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D-Unit
02-28-2007, 11:53 AM
Can somebody explain to me the high desire for CB in Round 1? I just don't see it as a Need to Have. It's more like a Nice to Have. Is it time to replace Henry or Newman? Are we that concerned with depth? Are we talking spending the pick on Nickel back? I agree that value will be there, but is that all? I'm ready and willing to be convinced if your points make sense. Thank you.

M.O.T.H.
02-28-2007, 11:56 AM
More likely than not Henry is moving to FS. So, there in lies the need for a CB.

D-Unit
02-28-2007, 12:17 PM
More likely than not Henry is moving to FS. So, there in lies the need for a CB.
Jerry said it himself that Henry is more than likely staying at corner. But ok... you're saying it's based off that assumption? Anything else?

M.O.T.H.
02-28-2007, 12:28 PM
Jerry said it himself that Henry is more than likely staying at corner. But ok... you're saying it's based off that assumption? Anything else?

He said he was trying to resist the urge to move him to safety.

"We know it's been written possibly moving Henry to safety," Jones said. "But, when I evaluated it as we've gone along the last few weeks and months, that might be hard to do because he had a lot of snaps in there, got pretty tired near the end so that may not be the best way to use his ability. His cornerback skills are very good, and it's not a given at all that that move is there."

Still, if the Cowboys acquire a top corner, and there are several in the draft, it might be a situation he revisits, Jones said.

I guess you could say, I'm basing my reasoning on assumption but, I still think the move will happen. He hasnt completly shut the door on it, i'm hoping it happens. I guy like Meriweather could really help with that versatility.

Also, it is easy as a cowboys fan/observer to go CB or Safety in the draft. What other need can we actually address at 22? (WR is a want more than a need IMO)

LSUALUM99
02-28-2007, 12:30 PM
To me it's based on several factors.

The first is that Other than LT and QB, CB and DE / WOLB's have the most impact on a team and thus command the highest prices / are the most scarce.

The second is that since, FA's of high caliber at CB are so expensive, you have to build that position through the draft more often than not. Therefore, since the value is there at 22 for CB, but not at LT or QB or WOLB for us, it makes the most sense to draft one at that spot.

Third is that unlike say OL, a backup CB will get significant playing time. CB's play ST, may or may not be able to return punts / kickoffs, they can play in the nickle or as a starter if a change to Henry's position were to be made.

Fourth is that unlike say OL or even DL or some other positions, high quality CBs typically are early draft picks. This is because, although technique is important, speed is not something you can coach up. You just don't find alot of guys running 4.4 or less in the second day of the draft.

Last is that DB's make up almost 40% of your defense and in many cases a DB can play several positions. WOLB for instance plays ONE position. Versatility is always valuable. (ALSO do not forget that DB is the position in the NFL with the second most injuries **RB being the most likely to be injured). This means you can never have too many quality DBs, but you can have too many quality QB, WOLB or LT's.

TNewFan41
02-28-2007, 01:25 PM
Exactly, we have NO need for a CB. I agree with you 100% D. Henry is satying, there for no need. Day 2 if anything. Although if anyone I would take Chris Houston, I love that kid. Henry is still in his prime, 30 is still young for a CB, and Newman is still pretty young, although he is 29, he has plenty of pro-bowl years left, atleast 5. If we take a D-Back in round 1 it better be Reggie Nelson. End of stroy.

bigmac076
02-28-2007, 02:04 PM
Exactly, we have NO need for a CB. I agree with you 100% D. Henry is satying, there for no need. Day 2 if anything. Although if anyone I would take Chris Houston, I love that kid. Henry is still in his prime, 30 is still young for a CB, and Newman is still pretty young, although he is 29, he has plenty of pro-bowl years left, atleast 5. If we take a D-Back in round 1 it better be Reggie Nelson. End of stroy.
TNewFan41, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having to read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

TNewFan41
02-28-2007, 02:16 PM
How? You make no sense.

I said if we took any CB, I would like Chris Houston. Although we shouldn't take one at all because we DON'T NEED ONE. How does that make no sense?

bigmac076
02-28-2007, 02:32 PM
How? You make no sense.

I said if we took any CB, I would like Chris Houston. Although we shouldn't take one at all because we DON'T NEED ONE. How does that make no sense?
We need a more physical press CB for Phillips' 3-4. I have said over and over. Henry is the perfect man to slide over and play the centerfiled position becuse of his height and coverage skills. Plus Watkins can develop even further. Watkins will be learning a new defense in only his second year, essentially making him a rookie again. Henry has the awareness to slide over and learn the new defense and help Watkins along the way. That is why we NEED an NFL ready press corner like Hall, Ross, or Revis in the first round to step in and start next season. Now the rookie CB will have Aaron Glenn to tutor him along during training camp. Theres no sense in keeping Glenn and Henry together at the same position, with a total of 21 years of NFL experience. And meanwhile(like you said we draft Reggie Nelson to play FS), we have a total of 1 year of NFL experience between Watkins and a rookie safety like Nelson. Does not make sense. Any questions?

TNewFan41
02-28-2007, 02:41 PM
We don't NEED a CB. I don't care about Watkins. Nelson is a beast. If we pick a DB in round 1, it should be Nelson.

bigmac076
02-28-2007, 03:03 PM
We don't NEED a CB. I don't care about Watkins. Nelson is a beast. If we pick a DB in round 1, it should be Nelson.
What do you mean you dont care about Watkins? That is the mose unintelligent post I have ever seen. We have to make something of last years draft. Watkins has the potential to be a starter someday under the right tutelage. You can't let your love for one prospect disrupt the process of building a powerhouse defense. Not intelligent.

D-Unit
02-28-2007, 03:08 PM
To me it's based on several factors.

The first is that Other than LT and QB, CB and DE / WOLB's have the most impact on a team and thus command the highest prices / are the most scarce.

The second is that since, FA's of high caliber at CB are so expensive, you have to build that position through the draft more often than not. Therefore, since the value is there at 22 for CB, but not at LT or QB or WOLB for us, it makes the most sense to draft one at that spot.

Third is that unlike say OL, a backup CB will get significant playing time. CB's play ST, may or may not be able to return punts / kickoffs, they can play in the nickle or as a starter if a change to Henry's position were to be made.

Fourth is that unlike say OL or even DL or some other positions, high quality CBs typically are early draft picks. This is because, although technique is important, speed is not something you can coach up. You just don't find alot of guys running 4.4 or less in the second day of the draft.

Last is that DB's make up almost 40% of your defense and in many cases a DB can play several positions. WOLB for instance plays ONE position. Versatility is always valuable. (ALSO do not forget that DB is the position in the NFL with the second most injuries **RB being the most likely to be injured). This means you can never have too many quality DBs, but you can have too many quality QB, WOLB or LT's.
Here's my point of view...

In regards to your first point, I can accept the rationale there. I would also include RB as a high impact position with high costs tied to the position. But that's besides the point. I agree with you about a cornerback's impact and expense. What I want to point out is that we are already at that point. We already have invested a lot of money into the position with Henry. He's got the big contract. We already have spent big time first round pick money on Newman and he's due for another big extention after this season. We're at the point where we are in the prime of receiving a return on our investment. If we didn't have a big FA signing (Henry) or a first round pick investment (Newman), then yeah, I could see us using our first pick on a CB. But by selecting another first round pick on CB, when we have already invested a lot, we are divying up more resources than I think we need to or can afford to. It's too big of a chunk out of the pie in this salary cap age.

You second point is similar to your first point in regards to expense and commanding high prices... but in regards to limiting those positions as being first round draft worthy because of impact, I would have to slightly disagree once again. Yes, they are worthy, but no, it should not be limited to them. I think that an impact player can come from any position. It really depends on the skill level of the player and his fit in the team's scheme and his role/playing time. ...and Safety can certainly fit in that mix of being first round worthy. Look at Bob Sanders impact with the Colts... Troy Polamalu - Steelers, Rodney Harrison -Pats, John Lynch - Tampa, Ed Reed - Baltimore... all of whom were huge impacts on their SB winning teams and still are for the most part... In the past teams were able to find good safeties in the second round and beyond, but today's NFL is different and so must our mindset on the position change as well. It can't be so cookie cutter that we just say, here are the positions that deserve a first round pick. If you got a chance to get a big time playmaker, you take him because he will provide an impact.

As to your third point, I get that back up corners get a decent amount of playing time, but mostly every back up has a role on special teams or they simply don't suit up. Do they really get more playing time than say a guy in a RB by committee? more than a #3 WR? more than along the DL? LB? I really think that the positions that don't get a lot of rotation during the games are QB and OL... other than that, guys are running in and out of games pretty frequently. ...and one thing I'd have to say is that in the last few years where we've had Jacquez Reeves and Nate Jones sitting on the sidelines, they really haven't gotten that much playing time unless Henry was injured. Glenn got a lot of PT at Nickel Back... but we shouldn't be spending our first round pick on a Nickel Back.

#4, I agree you can't teach speed, but look at the guys who are projected in Round 3 or later... Johnathan Wade (4.36), Fred Bennett (4.46), Tarrell Brown (4.45), David Irons (4.44), DeAndre Jackson (4.49), CJ Gattis (4.45)... Even Round 2 guys like McCauley, Josh Wilson, Eric Wright ran just as fast if not faster than the Round 1 projected prospects.... You just don't have to draft a corner in Round 1 to make sure you get a fast guy.

5th... well... can't injuries occur at any position? It's good to have depth everywhere. I'm all for adding depth to corner... but not with a first round pick investment.

So that said, I'm still not convinced that we have to go corner with our first pick.

LSUALUM99
02-28-2007, 04:49 PM
D-Unit,

I agree with alot of what you are saying. I'm inclined to still disagree based on the notion that at 22 there is alot of value at CB, more so than at any other position for the Dallas Cowboys. By value I mean I think the CB talent will be better than at S. I also think the difference between a good corner and an average corner affects your team more than the difference between a good safety and an average safety.

And yes, injuries can happen at any position. But, historically they happen to a greater degree to DB's than any other position than RB.

Truth be told, I don't think that ANY player we draft at 22 is going to start on day 1. I think for that reason, we should draft the BPA UNLESS it's at a position of strength and youth for us. Those positions are RB, QB and arguably DE. I say DE because we have 3 young guys who are all physically talented enough to play the position. They may just not be as developed as we need. To me the BPA will be a CB. Now, things change and FA may adress this as could a player dropping in the draft could change things. But as of right now, CB makes the most sense to me.

mtmock
02-28-2007, 05:38 PM
TNewFan41, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this forum is now dumber for having to read it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

o. i love billy madison! :)

Paul
02-28-2007, 05:50 PM
I Agree with D-UNIT 100 friggin %. CB is far down my list on needs. Reggie Nelson or bust.

D-Unit
02-28-2007, 06:11 PM
I Agree with D-UNIT 100 friggin %. CB is far down my list on needs. Reggie Nelson or bust.
I don't mind CB after round 1.

LSUALUM99
02-28-2007, 11:39 PM
Here's my question. What position do you want other than Safety?

Paul
03-01-2007, 12:13 AM
Here's my question. What position do you want other than Safety?

I, Myself would want(in order):
OG
WR
K
CB/OT

Now of course if we take care of some of these in FA, then CB would be...Slightly more attractive in the 1st.

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 12:50 AM
I, Myself would want(in order):
OG
WR
K
CB/OT

Now of course if we take care of some of these in FA, then CB would be...Slightly more attractive in the 1st.

I think drafting a Wr is pointless and I dont see us going Guard because, we the team is already talking about signing such vets as Leonard Davis or Steinbach. I'd be pretty surprised if we dont go CB or S. Lets say Hall fell to 22, you wouldnt want us to take him?

bigmac076
03-01-2007, 12:53 AM
I think drafting a Wr is pointless and I dont see us going Guard because, we the team is already talking about signing such vets as Leonard Davis or Steinbach. I'd be pretty surprised if we dont go CB or S. Lets say Hall fell to 22, you wouldnt want us to take him?
I would take Hall at 22, no question. that is a steal. Its a fact that Hall is not a popular guy on this board, because in the Fantasy Off-Season Mock Draft, he actuallly DID fall to us at #22, with the Giants taking Ross as the first CB. Too bad in real life, NFL team scouts won't be as ignorant to let him slide that far.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 12:56 AM
I would take Hall at 22, no question. that is a steal.
If Brady Quinn is there, I would take him too.

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 01:07 AM
There is actually a possibility that Hall could fall. Either him or Revis could see himself slipping in this draft. Of course, I was speaking hypothetically before.

In all honesty, I cant see any other pick other than S or Cb that makes any sense. We're already looking at FA guards, We have some nice youth at WR... in Crayton, Austin, and Hurd. (Wasnt a problem area last season either) Say a guy like Levi is some how available, I could see us passing on him... Flozell still has got a few years left in the tank and we're about to lock up Colombo. We're stacked at LB, there is no NT worth taking in the first, and with Spears, Canty, and Hatcher a 1st DE would be another wasted selection. It has to be Corner or Safety.

Paul
03-01-2007, 01:18 AM
I think drafting a Wr is pointless and I dont see us going Guard because, we the team is already talking about signing such vets as Leonard Davis or Steinbach. I'd be pretty surprised if we dont go CB or S. Lets say Hall fell to 22, you wouldnt want us to take him?

Oh I want a safety, thats for sure. But he asked what other position other then S would we want in the 1st. But If Hall and Nelson were still on the board at 22, It's all about Nelson for me.

As for WR, I'm not in love with Miles and Hurd as others are. IF we could get Allison, C Davis and etc in the 1st day, I'm all for that.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 02:41 AM
Here's my question. What position do you want other than Safety?
Easy. OLB. Easy. There should be some outstanding players available for us at that position. Jarvis Moss would be a tremendous pick up for us. Moss on one side and Ware on the other would be absolutely sssssssssick! Oooooohhhwee!! If he's not there, we could find great value if Anthony Spencer or Charles Johnson are on the board. I highly doubt all 3 will be gone.

Greg Ellis is in the twighlight of his career, coming off season ending injury, fresh off learning a new position. Fact of the matter is our season tanked when he went down because we had no answer there. Even if he's ready for the beginning of the season, Moss will have some time to groom behind him.

Carpenter's role should continue to be inside. He's got a year under his belt at the position and his skill set is suited nicely inside. I expect him to be able to give us the blitz pressure up the middle on passing downs and be able to stuff the run while withstanding constant hitting. His instincts, range and ability to shed blockers makes him a nice fit at Strong Side Inside Linebacker.

So if not Safety? SOLB. ...and I wouldn't be upset with Tyler either.

LSUALUM99
03-01-2007, 02:54 AM
I guess that's where we differ. I think that Bobby Carpenter is the SOLB. I see no other reason why. If he's not, then why did we draft him last year?

If we want speed inside I think Burnett should move inside more than Carp. I think an OLB would be a waste of a pick in the first round.

I don't see how you can say that we're better off at CB than at OLB. None of our starting LB's is over 30 (Assuming either Carp or Burnett is the starter next year) and 2 of our top 3 CB's are 30+.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 04:30 AM
I guess that's where we differ. I think that Bobby Carpenter is the SOLB. I see no other reason why. If he's not, then why did we draft him last year?

If we want speed inside I think Burnett should move inside more than Carp. I think an OLB would be a waste of a pick in the first round.

I don't see how you can say that we're better off at CB than at OLB. None of our starting LB's is over 30 (Assuming either Carp or Burnett is the starter next year) and 2 of our top 3 CB's are 30+.
I guess so. If we address FS in FA and Carp is the future at SOLB in Phillips' plan, then I could deal with a corner... I'd much rather trade down, pick up Tyler and another pick... but... trade talk is always day dream and not worthy of real discussion imo.

I'm not ready to assume Carp is the future at SOLB. Right now he's had a year at ILB and is still slated there, so until news breaks that he's making a move to the outside, I'm hesitant on making that assumption. Could happen, just saying, I'm not ready to assume it.

I do think that we did draft Carp to be our SOLB originally, but I think his role changed when BP saw him closer up in training camp. I think that if he was going to be the future at SOLB, then BP would've keep him behind Ellis.

As for Burnett, I like his fit at WOLB behind Ware.

As far as our needs on Defense, I'll break it down Bill Parcells style:

Need to have:
NT
FS
SOLB

Would like to have:
Donnie Edwards
Veteran DE

Nice to have:
CB

leroyisgod
03-01-2007, 07:35 AM
I guess so. If we address FS in FA and Carp is the future at SOLB in Phillips' plan, then I could deal with a corner... I'd much rather trade down, pick up Tyler and another pick... but... trade talk is always day dream and not worthy of real discussion imo.

I'm not ready to assume Carp is the future at SOLB. Right now he's had a year at ILB and is still slated there, so until news breaks that he's making a move to the outside, I'm hesitant on making that assumption. Could happen, just saying, I'm not ready to assume it.

I do think that we did draft Carp to be our SOLB originally, but I think his role changed when BP saw him closer up in training camp. I think that if he was going to be the future at SOLB, then BP would've keep him behind Ellis.

As for Burnett, I like his fit at WOLB behind Ware.

As far as our needs on Defense, I'll break it down Bill Parcells style:

Need to have:
NT
FS
SOLB

Would like to have:
Donnie Edwards
Veteran DE

Nice to have:
CB


Would you consider drafting another OLB in the first round?

LSUALUM99
03-01-2007, 09:22 AM
What do you mean he's had a year at ILB. He played primarily SOLB this year. The last game of the season he played almost exclusively at SOLB and came away with a monster game.

I do not think that Donnie Edwards would even start for us this year. Burnett has all the physical tools to play inside or outside. If you feel that Carpenter is the ILB then you have Ellis on the outside and Burnett on the outside. I just dont think that Edwards is even a starter for us....signing him does nothing for me at all.

I do agree that James and Ayodele do not offer a 'donnie edwards esque' player in the middle. But then again, when did he have that in Buffalo either? I do not want a guy that will be 34 in April to be signed on defense or offense (other than QB, that is WAYYYY too old for a FA). I think Burnett has the similar physical ability as Donnie Edwards and is quite a bit Bigger (Edwards is listed at 227 lbs).

bigbluedefense
03-01-2007, 10:31 AM
I guess that's where we differ. I think that Bobby Carpenter is the SOLB. I see no other reason why. If he's not, then why did we draft him last year?

If we want speed inside I think Burnett should move inside more than Carp. I think an OLB would be a waste of a pick in the first round.

I don't see how you can say that we're better off at CB than at OLB. None of our starting LB's is over 30 (Assuming either Carp or Burnett is the starter next year) and 2 of our top 3 CB's are 30+.

Bobby Carpenter is tricky. His development can be severely hindered over the course of the next 2 years if not handled properly. In BP's scheme, he is a SOLB, in that style of scheme the SAM is asked to play like a Carl Banks/Mike Vrabel type of role.

But in Phillips scheme, theres almost no distinction between WILL and SAM. Its essentially 2 pass rushing DE/OLBs on the edges. Theyre almost exclusively pass rushers. So in that case, you want Ware and Ellis on the edge, and Carpenter inside. Phillips uses his SILB the way BP uses his SAM. Carpenter is known for having good TE coverage, coupled with the ability to rush the passer and thats the role of the SILB for Wade.

The problem is, all this moving around will hinder his development. He needs one role, and he needs to work on that one role. So that could be a problem if not handled correctly.

nrcirc
03-01-2007, 10:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3o2ULj5IsQ

This video make me believe we should draft Nelson. With Roy Williams and Nelson, WRs should be aware that they may get hurt when they play us . If we draft Nelson, he may start over Watkins. I don't think any CB will start over Henry this year and I don't think any CB will have big impact as Nelson for the cowboys this year.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 12:03 PM
Bobby Carpenter is tricky. His development can be severely hindered over the course of the next 2 years if not handled properly. In BP's scheme, he is a SOLB, in that style of scheme the SAM is asked to play like a Carl Banks/Mike Vrabel type of role.

But in Phillips scheme, theres almost no distinction between WILL and SAM. Its essentially 2 pass rushing DE/OLBs on the edges. Theyre almost exclusively pass rushers. So in that case, you want Ware and Ellis on the edge, and Carpenter inside. Phillips uses his SILB the way BP uses his SAM. Carpenter is known for having good TE coverage, coupled with the ability to rush the passer and thats the role of the SILB for Wade.

The problem is, all this moving around will hinder his development. He needs one role, and he needs to work on that one role. So that could be a problem if not handled correctly.
That's HUGE. Just further solidifies why Carp should play SILB.

LSUALUM99
03-01-2007, 12:14 PM
So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.

bigbluedefense
03-01-2007, 12:17 PM
That's HUGE. Just further solidifies why Carp should play SILB.

I like how he wouldve been used in BP's scheme. I think thats where he's at his best. He can still work at SAM in Wade's scheme, but he's not as good of a pass rusher as a Greg Ellis.

The main concern should be his ability against the run at ILB. Its very different from the role he was used to with BP. Now he's gonna have to butt heads with olinemen. Can he do it? We don't know. It worked fine and dandy in SD for Edwards because of Jamal Williams, but Carp doesn't have that anchor in Dallas. He will have to hit the weightroom and get stronger. But he can't get bigger in the process, because that will hinder his coverage skills.

He has to work on technique and strength while maintaining speed and body weight.

So like I said, this is very complicated and could have some consequences. But it also could have big rewards. How its handled will be very important. Like I said earlier, the most important piece of this Dallas defense is TC. That will be very important in how this defense develops.

Modano
03-01-2007, 12:22 PM
So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.

I totally agree with you, LSU. You always make good points..
During the wildcard game (the only one Carpenter started this year) he was putting some pressure.. More than Ware.. He battled down two passes in front of Hasselbeck while rushing him.. So I think that he could be a 10 sacks guy for us, and I also think that in Phillips scheme the OLB will have to cover the RB and the TE too and not only rush the QB everytime..

bigbluedefense
03-01-2007, 12:31 PM
So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.

I gotta look at more games then. From what I saw, Phillips came off the edge early and often, and Edwards covered the TE. If Phillips dropped back, it was a soft zone, something anybody could do. He never had man responsibilties with the TE from what I saw. I could be wrong though.

I agree with everything you said about Carp. The thing is, I don't know if he's a pass rusher first/coverage 2nd type of player. To me he's a great coverage LB who can provide quality pass rushing if called upon. Like a Marcus Washington type. Im not saying you guys should draft a OLB, but with what Wade likes to do, I don't think it would be an entirely bad idea either.

You make a good point on Ellis. Its tough, you don't know what will happen until Wade gets them in TC and sees what he can do with the pieces he has.

bigmac076
03-01-2007, 12:34 PM
to quote a earlier post of mine

Theres no sense in keeping Glenn and Henry together at the same position, with a total of 21 years of NFL experience. And meanwhile(like you said we draft Reggie Nelson to play FS), we have a total of 1 year of NFL experience between Watkins and a rookie safety like Nelson. Does not make sense.

leroyisgod
03-01-2007, 12:52 PM
If Phillips style 3-4 defense is to have two pass rushing OLB's on the outside, then Ware/Ellis makes sense. Then that would even justify drafting someone like Jarvis Moss in the 1st round. Let's face it, Ellis might have 2 more good years in him.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 01:22 PM
So let me get this straight. Carp should be moved to ILB despite the fact that he's a good pash rusher and Wade uses his SOLB's as pass rushers?

That's not how I see it at all. Carp is a very good pash rusher and can cover the TE's at SOLB. Wade doesn't send two OLB's on every play. There are many occasions where the SOLB will be covering the TE and or the flats. To me, Carpenter is MUCH more well rounded than Ellis. Ellis is 31 years old and coming off a season ending injury. As far as I'm concerned Ellis shouldn't even be factored in for the coming year. If he's healthy then great, but you can't expect that.

I see absolutely no reason why Carp should move inside.
First of all, Carp wouldn't be "making a move" to ILB. He'd be staying there. Secondly, Carp would fare well at SOLB or SILB...perhaps even WILB. We could debate back and forth where he should or shouldn't play, but until Phillips unfolds that info, we're pretty much left to assume. I'm assuming he's staying where he is. You're assuming he's moving to the outside. It's a flip of the coin.

Another thing is, we need to be able to generate a pass rush from the middle linebackers and Carp should fare well in doing so.

I agree with you on Ellis. That's why I think it needs to be addressed... and the first round is a great place to do it.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 01:23 PM
I totally agree with you, LSU. You always make good points..
During the wildcard game (the only one Carpenter started this year) he was putting some pressure.. More than Ware.. He battled down two passes in front of Hasselbeck while rushing him.. So I think that he could be a 10 sacks guy for us, and I also think that in Phillips scheme the OLB will have to cover the RB and the TE too and not only rush the QB everytime..
One game shouldn't determine the career position of a player. How's that for a good point?

Modano
03-01-2007, 01:31 PM
One game shouldn't determine the career position of a player. How's that for a good point?

You're right, but that was the only game he started so far.. And Carpenter played OLB since Ellis went down.. Singleton and Carpenter were playing opposite Ware on the outside.. If I remember right he never played a snap on the inside this year.. He was in the nickel package and alternating series with Singleton on the strong side..

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 01:32 PM
I gotta look at more games then. From what I saw, Phillips came off the edge early and often, and Edwards covered the TE. If Phillips dropped back, it was a soft zone, something anybody could do. He never had man responsibilties with the TE from what I saw. I could be wrong though.

I agree with everything you said about Carp. The thing is, I don't know if he's a pass rusher first/coverage 2nd type of player. To me he's a great coverage LB who can provide quality pass rushing if called upon. Like a Marcus Washington type. Im not saying you guys should draft a OLB, but with what Wade likes to do, I don't think it would be an entirely bad idea either.

You make a good point on Ellis. Its tough, you don't know what will happen until Wade gets them in TC and sees what he can do with the pieces he has.
I hear that! Donnie has been an amazing coverage LB with range that allowed him to be everywhere... stuffing the run or dropping back in coverage.

Exactly why I want him here. He knows the ins and outs of WP's scheme and will be able to be a mentor to our young guys while still being able to play at a high level when he's on the field. He's not young anymore and fitting him in a rotation would be ideal for him. It must come at a reasonable cost however.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 01:37 PM
Theres no sense in keeping Glenn and Henry together at the same position, with a total of 21 years of NFL experience. And meanwhile(like you said we draft Reggie Nelson to play FS), we have a total of 1 year of NFL experience between Watkins and a rookie safety like Nelson. Does not make sense.
That sir, makes absolutely no sense to me. Glenn is our nickel back. Technically a different position than Henry. Secondly, who says you have to even out your NFL experience at every position in order to make sure everything is fine and dandy? That is the worst logic ever!

TNewFan41
03-01-2007, 01:54 PM
I agree D-Unit. No offense BigMac, but that is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen.

Moving Henry to FS is so stupid. He is one of the best #2 CBs in the league. He is going to stay there. We wouldn't even be talking about this if we had pressure.

bigmac076
03-01-2007, 02:41 PM
I agree D-Unit. No offense BigMac, but that is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen.

Moving Henry to FS is so stupid. He is one of the best #2 CBs in the league. He is going to stay there. We wouldn't even be talking about this if we had pressure.
oh because your the master of dumb posts right?!?!?! HAHAHAHA

oh wait... you are.

Listen my main reasoning for moving Henry over is because hes taller and great coverage skills. You never read that part.

Go Cowboys
03-01-2007, 02:54 PM
I agree D-Unit. No offense BigMac, but that is one of the dumbest post I have ever seen.

Moving Henry to FS is so stupid. He is one of the best #2 CBs in the league. He is going to stay there. We wouldn't even be talking about this if we had pressure.

Henry top #2 corner in the league? No thank you. He is a great player but he is not that good. I think moving him to FS is the better move if we get a Corner, He had knee problems and therefore had trouble in man to man. I think Henry can be the cover guy we need to help Roy up top. IMO Henry isn't lockdown enough as much as he gets thrown at, if he were the best #2 then no one would have any passing TD's against us except for deep in zone over the middle.

bigbluedefense
03-01-2007, 03:30 PM
oh because your the master of dumb posts right?!?!?! HAHAHAHA

oh wait... you are.

Listen my main reasoning for moving Henry over is because hes taller and great coverage skills. You never read that part.

Actually, height could be a hindrance at the FS position. If youre too tall, you'll have a harder time changing direction, which is something safeties must do very well.

That is why Watkins fell to the 5th despite his sick measureables. He was considered too tall and people questioned his change of direction abilities. It can be great for TE coverage, which is why I like the idea of sticking Watkins on the TE, but it can also have its downside as well.

The prototypical safety height is like 6 0", maybe 6 1.

mtmock
03-01-2007, 05:46 PM
next year LB should be:

LOLB ILB ILB ROLB
1.Carp Burnett Bradie James Ware
2.Ellis Ayodele 3rdBest ILB in 3rd best OLB in TC
TC

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 06:02 PM
Actually Carp has a lot of pass rushing skills...when he was recruited to college he was a DE....and was until they decided to put him at LB...idk how many sacks he had his last year in college but he was recruited as a DE...i think our LB core should look like this...

LOLB ILB ILB ROLB
1.Carp Burnett Bradie James Ware
2.Ellis Ayodele 3rdBest ILB in 3rd best OLB in TC
TC
Actually, nobody is saying he lacks pass rush ability. Now, saying that doesn't mean I think he's a sack artist, cause I don't think that he is that. Just that he has some ability. I question his speed and to turn the corner and his pass rush moves/technique. I like his fit in the middle. When was the last time we got pressure on the QB from our ILBs? Well, isn't that part of what makes the 3-4 so great? The ability to disguise the blitz from any angle? That part has been missing in our defense. Bobby in the middle sounds like a great way to provide that.

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 07:20 PM
OLB in the first round? We have way too much money invested in Bradie and Akin in the middle to be moving Carp to one of the ILB positions. Carp was drafted to be a pass rushing OLB, he showed some flashes in his limited play. With some guys it just takes longer for them to get it, I'm not ready to go spend another 1st round selection on a LB that we dont even need. Why add another LB to a solid 5 LB mix? Doesnt make any sense and to give up on Carp as an outside pass rusher at this point, once again makes zero sense.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 07:23 PM
OLB in the first round? We have way too much money invested in Bradie and Akin in the middle to be moving Carp to one of the ILB positions. Carp was drafted to be a pass rushing OLB, he showed some flashes in his limited play. With some guys it just takes longer for them to get it, I'm not ready to go spend another 1st round selection on a LB that we dont even need. Why add another LB to a solid 5 LB mix? Doesnt make any sense and to give up on Carp as an outside pass rusher at this point, once again makes zero sense.
Tell that to Wade Phillips who has been interviewing the likes of Dan Bazuin, Charles Johnson and Brian Robison... Notice a trend? Make sense now?

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 07:27 PM
Tell that to Wade Phillips who has been interviewing the likes of Dan Bazuin, Charles Johnson and Brian Robison... Notice a trend? Make sense now?

None of those guys is a 1st rounder. Those are depths guys with the ability to play both positions.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 07:43 PM
None of those guys is a 1st rounder. Those are depths guys with the ability to play both positions.
Dunno if you haven't heard of Charles Johnson before, but he is widely considered a first round player. Scott has him going to Denver at pick 21. Kiper has him at 19 on his newly released Big Board... Check out all the experts... He is a top prospect.

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 07:48 PM
Dunno if you haven't heard of Charles Johnson before, but he is widely considered a first round player. Scott has him going to Denver at pick 21. Kiper has him at 19 on his newly released Big Board... Check out all the experts... He is a top prospect.

There isnt a player in this draft I havent heard about. To be honest I didnt see him on your list. He is a DE through and through and I see no reason in even considering him. We already have three potentially great DEs.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 07:54 PM
There isnt a player in this draft I havent heard about. To be honest I didnt see him on your list. He is a DE through and through and I see no reason in even considering him. We already have three potentially great DEs.
He wouldn't be a DE in our system. He would be an OLB. All of those players are big around the 270 pound range. Cowboys have already talked to him about playing the position. He also looked good at the Combine in his LB drills.

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 08:02 PM
He wouldn't be a DE in our system. He would be an OLB. All of those players are big around the 270 pound range. Cowboys have already talked to him about playing the position. He also looked good at the Combine in his LB drills.

He did have a promising combine but, I'm still not sold on him as a 3-4 OLB. I really cant see us taking another hybrid type player in the first. He ran in the 4.8 range I believe...correct? I still like him better as a 4-3 End.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 08:14 PM
He did have a promising combine but, I'm still not sold on him as a 3-4 OLB. I really cant see us taking another hybrid type player in the first. He ran in the 4.8 range I believe...correct? I still like him better as a 4-3 End.
You're straying from the point. The point being that Wade Phillips is putting a premium on OLB.

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 08:27 PM
You're straying from the point. The point being that Wade Phillips is putting a premium on OLB.

Straying from the point... non-intentional.

Anway... I dont really understand why. We have loads of cash invested in our two young MLBs. I understand we need to improve the pass-rush but, I dont see any reason to give up on Carp. Obviously, drafting a high round LB/DE means Carp is more likely than not moving inside, where he will be stuck. I can see us taking one of these hybrid guys later in the draft like a Robinson or a Bazuin (two of my favs) to say, spell Carp but, as for a first round hybrid... it would baffle me. Unless of course, we plan on releasing Akin or Bradie but, i really do not see that happening, at all. Things are going to get pretty interesting.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 08:29 PM
Straying from the point... non-intentional.

Anway... I dont really understand why. We have loads of cash invested in our two young MLBs. I understand we need to improve the pass-rush but, I dont see any reason to give up on Carp. Obviously, drafting a high round LB/DE means Carp is more likely than not moving inside, where he will be stuck. I can see us taking one of these hybrid guys later in the draft like a Robinson or a Bazuin (two of my favs) to say, spell Carp but, as for a first round hybrid... it would baffle me. Unless of course, we plan on releasing Akin or Bradie but, i really do not see that happening, at all. Things are going to get pretty interesting.
When did Carp move to SOLB?

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 08:37 PM
When did Carp move to SOLB?

By seasons end Carp was playing just about every LB position and he was playing well. Ware was switching between both OLB positions when Ellis went down and Carp was frequently getting time opposite him.

D-Unit
03-01-2007, 08:47 PM
By seasons end Carp was playing just about every LB position and he was playing well. Ware was switching between both OLB positions when Ellis went down and Carp was frequently getting time opposite him.
If he was playing everywhere, then he's not really "moving" to ILB. Right?

If he was playing opposite of Ware... Then how come we stunk it up after Ellis went down? He obviously wasn't playing that good. Our defense lost a lot when Ellis went down...especially in our pass rush. Many experts would agree.

M.O.T.H.
03-01-2007, 09:03 PM
If he was playing everywhere, then he's not really "moving" to ILB. Right?

If he was playing opposite of Ware... Then how come we stunk it up after Ellis went down? He obviously wasn't playing that good. Our defense lost a lot when Ellis went down...especially in our pass rush. Many experts would agree.

He wasnt playing that well at all. The last few games of the season he started to show some flashes and of course he had that "break out" game against the Hawks. We're not guranteed anything with Carp, he hasnt shown us enough yet but, he has only played in 13 games with the majority of his PT coming on Special Teams, to draft another high round hybrid would just be a mistake IMO....right now. Wade should at least give it a year in his defense to see what kind of a player Bobby actually is. As of right Bobby doesnt even have a definite position, BP moved him inside intially and when Ellis got hurt, he went back to playing OLB. All I know is that we can not... can not have our expensive 1st round LB playing behind two young ILBs. He's gotta play and that is probably going to come as a SOLB. Now, i agree we must improve our pass rush but, I think we have the players in house. Ratliff, Hatcher, and Coleman were all solid nickel pass rushers. Of course we have Canty and Spears, both of which are very talented but, that havent put it together. Most scouts had Spears as a 10+ sack guy by year 3. Who knows what Wade's aggresive pass rush friendly D could do for these guys. As for the first round... I just think safety seems like a much more pressing need and if we lose Crayton, WR becomes a bit of need as well. It's not up to me but, if it was, I wouldnt touch the LB position until the 3rd round, just for some depth.

LSUALUM99
03-01-2007, 10:04 PM
If it were up to me I wouldn't draft a LB until after the 1st round. The only LB I would consider drafting is Patrick Willis. That is just an SEC bias I have based on watching Willis play. I think he has the skills to be another very high impact ILB.

My ideal draft (FA not withstanding) is CB then WR then OL on the first day.

BTW Jeff Ireland mentioned the two positions of the most depth this year in the draft are WR and OL. That's always good news.

JJJ888
03-02-2007, 08:19 AM
Here's my point of view...

In regards to your first point, I can accept the rationale there. I would also include RB as a high impact position with high costs tied to the position. But that's besides the point. I agree with you about a cornerback's impact and expense. What I want to point out is that we are already at that point. We already have invested a lot of money into the position with Henry. He's got the big contract. We already have spent big time first round pick money on Newman and he's due for another big extention after this season. We're at the point where we are in the prime of receiving a return on our investment. If we didn't have a big FA signing (Henry) or a first round pick investment (Newman), then yeah, I could see us using our first pick on a CB. But by selecting another first round pick on CB, when we have already invested a lot, we are divying up more resources than I think we need to or can afford to. It's too big of a chunk out of the pie in this salary cap age.

You second point is similar to your first point in regards to expense and commanding high prices... but in regards to limiting those positions as being first round draft worthy because of impact, I would have to slightly disagree once again. Yes, they are worthy, but no, it should not be limited to them. I think that an impact player can come from any position. It really depends on the skill level of the player and his fit in the team's scheme and his role/playing time. ...and Safety can certainly fit in that mix of being first round worthy. Look at Bob Sanders impact with the Colts... Troy Polamalu - Steelers, Rodney Harrison -Pats, John Lynch - Tampa, Ed Reed - Baltimore... all of whom were huge impacts on their SB winning teams and still are for the most part... In the past teams were able to find good safeties in the second round and beyond, but today's NFL is different and so must our mindset on the position change as well. It can't be so cookie cutter that we just say, here are the positions that deserve a first round pick. If you got a chance to get a big time playmaker, you take him because he will provide an impact.

As to your third point, I get that back up corners get a decent amount of playing time, but mostly every back up has a role on special teams or they simply don't suit up. Do they really get more playing time than say a guy in a RB by committee? more than a #3 WR? more than along the DL? LB? I really think that the positions that don't get a lot of rotation during the games are QB and OL... other than that, guys are running in and out of games pretty frequently. ...and one thing I'd have to say is that in the last few years where we've had Jacquez Reeves and Nate Jones sitting on the sidelines, they really haven't gotten that much playing time unless Henry was injured. Glenn got a lot of PT at Nickel Back... but we shouldn't be spending our first round pick on a Nickel Back.

#4, I agree you can't teach speed, but look at the guys who are projected in Round 3 or later... Johnathan Wade (4.36), Fred Bennett (4.46), Tarrell Brown (4.45), David Irons (4.44), DeAndre Jackson (4.49), CJ Gattis (4.45)... Even Round 2 guys like McCauley, Josh Wilson, Eric Wright ran just as fast if not faster than the Round 1 projected prospects.... You just don't have to draft a corner in Round 1 to make sure you get a fast guy.

5th... well... can't injuries occur at any position? It's good to have depth everywhere. I'm all for adding depth to corner... but not with a first round pick investment.

So that said, I'm still not convinced that we have to go corner with our first pick.

Back to the CB discussion, I understand the sentiment that at some point we will need a top of the line CB to replace Henry and Glenn, but it does not make sense to me to take that player in the first round of this year's draft. Any corner we take would most likely sit behind Henry and Glenn. One of the main goals of the first round of any draft is to take a player who can be an impact player right away...a CB would not. I believe that there are a lot of guys in the middle rounds who could easily be developed into serviceable, if not very good nickel corners or even starters, including the guys listed above.

JJJ888
03-02-2007, 08:20 AM
He did have a promising combine but, I'm still not sold on him as a 3-4 OLB. I really cant see us taking another hybrid type player in the first. He ran in the 4.8 range I believe...correct? I still like him better as a 4-3 End.

His teammate Quentin Moses ran a 4.8...I believe Johnson ran higher, but IMO, still not good enough to really be considered as a 3-4 OLB.