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JT Jag
04-30-2008, 06:46 PM
Vic Ketchman, Jaguars.com's senior editor and the instigator of the whole "#1- New England Patriots*" power rankings "scandal" earlier this year, has this to say to Mel Kiper.

http://www.jaguars.com/news/article.aspx?id=6918

"Come on, Mel, do you honestly believe the Jaguars should’ve traded for Taylor? How many years could the Jaguars expect Taylor to play at the level of his salary? For that matter, for how many years could the Jaguars expect Taylor to be a productive every-downs end? Two, three?...

Let me give you a peek into what would’ve happened had the Jaguars traded for Taylor. ...

The regular season would’ve rolled around and after about three or four games, some hack of a sportswriter would’ve dared ask Jack Del Rio this question: “Coach, Jason Taylor only has one sack through the first three games. Are you concerned?”

Del Rio, of course, would’ve been forced into a hard denial and the sportswriter would’ve immediately become one of those poop-negative scribes who just doesn’t want the team to win. Three games and one sack later, the question would be asked again and the routine would repeat itself for the remainder of the season.

Gee, I think I’ve seen this movie before.

By season’s end, Taylor’s first year with the Jaguars would be rationalized as an adjustment year. His second season will be much different. You’ll see.

No we don’t. By midseason of year two, we’re starting to get the idea that football, the young man’s game, is nearing an end for a guy on whom the Jaguars spent a first-round pick to acquire. Meanwhile, Harvey is developing into one of the top defensive ends in the game. In the second year of his career, he’s near the top of the league in sacks and now it’s become obvious to one and all, even the fans who want to trade for every old-timer in the league who possesses a recognizable name, that a terrible mistake has been made."

brat316
04-30-2008, 06:49 PM
OHhhhhh that kind of slam

PoopSandwich
04-30-2008, 07:42 PM
OHhhhhh that kind of slam

You just came to see if there was a video.

CC.SD
04-30-2008, 07:53 PM
Shut up Mel, Harvey will be better, you'll see!!!

Like it or not, Championship windows aren't open very often. Do they have time to wait for Harvey to develop? I guess we'll see. Jason Taylor is still beasting it.

JagHombre22
04-30-2008, 08:14 PM
vic ketchman is one of the best team sports writers out there...he mixes his sarcasm perfectly with unbiasedness...<<<< is that a word?

BaLLiN
04-30-2008, 08:17 PM
For a late second rounder to get Jason Taylor is really good for maybe a year only. He is an incredible athlete and really good at rushing the passer, but to spend a 2nd rounder on probably a 1 year player, its really not that good of a deal.

Maybe if they did one of those incentives things, not on production but on how many years he plays. If he plays 1 then its worth a 3rd rounder, if he plays 2 then 2nd rounder seems like a much easier deal for the Jags.

Paranoidmoonduck
04-30-2008, 08:18 PM
I would necessarily call it "unbiased" to claim the the player your team didn't get would have sucked and the player your team did get will be awesome, but I don't think the Jaguars picking the young tandem of Harvey and Groves over pursuing a possibly unfocused and aging edge rusher was that bad a move either.

JT Jag
04-30-2008, 08:21 PM
For a late second rounder to get Jason Taylor is really good for maybe a year only. He is an incredible athlete and really good at rushing the passer, but to spend a 2nd rounder on probably a 1 year player, its really not that good of a deal.

Maybe if they did one of those incentives things, not on production but on how many years he plays. If he plays 1 then its worth a 3rd rounder, if he plays 2 then 2nd rounder seems like a much easier deal for the Jags.So the Dolphins would accept a 2010 draft pick for Taylor?

LonghornsLegend
04-30-2008, 08:23 PM
Well this argument is too early to have anyway, if Harvey ends up being and elite edge rusher, and Groves ends up pretty damn good, I'd take that over 2-3 years of Jason Taylor...Of course hindsight is 20/20, but judging ahead of time, I'd rather have Harvey and Groves over Jason Taylor, its not like the Jags are some incredibly old team...They are young in alot of key positions, I'd prefer the young guys, they are both local with one guy being from Florida and should have motivation to want to work as hard as they can.

BaLLiN
04-30-2008, 08:43 PM
So the Dolphins would accept a 2010 draft pick for Taylor?

No, hopefully Taylor could make his decision about coming back before the draft, which is hard to ask from him, but id be a 2009 pick. I think it would be fine for both teams. Dolphins because theyd get something out of it, and Taylor may not be a great fit at OLB, also a team rebuilding doesnt need an old talent being payed as much as he is. Jags because they get an elite pass rusher.

Boston
04-30-2008, 09:31 PM
Hey,somebody disagrees with Mel Kiper! Let's all care!

The Unseen
05-01-2008, 05:47 AM
Hey,somebody disagrees with Mel Kiper! Let's all care!

Seriously. This was not worth a thread in the NFL forum.

Crickett
05-01-2008, 08:10 AM
For a late second rounder to get Jason Taylor is really good for maybe a year only. He is an incredible athlete and really good at rushing the passer, but to spend a 2nd rounder on probably a 1 year player, its really not that good of a deal.

It worked for the Patriots when the got Corey Dillon.

DeathbyStat
05-01-2008, 09:22 AM
The Jags are a pass rush away from the super bowl and Taylor can get you at least 10 sacks easily. We'll see if Harvey can get at least that his first year.

This will really look bad if Taylor has a monster year and Groves and Harvey's sacks combined don't match taylor's.

The Jags are simply in win now mode.

Sniper
05-01-2008, 09:58 AM
The Jags are a pass rush away from the super bowl and Taylor can get you at least 10 sacks easily. We'll see if Harvey can get at least that his first year.

This will really look bad if Taylor has a monster year and Groves and Harvey's sacks combined don't match taylor's.

The Jags are simply in win now mode.

That's exactly right. Everyone gets caught up in the "we need to get younger players" deal. Not everyone needs to. A window of opportunity lasts a maximum of five years for a core of a team. Jason Taylor helps this team in their current window more than Harvey and Groves could

JagHombre22
05-01-2008, 01:43 PM
That's exactly right. Everyone gets caught up in the "we need to get younger players" deal. Not everyone needs to. A window of opportunity lasts a maximum of five years for a core of a team. Jason Taylor helps this team in their current window more than Harvey and Groves could

well, they obviously think that there window will be open for more than one year or they would have traded for Jason Taylor. Instead they chose to build the pass rush for many years to come...

Watchman
05-01-2008, 02:23 PM
"Meanwhile, Harvey is developing into one of the top defensive ends in the game. In the second year of his career, he’s near the top of the league in sacks..."


Bold prediction for any rookie. Nice crystal ball.

Dam8610
05-01-2008, 03:53 PM
"Meanwhile, Harvey is developing into one of the top defensive ends in the game. In the second year of his career, hes near the top of the league in sacks..."

Personally, I'd be amazed if that ever happens, let alone in his 2nd year.

Geo
05-01-2008, 04:04 PM
Who's to say Quentin Groves won't out-pass rush, at least stat-wise, Harvey? Wouldn't be the first time the Jags hit it in the 2nd after missing in the 1st, that's for sure.

As for the topic, I've long stopped caring what Kiper says. Bashing the Jags for not trading for Taylor instead is just flat-out stupid imo. And it's hilarious how he blows the Ravens though, I bet if they drafted Brohm or Henne instead of Flacco he'd be ringing either one of their praises.

Not to say I care what Ketchman says either, though. I don't know if he's a heavy-set man, but he's sure full of himself.

The Unseen
05-01-2008, 04:12 PM
Not to say I care what Ketchman says either, though. I don't know if he's a heavy-set man, but he's sure full of himself.

He's skinny...he has hard set opinions on certain things, but can vaciliate a bit. He used to write for the Steelers and sometimes like to talk about stuff about them, and sometimes shows homer opinions about the Jaguars. He's patently "old school."

...I'm sure you didn't want to know all that, but I've read his stuff for about four years, so I got it down.

Geo
05-01-2008, 04:25 PM
I'm familiar with Ketchman, having caught his stuff every so often, and wasn't lost on his old school appreciation (especially when he waxes on the past) ... but he realizes the league now is about passing the ball/protecting the QB and defending the pass/getting to the QB. I'll give him that.

He's not an idiot like some other guys (ex. Peter King).

TitanHope
05-01-2008, 05:03 PM
His entire argument is based on either Harvey or Groves being DROY, essentially. Because barring an injury to Jason Taylor, both rookie DE's will have to play at those levels to outperform Taylor. If Harvey/Groves combine for double-digit sacks and contribute significantly, then the trade was great. If Taylor goes for 11 Sacks again, and Harvey/Groves don't produce, then it still wasn't a bad trade - DE's take a little time to develop.

Kiper's argument was that Jason Taylor is already a double-digit sack pass-rusher, and will likely stay that way for the next 2 years. He's durable and is situational in a 4-3, so he wouldn't be taking a lot of wear and tear if used wisely. He just thought it would be a better decision for the Jags to bring in an immediate pass-rusher. The 2-3 good years they'd get from Taylor would be during their team's prime, as opposed to waiting for the rookie's DE's to develop. Then, factor in the trade up from 26 to 8 which cost them multiple 3rd RD picks and Kiper's lack of confidence in Harvey.

As I said, if Harvey/Groves play well their rookie years and beyond, then it was a good trade/picks. If Harvey/Groves's develop too late and the Jags arguably miss their shot at a Super Bowl, then it was a bad trade/picks. The Jags got Harvey and Groves over Jason Taylor, Groves, Pat Sims/Reggie Smith/Antuan Molden, and Marcus Harrison/Mario Manningham/Andre Caldwell. Plus, pass-rushers like Chris Ellis and Cliff Avril were still available in the 3rd RD. But that hindsight...

Right now, we have no clue. I wasn't a fan of Harvey, but think Groves is a stud. They traded up for both guys. It'll all be decided in the future, but right now, I can't really fault Kiper for disliking what they did.

toonsterwu
05-01-2008, 05:05 PM
Short of it is, I think they made the right move for Harvey.

holt_bruce81
05-01-2008, 06:05 PM
Kiper is an idiot.

I think Mcshay is smarter than Kiper, but Kipers been there longer so he has more credibility. I remember when He and Mcshay were debating who should go number 1 (this was like the 1st week of april) Mcshay said Jake Long should go #1 and Kiper was yelling at him saying "you have Jake as your #4 prospect in your rankings? you would have the 4th best player going #1? why would you do that?".......and then like a week later Kiper had Dorsey going #1 and dorsey was #5 on Kipers big board lol.

And then when they all did that mock draft, Kiper was freaking out that they let Branden Albert slip past the top 10 and then when Floyd Reese explained its hard to project a Guard to Tackle in the NFL......sure enough the next day Kiper had Albert falling to #12 overall.

DragonFireKai
05-01-2008, 06:31 PM
The article is so screwed up. Mel was advocating trading the second rounder for Taylor, not the first. It wasn't a matter of Harvey or Taylor, it was a matter of Harvey and Groves or Taylor, LoJack or Merling, and picks that turned into Tavares Gooden, Steve Slaton, and Arman Shields.

yourfavestoner
05-01-2008, 06:57 PM
I would necessarily call it "unbiased" to claim the the player your team didn't get would have sucked and the player your team did get will be awesome, but I don't think the Jaguars picking the young tandem of Harvey and Groves over pursuing a possibly unfocused and aging edge rusher was that bad a move either.

Thank you PMD.

The thing that I don't get is how everybody just assumes that Jason Taylor fixes the Jaguars pass rush problems and racks up double digit sacks. We already tried getting an aging, unfocused pass rusher in Hugh Douglas. Gee, that worked out well, didn't it?

The entire idea of getting Jason Taylor was stupid from the beginning. If anything, people should be bitching about the Jags not trading for Jared Allen.

JagHombre22
05-01-2008, 08:31 PM
Thank you PMD.

The thing that I don't get is how everybody just assumes that Jason Taylor fixes the Jaguars pass rush problems and racks up double digit sacks. We already tried getting an aging, unfocused pass rusher in Hugh Douglas. Gee, that worked out well, didn't it?

The entire idea of getting Jason Taylor was stupid from the beginning. If anything, people should be bitching about the Jags not trading for Jared Allen.

yes, but I can understand why they did not get Jared Allen and it's fairly simple...JDR and Wayne Weaver don't reward those types of players...character issue players...

PACKmanN
05-01-2008, 08:37 PM
How can he say that Taylor would last 2-3 years and say that Havrey will be great in his 2nd season? can this guy predict the future?

yourfavestoner
05-01-2008, 09:16 PM
How can he say that Taylor would last 2-3 years and say that Havrey will be great in his 2nd season? can this guy predict the future?

Read the article. Everything that Ketchman is saying is hypothetical, and he's coming to those hypothetical conclusions using common sense.

bearsfan_51
05-01-2008, 10:34 PM
Common sense would tell you that there's a 50% chance that Harvey won't do **** in the pros.

JagHombre22
05-01-2008, 10:47 PM
Common sense would tell you that there's a 50% chance that Harvey won't do **** in the pros.

and there is a 50% chance that Taylor is done...