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TacticaLion
07-25-2008, 10:06 PM
Intro

It's easy to hate the Lions. They didn't make a huge splash in the offseason, targeted need (and not BPA) during the draft and finished the 2007 season losing 7 of their last 8 games. Most preseason predictions have the Lions finishing with a losing record and last in the NFC North, but there's another side to the coin. Could the Lions finish the 2008 season with a winning record? It's possible. Here are 4 reasons why:

4 Reasons For Success

1. The Losing Streak

Yes, the Lions lost 7 of their last 8 games, but they played one of, if not the hardest, schedule during the second half of the 2007 season: the Packers (twice), the Chargers, the Giants, the Cowboys, the Vikings, the Cardinals and the Chiefs. They beat the Chiefs (barely), lost to the Cowboys by 1 point (missed field goal and muffed fumble recovery led to the loss) and lost on the final drive to the Giants, a game the Champs won by 6 points. Looking a bit closer, those 7 losses are a bit deceiving.

2. "Marinelli's Team"

For the first time in his 3 year coaching career, Rod Marinelli finally has "his" team. The players have bought into the "Marinelli way", and it shows... from the effort on the field to the chemistry in the locker room. Every Detroit Lion is signed and participating in training camp (no hold outs or lingering contract situations) and Rod has players that fit the offensive and defensive schemes fighting for starting roles. The team is focused, determined and working harder than ever, and that mindset shouldn't be overlooked. It seems that the Detroit Lions are finally a team... made in Rod's image.

3. Offseason Changes

The 7-9 Detroit Lions of 2007 have lost little, but gained much, throughout the offseason. Yes, Shaun Rogers is a Cleveland Brown, Kevin Jones is a Chicago Bear and Damien Woody is a New York Jet, but each of those players had serious concerns and each hole was, for the most part, filled adequately. Chuck Darby, a hard-working veteran, will take over for Rogers at the NT position. Darby may not be the dominant force that Rogers was, but he's a harder worker who understands his responsibilities and wont wear down nearly as quickly as Rogers did. The oft-injured Kevin Jones was cut and replaced by Kevin Smith, an extremely talented back with great vision and a desire to succeed. Damien Woody, an OG/C with weight control issues, was replaced at RT by Gosder Cherilus, who should give the running game a punch and be a staple on the OLine for many years to come. The secondary was given a complete overhaul and should now be a strength, not a weakness, of the Detroit Lions' defense.

4. The Schedule

Detroit's 2008 schedule actually plays to their strengths. Throughout the 2007 season, Detroit played very well at home, outscoring their opponents 212-168, but seemed to lose their focus on the road, being outscored 276-134. Their hardest opponents (Washington, Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, Tennessee and New Orleans) come at home, while their "easier" games (Atlanta, San Francisco, Houston, Carolina) are played away. If Detroit can continue their 2007 trend and play well in Michigan, they might be able to steal a few on the road and end the season with a reasonable record.

The Offense

Instead of playing to the strengths of the roster, Mike Martz decided to leave average OLinemen in constant pass-protection and focused more on the slot receivers than on the "dynamic duo" of Roy Williams and Calvin Johnson (140 receptions by Furrey/McDonald and only 112 receptions by Roy/CJ). The running game was abandoned early and often, and the team struggled as a result.

New Offensive Coordinator Jim Colletto is keeping the same basic offense, but vows to run the ball on a regular basis in 2008. He changed the blocking scheme to a zone blocking scheme, the same scheme that led to Tatum Bell's success in Denver. Jon Kitna also now has the opportunity to change the play at the line, something not allowed in a Mike Martz offense. Drafting Gosder Cherilus (Rd 1) and Kevin Smith (Rd 3) shows a commitment to the changes, as each is a great fit for the direction of the offense.

The Problem: the running game. Tatum Bell is an average back, and understands the ZBS, but can't be relied on to carry the team throughout the season. Kevin Jones was cut, leaving room for rookie Kevin Smith to have a OROY-type impact. If he can't, the running game will struggle. If it does, expect Kitna to spend quite a bit of time on the ground and the offense to stall, drive after drive, like it did in 2007.

The Solution: the twin towers. There will be more emphasis on getting the ball (quickly) to Roy and CJ, which, if successful, will open up the running game and spread opposing defenses. If the changes to the offense can help the passing game click, expect the Lions to have surprising success on the ground, and, in turn, through the air, in 2008.

The Defense

The Detroit Lions' had the worst secondary in the NFL in 2007... and, as some of that was injuries, most of it was simply a lack of talent. That changed during the offseason. Leigh Bodden was acquired from Cleveland, Brian Kelly was signed, Dwight Smith was added and Daniel Bullocks should be healthy for the start of the 2008 season. That's potentially 4 new starters, each an upgrade over the player who held the position before him. It's easy to say that their largest defensive weakness was improved greatly.

Detroit's "biggest" loss, Shaun Rogers, wont have as much of an impact as many believe. When fit and motivated, Shaun Rogers is one of the best DTs in the NFL... but those situations were few and far between in Detroit. After a great start in 2007, Shaun disappeared down the stretch and the team struggled as a result. His replacement, Chuck Darby, is a high energy, experienced Cover 2 NT with a great motor. The position loses some of the "flash" with the departure of Rogers, but becomes more consistent overall with the addition of Darby.

The Problem: the pass-rush. Jared DeVries? Corey Smith? IAF? Cliff Avril? Someone has to step-up at LDE, and in a big way, for the Lions' defense to be a force in 2008. DeVries is opportunistic and a hard worker, but isn't flashy or explosive. Corey Smith has great speed off the edge, but lacks moves and gets pushed out of the play easily. IAF has a ton of potential, but is a work in progress and most likely wont be ready to break out in 2008. Cliff Avril, a 3rd round pick, might just be the answer. He combines a variety of moves with his incredible explosiveness and underestimated strength off the edge. If he can thrive as a situation pass-rusher, the unit might surprise in '08.

The Solution: role players. If the role players on Detroit's defense can have a big year, the defense could break out. Redding has to be a force, Darby has to be "good enough", the safety across from Dwight Smith has to step up, Dizon needs to emerge and have a solid rookie year and Dewayne White needs to show he's a solid RDE. It may sound like a lot, but Marinelli's pieces on defense are finally on the roster. If they can step up, so will the Lions.

Conclusion

All things considered, I think the Lions will finish the 2008 season with a 8-8 record. They've improved their defense, have play makers on offense and a schedule that plays to their strengths/weaknesses. If the Bears continue to fall and the Packers struggle to click without Favre, the Lions could find themselves sitting 2nd in the NFC North and fighting for a playoff berth through week 17.

GB12
07-25-2008, 10:09 PM
Uhh, team forum.

Edit: and yeah, no the Lions aren't going to be fighting for a playoff spot.

eaglesfan_45
07-25-2008, 10:13 PM
Yeah, Team Forum

But overall a good write-up

yo123
07-25-2008, 11:26 PM
Yeah, Team Forum

But overall a good write-up and you've convinced me that the Lions will not finish last in the NFC north........ The Bears will.


Wrong. The Lions will. The Bears have a better chance of winning the NFC North than finishing last.

casskid
07-26-2008, 01:31 AM
i dont think that kevin smith is the offense force that you make him out to be. while rb is a decently easy position to translate too, the Lions have a crap history with draft picks and at least every team passed on him twice.

Plus i think the loss of Rogers isnt a addition by subtraction equation. He was a force in the middle on rushing and passing plays and teams ran all over the Lions when he was out. I dont see that changing this year.

Addict
07-26-2008, 05:17 AM
Wrong. The Lions will. The Bears have a better chance of winning the NFC North than finishing last.

Actually no. While the bears will do better than last year... With the vikes and packers right there, they won't win the NFC North.

bearsfan_51
07-26-2008, 09:23 AM
If the Lions are the truth I'd rather hear a lie.

TacticaLion
07-26-2008, 11:03 AM
If the Lions are the truth I'd rather hear a lie.Yeah... I think you missed the point of the title. It's the truth about the Detroit Lions, not that the Detroit Lions are the truth.

In every preseason prediction, the Lions are a bottom 3 team and finishing with only 2-4 wins. That's ridiculous. "But they lost 7 of their last 8!" Yeah, they did, but that's a bit misleading.

Uhh, team forum.

Edit: and yeah, no the Lions aren't going to be fighting for a playoff spot.Uhh... fighting for a playoff spot in the NFC isn't really a great accomplishment. There are usually 4-5 teams fighting for the last 1-2 spots. It's not that unlikely.

GB12
07-26-2008, 11:26 AM
In every preseason prediction, the Lions are a bottom 3 team and finishing with only 2-4 wins. That's ridiculous. "But they lost 7 of their last 8!" Yeah, they did, but that's a bit misleading. Winning 6 of their first 8 is also a bit misleading.

Uhh... fighting for a playoff spot in the NFC isn't really a great accomplishment. There are usually 4-5 teams fighting for the last 1-2 spots. It's not that unlikely. And the Lions won't be one of them. Packers/Vikings, Eagles, Redskins, Cowboys/Giants, Saints/Bucs; Detroit really doesn't come close to any of those teams who are serious wildcard contenders. The Lions are a long way off from competing. Now I don't want to bash the Lions this much in the Detroit forum, in fact I would have stayed out of this if it wasn't in the NFL section when I saw it, but the Lions aren't a playoff team and I think even most Lions fans agree with that.

619
07-26-2008, 11:32 AM
If the Lions are the truth I'd rather hear a lie.

Amen to that sir.

bearsfan_51
07-26-2008, 11:33 AM
It's really not ridiculous if you consider almost everyone thinks the Lions will be bad. This includes the entire national media, the Detroit media, and most Lions fans. Obviously some of that is a general pessimism about the Lions, but pessimism makes a lot more logical sense as it relates to the Lions.

I think most people would agree that the Lions aren't making as many mind-blowingly stupid decisions. But as Michael Rosenberg of the Detroit Free Press stated: "The Lions are doing things right, but that doesn't mean they are doing things well." Simply not making ******** decisions does not a good team make.

And it's not easy to hate the Lions. It's easy to laugh at them. It's actually pretty hard to hate them.

yo123
07-26-2008, 02:32 PM
Actually no. While the bears will do better than last year... With the vikes and packers right there, they won't win the NFC North.



They probably won't. But there is about a 98% chance that the Lions finish last. And about a 10% chance the Bears win the North.

Addict
07-26-2008, 03:00 PM
They probably won't. But there is about a 98% chance that the Lions finish last. And about a 10% chance the Bears win the North.

if all you come to do on the Lions' team board is ***** about them, then just go back to the vikings forum and beat off to your own team. I honestly fail to see how this is fun for you, and if you really need to put another team down in order to feel good about your own, then you've got a problem.

Cunningham
07-26-2008, 03:27 PM
the lions are bad at all the things that a team needs to be good at in order to be successful in the nfl. it all starts in the trenches and the lions have one of worst offensive and defensive lines in the league. their starting quarterback is a journeyman who is closer to forty than he is to thirty. the lions also lack an established running game and will be overly reliant on the play of kevin smith.

Gay Ork Wang
07-26-2008, 03:43 PM
if all you come to do on the Lions' team board is ***** about them, then just go back to the bears forum and beat off to your own team. I honestly fail to see how this is fun for you, and if you really need to put another team down in order to feel good about your own, then you've got a problem.
He is a vikingsfan not a bearsfan ;)

Addict
07-26-2008, 05:10 PM
He is a vikingsfan not a bearsfan ;)

ah crap. I'll edit.

Prowler
07-26-2008, 05:24 PM
lions are going 7-9 this year. the vikings and bears fans have no idea what they are talking about with the lions. this is a different team than last year, different players, attitude, coordinator, etc. martz screwed us last year and the secondary let us down, those problems are fixed. now we have a high scoring offense and a chance in hell of stopping opposing teams every now and then which is better than last year. now we're unproven but potentially explosive. who are the bears and vikings passing attacks? its not like they put up 30 a game. ad is awesome but if the lions get an early lead then its over. as for the packers, well their icon doesn't care who he plays with this year and has no concern for them. that's gotta be bad karma with them this year, especially if the fans start chanting his name the first time they lose this season.

this division is way more competitive then people are saying.

WMD
07-26-2008, 08:56 PM
Lions will be worse than last year. Jon Kitna will be one year worse. We have no Play makers on defense. We have the 6th toughest schedule in the NFL. We have Jeff Backus.

yo123
07-26-2008, 10:06 PM
if all you come to do on the Lions' team board is ***** about them, then just go back to the vikings forum and beat off to your own team. I honestly fail to see how this is fun for you, and if you really need to put another team down in order to feel good about your own, then you've got a problem.



Haha, settle man. it's just funny to watch Lions fans get their hopes up every year. You won't compete for a playoff spot.

If I told you the Vikings were going undefeated this year you don't think Lions fans would jump all over me? Of course they would, because there is no way in hell it happens. Just like the Lions making the playoffs. They just aren't good enough right now.

And this thread started in the NFL forum.

Cunningham
07-26-2008, 11:01 PM
lions are going 7-9 this year. the vikings and bears fans have no idea what they are talking about with the lions. this is a different team than last year, different players, attitude, coordinator, etc. martz screwed us last year and the secondary let us down, those problems are fixed. now we have a high scoring offense and a chance in hell of stopping opposing teams every now and then which is better than last year. now we're unproven but potentially explosive. who are the bears and vikings passing attacks? its not like they put up 30 a game. ad is awesome but if the lions get an early lead then its over. as for the packers, well their icon doesn't care who he plays with this year and has no concern for them. that's gotta be bad karma with them this year, especially if the fans start chanting his name the first time they lose this season.

this division is way more competitive then people are saying.
who's your quarterback and how many offensive linemen do you have that are worth a damn? it doesn't matter what kind of receivers you got when john kitna is at qb and the offensive line consists of backus, foster, ect....

familyguy555
07-26-2008, 11:36 PM
bearsfan54- Dan Orlovsky is his name not Orlavsky. Ha i just noticed that.

619
07-26-2008, 11:57 PM
The Lions have the superfreak CJ. Yeah, other than that not much so no need to get your hopes up AGAIN. :)

Brodeur
07-26-2008, 11:59 PM
We have no Play makers on defense.

http://www.detroitlions.com/photos/Sims_Body_070731.jpg

Scotty D
07-27-2008, 12:07 AM
Tatica put some effort into his posts, to bad the trolls don't.

619
07-27-2008, 12:12 AM
Tatica put some effort into his posts, to bad the trolls don't.

It's easy to hate on the Lions. In all seriousness though the Lions must be given credit for actually drafting relatively well the past few seasons. Sims, CJ, Cherilus, Smith and maybe even Stanton are a good start. No reason to at least follow up on another 7-9 campaign if not any better this time around.

yo123
07-27-2008, 12:12 AM
Tatica put some effort into his posts, to bad the trolls don't.


I could give you a 5 paragraph essay on how the Lions won't make the playoffs. But I would just be retelling what every non Lions homer already knows, so I choose not to waste my time.

Scotty D
07-27-2008, 12:15 AM
I could give you a 5 paragraph essay on how the Lions won't make the playoffs. But I would just be retelling what every non Lions homer already knows, so I choose not to waste my time.

Do it. I'll plus rep your post three days in a row. I'd like to read it.

619
07-27-2008, 12:19 AM
Do it. I'll plus rep your post three days in a row. I'd like to read it.

I would but damn I'm much too lazy. Especially on the Lions .. nahhhh.

yo123
07-27-2008, 12:21 AM
Do it. I'll plus rep your post three days in a row. I'd like to read it.


If I cared about rep at all I might do this. Seriously though, it's just not worth it. The Packers Bears and Vikings are better teams. I have no problem with the Lions and most of their fans. They just aren't ready to challenge for a playoff spot. They have receivers. Great. The defense is still horrible, and Kitna will still throw close to 20 picks.

Brodeur
07-27-2008, 12:23 AM
For all the **** that Kitna gets, he's better than both Rex and Tarvaris, and Rodgers is a question mark.

WMD
07-27-2008, 12:24 AM
http://www.detroitlions.com/photos/Sims_Body_070731.jpg

I love Ernie Sims, but to me he hasn't been a real playmaker yet. I can't think of any "big plays" that he's made when we really needed one. Maybe I'm missing some, though.

yo123
07-27-2008, 12:25 AM
For all the **** that Kitna gets, he's better than both Rex and Tarvaris, and Rodgers is a question mark.


This is a good point, but still your defense...

Brodeur
07-27-2008, 12:28 AM
This is a good point, but still your defense...

It sucks, I know that. I expect 6-10 from this team and then MAYBE next year after another FA and draft and some development, they'll be ready to compete for a division title.

619
07-27-2008, 12:30 AM
For all the **** that Kitna gets, he's better than both Rex and Tarvaris, and Rodgers is a question mark.

Tis true. Although if we revisit this question a year from now I fully expect to see at min. two other divisional QBs surpass Mr. Kitna.

yo123
07-27-2008, 12:35 AM
Tis true. Although if we revisit this question a year from now I fully expect to see at min. two other divisional QBs surpass Mr. Kitna.


I see one at most, that being Rodgers.

619
07-27-2008, 12:42 AM
I see one at most, that being Rodgers.

The other coming from your Vikes. Jackson/ Booty ??? Very well could happen.

yo123
07-27-2008, 01:03 AM
The other coming from your Vikes. Jackson/ Booty ??? Very well could happen.



If Tarvaris Jackson is ever better than Jon Kitna I will be the happiest man on earth. I just don't see it.

yodabear
07-27-2008, 01:17 AM
Here is a reason for ya, that dipshit u had at offensive coordinator the past couple of years is gone, so u guys will actually run the damn ball and not put ur entire offense on the sholders of the before mentioned Jon Kitna.

PackerLegend
07-27-2008, 01:57 AM
Here is a reason for ya, that dipshit u had at offensive coordinator the past couple of years is gone, so u guys will actually run the damn ball and not put ur entire offense on the sholders of the before mentioned Jon Kitna.

That be a good idea except their RB's are mostly unproven but have the potential to be pretty good with Smith and Bell.

Addict
07-27-2008, 07:24 AM
That be a good idea except their RB's are mostly unproven but have the potential to be pretty good with Smith and Bell.

Absolutely. On the other hand the team is implementing some kind of Broncos-type blocking scheme (won't work as well as in denver, but still) and that system has always done well, even with unproven players.

Gay Ork Wang
07-27-2008, 08:28 AM
U mean Zoneblocking

Prowler
07-27-2008, 09:23 AM
who's your quarterback and how many offensive linemen do you have that are worth a damn? it doesn't matter what kind of receivers you got when john kitna is at qb and the offensive line consists of backus, foster, ect....

dude, foster isn't starting anymore...so obviously you have no clue

also, kitna had no control over the offense whatsoever when martz was here. he couldn't even audible and had to just run the play and take the sack or throw the pick. not exactly a good situation, this year he has the mad scientist off his back.

Addict
07-27-2008, 09:46 AM
U mean Zoneblocking

you sir, are correct.

dude, foster isn't starting anymore...so obviously you have no clue

also, kitna had no control over the offense whatsoever when martz was here. he couldn't even audible and had to just run the play and take the sack or throw the pick. not exactly a good situation, this year he has the mad scientist off his back.

easy on the Martz hate, we were all hugging his nuts last year. So don't start acting like we knew all along.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-27-2008, 10:23 AM
The Lions defintiely have a chance. They are playoff competitive at least. They were LAST YEAR. It is not CERTAIN that they make the playoffs but they defintily have a good chance as anyone in the North.

1) They can compete with anyone in the divsion,especially at home. Why do I say this? Well 3-3 last year for one. QBs of the other teams being worse than Kitna as another reason. We beat the Vikings once and SWEPT THE BEARS with a severe lack of talent last year on Defense and no running game. Why do the Vikings/Bears get better but the Lions have to stay the same? We addressed many issues as well with players Marinelli wanted.

The Bears having any semblance of offense or Tarvaris Jackson actually doing something positive is just as crazy to me as the Lions running game being effective for you. We can compete with you if we beat you already. Bearsfan can laugh all he wants, but I was sure laughing when we went to Soldier fan and finished off the sweep.

2) Addressing issues of Defense and running game. Imagine if we fix either one of those even a little bit. We at least addressed(as everyone does in the offense, fixed is always a will/see situation) the issues with lets see a healthy younger running back that fits the scheme, another vet running back that fits the scheme, a new 1st Round Right Tackle, a healthy blocking tight end(Dan Campbell and Michael Gaines) and a new philosophy of balance and zone blocking. Why does everyone assume the running game will be the same as last year with 4 major changes to the running game. Mike Martz plus lack of a blocking tight end or Right Tackle equals no running game. Mulitalo/Raiola are decent above average players, Gosder is full of potential and was a good run blocker and Backus befor Martz was a decent player as well(allowed 3 sacks total in 2005).

Defense. 6 new starters. Thats over half the defense including the entire secondary. All decent players at the very least. Given how bad the secondary was last year(Fernando Bryant as a number 1 corner are you kidding me), how could it be worse.

Bodden is not a good physical player? Brian Kelly wasn't on the 1st ranked passing D last year and knows the Tampa 2 very well? Bullocks doesn't have any promise after a decent rookie year? Gerald Alexander has a year of experience and isn't a rookie FS without a clue anymore? Dwight Smith can't compete with Alexander and provide depth? Kennoy Kennedy who is worse than Roy Williams at coverage is not gone?

With the QBs in the division, and the talent upgrade in our secondary, I think we can compete.

And as for the D-line. Marinelli made the most out of them last year. 9th in sacks with 37 sacks(30 by players not name Rogers). Redding can rush the passer just as well as Rogers, DeWayne White when healthy rushed the passer consistenly well. DeVries under Marinelli actually makes some plays(see Bears game/Cowboys game) and then we have some young talent in Alama Francis and Avril. In the games we needed Rogers(good Olines) he disappeared. Plus Darby is a better run stopper than Shaun Rogers. In 7 years with Rogers, the Lions have never cracked top 20 in rush defense. He's not strict in his gaps and he has inconsistent play. I'll take Bodden and a young DT in Fluellen in his place. Plus it works both ways. If the secondary can cover a little longer, that extra split second may be all Redding/DeWayne White need. I know when Redding had Bly, he had 8 sacks.

3) Lions at home are a tough game. Ask the 5 teams we beat, the Cowboys and the Giants. 2006 we lost at home on the last play to the NFC Champ Bears on a Mike Williamd drop. 2005 we lost at home to the division champ Bears in OT. We can compete with anyone at home.

4) Perception. Yes Millen is the GM. But these are Marinellis players, at least on D for sure(how many Tampa players and how many Millen players cut this offseason Bryant/Bailey/Rogers/Kennedy/Kalimba).

bearsfan_51
07-27-2008, 12:51 PM
Bears fans could care less that the Lions swept us. We aren't rivals. ****** teams like the Lions don't get to have rivalries. I don't think the Bears are a playoff team, most Bears fans don't, although they are certainly better than the Lions. That's the difference. I don't need to tell everyone my ****** team is good when it's not.

Also, as to provide an argument you could start with the simple question of talent. How many Lions players are top 10 at their position? I would say zero. You could only remotely make an argument for two. That alone is a pretty good reason why you aren't going anywhere. Your quarterback sucks, your line sucks, you can't get to the quarterback, you've got a bunch of scrubs in your secondary, and you've yet to prove you can run the ball. This is a playoff team why?

As for Tactica's well thought out argument, it's essentially saying that adding a bunch of role players will make them competitive, it won't. You need talent too, and the Lions have very little of it. Like I said before, doing things right doesn't mean the same thing as doing things well. You need a new GM and head coach.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-27-2008, 07:00 PM
Bears fans could care less that the Lions swept us. We aren't rivals. ****** teams like the Lions don't get to have rivalries. I don't think the Bears are a playoff team, most Bears fans don't, although they are certainly better than the Lions. That's the difference. I don't need to tell everyone my ****** team is good when it's not.

Look the Lions have been bad in the past. But that has no bearing on the future. I don't care if were not rivals. I'm just saying if we can beat the Bears twice and the Vikings with a total lack of talent(according to everyone) then we can be competive again in the divsion (either with a lack of talent we still beat 6 teams or we actually do have some talent that nobody recognizes), Division games are the most important. Why wouldn't you care if you lost two division games. If you win those games, you might make the playoffs. I don't care if you don't respect the Lions but they are a playoff competive team because they WERE last year at 7-9. The Bears with their defense makes them playoff competive too. The NFC is wide open especially for wild card teams and the North as a division is not as strong as it was last year with Favre gone. Nobody is saying the Lions are a sure playoff team/divison champ here but they have a good chance to make the playoffs and are going in the right direction

Also, as to provide an argument you could start with the simple question of talent. How many Lions players are top 10 at their position? I would say zero. You could only remotely make an argument for two. That alone is a pretty good reason why you aren't going anywhere. Your quarterback sucks, your line sucks, you can't get to the quarterback, you've got a bunch of scrubs in your secondary, and you've yet to prove you can run the ball. This is a playoff team why?

. Roy/Calvin/Sims/Redding/DeWayne White/Bodden/Raiola/Mulitalo/Darby(starter on 2 Super Bowl teams) have enough talent to compete with anyone in the NFC. Plus many young players that certainly can contribute and do have potential to really help this team. The Dline was very effective last year at times (and have a great coach to help them) and EVERYONE knows Martz kills O-lines. A new Right Tackle, a new philsophy on balance/zone blocking, a new running back and a blocking tight end might be able to help. Its not like we just assumed they would get better and not address the issue by not doing anything. Who would do that(cough Lovie/Angelo with Grossman,cough).We did 4 things as I have listed for the running game. The issue was addressed. To say the Lions running game is crap for the 2008 is an unknown with so many changes. The same can be said for the entire secondary. The secondary full of scrubs? Bodden is a scrub? Kelly is a terrible player? Bullocks and Alexander are not young and talented? LAST YEAR they were full of scrubs and yet still 7-9 and this year is an unknown but Bodden/Kelly have had success in the past and Bullocks/Alexander are young and have potential.

As for Tactica's well thought out argument, it's essentially saying that adding a bunch of role players will make them competitive, it won't. You need talent too, and the Lions have very little of it. Like I said before, doing things right doesn't mean the same thing as doing things well. You need a new GM and head coach.

Look we added talent(Bodden/Darby far from not talented) and much needed role players(depth at FS with Dwight Smith, blocking Tight End, young running back and Right Tackle in the draft). Plus players that fit the scheme on D and O. And Marinelli is a terrible coach all of a sudden? He is a great motivator and good teacher. Everyone focues on Millens past and just assumes failure. This is Marinellis team with all Marinellis players.

WMD
07-27-2008, 07:05 PM
Also, as to provide an argument you could start with the simple question of talent. How many Lions players are top 10 at their position? I would say zero. You could only remotely make an argument for two. That alone is a pretty good reason why you aren't going anywhere.

Pardon me.. Don Muhlbach is easily a Top 3 Long Snapper in the NFL.

Gay Ork Wang
07-27-2008, 07:21 PM
Ethan Albright, Patrick Mannely and Lonnie Paxton >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don Muhlbach!

Brodeur
07-27-2008, 07:24 PM
Pardon me.. Don Muhlbach is easily a Top 3 Long Snapper in the NFL.

I will never forgive him for that Vikings game I was at. Never.

bearsfan_51
07-27-2008, 07:27 PM
All of a sudden? When was Rod Marinelli ever a good coach? What has he ever won as a head coach or even a coordinator? I guess you could say he needs more talent to compete, I'll give him that, but I don't think it's too out of line to suggest that he's part of the problem by bringing in a bunch of Tampa rejects and expecting to compete.

Roy/Calvin/Sims/Redding/DeWayne White/Bodden/Raiola/Mulitalo/Darby(starter on 2 Super Bowl teams) have enough talent to compete with anyone in the NFC.

Compete in one game? Sure. Compete over the course of the season? We shall see.

I asked who was in the top 10 at their position. I'd consider Sims and Roy the only ones that even register. Guys like Dewayne White and Ed Mulitalo don't even come close.

WMD
07-27-2008, 07:49 PM
I must agree with BF51. Marinelli hasn't shown to be anything special, to me.

Brodeur
07-27-2008, 08:26 PM
I asked who was in the top 10 at their position. I'd consider Sims and Roy the only ones that even register. Guys like Dewayne White and Ed Mulitalo don't even come close.

Raiola is absolutely a top 10 center.

Cunningham
07-27-2008, 08:30 PM
dude, foster isn't starting anymore...so obviously you have no clue
the only starting spot not settled is at the rt position where foster is competing for the job with cherilus. the projected starters for the rest of the line are backus, mulitalo, raiola, and peterman. easily one of the worst lines in the league.

also, kitna had no control over the offense whatsoever when martz was here. he couldn't even audible and had to just run the play and take the sack or throw the pick. not exactly a good situation, this year he has the mad scientist off his back.
no control? kitna was the ******* quarterback!! i'm pretty sure he had some influence. but you're missing my point and that's that kitna is simply not good and the lion's offensive line will only hurt his cause.

bearsfan_51
07-27-2008, 08:31 PM
It's pretty hard to argue about centers, since usually the same ones go to the pro bowl every year. Sportingnews recently listed their top 5 centers:

1) Matt Birk
2) Olin Kruetz
3) Ben Hamilton
4) Brad Meester
5) Andre Gurode

Along with Nick Mangold as the top young player.

Perhaps Raiola falls into the next 4, I won't pretend to know enough about centers to argue otherwise, although I've heard a lot of criticism against him from Lions fans.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-27-2008, 08:36 PM
All of a sudden? When was Rod Marinelli ever a good coach? What has he ever won as a head coach or even a coordinator? I guess you could say he needs more talent to compete, I'll give him that, but I don't think it's too out of line to suggest that he's part of the problem by bringing in a bunch of Tampa rejects and expecting to compete.



Compete in one game? Sure. Compete over the course of the season? We shall see.

I asked who was in the top 10 at their position. I'd consider Sims and Roy the only ones that even register. Guys like Dewayne White and Ed Mulitalo don't even come close.

They are not top 10 but they do have talent for sure and helped this team win 7 games. We have enough talent for the NFC. And yes they can compete over a whole season. They did it last season with less talent against tougher opponents(NFC East, Packers with Favre,San Diego). With the NFC the way it is, the Lions can surely compete against the Bears,Vikings,Packers(Favreless),Saints(at Ford Field),Falcons,Panthers,Bucs,49ers and Redskins(at Ford Field). All teams with various flaws as well.

Marinelli has never had his guys. Last year he had Millens guys on that defense and made the team competive with a great first half start. That alone attributes to his coaching. Plus everyone who he has ever coached loves the guy. How can you not like his philosophy. This year I can honestly say he has his guys based on the purge of Millen that was this offseason(Kennedy,Bryant,Rogers,Bailey,Woody,Kevin Jones,Martz). He has the one Millen guy he likes(Corey Redding) his guys from Tampa(White who is above average when healthy,Brian Kelly decent number 2 corner,Dwight Smith and Darby(better run stuffer than Rogers), young drafted players not being rookies anymore(Sims,Bullocks,Alexander,Alama Francis) plus Leigh Bodden/Lenon and the coaches/philosophies he wants.

TacticaLion
07-27-2008, 10:05 PM
no control? Kitna was the ******* quarterback!! I'm pretty sure he had some influence. But you're missing my point and that's that kitna is simply not good and the lion's offensive line will only hurt his cause.No, Kitna didn't have control. The QB doesn't have control in a Mike Martz' offense. Martz calls the play and the play Martz calls is the play that's ran. The only decisions Kitna had were to either throw the ball into double coverage (because teams knew we were going to pass) or to take a sack. He did both very well for Martz.

The Lions went 7-9 last year, improved their team and are destined to fail this year? Why? The past? Kitna at QB? Backus at LT? Millen as the GM? Ford's ****** cars? These are the arguments for why the Lions will undoubtedly fail? Nice.

Here's what I see from last year: horrible offensive inconsistency and a terrible secondary. Here's what I see this year: a balanced offensive game plan and 3 key players added to the defense (Kelly, Bodden and Smith). Kitna isn't as bad as many claim he is and our line isn't as bad as the stats would indicate.

If ONE player on the Lions' defense has a surprising year (be it IAF, Avril, Bullocks, Redding or Dizon), the Lions defense could actually make an impact this year. And, if they actually stay dedicated to the run, the offense might move the ball. Another offensive change this year? Quick passes and short drops. The more the ball is in Roy or CJ's hands and not in Kitna's, the better.

There are few teams not in the playoff hunt in the NFC, and it's not unreasonable to suggest an improving 7-9 team could get a streak going and grab a spot. Predicting 8-8 isn't unreasonable and thinking that the team could be in the hunt isn't a homerish perspective.

That all being said, I'd like the Vikings, Packers and Bears' fans to throw their team's predictions down in this thread. I've said 8-8 for the Lions, lets hear the rest. Lets see how impossible it is for a team in the NFL to emerge (Chicago Bears - 5-11 in 2004, 11-5 in 2005) and decline (Chicago Bears - 13-3 in 2006, 7-9 in 2007). It never happens, right?

We'll see come week 17.

bearsfan_51
07-27-2008, 10:46 PM
You also predicted the Lions would make the playoffs last year. Inevitably you're going to be correct.

I think the Lions will finish 4-12. I think the Bears will finish 6-10.

TacticaLion
07-27-2008, 11:31 PM
You also predicted the Lions would make the playoffs last year. Inevitably you're going to be correct.

I think the Lions will finish 4-12. I think the Bears will finish 6-10.Yeah, like you've never made a prediction that proved to be incorrect.

I don't quite remember predicting that the Lions would make the playoffs. Regardless, I don't think you thought they'd win 7 games. I remember you saying that they wouldn't sweep the Bears, and that happened. Most people make preseason statements, and most preseason statements are wrong.

You've got the Lions finishing 4-12. Got it. We'll see.

Prowler
07-28-2008, 08:00 PM
for the record i've always hated martz because he looks like my district manager

Brothgar
07-28-2008, 08:29 PM
I'm not going to be a Debbie downer but I had the Lions with 9 wins and a playoff berth last season and I believe that we have really improved this offseason (Imagine if we had gotten Dummervil like I wanted AHHH!!)

anyway I can't see them doing better than 8-8 and that would be a stretch

Sunday, September 7 at Atlanta Falcons Georgia Dome 1:00 p.m. FOX
Sunday, September 14 GREEN BAY PACKERS Ford Field 1:00 p.m. FOX
Sunday, September 21 at San Francisco 49ers Monster Park 4:05 p.m. FOX
Sunday, September 28 *** BYE WEEK ***
Sunday, October 5 CHICAGO BEARS Ford Field 1:00 p.m. FOX
Sunday, October 12 at Minnesota Vikings The Metrodome 1:00 p.m. FOX
Sunday, October 19 at Houston Texans Reliant Stadium 4:05 p.m. FOX
Sunday, October 26 WASHINGTON REDSKINS Ford Field 1:00 p.m. FOX
Sunday, November 2 at Chicago Bears Soldier Field 1:00 p.m. FOX
Sunday, November 9 JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS Ford Field 1:00 p.m. CBS
Sunday, November 16 at Carolina Panthers Bank of America Stadium 1:00 p.m.* FOX
Sunday, November 23 TAMPA BAY BUCCANEERS Ford Field 1:00 p.m.* FOX
Thursday, November 27 TENNESSEE TITANS Ford Field 12:30 p.m. CBS#
Sunday, December 7 MINNESOTA VIKINGS Ford Field 1:00 p.m.* FOX
Sunday, December 14 at Indianapolis Colts Lucas Oil Stadium 1:00 p.m.* FOX
Sunday, December 21 NEW ORLEANS SAINTS Ford Field 1:00 p.m.* FOX
Sunday, December 28 at Green Bay Packers Lambeau Field 1:00 p.m.*


Where are the wins here?

I'm pretty sure the season will start very similarly to last season a bunch of wins in the start I could even see the team going 4-0 real easy I can't really see more than 3-4 more wins on that schedual baring any major injury. I feel we will be a top 10 pick this season not because the team isn't good or better but just because the schedual is just so hard out of division this season.

For the record I see the first 4 games as probobal wins then Carolina, Tampa. And we have chances at Houston, NO, the second game at Chicago, Tenn., The home Minni game, and depending on the development of Aaron Rogers the second GB

I know it is a meaningless stat but we are 2-6 in our Thanksgiving games since the year 2000.

GB12
07-28-2008, 08:38 PM
Where are the wins here?

I'm pretty sure the season will start very similarly to last season a bunch of wins in the start I could even see the team going 4-0 real easy I can't really see more than 3-4 more wins on that schedual baring any major injury. I feel we will be a top 10 pick this season not because the team isn't good or better but just because the schedual is just so hard out of division this season.

For the record I see the first 4 games as probobal wins then Carolina, Tampa. And we have chances at Houston, NO, the second game at Chicago, Tenn., The home Minni game, and depending on the development of Aaron Rogers the second GB
Obviously I'm a Packer fan so I'm biased, but I don't see how you can possibly call that game a probabal win for the Lions. Even without Favre we still have a much better team than Detroit. Possible win? Maybe. Probabal win? Definitely not.

I'd put them down for 4 wins with 6 being a possibility.

Brothgar
07-28-2008, 08:49 PM
Obviously I'm a Packer fan so I'm biased, but I don't see how you can possibly call that game a probabal win for the Lions. Even without Favre we still have a much better team than Detroit. Possible win? Maybe. Probabal win? Definitely not.

I'd put them down for 4 wins with 6 being a possibility.

I'm basing this on a few factors.

1. We have been playing alot better at home than on the road.
2. It will be Rogers second start in a real NFL game.
3. I think your running back by commitee is slightly overrated (I know the pack fans are going to grind the axe on me for that one)
4. It is going to be a new look from last year a very new look. Game film of the offense is very valuable knowing what is coming from a system. Yeah every system gets tweeked from game to game but I really think that the cange will catch the first couple of teams by surprise.
5. I am biased about this but I don't believe that the Packers are THAT much better than the Lions anymore.
6. The week 1 Packers vs Vikings game is going to be a real battle. This is fully speculation mind you but I tend to think that there is a lul after early big games.

GB12
07-28-2008, 09:27 PM
I'm basing this on a few factors.

1. We have been playing alot better at home than on the road.
2. It will be Rogers second start in a real NFL game.
3. I think your running back by commitee is slightly overrated (I know the pack fans are going to grind the axe on me for that one)
4. It is going to be a new look from last year a very new look. Game film of the offense is very valuable knowing what is coming from a system. Yeah every system gets tweeked from game to game but I really think that the cange will catch the first couple of teams by surprise.
5. I am biased about this but I don't believe that the Packers are THAT much better than the Lions anymore.
6. The week 1 Packers vs Vikings game is going to be a real battle. This is fully speculation mind you but I tend to think that there is a lul after early big games.
1. We play extremely well on the road
2. Not that big of a deal
3. It's not a running back by commitee since Grant broke out. Against the Lions poor run defense we shouldn't have much of a problem getting a ground game going. Ryan Grant ran for 7.5 yards per carry last year against the Lions.
4. Don't know where you're going with that
5. Yes, they are. We match up better in every aspect of the game, and have better players at almost every postion. The only position the Lions have a case for is QB and WR. WR is so close I think it has to be called a wash. The only thing Kitna has on Rodgers is experiece, I think by the end of the year Rodgers will be better, but fine for now I'll give you QB. The Packers have a better secondary, defensive line, linebackers, offensive line, running backs, and tight ends.
6. I don't think the week before is going to affect us. There's 6 days in between to get ready for the next game. It's not like baseball where if you tire out your bullpen it's going to hurt you because there's a game the next day. Unless there's an injury that game I don't think much of that.

Geo
07-28-2008, 09:34 PM
I think Grant will continue to run well against the Lions, broth, even without Favre. Most of the match-ups are in Green Bay's favor, the Packers are an athletic offense and the Lions defense is being rebuilt on speed. Grant won't be touched until at least 5 yards past the line of scrimmage, it's just the way it is.

Packers multiple receiver sets takes advantage of the Lions secondary. Detroit going away from multiple receiver sets helps the Packers, not having their secondary depth attacked and the Packers not having a better speed rusher than veteran KGB.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-28-2008, 09:51 PM
1. We play extremely well on the road
2. Not that big of a deal
3. It's not a running back by commitee since Grant broke out. Against the Lions poor run defense we shouldn't have much of a problem getting a ground game going. Ryan Grant ran for 7.5 yards per carry last year against the Lions.
4. Don't know where you're going with that
5. Yes, they are. We match up better in every aspect of the game, and have better players at almost every postion. The only position the Lions have a case for is QB and WR. WR is so close I think it has to be called a wash. The only thing Kitna has on Rodgers is experiece, I think by the end of the year Rodgers will be better, but fine for now I'll give you QB. The Packers have a better secondary, defensive line, linebackers, offensive line, running backs, and tight ends.
6. I don't think the week before is going to affect us. There's 6 days in between to get ready for the next game. It's not like baseball where if you tire out your bullpen it's going to hurt you because there's a game the next day. Unless there's an injury that game I don't think much of that.

1. Packers are a good road team but the Lions at home can compete with anyone recently. Especially a Favreless Packer team, I was excited to see the Pack on the schedule so early before Rodgers gets settled into the position. Lions also play very well in home openers(usually their best game of the year defensively for some reason, 2005 3 points vs Packers, 2006 9 points, 2007 17 points but 7 off a offensive fumble by O'Sullivan and Adrian Peterson held to 66 yards rushing, 2004 win vs Houston, 2003 win vs Arizona despite some awful Lions teams in the past. You will get a good effort)
2. First division road start will be a big deal. Especially if you lose to the Vikings. So much pressure will be on Aaron Rodgers if the Vikings win to not start 0-2 replacing Favre. Man that would be a disaster.
3. I agree its not by committee. Grant better get into camp though and get into football shape. Run D will be better WITHOUT Shaun Rogers. I know that sounds ludicrous but the guy is not strict in his gaps and he's inconsistent. In 7 years, we never cracked the top 20 in rushing D with Rogers. Darby lacks severley in pass rush compared to Rogers, but he's a better run stuffer. Darby has started and been succesful on 2 Super Bowl teams. He will help us. Plus the fear of Favre passing will be gone. Can focus on the run until Rodgers proves he can beat us.
4. Don't know where he's going with that either. No tapes on our defense I guess. We have 6 new starters out of 11 on D. Not the same defense as last year, especially the secondary. Actual NFL caliber players in Bodden/Kelly/Bullocks/second year Alexander back instead of Bryant/Wilson/Keith Smith/Kennoy Kennedy/rookie Alexander.
5. Your team does have talent, but the Lions have enough talent to win at home IMO. And the Packers are not without issues. Johnny Jolly issue, Grant holdout, Rodgers actual impact compared to Favre, Harell stepping in to provide inside pressure for Corey Williams. Plus again new defense for Detroit and shift in philsophy on offense especially for the offensive line without Martz 7 step/pass happy killfests for Kitna. Kampman and KGB won't be teeing off and rushing the passer every play. This O-line had success running early on Thanksgiving with this Oline without a Right Tackle in Cherilus or a quality blocking tight end until Martz abandoned it. Especially if Jolly's out, I like our chances being balanced.
6. Short week won't hurt that early in the season you are correct unless you lose to the Vikes. Then the pressures on Rodgers. Going 0-2 in the division wouldn't be good.

bearsfan_51
07-28-2008, 09:53 PM
There's a big difference between "can compete" and "will win". When you're predicting you're saying what you think will happen, not what you think can happen. The Lions could win every game they play next year, Natalie Portman could also decide that I'm the man of her dreams. Unfortunately for the both of us I don't think those things are going to happen.

WMD
07-28-2008, 09:54 PM
Week 1: @ Atlanta Falcons
Week 2: Green Bay Packers
Week 3: @ San Francisco 49ers
Week 4: **BYE**
Week 5: Chicago Bears
Week 6: @ Minnesota Vikings
Week 7: @ Houston Texans
Week 8: Washington Redskins
Week 9: @ Chicago Bears
Week 10: Jacksonville Jaguars
Week 11: @ Carolina Panthers
Week 12: Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Week 13: Tennessee Titans
Week 14: Minnesota Vikings
Week 15: @ Indianapolis Colts
Week 16: New Orleans Saints
Week 17: @ Green Bay Packers

Pretty much every team we go against has an above average defense. I could actually see us starting 0-12 before we go against the Titans.. and even then, Albert Haynesworth will eat Jon Kitna alive and have his lifetime supply of Bibles for dessert.

We'll see what happens, but my expectations for the season are real, real low and I'd be surprised if we don't have a Top 5 pick in the 2009 Draft.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-28-2008, 10:30 PM
There's a big difference between "can compete" and "will win". When you're predicting you're saying what you think will happen, not what you think can happen. The Lions could win every game they play next year, Natalie Portman could also decide that I'm the man of her dreams. Unfortunately for the both of us I don't think those things are going to happen.

Can compete means they have a shot at winning because I think it will be close. At least 50-50 or more in some cases. Nothing is 100% certain for any team really so I never say will win, especially in July. And I think the Lions can compete in 13 games this year with the exception of at Indy,at Green Bay, at Minni. I don't think they'll win 13 obviously but they have a shot in 13 games based on location of the game, matchups etc. The W-L can't be predicted exactly so to say will win is a guess and kind of degrading to the other team, no matter who you are talking about. For example the Lions have a strong chance in 3 out of the following five games IMO at Houston,at Carolina,at Atlanta,at San Fran, at Chicago. Which ones they win, I don't know. There are a ton of close games in the NFL. The Lions were a play away from beating the Cowboys and the Giants last year.

And if we went by should win or will win, the opponents of the Lions always have the Lions down as a will win. And yet they are not always 0-16. Last year they beat 6 teams for 7 wins.

There are very few will win games for anyone. Most said the Pats will win but the Giant can compete with them. The Giants had a chance to compete and won the game.

GB12
07-28-2008, 10:33 PM
Can compete means they have a shot at winning because I think it will be close. At least 50-50 or more in some cases.
If that's how you define it I think the Lions can compete in two games this year.

Brothgar
07-28-2008, 11:16 PM
1. We play extremely well on the road
2. Not that big of a deal
3. It's not a running back by commitee since Grant broke out. Against the Lions poor run defense we shouldn't have much of a problem getting a ground game going. Ryan Grant ran for 7.5 yards per carry last year against the Lions.
4. Don't know where you're going with that
5. Yes, they are. We match up better in every aspect of the game, and have better players at almost every postion. The only position the Lions have a case for is QB and WR. WR is so close I think it has to be called a wash. The only thing Kitna has on Rodgers is experiece, I think by the end of the year Rodgers will be better, but fine for now I'll give you QB. The Packers have a better secondary, defensive line, linebackers, offensive line, running backs, and tight ends.
6. I don't think the week before is going to affect us. There's 6 days in between to get ready for the next game. It's not like baseball where if you tire out your bullpen it's going to hurt you because there's a game the next day. Unless there's an injury that game I don't think much of that.


1. Yeah but you don't play as well at home as you do away where as the Lions plkay a million times better than they do on the road.

2. I think it is. How many QBs do very well in their 2nd start? Peyton Manning didn't, Tony Romo (He did ok but he has less than 200 yards passing) Didn't, Eli didn't, Ben did but that was more a reliance on his running game .

3. I stand corrected on the RB by comittee because I'm in Philly I don't get to get much media to watch or listen to GB games.

4. What I am trying to say is that as I see it (I could be wrong I'm not 100% sure about how coaches prepare for games) But I assume that they look at more than 1 week of tape even if it dates back to last season. Which should give a slight edge to the lions because the packers will only have 1 week of tape of us in the new system.

5. If you can call the WR situation a wash I could make a case for your WRs being equal I could make a case for the CB corps. you scoff already but Woodson and Harris are both 31 and 33 years old respectivly when you reach that age you start to lose a step. Hell Ty Law was not the same CB he use to be when he was 33 and he is concidered agreat CB. Leigh Bodden had an off year last year due to some nagging injury issues. but the year before he was considered to be an up and coming corner.

6. That is a debatable concept I have no real data to back up my theroy (not that I've done much research on the topic) but I wouldn't be surorused if I were wrong on the subject.

GB12
07-28-2008, 11:58 PM
1. Yeah but you don't play as well at home as you do away where as the Lions plkay a million times better than they do on the road.

2. I think it is. How many QBs do very well in their 2nd start? Peyton Manning didn't, Tony Romo (He did ok but he has less than 200 yards passing) Didn't, Eli didn't, Ben did but that was more a reliance on his running game .

3. I stand corrected on the RB by comittee because I'm in Philly I don't get to get much media to watch or listen to GB games.

4. What I am trying to say is that as I see it (I could be wrong I'm not 100% sure about how coaches prepare for games) But I assume that they look at more than 1 week of tape even if it dates back to last season. Which should give a slight edge to the lions because the packers will only have 1 week of tape of us in the new system.

5. If you can call the WR situation a wash I could make a case for your WRs being equal I could make a case for the CB corps. you scoff already but Woodson and Harris are both 31 and 33 years old respectivly when you reach that age you start to lose a step. Hell Ty Law was not the same CB he use to be when he was 33 and he is concidered agreat CB. Leigh Bodden had an off year last year due to some nagging injury issues. but the year before he was considered to be an up and coming corner.

6. That is a debatable concept I have no real data to back up my theroy (not that I've done much research on the topic) but I wouldn't be surorused if I were wrong on the subject.
1. Main point being the Packers on the road are still better than the Lions at home

2. Peyton Manning had an awful team around him. He was picked first overall by the Colts because they were the worst team in the league. I don't know where you got your numbers from because I see that Romo had a great second start. 284 yards, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 109 QB rating. Eli's the same thing as Peyton, the Giants were the 4th worst team in the NFL when they got him. Aaron Rodgers on the other hand has a very good team around him. He has WRs that can make things happen on their own. They were first in yards after the catch last year. Not sure why you picked to use that argument because it sure didn't work for you

3. I find it strange that someone on this forum wouldn't know that, but whatever

4. First of all aren't the Lions still running a Tampa 2? Second of all if you did change the system I don't really care as it's not as big of a deal as you think. In fact it would probably have more of an affect on the defense than on us. See last year's Giants adjustment time to changes in defensive schemes.

5. Absolutely not. Al Harris>>>>>>>Bodden, Charles Woodson>>>>>>>whatever scrub you're throwing out on the other side. Sure they're getting older, but Charles Woodson was one of the best corners in the NFL last year and Harris was still damn good with the exception of the NFC championship and Dallas game. Both are way ahead of what the Lions have.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-29-2008, 12:10 PM
If that's how you define it I think the Lions can compete in two games this year.

Seriously. Wow just wow especially after 3-3 in the division last year and the loss of Favre. Atlanta,San Fran, Houston, Carolina, Chicago on the road sure are juggernauts too. No flaws on those teams either. Unbeatable teams we should just pack it in now. We might as well play New England 16 times because it'll be the same result. No chance we win ANY HOME games with Washington,New Orleans,Tennessee,Jacksonville,Tampa. Especially Tampa, I can't believe we beat them last year, we have no chance this year, you're right.

I'll enjoy playing Aaron Rodgers with our new secondary in Week 2 is all I'm going to say. Continue to take Favre for granted. I'm sure you'll blow us out with Rodgers because he'll be that good right away. Reading defenses with little game experience, same chemistry as Favre had, calling audibles. Instant results in Green Bay in a position that is so easy to find just ask anyone in the North.

End of sarcasm.

GB12
07-29-2008, 12:20 PM
Seriously. Wow just wow especially after 3-3 in the division last year and the loss of Favre. Atlanta,San Fran, Houston, Carolina, Chicago on the road sure are juggernauts too. No flaws on those teams either. Unbeatable teams we should just pack it in now. We might as well play New England 16 times because it'll be the same result. No chance we win ANY HOME games with Washington,New Orleans,Tennessee,Jacksonville,Tampa. Especially Tampa, I can't believe we beat them last year, we have no chance this year, you're right.

I'll enjoy playing Aaron Rodgers with our new secondary in Week 2 is all I'm going to say. Continue to take Favre for granted. I'm sure you'll blow us out with Rodgers because he'll be that good right away. Reading defenses with little game experience, same chemistry as Favre had, calling audibles. Instant results in Green Bay in a position that is so easy to find just ask anyone in the North.

End of sarcasm.
Do you really have that hard of a time following? You said
Can compete means they have a shot at winning because I think it will be close. At least 50-50 or more in some cases.

I see only 2 games on that schedule that the Lions have greater than a 50% chance of winning. I did not say they will only win two games, although I think it's more likely to go 2-14 than make the playoffs.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-29-2008, 01:33 PM
I see only 2 games on that schedule that the Lions have greater than a 50% chance of winning. I did not say they will only win two games, although I think it's more likely to go 2-14 than make the playoffs.
__________________

Let me try to explain. 50/50 just means its CLOSE IMO. I'm not talking about specific percentages or anything.

Any close game (competing) means its it will come to down to a few executed plays by either side. Whoever, executes those plays will win(meaning both sides have a good shot 50/50 to execute those plays). Sometimes you will win them sometimes you'll lose them. For instance, Paris Lenon recovering a fumble to beat the Cowboys last year instead of booting the football. I said we could compete(50/50) with Cowboys at home last year which we did and based on how we matchup with them(strength WR vs weakness their secondary). I said we couldn't compete with the Packers last year because of Brett Favre being able to torch our secondary(which he did).

Saying its not 50/50 or close means you think one team is clearly better than the other and your saying 14 teams are clearly better than the Lions if I understand this correctly. So 14 times the Lions lack in talent.

Not that the Lions will lose 14 times because they may pull out some games( I understand this). Talent level in the NFL is really closer than you think it is. Especially on the O and D-lines. Alot depends on the coaches, scheme, QB etc. For example, Tony Ugoh. He's no better talent wise than Backus. But thats a good LT because of Peyton, the scheme and coaching. Backus was a decent LT before Martz.

Nobody could really say, this team has a 40 % chance of winning or a 37% chance of winning.

Its either a blow out win.

Close 50/50. Winning a close game could go either way in the NFL. There should be no, we will win but I think it'll be close. That just means its close.

Blow out Loss.


Which 2 games do you think its at least 50/50 talent wise by the way.

Gay Ork Wang
07-29-2008, 01:58 PM
prolly falcons and 49ers

BcLion
07-29-2008, 03:41 PM
The Real Truth with the Lions is we dont know what we got.
We changed offensive styles to a supposed more balanced run to throw ratio.
We also plan on giving Kitna more decision making and added some bootlegs. We dont know if Kitna is going to be better or worse because Martz never let him decide anything.

We got a rookie that challanged barry sanders collegiate record and ran in same zone blocking scheme we are now using. We also have Bell that ran it in Denver. But we do not know if the Oline will be up to the task. Are the players made for this system? Are they going to take some time to learn it? How long until our shiny new first round pick can beat out false start foster for the starting gig?

We hear great things outa camp about our new FB Felton but is he going to be able to absorb enough of the playbook to not look like a rookie for half the season. We picked up TE Gaines and we are supposed to get Campbell back but he is on the pup right now and we dont know if he has recoverd from the elbow injury or will be the same player he used to be.

WE also dont know how the Defense will adjust to as many as 6 new starters. We picked up veteran Kelly from tampa but is he on downside of his career and will he be a wash for fernando or a upgrade? We also picked up Dwight Smith for a safety and he is also a ? mark on if he really is an upgrade. We traded for Bodden who everyone is hyping ,to include Chad Johnson with his comments about Bodden the only corner who can cover him. But he is knew to the Tampa 2 how long will it take him to learn it and how good at it will he be.

We also wil see changes in the LB core this year is Dizon going to be able to beat out Lenon for the starting MLB spot? All reports up to now say no.
So we got alex lewis starting SSlb and Sims on weak. WE also have changes in the Dline. Darby is only expected for 20 plays a game and Cody is supposed to fill the gap and step up to the task. He hasnt stepped up to being a backup to this point in his career. Tho I wil admit reports are saying he shows progress this year. We got rid of Kalimba and have IAF and Devries fighting it out for left DE and Avril is looking like a specialist 3rd down DE to this point. Will these be upgrades or not? We dont know.

The real Truth about the Lions is Noone really knows what they got yet. We will find out the Truth come gameday sunday sept 7th. And We will know for sure who they are by sunday dec 28th on the cold tundra of Lambeau field.

I kind of like not going into the season with alot of hype following us or expectations that will lead to disapointment.

Bclion

Maybe Next Year Millen2
07-29-2008, 04:16 PM
The Real Truth with the Lions is we dont know what we got.
We changed offensive styles to a supposed more balanced run to throw ratio.
We also plan on giving Kitna more decision making and added some bootlegs. We dont know if Kitna is going to be better or worse because Martz never let him decide anything.

We got a rookie that challanged barry sanders collegiate record and ran in same zone blocking scheme we are now using. We also have Bell that ran it in Denver. But we do not know if the Oline will be up to the task. Are the players made for this system? Are they going to take some time to learn it? How long until our shiny new first round pick can beat out false start foster for the starting gig?

We hear great things outa camp about our new FB Felton but is he going to be able to absorb enough of the playbook to not look like a rookie for half the season. We picked up TE Gaines and we are supposed to get Campbell back but he is on the pup right now and we dont know if he has recoverd from the elbow injury or will be the same player he used to be.

WE also dont know how the Defense will adjust to as many as 6 new starters. We picked up veteran Kelly from tampa but is he on downside of his career and will he be a wash for fernando or a upgrade? We also picked up Dwight Smith for a safety and he is also a ? mark on if he really is an upgrade. We traded for Bodden who everyone is hyping ,to include Chad Johnson with his comments about Bodden the only corner who can cover him. But he is knew to the Tampa 2 how long will it take him to learn it and how good at it will he be.

We also wil see changes in the LB core this year is Dizon going to be able to beat out Lenon for the starting MLB spot? All reports up to now say no.
So we got alex lewis starting SSlb and Sims on weak. WE also have changes in the Dline. Darby is only expected for 20 plays a game and Cody is supposed to fill the gap and step up to the task. He hasnt stepped up to being a backup to this point in his career. Tho I wil admit reports are saying he shows progress this year. We got rid of Kalimba and have IAF and Devries fighting it out for left DE and Avril is looking like a specialist 3rd down DE to this point. Will these be upgrades or not? We dont know.

The real Truth about the Lions is Noone really knows what they got yet. We will find out the Truth come gameday sunday sept 7th. And We will know for sure who they are by sunday dec 28th on the cold tundra of Lambeau field.

I kind of like not going into the season with alot of hype following us or expectations that will lead to disapointment.

Bclion

Tons of truth to that. But I know this team can compete with anyone at home(because a less talented Lion team did it last year) and most teams we play have their flaws too. Did Minni,Chicago address their QB situation. No but we addressed our secondary. And the Packers QB went from awesome to an unknown. We're not the only team with flaws. We have addressed our weak points that is 100% certain instead of just taking another receiver(doesn't mean they are fixed). Determining if they are fixed is a wait for the season type thing.

Running game. We averaged 4.0 yards per carry last yeaR (19th in league). We just need more attempts because with Martz we were severlely lagging in attempts. 100 more carries would be a more balanced number and giving at least 400 more rushing yards if nothing changed from last year. Getting our average per carry up is the tricky part. Helping this will be either Gosder Cherilus who is a good run blocker and a blocking tight end in Campbell or Michael Gaines. The Lions had no run blocking tight end last year when Campbell got hurt plus Martz doesn't really use one enough. Tough to block 7 people with only 6 guys. Imagine if your team didn't have a solid blocking tight end. Could you run the ball? Campbell should be back within a week in the report I read plus we have Michael Gaines. Imagine a two tight end set?

On the secondary

If you are picking between Bodden or Fernando Bryant. Who would you pick?

You are picking between Brian Kelly and either Stanley Wilson or Keith Smith. Who ya got.

Dwight Smith or Kennoy Kennedy. Can Kennedy cover anyone?

Alexander rookie or Alexander year 2 or Bullocks.

Darby or Rogers in terms of run stuffing. Darby has been succesful on 2 Super Bowl teams in run defense. He will only play run downs leaving a young DT to rush the passer along with Redding on 3rd down. Rogers has never in 7 years been on a top 20 rush team. Not with Dan Wilkinson,Cody,Redding etc. Inconsistency in his run blocking crushes us more than inconsitency in his pass rush.

Its time for a change there. And as far as pass rush, Rogers never had as good of a year as Redding did in 2006 in sacks. 8 sacks was never topped by Rogers like Redding had. Redding only had 1 last year but played very well against the run especially compared to Rogers. It was pretty much like Rogers was playing under tackle even though he was the nose and Redding was playing nose tackle even though he was the under tackle. And even then Redding was in the backfield more than Rogers last year and more consistently. I'm talking pressures and QB hits. Rogers was just able to finish off a few more sacks.

Redding has the capability to get back to 8. Especially when Redding got 8 WITHOUT SHAUN ROGERS and with an actual cover corner Dre Bly(Leigh Bodden). It goes the other way, better secondary aid gives the pass rushers more time, just like a better pass rush aids the secondary. Throw in a healthy DeWayne White(hopefuly for a full season) and some young pass rushers(who can't be any worse than Kalimba). What's worse than nothing from Kalimba?

The Lions will be fine. They'll get no respect which is fine. Any other 7 win team wouldn't be expected to go back to 4-5 other than the Lions. But that just makes all the wins that much more enjoyable(especially in the divison).

TacticaLion
07-29-2008, 09:03 PM
But that just makes all the wins that much more enjoyable(especially in the divison).I agree with everything you said. It's knowledgeable, not just biased, and there's a big difference.

Someone posted this somewhere else, and I thought they made some good points.

People seem to forget or don't realize that Shaun Rogers accumulated 4.5 of
his 7 sacks against Denver and KC, which both had decimated offensive lines
and were primarily playing 2d and 3d string players. Additionally, Denver
was playing a backup QB after Cutler got hurt and KC was playing an
inexperienced QB as well. Thus, Rogers 2007 "accomplishments" came against
lesser competition.

Let's look at what Rogers did in the Lions 9 losses. The answer is "next to
nothing."

In game 16, he had half a sack against GB. In the Lions other 8 losses,
NONE.

In critical losses to Arizona, New York Giants, and Dallas, which all had
playoff implications, Shaun Rogers had ZERO solo tackles and just TWO
assists. He did manage to bat one pass away in the Dallas game. Against
teams with good OLs, Rogers did squadouche.

In the blowout losses to Philadelphia, Washington, Minnesota, and San Diego,
Rogers had 8 solo tackles, 4 assists, and no sacks. Those numbers are
inflated a bit due to the amount of time the Lions defense spent on the
field in each game.

In any event, outside the two outstanding games against sub-standard
competition, Rogers didn't do much the rest of the year.

It remains to be seen how much the Lions will miss Rogers. Indeed, in 2006,
after he was shifted to DT, Cory Redding had 7 sacks with guys like
undersized Tyoka Jackson, Cleveland Pinkney, Anthony Bryant, and Shaun Cody
playing next to him.

Interesting.

BcLion
07-30-2008, 07:56 AM
Tons of truth to that. But I know this team can compete with anyone at home(because a less talented Lion team did it last year) and most teams we play have their flaws too. Did Minni,Chicago address their QB situation. No but we addressed our secondary. And the Packers QB went from awesome to an unknown. We're not the only team with flaws. We have addressed our weak points that is 100% certain instead of just taking another receiver(doesn't mean they are fixed). Determining if they are fixed is a wait for the season type thing.

Oh I agree that we addressed needs this year more then any i can remember in the Millen era. For once we have a head coach who seems to finally understand the sexy picks in the draft wont makeup for glaring holes that have needed to be addressed. I like the draft and the FA's we chose this year more then any other during Millens tenure.

The second part of your post about Minny/GB/Chi I see your points but to be honest I am not eqating them into this conversation about the Lions. If I was to talk about them I could point out alot of strengths and weakness for all making a case for good and bad seasons. But I regress....

Running game. We averaged 4.0 yards per carry last yeaR (19th in league). We just need more attempts because with Martz we were severlely lagging in attempts. 100 more carries would be a more balanced number and giving at least 400 more rushing yards if nothing changed from last year. Getting our average per carry up is the tricky part. Helping this will be either Gosder Cherilus who is a good run blocker and a blocking tight end in Campbell or Michael Gaines. The Lions had no run blocking tight end last year when Campbell got hurt plus Martz doesn't really use one enough. Tough to block 7 people with only 6 guys. Imagine if your team didn't have a solid blocking tight end. Could you run the ball? Campbell should be back within a week in the report I read plus we have Michael Gaines. Imagine a two tight end set?

I like the additions we made to help our running game as much as you do. I just question if the Oline is made for this new system and how long will it take to learn it and gel. Plus as much manlove as I have for campbell we dont know if he is the same player as he was before his injury. Time will tell. I like what I hear about Gaines and I am also excited from camp reports about Felton laying the smack down. Lets hope that translates to gamedays and he can learn the playbook. I also wonder if Bradley is going to make the team and if he is going to be better in his second year as a FB. Reports say his weight is down and he has really dedicated himself to the position.


On the secondary

If you are picking between Bodden or Fernando Bryant. Who would you pick?

The way I see it is Kelly replaced Bryant. Fernando played decent last year and if Kelly can be on par Id be happy.

You are picking between Brian Kelly and either Stanley Wilson or Keith Smith. Who ya got.

I see Bodden competing with Fisher/Smith this year for the other starting CB slot. We need to see if he is as good a fit for the Tampa2 as this is his first year in it. We may see growing pains as he digests the new scheme and see mistakes.

Dwight Smith or Kennoy Kennedy. Can Kennedy cover anyone?

Question is Dwight Smith SS or FS? I have not heard as of yet in training camp reports what slot he is going to play. Either way I can agree that he is upgrade over KK.

Alexander rookie or Alexander year 2 or Bullocks.

I am a big fan of both these players and really kinda think we wil see both on the field at same time with Dwight Smith playing nickel. Our safetys are a strong point this season as both Alexander and Bullocks showed great potential for rookie safetys.

Darby or Rogers in terms of run stuffing. Darby has been succesful on 2 Super Bowl teams in run defense. He will only play run downs leaving a young DT to rush the passer along with Redding on 3rd down. Rogers has never in 7 years been on a top 20 rush team. Not with Dan Wilkinson,Cody,Redding etc. Inconsistency in his run blocking crushes us more than inconsitency in his pass rush.

I agree that it was time for Big Baby to go. He wasnt motivated and happy for whatever reason and Darby is servicable for 20 plays a game. The Question is Cody. Will this guy finally get his game together and contribute or is it anouther 2nd round wasted pick.

Its time for a change there. And as far as pass rush, Rogers never had as good of a year as Redding did in 2006 in sacks. 8 sacks was never topped by Rogers like Redding had. Redding only had 1 last year but played very well against the run especially compared to Rogers. It was pretty much like Rogers was playing under tackle even though he was the nose and Redding was playing nose tackle even though he was the under tackle. And even then Redding was in the backfield more than Rogers last year and more consistently. I'm talking pressures and QB hits. Rogers was just able to finish off a few more sacks.

Redding has the capability to get back to 8. Especially when Redding got 8 WITHOUT SHAUN ROGERS and with an actual cover corner Dre Bly(Leigh Bodden). It goes the other way, better secondary aid gives the pass rushers more time, just like a better pass rush aids the secondary. Throw in a healthy DeWayne White(hopefuly for a full season) and some young pass rushers(who can't be any worse than Kalimba). What's worse than nothing from Kalimba?

I love Redding and even tho he didnt garner sacks last year he is always a force and I think he will come back for a bigger year this season. Kalimba was always a bust. My only concern is Devries leads the way for starting left DE with IAF on his heals. Avril is strictly a specialist pass 3rd down rusher. I would have liked to seen a more productive player opposite of White for a dominant Dline to be feared.

The Lions will be fine. They'll get no respect which is fine. Any other 7 win team wouldn't be expected to go back to 4-5 other than the Lions. But that just makes all the wins that much more enjoyable(especially in the divison).

LoL so TRUE about the Lions, We wil get respect when we earn it I guess. I will be enjoying some division wins with ya especially listening to al the preseason hype and smack they always talk.

Bclion

BcLion
08-04-2008, 07:46 AM
Very good read if you havnt seen it yet. I tend to agree with him and it seems he is in line with what we have been discussing here.





Lions committed to improving ground game in camp

By Pat Kirwan | NFL.com
Senior Analyst

ALLEN PARK, Mich. -- The Detroit Lions got off to a fast start last year, winning six of their first eight games, but faded with just one win in the second half of the season.

With Detroit's struggles down the stretch in mind, the offense has been totally revamped. After watching the most physical workout so far on my camp tour, there is no doubt the commitment to the run game is a big part of the 2008 offense.

Jon Kitna may be the best quarterback in the NFC North, if Brett Favre isn't part of the equation. He explained that the plan in Detroit is to run the ball, but will look to pass when defenses bring the safety down for run support and leave Roy Williams and Calvin Johnson singled up.

Can the Lions get off to another fast start and this time sustain it?

While at camp, I sat down with 10 starters for a discussion about the team, the direction Rod Marinelli has them going and what might lie ahead this season.

The Lions open at Atlanta, host Green Bay (presumably without Favre), go to San Francisco and return home for a game against Chicago, a team they beat twice last year. Marinelli is pushing this team very hard right now and everyone seems to be on board with the grueling camp schedule.

As DT Cory Redding said, "It took three years but Coach Marinelli has the locker room filled with his guys."

Marinelli emphasized the hard work the defense is putting in to build a package to stop the run with seven players in the box. From what I saw, it looks like the unit has a chance to stop the run with seven in the box, especially with the addition of nose tackle Chartric Darby. Marinelli needs to stunt the front four and penetrate the offensive line to be effective. Darby and Cory Redding can provide the inside pressure to be disruptive.

After watching three hours of practice, video tapes and sitting down with Matt Millen, here are the five most compelling questions for the Detroit Lions.

1. Can the zone running scheme work for the Lions?
Offensive coordinator Jim Colletto is a hard-nosed line coach. At this point, he's put in just two basic running plays in camp and the defense knows what is coming all the time. The philosophy is to make the base running game work no matter what the circumstances. With the defense constantly coming downhill at the two plays, it makes it tough to move the ball. In turn, as center Dominic Raiola pointed out, it makes the offense very tough as a group.

The run game has wide receiver Roy Williams talking. "We need to stick with the run, even if we don't gain yardage early in a game, we can't get away from the run and it will open up the passing game." Look for the Detroit running game to resemble the kind the Raiders had last year when they averaged 130 yards per game by sticking with the ground game even when they were behind.

2. Can the Lions stop the pass?
The Lions were the 31st ranked pass defense in the NFL last year and there have been great efforts made to improve the situation. But is it enough? I sat down with three of the new starting defensive backs -- Leigh Bodden, Brian Kelly, and Dwight Smith -- and there is no doubt the back end of the defense will be better in 2008. Kelly and Smith have been in the system before and know how to cheat the coverage's against certain routes. Bodden is good enough to take a solid receiver out of a game. Safety Daniel Bullocks is back from injury and learning the finer points of the Tampa 2 coverages from the newly added veterans.

The problems arise in the pass rush. No matter how good the secondary is a pass rush in front of them is needed to be effective. It's a work in progress. There is no elite pass rusher on the roster and to maintain a four-man rush and avoid the blitzing that will get them in trouble, Marinelli is pushing some of the inexperienced pass rushers very hard. Detroit needs second year defensive end Ikaika Alama-Francis or rookie Cliff Avril to step up right away and be a solid third down rusher. Marinelli never seems to let up on either one of them, but he is optimistic about both players. Marinelli says Francis has the raw talent to be special and Avril is a real smart player with quickness. Until one of these guys delivers, the pass defense is a question mark.

3. Can the four rookies the Lions are counting on most be ready in time to help?

Detroit needs immediate help from four rookies. Here is an assessment of where they stand right now.

A. Kevin Smith: Smith reminds me of Corey Dillon and Jon Kitna feels the same way about him. Smith is a powerful zone runner who can break a tackle. His most impressive attribute is his ability to be patient and read the scheme in front of him. I think a 1,000-yard season is a realistic goal after watching him practice and spending some time with him.

B. Gosder Cherilus: Cherilus is already the starting right tackle on offense and he is perfect for the power running game. He's a mauler who likes to finish blocks, but he needs work on his pass blocking. He tends to be too high out of his stance and over aggressive with pass rushers. As Cherilus said to me after practice, "I have to learn not to try and destroy everyone. Patience is a key to pass blocking." He will be better in the second half of the year than the first half.

C. Cliff Avril: Avril is an undersized pass rusher but his power and quickness make up for his lack of size. He should be a situational pass rusher who may struggle to record sacks but will disrupt the pocket.

D. Jordon Dizon: Dizon was originally slated to play middle linebacker but that appears to be Paris Lenon's job at this time. While Dizon will be brought along a little slower, his instincts and playing speed will get him on the field before season's end.

4. Is there a capable backup quarterback on the roster?
If Kitna were to go down with injury things would be bleak in Detroit. The Lions will give Drew Stanton and Dan Orlovsky a lot of work this summer, Still, adding a veteran QB to the roster before the season starts would be a good idea.

5. Can the Lions turn their long history of losing around in 2008?
Lions fans are tired of losing and so are the players and coaches. This team is a lot tougher than the 2006 team and improved from the 2007 squad. I could see the Lions getting out to a 4-4 start, but the second half of the schedule is tough. Depending on health and how quickly the rookies develop, a realistic record is anywhere from 7-9 to 9-7..

I also have been thinking a .500 season with chance at 9-7 and even 10-6 if things get hot on offense.Can't wait for thursday!!!!!!

Bclion

Iamcanadian
08-09-2008, 03:03 PM
Outside on Minny, I expect the NFC North to stink, even Minny must hope that Jackson has improved or they will be a one and out team in the playoffs.
When you play in a conference this weak, does finishing second mean anything, not IMO.
Offense:
We could be pretty decent on offense but only if Smith comes through which in my opinion is still a huge unknown. Cherilus will struggle for the 1st 4-8 games. His pass blocking needs a lot of work and even his run blocking won't be up to snuff until he gets some real experience under his belt. If we can run the ball out of the gate, our offense will use the run to set up the pass. Until they can force teams to respect the run Roy and Johnson will be double teamed and the DL of our opponents will continue to ignore the run and attack Kitna. If that happens Kitna won't play well. So our offensive season will rest almost completely on how well we can run the ball and right now that is just a huge unknown.

Defense:
Plugging in quite a few mundane FA's just doesn't guarantee much if any improvement. For the Cover 2 to be successful, you need a tremendous pass rush from your DL and I just don't see any improvement in that area happening. If the pass rush is mediocre, solid NFL QB's will cut up our defense and throw the pieces to the dogs. They be licking their lips in anticipation and simply blow our defense away. Sure, in our Division, there may not be any QB's capable of doing that and we may actually look quite decent in Division games but once we step out of this Division, we will be in serious trouble.
Our LBing core is still rather mediocre even with Sims playing there. Even Marinelli knows that playing a rookie LB is very questionable in a Cover 2 defense that depends so much on each player understanding his responsibilities thoroughly. The same for our defensive backfield which will start a # of DB's who have little playing experience in a Cover 2 scheme.
You can forget a quick start IMO with so many new faces on defense.


Overall, I can see us being quite competitive within the Division which really only has mediocre QB's who on the surface won't be able to take advantage of our defense. I believe we have the possibility of coming out of our Division with a winning record. We also have a legitimate shot against Atlanta and San Fran on the road as QB is not yet their strong point either and we might catch one or two other teams sleeping when we play them, looking ahead to their next opponent, but that is about it folks. Even this may be quite difficult to pull off since the other teams in our Division are pretty well thinking the same things about us.
If we can win 5 Divisional games in the NFC North, split with our 2 weakest opponents on the road and be lucky enough to get 1 victory against a superior team that we catch looking ahead to their next opponent then 7 wins are about the best we can expect. It will be very tough to pull off 7 wins but not impossible. That indicates to me that dreaming of making a playoff run is simply ridiculous based on nothing but dreams of grandeur. I'd give us about a 3% chance of getting that lucky but since this Division is so weak, I cannot say it is impossible.

bearsfan_51
09-09-2008, 07:46 PM
http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/loldog-cute-puppy-pictures-fail.jpg

BRAVEHEART
09-09-2008, 07:56 PM
http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/loldog-cute-puppy-pictures-fail.jpg

Trolly Troll Troll, hey look at the troll.

TacticaLion
09-10-2008, 03:37 PM
http://ihasahotdog.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/loldog-cute-puppy-pictures-fail.jpg

Strange, silly troll.

Aren't you the one that, after last year's opening day loss (when the Bears were the only winless team in the NFC North), created a thread about week 1 overreactions? And now, here you are...

Considering we play much better at home and still have 15 games left, I think 8-8 isn't unrealistic. Stick to the Bears forum.

bearsfan_51
09-10-2008, 07:20 PM
Strange, silly troll.

Aren't you the one that, after last year's opening day loss (when the Bears were the only winless team in the NFC North), created a thread about week 1 overreactions? And now, here you are...

Considering we play much better at home and still have 15 games left, I think 8-8 isn't unrealistic. Stick to the Bears forum.

This isn't an overreaction. I told you before the Falcons game that the Lions would be terrible and only win 3-4 games. This just reaffirms what I already said. You get destroyed by Falcons and can still find 8 other wins on the schedule? Mmmkay.

TacticaLion
09-11-2008, 06:01 PM
This isn't an overreaction. I told you before the Falcons game that the Lions would be terrible and only win 3-4 games. This just reaffirms what I already said. You get destroyed by Falcons and can still find 8 other wins on the schedule? Mmmkay.

Yet, if you look at last year, we played very poorly on the road and very well at home. That was 1 game - 1 of 16 - so, if you honestly think from that 1 game that we're as bad as we looked, that is an overreaction.

And, if you think the Bears were as good as they looked, that's also an overreaction. Although, using your logic, the Bears should win 13 games this year, shouldn't they? After all, they looked good for 1 game... that means they'll play that way all 16 games, right?

As I said before, stick to the Bears forum.

WMD
11-23-2008, 12:48 PM
Conclusion

All things considered, I think the Lions will finish the 2008 season with a 8-8 record. They've improved their defense, have play makers on offense and a schedule that plays to their strengths/weaknesses. If the Bears continue to fall and the Packers struggle to click without Favre, the Lions could find themselves sitting 2nd in the NFC North and fighting for a playoff berth through week 17.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: Tactica.. always the optimist

bearsfan_51
11-23-2008, 12:51 PM
Thanks for bringing this back up. I love how Tactica completely bitched out after he was made to look like a complete ******. In retrospect I may have been kind with those 3 wins.

WMD
11-23-2008, 12:52 PM
Lions will be worse than last year. Jon Kitna will be one year worse. We have no Play makers on defense. We have the 6th toughest schedule in the NFL. We have Jeff Backus.


Pretty much every team we go against has an above average defense. I could actually see us starting 0-12 before we go against the Titans.. and even then, Albert Haynesworth will eat Jon Kitna alive and have his lifetime supply of Bibles for dessert.

We'll see what happens, but my expectations for the season are real, real low and I'd be surprised if we don't have a Top 5 pick in the 2009 Draft.

Go me for being mostly correct.. didn't really expect the Titans to be this good though.

Iamcanadian
11-23-2008, 09:07 PM
Give Tactical a break. He's just so optimistic reality gets away from him sometimes. He must be young to believe so strongly in the Lions. He just hasn't learned that as long as WCF owns the team, it is very difficult to hope for much.

Maybe Next Year Millen2
11-24-2008, 01:17 PM
Its amazing how a fat lazy although talented piece of crap in Shaun Rogers and a stubborn get your QB killed coach like Martz had such a dramatic effect on this team to get 7 wins last year. Even though the Browns and 49ers still have losing records. But losing Rogers and getting players that "try" hard makes a team worse. The secondary should be better but with even less of pass rush they look worse. Fernando Bryant, Kennoy Kennedy, Stanley Wilson outperformed Bodden,Kelly and Dwight
Smith. Of course, Kelly is over the hill and Smith was never good but its freaking Kennoy Kennedy and Stanley Wilson. Travis Fisher is still Travis Fisher.

Lenon of course regressed without Rogers and is truly the worst staring MLB ever(starter for 3 years holy crap), Sims regressed a ton trying to do too much(which is amazing but not suprising as a Millen pick) and Boss Bailey is missed because he could at least tackle once in awhile and stick with a tight end on occasion.

I have realized that Rudy sucks in real life. That is what the Lions have taught me. We have the greatest attitude coach(but of course ******** people always have great attitudes) and "more balance on O" but if Rudy, a talentless player, played in more than a few snaps at Notre Dame he would be on IR or look like the Lions defense looks this year. It also teaches me that any nimrod can walk onto Notre Dame(which is true if you saw what Syracuse did). The Lions defensive players are merely the finish line tape in this track meet we see every week.

Marinellis players he wanted are worse than Millens if thats even possible. Typical 3rd year Lions coach syndrome. Optimism going in, pure diarrhea coming out of the season.

dunagan15
11-24-2008, 08:56 PM
hey Lions fans, just was curious how Adam Jennings did? Did he return punts or get and time at WR?

Gay Ork Wang
11-26-2008, 04:15 PM
oh god i want tactica back

detroit4life
11-27-2008, 11:49 PM
the difference is believe it or not Shaun rogers. Every team now runs right up the middle of our defense into the secondary. We cannot get pressure either. He is the difference. We went 6-2 with him going strong and then he got lazy. Once he got lazy we lost. Now we dont have him and we are losing. Granted he had to go but he is the only major difference between last years first half and now. We are missing a big clog in the middle of our dline who made penetration, took double teams, got sacks or allowed someone else to get sacks

GB12
11-27-2008, 11:51 PM
Shaun Rogers hurts a lot more than most Lions fans thought in the offseason, but he is not the difference of 6 wins. The Lions might have 1 or 2 with him. Maybe.

Iamcanadian
11-28-2008, 09:31 AM
As I have been saying all along, the Cover 2 defense demands guys who can get sacks from the front 4. Without those kinds of players, the Cover 2 becomes a joke and we can all see the results. End of story. Without a pass rush, the back 7 who play in a zone defense most of the time will get completely picked apart as a zone defense absolutely requires that the QB has as little time as possible to find the seams.
We are simply paying the price for drafting a WR instead of Gaines Adams. Johnson might be the greatest WR ever but without a solid starting QB, nobody will even notice him. That's why a WR is called a secondary position because without the QB they aren't going to be stars. While a DE on a Cover 2 team is a primary position and simply must be filled by good players.
Our defense is simply paying the price for a ridiculous pick for a team trying to get better.

619
11-28-2008, 09:39 AM
As I have been saying all along, the Cover 2 defense demands guys who can get sacks from the front 4. Without those kinds of players, the Cover 2 becomes a joke and we can all see the results. End of story. Without a pass rush, the back 7 who play in a zone defense most of the time will get completely picked apart as a zone defense absolutely requires that the QB has as little time as possible to find the seams.
We are simply paying the price for drafting a WR instead of Gaines Adams. Johnson might be the greatest WR ever but without a solid starting QB, nobody will even notice him. That's why a WR is called a secondary position because without the QB they aren't going to be stars. While a DE on a Cover 2 team is a primary position and simply must be filled by good players.
Our defense is simply paying the price for a ridiculous pick for a team trying to get better.

The sad part about it all is I think Millen succumbed to the pressure of the media who at the time were hailing him as the greatest receiver prospect ever and evidently ignored his own agenda. You can also thank Martz for that draft blunder as well.

Iamcanadian
11-28-2008, 10:06 AM
The sad part about it all is I think Millen succumbed to the pressure of the media who at the time were hailing him as the greatest receiver prospect ever and evidently ignored his own agenda. You can also thank Martz for that draft blunder as well.

Hard to blame Martz, he was in charge of the offense, that's the way Millen set it up, so obviously he wanted an offensive player. What would you expect? It was Millen's job to tell Martz NO, and it wasn't Martz's job to decide who to draft. Again that was Millen's job.
I do agree that Millen succumbed to pressure, not so much the media, but the pressure to draft a stud who had little chance of flopping. He simply couldn't afford another flop but the shear craziness of drafting yet another WR was actually welcomed by the fans.
I have a theory which I cannot prove but in my gut I know it is true. Tampa Bay played Millen for the fool he is. They made it appear that they wanted Johnson badly and probably even called Millen suggesting a trade. They did everything they could to convince Millen to draft Johnson, WHY, because like Detroit they play a Cover 2 defense and with Rice retiring, were absolutely desperate to find his replacement. They must have jumped for joy when Detroit passed on Adams and selected Johnson. They haven't looked back since. They've gone from drafting in the top 5 that year to being a solid playoff team ever since while we have become 'The Joke'. They have one of the top defenses in the whole NFL while ours is well, need I say, ugly. We have never recovered from that ridiculous selection.

Brodeur
11-28-2008, 10:38 AM
Harp on the CJesus pick all you want, it was still a far better pick than Mike Williams over DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Johnson.

woodnick
11-28-2008, 11:04 AM
Harp on the CJesus pick all you want, it was still a far better pick than Mike Williams over DeMarcus Ware, Shawne Merriman, and Derrick Johnson.

Salt in the wound brother, salt in the wound!

Geo
11-28-2008, 11:16 AM
We are simply paying the price for drafting a WR instead of Gaines Adams.
I'll take Calvin Johnson over Gaines Adams any day of the week, and twice on Sundays. Adams is not special, Johnson is special.

Don't settle for the lesser player just because he fits a greater need, especially with a roster that is hardly a player away. Plus that argument is very debatable now given that Roy Williams wasn't re-signed, and they got a first & third for him.

The Lions could/should have drafted a DE sooner than Cliff Avril this past April. Unless I'm mistaken, they had the chance to draft either MLB David Harris or DE LaMarr Woodley in the 2nd round of 2007, and in typical Millen fashion, he blew another pick.

Millen = worst GM in NFL history.

GB12
11-28-2008, 12:04 PM
As many jokes as you can make about the Lions taking WRs, Calvin Johnson is worth it. The Raiders made a huge mistake by not taking him over Russell. And if you weren't going to take him it should have been for Joe Thomas not Gaines Adams.

Iamcanadian
11-28-2008, 11:03 PM
I must be missing something. How are we going to use Johnson since we don't have a QB who can get him the ball. He's never going to be a star playing for Detroit, he'll never put up the stats to show how good he could be playing here so why draft him except it looks good on paper.
Yeah, it sure hurt Tampa drafting Adams, one of the best defenses in the NFL since he arrived and 2 for 2 as far as the playoffs are concerned after finishing as one of the worst teams in the NFL before they got him. Yeah, they don't have a clue, Millen is just way smarter than them. If you want to agree with Millen and put yourself on his side about drafting, go ahead, but just maybe you should think about it a second.

bearsfan_51
11-28-2008, 11:44 PM
I must be missing something. How are we going to use Johnson since we don't have a QB who can get him the ball. He's never going to be a star playing for Detroit, he'll never put up the stats to show how good he could be playing here so why draft him except it looks good on paper.
Yeah, it sure hurt Tampa drafting Adams, one of the best defenses in the NFL since he arrived and 2 for 2 as far as the playoffs are concerned after finishing as one of the worst teams in the NFL before they got him. Yeah, they don't have a clue, Millen is just way smarter than them. If you want to agree with Millen and put yourself on his side about drafting, go ahead, but just maybe you should think about it a second.
Are you honestly trying to make the argument that the difference between Tampa and Detroit is Gaines Adams? Do you think for a split second that Tampa wouldn't gladly trade Adams for Johnson?

The Bucs are better because the other 52 guys on their roster are better than the other 52 players on the Lions. You're essentially sacrificing the only good non-kicker the Lions have.

WMD
11-29-2008, 12:35 AM
I think it's funny that we don't have a QB to get Calvin the ball, but yet he's::

#4 in Total Receiving Yards (917)
#1 in Average Yards Per Catch from all players with over 50 Rec. (18.3)
#2 (tied) Most TD Receptions (8)
#2 in Receptions over 20 Yards (16)

All the while being #24 in Total Receptions with 53. Just imagine if we had a half competent OL and QB..

BRAVEHEART
11-29-2008, 12:53 AM
I think it's funny that we don't have a QB to get Calvin the ball, but yet he's::

#4 in Total Receiving Yards (917)
#1 in Average Yards Per Catch from all players with over 50 Rec. (18.3)
#2 (tied) Most TD Receptions (8)
#2 in Receptions over 20 Yards (16)

All the while being #24 in Total Receptions with 53. Just imagine if we had a half competent OL and QB..

It'd be really unfair, and the football gods know this. Why do you think Calvin had such a terrible QB in college?

Maybe Next Year Millen2
11-29-2008, 10:40 AM
Yes Gaines Adams would not save this team due to the lack of talent everywhere else. Calvin Johnson is our offense when it is decent. Now that Roy is gone, I'm so glad we drafted Calvin. Imagine how bad our offense would be with Roy who is having a terrible year and McDonald. Way worse, on top of our pathetic defense.

Don't get me wrong, we need a DE in the worst way, but I'm glad we have Calvin over Gaines Adams.

P-L
12-02-2008, 11:05 AM
I might trade Calvin for Joe Thomas, but not Gaines Adams.

wingboy2999
12-02-2008, 05:45 PM
I might trade Calvin for Joe Thomas, but not Gaines Adams.

Maybe.... maybe.

yourfavestoner
12-10-2008, 02:40 AM
This thread =
http://images.bigfail.com/i/f/10/00/081.jpg

wingboy2999
12-10-2008, 12:19 PM
Troll much?

Xiomera
12-10-2008, 12:22 PM
Get the hell out of our thread, stoner!

wingboy2999
12-10-2008, 12:35 PM
Wow... Xio is a SQUARE.

Xiomera
12-10-2008, 01:01 PM
Wow... Xio is a SQUARE.

That's more than you can say you purple triangle of a man.

CC.SD
12-10-2008, 02:32 PM
I arrived at this thread through stoner's link, and I just have to say, having survived watching a 1-15 season myself not all THAT long ago, that it's not the end of the world. I can definitely foresee a scenario where the Lions pour out some aggression and beat Green Bay, and maybe set the tone for next year.

DoWnThEfiElD
12-10-2008, 02:42 PM
Not likely Ryan Grant will have a field day...

Xiomera
12-10-2008, 08:02 PM
I arrived at this thread through stoner's link, and I just have to say, having survived watching a 1-15 season myself not all THAT long ago, that it's not the end of the world. I can definitely foresee a scenario where the Lions pour out some aggression and beat Green Bay, and maybe set the tone for next year.

Yeah, I can see Detroit beating Green Bay too.