PDA

View Full Version : The Giants....are we being unfair?


DMWSackMachine
09-06-2008, 06:17 PM
I know I've been in the camp that they were a) not that good last year, as their 10-6 record would indicate, b) got hot at the right time and c) would take a small step back this year with the defection of Strahan and Shockey, which was later compounded by losing Osi for the year.

All told, I was seeing a 8 or 9 wins, with a decent shot at reaching 10 again and like a 50-50 chance at the playoffs.

However, now that we have seen them in action for the first time.....do we need to re-evaluate? They looked very strong along both lines against the Skins, and their run game was terrific. Jacobs looks strong as always, even though injuries are always the big question with him, and Eli was composed and sharp for the first half at least. They have questions on the back end defensively, but most teams have something like that they are dealing with.

So, should we give the Giants more credit here as a potential 11 or 12 win team that might be legitimately in the NFC mix, is this a case of us not realizing the Redskins are really, really bad, or is it all just too much reading into one game?

Obviously one game does not tell the whole story of a team. Last year should have taught us that if we didn't have it down pat yet. But I personally saw enough to warrant a little bit of a second look. Thoughts?

Addict
09-06-2008, 06:24 PM
well they looked the part against the Skins, but then again I'm not really convinced the skins are in such good shape right now. The giants will probably win about 10-11 games this year, and that's about where they deserve to be.

Malaka
09-06-2008, 06:25 PM
I agree, I guess you can say because I am a Giants fan but say what you want other than Eli (and terrible Red-Zone play calling) the whole team was excellent. I can easily see 11-12 wins for the Giants, that'd make for a great NFC East division fight between the Cowboys and the Giants, both can go 12-4 IMO. If Eli can just be the Eli he was in the playoffs the Giants will have a great year. Tuck looked great, Burress was just playing with kindergardeners, Jacobs is just an unstoppable force, Eli looked good in the first half, and the secondary looks much improved, while the LB corp. is probably average at beast, but Gerris has potential, Danny Clark might surprise some people, and we know what we are getting with Antonio Pierce so it isn't all that weak. Boss was solid, and the O-line looked great all-around in the run and pass block. Eli needs to stay consistent, we need to pray Kiwi doesn't get injured, Danny Clark, Gerris Wilkinson, James Butler need to step up, the offense needs to do what they did last night, and the Tuck needs to be Tuck, and we can be a great team.

DMWSackMachine
09-06-2008, 06:28 PM
Obviously this question is addressed to those--whether they be a Giant fan or not--who were previously at least a little bit skeptical about them as a legit contender in the NFC this year. FYI

Addict
09-06-2008, 06:28 PM
I agree, I guess you can say because I am a Giants fan but say what you want other than Eli (and terrible Red-Zone play calling) the whole team was excellent. I can easily see 11-12 wins for the Giants, that'd make for a great NFC East division fight between the Cowboys and the Giants, both can go 12-4 IMO. If Eli can just be the Eli he was in the playoffs the Giants will have a great year. Tuck looked great, Burress was just playing with kindergardeners, Jacobs is just an unstoppable force, Eli looked good in the first half, and the secondary looks much improved, while the LB corp. is probably average at beast, but Gerris has potential, Danny Clark might surprise some people, and we know what we are getting with Antonio Pierce so it isn't all that weak. Boss was solid, and the O-line looked great all-around in the run and pass block. Eli needs to stay consistent, we need to pray Kiwi doesn't get injured, Danny Clark, Gerris Wilkinson, James Butler need to step up, the offense needs to do what they did last night, and the Tuck needs to be Tuck, and we can be a great team.

I like how you combine 'best' and 'least' there, very clever. ;)

Since I don't see a whole lot of games, could someone please tell me where the Skins are strong? I didn't see a whole lot go well, and it seemed almost like they're just avarage at every position except running back and strong safety.

Basileus777
09-06-2008, 06:31 PM
I think its the Skins who need to be reevaluated. They looked like the 2007 Chiefs in that game.

DMWSackMachine
09-06-2008, 06:37 PM
I think its the Skins who need to be reevaluated. They looked like the 2007 Chiefs in that game.

*giggle* :D

Iamcanadian
09-06-2008, 06:41 PM
Practically every team that won its 1st SB also won its opening game the next season, and then the screws came off and most of them floundered the rest of the year.
So no, I don't think we are being tough on the Giants, they will be extremely lucky to make the playoffs.

Yatta!
09-06-2008, 08:06 PM
As good as the Giants looked, the Skins looked poor and the scoreline was hardly too convincing.

CashmoneyDrew
09-06-2008, 08:13 PM
The skins looked pitiful and the Giants only beat them by nine at home. I think they'll win 9 games and get put out in the first round of the playoffs. They just lost too many players from last season.

leroyisgod
09-06-2008, 08:15 PM
It's difficult to judge a team by their first game. Every expert will tell you not too get too caught up after a team's first game.

MetSox17
09-06-2008, 08:34 PM
I know I've been in the camp that they were a) not that good last year, as their 10-6 record would indicate, b) got hot at the right time and c) would take a small step back this year with the defection of Strahan and Shockey, which was later compounded by losing Osi for the year.

All told, I was seeing a 8 or 9 wins, with a decent shot at reaching 10 again and like a 50-50 chance at the playoffs.

However, now that we have seen them in action for the first time.....do we need to re-evaluate? They looked very strong along both lines against the Skins, and their run game was terrific. Jacobs looks strong as always, even though injuries are always the big question with him, and Eli was composed and sharp for the first half at least. They have questions on the back end defensively, but most teams have something like that they are dealing with.

So, should we give the Giants more credit here as a potential 11 or 12 win team that might be legitimately in the NFC mix, is this a case of us not realizing the Redskins are really, really bad, or is it all just too much reading into one game?

Obviously one game does not tell the whole story of a team. Last year should have taught us that if we didn't have it down pat yet. But I personally saw enough to warrant a little bit of a second look. Thoughts?

There's no need to re-evaluate your opinion. You seem to have it down pretty well.

vidae
09-06-2008, 09:08 PM
I would consider the Giants an 11 or 12 win team but their offense sort of sputtered after the first half against a Redskins team that wasn't playing very well defensively. They probably should have put up more than 16.

However, the Giants will make the playoffs. I'm not sold on another SB berth just yet, but this is a team with a lot of talent on both sides of the football. They will make the playoffs in 2008.

giantsfan
09-06-2008, 10:43 PM
The giants have played to the level of their opponents for a few years now. We don't blow many teams out, but we play better teams very tough. You can expect that to continue this season. Overall I'm expecting 10-11 wins and maybe a playoff win, but I'd be very surprised if we made back to the superbowl or even the NFC title game without someone just going completely insane during this season and beasting out, like Tuck last year.

Race for the Heisman
09-06-2008, 10:53 PM
I agree with Basileus. The Giants weren't bad on whole but the offense goes with Eli and he was spotty. The defense had very little challenge from the Redskins. I originally thought the Giants would win 8 games, give or take one, and I stand by that.

giantsfan
09-06-2008, 11:15 PM
I agree with Basileus. The Giants weren't bad on whole but the offense goes with Eli and he was spotty. The defense had very little challenge from the Redskins. I originally thought the Giants would win 8 games, give or take one, and I stand by that.

Umm, our offense is built around our running game. Eli and the passing attack is there to balance it out and drive down for quick scores late in games. Things Eli has been very successful at his entire career, keeping teams honest on D and delivering in the clutch.

Dam8610
09-07-2008, 12:40 AM
I think its the Skins who need to be reevaluated. They looked like the 2007 Chiefs in that game.

What's shocking is that people are surprised by this.

Dam8610
09-07-2008, 12:42 AM
Every expert will get too caught up after a team's first game.

Fixed (that is if you were talking about the talking heads on TV people call "experts")

Caddy
09-07-2008, 01:05 AM
They defeated the Redskins, and definitely looked good, but I was never high on the Redskins to begin with. I think when evaluating a team you really have to wait about a month into the season before you can start to say, 'hey we were wrong about so and so'.

CrackerJack465
09-07-2008, 11:23 PM
I don't understand why everyoen thinks the Giants will suck so bad this year.

A sub-par safety in Gibrol Wilson who they replaced with Kenny Phillips.
Osi was an injury, but Tuck is better then Osi.
They replaced Strahan with Kiwi.. Kiwi is gonna have a great year.
Kawika Mitchell was.. alright... Decent starter
And reggie torbor was on the way out anyway..

IMO there only big loss was Osi, but Tuck will be ok. The defense will still dominate. The offense is completely intact.

giantsfan
09-08-2008, 08:21 AM
I don't understand why everyoen thinks the Giants will suck so bad this year.

A sub-par safety in Gibrol Wilson who they replaced with Kenny Phillips.
Osi was an injury, but Tuck is better then Osi.
They replaced Strahan with Kiwi.. Kiwi is gonna have a great year.
Kawika Mitchell was.. alright... Decent starter
And reggie torbor was on the way out anyway..

IMO there only big loss was Osi, but Tuck will be ok. The defense will still dominate. The offense is completely intact.

Tuck isn't better than osi, more versatile yes, better matchup yes, but not better player. Hopefully Alford will be effective as an interior pass rusher and we either have someone step up on the outside so Tuck can move to UT or someone like Wynn is able to excell as that pass rushing UT with Tuck outside.

Smooth Criminal
09-08-2008, 08:25 AM
Giants looked good still. Eli still played inconsistent and threw some potential INTs but he looked like he needed more time with his receivers.

The defense was everyones question. Would the pass rush be as good without Strahan and Osi, looked like it. The defense had a great game, but Washington's offense was completely inept.

Lets see what they do over the next couple weeks.

giantsfan
09-08-2008, 08:33 AM
Giants looked good still. Eli still played inconsistent and threw some potential INTs but he looked like he needed more time with his receivers.

The defense was everyones question. Would the pass rush be as good without Strahan and Osi, looked like it. The defense had a great game, but Washington's offense was completely inept.

Lets see what they do over the next couple weeks.

I was most impressed by our run D, it could've been washington's once potent oline going to **** for this season, but our run d was so much better than last year's and a lot of that is on the DTs who looked good in the middle.

RaiderNation
09-08-2008, 08:55 AM
They looked... like a superbowl champ that game, which they are. Giants will go 11-5 as the first wildcard team

NY+Giants=NYG
09-08-2008, 09:26 AM
As long we make the playoffs I don't care what our record is.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-08-2008, 09:31 AM
Nothing is unfair, this is what comes with being a super bowl champ. You are expected to be as good as last year and if your are not, it's labeled failure, fair or not that is the reality of being a defending super bowl champion, and a big reason why so few teams actually repeat success. Although with all of their injuries and "people doubting them" I could see why they would want to use it as a tool of motivation, and I'm completely fine with that. Most teams use the me against the world mentality even if it's not true, but hey if developing in your mind that you are disrespected makes you play better, than I'm all for it. But yeah the Skins team they beat is a 7 win team at best, which would come to no surprised, as basically every media outlet and myself included chose them to finish dead last in the division.

Smooth Criminal
09-08-2008, 09:55 AM
As the Steelers and Giants have proven over the past 3 seasons, anything can happen when your in the playoffs.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2008, 11:32 AM
Its too early to say anything really, but Ive always felt that the Giants were capable of making the playoffs. With Osi, I was thinking we could repeat, but now my expectations have been reduced to making the playoffs.

With Osi, I felt we wouldve easily had a top 3 defense in the league. The pressure we were getting off the line was out of this world, and what most are forgetting is that we actually upgraded our defense over the offseason.

however, with Osi gone now, I think our defense can be as good as last year only, but at the same time, different from last year.


Things ive noticed out of our defense so far is that our front doesn't produce as much pressure as it used to (obviously), and we're trying to make up for it with more blitzing. Even then, its not as dominant as it was when Osi was healthy in the PS. However, where we improved to make up for this is in our secondary actually.

Our coverage this year is much improved compared to last year. Wilkinson is easily better than Mitchell in coverage out of the LB spot, Ross is better in year 2, Webster looks like he's holding his playoff form, we added Terrell Thomas in the draft who looks like a keeper, and Kenny Phillips is an upgrade over Wilson. However, we still have one HUGE concern in our pass coverage: James Butler. He's terrible. The worst starting SS in the league easily. Im hoping and praying we bench him and put Phillips and Johnson as our starters, but who knows.

Also, our run defense is significantly better this year than last year. Last year our run defense was very average, in particular up the middle. But our DTs have really elevated their game and got their bodies adjusted to Spags system, and our run defense is significantly better because of it. We force a lot of 3rd and longs, and then bring pressure on those downs.

Still however, you live with the blitz, you die with the blitz, and the loss of Osi is going to hurt us if we make the postseason. Our defense is based up front, everything we do starts with what we do up front pressure wise, and our defense is built upon a 3 DE front. Unless we find magic in a box and find that 3rd pressure guy from somewhere, our defense will take a hit because of it.


Offensively, I have some concerns as well. It looks like we brought back the option routes, which im strongly against. You saw the confusion the option routes brought in week 1, when Eli and his WRs weren't on the same page. Also, Steve Smith and Amani Toomer both didnt do a great job of getting open. In fact, the only guy who got open all night was Burress.

And this is why that scares me. As great as our run game is, our pass game has some major question marks.

1. Our pass protection is overrated, its not top 5 like Madden was saying, its good but not great. Eli makes it look better than it is.
2. We lack explosion on offense. With the loss of Shockey, teams aren't affraid of anyone outside of Burress. And you saw in the 2nd half, you just have to double up Burress, and press the rest of our guys on the line and blitz hard, and that will negate our offense for the most part in the pass game. Outside of Burress, we lack a playmaker who can punish the press coverage and make explosive plays down the field. With Shockey gone, defenses don't have to worry about the seam anymore when the TE and Burress are lined up on the same side.


Which worries me. In the playoffs the Giants incorporated a pass game built on short passes and no option routes to manage and move the ball down the field. It looks like we're going back to the same old bullcrap of vertical passing and option routes that our offense struggles with. If thats the case, our offense will revert back to its old form. And we can't afford that with our defense taking a huge loss.

Call me skeptical, but right here right now, Im just gonna wait it out and see what happens. I have confidence in the Giants, but my main concerns as of right now are the playcalling on offense, and the pass rush on defense.

Jughead10
09-08-2008, 12:57 PM
At St. Louis this week and then home against Cincinnati. That is all I care about right now. I'd say most would agree the Giants are likely to win both of these games. Both of those teams look pathetic. 3-0 heading into the crappy early bye week, and I couldn't be happier.

keylime_5
09-08-2008, 01:42 PM
New York probably won't as many games as they should this year b/c of their division and their schedule. Philadelphia and Dallas looked ridiculously good yesterday and NY still looks like their old playoff selves. I think they have a great shot at winning a wildcard spot even after losing their 2 best defenders in Osi and Strahan. I've been on the Justin Tuck bandwagon since he came out of Notre Dame, he's a monster. I think New York wins 9.

Number 10
09-08-2008, 02:13 PM
The only issue within the Giants team right now is depth on the defensive side of the ball. I have to go right now but will be back o discuss it more if need be.

The Giants depth on the defensive line and at linebacker was the most overlooked reason the Giants were so strong late in the season. That depth isn't there this season.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2008, 02:34 PM
Hopefully, the Giants can beat the Rams and Bengals, but nothing is guaranteed in this league, so i don't want to jump the gun.


As for our depth, I think we're still deep at LB. Although Im not a very big Kehl fan. I think he's very average. I much rather have Chase out there. And hopefully Goff can get healthy by halfway through the season.

DeOssie and Kehl look like JAGs to me. I see nothing special in either of them so far.

Malaka
09-08-2008, 03:07 PM
Hopefully, the Giants can beat the Rams and Bengals, but nothing is guaranteed in this league, so i don't want to jump the gun.


As for our depth, I think we're still deep at LB. Although Im not a very big Kehl fan. I think he's very average. I much rather have Chase out there. And hopefully Goff can get healthy by halfway through the season.

DeOssie and Kehl look like JAGs to me. I see nothing special in either of them so far.

Yeah, I am not a huge Kehl fan I also think he is extremely average, and will probably be a good backup in the league but nothing more, too early to tell but that is my opinion.

On the other hand, from what I have seen in college and heard from camp reports I think Goff is a legit successor to Antonio Pierce, but once again it is still too early to tell.

bigbluedefense
09-08-2008, 03:13 PM
Yeah, I am not a huge Kehl fan I also think he is extremely average, and will probably be a good backup in the league but nothing more, too early to tell but that is my opinion.

On the other hand, from what I have seen in college and heard from camp reports I think Goff is a legit successor to Antonio Pierce, but once again it is still too early to tell.

I like Goff a lot. I want him as our starting SAM as of right now, and would like him to eventually replace Pierce at MIKE.

We stole Goff (if he recovers 100% from his injury)

giantsfan
09-08-2008, 04:13 PM
Which worries me. In the playoffs the Giants incorporated a pass game built on short passes and no option routes to manage and move the ball down the field. It looks like we're going back to the same old bullcrap of vertical passing and option routes that our offense struggles with. If thats the case, our offense will revert back to its old form. And we can't afford that with our defense taking a huge loss.

I know he won us a superbowl but i still hate kevin gilbride, this is what he wants to do and I was so shocked when he changed things up for the playoffs last year. I was hoping he'd see the success he had with the shorter passing game and stick to it but his old ass just has to go back to the vertical passing strategy of grandmaster killdrive. I really hope he's fired after this season and we get an OC who actually builds his scheme for the personnel he has, not the personnel he wishes he had, this is also part of why I was actually hoping coughlin would retire and spags would move up to HC, he wouldn't have this man love for killdrive that coughlin does.[/RANT]

luee
09-08-2008, 07:06 PM
or two early for the SB camp. The team is improved on offense by the subtraction of distraction Shockey and some depth at WR. The defense will miss Osi but Spags can coach. Looks like two great draft classes in a row. Up there in the NFC with the Boys.

NY+Giants=NYG
09-09-2008, 12:10 AM
I agree.. I know we won with Gilbride, but some of his playcalling is soo odd. We were dominating the trenches against the skins, and dumb dumb has eli throwing 35 plus times! WTF??! Run all 3 backs, Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw until they stop them consistently! Gilbride did stuff like this last season too!

giantsfan
09-09-2008, 11:34 AM
I agree.. I know we won with Gilbride, but some of his playcalling is soo odd. We were dominating the trenches against the skins, and dumb dumb has eli throwing 35 plus times! WTF??! Run all 3 backs, Jacobs, Ward, and Bradshaw until they stop them consistently! Gilbride did stuff like this last season too!

And then he started to change once we got close to the playoffs and worked incredibly...I'm just going to stop talking about Killdrive because he's so frustrating. Unlike Hufnagel he's not the worst OC ever, he just keeps trying to do what he wants to do instead of what his personnel is best fitted to do.

NY+Giants=NYG
09-09-2008, 11:41 AM
And then he started to change once we got close to the playoffs and worked incredibly...I'm just going to stop talking about Killdrive because he's so frustrating. Unlike Hufnagel he's not the worst OC ever, he just keeps trying to do what he wants to do instead of what his personnel is best fitted to do.

Even the Skins fans sitting by me during the game, wondered why we stopped running the ball. It was fun, because they were cool, but it was like watching a slow death. They knew they couldn't stop the run, and for the life of me, Gilbride needs to stop trying to be "balanced", and stick to what's working, which was running the ball.

giantsfan
09-09-2008, 11:56 AM
Even the Skins fans sitting by me during the game, wondered why we stopped running the ball. It was fun, because they were cool, but it was like watching a slow death. They knew they couldn't stop the run, and for the life of me, Gilbride needs to stop trying to be "balanced", and stick to what's working, which was running the ball.

He doesn't try to be balanced, he's trying to have an explosive vertical passing attack so people think he's an offensive genius even though that's the exact opposite of what our team's built to do. I really hope he gets fired, I was going to give him a chance to see if he stuck with the shorter passing game and run more this season but that's over with. I'm officially starting the fire Kevin Killdrive campaign.

awfullyquiet
09-09-2008, 12:00 PM
no.

it's akin to the 06 cardinals.

no one's being unfair, just, well. you played well in the stretch, and that's all that mattered.