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View Full Version : Alex Smith officially loses starting job to JT O'Sullivan


49ersfan_87
08-22-2008, 06:29 PM
Thought this is somewhat newsworthy, with Smith being a former #1 overall pick and all

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp08/news/story?id=3549399


The 49ers have named J.T. O'Sullivan (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/profile?playerId=3745) as their starting quarterback for the regular-season opener, coach Mike Nolan told reporters Friday.


O'Sullivan has gotten better every week while Smith has looked worse every week so this isn't a surprise to people who have been following the situation. Just hope O'Sullivan can not totally suck this year before we get our new QB in 09...

Bengalsrocket
08-22-2008, 06:47 PM
I think everyone saw that coming. The real question is, if O'sullivan is good enough - do you still blow a 1st rounder on a QB?

SeanTaylorRIP
08-22-2008, 06:53 PM
O'Sullivan my prediction will be the next in line of Martz QB's in the mold of Bulger and Warner. I like him, especially compared to Alex Smith. Smith needs a new start although personally I think he won't ever be a great starting QB. I think this is a good decision, although I am probably in the minority here because you have to consider money invested and credibility of your scouting team.

MetSox17
08-22-2008, 07:14 PM
O'Sullivan my prediction will be the next in line of Martz QB's in the mold of Bulger and Warner. I like him, especially compared to Alex Smith. Smith needs a new start although personally I think he won't ever be a great starting QB. I think this is a good decision, although I am probably in the minority here because you have to consider money invested and credibility of your scouting team.

No, i agree with you here, at some point, you have to cut your losses, and at this point, Alex Smith was nothing but a sunk cost. They might be able to move him though, someone might wanna give up a late round pick to start over with him, but i wouldn't count on it either. Get what you can, if anything, and move on. I wouldn't be ready to call JT O'Sullivan a Marc Bulger/Kurt Warner clone yet, though. At this point, i don't think they can draft a quarterback that early anymore. They'll have to go with vets at quarterback and shore up the rest of the team, and take someone in the second or third round and hope he pans out.

SchizophrenicBatman
08-22-2008, 07:22 PM
When O'Sullivan was with Carolina for like three games he reminded me some of Delhomme. Thought he was a guy who would eventually have a shot somewhere...in Martz's offense, he has more than that

abaddon41_80
08-22-2008, 07:23 PM
Smith has actually gotten better every week, just like JTO, but he is still throwing some inaccurate passes. The 49ers certainly aren't going to get rid of him because he has proven he can play in the regular season and do reasonably well. If JTO sucks and Smith isn't on the roster the 49ers are screwed. If JTO does well than Smith is gone after this season and the 49ers will draft a QB to back-up JT for a couple of years before taking over.

Smith is still young and if he gets a fresh start and some continuity, maybe as a back-up to some QB on their way out, he has shown he can do well given the right situation

PoopSandwich
08-22-2008, 09:12 PM
Double post some how sorry.

PoopSandwich
08-22-2008, 09:13 PM
1 San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith Quarterback Utah
2 Miami Dolphins Ronnie Brown Running back Auburn
3 Cleveland Browns Braylon Edwards Wide receiver Michigan
4 Chicago Bears Cedric Benson Running back Texas
5 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Carnell "Cadillac" Williams Running back Auburn
6 Tennessee Titans Adam "Pacman" Jones Cornerback West Virginia
7 Minnesota Vikings (from Oakland) Troy Williamson Wide receiver South Carolina
8 Arizona Cardinals Antrel Rolle Cornerback Miami (FL)
9 Washington Redskins Carlos Rogers Cornerback Auburn
10 Detroit Lions Mike Williams Wide receiver Southern California (USC)


Only 2 studs from the top 10 of a draft (Cadillac could develop but needs to avoid injuries.)

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
08-22-2008, 09:15 PM
Anyone know how much the cap-hit would be on Alex Smith if they cut him at the end of the season?

Bengalsrocket
08-22-2008, 09:27 PM
1 San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith Quarterback Utah
2 Miami Dolphins Ronnie Brown Running back Auburn
3 Cleveland Browns Braylon Edwards Wide receiver Michigan
4 Chicago Bears Cedric Benson Running back Texas
5 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Carnell "Cadillac" Williams Running back Auburn
6 Tennessee Titans Adam "Pacman" Jones Cornerback West Virginia
7 Minnesota Vikings (from Oakland) Troy Williamson Wide receiver South Carolina
8 Arizona Cardinals Antrel Rolle Cornerback Miami (FL)
9 Washington Redskins Carlos Rogers Cornerback Auburn
10 Detroit Lions Mike Williams Wide receiver Southern California (USC)


Only 2 studs from the top 10 of a draft (Cadillac could develop but needs to avoid injuries.)

Which two are you counting? Cuz Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown and Adam "Pacman" Jones are seem like pretty solid picks to me. And Antrel Rolle isn't terrible imo.

Ness
08-22-2008, 09:27 PM
Thought this is somewhat newsworthy, with Smith being a former #1 overall pick and all

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/trainingcamp08/news/story?id=3549399



O'Sullivan has gotten better every week while Smith has looked worse every week so this isn't a surprise to people who have been following the situation. Just hope O'Sullivan can not totally suck this year before we get our new QB in 09...

Actually no, Smith has gotten better. His pocket presence is better than it's ever been. And he gets the ball out quite fast. If the line breaks down, he improvises and makes something happen in his favor. I don't think he's taken a sack this preseason yet.

The only thing that looks bad in his game is something that was never an issue before. And that's his accuracy when throwing the football. Ever since his shoulder injury and apparently being pressured to play through his injury, he hasn't been the same.

Hopefully he gets his arm back to how it once was. If he does, I think he can really thrive.

P-L
08-22-2008, 09:53 PM
Are people forgetting that J.T. O'Sullivan had a great preseason, under Martz, in Detroit last year but he looked completely lost in the regular season? Granted, Detroit didn't have nearly the running game that San Francisco will. I have nothing against the guy and wish him the best, but I think some people are getting their hopes up. I find it really odd that some people could suggest a guy who's been in the league for 6 years and has never started a game, could potentially be a multi-year solution for a team at QB, based on two preseason games.

Bengalsrocket
08-22-2008, 10:18 PM
Are people forgetting that J.T. O'Sullivan had a great preseason, under Martz, in Detroit last year but he looked completely lost in the regular season? Granted, Detroit didn't have nearly the running game that San Francisco will. I have nothing against the guy and wish him the best, but I think some people are getting their hopes up. I find it really odd that some people could suggest a guy who's been in the league for 6 years and has never started a game, could potentially be a multi-year solution for a team at QB, based on two preseason games.

Players have to start somewhere. Very few QB's are the starter from day 1 of being in the NFL, and even fewer actually keep that job (meaning a guy who's been on the bench stole it from them).

and just because Detroit and San Francisco share one common link (Martz), while JTO was on both teams, does not mean they're the same. A lot more variables have changed than ones that have stayed the same or are similar.

However that doesn't mean that I, or anyone else on these forums, thinks JTO is the answer in San Francisco. But I would doubt that the next guy that they develop to be their franchise QB is going to get shoved into the job as quickly as Alex Smith was. If for no other reason than the fact that they probably cannot afford to throw a first round pick at a QB. And we all know that later round QB's generally need time to catch up to the speed of the NFL (or, rather they need *more* time than first rounders).

So I don't think JTO is a permanent solution, but I'm sure everyone in 49er town is hoping he can be a temporary multi-year band-aid.

B-Dawk
08-22-2008, 10:27 PM
1 San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith Quarterback Utah
2 Miami Dolphins Ronnie Brown Running back Auburn
3 Cleveland Browns Braylon Edwards Wide receiver Michigan
4 Chicago Bears Cedric Benson Running back Texas
5 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Carnell "Cadillac" Williams Running back Auburn
6 Tennessee Titans Adam "Pacman" Jones Cornerback West Virginia
7 Minnesota Vikings (from Oakland) Troy Williamson Wide receiver South Carolina
8 Arizona Cardinals Antrel Rolle Cornerback Miami (FL)
9 Washington Redskins Carlos Rogers Cornerback Auburn
10 Detroit Lions Mike Williams Wide receiver Southern California (USC)


Only 2 studs from the top 10 of a draft (Cadillac could develop but needs to avoid injuries.)

the only stud right now that i would consider is Braylon, with the only question on brown being his injury

Sniper
08-22-2008, 10:31 PM
Which two are you counting? Cuz Braylon Edwards, Ronnie Brown and Adam "Pacman" Jones are seem like pretty solid picks to me. And Antrel Rolle isn't terrible imo.

Rolle has been a bust at CB. Jones' off the field issues tarnish his on field game. Braylon is unquestionably the best!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!

Let's watch Braylon at his collegiate best to celebrate this occasion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVZUKiRuIHk

CC.SD
08-22-2008, 10:39 PM
Step down Ryan. Your time at the top of the bust list is done.

Sniper
08-22-2008, 10:42 PM
Step down Ryan. Your time at the top of the bust list is done.

No way. Smith wasn't half the prospect Leaf was. Smith can thank Matt Leinart for making him so rich.

bearsfan_51
08-22-2008, 10:43 PM
No way Alex Smith has been a bigger bust than Ryan Leaf. Alex Smith was just a bad football player, Ryan Leaf was a bad human being.

DiG
08-22-2008, 10:48 PM
i dont see why shaun hill isnt getting any love?

didnt he win some regular season games for the niners? throw 5 tds and only 1 int?

Paranoidmoonduck
08-23-2008, 12:30 AM
Anyone who watched the way the three possible starters for San Francisco have played this preseason and listening to the press coming out of that training camp shouldn't be surprised.

LonghornsLegend
08-23-2008, 12:37 AM
Smith really didn't look impressive, he was throwing behind WR's, too high, he just didn't look sharp, and at some point its put up or shut up time...Sadly that time is coming soon for VY too, seeing as how the last two pre-season games he has been outplayed by Jamarcus Russell and Matt Ryan, two QB's who have had FAR less time in the NFL and Training camp then he has.

Brodeur
08-23-2008, 12:45 AM
It only took O'Sullivan 8 teams to find a starting job.

Ness
08-23-2008, 01:30 AM
i dont see why shaun hill isnt getting any love?

didnt he win some regular season games for the niners? throw 5 tds and only 1 int?Because in Mike Martz's offense he would take all aspects of being explosive out of it. If you've watched our preseason games you'll know that any pass beyond 30 yards is a mission for Hill.

Menardo75
08-23-2008, 02:00 AM
Hill is a vertical QB not a good fit for the offense. I don't think Alex is healthy looking at his throws when you have as strong of an arm as he has you don't underthrow 40 yard streaks JT has earned the job though hope he wins some games for the club

Boston
08-23-2008, 02:03 AM
And to think, they could have had this bad ass.

http://i33.tinypic.com/9azoci.jpg

Ness
08-23-2008, 02:06 AM
And to think, they could have had this bad ass.

http://i33.tinypic.com/9azoci.jpg

That's a good one.

Xonraider
08-23-2008, 02:09 AM
There goes my backup QB

ninerfan
08-23-2008, 06:17 AM
And to think, they could have had this bad ass.

http://i33.tinypic.com/9azoci.jpg

You dont think that Rodgers isnt thanking God everynight that he wasnt drafted to the basket case that is the 49ers under Nolan ?

Anyone taken no.1 under this regime was gonna fail. Alex isnt a bad QB but in 4 years he's had 4 OC, numerous WR's and a deadbeat HC.

Mark my words: someone will pick up Alex and make him a very good QB

Addict
08-23-2008, 06:56 AM
You dont think that Rodgers isnt thanking God everynight that he wasnt drafted to the basket case that is the 49ers under Nolan ?

Anyone taken no.1 under this regime was gonna fail. Alex isnt a bad QB but in 4 years he's had 4 OC, numerous WR's and a deadbeat HC.

Mark my words: someone will pick up Alex and make him a very good QB

Smith, like Carr, has picked up too many bad habits by now.

TyronePoole38
08-23-2008, 08:00 AM
Step down Ryan. Your time at the top of the bust list is done.


Leaf didn't have 4 different OC's in 4 years. Completely different circumstances. Smith > Leaf.

abaddon41_80
08-23-2008, 10:08 AM
Step down Ryan. Your time at the top of the bust list is done.

I think you're joking, right?

awfullyquiet
08-23-2008, 10:17 AM
Smith, like Carr, has picked up too many bad habits by now.

This is a true statement. Although, i'd be hesitant to use the word 'to'. Brett Favre has many bad habit. Everyone does. If you can crutch them. You should be fine. You have to find a coach that'd work to that.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2008, 10:29 AM
Obviously with a paycut, I don't mind picking him up. Kid is 24 years old, with a good oline, and good QB coach, like Coach Palmer, I think he can learn from the people already on the staff. Not to mention he is a very smart kid, and still young.

bearsfan_51
08-23-2008, 10:41 AM
You dont think that Rodgers isnt thanking God everynight that he wasnt drafted to the basket case that is the 49ers under Nolan ?

Anyone taken no.1 under this regime was gonna fail. Alex isnt a bad QB but in 4 years he's had 4 OC, numerous WR's and a deadbeat HC.

Mark my words: someone will pick up Alex and make him a very good QB

This excuse is getting so tired.

Alex Smith isn't even close on half his throws. If he were starting, he would easily be the most innacurate starting quarterback in the NFL. He's just not very good.

soybean
08-23-2008, 10:43 AM
This excuse is getting so tired.

Alex Smith isn't even close on half his throws. If he were starting, he would easily be the most innacurate starting quarterback in the NFL. He's just not very good.

i was just going to write that.

i hate that alex smith will always have that excuse. Just watching him play you can tell that he's just not a very good qb. different offensive coordinators don't make you under and over throws.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-23-2008, 10:49 AM
How much did his shoulder injury come into play? He was "good" enough to be the first overall pick, and I doubt scouts wouldn't write good reports, if he truly was an inaccurate QB. I am guessing the injury, different OCs from the beggining, and now the pressure to do well, are all factors in his play. That's why it's probably the best situation for both parties for him to find a new team. A change of scenery perhaps would good.

abaddon41_80
08-23-2008, 10:57 AM
If you guys think he has always been inaccurate you didn't watch him before he injured his shoulder

bearsfan_51
08-23-2008, 11:03 AM
Whatever, who cares? The point is that he's not even a decent quarterback right now. He deserves discussion about as much as David Carr. All of these excuses need to end. It's over.

HawkeyeFan
08-23-2008, 02:47 PM
And to think, they could have had this bad ass.

http://i33.tinypic.com/9azoci.jpg

Future drive of 18 wheels of steel.

Seriously, Alex has been BAD, hasn't had the most help around him but just bad obviously.


I'd still take a QB 1st round if I was San Fran.

bearsfan_51
08-23-2008, 02:54 PM
So long as Mike Martz is there I don't think you need a 1st round QB, a better right tackle might actually be more of a priority.

Of course it seems unlikely that the Nolan regime returns next year, so who knows what will happen.

LonghornsLegend
08-23-2008, 03:09 PM
I don't know why Martz gets so much power in personnel decisions when he is with teams because he never stays in one spot too long...When he was in Detroit they drafted Drew Stanton because he was a "Martz guy" and could probably fit that system pretty well, well now that he's gone how useful is that pick? Niners still need a QB, depending on where they pick they will have to look at all options.

Ness
08-23-2008, 03:24 PM
I don't know why Martz gets so much power in personnel decisions when he is with teams because he never stays in one spot too long...When he was in Detroit they drafted Drew Stanton because he was a "Martz guy" and could probably fit that system pretty well, well now that he's gone how useful is that pick? Niners still need a QB, depending on where they pick they will have to look at all options.

It's not his fault that he got fired from Detroit though.

Ness
08-23-2008, 03:26 PM
Smith, like Carr, has picked up too many bad habits by now.

Getting sacked isn't one of them.

Iamcanadian
08-23-2008, 03:34 PM
How much did his shoulder injury come into play? He was "good" enough to be the first overall pick, and I doubt scouts wouldn't write good reports, if he truly was an inaccurate QB. I am guessing the injury, different OCs from the beggining, and now the pressure to do well, are all factors in his play. That's why it's probably the best situation for both parties for him to find a new team. A change of scenery perhaps would good.

Or just maybe Nolan isn't a very solid appraiser of talent. Even San Fran removed him from that job.
I've been a supporter of Smith for awhile now but if you cannot play QB for Martz, your chances of ever making it as a starter in this league are slim to none.
Starting QB's in the NFL are all generally mentally tough, they don't let things get to them or they won't be starters long in this league. The Carr's, Couch's and Smith's just weren't mentally strong enough to survive difficult circumstances and are pretty well write offs as starting QB's. It's the one area that is very difficult for poor talent appraisers to judge when drafting and the reason why they got drafted so high. I seriously doubt the better talent appraisers who select for other teams would have taken these guys #1. They are far better at assessing players than are the Nolan's of this league.

SeanTaylorRIP
08-23-2008, 03:43 PM
The QB class of 2005 who were drafted is pretty brutal. Rogers, Derek Anderson and Campbell and maybe Orton are the only one's who appear to have long careers as starters, and Campbell and Anderson who was a 6th rounder are the only ones who will be starting for two years in a row.

Alex Smith
Aaron Rogers
Jason Campbell
Charlie Frye
Andrew Walter
David Greene
Kyle Orton
Stefan Lofors
Dan Orvloski
Adrian Mcphearson
Derek Anderson
James Kilian
Matt Cassell
Ryan Fitzpatrick

eaglesfan_45
08-23-2008, 03:47 PM
Alex Smith is the worst QB ever and the 49ers should be ashamed to have drafted him. He's the worst #1 draft pick in any sport. Alex Smith sucks, how do you lose a job to an unknown when you're the #1 overall pick. The 49ers must love being sucky.

BamaFalcon59
08-23-2008, 03:56 PM
Rolle has been a bust at CB. Jones' off the field issues tarnish his on field game. Braylon is unquestionably the best!!!!!!! YAY!!!!!!

Let's watch Braylon at his collegiate best to celebrate this occasion!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVZUKiRuIHk

That is pretty funny at 3:33.

Gatz
08-23-2008, 04:02 PM
Smith was a reach anyways, doesn't have the arm to be great. The top 10 of that draft class wasn't pretty either.

Iamcanadian
08-23-2008, 04:06 PM
The QB class of 2005 who were drafted is pretty brutal. Rogers, Derek Anderson and Campbell and maybe Orton are the only one's who appear to have long careers as starters, and Campbell and Anderson who was a 6th rounder are the only ones who will be starting for two years in a row.

Alex Smith
Aaron Rogers
Jason Campbell
Charlie Frye
Andrew Walter
David Greene
Kyle Orton
Stefan Lofors
Dan Orvloski
Adrian Mcphearson
Derek Anderson
James Kilian
Matt Cassell
Ryan Fitzpatrick

Actually, when a draft produces 4 starters it's called a successful QB draft no matter where they were picked.

SeanTaylorRIP
08-23-2008, 04:11 PM
Anderson and Campbell are the only starters. We have seen nothing from Rogers yet and Orton is a starter per se but could easily be out of the league within 3 years if he blows it this season. Also Campbell hasn't proven to have a complete season and a mediocre year or so he could lose his job same with Anderson, as great as he was last year if he starts throwing more INT's than TD's the Browns would be happy to finally get to put in Brady Quinn. I'd hardly call this a good QB draft, every single draft produces at least 4 starters at one point but I am talking about actual starting NFL QB's. This draft only has 3 sure bets at the most.

nrk
08-23-2008, 04:33 PM
Anderson and Campbell are the only starters. We have seen nothing from Rogers yet and Orton is a starter per se but could easily be out of the league within 3 years if he blows it this season. Also Campbell hasn't proven to have a complete season and a mediocre year or so he could lose his job same with Anderson, as great as he was last year if he starts throwing more INT's than TD's the Browns would be happy to finally get to put in Brady Quinn. I'd hardly call this a good QB draft, every single draft produces at least 4 starters at one point but I am talking about actual starting NFL QB's. This draft only has 3 sure bets at the most.

It's Rodgers. Also, every single draft produces at least 4 starters at one point? How many teams do you think are in the NFL?

bearsfan_51
08-23-2008, 04:42 PM
Orton won't be out of the league, he's the perfect #2 quarterback.

Brent
08-23-2008, 05:22 PM
I don't know why Martz gets so much power in personnel decisions when he is with teams because he never stays in one spot too long.
He got one in SF: he asked they bring in JTO.

He didnt voice any thing during the draft so who knows how much power he wields in SF, I dont believe it's much.

BufFan71
08-23-2008, 06:58 PM
man

when i hear about Alex Smith's failures .... it doesnt make me feel so bad that the Bills drafted JP Losman

nobodyinparticular
08-23-2008, 07:00 PM
1 San Francisco 49ers Alex Smith Quarterback Utah
2 Miami Dolphins Ronnie Brown Running back Auburn
3 Cleveland Browns Braylon Edwards Wide receiver Michigan
4 Chicago Bears Cedric Benson Running back Texas
5 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Carnell "Cadillac" Williams Running back Auburn
6 Tennessee Titans Adam "Pacman" Jones Cornerback West Virginia
7 Minnesota Vikings (from Oakland) Troy Williamson Wide receiver South Carolina
8 Arizona Cardinals Antrel Rolle Cornerback Miami (FL)
9 Washington Redskins Carlos Rogers Cornerback Auburn
10 Detroit Lions Mike Williams Wide receiver Southern California (USC)


Only 2 studs from the top 10 of a draft (Cadillac could develop but needs to avoid injuries.)

And that is why Al Davis was so willing to throw his 1st round pick away for a gamble on Randy Moss.

CC.SD
08-23-2008, 07:54 PM
And that is why Al Davis was so willing to throw his 1st round pick away for a gamble on Randy Moss.

Why are you still defending that move? Why not wash your hands of the whole thing?

Saints-Tigers
08-23-2008, 09:24 PM
JT looks good for every team he goes to in every preseason.

Ness
08-23-2008, 11:40 PM
Anderson and Campbell are the only starters. We have seen nothing from Rogers yet and Orton is a starter per se but could easily be out of the league within 3 years if he blows it this season. Also Campbell hasn't proven to have a complete season and a mediocre year or so he could lose his job same with Anderson, as great as he was last year if he starts throwing more INT's than TD's the Browns would be happy to finally get to put in Brady Quinn. I'd hardly call this a good QB draft, every single draft produces at least 4 starters at one point but I am talking about actual starting NFL QB's. This draft only has 3 sure bets at the most.

Not every draft produces that amount of good starting quarterbacks.

bored of education
08-23-2008, 11:59 PM
Irish QB's ftw! (not ND)

Mr.Regular
08-24-2008, 12:01 AM
2 studs from the top 10?
Smith- Mega Bust
Brown- Good when healthy, but in no way a stud
Edwards- STUD
Benson- Mega Bust
Caddilac- Good when healthy, but seriously injured
Pacman- Good when not suspended
Williamson- Mega Bust
Rolle- Decent, had to change positions
Rogers- Sub-par
Williams- Mega Bust

1 great player
2 good players that have injury questions
1 player with crazy legal problems
2 half decent players
4 Mega Busts

BlindSite
08-24-2008, 02:18 AM
I'd still like to see Smith go somewhere for a year or two before he's in the starting role again. He's what 23? having a 25 year old in 2 seasons time to take over the reigns who's been in 3/4 systems and had 3 years solid starting experience is a damn good thing to have as camp competition for the starting job once he's in a city with stable coordinators and a good supporting cast.

nobodyinparticular
08-24-2008, 03:17 AM
Why are you still defending that move? Why not wash your hands of the whole thing?

I'm sorry, does it not make sense in retrospect? That top 10 is a disaster. Randy Moss didn't work out in Oakland. Cool. But it would have been just as big a disaster if the Raiders had stayed put and used the draft pick on one of the busts.

Ness
08-24-2008, 03:53 AM
Alex Smith is the worst QB ever and the 49ers should be ashamed to have drafted him. He's the worst #1 draft pick in any sport. Alex Smith sucks, how do you lose a job to an unknown when you're the #1 overall pick. The 49ers must love being sucky.

This is how I know you're in high school. A statement like this justifies that.

Dr. Gonzo
08-24-2008, 03:59 AM
I'm sorry, does it not make sense in retrospect? That top 10 is a disaster. Randy Moss didn't work out in Oakland. Cool. But it would have been just as big a disaster if the Raiders had stayed put and used the draft pick on one of the busts.

I think the best scenario would have been keeping the pick and taking any one of the great LB's taken just after the top 10 in Merriman, Ware, or Johnson.

Boston
08-24-2008, 04:02 AM
I think the best scenario would have been keeping the pick and taking any one of the great LB's taken just after the top 10 in Merriman, Ware, or Johnson.

Funny thing about hindsight...

Dr. Gonzo
08-24-2008, 04:29 AM
Funny thing about hindsight...

No doubt. I remember back when the draft happened I was so upset that the Vikings took Troy Williamson over Mike Williams. It appears we were screwed either way. But I mean Al Davis loves his physical freaks so I don't think that you can rule out the chance he would have taken one of the LB's. I mean before the draft Williamson was thought to be a late teens pick and if I am not mistaken Carlos Rodgers was projected to go in the late teens as well so reaches did happen that draft.

Brent
08-24-2008, 08:12 AM
Funny thing about hindsight...
Which is why I love when ever people talk about Alex Smith like they all saw it coming back in '05.

CC.SD
08-24-2008, 12:18 PM
So apparently Al Davis foresaw the entire top ten busting, but didn't see that Randy Moss would be an enormous disaster and just as big of a wasted pick. Zero sum. Nothing to brag about.

bearsfan_51
08-24-2008, 12:24 PM
Trying to defend Al Davis is such a ridiculously lost cause.

BamaFalcon59
08-24-2008, 12:34 PM
Check my sig. DHall ftw.

Menardo75
08-24-2008, 01:24 PM
Trying to defend Al Davis is such a ridiculously lost cause.

Yeah I wonder how that franchise will succeed if he is still in office

RaiderNation
08-24-2008, 02:25 PM
Yeah I wonder how that franchise will succeed if he is still in office

Tell you one thing we have a MUCH brighter future than you guys right now. Only 3 people that are decent I could name off the top my head from your team is Gore your way overpaid CB and Willis

GB12
08-24-2008, 02:37 PM
Brown- Good when healthy, but in no way a stud
He was having a great year last year before getting hurt. He was doing better than LT and AD without the benefit of a top run blocking line like the other two. Also he had 900 yards his rookie year and 1000 in 13 games his second season.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 03:34 PM
Tell you one thing we have a MUCH brighter future than you guys right now. Only 3 people that are decent I could name off the top my head from your team is Gore your way overpaid CB and Willis

Please. The 49ers have much more talent on both sides of the ball than the Raiders.

Clements isn't overpaid, btw. He is a top 3-5 CB and gets top 3-5 CB money

CC.SD
08-24-2008, 03:43 PM
Please. The 49ers have much more talent on both sides of the ball than the Raiders.

Clements isn't overpaid, btw. He is a top 3-5 CB and gets top 3-5 CB money

I'll take any opportunity to bash teh Raiders but they without question have more potential than the 9ers right now, just by virtue of having a former #1 and D-Mac starting for the first time. Will that potential turn into anything? Who knows.

Bengalsrocket
08-24-2008, 03:50 PM
I think the Raiders have more talent than the 49ers atm, but talent does not all translate into success. We'll see I guess.

GB12
08-24-2008, 04:03 PM
Please. The 49ers have much more talent on both sides of the ball than the Raiders.

Clements isn't overpaid, btw. He is a top 3-5 CB and gets top 3-5 CB money
I couldn't disagree more with that post. Raiders have more talent almost everywhere. And Clements is not a top 3-5 CB. There Raiders have two better than him themselves.

QB: Raiders
RB: 49ers
OL: I'm really not sure, draw?
TE: 49ers
WRs: Raiders
DL: Raiders
LB: Raiders
CB: Raiders
S: Raiders
K: Raiders
P: 49ers

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 04:34 PM
I couldn't disagree more with that post. Raiders have more talent almost everywhere. And Clements is not a top 3-5 CB. There Raiders have two better than him themselves.

QB: Raiders
RB: 49ers
OL: I'm really not sure, draw?
TE: 49ers
WRs: Raiders
DL: Raiders
LB: Raiders
CB: Raiders
S: Raiders
K: Raiders
P: 49ers

I'll admit Asomugha is better than Clements but saying Hall is is a joke. Top to bottom, starters and back-ups, comparison of the 49ers and Raiders

QB: Push - No one knows if either starter will be good or not and all three 49er quarterbacks have looked better than Russell this preseason. I'm giving this a "Push" generously

RB: 49ers- DMC may be talented but the only two backs with more yards from scrimmage than Gore over the past two seasons are LT and Westbrook. I'll take Foster and MRob over Fargas and Bush as well

WR: 49ers- Bruce is better at this point in his career than Walker, Battle is consistent, and the 49ers have more talent in Morgan, Hill, and Bryant Johnson

TE:49ers- I like Zach Miller but Vernon Davis is better and then the 49ers have Delanie Walker giving them two of the most athletic tight ends in the league

OL: 49ers- Our back-up left tackle from last year is starting for the Raiders. The 49ers have better starters and back-ups at every position on the offensive line

DL: Raiders - It is close though. Burgess is good, Kelly is nothing special, and they have no depth. If Ray McDonald and Justin Smith keep up their preseason play, however, the 49ers take this category too. It could easily be a "Push" right now

LB: 49ers- Patrick Willis is an All-Pro and Manny Lawson is already better than anyone they have save Kirk Morrison and still has tons of upside. Add in former starters Spikes and Ulbrich and the 49ers take linebacker easily

CB: Push- Asomugha > Clements > Hall > Harris > Spencer > any other CB the Raiders have.

S: 49ers- Depending on who the 49ers start at FS this could be a push. If they start Roman, push, but if they start Goldson it goes to them. Michael Lewis at SS is better than Gibril Wilson

K: 49ers - Not even close. Janikowski has a big leg but Nedney is much more reliable

P: Push - Lee and Lechler are the two best punters in the league but Lee is young and still improving

Ness
08-24-2008, 04:36 PM
I couldn't disagree more with that post. Raiders have more talent almost everywhere. And Clements is not a top 3-5 CB. There Raiders have two better than him themselves.

QB: Raiders
RB: 49ers
OL: I'm really not sure, draw?
TE: 49ers
WRs: Raiders
DL: Raiders
LB: Raiders
CB: Raiders
S: Raiders
K: Raiders
P: 49ers
Are you joking? Quarterback, wide receivers, corners, and linebackers in Oakland's favor? Please explain yourself.

Even if you believe they have more "talent" it hasn't appeared that way this preseason with the starters.

Bengalsrocket
08-24-2008, 04:36 PM
I couldn't disagree more with that post. Raiders have more talent almost everywhere. And Clements is not a top 3-5 CB. There Raiders have two better than him themselves.

QB: Raiders
RB: 49ers
OL: I'm really not sure, draw?
TE: 49ers
WRs: Raiders
DL: Raiders
LB: Raiders
CB: Raiders
S: Raiders
K: Raiders
P: 49ers

I think 49ers have a better OL, and I don't think the Raiders have a better QB. I think its kind of just a draw between JTO and Russell, neither have done anything significant here. But other than that I think I agree with everything you said. And hopefully Fargas + McFadden = better than Gore after this year, but for now Gore is definitely better.

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 04:43 PM
I think 49ers have a better OL, and I don't think the Raiders have a better QB. I think its kind of just a draw between JTO and Russell, neither have done anything significant here. But other than that I think I agree with everything you said. And hopefully Fargas + McFadden = better than Gore after this year, but for now Gore is definitely better.

Fargas, McFadden and Michael Bush. Not to mention our running game was ranked number 6 last year and we had Fargas and Jordan. The Niners were ranked 27th.

Also, I'm NOT saying Justin Fargas is as good as Gore, but Gore started 15 games and had 1100 rushing yards with 5 TDs... Justin had 7 starts and 1009 yards with 4 TDs...

just saying...

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 04:43 PM
Are you joking? Quarterback, wide receivers, corners, and linebackers in Oakland's favor? Please explain yourself.

Even if you believe they have more "talent" it hasn't appeared that way this preseason with the starters.

Oh, because preseason is a good indicator of anything right?

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 04:44 PM
I couldn't disagree more with that post. Raiders have more talent almost everywhere. And Clements is not a top 3-5 CB. There Raiders have two better than him themselves.

QB: Raiders
RB: 49ers
OL: I'm really not sure, draw?
TE: 49ers
WRs: Raiders
DL: Raiders
LB: Raiders
CB: Raiders
S: Raiders
K: Raiders
P: 49ers

Shane Lechler is the best punter in the NFL. ;)

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 04:45 PM
Please. The 49ers have much more talent on both sides of the ball than the Raiders.

Clements isn't overpaid, btw. He is a top 3-5 CB and gets top 3-5 CB money

Clements isn't really a top 5 cornerback, but the Raiders have TWO top 5 cornerbacks...

CC.SD
08-24-2008, 04:46 PM
Are you joking? Quarterback, wide receivers, corners, and linebackers in Oakland's favor? Please explain yourself.

Even if you believe they have more "talent" it hasn't appeared that way this preseason with the starters.

Raiders easily win at CB, even with Clements across the bay.
Linebackers...it's a draw I'd say. Kirk Morrison is everything you could want in a MLB and Thomas Howard's very nice too. Willis is obviously dominant but no one knows how Smith will transition, plus Manny Lawson needs to prove himself big time.

Wide receivers...ugh. Just ugh on both sides.

And Quarterback is without question in Oakland's favor. Alex Smith just got benched, that won't happen to Jamarcus Russell for at LEAST another 2 years. :D

Brodeur
08-24-2008, 04:50 PM
Are you joking? Quarterback, wide receivers, corners, and linebackers in Oakland's favor? Please explain yourself.

Even if you believe they have more "talent" it hasn't appeared that way this preseason with the starters.

It sure as hell does with the linebackers and corners in the preseason. And as far as talent goes, Russell is much more talented than O'Sullivan or Smith.

Also, Manny Lawson is not better than Thomas Howard (for the one who said Lawson was better than every Oakland LB not named Morrison), Clements is not better than Hall, and Lewis is not even remotely better than Gibril Wilson.

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 04:53 PM
I'll admit Asomugha is better than Clements but saying Hall is is a joke. Top to bottom, starters and back-ups, comparison of the 49ers and Raiders

QB: Push - No one knows if either starter will be good or not and all three 49er quarterbacks have looked better than Russell this preseason. I'm giving this a "Push" generously

RB: 49ers- DMC may be talented but the only two backs with more yards from scrimmage than Gore over the past two seasons are LT and Westbrook. I'll take Foster and MRob over Fargas and Bush as well

WR: 49ers- Bruce is better at this point in his career than Walker, Battle is consistent, and the 49ers have more talent in Morgan, Hill, and Bryant Johnson

TE:49ers- I like Zach Miller but Vernon Davis is better and then the 49ers have Delanie Walker giving them two of the most athletic tight ends in the league

OL: 49ers- Our back-up left tackle from last year is starting for the Raiders. The 49ers have better starters and back-ups at every position on the offensive line

DL: Raiders - It is close though. Burgess is good, Kelly is nothing special, and they have no depth. If Ray McDonald and Justin Smith keep up their preseason play, however, the 49ers take this category too. It could easily be a "Push" right now

LB: 49ers- Patrick Willis is an All-Pro and Manny Lawson is already better than anyone they have save Kirk Morrison and still has tons of upside. Add in former starters Spikes and Ulbrich and the 49ers take linebacker easily

CB: Push- Asomugha > Clements > Hall > Harris > Spencer > any other CB the Raiders have.

S: 49ers- Depending on who the 49ers start at FS this could be a push. If they start Roman, push, but if they start Goldson it goes to them. Michael Lewis at SS is better than Gibril Wilson

K: 49ers - Not even close. Janikowski has a big leg but Nedney is much more reliable

P: Push - Lee and Lechler are the two best punters in the league but Lee is young and still improving

You calling the 9ers defensive backfield better than the Raiders is laughable. That's easily one of the most homeristic posts I've seen. You don't even have a named FS and you already know whoever it is is better than Michael Huff? RRRIIIGHT... You'd choose Foster and Robinson over Fargas and Michael Bush? Please...

Also, how much has your offensive line changed from last year to make it an improvement over our 6th ranked rushing attack?

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 05:06 PM
You calling the 9ers defensive backfield better than the Raiders is laughable. That's easily one of the most homeristic posts I've seen. You don't even have a named FS and you already know whoever it is is better than Michael Huff? RRRIIIGHT... You'd choose Foster and Robinson over Fargas and Michael Bush? Please...

Also, how much has your offensive line changed from last year to make it an improvement over our 6th ranked rushing attack?

I never said Goldson or Roman was better than Huff because I haven't seen him play FS in the NFL. But Michael Lewis was better than Gibril Wilson by enough last year so no matter who the 49ers start at FS they will be at least equal to the Raiders in the defensive backfield.

Not only has the offensive line has changed a lot since last year but the main reason it looked so terrible last year was because Hostler had no idea what he was doing.

Edit: And anyone who thinks Hall is better than Clements doesn't know what they are talking about

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-24-2008, 05:12 PM
QB: Push - No one knows if either starter will be good or not and all three 49er quarterbacks have looked better than Russell this preseason. I'm giving this a "Push" generouslyThe Niners have JT O' Sullivan starting.Enough said.


OL: 49ers- Our back-up left tackle from last year is starting for the Raiders. The 49ers have better starters and back-ups at every position on the offensive line
So Oakland was better than them in both pass blocking and run blocking last year.Kwame Harris is a slight upgrade over Sims.Raiders win again.
LB: 49ers- Patrick Willis is an All-Pro and Manny Lawson is already better than anyone they have save Kirk Morrison and still has tons of upside. Add in former starters Spikes and Ulbrich and the 49ers take linebacker easilyStop being a homer.Lawson has done nothing at all in his career.Howard has easily been far superior to Lawson.
Bottom Line: Raiders have two good LBs.Niners have one.

CB: Push- Asomugha > Clements > Hall > Harris > Spencer > any other CB the Raiders have. Oh please.The Raiders have the best CB tandem in the league.Routt makes a decent starter.Spencer is a good backup at best.


S: 49ers- Depending on who the 49ers start at FS this could be a push. If they start Roman, push, but if they start Goldson it goes to them. Michael Lewis at SS is better than Gibril Wilson
Goldsons played 10 games with zero starts.Hes no where near the player Huff is.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 05:29 PM
The Niners have JT O' Sullivan starting.Enough said.

And the Raiders have Jamarcus Russell, who has never done anything. JTO could turn out like Kurt Warner and Russell could be Akili Smith or JTO could suck while Russell turns into a young Culpepper. Who knows and that is why it is a push. At least the 49ers have Smith who has proven he is an adequate starter even if he never lived up to the 1st overall pick

So Oakland was better than in both pass blocking and run blocking last year.Kwame Harris is a slight upgrade over Sims.Raiders win again.

Like I said, the 49ers whole offense looked terrible last year because Hostler is an idiot. Staley > Harris, Snyder > Gallery, Heitmann > Wade (I think that is who is starting), Jennings > Green, Wragge = Carlisle. And lol at Harris being an upgrade over anyone, he's terrible

Stop being a homer.Lawson has done nothing at all in his career.Howard has easily been far superior to Lawson.

It may be biased but I am basing my opinion of Lawson off of the two games he played before getting hurt last year in which he had 11 tackles, 3 that were for a loss, and his average stop came after 2 yards

Bottom Line: Raiders have two good LBs.Niners have one.

The 49ers have depth and experience, however

Oh please.The Raiders have the best CB tandem in the league.Routt makes a decent starter.Spencer is a good backup at best.

I said I will admit that Asomugha and Hall are a slightly better tandem than Clements and Harris but the 49ers have better depth. Spencer makes a better starter than Routt. Just look at his 2005 season when he was starting.

Goldsons played 10 games with zero starts.Hes no where near the player Huff is.

I didn't say he was. He hasn't gotten his chance to prove if he is better or not

BamaFalcon59
08-24-2008, 05:36 PM
I'll admit Asomugha is better than Clements but saying Hall is is a joke. Top to bottom, starters and back-ups, comparison of the 49ers and Raiders

QB: Push - No one knows if either starter will be good or not and all three 49er quarterbacks have looked better than Russell this preseason. I'm giving this a "Push" generously

RB: 49ers- DMC may be talented but the only two backs with more yards from scrimmage than Gore over the past two seasons are LT and Westbrook. I'll take Foster and MRob over Fargas and Bush as well

WR: 49ers- Bruce is better at this point in his career than Walker, Battle is consistent, and the 49ers have more talent in Morgan, Hill, and Bryant Johnson

TE:49ers- I like Zach Miller but Vernon Davis is better and then the 49ers have Delanie Walker giving them two of the most athletic tight ends in the league

OL: 49ers- Our back-up left tackle from last year is starting for the Raiders. The 49ers have better starters and back-ups at every position on the offensive line

DL: Raiders - It is close though. Burgess is good, Kelly is nothing special, and they have no depth. If Ray McDonald and Justin Smith keep up their preseason play, however, the 49ers take this category too. It could easily be a "Push" right now

LB: 49ers- Patrick Willis is an All-Pro and Manny Lawson is already better than anyone they have save Kirk Morrison and still has tons of upside. Add in former starters Spikes and Ulbrich and the 49ers take linebacker easily

CB: Push- Asomugha > Clements > Hall > Harris > Spencer > any other CB the Raiders have.

S: 49ers- Depending on who the 49ers start at FS this could be a push. If they start Roman, push, but if they start Goldson it goes to them. Michael Lewis at SS is better than Gibril Wilson

K: 49ers - Not even close. Janikowski has a big leg but Nedney is much more reliable

P: Push - Lee and Lechler are the two best punters in the league but Lee is young and still improving

What a homer.

And this is unbiased, coming from a Falcons fan.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 05:38 PM
I'd just like to know what part of it makes me a homer.

Brodeur
08-24-2008, 05:40 PM
Aso/Hall are a SLIGHTLY better tandem than Harris/Clements? Just slightly? Aso/Hall has the potential to be one of the best in the NFL in a long time and Harris/Clements is just an above average tandem.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 05:48 PM
Clements and Harris are always ridiculously underrated. Clements has been playing at a Pro Bowl level since he came into the league and Harris was an All Pro two years ago and has the 3rd most interceptions in the league over the past two seasons. Aso is the 2nd best corner in the league, imo, and Hall is top ten but Clements is top 5 and Harris is pretty damn good

BamaFalcon59
08-24-2008, 05:49 PM
I'll admit Asomugha is better than Clements but saying Hall is is a joke. Top to bottom, starters and back-ups, comparison of the 49ers and Raiders

QB: Push - No one knows if either starter will be good or not and all three 49er quarterbacks have looked better than Russell this preseason. I'm giving this a "Push" generously

RB: 49ers- DMC may be talented but the only two backs with more yards from scrimmage than Gore over the past two seasons are LT and Westbrook. I'll take Foster and MRob over Fargas and Bush as well

WR: 49ers- Bruce is better at this point in his career than Walker, Battle is consistent, and the 49ers have more talent in Morgan, Hill, and Bryant Johnson

This should be a push, considering Josh Morgan (6th round?) is your top wide receiver.

TE:49ers- I like Zach Miller but Vernon Davis is better and then the 49ers have Delanie Walker giving them two of the most athletic tight ends in the league

OL: 49ers- Our back-up left tackle from last year is starting for the Raiders. The 49ers have better starters and back-ups at every position on the offensive line

At best is a push. Your OL looks better on paper, but the Raiders OL produced much more last year.

DL: Raiders - It is close though. Burgess is good, Kelly is nothing special, and they have no depth. If Ray McDonald and Justin Smith keep up their preseason play, however, the 49ers take this category too. It could easily be a "Push" right now

LB: 49ers- Patrick Willis is an All-Pro and Manny Lawson is already better than anyone they have save Kirk Morrison and still has tons of upside. Add in former starters Spikes and Ulbrich and the 49ers take linebacker easily

Let's see. Patrick Willis is a beast. Manny Lawson has a career 2.5 sacks and 68 tackles. He has done nothing. One great LB and three average LBs in a 3-4 is not as good as two very, very good LBs and a average LB in a 4-3.

CB: Push- Asomugha > Clements > Hall > Harris > Spencer > any other CB the Raiders have.

Not a push. Aso is better than Clements, Hall/ Clements is about equal, and the Raiders depth is servicable.

S: 49ers- Depending on who the 49ers start at FS this could be a push. If they start Roman, push, but if they start Goldson it goes to them. Michael Lewis at SS is better than Gibril Wilson

You have to be kidding. Huff is better than any FS you have, Gibril and Lewis is at best (for you guys) a push.

K: 49ers - Not even close. Janikowski has a big leg but Nedney is much more reliable

P: Push - Lee and Lechler are the two best punters in the league but Lee is young and still improving

Lechler is the top punter in the league. Still may be a push, but I would give it to the raiders.


Qb- Raiders by a decent amount
Rb- 49ers by a small amount
WR- Push
OL- Push
DL- Raiders by a bit
LB- Raiders by a small amount b/c of Willis
S- Raiders by a big amount
CB- Raiders by a pretty decent amount
K- 49ers by a large amount

Stash
08-24-2008, 06:01 PM
And the Raiders have Jamarcus Russell, who has never done anything. JTO could turn out like Kurt Warner and Russell could be Akili Smith or JTO could suck while Russell turns into a young Culpepper. Who knows and that is why it is a push. At least the 49ers have Smith who has proven he is an adequate starter even if he never lived up to the 1st overall pick

Like I said, the 49ers whole offense looked terrible last year because Hostler is an idiot. Staley > Harris, Snyder > Gallery, Heitmann > Wade (I think that is who is starting), Jennings > Green, Wragge = Carlisle. And lol at Harris being an upgrade over anyone, he's terrible

It may be biased but I am basing my opinion of Lawson off of the two games he played before getting hurt last year in which he had 11 tackles, 3 that were for a loss, and his average stop came after 2 yards

The 49ers have depth and experience, however

I said I will admit that Asomugha and Hall are a slightly better tandem than Clements and Harris but the 49ers have better depth. Spencer makes a better starter than Routt. Just look at his 2005 season when he was starting.

I didn't say he was. He hasn't gotten his chance to prove if he is better or not

Wow, just wow. I don't even know where to begin.

QB: Neither JTO or Russell have proven anything on the field, but as far as talent goes, it's Russell easily. Only time will tell if that talent turns into success on the field.

OL: Raiders had the 6th best rushing attack with Fargas, Lamont, and Rhodes; none of whom are as talented as Gore individually. That should tell you that the Raiders O-line did a damn good job run blocking last year. Neither team will be anything better than mediocre at pass blocking.

LB: Raiders have 2 studs, Niners have 1 stud. LOL @ you for basing your opinion of Lawson off of 2 GAMES hahahaha. As far as depth and experience goes, the Raiders 2 studs are more experienced than the Niners 1 stud. Neither team really has the kind of depth you would brag about.

DB: Hall and Aso slighty better? You've got to be joking. Slightly would be the understatement of the year because this section isn't even close.
Raiders CB>>>Niners CB
Raiders S>>>Niners S

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 06:02 PM
Qb- Raiders by a decent amount

How? Russell has proven as much as O'Sullivan and who would you rather have as your back-up, Alex Smith or Andre Walter?

Rb- 49ers by a small amount

Right a small amount. The 49ers running backs have averaged a combined 3100 yards per season over the past two years while the Raiders are at 975 per season

WR- Push

Once again how? Just explain to me how the Raiders receivers are even close to the 49ers

OL- Push

Joe Staley, Eric Heitmann, and Jonas Jennings are all better than any of the Raiders offensive linemen

LB- Raiders by a small amount b/c of Willis

If anything this is a push because Willis is the best of the bunch, Lawson was great before he was injured last year, and the 49ers have depth and experience while the Raiders don't

S- Raiders by a big amount

Michael Lewis was better than Gibril Wilson last year no question and we don't know what either Huff or Goldson will do at free safety

CB- Raiders by a pretty decent amount

The Raiders have the better starters by a little bit but 49ers have much more depth

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 06:05 PM
How? Russell has proven as much as O'Sullivan and who would you rather have as your back-up, Alex Smith or Andre Walter?



Right a small amount. The 49ers running backs have averaged a combined 3100 yards per season over the past two years while the Raiders are at 975 per season



Once again how? Just explain to me how the Raiders receivers are even close to the 49ers



Joe Staley, Eric Heitmann, and Jonas Jennings are all better than any of the Raiders offensive linemen



If anything this is a push because Willis is the best of the bunch, Lawson was great before he was injured last year, and the 49ers have depth and experience while the Raiders don't



Michael Lewis was better than Gibril Wilson last year no question and we don't know what either Huff or Goldson will do at free safety



The Raiders have the better starters by a little bit but 49ers have much more depth

You're a homer.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 06:08 PM
Nice reasoning how have there. It is not like I am saying the 49ers are a good team or anything outrageous like that, the most outrageous thing I have said is that the Raiders starting corners are only slightly better than the 49ers, all I am saying is that the 49ers are better than the Raiders at most positions.

Ness
08-24-2008, 06:08 PM
Aso/Hall are a SLIGHTLY better tandem than Harris/Clements? Just slightly? Aso/Hall has the potential to be one of the best in the NFL in a long time and Harris/Clements is just an above average tandem.

DeAngelo Hall gets toasted a lot despite having very good athleticism. Walt Harris and Nate Clements are one of the better corner tandems in the league. Obviously they didn't shine that much last season due to always being on the field and having no pass rush what-so-ever.

Ness
08-24-2008, 06:10 PM
Nice reasoning how have there. It is not like I am saying the 49ers are a good team or anything outrageous like that, the most outrageous thing I have said is that the Raiders starting corners are only slightly better than the 49ers, all I am saying is that the 49ers are better than the Raiders at most positions.

I don't even think they're "better". Hall in my opinion is one of the most overrated players in the NFL.

Ness
08-24-2008, 06:10 PM
Oh, because preseason is a good indicator of anything right?
Well performing bad in preseason isn't helping their case. Especially when playing in simpler schemes.

diabsoule
08-24-2008, 06:11 PM
Comparing the 49ers and Raiders is like comparing crap to vomit. One might have more pieces than the other but they both stink.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 06:11 PM
Comparing the 49ers and Raiders is like comparing crap to vomit. One might be more chunky than the other but they both stink.

Quite possibly the greatest quote ever.

Ness
08-24-2008, 06:14 PM
Fargas, McFadden and Michael Bush. Not to mention our running game was ranked number 6 last year and we had Fargas and Jordan. The Niners were ranked 27th.

Also, I'm NOT saying Justin Fargas is as good as Gore, but Gore started 15 games and had 1100 rushing yards with 5 TDs... Justin had 7 starts and 1009 yards with 4 TDs...

just saying...

The Raiders had more rushing yards because they were much higher in attempts. You should look at average in rushing offense from last year which is the same at 4.1. That's a much better indicator.

BamaFalcon59
08-24-2008, 06:19 PM
DeAngelo Hall gets toasted a lot despite having very good athleticism. Walt Harris and Nate Clements are one of the better corner tandems in the league. Obviously they didn't shine that much last season due to always being on the field and having no pass rush what-so-ever.

Obviously you didn't watch DHall play last year, then.

Oh, and for Abandon's 'how' comments, I did bold in the quote. Ex. for WRs, Josh Morgan is the top threat. Both WR corps are horrible.

Ness
08-24-2008, 06:19 PM
It sure as hell does with the linebackers and corners in the preseason. And as far as talent goes, Russell is much more talented than O'Sullivan or Smith.

Also, Manny Lawson is not better than Thomas Howard (for the one who said Lawson was better than every Oakland LB not named Morrison), Clements is not better than Hall, and Lewis is not even remotely better than Gibril Wilson.

LOL. What about Hall is better than Nate Clements? Getting toasted all the time? Hall's 7.8 YPA last season was the second best of his career. That is ridiculously sad.

Russell may be more talented, but it doesn't mean he's necessarily a better player. He also has to prove himself as well. So you could say that the Raiders have a better starting quarterback when we haven't seen what Russell can do through the course of an entire season. Just as I can't say O'Sullivan is the better player.

Lewis played very well last season with the 49ers. Wilson I don't know how he will fit with Oakland. Hopefully just as effective as he was in New York, but sometimes a new change doesn't always breed success. Good thing it happened with Lewis.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 06:24 PM
Oh, and for Abandon's 'how' comments, I did bold in the quote. Ex. for WRs, Josh Morgan is the top threat. Both WR corps are horrible.

I like what Morgan has done but there is a very good chance he will be the 4th receiver behind Bruce, Battle, and Johnson. He is far from the top threat on the 49ers

BamaFalcon59
08-24-2008, 06:29 PM
LOL. What about Hall is better than Nate Clements? Getting toasted all the time? Hall's 7.8 YPA last season was the second best of his career. That is ridiculously sad.

Russell may be more talented, but it doesn't mean he's necessarily a better player. He also has to prove himself as well. So you could say that the Raiders have a better starting quarterback when we haven't seen what Russell can do through the course of an entire season. Just as I can't say O'Sullivan is the better player.

Lewis played very well last season with the 49ers. Wilson I don't know how he will fit with Oakland. Hopefully just as effective as he was in New York, but sometimes a new change doesn't always breed success. Good thing it happened with Lewis.

Your'e rediculously ignorant. I could care less about what some internet site says, Hall flat out dominated last year. Ask any Falcons fan.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 06:31 PM
And Clements flat out dominated last year. Ask anyone who watched the 49ers play

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-24-2008, 06:38 PM
And Clements flat out dominated last year. Ask anyone who watched the 49ers playThat must explain why the Niners were 16th against #1 WRs last year.

abaddon41_80
08-24-2008, 07:01 PM
That must explain why the Niners were 16th against #1 WRs last year.

Because footballoutsiders' stats are completely subjective and mean very little especially when talking about corners

BamaFalcon59
08-24-2008, 07:10 PM
That must explain why the Niners were 16th against #1 WRs last year.

That may matter for the Raiders, but in the Falcons case there is a right field CB and a left side CB. DHall played LCB from the defenses perspective.

Madirishman
08-24-2008, 07:27 PM
That must explain why the Niners were 16th against #1 WRs last year.

Their D was on the field 80% of the time because the O couldn't sustain drives or control the clock. The D played very well overall and Clements has been worth the money they invested in him thus far.

Watch the Niners D this year. It will be a lot better than people think.....especially those who don't follow the team closely.

Menardo75
08-24-2008, 07:30 PM
It really is a very good unit guess this will all be settled in a couple weeks :)

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 07:39 PM
Well performing bad in preseason isn't helping their case. Especially when playing in simpler schemes.

It certainly isn't helping the Patriots either. Are they bad too?

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 07:40 PM
The Raiders had more rushing yards because they were much higher in attempts. You should look at average in rushing offense from last year which is the same at 4.1. That's a much better indicator.

We run the ball more because we know we can. If you have a good running game, you use it. Teams put 8 players in the box against us because they knew it was coming, yet we did very good.

Menardo75
08-24-2008, 07:57 PM
And it was good but I think the next step is learning how to pass protect then you might have something

Ness
08-24-2008, 08:50 PM
We run the ball more because we know we can. If you have a good running game, you use it. Teams put 8 players in the box against us because they knew it was coming, yet we did very good.

The 49ers were behind in a lot of games, that's why we didn't run the ball. We had to pass to catch up. Of course we would use it if it was effective. Regardless your theory as to why the Raiders rushing attack is immensely better than the 49ers isn't a valid one. More rushing yards doesn't mean more effectiveness.

Ness
08-24-2008, 08:51 PM
It certainly isn't helping the Patriots either. Are they bad too?
Without Tom Brady yes.

Ness
08-24-2008, 08:53 PM
Your'e rediculously ignorant. I could care less about what some internet site says, Hall flat out dominated last year. Ask any Falcons fan.

How is that ignorant? I'm supporting my conclusion with a decent basis. Yards per play. Granted, the Falcons may have not had a great pass rush, but even still Hall has been consistent with that YPA most of his career. That's why I'm not too high on him.

I've watched him play to a fair degree throughout his career. Why would I have to ask any Falcons fan?

Xonraider
08-24-2008, 09:37 PM
The 49ers were behind in a lot of games, that's why we didn't run the ball. We had to pass to catch up. Of course we would use it if it was effective. Regardless your theory as to why the Raiders rushing attack is immensely better than the 49ers isn't a valid one. More rushing yards doesn't mean more effectiveness.

Well, if we want to talk about effectiveness, we had a 4.1 rushing average in 508 attempts.

The 49ers had a 4.1 rushing average in 357 attempts.

So in the effectiveness department, we're equal. And I'm using stats according to your point of view.

BamaFalcon59
08-24-2008, 09:41 PM
How is that ignorant? I'm supporting my conclusion with a decent basis. Yards per play. Granted, the Falcons may have not had a great pass rush, but even still Hall has been consistent with that YPA most of his career. That's why I'm not too high on him.

I've watched him play to a fair degree throughout his career. Why would I have to ask any Falcons fan?

Because you obviously do not know how he performed last year.

Ness
08-24-2008, 10:08 PM
Well, if we want to talk about effectiveness, we had a 4.1 rushing average in 508 attempts.

The 49ers had a 4.1 rushing average in 357 attempts.

So in the effectiveness department, we're equal. And I'm using stats according to your point of view.

Well I'm glad you came to this conclusion that total yardage is not really an important factor. At least with that many attempts from both clubs.

Ness
08-24-2008, 10:09 PM
Because you obviously do not know how he performed last year.

I'm telling you that I don't need to ask any Falcons fan if I already know what I'm talking about.

Iamcanadian
08-24-2008, 11:30 PM
Sorry 49's fans but Smith is a bust while Russdell could still turnout to be a HOFer. The odds in that matter certainly favour the Raiders. The Raiders should take a step forward with about 7 or 8 wins as Russell develops. San Fran on the other hand has a lame duck HC who probably won't last the season. I don't see anyway San Fran brings home more than 4 or 5 wins at best. With Smith's flop, you are pretty well in a rebuild mode until you find a solid QB.

Menardo75
08-25-2008, 12:43 AM
Unless JT plays well or Smith comes in later and plays well of course don't sell anyone out to fast in this league

Ness
08-25-2008, 12:52 AM
Sorry 49's fans but Smith is a bust while Russdell could still turnout to be a HOFer. The odds in that matter certainly favour the Raiders. The Raiders should take a step forward with about 7 or 8 wins as Russell develops. San Fran on the other hand has a lame duck HC who probably won't last the season. I don't see anyway San Fran brings home more than 4 or 5 wins at best. With Smith's flop, you are pretty well in a rebuild mode until you find a solid QB.

LOL. Yeah because every quarterback's fate is decided when they're 24 years old.

BlindSite
08-25-2008, 02:11 AM
Alex Smith receives a lot of unfair hate.

2005
He was a 21 year old rookie playing with very little help from any side of the ball and he clearly floundered. Nolan was a first time head coach, and realistically isn't experienced at developing a quarter back. The running back at this stage was still Kevan Barlow...

2006
Norv Turner comes on board. Alex Smith works every single day he has available with him, and his receivers. The 49ers draft Vernon Davis, they trade Barlow and upgrade Gore to the starting job.

In his first three games he didn't have a turnover and three a three touchdowns he after an average performance against the chiefs he threw 3 TDs in the 5th game.

He engineered a really impressive drive against the seahawks late in the year and single handedly won them the game with 2 excellent passes and a great bootleg in the second half. He even knocked off Denver who were almost in the playoffs.

He might have been under 3,000 yards and had a 1:1 TD to INT ratio, but without an offensive line and still without talent at receiver he did a damn good job for a 2nd year 22 yr old QB.

2007
The 49ers staff stupidly higher Jim Hostler who tries to install a hybrid of the west coast system married with the Turner system. So now rather than continuing with a system in which he began to flourish he has to use elements of one in which he floundered. The team did take some steps to get him some wide receivers in Lelie and Jackson and finally got him some offensive line help.

He engineered a season opening 2 minute drill involving a solo effort on a 25 yard scramble and what should've been a touchdown that was fumbled at the one.

He then got injured against the seahawks and was forced to play in a number of games before he was healed. Note: He didn't fully heal during the season.

Then he gets fired from the job. He's still only 24. He's not really a bust.

Bengalsrocket
08-25-2008, 02:22 AM
Are we going to go through the whole "Alex Smith is not a bust" "Yes he is" argument we seem to have had 3 or 4 times this off season?

Bottom line is right now Alex Smith has been giving several chances to prove he's the QB of that franchise, albeit very unfair chances. His circumstance is unique in the sense that he has not had a consistent O. Coordinator or the best of teams.

There? I'm not Geico so I can't save you money on your car insurance, but I did just save you from a 3 hour debate.

BlindSite
08-25-2008, 03:45 AM
I just hope they release him and we can sign him and bring him along nice and slow for two years.

Dr. Gonzo
08-25-2008, 03:50 AM
I just hope they release him and we can sign him and bring him along nice and slow for two years.

That worked really well with David Carr......

Saints-Tigers
08-25-2008, 04:23 AM
What is Alex Smith's calling card as a player? It seemed like during the draft everyone was hung up at how early he graduated and all that non-sense, but he looks like he's dumb as a brick on the field, lacks elite throw power and accuracy, and is only above average as an athlete.

He really has no tool that sets him apart like most top drafted QB's.

Ness
08-25-2008, 07:01 AM
That worked really well with David Carr......

That's like advocating that the same franchise shouldn't draft a player that was at the same position as the last player that was drafted number one overall but failed, if you have that same pick several years later.

They're not the same player case in point.

Iamcanadian
08-25-2008, 07:35 AM
LOL. Yeah because every quarterback's fate is decided when they're 24 years old.

No their fate is decided by their coaching staff. Martz is brilliant at developing QB's, that's why San Fran hired him. They hoped he could refine Smith and bring out the best in him but that simply failed.
If you cannot play QB for Martz and beat out a career 3rd stringer like O'Sullivan, your future is pretty well doomed IMO and yes, Smith's fate has been decided on when He's 24. He simply cannot get the job done.
The reality is that getting drafted as the #1 prospect or any 1st round pick, gets you the opportunities to start and prove yourself but it means squat as to your ability to play in the NFL. That is something you have to prove when your on the field and Smith failed miserably.
I was a strong supporter of Smith and never wrote him off till this preseason. I thought Martz would succeed and get the best out of Smith and he would finally develop into a solid starter. Face it he failed and I see no way his career will be much more than Carr's, Harrington's and Couch's. Sure he get a couple of more opportunities with other teams, they always do but I think you've seen the last of him as a NFL starter unless injuries force some team to start him.

Menardo75
08-25-2008, 01:56 PM
What is Alex Smith's calling card as a player? It seemed like during the draft everyone was hung up at how early he graduated and all that non-sense, but he looks like he's dumb as a brick on the field, lacks elite throw power and accuracy, and is only above average as an athlete.

He really has no tool that sets him apart like most top drafted QB's.

Yeah runs a high 4.5 and threw it 55mph yeah no physicals tools at all

Menardo75
08-25-2008, 01:58 PM
No their fate is decided by their coaching staff. Martz is brilliant at developing QB's, that's why San Fran hired him. They hoped he could refine Smith and bring out the best in him but that simply failed.
If you cannot play QB for Martz and beat out a career 3rd stringer like O'Sullivan, your future is pretty well doomed IMO and yes, Smith's fate has been decided on when He's 24. He simply cannot get the job done.
The reality is that getting drafted as the #1 prospect or any 1st round pick, gets you the opportunities to start and prove yourself but it means squat as to your ability to play in the NFL. That is something you have to prove when your on the field and Smith failed miserably.
I was a strong supporter of Smith and never wrote him off till this preseason. I thought Martz would succeed and get the best out of Smith and he would finally develop into a solid starter. Face it he failed and I see no way his career will be much more than Carr's, Harrington's and Couch's. Sure he get a couple of more opportunities with other teams, they always do but I think you've seen the last of him as a NFL starter unless injuries force some team to start him.

He just needs more time to digest the system he will get it

Borat
08-25-2008, 02:49 PM
He's pretty worthless unless he can figure out how to lead a receiver instead of throwing it 2 yards behind him. 4 years into the league, I'm sure he should have mastered this by now. I think there's a lot of us Niner fans that just need to get over it. He's no good. We missed. It happens. Time to move on.

CraigNall4MVP
08-25-2008, 04:29 PM
i think dat if the 49ers they signed craignall he wood be an improvment over jt sullivan. he has much better arm n show in green bay hes stud.

Dr. Gonzo
08-25-2008, 04:34 PM
i think dat if the 49ers they signed craignall he wood be an improvment over jt sullivan. he has much better arm n show in green bay hes stud.

The man has a point. If the 49rs can pry away Craig Nall who in my opinion has 1000 times more talent than Aaron Rodgers I foresee a deep playoff run.

CJSchneider
08-25-2008, 04:48 PM
I went to college with Craig Nall. I'd much rather have Rodgers.

Dr. Gonzo
08-25-2008, 04:54 PM
I went to college with Craig Nall. I'd much rather have Rodgers.

That is an insult to the game of Football. Craig Nall never got his chance!!!!

PACKmanN
08-25-2008, 05:05 PM
The man has a point. If the 49rs can pry away Craig Nall who in my opinion has 1000 times more talent than Aaron Rodgers I foresee a deep playoff run.

I guess that makes him a million times better then Travis Jackson.

Ness
08-25-2008, 05:12 PM
No their fate is decided by their coaching staff. Martz is brilliant at developing QB's, that's why San Fran hired him. They hoped he could refine Smith and bring out the best in him but that simply failed.
If you cannot play QB for Martz and beat out a career 3rd stringer like O'Sullivan, your future is pretty well doomed IMO and yes, Smith's fate has been decided on when He's 24. He simply cannot get the job done.
The reality is that getting drafted as the #1 prospect or any 1st round pick, gets you the opportunities to start and prove yourself but it means squat as to your ability to play in the NFL. That is something you have to prove when your on the field and Smith failed miserably.
I was a strong supporter of Smith and never wrote him off till this preseason. I thought Martz would succeed and get the best out of Smith and he would finally develop into a solid starter. Face it he failed and I see no way his career will be much more than Carr's, Harrington's and Couch's. Sure he get a couple of more opportunities with other teams, they always do but I think you've seen the last of him as a NFL starter unless injuries force some team to start him.
That's like saying someone is going to be right every single time they have a chance to do something. In this case Martz. And that simply isn't true. Just because you don't succeed with Mike Martz doesn't mean your career is over.

But it seems like you already have your mind made up about the issue even though I don't believe there's enough evidence to write him off just yet. So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

Ness
08-25-2008, 05:14 PM
He's pretty worthless unless he can figure out how to lead a receiver instead of throwing it 2 yards behind him. 4 years into the league, I'm sure he should have mastered this by now. I think there's a lot of us Niner fans that just need to get over it. He's no good. We missed. It happens. Time to move on.
He may still be recovering from his shoulder injury. He wasn't making throws like that back in 2006, and there is no way he would have been able to complete the percentage of passes he did that season or have some of the completion percentage in some of the games he had.

Dr. Gonzo
08-25-2008, 05:15 PM
That's like advocating that the same franchise shouldn't draft a player that was at the same position as the last player that was drafted number one overall but failed, if you have that same pick several years later.

They're not the same player case in point.

I was just pointing out that I am sure he was saying the exact same thing when the Panthers brought in David Carr. I personally have always liked Alex Smith and I think he has never really been given a fair shot. He is still young so I would not label him a bust quite yet but I mean c'mon, does Blindsite need to bring up the Panthers every post?

Borat
08-25-2008, 05:15 PM
He may still be recovering from his shoulder injury. He wasn't making throws like that back in 2006, and there is no way he would have been able to complete the percentage of passes he did that season or have some of the completion percentage in some of the games he had.

Those are what we call .... Alexcuses. I'm tired of them. He shouldn't be in the game if he can't hit an open receiver. This is a pretty simple concept.

awfullyquiet
08-25-2008, 05:36 PM
I was just pointing out that I am sure he was saying the exact same thing when the Panthers brought in David Carr. I personally have always liked Alex Smith and I think he has never really been given a fair shot. He is still young so I would not label him a bust quite yet but I mean c'mon, does Blindsite need to bring up the Panthers every post?



Agreed. His bad habits may go as far as he does. He's not 'done' for yet. But he is done for in san francisco. I can actually see him going to the panthers (if they do well this year as an heir to delhomme). or some other team behind veteran qb's, and will get a shot again in a few years.

But. You're right gonz... does blindsite really have to bring up the panthers in every post?

Ness
08-25-2008, 05:56 PM
Those are what we call .... Alexcuses. I'm tired of them. He shouldn't be in the game if he can't hit an open receiver. This is a pretty simple concept.
Heh, umm...okay? Well I'm not going to play immature games and using amusing descriptions to validate my argument or to negate yours. I simply gave my opinion on why I think he's not doing well. If you don't like my opinion then so be it.

Borat
08-25-2008, 06:05 PM
Heh, umm...okay? Well I'm not going to play immature games and using amusing descriptions to validate my argument or to negate yours. I simply gave my opinion on why I think he's not doing well. If you don't like my opinion then so be it.

Cry me a river. HAHA. Couldn't resist.

Ness
08-25-2008, 09:07 PM
Cry me a river. HAHA. Couldn't resist.
I don't get the terrible comeback, but okay. ^.~

CraigNall4MVP
08-25-2008, 11:03 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/craignall/profile?id=NAL385627

craig nall has never thrown a interecption.... ever

GB12
08-25-2008, 11:10 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/craignall/profile?id=NAL385627

craig nall has never thrown a interecption.... ever
He also has a TD:Pass Attempt ratio that is nearly double that of Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's.

Twiddler
08-25-2008, 11:11 PM
He also has a TD:Pass Attempt ratio that is nearly double that of Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's.

Yep, I'm sold. He's obviously the best ever to play the game.

Saints-Tigers
08-25-2008, 11:18 PM
Yeah runs a high 4.5 and threw it 55mph yeah no physicals tools at all

I don't think I said "he has no physical tools."

He ran a 4.71 officially, and he's not elite in terms of arm strength or accuracy, and he's as football smart as a bucket of shrimp. I'm not seeing the allure here, he has no outstanding feature that makes him worth so many excuses and second chances, he's a decent QB prospect with a huge paycheck, that's about all.

CraigNall4MVP
08-25-2008, 11:19 PM
He also has a TD:Pass Attempt ratio that is nearly double that of Peyton Manning's and Tom Brady's.

dont even grace the names of tehse wanabes with a great 1 liek craig nall

Dr. Gonzo
08-25-2008, 11:24 PM
http://www.nfl.com/players/craignall/profile?id=NAL385627

craig nall has never thrown a interecption.... ever

Those are some damn impressive stats. What the hell were the idiots who run the Packers thinking drafting Aaron Rodgers and waiting this long to trade Brett Favre.

Mr.Regular
08-26-2008, 12:25 AM
Yep, I'm sold. He's obviously the best ever to play the game.
FALSE
http://bp2.blogger.com/_OGWTdZXIk8o/RxjM58Pl9iI/AAAAAAAAB8U/TjEJ3qiQYzc/s400/jim+sorgi.jpg

BlindSite
08-26-2008, 01:20 AM
I was just pointing out that I am sure he was saying the exact same thing when the Panthers brought in David Carr. I personally have always liked Alex Smith and I think he has never really been given a fair shot. He is still young so I would not label him a bust quite yet but I mean c'mon, does Blindsite need to bring up the Panthers every post?

You're kidding me right, I post everything there is to say on a player and all you focus on is I'd want him on my team.

When Carr came to the team I said it was a new chance for him and it was time to see how he went with some stability and time. He failed, miserably. When given a good surrounding cast and a good coach above him Alex Smith played well. Big difference there.

Try to think before you post.

TyronePoole38
08-26-2008, 11:55 AM
Alex Smith is the worst QB ever and the 49ers should be ashamed to have drafted him. He's the worst #1 draft pick in any sport. Alex Smith sucks, how do you lose a job to an unknown when you're the #1 overall pick. The 49ers must love being sucky.


Wow....if you think he is the worst QB ever you haven't watched a lot of football.

Menardo75
08-26-2008, 02:56 PM
Alex Smith is the worst QB ever and the 49ers should be ashamed to have drafted him. He's the worst #1 draft pick in any sport. Alex Smith sucks, how do you lose a job to an unknown when you're the #1 overall pick. The 49ers must love being sucky.

Yeah really you must have never seen Spurgeon Wynn

BlindSite
08-26-2008, 05:04 PM
Yeah really you must have never seen Spurgeon Wynn

I liked watching the Detmer's play in preseason games. They looked more like punters than QBs.

Menardo75
08-26-2008, 06:31 PM
I liked watching the Detmer's play in preseason games. They looked more like punters than QBs.

Almost as good as Doug Peterson almost

Larry
08-26-2008, 10:24 PM
The Raiders do not have a better offensive line then the Niners. Anyone starting Kwame Harris at left tackle I actually feel sorry for.

The Niners Wr's are also a lot better. When Ronald Curry is arguably your best Wr, they're really is nothing to debate.

The only area the Raiders are clear cut better then Niners is in the secondary, that's all.

BlindSite
08-26-2008, 10:37 PM
I'd give the raiders linebacker also.

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-27-2008, 12:25 AM
The Raiders do not have a better offensive line then the Niners. Anyone starting Kwame Harris at left tackle I actually feel sorry for.This is a common argument brought up by Niner fans but it has no credibility to it.Is Kwame Harris bad?Sure.Is he an upgrade over Sims?Certainly.When both Sims and Harris were playing LT at the same time their pass protection stats were extremely similar.The difference being that Harris is better at run blocking and doesnt false start as much.
I fail to see how the Niners have a superior Oline because we signed Harris.Especially since harris is an upgrade over Sims and hes going into a system that fits him better than the system he was currently in.Furthermore Oakland was better in both run blocking and pass blocking than the Niners were last year and will be in the same system with the same coaches for a second year.

abaddon41_80
08-27-2008, 08:28 AM
This is a common argument brought up by Niner fans but it has no credibility to it.Is Kwame Harris bad?Sure.Is he an upgrade over Sims?Certainly.When both Sims and Harris were playing LT at the same time their pass protection stats were extremely similar.The difference being that Harris is better at run blocking and doesnt false start as much.
I fail to see how the Niners have a superior Oline because we signed Harris.Especially since harris is an upgrade over Sims and hes going into a system that fits him better than the system he was currently in.

Harris is not better than Sims. He may be a good run blocker but he is an awful pass blocker, arguably the worst starting offensive lineman in the league when it comes to pas blocking, and he makes so many mistakes. He false starts at least once of twice a game and he regularly gets good plays called back with a useless holding call.

Furthermore Oakland was better in both run blocking and pass blocking than the Niners were last year and will be in the same system with the same coaches for a second year.

Not only has the 49ers line greatly improved since last year but it is easy to argue that last year the Raiders offensive line wasn't even better than the 49ers. While the Raiders had more rushing yards they still had the same yards per carry as the 49ers. The Raiders had 150 more rushing attempts and only 3 more rushing touchdowns and 4 more runs of 20+ yards.

And while the Raiders allowed 14 less sacks than the 49ers they also dropped back to pass 60 less times. The 49ers also got rid of Justin Smiley, who allowed at least 10 sacks in his 8 games, and Trent "The Statue" Dilfer isn't going to be back there anymore.

CC.SD
08-27-2008, 09:31 AM
Harris is the biggest turnstile I've ever seen, he's going to get Jamarcus hurt.

Larry
08-27-2008, 12:27 PM
Harris is not better than Sims. He may be a good run blocker but he is an awful pass blocker, arguably the worst starting offensive lineman in the league when it comes to pas blocking, and he makes so many mistakes. He false starts at least once of twice a game and he regularly gets good plays called back with a useless holding call.



Not only has the 49ers line greatly improved since last year but it is easy to argue that last year the Raiders offensive line wasn't even better than the 49ers. While the Raiders had more rushing yards they still had the same yards per carry as the 49ers. The Raiders had 150 more rushing attempts and only 3 more rushing touchdowns and 4 more runs of 20+ yards.

And while the Raiders allowed 14 less sacks than the 49ers they also dropped back to pass 60 less times. The 49ers also got rid of Justin Smiley, who allowed at least 10 sacks in his 8 games, and Trent "The Statue" Dilfer isn't going to be back there anymore.

No more Larry Allen also who gave up 8 sacks last season and is the main reason Alex's shoulder got snapped like a twig.

Borat
08-27-2008, 12:30 PM
I don't know why people think Kwame doesn't false start. I was LMFAO when he got into the game against Minnesota last year. He pretty much jumped every time and the refs just let it go cause the score was so out of hand. It was like he knew he hadn't played at all last year and was eager to false start the instant he saw any game action.

CC.SD
08-27-2008, 01:39 PM
I don't know why people think Kwame doesn't false start. I was LMFAO when he got into the game against Minnesota last year. He pretty much jumped every time and the refs just let it go cause the score was so out of hand. It was like he knew he hadn't played at all last year and was eager to false start the instant he saw any game action.

LOL, hey at least the man's got a mission...

doingthisinsteadofwork
08-27-2008, 06:19 PM
Harris is not better than Sims. He may be a good run blocker but he is an awful pass blocker, arguably the worst starting offensive lineman in the league when it comes to pas blocking, and he makes so many mistakes. He false starts at least once of twice a game and he regularly gets good plays called back with a useless holding call.You obviously havent watched many if any Raider games if you think Harris is worse than Sims.They are about equal in terms of pass protection.
The difference between Harris and Sims is Harris is a 1st round bust and Sims was a UFDA.Is Harris a bigger dissapointment?Certainly.A worse player?Theres no evidence to support him being worse than Sims especially when it comes to pass protection.



Not only has the 49ers line greatly improved since last year but it is easy to argue that last year the Raiders offensive line wasn't even better than the 49ers. While the Raiders had more rushing yards they still had the same yards per carry as the 49ers. The Raiders had 150 more rushing attempts and only 3 more rushing touchdowns and 4 more runs of 20+ yards.
I'm sorry I didnt know the regular season had begun already.
You've completely contradicted yourself when discussing Oaklands run game.
And while the Raiders allowed 14 less sacks than the 49ers they also dropped back to pass 60 less times. The 49ers also got rid of Justin Smiley, who allowed at least 10 sacks in his 8 games, and Trent "The Statue" Dilfer isn't going to be back there anymore.So if we dropped back 60 more times we still wouldn't have given up as many sacks as the Niners did.

abaddon41_80
08-27-2008, 07:08 PM
You obviously havent watched many if any Raider games if you think Harris is worse than Sims.They are about equal in terms of pass protection.
The difference between Harris and Sims is Harris is a 1st round bust and Sims was a UFDA.Is Harris a bigger dissapointment?Certainly.A worse player?Theres no evidence to support him being worse than Sims especially when it comes to pass protection.

It's okay to think Harris is better than Sims but I think most outside observers would disagree

I'm sorry I didnt know the regular season had begun already.

Who said it had? The 49ers line is obviously better because last preseason they gave up 13 sacks and this preseason they have given up only two. Now you can't base a lot off of the preseason but it is usually a pretty good indicator of improvement

You've completely contradicted yourself when discussing Oaklands run game.

How?

So if we dropped back 60 more times we still wouldn't have given up as many sacks as the Niners did.

True but you must have missed the part about Trent Dilfer being the quarterback for most of the season

D-Unit
08-27-2008, 07:11 PM
It's better for Alex's career for him to sit and learn.

GB12
08-27-2008, 07:14 PM
It's better for Alex's career for him to sit and learn.
How do you figure that?

smittyjs
08-27-2008, 07:16 PM
I still think smith can be a good QB, i liked him coming out of college and will stick with it, give him a another year under martz and he will earn the starting job.

BlindSite
08-27-2008, 10:18 PM
Just because Sullivan is named the starter doesn't mean he will be by week 16 I suppose.

Menardo75
08-27-2008, 11:03 PM
Yeah who knows what will happen. I would be happy with decent Qb play with anyone