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neko4
05-06-2008, 04:30 PM
This one could go many ways. Vikes have the best two starters, but not much depth to speak of.
Green Bay and Chicago have pretty good depth.

Yatta!
05-06-2008, 04:32 PM
I think we should just skip this one and move on. Surely its the Vikings, best tandem in the league although the depth leaves something to be desired.

KCJ58
05-06-2008, 05:02 PM
Kevin & Pat get the vote

princefielder28
05-06-2008, 05:04 PM
Vikings w/o a doubt

BeerBaron
05-06-2008, 06:13 PM
fat pat and kevin williams win it for the vikes. theyre such a good pair of starters that no depth can really outdo that...

Zbikowski_9
05-06-2008, 06:14 PM
Deph isnt bad, Wyms has started most of his career and they are high on their young guys. I cant belive 2 people voted Packers. Take off your green shades lol

neko4
05-06-2008, 07:04 PM
You need to take off your shades. You voted Minnesota to have the best group of DE's. They have ONE good DE. Ray Edwards would struggle to start in Green Bay and Udeze is out. If Udeze wasnt out then I could maybe see Minnesota, but aside from Allen I dont really fear Minny's DEs. Plus he's maybe a bit better than Kampman.

BeerBaron
05-06-2008, 07:10 PM
i think the vikes may have this one man....call it

and im interested to see the LBs and CBs. should be an easy call both times i feel but the homerism that keeps popping up may make it interesting....

awfullyquiet
05-06-2008, 07:10 PM
Here's the thing. The vikes are very one dimensional DT's. Neither are good pass-rushers.

Sure they can absolutely crush the rushing game. but they add zero value to the pass rush.

neko4
05-06-2008, 07:12 PM
http://media.scout.com/Media/Image/37/370029.jpg
http://blog.oregonlive.com/nfl/2007/09/joeysacked.JPG

Minny wins!

Zbikowski_9
05-06-2008, 07:13 PM
You need to take off your shades. You voted Minnesota to have the best group of DE's. They have ONE good DE. Ray Edwards would struggle to start in Green Bay and Udeze is out. If Udeze wasnt out then I could maybe see Minnesota, but aside from Allen I dont really fear Minny's DEs. Plus he's maybe a bit better than Kampman.

You said yourself that these polls are for what we think will happen by the end of the season.

And I think that Ray Edwards will be highly respected as he will face one on one match ups against right tackles and realy up his stats. I think Robinson showed me enough that he is a great situational rusher and will make a nice impact when injected on passing games.

I LOVE Kampman, but Jenkins disapeared last year and KGB is ageing, hense why i didn't pick them.

So know that i justified myself, you can tell me why the Packers have a better Defensive tackle unit than the Vikes.

neko4
05-06-2008, 07:17 PM
Depth and potential.
Harrell was coming off an injury last year and has alot of potential.
Cullen Jenkins when shifted inside on passing situations provided adequte pass rush. Also what he didnt do in getting pressure from the end spot he kind of made up for in great play against the run.
Johnny Jolly will take over right where Corey WIlliams left off, if he lives up to potential.
Colin Cole is a servicable backup.
Ryan Pickett is a very good run stuffer.

Zbikowski_9
05-06-2008, 07:17 PM
Here's the thing. The vikes are very one dimensional DT's. Neither are good pass-rushers.

Sure they can absolutely crush the rushing game. but they add zero value to the pass rush.

LOL. Kevin Williams has twice had double digit sack numbers and he could post big numbers again now that line will have to push out to deal with Allen, Ellis Wyms knows how to get at the QB and Fred Evans even showed some pass rush ability.

Zbikowski_9
05-06-2008, 07:24 PM
Depth and potential.
Harrell was coming off an injury last year and has alot of potential.
Cullen Jenkins when shifted inside on passing situations provided adequte pass rush. Also what he didnt do in getting pressure from the end spot he kind of made up for in great play against the run.
Johnny Jolly will take over right where Corey WIlliams left off, if he lives up to potential.
Colin Cole is a servicable backup.
Ryan Pickett is a very good run stuffer.

Look it is by no means a bad group, and i think any coach would be stoked with that commity, however, do you honestly beleive that they are better than an All-Pro and a second team All-Pro tandum, who are backed up by Ellis Wyms (a member of a dominant Tampa outfit, and two guys with potential that the team is high on (just like you have lited 2 people with potential)

regoob2
05-06-2008, 07:25 PM
I dont care about depth in this vote its minny.

neko4
05-06-2008, 07:28 PM
Look it is by no means a bad group, and i think any coach would be stoked with that commity, however, do you honestly beleive that they are better than an All-Pro and a second team All-Pro tandum, who are backed up by Ellis Wyms (a member of a dominant Tampa outfit, and two guys with potential that the team is high on (just like you have lited 2 people with potential)
Yes, i can believe. Especially considering Fat pat is 36. Although DT's can be good run stuffers till theyre old, there is a good chance that he can have a dropoff in play. And im not entirely trying to say our group is better, im just saying its not unreasonable to think that way. Like its not unreasonable to think Favre is the best QB ever. May or may not be right, but its not a crazy statement

Zbikowski_9
05-06-2008, 07:45 PM
Yes, i can believe. Especially considering Fat pat is 36. Although DT's can be good run stuffers till theyre old, there is a good chance that he can have a dropoff in play. And im not entirely trying to say our group is better, im just saying its not unreasonable to think that way. Like its not unreasonable to think Favre is the best QB ever. May or may not be right, but its not a crazy statement

Its cool, at least you justified it, i'll tell you one thing after going through these polls, all the people saying the North is week are gonna have to eat their words, 3 of the best D's in the NFL

toonsterwu
05-09-2008, 08:57 AM
So, I guess I'm a rebel with a cause. Going against the grain here and picking Green Bay. I think they have the ability and depth to be a superb unit. Minnesota lacks depth. Chicago might be there, but so much is unknown about Dvoracek and Harrison. I will say this, though. If Dusty is healthy or Marcus is on his game, along with Tommie Harris healthy, the Bears might end up being the best DT grouping.

regoob2
05-09-2008, 08:58 AM
So, I guess I'm a rebel with a cause. Going against the grain here and picking Green Bay. I think they have the ability and depth to be a superb unit. Minnesota lacks depth. Chicago might be there, but so much is unknown about Dvoracek and Harrison. I will say this, though. If Dusty is healthy or Marcus is on his game, along with Tommie Harris healthy, the Bears might end up being the best DT grouping.If Tommie can stay healthy for a full season.

Crazy_Chris
05-09-2008, 12:43 PM
Williams Wrecking Crew FTW!

Vikes99ej
05-09-2008, 12:50 PM
Here's the thing. The vikes are very one dimensional DT's. Neither are good pass-rushers.

Sure they can absolutely crush the rushing game. but they add zero value to the pass rush.

You saying Kevin Williams isn't a good pass rusher is like me saying Chad Pennington has a strong arm.

The Vikings win this one, hands down. I can't believe 9 people voted for the Packers and Lions.

asmitty45
05-09-2008, 08:51 PM
Vikings, not even close

Packman1957
05-11-2008, 08:55 PM
Gotta give this one to the Vikings.

As far as depth is concerned, I like the Packers though.

johbur
06-03-2008, 11:45 PM
I voted Chicago with the belief that Tommie Harris will be healthy. He is far and away the best DT in the division and probably competes with Justin Tuck for league honors. I don't care about the "run stopping" DT. I saw an 18-0 team get smacked in large part because of what an amazing interior pass rusher can do. Tuck gave it to GB all game too. Tommie Harris has DPOY potential, which I don't see in any other DT in the division.

Dr. Gonzo
06-04-2008, 10:52 PM
I don't know if you realize this but Kevin and Pat Williams play in the division. They are arguably two of the top 5 DT's in the league.

Crazy_Chris
06-05-2008, 10:23 AM
I voted Chicago with the belief that Tommie Harris will be healthy. He is far and away the best DT in the division and probably competes with Justin Tuck for league honors. I don't care about the "run stopping" DT. I saw an 18-0 team get smacked in large part because of what an amazing interior pass rusher can do. Tuck gave it to GB all game too. Tommie Harris has DPOY potential, which I don't see in any other DT in the division.

You know it's all right for some one to think Tommie Harris is a better DT than Kevin Williams however it isn't "far and away". But anyways he competes with Justin Tuck for league honors, what??? More like he competes with Albert Haynesworth and Kevin Williams for the best DT in the league.

Gay Ork Wang
06-05-2008, 01:01 PM
haha he prolly meant best pass rushing DT

Addict
06-06-2008, 01:10 PM
I voted Chicago with the belief that Tommie Harris will be healthy. He is far and away the best DT in the division and probably competes with Justin Tuck for league honors. I don't care about the "run stopping" DT. I saw an 18-0 team get smacked in large part because of what an amazing interior pass rusher can do. Tuck gave it to GB all game too. Tommie Harris has DPOY potential, which I don't see in any other DT in the division.

what league honors does a backup rotational guy get? Best situational pass rusher?

johbur
06-18-2008, 09:00 PM
Ummm... For Tuck, howabout league wide honors for kicking tail in the plaoffs when it counts? With Strahan retired, Tuck will be starting, maybe he moves to DE and won't even be a DT. Or maybe he stays in the middle. Did you watch the Super Bowl? There wasn't any "situational pass rushing" from him. He made Brady nervous all by himself. Giants win. Pats lose.

Tommie Harris killed when the Bears went to the Super Bowl, as well. Kevin and Pat Williams? Fine if you have absolutely no interest in rushing the passer. Harris is a potential DPOY. Williams twins are not.

Cunningham
06-19-2008, 01:46 AM
Ummm... For Tuck, howabout league wide honors for kicking tail in the plaoffs when it counts? With Strahan retired, Tuck will be starting, maybe he moves to DE and won't even be a DT. Or maybe he stays in the middle. Did you watch the Super Bowl? There wasn't any "situational pass rushing" from him. He made Brady nervous all by himself. Giants win. Pats lose.

Tommie Harris killed when the Bears went to the Super Bowl, as well. Kevin and Pat Williams? Fine if you have absolutely no interest in rushing the passer. Harris is a potential DPOY. Williams twins are not.
every now on then i read a post that is just too good to pass up, one where some guy is talking completely out of his ass. this is one of those posts. let's see here....

you do realize kevin williams has averaged 6.8 sacks per season while tommie harris has averaged 4.8? and, just for fun, since it affects the passing game, kevin williams has averaged 5.8 passes defended per season while tommie harris has averaged less then 1. should also tommie harris has never had a defensive touchdown.

Crazy_Chris
06-19-2008, 01:53 AM
Ummm... For Tuck, howabout league wide honors for kicking tail in the plaoffs when it counts? With Strahan retired, Tuck will be starting, maybe he moves to DE and won't even be a DT. Or maybe he stays in the middle. Did you watch the Super Bowl? There wasn't any "situational pass rushing" from him. He made Brady nervous all by himself. Giants win. Pats lose.

Tommie Harris killed when the Bears went to the Super Bowl, as well. Kevin and Pat Williams? Fine if you have absolutely no interest in rushing the passer. Harris is a potential DPOY. Williams twins are not.

Kevin Williams can definatly rush the passer, maybe not as well as Tommie Harris. But now that he has Allen to take some double teams off him expect 6-8 sacks from him along with the usual dominance against the run.

TheGreatEscape
06-19-2008, 01:56 AM
If harris is back and 100% I'm picking the bears, atm I'm going with the vikings.

TheGreatEscape
06-19-2008, 01:57 AM
Ummm... For Tuck, howabout league wide honors for kicking tail in the plaoffs when it counts? With Strahan retired, Tuck will be starting, maybe he moves to DE and won't even be a DT. Or maybe he stays in the middle. Did you watch the Super Bowl? There wasn't any "situational pass rushing" from him. He made Brady nervous all by himself. Giants win. Pats lose.

Tommie Harris killed when the Bears went to the Super Bowl, as well. Kevin and Pat Williams? Fine if you have absolutely no interest in rushing the passer. Harris is a potential DPOY. Williams twins are not.

As a giants fan I can tell you Tuck is going to be starting at DE and playing DT on rushing downs as situational rushing DT, just like last year.

johbur
06-20-2008, 03:10 AM
every now on then i read a post that is just too good to pass up, one where some guy is talking completely out of his ass. this is one of those posts. let's see here....

you do realize kevin williams has averaged 6.8 sacks per season while tommie harris has averaged 4.8? and, just for fun, since it affects the passing game, kevin williams has averaged 5.8 passes defended per season while tommie harris has averaged less then 1. should also tommie harris has never had a defensive touchdown.

And do you realize that Kevin Williams has averaged 4 sacks per year over the past three years? He had three sacks last year. That does not skirr me. If you want to take a time-travel detour back to 2003 and 2004, Kevin Williams was great then. He's not great anymore. He did get two interceptions with the TDs, kudos to him.

Now, Tommie Harris has only gotten better, and he is getting better playing fewer games than Kevin Williams. The last three years he's averaged over 5 sacks a game. And he's not even healthy. He was instrumental in getting the Bears to the SB. He also gave GB's offensive line a lot more trouble than Williams did. Bears won those two games, partly because of the interior pressure. Packers won the two games against the Vikings last year, partly because there was no interior pressure.

You can take the declining Kevin Williams, I'll take the ascending Tommie Harris.

Cunningham
06-20-2008, 12:26 PM
And do you realize that Kevin Williams has averaged 4 sacks per year over the past three years? He had three sacks last year. That does not skirr me. If you want to take a time-travel detour back to 2003 and 2004, Kevin Williams was great then. He's not great anymore. He did get two interceptions with the TDs, kudos to him.

Now, Tommie Harris has only gotten better, and he is getting better playing fewer games than Kevin Williams. The last three years he's averaged over 5 sacks a game. And he's not even healthy. He was instrumental in getting the Bears to the SB. He also gave GB's offensive line a lot more trouble than Williams did. Bears won those two games, partly because of the interior pressure. Packers won the two games against the Vikings last year, partly because there was no interior pressure.

You can take the declining Kevin Williams, I'll take the ascending Tommie Harris.
these are the accumulated stats for the past four seasons, ever since harris came into the league. this doesn't include kevin williams rookie year in which he played defensive end for all but four games

--------------- G Takl Sack PDef Int FF FR TD
K Williams ----- 60 186 23.5 26 - 3 - 3 - 8 - 4
Tommie Harris - 60 139 19.5 03 - 0 - 5 - 3 - 0

now as far as predicting what kind of numbers they'll put up next season, tommie harris has improved the last two seasons, but williams is now surrounded by talent that is just good as the talent that has surrrounded harris his entire career.

johbur
06-26-2008, 11:20 PM
It is my opinion that Tommie Harris is a better DT than Kevin Williams. If you want to go back to TH's rookie year, more power to you. For this upcoming year, it is my belief that TH will continue to ascend and KW might get a little better with Allen on the line, but I don't see him getting all that better. It is my opinion that he is descending. IMO, that's why the Bears tossed TH 40 million bones. It's not just the talent around him, it's that one is getting better, and one is declining. Now, the other part is my observations of Harris against the Packers O-line and Williams against the Packers O-line, which was in flux throughout the year without anything close to a pro-bowler at OG. GB beat the Vikings twice, and the game in which KW showed anything, the Vikings lost 34-0. Harris pressured Favre on the first Bears game into an interception to Urlacher that helped the Bears win that game and the attention that Harris received in the second game allowed the rest of the line to go into an attack mode.

Renji: Thanks for the neg rep. I wasn't sure I was in the right on this, but whatever side you're on, the wisest course is to be on the other side. Back to ignore for you.

Crazy_Chris
06-28-2008, 10:12 AM
And do you realize that Kevin Williams has averaged 4 sacks per year over the past three years? He had three sacks last year. That does not skirr me. If you want to take a time-travel detour back to 2003 and 2004, Kevin Williams was great then. He's not great anymore. He did get two interceptions with the TDs, kudos to him.

Now, Tommie Harris has only gotten better, and he is getting better playing fewer games than Kevin Williams. The last three years he's averaged over 5 sacks a game. And he's not even healthy. He was instrumental in getting the Bears to the SB. He also gave GB's offensive line a lot more trouble than Williams did. Bears won those two games, partly because of the interior pressure. Packers won the two games against the Vikings last year, partly because there was no interior pressure.

You can take the declining Kevin Williams, I'll take the ascending Tommie Harris.

It is my opinion that Tommie Harris is a better DT than Kevin Williams. If you want to go back to TH's rookie year, more power to you. For this upcoming year, it is my belief that TH will continue to ascend and KW might get a little better with Allen on the line, but I don't see him getting all that better. It is my opinion that he is descending. IMO, that's why the Bears tossed TH 40 million bones. It's not just the talent around him, it's that one is getting better, and one is declining. Now, the other part is my observations of Harris against the Packers O-line and Williams against the Packers O-line, which was in flux throughout the year without anything close to a pro-bowler at OG. GB beat the Vikings twice, and the game in which KW showed anything, the Vikings lost 34-0. Harris pressured Favre on the first Bears game into an interception to Urlacher that helped the Bears win that game and the attention that Harris received in the second game allowed the rest of the line to go into an attack mode.

Renji: Thanks for the neg rep. I wasn't sure I was in the right on this, but whatever side you're on, the wisest course is to be on the other side. Back to ignore for you.

Damn, I sure wish you were the packers offensive coordinator since Kevin Williams doesn't "skirr" you. Unfortunatly real offensive coordinators wouldn't be foolish enough to not be "skirred" of him.

swiftizm
04-13-2009, 01:27 AM
The best DT in the Division is Tommie Harris...followed By both Williams.

However, i take the question as if I were starting a franchise right now from scratch, which DT's would I want...and i'd have to go with the Bears DT's.

Tommie Harris is amazing when healthy, and he's only 25.
Kevin Williams is on par with him and also pretty young (27ish?)

But the difference is the #2 guy...Pat Williams is OOOLLLLLD and should be done soon.

On the other hand the Bears have a young stud in the making in Marcus Harrison...he dominated in flashes last year and is going to have a break out season this year.
The Bears also have depth, with Dusty Dvoracek, Anthony Adams and even the extremely versatile and gifted Israel Idonije.

Somse
04-13-2009, 10:37 AM
The best DT in the Division is Tommie Harris...followed By both Williams.

However, i take the question as if I were starting a franchise right now from scratch, which DT's would I want...and i'd have to go with the Bears DT's.

Tommie Harris is amazing when healthy, and he's only 25.
Kevin Williams is on par with him and also pretty young (27ish?)

But the difference is the #2 guy...Pat Williams is OOOLLLLLD and should be done soon.

On the other hand the Bears have a young stud in the making in Marcus Harrison...he dominated in flashes last year and is going to have a break out season this year.
The Bears also have depth, with Dusty Dvoracek, Anthony Adams and even the extremely versatile and gifted Israel Idonije.

Just more ridiculous homerism...

You realize the Bears were terrible against the run last season and Harris was as inconsistent as ever?

Vikings have the best DT duo in the league, let alone the division.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
04-13-2009, 10:40 AM
Just more ridiculous homerism...

You realize the Bears were terrible against the run last season and Harris was as inconsistent as ever?

Vikings have the best DT duo in the league, let alone the division.

Thats wrong, Bears were top 5 against the run.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=teamrush&sort=ypg&pos=def&league=nfl&year=2008&season=2

Somse
04-13-2009, 10:43 AM
Thats wrong, Bears were top 5 against the run.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=teamrush&sort=ypg&pos=def&league=nfl&year=2008&season=2

Whoops, meant the pass. My mistake, good catch.

Still, arguing Chicago DTs over Minnesota is just mind boggling.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
04-13-2009, 10:50 AM
Whoops, meant the pass. My mistake, good catch.

Still, arguing Chicago DTs over Minnesota is just mind boggling.

Bears pass rush is what sucked leading to terrible pass defense plus their secondary has some holes and Vasher can't stay healthy/probably will neve be the same.

Ogunleye 5 sacks, Alex Brown 6 sacks and Harris 5 sacks was decent but somebody needs to be a double digit sack guy, and also was not consistent. Plus Mark Andeson blew as a situational rusher with only 1 sack.

Detroit had 2 more sacks than Chicago with way less talent.

Harris is just as good as Kevin Williams when healthy. Problem is health and Harris nose tackle hasn't been the greatest. However, last year things picked up there and the Bears rush D was good. Having Urlacher and Briggs obviously helps that too.