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View Full Version : Tavaris Jackson vs. Vince Young


D-Unit
09-08-2008, 08:07 PM
Who's holding their team back more?

bored of education
09-08-2008, 08:08 PM
Both, about the same. Very insightful by me, I know.

Prince 561
09-08-2008, 08:08 PM
Jackson, no question.

Bruce
09-08-2008, 08:08 PM
VY easily.

I compare Tavaris to Aaron Brooks.

neko4
09-08-2008, 08:08 PM
T-Jack
He has more talent around him on both sides of the ball. (AD, Williams, Hutch, Berrian, Allen, Sharper, etc)

Ness
09-08-2008, 08:08 PM
I like Tarvaris Jackson's decision making slightly better than Vince Young's. But overall both need to improve their accuracy and decision making.

Smooth Criminal
09-08-2008, 08:08 PM
Jackson actually makes some plays. Young just blows.

Basileus777
09-08-2008, 08:09 PM
Tavaris is worse than Young, but Kerry Collins is better than any of the Vikings' backups.

GB12
09-08-2008, 08:09 PM
I am one of the biggest Vince Young haters, but Jackson is worse.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-08-2008, 08:11 PM
Tavaris Jackson. The Vikings are a solid QB away from being actual title contenders, even if the Titans had say a Matt Hasslebeck they wouldn't be a real contender in my eyes, but if the Vikings had a Hasslebeck type they would be real contenders. IMO Jackson is wayy too inconsistent, he'll make a big play but far too many atrocious games and missed passes on big plays even if it's only by the slightest feet.

Ness
09-08-2008, 08:11 PM
VY easily.

I compare Tavaris to Aaron Brooks.

Aaron Brooks was way better in his heyday than Jackson is now or might ever be. He had the statistics...just not the wins. His bad decision making came at the worst times...when an important game was on the line. It's like the guy had a curse on himself. Like Joe Montana's fortunes, except reverse.

The Dynasty
09-08-2008, 08:13 PM
Vince Young...When your the 3rd pick overall you should be performing every sunday and living up to that.

Bruce Banner
09-08-2008, 08:14 PM
VY, when Collins runs the offense better, you have problems.

Yatta!
09-08-2008, 08:15 PM
Jackson has a lot more to work with so he is holding the team back more.

Bruce
09-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Vince Young...When your the 3rd pick overall you should be performing every sunday and living up to that.Exactly sir.

GB12
09-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Vince Young...When your the 3rd pick overall you should be performing every sunday and living up to that.I don't think draft position should come into play here. If it was asking who's the bigger bust then yeah, but I don't think that's a factor for this question.

DragonFireKai
09-08-2008, 08:18 PM
Jackson actually makes some plays. Young just blows.

I'd see it as actually the other way around. Jackson has just been awful, while Young's play has had some reedeeming features.

Bruce
09-08-2008, 08:20 PM
I don't think draft position should come into play here. If it was asking who's the bigger bust then yeah, but I don't think that's a factor for this question.When your forte is "making plays" and you can't make a bed much less plays I think you're holding your team back more.

Jackson doesn't have to throw as much because he has an awesome run game.

619
09-08-2008, 08:28 PM
Vince Young...When your the 3rd pick overall you should be performing every sunday and living up to that.

For this exact reason I voted VY .

SeanTaylorRIP
09-08-2008, 08:30 PM
For this exact reason I voted VY .

And because he torched you in the Rose Bowl. http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Brent
09-08-2008, 08:31 PM
I think that Young hasnt lived up to the hype and Tarvaris is just awful and was taken way too early. It's a toss up but I with VY since he had a lot of fanfare and hype coming into the league. Also, the whole situation where he thought about retirement is weird.

CC.SD
09-08-2008, 08:59 PM
Well, Jackson probably isn't thinking about retirement, so I vote VY.

Bruce Banner
09-08-2008, 09:01 PM
Legs- Young
Arm- Jackson
Mental midget- both

awfullyquiet
09-08-2008, 09:10 PM
Legs- Young
Arm- Jackson
Mental midget- both

Agreed. They're both terrible in their own way.

If i HAD to have one on my team. I'd pick VY. That's really the case.

But that says nothing to who's holding who back... of which, i think VY is as well.

Bruce
09-08-2008, 09:11 PM
Legs- Young
Arm- Jackson
Mental midget- bothAnd Jackson just looks quiocker than Young. And in the NFL

Quick>Fast

For QB's in this instance.

CJSchneider
09-08-2008, 09:20 PM
Agreed. They're both terrible in their own way.

If i HAD to have one on my team. I'd pick VY. That's really the case.

But that says nothing to who's holding who back... of which, i think VY is as well.

Thats how I decided actually, if they were the last two guys left and I had the last pick, who would I take! I'd take Young.

bearfan
09-08-2008, 09:20 PM
VY, like the said above, when your team invests a #3 pick in you, you're the man. Their WRs arent top notch, but their running game, and defense is pretty good. You could make the case that with a solid QB, the Titans would be a playoff team for a few years.

Tjack on the other end was always a question. But he isnt the main attraction on the offense, the running game runs the show, not Tjack. He still has room to progress, its only week one.

So its a difference between "the guy", and "the guy, behind the guys", and when "the guy" doesnt do his part, the whole team will falter more than the QB who has AD and Taylor.

Staubach12
09-08-2008, 09:20 PM
Bottom line is they're both horrible. Both teams need to start thinking about moving on down the line.

Cribbs>Hester
09-08-2008, 09:22 PM
They both blow. Neither have the intellegence to play QB at the NFL level. The only thing both have going for them is the ability to run. They both get down and give up too easily or slam their helmet like a child when things aren't going their way, and both of them blame their inability to play on injuries(not directly, but when something goes wrong they always seem to be limping or something else).

diabsoule
09-08-2008, 09:24 PM
I can't believe there's a debate about this.

Right now, I think it has to be Tavaris Jackson and it should not even be debatable. The Vikings are a very solid team from top to bottom and have most of the weapons in place to be an extremely dangerous team except for one. Quarterback. Jackson's horrendous accuracy along with his questionable decision making skills will keep Minnesota back for as long as he's under center.

Vince Young, on the other hand, has limited means to be successful. Justin Gage is his primary receiver, and while not a terrible #1 option, he certainly isn't the best. While I wasn't very high on Young coming out of college, you have to give a man the tools to succeed before labeling him someone who is holding their team back. Tavaris Jackson has those tools, Vince Young does not. When on the field, Young is the primary playmaker and as of right now he isn't the one holding his team. At least not right now he's not.

mqtirishfan
09-08-2008, 09:24 PM
When your forte is "making plays" and you can't make a bed much less plays I think you're holding your team back more.


Unless the other guy also makes no plays. Crappy is not worse than equally crappy because of perception.

bearfan
09-08-2008, 09:32 PM
Vince Young, on the other hand, has limited means to be successful. Justin Gage is his primary receiver, and while not a terrible #1 option, he certainly isn't the best. While I wasn't very high on Young coming out of college, you have to give a man the tools to succeed before labeling him someone who is holding their team back. Tavaris Jackson has those tools, Vince Young does not. When on the field, Young is the primary playmaker and as of right now he isn't the one holding his team. At least not right now he's not.

I would disagree that Young doesnt have the tools around him. Gage, McCerins (sp), Crumpler, Bo Scaife are not that bad of options. He has a good offensive line in front of him, and a very solid and underrated run game. Add a good defense, and I would say that the team is almost ready to make a run.

No doubt I would rather have Berrian, and Rice with the Vikes OL and run game, Im just saying that the Titans arent completly as dry as you make it sound

D-Unit
09-08-2008, 09:44 PM
I'm thinking Jamarcus Russell should've been added to this poll. LOL.

Bruce
09-08-2008, 09:48 PM
I'm thinking Jamarcus Russell should've been added to this poll. LOL.They don't let him throw enough. That's the problem.

Bruce Banner
09-08-2008, 09:49 PM
They don't let him throw enough. That's the problem.

that would make sense for this thread
the more he throws, the more he hurts his team!

Bucs_Rule
09-08-2008, 10:00 PM
This is a tough one. The Titans are a underrated team as it is. Outside of Young they are great, solid run game with an outstanding defense. The fact that they were able to makin the playoffs while playing in a very tough division is very impressive. Its hard to say that the Vikings would be a superbowl contender with a legit QB and the Titans not.

Saints-Tigers
09-08-2008, 10:01 PM
It's always the black quarterbacks fault, so I blame both :-/

the_legend_killer
09-08-2008, 10:04 PM
I'd rather have Brooks Bollinger QBing my team than either of these 2.........

thefridge15
09-08-2008, 10:10 PM
I'd rather have Brooks Bollinger QBing my team than either of these 2.........

You do realize that Brooks Bollinger and Kelly Holcomb didnt win a single game in a start last year for the Vikes, while Jackson was 8-4?

As for your question, I would say VY. You guys all watched the MNF game obviously and TJ didnt lose this game for the Vikes, the game was lost because of a lack of making plays in big moments when big plays were needed, and giving up big plays in those moments.

mqtirishfan
09-08-2008, 10:10 PM
It's always the black quarterbacks fault, so I blame both :-/

I can't tell if you're just joking around, or if you're implying there's racism in the world of QBs, but both QBs suck a lot.

DragonFireKai
09-08-2008, 10:12 PM
I would disagree that Young doesnt have the tools around him. Gage, McCerins (sp), Crumpler, Bo Scaife are not that bad of options. He has a good offensive line in front of him, and a very solid and underrated run game. Add a good defense, and I would say that the team is almost ready to make a run.

No doubt I would rather have Berrian, and Rice with the Vikes OL and run game, Im just saying that the Titans arent completly as dry as you make it sound

Crumpler aged poorly these past few years. Gage is at best a third WR, McCareins is a solid 3rd, marginal 2nd WR. Scaife is the only receiving option who's average, if only that.

Offensively, the Vikings are superior at every position save QB.

mqtirishfan
09-08-2008, 10:13 PM
You do realize that Brooks Bollinger and Kelly Holcomb didnt win a single game in a start last year for the Vikes, while Jackson was 8-4?

Jackson got those 8 wins with 9 TDs. He was a non-factor in the Vikings wins (although Bollinger is worse).


As for your question, I would say VY. You guys all watched the MNF game obviously and TJ didnt lose this game for the Vikes, the game was lost because of a lack of making plays in big moments when big plays were needed, and giving up big plays in those moments.

From what you've led me to believe, this doesn't matter. He's 0-1 as a starter this year. Vince Young is 1-0. That's all that matters, right?

thefridge15
09-08-2008, 10:15 PM
Jackson got those 8 wins with 9 TDs. He was a non-factor in the Vikings wins (although Bollinger is worse).




From what you've led me to believe, this doesn't matter. He's 0-1 as a starter this year. Vince Young is 1-0. That's all that matters, right?

I realize Jackson didnt win those games, but Brooks Bollinger is among the worst in the league. Theres a reason he doesnt have a job right now.

Cribbs>Hester
09-08-2008, 10:17 PM
It's always the black quarterbacks fault, so I blame both :-/

Hmmm. Jason Campbell is actually a pretty decent QB and Donovan McNabb is a very good QB....

Bruce Banner
09-08-2008, 10:17 PM
Hmmm. Jason Campbell is actually a pretty decent QB and Donovan McNabb is a very good QB....

No, Jason Campbell is not decent.

yo123
09-08-2008, 10:42 PM
The Vikes with a good QB>>>The Titans with a good QB

So T-Jack.

Basileus777
09-08-2008, 11:03 PM
I'm thinking Jamarcus Russell should've been added to this poll. LOL.

Just what he is holding the Raiders back from achieving? Avoiding a top 10 pick in the draft?

Shane P. Hallam
09-08-2008, 11:04 PM
Holding their team back? Jackson. Young has played okay, and he has more physical skills. He keeps his team in it sometimes, and sometimes blows it as well.

PoopSandwich
09-08-2008, 11:07 PM
Thank god Tom Brady cant hold his team back anymore Matt Cassell can come in and lead the Patriots to the promised land.

PoopSandwich
09-08-2008, 11:08 PM
Hmmm. Jason Campbell is actually a pretty decent QB and Donovan McNabb is a very good QB....

Michael Vick is the best dog fighter in the DFL

giantsfan
09-08-2008, 11:55 PM
Tavaris looked pretty solid today, nothing special but he looked like a guy you could trust and believe in, he moves exceptionally in the pocket and showed he could make throws, now we've just gotta see his chemistry develop with berrian and rice.

yo123
09-08-2008, 11:59 PM
Tavaris looked pretty solid today, nothing special but he looked like a guy you could trust and believe in, he moves exceptionally in the pocket and showed he could make throws, now we've just gotta see his chemistry develop with berrian and rice.

I'm going to assume you missed the first half. At least he realized that he can take off and run, he should be doing that more.

Menardo75
09-09-2008, 12:11 AM
I would say Tavaris at this point. I think he does have the better chance to turn that around though this season.

Addict
09-09-2008, 12:48 AM
Tavaris looked pretty solid today, nothing special but he looked like a guy you could trust and believe in, he moves exceptionally in the pocket and showed he could make throws, now we've just gotta see his chemistry develop with berrian and rice.

really? He looked pathetic in the first quarter...

either way, they both suck:

VY: 3rd overall pick, good team around him
TJ: 2nd rounder, very good team behind him

essentially, TJ is holding a possible contender back from actually contending, VY is a third overall pick who fails to really make his team compete.

BUT VY WENT TO THE PRO BOWL <3!!!

CC.SD
09-09-2008, 01:01 AM
really? He looked pathetic in the first quarter...

either way, they both suck:

VY: 3rd overall pick, good team around him
TJ: 2nd rounder, very good team behind him

essentially, TJ is holding a possible contender back from actually contending, VY is a third overall pick who fails to really make his team compete.

BUT VY WENT TO THE PRO BOWL <3!!!

He also had an awesome run against the Texans! and Kiwi let him go. VY4LIIIIIIIFE.

I got neg repped in the VY is a quitter thread for calling him a biotch, but seriously how does an NFL QB getting paid millions of dollars want to mope himself out of a game...that he's winning?!?!?! Time to grow up Vince.

mqtirishfan
09-09-2008, 01:20 AM
Tavaris looked pretty solid today, nothing special but he looked like a guy you could trust and believe in, he moves exceptionally in the pocket and showed he could make throws, now we've just gotta see his chemistry develop with berrian and rice.

Did you miss all the poor throws into coverage, missed receivers and inability to get a deep ball on the money?

Paranoidmoonduck
09-09-2008, 01:34 AM
I'd say that the Vikings are probably a decent quarterback from being a very scary team. I'm not sure that's the case with the Titans. So Jackson it is.

Stash
09-09-2008, 01:39 AM
I picked VY. TJax has more talent around him therefore they do not need to rely on him as much. The Titans have some talent as well, just not as much as the Vikings and their success depends on VY more.

D-Unit
09-09-2008, 02:41 AM
I'm surprised both DHVF and DJP both voted for Young. Do Vikings fans really honestly believe in Jackson?

SchizophrenicBatman
09-09-2008, 03:13 AM
I remember I made a TJ07 vs VY10 poll last year and it got locked

Anyway I voted for Young because they've structured more of that offense around his playstyle. Collins has seemed to do decently filling in regardless but he's not the future there and, as we saw with Atlanta last year, transitioning a non-traditional offense is not pretty. At least when T-Jack finally gets benched there won't be a huge change in scheme

iworshipbender
09-09-2008, 03:16 AM
Well, VY is injured, so T-Jack

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2008, 03:37 AM
Seriously, Vince isn't blowing anything away with his passing ability, but completing 62% with about the worst receiving corps I've seen in quite some time isn't holding his team back.... Get him a few targets, he'll be fine, both guys were supposed to be projects anyway, and they were both thrown onto teams with no receiving threats.

BTW, Awfullyquiet, I'm not being a "negative nancy" Every black quarterback is trashed for decision making ability, even if it's completely unfounded, it gets blown out of proportion. Jamarcus Russell is athletic, black, and has a powerful arm, SO ZOMG HE MUST BE A BAD DECISION MAKER. I just can't remember a black quarterback that had his intelligence or decision making scrutinized and blown way out of proportion.


I'm thinking Jamarcus Russell should've been added to this poll. LOL.

Like this.... Why? What has Jamarcus Russell ever held a team back from? I'd say he was pretty damn impressive considering the dropped balls and horrible pass protection... It was a knock when he was coming out of college too when he had tremendous percentages and TD:INT ratio playing in the toughest conference, and he showed great improvement every year.

But yea, he MUST be holding back Oakland.

sorry /rant

TitanHope
09-09-2008, 06:55 AM
If VY doesn't start working on his mechanics or build his confidence up, he'll continue to struggle. If you look at TD passes from the likes on Donovan McNabb and Tony Romo yesterday, they were textbook passes and deadly accurate. VY doesn't set his feet properly when he throws, and if you add that in with his slanted arm motion, balls aren't always accurate and don't have zip.

Ever since his injury last year, VY hasn't looked the same as a runner. I'm not saying his injury is still hampering him, but the possibility of being hurt again may give him anxiety when scrambling. Add in that he's pressured to prove he can be a pocket QB, and you've got a guy who's not gonna make great decisions. Point is that when you can run like Young, then you should not be forcing throws. Personally, I'm concerned about his mental durability, and wonder if he's going through some kind of depression, which would explain his whole retirement thing.

As for weapons, it's not really even fair for Vince. In his rookie year, Vince had a great chemistry with Bobby Wade. What did the FO do? They let Wade leave in FA. Last season, Vince had a good chemistry with Roydell Williams. What happens? The FO cuts Roydell during the 53-man roster cuts. The only WR's on roster that Young really has experience with are Gage and Brandon Jones. Scaife hasn't been anything but an over-acheiver in his career, and in fact stunk it up last year receiving. LenWhale's speed, or lack there of, allowed safeties to be able to play off the line and still be able to make up enough ground to tackle the runner. Plus, when your WR's can only get separation through offensive pass-interfearence, you know they suck.

This year, it finally looks like VY had a true-blue playmaking weapon on offense that opposing teams would have to plan for in Chris Johnson...and Young gets ******* hurt in the opener! What happens now is anybody's guess.

illmatic74
09-09-2008, 10:49 AM
Seriously, Vince isn't blowing anything away with his passing ability, but completing 62% with about the worst receiving corps I've seen in quite some time isn't holding his team back.... Get him a few targets, he'll be fine, both guys were supposed to be projects anyway, and they were both thrown onto teams with no receiving threats.

BTW, Awfullyquiet, I'm not being a "negative nancy" Every black quarterback is trashed for decision making ability, even if it's completely unfounded, it gets blown out of proportion. Jamarcus Russell is athletic, black, and has a powerful arm, SO ZOMG HE MUST BE A BAD DECISION MAKER. I just can't remember a black quarterback that had his intelligence or decision making scrutinized and blown way out of proportion.




Like this.... Why? What has Jamarcus Russell ever held a team back from? I'd say he was pretty damn impressive considering the dropped balls and horrible pass protection... It was a knock when he was coming out of college too when he had tremendous percentages and TD:INT ratio playing in the toughest conference, and he showed great improvement every year.

But yea, he MUST be holding back Oakland.

sorry /rantVince Young's problem is his interception rate. You are right about what u said about Russel. But remember Mcnabb has low interception rate

giantsfan
09-09-2008, 11:22 AM
I'm going to assume you missed the first half. At least he realized that he can take off and run, he should be doing that more.

I started watching about 3 minutes into the 3rd quarter. Was he horrible in the first half?

Modano
09-09-2008, 11:42 AM
If VY doesn't start working on his mechanics or build his confidence up, he'll continue to struggle. If you look at TD passes from the likes on Donovan McNabb and Tony Romo yesterday, they were textbook passes and deadly accurate. VY doesn't set his feet properly when he throws, and if you add that in with his slanted arm motion, balls aren't always accurate and don't have zip.

I watched the Titans game sunday and one of the announcers said that the Titans coaching staff (I don't remember if he was referring to someone in particularly) thinks that Young throws accurate balls and they have no need to mess with his mechanic. According to them the problem with Young is his decision making not his accuracy.
Anyway, something is wrong with Vince. He was amazing his junior year at Texas, leading the Longhorns to a great comeback in the national championship. He played well his rookie year, he was making plays and winning games for his team.
Last year something happened and he suffered a sophomore slump (his stats were better except for TD/INT ratio but he wasn't making those winning-game plays anymore). Considering the voices about him poundering retirement, losing passion for the game and being depressed I think he has a big mess in his mind.

awfullyquiet
09-09-2008, 11:46 AM
Seriously, Vince isn't blowing anything away with his passing ability, but completing 62% with about the worst receiving corps I've seen in quite some time isn't holding his team back.... Get him a few targets, he'll be fine, both guys were supposed to be projects anyway, and they were both thrown onto teams with no receiving threats.

BTW, Awfullyquiet, I'm not being a "negative nancy" Every black quarterback is trashed for decision making ability, even if it's completely unfounded, it gets blown out of proportion. Jamarcus Russell is athletic, black, and has a powerful arm, SO ZOMG HE MUST BE A BAD DECISION MAKER. I just can't remember a black quarterback that had his intelligence or decision making scrutinized and blown way out of proportion.

Well. Lets see. Lets take a look at black quarterbacks who have bad decision making: Michael Vick (just for comparison. he's got a lot of bad decisions), Vince Young, Tavaris Jackson and Culpepper (less so). White Quarterbacks with bad decisions making: Brett Favre, Rex Grossman, Alex Smith, Joey Harrington, Derek Anderson. Asian Quarterbacks with bad decision making: Timmy Chang (everyone. please, no flaming, this is just a 'contrived list')... Black Quarterbacks with GOOD decision making: McNabb, Garrard, Jason Campbell, Charlie Batch... If you're saying 'the white man is getting the black man down', i think you're absolutely wrong. If people see VY as being a bad decision maker, that's they're issue, it's not a race issue.

I'm saying: VY bad decision making isn't reflected in his accuracy stats. His bad decision comes from when he wants to scramble, and how he's very reliant on keeping the ball lateral over moving the ball downfield, yes, i understand part of it is the fault of one justin gage, but, to say he doesn't have some bad decision making is lunacy. Some of the GOAT have been poor decision makers, but, make plays happen because of their skills. Don't get all butt hurt over this one, and try to play the race card to make everyone feel bad. It doesn't work.

giantsfan
09-09-2008, 12:01 PM
Well. Lets see. Lets take a look at black quarterbacks who have bad decision making: Michael Vick (just for comparison. he's got a lot of bad decisions), Vince Young, Tavaris Jackson and Culpepper (less so). White Quarterbacks with bad decisions making: Brett Favre, Rex Grossman, Alex Smith, Joey Harrington, Derek Anderson. Asian Quarterbacks with bad decision making: Timmy Chang (everyone. please, no flaming, this is just a 'contrived list')... Black Quarterbacks with GOOD decision making: McNabb, Garrard, Jason Campbell, Charlie Batch... If you're saying 'the white man is getting the black man down', i think you're absolutely wrong. If people see VY as being a bad decision maker, that's they're issue, it's not a race issue.

I'm saying: VY bad decision making isn't reflected in his accuracy stats. His bad decision comes from when he wants to scramble, and how he's very reliant on keeping the ball lateral over moving the ball downfield, yes, i understand part of it is the fault of one justin gage, but, to say he doesn't have some bad decision making is lunacy. Some of the GOAT have been poor decision makers, but, make plays happen because of their skills. Don't get all butt hurt over this one, and try to play the race card to make everyone feel bad. It doesn't work.

Unfortunately just like propoganda it works all to well. I remember back when vick played I got flamed on a nother board for being a racist after I said he's an idiot with the ball in his hands, I ended up getting suspended and never went back to that board.

awfullyquiet
09-09-2008, 12:06 PM
Unfortunately just like propoganda it works all to well. I remember back when vick played I got flamed on a nother board for being a racist after I said he's an idiot with the ball in his hands, I ended up getting suspended and never went back to that board.

I know. It's hard to be called a racist though, when you're not white.

If someone say's 'it's a stereotype that black quarterbacks are bad with decision making', that's their own perception. Because the fact of the matter is, some of the black quarterbacks in the nfl are high profile, big arm, poor decision makers... the one's who say propagate said stereotype should be ignored because they obviously don't know anything about football, because david garrard is lauded as being a good decision maker, same with mcnabb and warren moon. If you honestly believe that the person is qualified to talk about football and spout out stereotypes like that. You are the fool for even listen to the nonsense.

giantsfan
09-09-2008, 12:23 PM
I know. It's hard to be called a racist though, when you're not white.

If someone say's 'it's a stereotype that black quarterbacks are bad with decision making', that's their own perception. Because the fact of the matter is, some of the black quarterbacks in the nfl are high profile, big arm, poor decision makers... the one's who say propagate said stereotype should be ignored because they obviously don't know anything about football, because david garrard is lauded as being a good decision maker, same with mcnabb and warren moon. If you honestly believe that the person is qualified to talk about football and spout out stereotypes like that. You are the fool for even listen to the nonsense.

See I'm a white jew so people throw the race card against me even though my family has had many members persecuted for our ethnicity, I mean we haven't even been practicing for 3 generations but we've still been ****** for it in the USSR, my cousin and his parents actually had to flee to the US back in the early 80s because his buddy's dad was high-ranking party members so they got word that they were being looked into and ran.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2008, 03:32 PM
I started watching about 3 minutes into the 3rd quarter. Was he horrible in the first half?

Yea, he had like 4 yards in the first quarter or something, and maybe 16 at half? I dunno, he looked pretty bad, but after that, I thought he looked decent at times, he had a few head scratchers though.

AwfullyQuiet: McNabb is a wonderful example, unbiased fans know that what McNabb has done without many weapons is astounding, but he still had a wrap for poor decision making, when the problem was the receivers.

I'm not saying EVERYONE thinks all black quarterbacks are poor decision makers, but lets not pretend it's my imagination that they get the "poor decision maker" tab faster than anyone else.

It's noticeable too, Jamarcus Russell had that stigma before most people even saw him play.

awfullyquiet
09-09-2008, 03:36 PM
Jamarcus Russell got that stigma because ESPN said it.

I think it is your imagination, and you need to make it go back to imagination land for now.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2008, 03:37 PM
Jamarcus Russell got that stigma because ESPN said it.

I think it is your imagination, and you need to make it go back to imagination land for now.

So he got the stigma, but it's also my imagination that he got the stigma?

Addict
09-09-2008, 03:39 PM
See I'm a white jew so people throw the race card against me even though my family has had many members persecuted for our ethnicity, I mean we haven't even been practicing for 3 generations but we've still been ****** for it in the USSR, my cousin and his parents actually had to flee to the US back in the early 80s because his buddy's dad was high-ranking party members so they got word that they were being looked into and ran.

Not trying to be insensitive or anything, but what the hell does your family history have to do with this discussion?

TitanHope
09-09-2008, 03:50 PM
I watched the Titans game sunday and one of the announcers said that the Titans coaching staff (I don't remember if he was referring to someone in particularly) thinks that Young throws accurate balls and they have no need to mess with his mechanic. According to them the problem with Young is his decision making not his accuracy.
Anyway, something is wrong with Vince. He was amazing his junior year at Texas, leading the Longhorns to a great comeback in the national championship. He played well his rookie year, he was making plays and winning games for his team.
Last year something happened and he suffered a sophomore slump (his stats were better except for TD/INT ratio but he wasn't making those winning-game plays anymore). Considering the voices about him poundering retirement, losing passion for the game and being depressed I think he has a big mess in his mind.

They were talking about OC Mike Heimerdinger. 'Dinger's not gonna touch the release, but the footwork is another issue. It's something they're working on to fix, and his side-arm motion shouldn't be an issue once he sets his feet properly. The poor decision-making is dead on though.

Vince is a walking football contradiction. His rookie season, he practically put the team on his back and almost carried them to the playoffs. We saw the leadership, passion, and confidence. It's now his third year, and we see none of that. He's gotta get over these mental blocks of his and stop beating himself up for things.

giantsfan
09-09-2008, 04:54 PM
Not trying to be insensitive or anything, but what the hell does your family history have to do with this discussion?

Everything...I am the re-incarnation of vince young sent back from the future to enlighten this board.

giantsfan
09-09-2008, 04:57 PM
Yea, he had like 4 yards in the first quarter or something, and maybe 16 at half? I dunno, he looked pretty bad, but after that, I thought he looked decent at times, he had a few head scratchers though.

Yeah in the second half you looked like a young quarterback who's still learning but was doing a solid job most of the time against a very good green bay D, granted a few throws made you cringe because I wasn't sure wtf he was thinking but overall he looked solid. Was his decision making just better or was there some other noticeably difference between his first and second half performances.

mqtirishfan
09-09-2008, 10:32 PM
It's noticeable too, Jamarcus Russell had that stigma before most people even saw him play.

He got that stigma from college, when he had issues with it. Also, people were claiming he was crap last night, because that post was made in the first quarter when he was 0-5 or something like that.

Saints-Tigers
09-09-2008, 11:38 PM
He got that stigma from college, when he had issues with it. Also, people were claiming he was crap last night, because that post was made in the first quarter when he was 0-5 or something like that.

He really didn't though in college, not his junior year anyway, he made huge strides every year... You don't throw for 68% in the SEC without being a sound decision maker. Is he Peyton Manning? nope. Is he a poor decision maker? no not really, not for his age and experience level.

SchizophrenicBatman
09-10-2008, 12:40 AM
Russell's comp% was inflated in college because LSU threw a TON of short passes to the flats/screen passes/etc. He never really struck me as a bad decision maker but I wouldnt say he was a good one either

awfullyquiet
09-10-2008, 12:46 AM
I'm saying: VY bad decision making isn't reflected in his accuracy stats. His bad decision comes from when he wants to scramble, and how he's very reliant on keeping the ball lateral over moving the ball downfield, yes, i understand part of it is the fault of one justin gage, but, to say he doesn't have some bad decision making is lunacy.

Russell's comp% was inflated in college because LSU threw a TON of short passes to the flats/screen passes/etc. He never really struck me as a bad decision maker but I wouldnt say he was a good one either

Bingo. And it's the same at Tennessee. His problem, with decision making, is his inability to go upfield. He's too comfortable taking the short route, letting the recievers make the play or the running backs, or tight ends...

Watch his accuracy on deep routes, on intermediate routes, watch his decision making. When he throws over 10 yards, his decision making goes downhill.

BBIB
09-10-2008, 09:53 AM
I'd see it as actually the other way around. Jackson has just been awful, while Young's play has had some reedeeming features.

Well from last year:

Vince Young Totals
12 Total TDs
20 Total Turnovers
0.8 TD/game

Tarvaris Totals

12 total TDs
12 total Turnovers
1 TD/game


VY is worse in numbers and considering how high of a pick he was and how he has much more playing time, I'd say he's much more disappointing.

Vikes99ej
09-10-2008, 11:34 AM
I hate both equally, but I'll give Young the edge since he's been on the cover of Madden!

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-10-2008, 12:46 PM
Yea, he had like 4 yards in the first quarter or something, and maybe 16 at half? I dunno, he looked pretty bad, but after that, I thought he looked decent at times, he had a few head scratchers though.

AwfullyQuiet: McNabb is a wonderful example, unbiased fans know that what McNabb has done without many weapons is astounding, but he still had a wrap for poor decision making, when the problem was the receivers.

I'm not saying EVERYONE thinks all black quarterbacks are poor decision makers, but lets not pretend it's my imagination that they get the "poor decision maker" tab faster than anyone else.

It's noticeable too, Jamarcus Russell had that stigma before most people even saw him play.

Every rookie QB is a bad decision maker. When a player has the physical talents of a Russell, or a Cutler, it's all critics really have to harp on. The only top QBs who aren't labeled bad decision makers are the guys like Leinart, who has his bad decisions masked by having All-Americans at every position, or spread QBs, where the "bad decision making" is that they need to learn a new offense where it's more possible to make bad decisions. That's why QBs don't come in and dominate off the bat, and when they do, or at least be very good rookies, like Big Ben, it's because they aren't depended on to make big time decisions.

Anyway, back to Vince more specifically, watching Jay Cutler makes me think that Tennessee needs to do more of what the Broncos do. Jay Cutler is a better pocket passer than Vince, and a better passer in general, but Cutler is very comfortable outside of the pocket. I think more plays should be designed for VY outside, where he can throw to his receiver if he's open, or do what he does best, and take off if he's covered.

awfullyquiet
09-10-2008, 04:50 PM
Anyway, back to Vince more specifically, watching Jay Cutler makes me think that Tennessee needs to do more of what the Broncos do. Jay Cutler is a better pocket passer than Vince, and a better passer in general, but Cutler is very comfortable outside of the pocket. I think more plays should be designed for VY outside, where he can throw to his receiver if he's open, or do what he does best, and take off if he's covered.

I don't care if he's 6'5... he needs to be out of the pocket in order to throw effectively sidearmed.

he needs to get out of the pocket anyway.

Gay Ork Wang
09-10-2008, 05:00 PM
id say TJack. I mean, his running backs/game is prolly the best in the league, the best run stopping defense, and he still gets those kind of numbers?

Whereas Vince Young has an about equal Defense, u just have to look no further than the WRs. I mean who is their best WR? Justin Gage?

BlindSite
09-10-2008, 05:00 PM
The college completion rating thing is stupid anyway, Michael Vick used to be the NCAA leader when he left school and we know he never flourished as a passer.

BamaFalcon59
09-10-2008, 05:00 PM
As far as individual players, I think they are roughly equal.

As far as who is holding their team back more, I would say Tarvaris. That is just because the Vikings with a probowl QB could win the superbowl, the Titans would have less of a shot.

nhlkdog411
09-10-2008, 05:02 PM
I don't even know who to pick they're both so bad. I GUESS that if I have to pick one it would be Jackson because as other people have said he has more to work with. I actually think he's slightly better than VY (not that that is saying a lot mind you) but his team could be very good with even a decent QB.

Addict
09-10-2008, 05:02 PM
Everything...I am the re-incarnation of vince young sent back from the future to enlighten this board.

http://snicka.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/kool-aid.jpg

TitanHope
09-11-2008, 01:08 AM
Anyway, back to Vince more specifically, watching Jay Cutler makes me think that Tennessee needs to do more of what the Broncos do. Jay Cutler is a better pocket passer than Vince, and a better passer in general, but Cutler is very comfortable outside of the pocket. I think more plays should be designed for VY outside, where he can throw to his receiver if he's open, or do what he does best, and take off if he's covered.

They actually did that a bit against the Jags. On the play that VY was hurt, he was passing outside of the pocket (forget if it was a bootleg or not). He passed it to LenWhale perfectly, and naturally, White bats it around senselessly and doesn't make the catch.

But LenWhale probably had Arby's on the brain, so it's understandable.

Crickett
09-11-2008, 01:21 AM
http://snicka.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/kool-aid.jpg

OH YEAH!!!!!!!! lol

Bruce Banner
09-11-2008, 01:23 AM
They actually did that a bit against the Jags. On the play that VY was hurt, he was passing outside of the pocket (forget if it was a bootleg or not). He passed it to LenWhale perfectly, and naturally, White bats it around senselessly and doesn't make the catch.

But LenWhale probably had Arby's on the brain, so it's understandable.

The fact that VY was throwing to White should tell you something. No matter where he is on the field he doesn't feel comfortable throwing down field, probably because he sucks at it.

TitanHope
09-11-2008, 01:43 AM
Actually, Young's Y/A was 6.7 last season. Compare that to commonly accepted more polished QB's like Phillip Rivers (6.9) and Drew Brees (6.8), and it's not below average.

Chow's offense was nothing but short-intermediate passes too. We won't really know how he'll perform in 'Dinger's offense until later in the season. Besides, is Young choosing the open RB/TE showing wiser decision-making than forcing it down-field to a WR who can't get separation, or is it him preferring a short pass cuz he "sucks" at throwing it down-field?

Dam8610
09-11-2008, 01:52 AM
Anyway, back to Vince more specifically, watching Jay Cutler makes me think that Tennessee needs to do more of what the Broncos do. Jay Cutler is a better pocket passer than Vince, and a better passer in general, but Cutler is very comfortable outside of the pocket. I think more plays should be designed for VY outside, where he can throw to his receiver if he's open, or do what he does best, and take off if he's covered.

Now that I think about it, you're right, they don't roll him out of the pocket very often. Why in the world wouldn't they? It takes advantage of his best asset (his ability to make plays with his legs) while completely minimizing his weaknesses by cutting the field in half and giving him less reads, as well as forcing the defenders to account for him as well as their coverage assignments. It seems like it would do nothing but increase the number of positive plays and decrease a lot of the turnovers and poor decision making in their passing game. Then again, I'm sure they've thought of this, and have tried it in practice, so maybe Young has a problem running these type of plays.

CC.SD
09-11-2008, 03:36 AM
The fact that VY was throwing to White should tell you something. No matter where he is on the field he doesn't feel comfortable throwing down field, probably because he sucks at it.

This is totally not a valid method of judgement, lol. QBs can throw to running backs in all kinds of situations. But I get what you're saying.

Vince could hit the deep ball back at Texas. What happened? No weapons to speak of! Who is the Titans deep threat? They've got problems on offense that extend beyond Vince Young.

He's still a puss though.

MetSox17
09-11-2008, 11:17 AM
This is totally not a valid method of judgement, lol. QBs can throw to running backs in all kinds of situations. But I get what you're saying.

Vince could hit the deep ball back at Texas. What happened? No weapons to speak of! Who is the Titans deep threat? They've got problems on offense that extend beyond Vince Young.

He's still a puss though.

Not really, he was never much of a passer. Only when they REALLY needed him to throw the ball did he actually chuck it downfield. And a lot of the times, it was his WR's or TE's (mainly te's) making good plays on the ball.

awfullyquiet
09-11-2008, 12:53 PM
\Chow's offense was nothing but short-intermediate passes too. We won't really know how he'll perform in 'Dinger's offense until later in the season.

Norm Chow is a Genius.

He designed that offense (yes, designed), to work around VY, because he knows VY isn't very good at throwing the deep-ball.


Besides, is Young choosing the open RB/TE showing wiser decision-making than forcing it down-field to a WR who can't get separation, or is it him preferring a short pass cuz he "sucks" at throwing it down-field?

That's not necessarly 'wiser' decision making. Just because you dump off doesn't make you a wise decider... He's too unsure with his own abilities to throw the ball (and rightly so), that he HAS to dump it off too often. If you're not comfortable with your own skills, that's not a good decision.