon Davis' 4.38. Explain why Adrian Peterson is faster than Mike Hart. How come Darren McFadden runs a 4.33 at 210 lbs? Why is LaDainian Tomlinson faster than Ray Rice? .08 is a ******* HUGE difference.

What is it with people and the language and pissing matches all the time on here lately. Damn it gets annoying. Can't anyone have a convo and make a point without getting all bent out of shape?

Vernon Davis, Darren McFadden and guys like that are the exception, not the rule. Notice your talking about a bunch of top 5 picks right there that you just listed.

In general, the 40s are based on weight. You don't expect a 220 pounds WR to run the same as a 195 pound WR. You don't expect a 300 pound DL to run the same as a 330 pound DE. You can't expect a almost 270 pound LB to run the same as a 250 pound LB. If he did, then people would be even more impressed then they already are and he'd be a lock top 3 pick.

[Joeyjr09]

please tell me you didn't just say that.

Yea I did, I think the jumping drills are the most pointless of all the drills. Peronsally I think the weight room, pratice field and 40 are the only things of any significance as time and time again people have proven that the rest of the drills are really unimportant, but at least you can see things with the movement drills, jumping drills are pretty pointless.

[LonghornsLegend]

Also keep in mind Ware didnt get drafted in the top 10 in that draft, and this is a thread titled 'why Gholston should be #1', when in comparison his numbers would have to trump Ware in almost everything to make a strong case for #1...The speed and agility numbers are a much greater difference then you believe, thus making Ware alot better in coverage and all-around LB instead of just rushing the passer.

[Joeyjr09]

Also keep in mind Ware didnt get drafted in the top 10 in that draft, and this is a thread titled 'why Gholston should be #1', when in comparison his numbers would have to trump Ware in almost everything to make a strong case for #1...The speed and agility numbers are a much greater difference then you believe, thus making Ware alot better in coverage and all-around LB instead of just rushing the passer.

I think it's safe to say that if people knew what Ware would become. He would have been in the running for number 1 in that draft and defiantely a lock to go top 3. Having Ware succeed helps Gholston's case for number 1, not hinders it because Ware didn't go top 10.

I never said Gholston was as good in coverage. I don't expect Gholston to be good in coverage. In Fact, eariler in the thread, I said he seemed more like Merriman then Ware. But with all that said Ware was not good in coverage coming out of college, it took him a couple years in the league to get to were he is at. They are different prospects and different players obviously. I'm just trying to make the case that Ware and Merriman were not these great prospects that were better then Gholston. They are all right around the same range. Ware was faster and quicker and had more all around potential, Gholston is stronger, and has more potential as a pass rusher. Depends what you are looking for in your LB but I think they are pretty even as far as being graded out as prospects.

[swollja]

Yea I did, I think the jumping drills are the most pointless of all the drills. Peronsally I think the weight room, pratice field and 40 are the only things of any significance as time and time again people have proven that the rest of the drills are really unimportant, but at least you can see things with the movement drills, jumping drills are pretty pointless.
i disagree. a good vert usually shows the guy is a good natural athlete having more fast twitch fibers than the next guy.

if anything, bench reps of 225 is pointless. but it's the standard so i see why they do it.

[Joeyjr09]

i disagree. a good vert usually shows the guy is a good natural athlete having more fast twitch fibers than the next guy.

if anything, bench reps of 225 is pointless. but it's the standard so i see why they do it.

I think the amount of strength shown is pointless for certain positions. Speedy WRs don't need to be real strong. But for OL and DL strength certainly helps. What I like about the bench is it gives you a good feel for who took their work room work and training seriously and who is just getting by on natural talent. It's not a perfect science but it gives you a little insite to a guys work ethic and that in my eyes is more important then anything any drill can show you.

[swollja]

I think the amount of strength shown is pointless for certain positions. Speedy WRs don't need to be real strong. But for OL and DL strength certainly helps. What I like about the bench is it gives you a good feel for who took their work room work and training seriously and who is just getting by on natural talent. It's not a perfect science but it gives you a little insite to a guys work ethic and that in my eyes is more important then anything any drill can show you.

yeah i was just gonna say it's work ethic. they should maybe move the weight up some so give us a better idea of stength, not endurance. maybe 300 lbs.

[thebow305]

C) No it's not. Explain Vernon Davis' 4.38. Explain why Adrian Peterson is faster than Mike Hart. How come Darren McFadden runs a 4.33 at 210 lbs? Why is LaDainian Tomlinson faster than Ray Rice? .08 is a ******* HUGE difference.
D) No it's not. Vertical leap is still "how high can you jump". Ware can still jump significantly higher.
E) I'd expect Gholston's numbers to be worse if he weren't a walking ball of muscle.

Damn you need to calm down man.

Everyone is just stating their own opinions. It's just a discussion on a NFL Draft Forum, its not life and death, so chill out!

[Sniper]

Damn you need to calm down man.

Everyone is just stating their own opinions. It's just a discussion on a NFL Draft Forum, its not life and death, so chill out!

Don't post dumb **** and we won't have issues.

[Joeyjr09]

Don't post dumb **** and we won't have issues.

What's your problem man? It's just football talk.

[Gatz]

Yea I did, I think the jumping drills are the most pointless of all the drills. Peronsally I think the weight room, pratice field and 40 are the only things of any significance as time and time again people have proven that the rest of the drills are really unimportant, but at least you can see things with the movement drills, jumping drills are pretty pointless.Incorrect. Vertical jump is a good indicator of explosiveness, elasticity and lower body strength.
And btw, Ware and Merriman were both better prospects than Gholston. This is a weak draft at the top, I still think that Gholston is worth a 6-10 pick even in this draft, and would Take Chris Long over him any day.

[Sniper]

What's your problem man? It's just football talk.

People who post without reason or logic are my problem.

[Sniper]

And btw, Ware and Merriman were both better prospects than Gholston. This is a weak draft at the top, I still think that Gholston is worth a 6-10 pick even in this draft, and would Take Chris Long over him any day.

QFT. End of story.

[BamaFalcon59]

yeah i was just gonna say it's work ethic. they should maybe move the weight up some so give us a better idea of stength, not endurance. maybe 300 lbs.

I think it should be a body weight percentage. Like 125% body weight.

[thebow305]

For all that's made up about Gholston's stiff hips and his less-than-ideal coverage abilities, there have been some great pass rushers out there that have not been all that great in coverage. Lawrence Taylor is the first that comes to mind. Not to mention all the great pass rushers in the game today that all have below average coverage skills. Kam Wimbley, Shawne Merriman, Shaun Phillips, & Joey Porter (in his prime) are all some of the glaring examples of guys that can flat out get to the QB but are less than stellar when out in pass coverage. I'm not even going to pretend that I wouldn't be more than ecstatic if Gholston ends up being the same calibre of player that each of them are. Merriman is considered one of the game's great pass rushers right now and Porter back in his Pittsburgh days was one of the most dominant defensive players in the league. No one cares that these guys can't cover to same their lives, because they do what they are supposed to, and that's get to the QB and pressure the offensive front. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is only ONE DaMarcus Ware. And who cares if Gholston is not Ware, it doesn't mean he won't be a great player. Players like Ware with his absolute freakish athletic ability don't come around very often so to expect every hybrid 3-4 OLB prospect to be him is just plain unethical. And this seems to be the standard that everyone holds these players to now, especially Gholston. Vernon Gholston is not DaMarcus Ware, plain and simple, and I don't care, so get over it!

[swollja]

I think it should be a body weight percentage. Like 125% body weight.

eh this isn't the olympics. they need to go up against guys bigger than them on the field so weight is weight.

[Gatz]

For all that's made up about Gholston's stiff hips and his less-than-ideal coverage abilities, there have been some great pass rushers out there that have not been all that great in coverage. Lawrence Taylor is the first that comes to mind. Not to mention all the great pass rushers in the game today that all have below average coverage skills. Kam Wimbley, Shawne Merriman, Shaun Phillips, & Joey Porter (in his prime) are all some of the glaring examples of guys that can flat out get to the QB but are less than stellar when out in pass coverage. I'm not even going to pretend that I wouldn't be more than ecstatic if Gholston ends up being the same calibre of player that each of them are. Merriman is considered one of the game's great pass rushers right now and Porter back in his Pittsburgh days was one of the most dominant defensive players in the league. No one cares that these guys can't cover to same their lives, because they do what they are supposed to, and that's get to the QB and pressure the offensive front. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is only ONE DaMarcus Ware. And who cares if Gholston is not Ware, it doesn't mean he won't be a great player. Players like Ware with his absolute freakish athletic ability don't come around very often so to expect every hybrid 3-4 OLB prospect to be him is just plain unethical. And this seems to be the standard that everyone holds these players to now, especially Gholston. Vernon Gholston is not DaMarcus Ware, plain and simple, and I don't care, so get over it!Is a player who can only excel as a pass rusher in the league worth a #1 overall pick? And a couple of Freakish athlestic DEs have been around the past few years...
Also, I am pretty sure Parcells would want a guy who can is versatile and can cover.

[BamaFalcon59]

eh this isn't the olympics. they need to go up against guys bigger than them on the field so weight is weight.

But that shows more true strength. A OT who is 330 is expected to bench press 225, it really shows strength over endurence. A 185 pound WR benching 225 like 23 times (Eddie Royal) is actually impressive. But if you up the weight to 300 then OL can be expected to do it, but a good amount of receivers would get one to three reps, maybe none.

[Joeyjr09]

But that shows more true strength. A OT who is 330 is expected to bench press 225, it really shows strength over endurence. A 185 pound WR benching 225 like 23 times (Eddie Royal) is actually impressive. But if you up the weight to 300 then OL can be expected to do it, but a good amount of receivers would get one to three reps, maybe none.

Agreed with you on somewhat. I actually wouldn't mind seeing both. I want to know what a players max strength is but it takes alot of hard work and training to have the conditioning to up 225 as many times as some of these guys do. There's stuff that can be gained from both.

[Sniper]

yeah i was just gonna say it's work ethic. they should maybe move the weight up some so give us a better idea of stength, not endurance. maybe 300 lbs.

Endurance lifting helps to show how strong the guy will be in the fourth quarter...

[swollja]

But that shows more true strength. A OT who is 330 is expected to bench press 225, it really shows strength over endurence. A 185 pound WR benching 225 like 23 times (Eddie Royal) is actually impressive. But if you up the weight to 300 then OL can be expected to do it, but a good amount of receivers would get one to three reps, maybe none.

as someone who used to compete in weightlifting in a light weight class i'm def all for pound for pound formulas, but since everybody is on the field at the same time, it doesn't apply to this situation i don't think

[Gatz]

By the way, why do the dolphin fans want Gholston over Long so bad?
If I was another team picking in the top 5, I would be ecstatic if Dolphins took Gholston. One trick ponies aren't worth a #1 pick in the nfl.

[swollja]

By the way, why do the dolphin fans want Gholston over Long so bad?
If I was another team picking in the top 5, I would be ecstatic if Dolphins took Gholston. One trick ponies aren't worth a #1 pick in the nfl.

id prefer chris long as a fins fan

[toonsterwu]

Have to disagree with you. In hindsight Ware and Merriman seem like better prospects then Gholston but that's partially because we see what Ware and Gholston have become. Ware and Merriman both had as many if not more issues to deal with when they were coming out then Gholston did.

These are the knocks against Ware when he was coming out:
"Gets pushed around too much when reached. He must improve his overall bulk and lower body strength. He plays without leverage and allows too many blockers to get into his body. He also gets too far upfield at times and will take himself out of plays. Also needs to improve his consistency as a tackler. He has power, but misses too many open-field tackles."

Pretty smiliar to Gholston. And remember Ware took his share of time to get adjusted to the coverage aspect of playing OLB.

Here is the knocks against Merriman when he was coming out:
"Is an upfield player that primarily rushed the passer while at Maryland and while has some experience dropping into coverage is still raw in that area. Takes some false steps, is overaggressive at times and is vulnerable to play action. Doesn't always use hands well, relies on quickness to slip blocks in the open field and has some problems making the play once an offensive lineman locks on. Will need time to develop cover skills if moves to linebacker and probably won't make an immediate contribution on defense."

Again pretty similar to the knocks on Gholston.

Gholston workouts are all on par or better then Merriman and Ware's as well. I'd say Gholston is similar skill set wise to Merriman and I'm pretty sure most people will take a Merriman type on their 3-4 defense.

I think they are all pretty equal as far as prospects go. I just think the way Ware and Merriman have taken over the 3-4 OLB position in the NFL has people thinking they were better prospects then they really were.

With all that said, man does bow go overboard on his Gholston crap. I really like Gholston, he is likely my favorite prospect in the draft despite me thinking Jake Long would be the smart move for Miami. But he runs around chanting like a little kid for Gholston now imagine what it will be like if Miami actually takes him.

I'm not basing anything off of hindsight. I'm basing it off of the reports of Ware and Merriman back then, versus Gholston now.

First, energizer was pointing to collegiate production. Numbers in of itself are somewhat useless. Sacks are as much a product of individual talent as well as the talent around you and the scheme you are in. And certainly, Ware playing at a lower level does bring in some questions. But that said, I believe both Merriman and Ware had more impact than Gholston did. In short, I think both were more dominant. As interesting as those defenses were at Maryland, teams geared up to stop Merriman, leading to Maryland shifting him around, and yet, he was still productive. Ware was just dominant at Troy.

Second, I think both were more refined and complete compared to Gholston. People forget how diversified Merriman's pass rushing abilities were. He had moves, and he had counters. Same with Demarcus Ware. Gholston can get there, but again, if we're comparing them coming out, yes, I believe the nod to being refined goes to Shawne and Demarcus. Both guys were guys you felt a bit more comfortable with in coverage, as they were used in coverage more than Gholston was collegiately. Heck, both essentially played rush backer roles in college (same with a guy like Gaines Adams last year).

Third, both have better motors than Gholston. This actually isn't the biggest issue, as much as people want to overrate it. In general, trench players have a tendency to take plays off. Chris Long is about the only prospect in recent memory that was highly rated that people didn't feel that way about.

All in all, neither one was a perfect prospect. There is no such thing. But I think MErriman and Gholston are very similar physically, and I think Merriman was a more refined pass rusher, with better motor, and had more impact in college. I think WAre is a different type of animal, harder to make a direct comparison. But for Miami, a guy like Ware being projected to OLB certainly fits better because of athletic potential and his collegiate production, along with diverse pass rush capabilities.

That said, I don't have a problem with Gholston ending up going in the top 10 (that is, higher than Ware/Merriman). Simply put, I think the top of this draft will be reaches in general. I count only one guy that I consider a rock solid top 5 value no matter what draft (Glenn Dorsey).

[toonsterwu]

Have you seen Ware's workout numbers?

They are pretty much identical to Gholstons

Gholston: (1) 37 reps on the bench (2) 4.64 40 yard dash (3) 35.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 5 inch broad jump (5) 7.02 3 cone drill (6) 4.40 20 yard shuttle.

Ware: (1) 27 reps on the bench (2) 4.56 40 yard dash (3) 38.5 Veritcal (4) 10 foot 2 inch broad jump (5) 6.87 3 cone drill (6) 4.07 20 yard shuttle

Ware was 6'4" and 251 Lbs
Gholston is 6'3 and 266 Lbs

Gholston's workout numbers in the strength department crush Ware's and on everything speed and agility related, Gholston is just slightly behind but that could have something to do with the extra 15 pounds he has on his frame. Ware as a foot taller and yet only had a 3 inch higher Veritical.

Gholston is every bit the physical freak Ware was and maybe even more so.

I think you got Gholston's 3-cone wrong. It was 7.12. Also, I've seen Ware's broad jump listed as 10'7", although I'm assuming you are going by Ware's nflds listing of 10'2". And comparing bench rep numbers isn't that ideal due to Ware's length and build (which is why, IMO, Derrick Harvey is a freak). Ware did 430 lb's in college. Gholston was what, 455, I think. Ware squatted 570 to Gholston's 580.

Btw, I'm not saying one is freakier than the other. Both are athletic freaks.

[Packman1957]

I think the first priority for the Dolphins should be to solidify there offensive line. How the hell is John Beck supposed to QB this team, when he's got no protection. And same goes for Ronnie Brown. This offense will go nowhere unless this need is addressed immediately.

And if you guys were to go defense it should be Chris Long over Gholston. Never seen a rookie who is as smart as him, he uses his hands extremely well coming off the edge. Gholston relies on pure speed, and the fact that he totally dissapears in most games has to be a big cause of concern, especially if you want him to be a number one pick. I think there are better, more consisent players the Dolphins could take. Not saying Gholston won't be good, but I think one of the Longs would be the better pick.

[keylime_5]

I actually don't think that Miami's offensive line is that bad even though they don't have that many quality linemen. It definitely wouldn't hurt to build the defense in round one and get some OTs and OGs later in the draft to build depth. A great D-line is just as important as a great O-Line and by drafting a lineman of some sorts they are doing the right thing. Can't really go wrong with Jake Long, Chris Long, or Vernon Gholston.

[DragonFireKai]

I think the first priority for the Dolphins should be to solidify there offensive line. How the hell is John Beck supposed to QB this team, when he's got no protection. And same goes for Ronnie Brown. This offense will go nowhere unless this need is addressed immediately.


Beck's not a starting quality QB, he's too far behind the curve already, the rest of the team isn't going to help him, and throw his advanced age on top of all that.

As for Brown, he won't be going anywhere even if they picked up five all pros to block for him. RBs always suck the first year coming back from an ACL tear.

[swollja]

I actually don't think that Miami's offensive line is that bad even though they don't have that many quality linemen. It definitely wouldn't hurt to build the defense in round one and get some OTs and OGs later in the draft to build depth. A great D-line is just as important as a great O-Line and by drafting a lineman of some sorts they are doing the right thing. Can't really go wrong with Jake Long, Chris Long, or Vernon Gholston.
i'll take dorsey too

[swollja]

Beck's not a starting quality QB, he's too far behind the curve already, the rest of the team isn't going to help him, and throw his advanced age on top of all that.

As for Brown, he won't be going anywhere even if they picked up five all pros to block for him. RBs always suck the first year coming back from an ACL tear.
guess we'll see about both

[Joeyjr09]

Beck's not a starting quality QB, he's too far behind the curve already, the rest of the team isn't going to help him, and throw his advanced age on top of all that.

As for Brown, he won't be going anywhere even if they picked up five all pros to block for him. RBs always suck the first year coming back from an ACL tear.

lol, wow, just wow. So because Beck struggled his rookie year he is behind the curve and not a starting caliber QB? I would love to know the logic in that.

And Ronnie Brown is gonna suck next year beause other people not named Ronnie Brown have sucked when they get hurt?

Great logic man.

[Crickett]

lol, wow, just wow. So because Beck struggled his rookie year he is behind the curve and not a starting caliber QB? I would love to know the logic in that.

And Ronnie Brown is gonna suck next year beause other people not named Ronnie Brown have sucked when they get hurt?

Great logic man.

Well, the think about Beck is..... he going to be 27.

[swollja]

Well, the think about Beck is..... he going to be 27.
it's not like most qb stay with the same team their whole career anyway, just give us 5-6 good years and i'll be happy

[DragonFireKai]

lol, wow, just wow. So because Beck struggled his rookie year he is behind the curve and not a starting caliber QB? I would love to know the logic in that.

He did a bit more than struggle. He posted a QB rating of 62.0. His internal clock is skewed, as evidenced by his being sacked nearly twice as often Trent Green, behind the same line. His footwork's ugly. He had an adjusted net yards per attempt of 3.1, that's beyond bad. He posted a DPAR of -13.1, despite only playing in five games. He posted a DVOA of -39.2%. His footwork is sloppy. He's slow to go through his progressions. Pretty much the only good thing I saw out of him was that he doesn't have the Eli Manning tendancy to overthrow misses, which will keep his INTs fairly low.

Furthermore, how far off are the Dolphins from competing? 4 years, maybe more. By the time the Dolphins are ready to go, he'll be 31, and on the downslope of his career. He's at the rookie stage of his progression, and he's older than Ben Roethlisberger.

And Ronnie Brown is gonna suck next year beause other people not named Ronnie Brown have sucked when they get hurt?

Great logic man.

He's not going to suck because Edgerrin James and other running backs sucked after they were injured, he's going to suck for the same reason they sucked. There's a difference. It takes 2 years for a running back to get back to 85-90% after an ACL tear, due to the nature of the reconstruction and the effects it has on the ability to cut and plant. This will be year one for Brown.

You think Ronnie Brown is going to defy everything we know about biomechanics and sports injuries because of what? Because he's named Ronnie Brown, and all those other backs weren't? Because he plays for your favorite team? Because you asked Santa for Christmas?

[swollja]

"Furthermore, how far off are the Dolphins from competing? 4 years, maybe more. By the time the Dolphins are ready to go, he'll be 31, and on the downslope of his career. He's at the rookie stage of his progression, and he's older than Ben Roethlisberger."


i think beck will be in his prime from 30-35

he's starting late so what. less wear. plus he's not exactly a scrambler. i could see the arguement for a rb.

[Joeyjr09]

He did a bit more than struggle. He posted a QB rating of 62.0. His internal clock is skewed, as evidenced by his being sacked nearly twice as often Trent Green, behind the same line. His footwork's ugly. He had an adjusted net yards per attempt of 3.1, that's beyond bad. He posted a DPAR of -13.1, despite only playing in five games. He posted a DVOA of -39.2%. His footwork is sloppy. He's slow to go through his progressions. Pretty much the only good thing I saw out of him was that he doesn't have the Eli Manning tendancy to overthrow misses, which will keep his INTs fairly low.


Did the Dolphins or just look up these stats?

He played behind the same OL as Trent Green but anybody that knows anything about football can tell you why he was sacked twice as much. It has nothing to do with "his internal clock being skrewed up"

Plain and Simple. When John Beck played, he didn't have Ronnie Brown, he didn't have Chris Chambers, heck he didn't even have Jesse Chatman. He had nothing to keep defenses honest. And on top of all that, Cam Cameron was running the ball all the time or calling little dump offs. The offense was as vanilla as could be because Cam Cameron did not want to expose his rookie QB. Teams saw a rookie QB back there, with no weapons back for him to use, and no variances in play calling, so they pinned their ears back and just blew thru the line for sacks.

Even vet QBs are going to struggle in the situation he was thrown into. But go ahead, bring up your little stats. It's pretty clear you didn't watch the Dolphins last season very much if at all.Anyone would watched the Dolphins week in and week out could see he wasn't holding on to the ball too long, he was getting hit the minute he was dropping back. Teams were having their way with the offense by the time Beck cracked the lineup.

His footwork is bad? His progressions are slow? Dude, please tell me your not getting all this and making a judge on a rookie QB based on a 5 game sample? where teams were rushing him right and left and the guy's best playmaker was Marty Booker and a couple of 1st and 2nd year WRs who are very raw.

But at all means write the guy off completely because you have some bad stats on him and because he's a couple year's older then your average prospect.

[BallerT1215]

For the people that are trying to say Gholston is the next Demarcus Ware....Pssssssycho talk...

Even Bow will admit that he isn't the next Ware...

[Sidney]

By the way, why do the dolphin fans want Gholston over Long so bad?
If I was another team picking in the top 5, I would be ecstatic if Dolphins took Gholston. One trick ponies aren't worth a #1 pick in the nfl.


If your one trick is rushing the passer it is. Nothing changes a game like pass rush.

[BamaFalcon59]

The Dolphins need to bring Marcus Vick back. That would solve either QB or WR, whichever they played him at.

[DragonFireKai]

i think beck will be in his prime from 30-35

he's starting late so what. less wear. plus he's not exactly a scrambler. i could see the arguement for a rb.

Late starts don't help a whole lot. Most QBs reach their peak at age 30, and slip down from there, and are no longer viable by 34, 36 at the latest. Trent Green was no exception, nor was Kurt Warner, or Jake Delhomme.

Did the Dolphins or just look up these stats?

He played behind the same OL as Trent Green but anybody that knows anything about football can tell you why he was sacked twice as much. It has nothing to do with "his internal clock being skrewed up"

"Skrewed" God, that makes my brain hurt just reading it.

Green's sack numbers were the same in the first couple of games when Brown played terribly as they were in the next couple of games when Brown finally got going.

And Cleo Lemon, who's already very sack prone, got sacked less often than Beck, even after Brown went down.

Plain and Simple. When John Beck played, he didn't have Ronnie Brown, he didn't have Chris Chambers, heck he didn't even have Jesse Chatman. He had nothing to keep defenses honest. And on top of all that, Cam Cameron was running the ball all the time or calling little dump offs. The offense was as vanilla as could be because Cam Cameron did not want to expose his rookie QB. Teams saw a rookie QB back there, with no weapons back for him to use, and no variances in play calling, so they pinned their ears back and just blew thru the line for sacks.

Even vet QBs are going to struggle in the situation he was thrown into. But go ahead, bring up your little stats. It's pretty clear you didn't watch the Dolphins last season very much if at all.Anyone would watched the Dolphins week in and week out could see he wasn't holding on to the ball too long, he was getting hit the minute he was dropping back. Teams were having their way with the offense by the time Beck cracked the lineup.

His footwork is bad? His progressions are slow? Dude, please tell me your not getting all this and making a judge on a rookie QB based on a 5 game sample? where teams were rushing him right and left and the guy's best playmaker was Marty Booker and a couple of 1st and 2nd year WRs who are very raw.

But at all means write the guy off completely because you have some bad stats on him and because he's a couple year's older then your average prospect.


I watched him play at BYU, and he didn't impress me as a QB who could start in the NFL. I also saw him play at Miami, and he looked every bit as bad as I thought he would.

But let's hear why you think he can be succesful. All you've done is accuse me of not watching him play. Since you obviously have, how about you fill me in on what he does that makes him a starting quality QB for the dolphins.

[mqtirishfan]

he's starting late so what. less wear. plus he's not exactly a scrambler. i could see the arguement for a rb.

That makes such little sense I can't even comprehend it. He started later, but went through the same steps as everyone else in terms of football. He just went through those steps at an older age.

[swollja]

That makes such little sense I can't even comprehend it. He started later, but went through the same steps as everyone else in terms of football. He just went through those steps at an older age.

yes...? i was getting at he's going through the same steps as any other rookie qb. he'll peak in a couple years. he's not gonna rush for 800 yards ever so who cares if he's 30 or 27 when he hits that peak?

[mqtirishfan]

yes...? i was getting at he's going through the same steps as any other rookie qb. he'll peak in a couple years. he's not gonna rush for 800 yards ever so who cares if he's 30 or 27 when he hits that peak?

you said less wear. That's wrong. He has just as much wear as any other rookie in his class, only his body is older.

[Joeyjr09]

Green's sack numbers were the same in the first couple of games when Brown played terribly as they were in the next couple of games when Brown finally got going.

And Cleo Lemon, who's already very sack prone, got sacked less often than Beck, even after Brown went down.


So because Ronnie Brown was playing bad for a couple of games your gonna act like he didn't exsist? Ronnie Brown and Jesse Chatman were one of the best tandems in the league when healthy. EVen when they weren't playing their best, they were still a tandem that needed to be accounted for and game planned against. They open up the offense. Nobody in the NFL game plans for Samkon Gado.

Cleo Lemon, didn't get sacked because Cleo Lemon can run.He was evading rushers right and left. He ran had 4 rushing TDs and 31 attempts for over 100 yards during his 7 starts. John Beck had 1 rushing TDs and 9 attempts for 12 yards during his 4 starts.

In just about 100 attempts, John Beck was sacked 10 times. In just about 300 attempts, Cleo Lemon was sacked 25 times. The number is not were near as big as you make it out to be, and the big difference there is that Lemon could scramble to buy himself time or just take off running completely.

Look, Beck looked pretty bad last year. Granted. There's no denying that. But to write off a 26 year old QB based off of a 4 game stint during his rookie year is insane. At least give the guy a chance to prove he's a bust before you go around calling him a bust.

It's like the whole innocent until being proven guilty. Your condemning him before he even gets to present his case. All you've heard is the opening statements.

[Joeyjr09]

you said less wear. That's wrong.

He does have less wear. He was on a mission since he is mormom. NFL QBs age 27 have alot more wear then he does. Right now his body wear wise is on par with 23 or 24 year olds. Not 27 year olds. That because he took time off from football for his mission.

[mqtirishfan]

He does have less wear. He was on a mission since he is mormom. NFL QBs age 27 have alot more wear then he does. Right now his body wear wise is on par with 23 or 24 year olds. Not 27 year olds. That because he took time off from football for his mission.

But he still has the same amount of wear as other rookies, and he will still break down at a certain age, regardless of wear. There's no way those years off will stop him from getting to 35 sooner than other rookies from last year, and at that point, the body simply begins to slow down. I think he'll be fine until that point, though. Some others I think will have a more gradual slow-down, while his might be more sudden.

[Joeyjr09]

But he still has the same amount of wear as other rookies, and he will still break down at a certain age, regardless of wear. There's no way those years off will stop him from getting to 35 sooner than other rookies from last year, and at that point, the body simply begins to slow down. I think he'll be fine until that point, though. Some others I think will have a more gradual slow-down, while his might be more sudden.

Of course e has the same wear as other rookies. That means he has less wear. He is as old as some 3rd and 4th year players and still has the wear of a rookie. Rookie are 23 or 24. He is 27. So he is a 27 year old with the wear of a 24 year old. That means less wear.

Most 33 year old QBs have 33 years worth of wear on them and they start to break down. When Beck is 33 he's only gonna have the wear of a 30 year old. So yea most people's body start breaking down at a certain age but 33 is old old from a football standpoint because of the beatings they take. Beck has not taken those beatings. It's concievable that he could play be in his prime for a couple years more then most because he hasn't been broken down as much as most people his age.

That's what the guy mean.

[swollja]

you said less wear. That's wrong. He has just as much wear as any other rookie in his class, only his body is older.

and people make it sound like he has more wear because he's older. i'm saying he's as good for just as many years as the other rookies because they'll start die down around 32 like most players, beck will die off at the same time as them, but he'll be 35.

[swollja]

Of course e has the same wear as other rookies. That means he has less wear. He is as old as some 3rd and 4th year players and still has the wear of a rookie. Rookie are 23 or 24. He is 27. So he is a 27 year old with the wear of a 24 year old. That means less wear.

Most 33 year old QBs have 33 years worth of wear on them and they start to break down. When Beck is 33 he's only gonna have the wear of a 30 year old. So yea most people's body start breaking down at a certain age but 33 is old old from a football standpoint because of the beatings they take. Beck has not taken those beatings. It's concievable that he could play be in his prime for a couple years more then most because he hasn't been broken down as much as most people his age.

That's what the guy mean.

yeah, exactly

[DragonFireKai]

So because Ronnie Brown was playing bad for a couple of games your gonna act like he didn't exsist? Ronnie Brown and Jesse Chatman were one of the best tandems in the league when healthy. EVen when they weren't playing their best, they were still a tandem that needed to be accounted for and game planned against. They open up the offense. Nobody in the NFL game plans for Samkon Gado.

When you've got a running back averaging 3.3 yards per carry, you're going to pay much more attention to the passing game than when the running back is picking up 5 or 6 yards per carry. Throw in the fact that Ronnie Brown wasn't exactly striking fear into the hearts of men before last season, when he wasn't producing early in the game, and the team gets behind, he might as well not exist.

Cleo Lemon, didn't get sacked because Cleo Lemon can run.He was evading rushers right and left. He ran had 4 rushing TDs and 31 attempts for over 100 yards during his 7 starts. John Beck had 1 rushing TDs and 9 attempts for 12 yards during his 4 starts.

No, Cleo Lemon still gets sacked. Just like Michael Vick and Aaron Brooks got sacked. They got sacked because their internal clock is on a 4-5 second cycle as opposed to the 2-3 second cycle that you want in an NFL QB. In 2006, when Cleo Lemon was filling in, he got sacked 6.8% of the time. Joey Harrington, who clearly isn't a runner, got sacked 3.7%. That's because, as terrible as Harrington is at everything else, his internal clock is just about perfect.

In just about 100 attempts, John Beck was sacked 10 times. In just about 300 attempts, Cleo Lemon was sacked 25 times. The number is not were near as big as you make it out to be, and the big difference there is that Lemon could scramble to buy himself time or just take off running completely.

Yeah, Lemon's running ability was the difference. Add Sacks, Scrambles and Attempts. That'll tell you how often each QB was supposed to pass. Beck had 107 attempts, 10 sacks, and 9 scrambles, for 126 dropbacks. Lemon had 309 attempts, 25 sacks, and 31 scrambles, for 365 dropbacks. Beck got sacked on 7.9% of his dropbacks, Lemon on 6.8%. Beck got sacked 17% more than Lemon, and Lemon was already more sackprone than your average QB.

This goes back to Beck's skewed internal clock. Watch Peyton Manning, even before his O line was good, every time he drops back, as sure as the tides rise and fall, Manning gets rid of the ball in 3 seconds or less. A lot of running QBs, Aaron Brooks in particular, hold onto the ball for 4, 5, 12 seconds, because they're sure their athleticism will allow them to escape.

Beck has the internal clock of Aaron Brooks, in the body of Joey Harrington. You can fix that, but it'll take years, and you'll probably need a cattle prod.

Look, Beck looked pretty bad last year. Granted. There's no denying that. But to write off a 26 year old QB based off of a 4 game stint during his rookie year is insane. At least give the guy a chance to prove he's a bust before you go around calling him a bust.

It's like the whole innocent until being proven guilty. Your condemning him before he even gets to present his case. All you've heard is the opening statements.

You're acting like you have a $30 mil contract invested in the guy. He's got a 4.5 million dollar contract, and is making $370K in base salary this season. The Dolphins have more invested in Josh McCown. Who's only two years older. Players get as much time to prove themselves as they can leverage. The minimal salary he's making minimizes the amount of leverage he has, and as such, shinks his window. His advanced age shrinks the window even further. The smaller the window is, the better you have to play, sooner. Otherwise, the team needs to move on.

[swollja]

so basically, beck needs to show improvement this year. if he doesn't we'll draft someone else. if he does, he's not too old to be our qb for another 5-7 years.

[DragonFireKai]

so basically, beck needs to show improvement this year. if he doesn't we'll draft someone else. if he does, he's not too old to be our qb for another 5-7 years.

Basically, Beck needs to show massive improvement within the first 4-5 games, or he'll get tossed.

[holt_bruce81]

Basically, Beck needs to show massive improvement within the first 4-5 games, or he'll get tossed.


You don't believe in the phrase

"It takes time for a QB develop"

[DragonFireKai]

You don't believe in the phrase

"It takes time for a QB develop"

I believe a QB needs something to develop. If you look at the defenders of John Beck that I've been debating with, they don't say anything that he does well. All they say is that he can develop, and they shouldn't give up on him. Why not? He hasn't shown any real signs of life.

And we're talking about Parcells. He shipped out Bledsoe after a poor six games in favor of Tony Romo, He gave up on Drew Henson after 18 pass attempts.

[swollja]

But he still has the same amount of wear as other rookies, and he will still break down at a certain age, regardless of wear. There's no way those years off will stop him from getting to 35 sooner than other rookies from last year, and at that point, the body simply begins to slow down. I think he'll be fine until that point, though. Some others I think will have a more gradual slow-down, while his might be more sudden.

if he's fine till 35 us fin fans don't care

only thing his age hurts is his big free angency pay day guys get after their rookie contract

[swollja]

Basically, Beck needs to show massive improvement within the first 4-5 games, or he'll get tossed.

then mccown will get the same and they put beck back in

[Joeyjr09]

You don't believe in the phrase

"It takes time for a QB develop"

Don't even bother with the guy. Him and he's one of those stat guys that brings up and his little mathematical analysis and everything and thinks he has it all figured out. Notice for as much as he says we haven't brought up anything Beck does well, he has not brought up anything but stats from his only 4 games as an NFL rookie, which any baphoon can see with an naked eye were horrible.

But lets toss the guy out the window because he got sacked as a rookie and looked out of place as a rookie.

He basically throws common sense out the window in favor on his math.

[LonghornsLegend]

I believe a QB needs something to develop. If you look at the defenders of John Beck that I've been debating with, they don't say anything that he does well. All they say is that he can develop, and they shouldn't give up on him. Why not? He hasn't shown any real signs of life.

And we're talking about Parcells. He shipped out Bledsoe after a poor six games in favor of Tony Romo, He gave up on Drew Henson after 18 pass attempts.

Is it really fair to judge Beck behind that Miami line, with the weapons they had? No line, no Ronnie Brown or any other Rb for that matter, no TE, traded Chambers, best WR threat was a rookie WR who was still raw himself, average defense at best.


Now its ok for you to toss him to the side becaues he didnt play well behind all of that as a rookie QB? That doesn't even make sense, how many QB's do you know that would suceed in their 1st year, given those situations? Im not a Miami fan, or a Beck fan, but I know its completely irrational to judge him from Miami's team last year.

[thebow305]

Is a player who can only excel as a pass rusher in the league worth a #1 overall pick? And a couple of Freakish athlestic DEs have been around the past few years...
Also, I am pretty sure Parcells would want a guy who can is versatile and can cover.

In hindsight, if we had known what Merriman would become, do you think the Niners would have had any problem taking him over Alex Smith? I think not. I don't care if the guy never has a single interception in his career. If he can guarantee you double digit sacks every year, he is well worth the #1 pick. You can make that same argument for Merriman and I would have NO problem at all taking Merriman at #1.

[DragonFireKai]

Don't even bother with the guy. Him and he's one of those stat guys that brings up and his little mathematical analysis and everything and thinks he has it all figured out. Notice for as much as he says we haven't brought up anything Beck does well, he has not brought up anything but stats from his only 4 games as an NFL rookie, which any baphoon can see with an naked eye were horrible.

what exactly is a baphoon?

His internal clock is skewed. His footwork's ugly. He's slow to go through his progressions.



But lets toss the guy out the window because he got sacked as a rookie and looked out of place as a rookie.

He basically throws common sense out the window in favor on his math.

You want to talk common sense? OK. What do you see in Beck that makes you think he'll be sucessful starter? All you've done is say that the team sucked. But that leads you to this train of thought.

"The rest of the team sucked, so obviously the QB doesn't."

Why? What makes you think that Beck isn't another one in the long line of lousy players brought in by a failing front offense? What has he shown you? His tremendous upside? His freakish athleticism? The huge portion of the dolphins' cap they've sunk into him? What has he done to inspire you to attach the immediate future of the team to him?

Is it really fair to judge Beck behind that Miami line, with the weapons they had? No line, no Ronnie Brown or any other Rb for that matter, no TE, traded Chambers, best WR threat was a rookie WR who was still raw himself, average defense at best.


Now its ok for you to toss him to the side becaues he didnt play well behind all of that as a rookie QB? That doesn't even make sense, how many QB's do you know that would suceed in their 1st year, given those situations? Im not a Miami fan, or a Beck fan, but I know its completely irrational to judge him from Miami's team last year.

I saw him play plenty in college, and I didn't see anything then that would tell me that he was going to be a succesful starter in the NFL. His performance in Miami just confirmed that.

His footwork is sloppy, he holds onto the ball too long, and lacks the athleticism to compensate. He's slow through his progression, and stares down his recievers.

[LonghornsLegend]

I saw him play plenty in college, and I didn't see anything then that would tell me that he was going to be a succesful starter in the NFL. His performance in Miami just confirmed that.

His footwork is sloppy, he holds onto the ball too long, and lacks the athleticism to compensate. He's slow through his progression, and stares down his recievers.

As far as him playing in college, obviously scouts and GM's dont share the same sentiment as you...


And didn't you also rank Brady Quinn and Derek Anderson ahead of Big Ben in a QB poll? If so its quite pointless to go back and forth with you because you obviously have a different agenda then most people...


But once again I'll ask you, how many QB's do you see that would suceed, as a rookie lets remember, in that situation? Since you avoided the Question...Here's another one, how many rookie QB's play lights our their first year? Can't think of any, ok now think back to who was protecting Beck, you dont no blocking has anything to do with footwork? Or maybe you wanted him to perform miracles, because with his #1 receiving threat as a rookie WR who was raw himself, maybe he should rely on him to make the game easier...Or that deadly rushing attack they used.

[Joeyjr09]

But once again I'll ask you, how many QB's do you see that would suceed, as a rookie lets remember, in that situation? Since you avoided the Question...Here's another one, how many rookie QB's play lights our their first year? Can't think of any, ok now think back to who was protecting Beck, you dont no blocking has anything to do with footwork? Or maybe you wanted him to perform miracles, because with his #1 receiving threat as a rookie WR who was raw himself, maybe he should rely on him to make the game easier...Or that deadly rushing attack they used.

Don't even bother. If you can't turn it into a math forumla, he doesn't agree with it. No talent hacks don't get drafted in the top 40 picks of the NFL draft. The kid has potential and you don't throw that away based on a bad 4 game stretch during his rookie season in a situation where most seasoned vets would fail.


His footwork is sloppy, he holds onto the ball too long, and lacks the athleticism to compensate. He's slow through his progression, and stares down his recievers.

His footwork was sloppy because he was forced to move around and do things that he should not have been doing. During his 1st start ever, his footwork and timing looked outstanding because he wasn't getting hit every other dropback.

He holds on the to ball too long? Are you serious? He was having to get rid of the ball earlier then he wanted because of the pressure he was getting. He wasn't even given a chance to take a normal dropback, much less a long one. Watch the games instead of looking up stats. He's slow thru his progressions and he stars down WRs? 1st of all, he did not do that nearly as much as you make it out to be. He actually was very good at checking down and getting the ball to Lorenzo Booker, and while he did stare at guys at times, he wasn't give very much to work with as Cam Cameron was only letting him throw to one side of the field.

Dude, watch some games and see the reasons behind his struggles instead of acting like he should be a world beater as a rookie and bringing up his crappy stats.

[buckeyes4ever]

I believe that Gholston is a great player as he did come out of THE Ohio State but even so, with the amount of money that the #1 pick will get I dont beleive he will be worth that amount of money to the Dolphins, especially if they want him to stand up and play linebacker. I dont necesarily believe that Long is worth the money either but unless they can trade out of the spot i dont think theyd take gholston, there are alot of needs for the Dolphins but another pass rushing linbacker isnt one of them. My prediction is that the Chiefs will relize they need someone to protect Brodi Croyles backside or anyone else they put in the pocket and will trade up to pick up Jake Long.

[bigG]

I dont understand why the Dolphins would consider Gholston. He seems to me like a clone of Joey Porter, and they have alot of money tied into Porter.