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d34ng3l021
05-11-2008, 11:21 PM
Heres who I think would be the best players to build a franchise around. I have taken into account age, what position they play, and the abilities they bring to the table. All the guys in this list are 27 and under, and that was part of my criteria. This is not my idea, but some other poster's from another site.

1. Ben Roethlisberger, QB Steelers
http://images.behindthesteelcurtain.com/images/admin/ben4.jpg
I am pretty sure everyone here can agree on the fact that the most important position in the NFL is quarterback. He must be able to lead his team week in week out, set an example for his teammates, and bring the team Ws. No one is more loved than the QB of a winning team, and no one gets as much blame as the QB for a loss. With that said, I would find it hard to argue that a QB who already has a Superbowl ring, just threw for 32 TDs to 11 interceptions, has a career passer rating of 92.5, and just turned 26 two months ago doesn’t deserve to be at the top of this list. Roethlisberger brings the toughness, leadership ability, and arm to be the franchise cornerstone for any team in the league.

2. Joe Thomas, LT Browns
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/joe-thomas-inside.jpg
Here is the number 1 reason for the Browns turn around. Some can credit it to the breakout of Derek Anderson or Braylon Edwards, but I am going to say that Joe Thomas at LT and Steinbach at LG changed everything. After an outstanding rookie season in which he only gave up 4.5 sacks, Thomas looks to hold down the fort at LT for the next decade. He is a great pass protector and moves his feet very well. Even with his outstanding job at protecting the QB’s blindside, he does a good job creating room for the ground game.

3. Mario Williams, DE Texans
http://blogs.chron.com/fanblogtexans/Williams.jpg
I am pretty sure everyone who thought the Texans made the wrong pick were very very very wrong. Mario Williams reminded them why this season. After getting 14 sacks this year (including 10 in his last 7 games) people will realize why this beast was taken number 1 overall. He was a pretty raw and inconsistent prospect coming out, but now that he is adjusting to the speed of the game, I might go as far to say that the NFL OTs will become his *****.

4. Adrian Peterson, RB Vikings
http://a1410.g.akamaitech.net/7/1410/32585/0/content.catalog.video.msn.com/ft/share0/8ec7/0/7337688_1.jpg
What we are witnessing right here just might be one of the top RBs to play the game, and no, I am not talking about LT. You want to talk dominance? Lets talk Adrian Peterson. His athletic ability is off the charts. We already know he has great top end speed, amazing feet, and will not go down after 1st contact. The most impressive thing about him to me is his vision. He came in right away in his rookie season and was able to find all the seams and was able to dominate teams. 1300 yards at a 5.6 average is a very impressive thing. He was 2nd in rushing while missing 2 games with injury and being held to 2 yards in another. If he can stay injury free, I expect nothing but Hall of Fame for him.

5. Nnamdi Asomugha, CB Raiders
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/peter_king/12/24/week16/mmqb.raider.corner.si.jpg
You know you are good when one season you amass 50 tackles and 8 interceptions and the next season you get 34 tackles and 1 interception. With the way he is playing, there could easily be viable arguments made to justify him as the top CB. To be thrown to only 30 times and have only 9 of them completed is just flat out ridiculous. I don’t care how much a defense is thrown at or how bad your opposing CB is. To negate a side of the field like that is just really good. When pairing up with DeAngelo Hall, who can make the best of ill advised throws, you have a terrifying secondary. I was very surprised to see that Nnamdi is only 26 years old.

6. Jared Allen, DE Vikings
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/jim_trotter/10/19/veterans/t1-allen.jpg
After a impressive rookie season in which he accumulated 9 sacks from 10 starts, Allen has only gotten better. He just turned 26 and already has 43 career sacks. His latest accomplishment? 15.5 sacks (and 10 PD) in 14 starts. Now want to hear a scary thought? His production should go up…a lot. Now while he plays with the Vikings, there is no way he can be paid as much attention to as he did in KC. For opposing offensive lines, you basically pick your poison. Do you let Allen sack you, Kevin Williams sack you, or Pat Williams eat you? His DUIs were a concern, but I think he has really cleaned up his act since then. The trade should also provide a new setting.

7. Antonio Cromartie, CB Chargers
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2207/2007451009_bea9ab72e9_o.jpg
What a surprise. Another Charger. After his first breakout year, I don’t think teams will be throwing anywhere near his vicinity. After being very raw when coming out of college, he has shown that when he has adjusted to the speed of the NFL, he can dominate. He has great awareness, hands, and vision. I question his ability to play man to man coverage, but there is no doubt that he will most likely learn how to do so in time.

8. Larry Fitzgerald, WR Cardinals
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/PHO/AAHF089_8x10-2005-2006Action.jpg
He has everything you look for in a player except top end speed. And when I say everything, I mean it. He runs excellent routes, makes great cuts, grabs everything near him, and is great after the catch. Not only all that, but he does a great job blocking and has a great character. He would be higher, but I don’t think WR is such a premium position that you can start a franchise out with. I don’t see how you can argue against him being a the top young receiver in the league.

9. Jammal Brown, LT Saints
http://www.nflhs.com/images/PI/ol11_JammalBrown2006-200.jpg
Once again, the LT position is being emphasized. He is already one of the best at his position at age 26. He does a fantastic job of protecting Drew Brees’ blindside. I would have him higher, but there are some doubts about his knees I believe. That is slightly concerning because top tackles often perform for a very long time.

10. Patrick Willis, MLB 49ers
http://www.sfgate.com/blogs/images/sfgate/ninerinsider/2008/03/22/willis.jpg
Having a MLB up this high should be a testament to itself. I don’t value the MLB position as much as other people do. I think an instinctive linebacker surrounded with some good players should do fine on a defense. Patrick Willis brings a whole new dimension to the instinctive linebacker. His athleticism is just off the charts. Not only does he have a nose for the ball, he is SO athletic. Its only a matter of time before he begins to use his athleticism properly. He was already a great linebacker against the run, and I only expect him to get better while the 49ers put some talent around him and he matures.

11. DeMarcus Ware, OLB Cowboys
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/reuben_frank/10/31/cowboys/p1_ware.jpg
It would seem as if Merriman and Ware are destined to be linked to one another. There will be constant debates about which one is better, but it really doesn’t matter. They are both at the top of the league at their premier position while being younger than 26 years old. Ware has improved every season and that is why he is above Merriman in this list. Ware’s all around game is better than Merriman’s but you could make a case that because 3-4 OLBs blitz so much, pass rushing is much more important. I don’t really want to get into a Merriman and Ware debate though. Ware is a stud.

12. Shawne Merriman, OLB Chargers
http://ninerplanet.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/merriman06.jpg
Pass rushers are such a commodity in the NFL, that Merriman and Ware could also make a case for themselves to be higher. I don’t think anyone can make an argument against his production. ROY with 10 sacks. 17 sacks while starting only 12 games. 12.5 sacks while starting 15 games. Not a single season with less than 10 sacks and he is only 23. Sure there is a blemish because of his steroid scandal, but you cant argue with how he is on the field.

13. Braylon Edwards, WR Browns
http://a.abcnews.com/images/Sports/bd345ae0-5f9e-439e-bf1b-2c04e6748419_ms.jpeg
He could easily be higher, but I had a hard time making a case for him to be above other guys on this list. He is very explosive and has some of the best hands in the league. I actually thought the 49ers should have taken him number 1 overall in the weak class, but that doesn’t matter. After his breakout season, I expect him to show more consistently and be a constant deep and redzone threat.

14. Jay Cutler, QB Broncos
http://xcn6357.k12.sd.us/pictures/jaycutler.jpg
Damn the body builder Cutler (saw a lot of him when I looked for Jay’s pic). Cutler could easily be higher just because he shows so much potential at the NFL’s most important position. He has the leadership ability you look for and has a rocket arm. In his 2nd season, he is already looking like a vet with the stats he puts up. I expect a huge breakout season from him this year that will establish him as a top10 QB in the league. It’s a shame to know that he has diabetes, but hopefully things will work out.

15. Steven Jackson, RB Rams
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/james_quintong/07/09/no2.pick/t1_sjax_si.jpg
Steven Jackson brings great versatility to the field. As if he wasn’t already too much to handle at 6’2”230 lbs running at you, he is a threat to catch it out of the backfield and gain some yards. His 2006 season was outstanding with 2300 yards from scrimmage. If he can somewhat replicate his previous success, he should get higher on this list. Also another concern is how violently he runs with the ball. I am not saying that it is a bad thing, but it is one of those things that could cut your career short.

16. Justin Tuck DT/DE, Giants
http://www.nypost.com/seven/10302007/photos/spo070a.jpg
What an upcomer in the league. After breaking out this season with 10 sacks, he will only get better. He brings a lot of versatility to the Giants and is one of the key reasons for their Superbowl run. He creates mismatches all over the field. He is too quick for centers and guards and is too strong for tackles. He is going to be really good.

17. Albert Haynesworth, DT Titans
http://static.nfl.com/static/content/catch_all/nfl_image/Haynesworth_matchup.jpg
I think DT is one of the most important positions in the NFL (behind only QB, LT, DE, and CB) and you could make a case for Haynesworth being the top DT at the age of 26. I had him higher until 5 minutes ago when his motivational issues came to mind. When you are building a franchise, you need to make sure you get guys who will put in 100% every day. To me, it seems as if Haynesworth will only be dominant when he wants to. I thought that stepping on a guys face to be very immature as well. That’s just not the type of character you can build your team around.

18. Lofa Tatupu, MLB Seahawks
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/10-07/1025ltatupu.jpg
I bet teams are just kicking themselves for passing him up because he might not be athletic enough. What he lacks in athleticism, he more then compensates in his instincts. He is always near the ball and just knows what the offense is doing. He has great leadership ability as well. His stats more than speak for themselves: 3 years, 3 pro bowls, 335 tackles, 6.5 sacks, 8 interceptions.

19. Marcus McNeil, LT Chargers
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/jeffri_chadiha/12/19/rookies/t1_mcneill.jpg
I bet the Chargers created concerns about his back just so they could nab him in the 2nd round (I think). As soon as he came in, he was the road grader everyone knew he would be. What is most impressive is how well he did against the pass. Thought to be too big and not quick enough to stop pass rushers, McNeil more than outdid his expectations in his rookie season. Though he was no Walter Jones or Orlando Pace, he did an average-above average job protecting Rivers, and that’s all you could ask of him.

20. Osi Omenyiora, DE Giants
http://www.giants.com/images/content/photos/03_1230_72.jpg
Here is a very good DE which could be the cornerstone of any defense. At the age of 26 he has 41 career sacks, highlighted by a 14.5 and 13 sack years. He does a great job against the pass. Though he isn’t the best guy at the point of attack, he does an okay job against the run as well. I would put him higher, but his inconsistency concerns me.

21. Tony Ugoh, LT Colts
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0831/nfl_a_ugoh_195.jpg
The Colts seem to have found a gem for their scheme in the 2nd round. Tony Ugoh has one of the hardest jobs in the NFL; he protects Peyton Manning’s blindside. He has great feet, and though he may be undersized, he does a great job on stretch plays and an adequate job blocking for the run. His forte though is the blocking he does for Peyton Manning during pass plays. He does a great job, and finding LTs that do so is very rare.

22. Andre Johnson, WR Texans
http://broncotalk.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/week15_texans1.jpg
He is an absolute beast. I think a lot of people do not realize this. As soon as he is healthy for a season along with Schaub, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a 100 1500 15 season from him. He does absolutely everything well and his only flaw may be some drops and his injury issue. He can stretch the field for a deep pass or take a 5 yard hitch to the house. He does a great job blocking and going over the middle. The only reason I have him this low is because his inability to stay healthy and some consistency issues. I think with the connection he has with Schaub now, he will establish himself as a top5 reciever.

23. Haloti Ngata, DT Ravens
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/images/2007/08/27/uN8rx8l7.jpg
I thought about him higher, but he has only had 2 years of experience and more consistency would be good. His stats wont explain what he has done with the Ravens. As if 63 tackles from a NT position isn’t impressive enough, the Ravens ranked number 1 on defense in YPC with 2.8 yards last year and 2nd in 2006 with 3.3 YPC. He takes up many blockers freeing up his LBs and penetrating the pocket. Its kind of a scary thought that he is only 24.

24. Trent Cole , DE Eagles
http://media.scout.com/media/image/48/487187.jpg
After being selected in the 5th round in 2005, Cole has steadily improved until he exploded last year. After amassing 5 sacks as a rookie, 8 sacks as a 2nd year player, he burst out to get 12.5 sacks and 70 tackles from the DE position. Not only is he a great pass rusher, but he also does a great job against the run as well.

25. LaRon Landry, FS Redskins
http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2007/08/22/PH2007082202938.jpg
I am sure I am somewhat biased in this selection. He was one of my favorite prospects last year, and he did not fail to deliver in his rookie season. After starting out at SS, he finished the season at FS in an outstanding manner. He brings great range, hard hits, and great instincts to the field. He may become the best FS in the league in a year or two.


Honorable Mentions (by team):

Buffalo Bills: Marshawn Lynch, Jason Peters (forgot him. he would be top10)
Miami Dolphins: Ronnie Brown, Jake Long
New England Patriots: Vince Wilfork
New York Jets: D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Kerry Rhodes, David Harris
Baltimore Ravens: Terrell Suggs
Cincinnati Bengals: Jonathan Joseph
Cleveland Browns: Derek Anderson, Kellen Winslow, Kamerion Wimbley
Pittsburgh Steelers: Troy Polamalu
Houston Texans: DeMeco Ryans, Dunta Robinson
Indianapolis Colts: Bob Sanders (He should be on the list. I forgot about him. Somewhere between 15-25)
Jacksonville Jaguars: Maurice Jones-Drew (He should be on the list. Forgot him too. Probably between 10-15)
Tennessee Titans: Vince Young, Michael Roos
Denver Broncos: Brandon Marshall
Kansas City Chiefs: Glenn Dorsey, Dwayne Bowe, Derrick Johnson
Oakland Raiders: DeAngelo Hall, Darren McFadden
San Diego Chargers: Luis Castillo
Dallas Cowboys: Marion Barber
New York Giants: Eli Manning
Philadelphia Eagles: Shawn Andrews
Washington Redskins: Clinton Portis
Chicago Bears: Lance Briggs, Tommie Harris
Detroit Lions: Calvin Johnson, Ernie Sims
Green Bay Packers: AJ Hawk, Nick Barnett
Minnesota Vikings: Kevin Williams (forgot him. he would be 10-15)
Atlanta Falcons: Roddy White, Michael Boley
Carolina Panthers: Jon Beason
New Orlean Saints: Reggie Bush, Marques Colston
Tampa Bay Buccaneers: Gaines Adams, Barrett Ruud
Arizona Cardinals: Anquan Boldin (could have been 15-25)
San Francisco 49ers: Frank Gore
Seattle Seahawks: Marcus Trufant
St. Louis Rams: Chris Long


So, who did I forget?

tom
05-11-2008, 11:29 PM
Maurice Drew at 10 to 15? ********... He's ok, but not that great. And Eli Manning should be in instead of cutler.

MetSox17
05-11-2008, 11:35 PM
I think Marcus McNeil should be higher. Above Jamaal Brown in my opinion.

I think it's too quick to put Justin Tuck up there.

I'd put LaRon Landry higher.

TheGreatEscape
05-11-2008, 11:44 PM
Tuck over Osi...really? I know tuck had a breakout year and Osi didn't but Osi is quicker off the snap has faster feet and can straight up dominate even an elite LT if left mano a mano. He's no Strahan against the run but he does such a good job of shedding blockers that he's effective against the run even if he can be overpowered. Add to that that he's the only de I've ever seen make Walter Jones his *****.

TheGreatEscape
05-11-2008, 11:46 PM
I also really disagree with your assessment that CBs are as important as DE. Gimme a nasty pass rush and solid secondary over a nasty secondary and solid pass rush any day.

d34ng3l021
05-11-2008, 11:56 PM
Maurice Drew at 10 to 15? ********... He's ok, but not that great. And Eli Manning should be in instead of cutler.

He is a TD machine. He has 26 TDs in 2 years while splitting the load with Fred Taylor. Though I doubt he can carry the load by himself, that extra explosion he adds is pretty good. He nearly got a 1000 yards while averaging 5.7 yards a carry. He does a great job at running to the outside, to the inside, catching balls from the backfield, and returning kicks.

I think Marcus McNeil should be higher. Above Jamaal Brown in my opinion.

I think it's too quick to put Justin Tuck up there.

I'd put LaRon Landry higher.

Marcus McNeil could be higher for sure. I couldnt justify putting him over the other guys though. Jammal Brown is really good. LT for a team that gave up 16 sacks 2 years ago? I am sure they were once again near the top of the league this year as well in sacks given up.

I could be jumping on Justin Tuck too early, but I think the way he is used is really brilliant for the Giants D as a whole. And as for having him over Osi, I think Osi needs to be more consistent. 13 sacks is great, but 6 of them came from 1 game.

And as much as I like Laron Landry, its hard to build a team around a safety, no matter how much of a stud he is.

I also really disagree with your assessment that CBs are as important as DE. Gimme a nasty pass rush and solid secondary over a nasty secondary and solid pass rush any day.

I never said CBs are as important as DEs. I actually named my opinion on the most important positions in order. QB, then LT, then DE, then CB, then DT.

SenorGato
05-12-2008, 12:00 AM
Personally, I kind of like Jay Cutler more than Big Ben, but Ben has the track record. Thats my bias more than anything else, because Jay Cutler = the truth to me.

I wouldn't rank either #1. I think if I was a starting team I'd go Mario Williams. That guy has the potential to be a legend at the DE position.

Personally, I like D'Brick alot in the long run, even moreso than Thomas. Not that he deserves to be on this list, but when I think about the young LT's in this league the only guy I really think will have a similar or better future is Joe Thomas. Brown has the knee issues...McNiell has the back issues...Ugoh is good...even Winston Justice has enormous potential at either tackle spot...but as far as physical health, athleticism, and intelligence I really think D'Brick and Thomas will separate themselves from those guys over time.

Vince Wilfork needs to be on that list. He's the key to one of the best DL's in the league, and he's the best young NT in the league.

Andre Johnson should be higher. People really need to see how nasty this guy is.

I think if Patrick Willis can be that high, then David Harris can find a place here. People will be talking about David Harris alot next year.

Personally, as a D guy I think guys like Ngata and Tuck have way too much skill and versatility going to keep them both in the top 15. Luis Castillo is another guy like that. The athleticism and intelligence these guys have shown just by handling and producing in any role they've been asked to do is just sick, and it's those kind of guys that the modern D-line/front 7 is looking for. Give teams different looks and move guys around, it's a big chess match with the offense and the coaching staff of the opposing team.

Maybe I'll make my own top 25 and post it later.

Wootylicous
05-12-2008, 12:03 AM
Tuck over Osi...? woah woah woah

SuperMcGee
05-12-2008, 12:15 AM
Jason Peters, maybe?

You have 27 year old Brown in your top 10, but 26 yeard old Peters can't even crack the honorable mentions??

SenorGato
05-12-2008, 12:20 AM
Jason Peters, maybe?

You have 27 year old Brown in your top 10, but 26 yeard old Peters can't even crack the honorable mentions??

I'm kind of mad I didn't add Jason Peters in my post.

That guy is just sick...the Jets pass rush vs. him was just sad to watch...great athlete and long term build for the LT position too...

Wootylicous
05-12-2008, 12:23 AM
it's not like the jets actually had a pass-rush.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 12:29 AM
Jason Peters, maybe?

You have 27 year old Brown in your top 10, but 26 yeard old Peters can't even crack the honorable mentions??

I knew I would forget someone really good. I guess Jason Peters is one of them. He would be in the top10 easily. Its not like I hate all Bills ;)

doingthisinsteadofwork
05-12-2008, 12:44 AM
If Im going to build my franchise around a player its likely going to be around a guy who plays LT,DE,QB,or MLB.I dont think Id build it around any other position.

MetSox17
05-12-2008, 12:59 AM
I think tackling machine LB's are available every year, so i'd take out Lofa Tatupu from that list and find a place for Darrelle Revis.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 01:03 AM
Personally, I kind of like Jay Cutler more than Big Ben, but Ben has the track record. Thats my bias more than anything else, because Jay Cutler = the truth to me.

I wouldn't rank either #1. I think if I was a starting team I'd go Mario Williams. That guy has the potential to be a legend at the DE position.

Personally, I like D'Brick alot in the long run, even moreso than Thomas. Not that he deserves to be on this list, but when I think about the young LT's in this league the only guy I really think will have a similar or better future is Joe Thomas. Brown has the knee issues...McNiell has the back issues...Ugoh is good...even Winston Justice has enormous potential at either tackle spot...but as far as physical health, athleticism, and intelligence I really think D'Brick and Thomas will separate themselves from those guys over time.

Vince Wilfork needs to be on that list. He's the key to one of the best DL's in the league, and he's the best young NT in the league.

Andre Johnson should be higher. People really need to see how nasty this guy is.

I think if Patrick Willis can be that high, then David Harris can find a place here. People will be talking about David Harris alot next year.

Personally, as a D guy I think guys like Ngata and Tuck have way too much skill and versatility going to keep them both in the top 15. Luis Castillo is another guy like that. The athleticism and intelligence these guys have shown just by handling and producing in any role they've been asked to do is just sick, and it's those kind of guys that the modern D-line/front 7 is looking for. Give teams different looks and move guys around, it's a big chess match with the offense and the coaching staff of the opposing team.

Maybe I'll make my own top 25 and post it later.

Jay Cutler does look really good, but I only have him that low just because he hasnt broken out yet and I am just being on the safe side. And maybe before last year, I might have wanted Cutler more than Roethlisberger as well, but this year Roethlisberger showed me that he isnt just a game manager.

You are right about D'brick. He should have made it to the top25 but just got left as an honorable mention. As much potential he has, he hasnt gone a consistent time showcasing it. He still has had some struggles (even though he is always improving). I think I am going to make a revised list after everyones criticisms.

I completely forgot about Wilfork until the honorable mentions. I didnt even know the Patriots had stars under the age of 27. He should be around 20-25 and not higher because I dont like his attitude.

Patrick Willis and Lofa Tatupu are the only ILB/MLBs to make it on the list. I honestly dont find too much value in that position. I think if you were to find an instinctive leader and put some big bodies in front of him, he would do alot better than a guy who has all the talent in the world but is always being eaten up by blockers. David Harris though will no doubt be a stud.

I am a big Andre Johnson fan too. I really wish he would stay more healthy though. I am just waiting for when he and Schaub can do 16 games together.

I love Tuck and Ngata, and I love what they do for their defenses. Maybe youll agree with me to having Tuck over Osi? I think the mismatches Tuck creates for the Giants really opens things up for other guys.

holt_bruce81
05-12-2008, 01:07 AM
I would deffinetly have Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes in the top 25.

SenorGato
05-12-2008, 01:13 AM
I do agree that I would take Tuck over Osi.

I think long term people will really see what he means to that D.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 01:15 AM
I would deffinetly have Adrian Wilson and Kerry Rhodes in the top 25.

I dont think building a defense around a safety is practical.

Dam8610
05-12-2008, 01:21 AM
I'm taking a 31 year old Manning, 30 year old Brady, or even a 28 year old Carson Palmer over all of these players, and I'll get 5-7 great years of production and probably playoffs out of all of them.

Zbikowski_9
05-12-2008, 01:23 AM
in the honarable mentions for the Vikings you have no one. What about Kevin Williams? You said you rate DTs highly, as do I, he has had double digit sacks twice in his career, he has taken multiple interceptions to the house and he is dominant against the run. Oh and he is 27.

MetSox17
05-12-2008, 01:23 AM
Where's the love for Darrelle Revis?!

holt_bruce81
05-12-2008, 01:24 AM
I dont think building a defense around a safety is practical.

The Eagles are built around Brian Dawkins.....that's seemed to work out pretty well.

Bengalsrocket
05-12-2008, 01:36 AM
Cutler over Palmer makes me sad =(

vidae
05-12-2008, 01:39 AM
I'm taking a 31 year old Manning, 30 year old Brady, or even a 28 year old Carson Palmer over all of these players, and I'll get 5-7 great years of production and probably playoffs out of all of them.

Amen to that. Age it rated highly it seems, maybe a little higher than it should be, but even with that how can there be no Carson Palmer on that list? He's a top 3 qb in this league. If I picked any QB (not named Manning or Brady) it would be Carson 10 times out of 10 for me.

fenikz
05-12-2008, 01:46 AM
If I'm starting a franchise I take Boldin over Fitz every time, he is probably the most complete WR in the league, no one ever seems to take blocking into account plus he is the undisputed leader of the entire Cardinals team.


And Lofa should be higher than Willis, one season doesn't mean anything plus tackles are an overrated stat, he had no one on his team to compete with for them

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 01:48 AM
eh Dam. I was just getting at guys 27 or younger, but you are right as well.

And sorry about forgetting Kevin Williams. He has established himself as one of the top UTs in the league and demands double teams because of his quick first step. He would be around 10-20.

And Revis looked good his rookie year, but I am going to have to see more than just that out of him.

And thats true that Dawkins did alot of his franchise, but he was a really damn good safety. He made the hits, was a very vocal leader, didnt miss coverage assignments. I think alot of the Eagle's success had to do with some of the other good guys they surrounded him with. Sheppard and Brown. Trotter for a year.

eaglesfan_45
05-12-2008, 01:51 AM
No Ronnie Brown in your top 25?
that guy was tearing up the league before he was injured.

fenikz
05-12-2008, 01:51 AM
And Revis looked good his rookie year, but I am going to have to see more than just that out of him.

With that in mind why do you have Willis rated so highly?

MetSox17
05-12-2008, 01:52 AM
And Revis looked good his rookie year, but I am going to have to see more than just that out of him.


Double standard, or cop out?

LaRon Landry, Tony Ugoh, Antonio Cromartie, Patrick Willis, Justin Tuck..

All guys that played on way better teams, with much more talent, yet they get put in the list, and very high as well (outside of Landry).

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 01:54 AM
170 tackles, 4 sacks, 2 FFs as a (in my opinion) raw rookie. Revis was good, yes, but I dont think he was at Willis' level.

Dam8610
05-12-2008, 01:59 AM
eh Dam. I was just getting at guys 27 or younger, but you are right as well.

Well, had you put a "27 or under" in your title, then I wouldn't have taken issue. It just didn't make sense to me why anyone wouldn't take those 3 first when building a franchise.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 02:01 AM
Yeah sorry. I thought I put it up, but I didnt.

CC.SD
05-12-2008, 02:02 AM
I dig this list. I think Merriman and Ware should both be rated higher but the author wanted to get cute and list them as 11 and 12, just like in the 2005 draft.

Do not agree with honorable mention: Luis Castillo. He IS explosive, but the injuries are getting to be such a concern that you can't reasonably call him a franchise player. Still awesome though.

ImBrotherCain
05-12-2008, 02:02 AM
Well Im gonna speak out for all packers fans here and ask about Jennings and Kampman not making the list or even the honorable mentions

MetSox17
05-12-2008, 02:06 AM
Well Im gonna speak out for all packers fans here and ask about Jennings and Kampman not making the list or even the honorable mentions

Umm, are you completely oblivious to what's being posted before you?

Kampman is 28, and Greg Jennings can't hold Edwards' or Fitzgeralds' jock. This after making the point that WR's aren't that high a priority when it comes to starting a franchise. There's plenty other WR's i'd rather have over Jennings.

So go back to homerville Packer fan.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 02:19 AM
I dig this list. I think Merriman and Ware should both be rated higher but the author wanted to get cute and list them as 11 and 12, just like in the 2005 draft.

Do not agree with honorable mention: Luis Castillo. He IS explosive, but the injuries are getting to be such a concern that you can't reasonably call him a franchise player. Still awesome though.

Actually I didnt realize that the were picked 11 and 12 when I was writing that. I remember reading it somewhere recently though. I might have done it subconsciously though because I did move them around a bit before the final list.

Yeah. The only WRs on the list were Fitz, Braylon, and Andre. They are kinda good.

Dam8610
05-12-2008, 02:32 AM
21. Tony Ugoh, LT Colts
http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0831/nfl_a_ugoh_195.jpg
The Colts seem to have found a gem for their scheme in the 2nd round. Tony Ugoh has one of the hardest jobs in the NFL; he protects Peyton Manning’s blindside. He has great feet, and though he may be undersized, he does a great job on stretch plays and an adequate job blocking for the run. His forte though is the blocking he does for Peyton Manning during pass plays. He does a great job, and finding LTs that do so is very rare.

He didn't really come in as a great pass blocker, that had to be taught, but he picked it up very quickly and doesn't come with Tarik Glenn's False Starts, which is a nice bonus. His forte coming in though was, and IMO still is, run blocking.

LonghornsLegend
05-12-2008, 03:50 AM
Was that just by coincidence that you had Ware and Merriman at 11 and 12 again, their exact order in the draft? Just thought that was funny, stood out to me.


And good work, I won't critique it too much, because its just your opinion, anytime somebody does one of these nobody is going to see eye to eye...Good write up none the less, something interesting to read, obviously there were a few questionable players left off, but this was from your POV.

BlindSite
05-12-2008, 06:35 AM
Steve Smith, a better WR than everyone you have on your board, Jon Beason is a top 25 player when compared to the other linebackers on that list.

Some of those guys you've got on there have some character concerns too.

Xonraider
05-12-2008, 06:49 AM
Tuck? I think that is jumping on the gun a bit too quickly. remember he did play with a bunch of stars who also took a lot of double teams in that defensive line. The rest seems pretty good, except I'd probably add Maurice Jones-Drew to the list

Thunder&Lightning
05-12-2008, 07:17 AM
Great work man... Even though Willis is pretty high at 10 I think he should be higher.

Caddy
05-12-2008, 07:25 AM
I really think Eli deserves a spot on the list somewhere, particularly above Cutler.

Gay Ork Wang
05-12-2008, 08:15 AM
Devin Hester??? I know he doesnt have a real position yet. But he basically is our offense or was our offense last year

Jughead10
05-12-2008, 08:35 AM
I really think Eli deserves a spot on the list somewhere, particularly above Cutler.

Cutler has a big arm. We get it. Does that mean he should be that high? I would take Rivers over him as well right now.

I also wouldn't have Ben number 1. If I'm taking a QB as the best guy in the league to build a team around, the entire offense should run for him. Ben doesn't have enough control over an offense to be that guy. I'd probably put Thomas at #1.

indyfan1985
05-12-2008, 09:47 AM
Roethlisberger over QBs like Manning, Brady, and Palmer? I realize Big Ben is maybe 4 years younger than Manning and Brady but these QBs know how to stay healthy and will probably be playing in the NFL for another 7 or 8 years. Im taking a proven champion QB to build around and from there I'll take a dominant LT to keep him upright and a staple for my defense like a Tommie Harris.

Gay Ork Wang
05-12-2008, 09:48 AM
building a franchise around i wouldnt build around a guy who is almost 30

YAYareaRB
05-12-2008, 10:15 AM
I think LT Joe Staley for 49ers should at least be on the honorable mention list. He played in and started all 16 games last season and was the only bright spot on our line.. maybe our whole offense.

TheGreatEscape
05-12-2008, 11:01 AM
I love Tuck, I'm a giants fan and he had a great year, but Osi was the DE people focused on all season, especially early on and he did a good job. Then Andy Reid made the mistake of leaving him one on one and he made Winston Justice an embarassment to the position. Simply put Osi is the guy on our dline teams focus on stopping that's what makes him a better franchise player than Tuck, plus he's more proven and a king.

If you wanna talk about long term potential then Kiwi is the giants best franchise guy as he's made an impact playing OLB, DE and DT, his ceiling is just so much higher than Osi or Tuck's. If he stays healthy he'll be breaking out this year.

LonghornsLegend
05-12-2008, 11:17 AM
Cutler has a big arm. We get it. Does that mean he should be that high? I would take Rivers over him as well right now.

I also wouldn't have Ben number 1. If I'm taking a QB as the best guy in the league to build a team around, the entire offense should run for him. Ben doesn't have enough control over an offense to be that guy. I'd probably put Thomas at #1.

Says who? I disagree with that statement, and he pretty much proved otherwise this year...He had complete control over that offense this year, I watched quite a few games of their's, he ran that offense when they went 5 wide.

MaxV
05-12-2008, 11:47 AM
As Dam has already stated, Ugoh's run-blocking skills are better then his pass-blocking.

I honestly believe that he's top 5 among LTs in run-blocking.

Jughead10
05-12-2008, 11:49 AM
Also why wasn't Tony Romo even brought up in honorable mention?

MetSox17
05-12-2008, 12:47 PM
Also why wasn't Tony Romo even brought up in honorable mention?

Cause everyone hates Tony Romo for having a life outside of NFL football. Cause he's the only player in the league that does, it's not like anyone else gets to have vacations, right?

Jughead10
05-12-2008, 12:50 PM
Cause everyone hates Tony Romo for having a life outside of NFL football. Cause he's the only player in the league that does, it's not like anyone else gets to have vacations, right?

Well I don't think that is it. But Romo hasn't really taken stardom gracefully. He certainly eats it up. He went from a nobody to a somebody so fast. I'd think someone like him would be a little more humble.

M.O.T.H.
05-12-2008, 12:51 PM
He was going 27 and under, so no Romo. You include 28 year olds, Romo is right around the top.

M.O.T.H.
05-12-2008, 12:55 PM
Well I don't think that is it. But Romo hasn't really taken stardom gracefully. He certainly eats it up. He went from a nobody to a somebody so fast. I'd think someone like him would be a little more humble.

Tony is a humble guy...yes, he is living it up but, people that call him arrogant and too cocky are way off. He's one of the most level headed players out there and he handles all the added "pressure" well. Everyone tries to make him out to be this bad guy but, he isnt. Just let the guy live his life.

Jughead10
05-12-2008, 01:00 PM
Tony is a humble guy...yes, he is living it up but, people that call him arrogant and too cocky are way off. He's one of the most level headed players out there and he handles all the added "pressure" well. Everyone tries to make him out to be this bad guy but, he isnt. Just let the guy live his life.

I heard he lost 2 million in Vegas a week or two ago. And then got in a huge fight with Jessica over money for an apperance. One of them was making more for it (Don't know which one), and it caused a big fight. Did you read about that? I'm not sure it is true.

MetSox17
05-12-2008, 01:03 PM
I heard he lost 2 million in Vegas a week or two ago. And then got in a huge fight with Jessica over money for an apperance. One of them was making more for it (Don't know which one), and it caused a big fight. Did you read about that? I'm not sure it is true.

Dude, just find out where you're reading that junk first.

Sounds very TMZ-esque..

Doesn't sound like Tony Romo at all to me.

themaninblack
05-12-2008, 01:05 PM
Nice to see some love for JJ outside of Bengaldom.

M.O.T.H.
05-12-2008, 01:05 PM
I heard he lost 2 million in Vegas a week or two ago. And then got in a huge fight with Jessica over money for an apperance. One of them was making more for it (Don't know which one), and it caused a big fight. Did you read about that? I'm not sure it is true.

I could care less about all of that to be honest.

I think it's kind of sick the way people follow these celebrities, Romo included, around all day...and ESPN isnt doing him any favors either, by including a stupid Romo related story every other day on Sports Center. That's just making more people dislike Tony and it's not even his doing. The whole thing is a joke.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 01:07 PM
Steve Smith is very good yes, but he is 29 and I was doing 27 and under.
As for Beason, He is very good and would be around 25-35, but I dont think he would be top25.

And I could either be jumping on the gun for Tuck, or I could have him too low. Its going to be one or the other, and we will see.

I think that Cutler is a guy I would pick to lead a franchise, over Manning. I think Manning needs to show more consistency. Sure he is great in clutch situations, and showed that he might be turning the corner in the playoffs, but you look at his stats and what do you see? He throws a good amount of TDs every year...around 20-24, but he also has 20ish turnovers each year. This year. If he can carry on his success from the playoffs to the regular season though, he will shoot up this list.

Eh. Devin Hester is a bit iffy. He is explosive and is already the best return man in history, but...he is a return man...

Case for Roethlisberger: I might have agreed with you guys a year ago. I didnt think he had what it takes to lead a team to get the W and if he could be the passer you would want. He proved me wrong this season. He was constantly avoiding sacks and making plays to get his offense in the best position.

And my bad for misunderstanding Ugoh. I thought with his build and what I read about him, he would be a better pass blocker than a run blocker.

And yeah. Tony Romo would be near the top of the list if he were a year younger. I am just doing 27 and under.

Jughead10
05-12-2008, 01:08 PM
I could care less about all of that to be honest.

I think it's kind of sick the way people follow these celebrities, Romo included, around all day...and ESPN isnt doing him any favors either, by including a stupid Romo related story every other day on Sports Center. That's just making more people dislike Tony and it's not even his doing. The whole thing is a joke.

To be honest though. There are bigger stars in sports than Tony Romo that manage to keep a low profile.

M.O.T.H.
05-12-2008, 01:15 PM
To be honest though. There are bigger stars in sports than Tony Romo that manage to keep a low profile.

ESPN had a lot to do w/ all of Romo's attention. Seemed to make him more enemies than fans, though...people are easily influenced, if ESPN keeps talking about him every single day, it's only natural that a lot of people are going to start to hate the guy. Happens all the time.

When Tony started to get all the attention, I'm sure he loved it...but now, he just seems sick of it. He was one of the least enthused when hearing about the Boys starring in HBO's Hard Knocks. No matter what he does, it's going to be very difficult to keep a low profile.

PoopSandwich
05-12-2008, 01:36 PM
Good to see two Browns on there... However Braylon doesn't have very good hands, he makes spectacular catches and then drops some of the easiest passes you will ever see.

Amazing talent though, don't get me wrong.

DeathbyStat
05-12-2008, 02:36 PM
I haven't even read the rest of the list...but Big Ben as number one is going to start huge waves

holt_bruce81
05-12-2008, 04:10 PM
I haven't even read the rest of the list...but Big Ben as number one is going to start huge waves

In 4 seasons he has posted a record of 40-16. He has won a Superbowl, Has been to a pro bowl. Is a big Quarterback who isn't fast by no means but can buy time with his feet if he needs to.

Not to many Quarterbacks have come into the NFL and had the kind of instant success he's had.

skinzzfan25
05-12-2008, 04:16 PM
ESPN had a lot to do w/ all of Romo's attention. Seemed to make him more enemies than fans, though...people are easily influenced, if ESPN keeps talking about him every single day, it's only natural that a lot of people are going to start to hate the guy. Happens all the time.

When Tony started to get all the attention, I'm sure he loved it...but now, he just seems sick of it. He was one of the least enthused when hearing about the Boys starring in HBO's Hard Knocks. No matter what he does, it's going to be very difficult to keep a low profile.

He brings a lot of it on himself.

I'm not gonna show a lot of sympathy for a guy who goes to an opposing NFC city and sings take me out to the ball game. That's just asking for it.

And I mean Tony Parker is married to another celebrity, and is on the former world championship team. He can get it done, Romo just needs to hop out of the spotlight for a little if he wants to be less ridiculed.

holt_bruce81
05-12-2008, 04:19 PM
He brings a lot of it on himself.

I'm not gonna show a lot of sympathy for a guy who goes to an opposing NFC city and sings take me out to the ball game. That's just asking for it.

And I mean Tony Parker is married to another celebrity, and is on the former world championship team. He can get it done, Romo just needs to hop out of the spotlight for a little if he wants to be less ridiculed.

He went to Eastern Illinois.....a lot of players sing Take me out to the ball game at Wrigley Field that don't play in Chicago.

themaninblack
05-12-2008, 04:21 PM
Eastern Illinios is about as close to Chicago as Indianapolis is so I don't rly see why that would matter unless he was from Chicago.

tressel=god
05-12-2008, 04:28 PM
WOAH WOAH WOAH.... you are putting a guy who almost ruined his teams season before it started by getting into an accident at the top of your list for players to build a team around. While I agree that the QB is a very important position, you dont even have the best QB in the league up there IMO its Peyton Manning, others may pick Brady or Palmer but if your going to have your pick of QB's it would be one of those three before Big Ben. 2nd I'd have to say that i wouldnt build my organization on a QB I'd start with a LT or a RE (depending on your preferance of offense vs defense) but in any case you are nto going to win anything if you cant control the LOS. I agree with a LT being up there on the board but I wouldnt necesarily pick Joe Thomas as my first choice, if I was picking a young LT I'd say Marcuss McNeil goes above all the other LT you have up there. I will say that I like the choice of Mario Williams as him and Okoye are looking like Sapp and Rice did a few years ago.

tressel=god
05-12-2008, 04:32 PM
You alos will never be able to convince me that you should build a team around a CB, that would be like building your offense around a WR. Yes, it is great if you have a good CB but they can only really help you on the passing game on every play and only cover one Wide Out, if a tema has two good wide outs you are screwed. Please let me introduce you to the Indianapolis Colts.

M.O.T.H.
05-12-2008, 04:32 PM
He brings a lot of it on himself.

I'm not gonna show a lot of sympathy for a guy who goes to an opposing NFC city and sings take me out to the ball game. That's just asking for it.

And I mean Tony Parker is married to another celebrity, and is on the former world championship team. He can get it done, Romo just needs to hop out of the spotlight for a little if he wants to be less ridiculed.

Romo couldnt step out of the spotlight if he wanted to.

tressel=god
05-12-2008, 04:34 PM
In 4 seasons he has posted a record of 40-16. He has won a Superbowl, Has been to a pro bowl. Is a big Quarterback who isn't fast by no means but can buy time with his feet if he needs to.

Not to many Quarterbacks have come into the NFL and had the kind of instant success he's had.

So youd take Ben over Peyton? Even if you were going on the basis of a young QB that can buy time with his feet youd have to take Vince Young first.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 04:52 PM
Well if you read what I wrote before my list, and saw what we discussed in the previous posts, you would see that its just a list of guys 27 and younger.

And building a team around a CB is really hard, and thats why there are only 2 of them up there. Nmandi and Antonio. Both are kinda pretty good.

Seasonticketholder
05-12-2008, 05:10 PM
Jahri Evans.

Michigan
05-12-2008, 05:20 PM
I don't know about you guys, but I would never build a team around a non-rookie RB, not even AD, McFadden, or S-Jax. Way too much wear and tear is put on RB's bodies for them to be a reliable investment, and they generally have the shortest careers.

Bengalsrocket
05-12-2008, 05:29 PM
As short as their careers are, they have the potential to be the highest impact. Plus, a running back's career will stall last around 6-8 years before they decline which is all you need to start winning games and make a move towards the superbowl.

I get the feeling that people on these boards overvalue age way to much - LT is 28 years old and I believe he came into the league at 21, so do you think he's going to retire tomorrow? Is 7 years of domination not long enough for you? and I'm sure he'll be in the league for a little while longer.

If you want to build a dynasty around a player, RB may not be the fit. But you can surely build a franchise around a RB.

MaxV
05-12-2008, 06:43 PM
And my bad for misunderstanding Ugoh. I thought with his build and what I read about him, he would be a better pass blocker than a run blocker.

That's understandable. Ugoh isn't a massive tackle and is very athletic.

Normally, LTs like that are better as pass-blockers then run-blockers. But Ugoh is a different story. He comes from a very run-oriented offense in college and has always been more comfortable in running situations. He's absolutely AWESOME at pulling and being a leading blocker for a ball-carrier.

This is not to say that he isn't a good pass-blocker, he certainly did a fine job at that last year.

Obviously, with his athleticism, he still has a lot of potential as a pass-blocker and if that part of his game can catch up to his run-blocking, Ugoh could be a Pro-Bowl caliber OT.

Yung Flippa
05-12-2008, 07:18 PM
Troy Smith should be #1. :D

holt_bruce81
05-12-2008, 08:06 PM
So youd take Ben over Peyton? Even if you were going on the basis of a young QB that can buy time with his feet youd have to take Vince Young first.

Vince Young isn't near the passer Roethlisberger is.

Peyton is probably a top 3 QB in the nfl but he's 32 years old. How many years does he have left? Roethlisberger hasn't even hit his prime yet.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 08:10 PM
Even though I have Roethlisberger at number 1, I would argue that Peyton or Tom Brady would be the number 1 guys I would take to start a franchise with. Manning and Brady are on a whole different level for QBs in the league today (...and dare I say, in history?). Sure they are in there 30's, but QBs have a long shelf life. With the way Manning and Brady play, hardly taking sacks and getting rid of the ball quickly, another 5-6 dominant years out of them would not surprise me. You look at a guy like Roethlisberger who may be 26 or 27 and not in his prime (though I do think he is in it right now) and you could say that he is only going to get better, but he isnt going to be at the level of Brady and Manning.

MaxV
05-12-2008, 08:13 PM
Vince Young isn't near the passer Roethlisberger is.

Peyton is probably a top 3 QB in the nfl but he's 32 years old. How many years does he have left? Roethlisberger hasn't even hit his prime yet.

Probably top 3????

The heck kind of football league have you been watching?

holt_bruce81
05-12-2008, 08:15 PM
Probably top 3????

The heck kind of football league have you been watching?

I didn't say he wasn't top 3. He's the 2nd best Quarterback in the NFL right behind Brady In my opinion.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-12-2008, 08:19 PM
The lack of DeAngelo Hall and Michael Boley disgusts me.

TimD
05-12-2008, 08:19 PM
Darrelle Revis? Shutdown corner in zone coverage.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-12-2008, 08:20 PM
Darrelle Revis? Shutdown corner in zone coverage.


No shot in hell you can put Revis over DeAngelo Hall.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 08:20 PM
The lack of DeAngelo Hall and Michael Boley disgusts me.

I dont think you could build a team around his personality.

Nor can you build a team around a 4-3 OLB.

TimD
05-12-2008, 08:22 PM
No shot in hell you can put Revis over DeAngelo Hall.

I was looking for an honorable mention. I never said anything like that.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-12-2008, 08:22 PM
I dont think you could build a team around his personality.

Nor can you build a team around a 4-3 OLB.



You've got a juicer and Allen with his past. I don't think a cocky player gets eliminated.

ATLDirtyBirds
05-12-2008, 08:23 PM
I was looking for an honorable mention. I never said anything like that.



Oh. My mistake, I thought you were making a case for him in top 25.

TimD
05-12-2008, 08:43 PM
Oh. My mistake, I thought you were making a case for him in top 25.

Not at all. Maybe at the end of next season if he shuts down Moss once or twice and makes a pro bowl.

Staubach12
05-12-2008, 08:52 PM
Big Ben is great but he also got himself sacked 47 times, losing 347 yards this past year. That line wasn't that bad. Just putting that out there.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 09:03 PM
You've got a juicer and Allen with his past. I don't think a cocky player gets eliminated.

I think the juicing was a one time thing. And the way he dominates on the field, its really hard to not have him up there.

And Allen has changed I think. Hopefully a change in scenery should be good for him as well.

DragonFireKai
05-12-2008, 09:13 PM
Nor can you build a team around a 4-3 OLB.

Sure you can, the Chargers did it with Seau, the Bucs did it with Derrick Brooks, The titans built their defense around Keith Bullock.

d34ng3l021
05-12-2008, 09:20 PM
Sure you can, the Chargers did it with Seau, the Bucs did it with Derrick Brooks, The titans built their defense around Keith Bullock.

Seau for sure. You can argue your point for Bullock as well. But Brooks? I dont know...he is good, but I am sure having a HOF DT in Sapp and a good DE in Rice and great scheme fit DBs in Lynch and Barber helped alot too. But I guess Brooks in one of those guys that even while the Bucs were transitioning from old to young kept the defense together.

Hawk
05-12-2008, 09:22 PM
Sure you can, the Chargers did it with Seau, the Bucs did it with Derrick Brooks, The titans built their defense around Keith Bullock.

I think that the Bucs' D was built around Sapp and the Titans' around Albert

DragonFireKai
05-12-2008, 09:49 PM
I think that the Bucs' D was built around Sapp

And yet the defense barely missed a beat once they lost Sapp.

and the Titans' around Albert

Really? You do realize that Haynesworth didn't play at a level above decent starter until this past year? Bullock has been playing at a high level for half a decade, and was the only redeeming quality to the post Kearse defense during that time.

BamaFalcon59
05-12-2008, 10:00 PM
Not a huge fan of this list.

Also, not sure how Nnamdi Asomugha is 5 and DHall is not listed. DHall is 24 and a top 3 CB, he should be on the list.

Also, I agree with the person who said they would take Brady, Palmer, or Manning over all of them.

Control
05-12-2008, 11:09 PM
And Lofa should be higher than Willis, one season doesn't mean anything plus tackles are an overrated stat, he had no one on his team to compete with for them

I agree that tackles are an overrated (actually meaningless) stat, but the rest is nonsense.

Willis is superior to Tatupu in every single way except for (possibly) intangibles. Willis is the better athlete (by far), much bigger hitter, and more reliable tackler (I've seen Tatupu get dragged.)

Scotty D
05-12-2008, 11:30 PM
Braylon, Cutler, Lofa, Haloti, Cole are to high.

Rhodes, Sanders over Landry

Eli above Cutler I dont care if its still in the top 25

SenorGato
05-13-2008, 01:59 PM
And yet the defense barely missed a beat once they lost Sapp.



Really? You do realize that Haynesworth didn't play at a level above decent starter until this past year? Bullock has been playing at a high level for half a decade, and was the only redeeming quality to the post Kearse defense during that time.

Yea....no. Haynesworth has been a pretty DT for a while now...maybe the public/media just caught on last year but this guy didn't just pop out of nowhere.

DragonFireKai
05-13-2008, 02:13 PM
Yea....no. Haynesworth has been a pretty DT for a while now...maybe the public/media just caught on last year but this guy didn't just pop out of nowhere.

There's a big difference between the Haynesworth of 07, and the Haynesworth of years prior. He was playing on a high level, but he wasn't on anyone's top 5 lists. And I won't comment on his appearance. If you think he's pretty, well... I didn't ask, you shouldn't tell.

Geo
05-13-2008, 02:20 PM
I'm not going to lie, I want to see Haynesworth play this well after he gets seriously paid, because I'm not a full believer he will. It's just too convenient for a guy to turn the light on and play up to his great potential, when dollar signs await him as motivation.

He looked like a clear-cut elite lineman last season when healthy, if he stayed fully healthy/productive he would have been DPOTY.

TheGreatEscape
05-13-2008, 02:42 PM
Yea....no. Haynesworth has been a pretty DT for a while now...maybe the public/media just caught on last year but this guy didn't just pop out of nowhere.

Actually this was the first year Haynesworth ever dominated.

SenorGato
05-13-2008, 04:08 PM
There's a big difference between the Haynesworth of 07, and the Haynesworth of years prior. He was playing on a high level, but he wasn't on anyone's top 5 lists. And I won't comment on his appearance. If you think he's pretty, well... I didn't ask, you shouldn't tell.

What does his appearance have to do with...

Anyway, last year was easily his best season but the guy was definitely a top DT before last season. It's not like his '03-'06 were bad, and he was really good in '05. Last year the rest of the D also happened to be good while he had his best year.

Go_Eagles77
05-13-2008, 04:12 PM
Trent Cole has proved much more in his career than Justin Tuck...

DragonFireKai
05-13-2008, 05:00 PM
What does his appearance have to do with...

Yea....no. Haynesworth has been a pretty DT for a while now....

You said it.

Anyway, last year was easily his best season but the guy was definitely a top DT before last season. It's not like his '03-'06 were bad, and he was really good in '05. Last year the rest of the D also happened to be good while he had his best year.

I never said he was bad. I said he was a decent starter before 07. Someone you'd welcome onto your team, but hardly the focal point of the defense. The focal point of the defense after Kearse left was clearly Keith Bullock, not Haynesworth. The torch was passed in 07, for several years, that defense revolved around Bullock.

SenorGato
05-13-2008, 05:37 PM
You said it.



I never said he was bad. I said he was a decent starter before 07. Someone you'd welcome onto your team, but hardly the focal point of the defense. The focal point of the defense after Kearse left was clearly Keith Bullock, not Haynesworth. The torch was passed in 07, for several years, that defense revolved around Bullock.

Eh...I don't doubt it but I find it hard for a 4-3 OLB to dominate without a good run stuffer/lane clogger/general disruptor at DT.

I guess I see your point that last season was the first where Haynesworth truly dominated every game when healthy, but he was still really, really good in the seasons before that.

terribletowel39
05-14-2008, 11:11 AM
Big Ben is great but he also got himself sacked 47 times, losing 347 yards this past year. That line wasn't that bad. Just putting that out there.
Actually the line was that bad. I would put maybe 6-10 of the sacks as Ben's fault. The rest he is having to run for his life, a second after the ball is snapped. I'm not saying he deserves the #1 spot, he still has another year to prove that he can run that offense the same way, but the O-line was that bad. Hopefully he can get some blocking and really light it up.

TheGreatEscape
05-14-2008, 11:58 AM
Trent Cole has proved much more in his career than Justin Tuck...

That he's a very good pass rusher but lacks Tuck's power against the run or ability to move inside to tackle.

Go_Eagles77
05-14-2008, 01:55 PM
That he's a very good pass rusher but lacks Tuck's power against the run or ability to move inside to tackle.

Since when were defensive ends measured by their ability to play tackle? And I'm tired of this general thought that Cole is just a pure pass rusher, he was 2nd among 4-3 DEs in tackles in the NFL. I'm not saying Tuck is a bad player, hell I'm not even saying he will never be the better player of the 2, but at this time Cole has proved more.

TheGreatEscape
05-14-2008, 02:23 PM
Since when were defensive ends measured by their ability to play tackle? And I'm tired of this general thought that Cole is just a pure pass rusher, he was 2nd among 4-3 DEs in tackles in the NFL. I'm not saying Tuck is a bad player, hell I'm not even saying he will never be the better player of the 2, but at this time Cole has proved more.

We're not talking about DEs we're talking about franchise players.

Cole may have had a lot of tackles, but he's not the force against the run at the line that tuck is.

Cole may have proven more but if I'm starting a franchise I'd rather take Tuck than cole.

Go_Eagles77
05-14-2008, 02:28 PM
We're not talking about DEs we're talking about franchise players.

Cole may have had a lot of tackles, but he's not the force against the run at the line that tuck is.

Cole may have proven more but if I'm starting a franchise I'd rather take Tuck than cole.

Good point. I'll give you that.