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View Full Version : If the 2002 Raiders play anyone but Grudens' Bucs, do they win the Super Bowl?


CC.SD
09-10-2008, 06:26 PM
I was having this discussion with a couple Raider fan coworkers, and they're convinced that the biggest factor in their loss was Gruden's intimate knowledge of their play calling and Gannon's mechanics (aka pump fakes).

So, to the board, I pose a two parter:

Does another team have any chance against the Raiders? Their defense was aging but studded. Their offense was prolific, complete with two Hall of Fame receivers and an MVP QB.

The teams they might have faced in the Bowl had the Bucs not made it would be McNabb's eagles, T.O. and Garcia with the 9ers, the Giants not too far removed from a Super Bowl themselves, The Falcons, and of course Favre's Packers. Do any of these teams compete with the Raiders?

Second: Do the Bucs even compete with the Raiders if, say, Tony Dungy was coaching? It was a blowout, but was it Gruden that made it a blowout? Player for player, who was the better team?

We had a very interesting conversation over lunch and I'm curious as to what you all think. Ultimately I believe things would have unfolded the same way because there's no defense I've seen that I liked the style of as much as the Bucs. I still have a Simeon Rice signed football, the only non-Charger signature in my collection.

DeathbyStat
09-10-2008, 06:27 PM
I was having this discussion with a couple Raider fan coworkers, and they're convinced that the biggest factor in their loss was Gruden's intimate knowledge of their play calling and Gannon's mechanics (aka pump fakes).

So, to the board, I pose a two parter:

Does another team have any chance against the Raiders? Their defense was aging but studded. Their offense was prolific, complete with two Hall of Fame receivers and an MVP QB.

The teams they might have faced in the Bowl had the Bucs not made it would be McNabb's eagles, T.O. and Garcia with the 9ers, the Giants not too far removed from a Super Bowl themselves, The Falcons, and of course Favre's Packers. Do any of these teams compete with the Raiders?

Second: Do the Bucs even compete with the Raiders if, say, Tony Dungy was coaching? It was a blowout, but was it Gruden that made it a blowout? Player for player, who was the better team?

We had a very interesting conversation over lunch and I'm curious as to what you all think. Ultimately I believe things would have unfolded the same way because there's no defense I've seen that I liked the style of as much as the Bucs. I still have a Simeon Rice signed football, the only non-Charger signature in my collection.

On face value i would agree but I don't remember who the other contending teams were at the time

Bruce Banner
09-10-2008, 06:36 PM
Boy blunder was the only coach (at the time) that could beat that offense and that's because he put it together. Though if Gannon wasn't there that offense would have failed, he's the only quarterback that has been able to fully digest Gruden's playbook. (people don't realize how cerebral and valuable Gannon was)

It should be noted that the Bucs 02 defense had the NFL DPOY and a few hall of famers in their prime.

Also, the Bucs wouldn't have been in the super bowl if Dungy was the coach. If they even made the playoffs they would have lost in the first round. Dungy's offensive playcalling is the worst in history.....which is why he struck gold in Indy where he wasn't allowed to touch the offense.

Gruden isn't good at building teams. He is good at taking a team on the edge and pushing them over that edge. He is willing to mold his offensive scheme to his players the first year but after that year he expects you to mold to his offense, which doesn't work. His "light a fire" mentality seems to grow old on players after a year or two.

Gruden + Chargers = 'Ship

His infatuation with old/veteran QBs/players is because of his playbook. Most rookies say it would take 3 or 4 seasons to fully understand his playbook....a season or two for most grizzled vets.

bored of education
09-10-2008, 06:42 PM
That was as a serious D that Buccs had.

Gatz
09-10-2008, 06:50 PM
Gruden knew Raiders inside and out. He had A Lot to do with buc's win in sb.

Had there not been the infamous tuck rule then perhaps he wouldn't have ended up on the bucs. the raiders might have even gone on to beat rams in 01.

But they are all ifs.

CC.SD
09-10-2008, 06:52 PM
That was as a serious D that Buccs had.

Excellent point?

doingthisinsteadofwork
09-10-2008, 06:53 PM
I dont think the Bucs could have made it to the SB without Gruden.And I think the Raiders would have won if it was anyone else.

If Dungy's Bucs did play Oakland in the SB they still may have won though.I just don't think Dungy's Bucs would have made it there.

Bruce Banner
09-10-2008, 06:55 PM
If Dungy's Bucs did play Oakland in the SB they still may have won though.I just don't think Dungy's Bucs would have made it there.
^
++,
Dungy + Playoffs - (Manning + Moore) = First round exit


Though I don't think Dungy would have had a chance. There were times during the SB that John Lynch was calling the offense's plays out to the rest of the defense before the snap and that knowledge came from Gruden.

619
09-10-2008, 06:59 PM
Are you just trying to make me feel better ? :)

CC.SD
09-10-2008, 07:02 PM
Are you just trying to make me feel better ? :)

First and foremost!

Brent
09-10-2008, 07:04 PM
I was having this discussion with a couple Raider fan coworkers, and they're convinced that the biggest factor in their loss was Gruden's intimate knowledge of their play calling and Gannon's mechanics (aka pump fakes).

So, to the board, I pose a two parter:

Does another team have any chance against the Raiders? Their defense was aging but studded. Their offense was prolific, complete with two Hall of Fame receivers and an MVP QB.

The teams they might have faced in the Bowl had the Bucs not made it would be McNabb's eagles, T.O. and Garcia with the 9ers, the Giants not too far removed from a Super Bowl themselves, The Falcons, and of course Favre's Packers. Do any of these teams compete with the Raiders?

Second: Do the Bucs even compete with the Raiders if, say, Tony Dungy was coaching? It was a blowout, but was it Gruden that made it a blowout? Player for player, who was the better team?

We had a very interesting conversation over lunch and I'm curious as to what you all think. Ultimately I believe things would have unfolded the same way because there's no defense I've seen that I liked the style of as much as the Bucs. I still have a Simeon Rice signed football, the only non-Charger signature in my collection.
Yes, and they also would have won the Super Bowl had Tony Siragusa not flop jobbed on Gannon or the year of the infamous "tuck rule" game. The NFL just has it out for Al Davis. Poor Rich Gannon.[/biased ranting]

Caddy
09-10-2008, 07:18 PM
God I miss having Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Booger Macfarland, Derrick Brooks, Shelton Quarles, Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, Dwight Smith and Dexter Jackson all playing amazingly.

Tampa 2 4 life
09-10-2008, 07:30 PM
God I miss having Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Booger Macfarland, Derrick Brooks, Shelton Quarles, Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, Dwight Smith and Dexter Jackson all playing amazingly.

Good times, Goood times.

Crickett
09-10-2008, 07:53 PM
Though I don't think Dungy would have had a chance. There were times during the SB that John Lynch was calling the offense's plays out to the rest of the defense before the snap and that knowledge came from Gruden.

You need to watch Herm Edwards and Paul Hackett when they were with the Jets.


Third and long? Time for a run play. For the eleventh time this game.

BuddyCHRIST
09-10-2008, 07:57 PM
More so than anything is the Raiders style of west coast short passing offense matched up terribly with the Tampa 2. The Tampa 2's main weakness is running the ball right at the undersized D-Lineman and LB's who are dropping deep and Oakland did none of that. Also Tampa's Defense was awesome that year, they scored alot of Defensive touchdowns and Derrick Brooks was out of his mind.

Paranoidmoonduck
09-10-2008, 08:03 PM
Was it just Gruden? No, that can't be all. The playbook was the same and the personnel tendencies were the same, but Oakland hadn't faced a defense that was that fast all season, and it showed.

I think I can say that the game would have been a lot closer if Gruden hadn't been the coach, or that Oakland would have matched up much better had it been any other NFC team, but who knows if Oakland would have won. Barrett Robins still went AWOL, Callahan was still calling shots.

CC.SD
09-10-2008, 08:03 PM
God I miss having Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Booger Macfarland, Derrick Brooks, Shelton Quarles, Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, Dwight Smith and Dexter Jackson all playing amazingly.

Easily a top 5 All Time unit.

derza222
09-10-2008, 08:26 PM
You need to watch Herm Edwards and Paul Hackett when they were with the Jets.


Third and long? Time for a run play. For the eleventh time this game.

Yeah, Hackett was always convinced the draw on third down would trick the defense. Or that good old fake end around to Santana Moss we would run about 8 times a game but rarely actually ran.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-10-2008, 09:47 PM
^
++,
Dungy + Playoffs - (Manning + Moore) = First round exit


Though I don't think Dungy would have had a chance. There were times during the SB that John Lynch was calling the offense's plays out to the rest of the defense before the snap and that knowledge came from Gruden.

(Manning+Moore) + Playoffs - Dungy = First round exit.

Bruce Banner
09-10-2008, 09:58 PM
(Manning+Moore) + Playoffs - Dungy = First round exit.

I guess nobody can get both sides of the ball down by themselves. Well, a few can.

Shiver
09-10-2008, 10:04 PM
Championship D always > Championship O

The only, and I stress only, exception is the Colts. But the Bears' were without Mike Brown and Tommie Harris, which diminished their defensive abilities.

That is why I think that the Bucs would have won either way.

yourfavestoner
09-10-2008, 11:39 PM
Whether the Raiders would win or not is a question that we'll never be able to answer.

The two weeks leading up to the Superbowl, Gruden played quarterback for the scout team offense. He ran the plays Callahan called, down to the most specific tendencies. He called audibles and snapcount exactly like Gannon did. He gave the Bucs defense a huge, huge tactical advantage.

However, you also have t consider that the Tampa Two defense was created for and is at its best at stopping the West Coast offense, and the Bucs had one of the best T2 units in history. And the Raiders ran the truest form of the WCO we've seen in recent years.

Bruce Banner
09-10-2008, 11:45 PM
I'm sorry I can't give you more than 31 rep YFS.

and it was funny watching Gruden emulate Gannon.

7-11
09-10-2008, 11:53 PM
^
++,
Dungy + Playoffs - (Manning + Moore) = First round exit


Though I don't think Dungy would have had a chance. There were times during the SB that John Lynch was calling the offense's plays out to the rest of the defense before the snap and that knowledge came from Gruden.

Sorry for getting a little off topic but as a Colts fan i believe he is vastly overrated as an OC

yourfavestoner
09-10-2008, 11:56 PM
Sorry for getting a little off topic but as a Colts fan i believe he is vastly overrated as an OC

He runs a very vanilla offense. He was hugely criticized back in his days in Pittsburgh for not being innovative or aggressive enough.

He basically proves the age old debate that "Players>Plays."

d34ng3l021
09-10-2008, 11:57 PM
God I miss having Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Booger Macfarland, Derrick Brooks, Shelton Quarles, Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, Dwight Smith and Dexter Jackson all playing amazingly.

God I love it.

7-11
09-11-2008, 12:01 AM
He runs a very vanilla offense. He was hugely criticized back in his days in Pittsburgh for not being innovative or aggressive enough.

He basically proves the age old debate that "Players>Plays."

Watch our offense from a few years ago, you can pretty much say he didn't do anything

Menardo75
09-11-2008, 01:31 AM
Either way it would have been one of the best defenses in history, and that would have carried them to a superbowl win just like it did.

CC.SD
09-11-2008, 03:26 AM
God I miss having Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Booger Macfarland, Derrick Brooks, Shelton Quarles, Ronde Barber, Brian Kelly, Dwight Smith and Dexter Jackson all playing amazingly.

Just by the way, missed JOHN LYNCH. Mr. Beast.

The footage of him calling out the plays is pretty classic. Man, talk about a nightmare matchup.