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Ozzy
09-22-2008, 03:42 PM
There sure seems to be a lot of talk about athletic and mobile quarterbacks in the NFL and their varying degrees of success. I looked over the past drafts between the years of 1998-2007. I included all quarterbacks that can move around in the pocket and make plays with their legs. Basically all quarterbacks that are great athletes physically, I did not look at how well they could throw the ball.


The total amount of quarterbacks included was 46 over 9 years. Now based on the groups I have below, which could be argued, but based on those only three of these athletic quarterbacks became pro bowl caliber QB’s. Here is how I separated the quarterbacks, and all players on this list played quarterback in college.

I separated them into five groups:
*Franchise quarterbacks 6%
*Early success followed by failure 17%
*Never any real success 30%
*Jury is still out, but not promising 13%
*Position change 33%


Currently successful pro bowl caliber QB’s.
Donovan McNabb
Ben Roethlisberger
David Garrard


Early success followed by a sharp crash
Michael Vick
Vince Young
Daunte Culpepper
Cade McNown
Aaron Brooks
David Carr
Kyle Boller
JP Losman
http://highbridnation.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/01/rt_michael_vick_070719_ms.jpg
http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/vince%20young-hurt.jpg
http://blog.nj.com/ledgergiants/2008/03/carr3.jpg


Never really succeeded at the position
Michael Bishop
Quincy Carter
Marques Tuiasosopo
Cody Pickett
Matt Mauk
Adrian McPherson
Stefan LeFors
Charlie Whitehurst
Steve Bellisari
Omar Jacobs
DJ Shockley
Josh Harris
Syvelle Newton
Paul Thompson


Jury is still out but does not look that promising
Tarvaris Jackson
Alex Smith
Seneca Wallace
Troy Smith
Kellen Clemens
Drew Stanton


Changed positions: * indicates a successful transition.
*Hines Ward
*Matt Jones
*Antwaan Randle El
*Ronald Curry
*Joshua Cribbs
*Arnaz Battle
*Brad Smith
*Michael Robinson
Eric Crouch
Isaiah Stanback
Marcus Vick
Reggie McNeal
Marques Hagans
Michael Spurlock
Bobby Newcombe
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h109/DKopp85/MattJones.jpg
http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb7/xRA1D3Rx/RonaldCurry1.jpg


Now what can be said about all of this, why did those three quarterbacks stand the test over all the rest? Well all three went into great situations and wonderful organizations. McNabb however has went through his far share of critics over the years, and almost half of the time it seemed people wanted him out. Ben Roethlisberger came into the ideal situation and now since he won a Super Bowl cannot do any wrong. And Garrard just kind of came out of nowhere last year, was a backup for a really long time so one can argue he should not be included because he has not proven it enough.

Nonetheless, players have made very successful transitions to receiver early, players like Ward, Jones, Randle El and Curry. However it can be said that none of those players had a good enough arm to play QB in the NFL anyway, outside of maybe Curry.


Overall what I get from all of this is like unlike almost most other positions where you draft the best athlete flat out, quarterback cannot be evaluated that way. Look at the marvelously athletic quarterbacks in David Carr, Michael Vick, Kyle Boller and Vince Young but all have really failed at the position. Sure is a athletic quarterback the ideal, obviously who wouldn’t want a quarterback that can throw the ball anywhere on the field and also run the football when need be and be the ultimate duel threat. However a player like Donovan McNabb clearly does not come along very often. And even him, if he did not have outstanding character and intelligence he would have cracked many times under the intense pressure he has been under.
http://www.thesportstruth.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/donovan-mcnabb.jpeg


Thus to all of those Terrelle Pryor and Tim Tebow fans out there, good luck, they are going to need it.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 03:45 PM
How the current college prospects compare to these past athletic QB's. Even though for some it is way to early to tell, here is what I think in terms of potentially how things could work out.

SENIORS
Pat White- position change to receiver and could be really good
Patrick Pinkney East Carolina- Will get a look in the NFL, no position change.
Brian Johnson Utah- no position change, short look, has potential
Bobby Reid Texas Southern- possible position change, depends on his season
Kinsmon Lancaster Louisiana Monroe- position change, could be very interesting


JUNIORS
Tim Tebow Florida- very hard to say, depends on what situation he is placed in
Dan LeFevour Central Michigan- promising, should be able to have a chance
Todd Reesing Kansas- questionable but his leadership and accuracy will carry him
Isiah 'Juice' Williams Illinois- huge arm, choices very questionable, up in the air
Matt Grothe South Florida- most likely a position change to RB or WR
Kellen Lewis Indiana- split, possible change but still is promising
Jameel Sewell NA- depends on where he will end up, position change most likely
Ryan Perrilloux Jackson State- position change if even drafted
Armanti Edwards Appalachian State- position change possible
Zac Robinson Oklahoma State- possible success, possible position change
Jarrett Brown West Virginia - position change, lucky to be picked up
Josh Portis Maryland - position change, lucky to be picked up


SOPHOMORES
Jake Locker Washington- will get a shot, really has to develop though
Colin Kaepernick Nevada- possible position change but can develop into a QB
Eddie McGee Illinois- need to see more, maybe could be a QB
D’Vontrey Richardson Florida State - still early, has potential to do it
Tyrod Taylor Virginia Tech- position change, or moderate success in the NFL
Josh Nesbitt Georgia Tech- position change most likely


FRESHMAN
Terrelle Pryor Ohio State- is he McNabb, no way, position change is possible
Jacory Harris Miami FL- position change, but in college he is great
Steven Threet Michigan- up in the air still



Very hard to say on a lot of these players though, but just like in high school football you put the best athlete at QB so you can win and that is what a lot of college teams do. However that clearly does not work in the NFL what so ever.




From my personal experience following prospects, I have always absolutely loved the athletic quarterback prospect. Guys that could rocket the ball down the field, and then on the next play take a play fake and make it into a 40 yard run down the field. It is the ultimate weapon on a football field. Players like Michael Vick I just adored, he was possible the ideal, so fast, such a strong arm. But mentally he was a idiot and surrounded himself with idiot people that put him in a bad place. Then you also have Adrian McPherson, who was very similar to Vick but also made horrible choices in his life. I also loved watching Michael Bishop lead Kansas State, and watch Cody Pickett/Marques Tuiasosopo put up insane numbers rushing and passing the football. Then you have JP Losman who still is a shock he is not better than he is considering how good of an athlete he was with such a great arm.

Currently I loved Colin Kaepernick from last season, such a tall player who was quick and simply moved the ball down field. There is so much potential there, also with a guy like D’Vontrey Richardson who most would say have played horrible but there is so much potential in his running ability.



Out of all of the athletic college quarterbacks currently, I think Tim Tebow might have the best shot at being great in the NFL. And it does not have to do with his arm, it has to do with his character and leadership ability. Honestly who would not want to follow this guy and play along side him? Oh and the fact he is one of the elite athletes in the nation, if David Carr put up great combine numbers as a QB, just think about what Tebow will do.
http://images.chron.com/blogs/longhorns/tim_tebow.jpg

TheBuffaloBills
09-22-2008, 03:48 PM
Great write up.

keylime_5
09-22-2008, 03:53 PM
You know, Joshua Cribbs was a QB at Kent State and is their all time leading passer and rusher...and he's an allpro kick returner in the NFL now and one of the best all around special teams players in the NFL (great KR, great PR, great gunner on punts, great on kick coverage).

mqtirishfan
09-22-2008, 03:56 PM
Do you want to do the unathletic QBs, now? Because you're going to find a very low success rate.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 03:57 PM
You know, Joshua Cribbs was a QB at Kent State and is their all time leading passer and rusher...and he's an allpro kick returner in the NFL now and one of the best all around special teams players in the NFL (great KR, great PR, great gunner on punts, great on kick coverage).I did not know that! Thanks I will edit it and change around the results.

DeathbyStat
09-22-2008, 04:28 PM
Good stuff but I don't buy Matt Grothe as a running back

Turtlepower
09-22-2008, 04:29 PM
Matt Jones is a bust and it was no where near a successful change. Ask YFS for more on this matter.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 04:51 PM
Matt Jones is a bust and it was no where near a successful change. Ask YFS for more on this matter.Did the Jaguars draft him too high? Yes possible, a bust, I don't think so considering if he would have stayed a QB he would not be in the NFL right now. Yes he should get more out of his athletic ability as a WR though.

ATLDirtyBirds
09-22-2008, 04:55 PM
I'd have to say you are wrong on Michael Vick. He had an impressive 2002, but didn't have a sharp crash as you suggested. Hurt in 03. 04 was meh, and 05 was above that. However '06 was pretty impressive, as on a run primary team he accounted for over 3,500 yards of offense and 22 total TDs to 13 INTs.

Brent
09-22-2008, 05:08 PM
I would be shocked if Zac Robinson changed positions.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 05:23 PM
I'd have to say you are wrong on Michael Vick. He had an impressive 2002, but didn't have a sharp crash as you suggested. Hurt in 03. 04 was meh, and 05 was above that. However '06 was pretty impressive, as on a run primary team he accounted for over 3,500 yards of offense and 22 total TDs to 13 INTs.I like Michael Vick as much as the next guy. However even if you take out the legal troubles he got himself into, he was not doing wonderful in his last few seasons. The team was not winning all that much, and even if they got in the playoffs they did not get very far. I remember before his little Dog incident came out people were upset about his on the field decision making and how he still has not developed into a pocket passer in the NFL. Yes he was successful, so was Culpepper before his injury. Both players though had their issues that their athletic ability could not help them out with. Culpepper was a walking turnover literally. Then you have Vick who just did not seem able to get the ball to the receivers consistently no matter what kind of receivers he had.

I remember the Falcons saying Michael likes throwing to the RB's so they go RB's that could catch passes. Then they said he likes throwing to TE's, so they try to get or resign TE's. Then they said he likes throwing to big WR's so they started getting big targets. Honestly just get the receivers the ball, no matter who it is.

Just look at Roddy White, Vick had him on his team yet White looks much better just because Matt Ryan a rookie QB is throwing him the ball? Granted his improvement and maybe it was just experience but then again maybe it was who was throwing him the ball.

Personality and character also comes into play here, and despite being a real competitive and tough kid. He just did not seem like a real leader for the Falcons and obviously made absolutely horrible choices off the field which led him to his current jail time. If he comes back will a team try him back at QB? Maybe, but why when his decision making on and off the field suck so much, why not put him at WR? Because clearly we are not talking about a McNabb type of person here in Vick. Maybe he converted to something in prison though and got his head out of his butt.

illmatic74
09-22-2008, 06:17 PM
Tim Tebow and Vince Young are interesting cases because for them to be succesful they have to forget everything that made him succesful in college for the NFL. Vince Younglooks like he is not going to have that succes we will just see for Tebow.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 06:38 PM
Tim Tebow and Vince Young are interesting cases because for them to be succesful they have to forget everything that made him succesful in college for the NFL. Vince Younglooks like he is not going to have that succes we will just see for Tebow.Exactly that is why I honestly hate Florida's offense, a spread offense is one thing but this shot gun option offense really messes up a quarterback. They do not make typical quarterback throws. Sure you win college games but you do not prepare them for the next level


It is crazy, from my first list the only players that played in that standard shotgun option offense were Vince Young, Kellen Clemens and Alex Smith.

Then you have now in current college football, all of these quarterbacks play in a offense somewhat like the shotgun option.

Pat White
Patrick Pinkney
Brian Johnson
Kinsmon Lancaster
Tim Tebow
Dan LeFevour
Isiah 'Juice' Williams
Matt Grothe
Kellen Lewis
Ryan Perrilloux
Armanti Edwards
Zac Robinson
Jarrett Brown
Josh Portis
Colin Kaepernick
Eddie McGee
D’Vontrey Richardson
Tyrod Taylor
Steven Threet


Quite a change huh, now everyone seems to be running that stupid offense. Will be interesting to see just how good of professional QB's it produces. However of this list of players, Tebow right now is the only one that absolutely stands out. All the other guys are up in the air and raw, and they are not going to get any less raw by running a offense that the NFL does not use.

WMD
09-22-2008, 06:45 PM
I wouldn't put Drew Stanton under "Never succeeded" yet. He was injured for his whole Rookie year and is out for the first month of this season. He did solid in the Preseason and is probably going to get his chance to prove himself in a couple weeks.

FuzzyGopher
09-22-2008, 06:45 PM
I think the best thing for Tebow would to be drafted and tucked away on the bench for 2 years. He needs to learn from a true pocket passer and watch how to be an NFL QB. I hate it when guys like him are thrown to the wolves because coaches think their athletic ability will bail them out when they get into trouble. In reality it hurts them because they end up relying on it to much.

neko4
09-22-2008, 06:47 PM
I wouldn't put Drew Stanton under "Never succeeded" yet. He was injured for his whole Rookie year and is out for the first month of this season. He did solid in the Preseason and is probably going to get his chance to prove himself in a couple weeks.
The start of Stanton's career sounds like the start of Rodger's career. Good preseasons. often hurt.

Race for the Heisman
09-22-2008, 06:52 PM
No love for Tony Romo or Jeff Garcia? I'd put both of them in the 'athlete' category. Maybe not as much as all of the other guys you mentioned, but if Stanton is there, why not either of those two? Furthermore, I disagree with where you placed a few guys and also which prospects you project to change position, namely with the underclassmen. It pains me to see you write off a freshman so early in his career, but on the flip side, you are assuming that same freshman will be an NFL prospect at any position, which is also looking ahead quite a bit.

Like the guys above me, I too think it's a little early to write off Stanton.

Saints-Tigers
09-22-2008, 06:52 PM
I hold my judgment on guys until I see them fail with a good supporting cast on the offense, something Mike Vick and Vince Young haven't really had IMO.

Go_Eagles77
09-22-2008, 06:58 PM
Some of the all-time greats were pretty mobile too. Steve Young, John Elway, Fran Tarkenton. Randall Cunningham might be the best pure athlete at QB ever though, save maybe Michael Vick.

mqtirishfan
09-22-2008, 06:59 PM
come to think of it, where is Aaron Rodgers?

illmatic74
09-22-2008, 07:09 PM
Exactly that is why I honestly hate Florida's offense, a spread offense is one thing but this shot gun option offense really messes up a quarterback. They do not make typical quarterback throws. Sure you win college games but you do not prepare them for the next level


It is crazy, from my first list the only players that played in that standard shotgun option offense were Vince Young, Kellen Clemens and Alex Smith.

Then you have now in current college football, all of these quarterbacks play in a offense somewhat like the shotgun option.

Pat White
Patrick Pinkney
Brian Johnson
Kinsmon Lancaster
Tim Tebow
Dan LeFevour
Isiah 'Juice' Williams
Matt Grothe
Kellen Lewis
Ryan Perrilloux
Armanti Edwards
Zac Robinson
Jarrett Brown
Josh Portis
Colin Kaepernick
Eddie McGee
D’Vontrey Richardson
Tyrod Taylor
Steven Threet


Quite a change huh, now everyone seems to be running that stupid offense. Will be interesting to see just how good of professional QB's it produces. However of this list of players, Tebow right now is the only one that absolutely stands out. All the other guys are up in the air and raw, and they are not going to get any less raw by running a offense that the NFL does not use. But the reason why they use it is exactly what you said it wins games. It also gives teams with lesser talent the abilty to compete. This offense will not go away for a while.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 07:21 PM
No love for Tony Romo or Jeff Garcia? I'd put both of them in the 'athlete' category. Maybe not as much as all of the other guys you mentioned, but if Stanton is there, why not either of those two? Furthermore, I disagree with where you placed a few guys and also which prospects you project to change position, namely with the underclassmen. It pains me to see you write off a freshman so early in his career, but on the flip side, you are assuming that same freshman will be an NFL prospect at any position, which is also looking ahead quite a bit.

Like the guys above me, I too think it's a little early to write off Stanton.That is true, however Garcia was not drafted in the years between 1998-2007 which were the years I looked at. Plus Romo, I never really saw him play in college so I cannot comment on how he was in college. Yes both are scramble quarterbacks and are fine athletes. But those are the reasons I did not include them.


Furthermore, I disagree with where you placed a few guys and also which prospects you project to change position, namely with the underclassmen. It pains me to see you write off a freshman so early in his career, but on the flip side, you are assuming that same freshman will be an NFL prospect at any position, which is also looking ahead quite a bit.
I would love to argue that with you, yes they were quick generalizations but I think they have some legit reasons behind it. And looking too far ahead? Please that is what I do, I analyze college football prospects thus I try to predict ahead of time how players are going to be. I watch freshman and sophomores honestly more than juniors or seniors sometimes, what is the fun in just waiting till their JR or SR year to see if they are good or not? I would rather watch the athletes total progression throughout.

I would love to debate it though, what quarterbacks do you think can make it as a NFL QB that I had listed as a possible position changes? And yes every time I put position change it is to receiver almost always. Rarely has a quarterback ever been a good safety or running back.

Again I saythat is what I do, I watch college football prospects and I do not think it is saying too much that some outstanding freshman are NFL prospects even as freshman. To not see that is ridiculous to me, like last year the freshman running backs, who in their right mind would not consider some of those guys potential stars at the next level?

ATLDirtyBirds
09-22-2008, 07:22 PM
I like Michael Vick as much as the next guy. However even if you take out the legal troubles he got himself into, he was not doing wonderful in his last few seasons. The team was not winning all that much, and even if they got in the playoffs they did not get very far. I remember before his little Dog incident came out people were upset about his on the field decision making and how he still has not developed into a pocket passer in the NFL. Yes he was successful, so was Culpepper before his injury. Both players though had their issues that their athletic ability could not help them out with. Culpepper was a walking turnover literally. Then you have Vick who just did not seem able to get the ball to the receivers consistently no matter what kind of receivers he had.

I remember the Falcons saying Michael likes throwing to the RB's so they go RB's that could catch passes. Then they said he likes throwing to TE's, so they try to get or resign TE's. Then they said he likes throwing to big WR's so they started getting big targets. Honestly just get the receivers the ball, no matter who it is.

Just look at Roddy White, Vick had him on his team yet White looks much better just because Matt Ryan a rookie QB is throwing him the ball? Granted his improvement and maybe it was just experience but then again maybe it was who was throwing him the ball.

Personality and character also comes into play here, and despite being a real competitive and tough kid. He just did not seem like a real leader for the Falcons and obviously made absolutely horrible choices off the field which led him to his current jail time. If he comes back will a team try him back at QB? Maybe, but why when his decision making on and off the field suck so much, why not put him at WR? Because clearly we are not talking about a McNabb type of person here in Vick. Maybe he converted to something in prison though and got his head out of his butt.



The team not winning was far from his fault. His decision making still needed improvements, but he was impressive in his final season. Didn't appear to be a great leader, however. The problem was Jim Mora thought it'd be smart to take a QB with a rocket arm and below average accuracy in the WCO, mainly because of the rollouts, but it just wasn't that smart. Crumpler was the saftey blanket, but he wasn't that huge on throwing to the RB from what I remember. Roddy White is a who knows thing. WR's are supposed to get 3 years as a rule of thumb, and he exploded his third year with Harrington and Redman. The only thing I can think of is that he couldn't handle hard passes. Vick wasn't a failure by any means. He could have been much more if he dedicated himself to the playbook/game, but he never really did, so we only saw the tip of the iceberg. Which wasn't half bad. That's the saddest thing as a fan.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 07:23 PM
Some of the all-time greats were pretty mobile too. Steve Young, John Elway, Fran Tarkenton. Randall Cunningham might be the best pure athlete at QB ever though, save maybe Michael VickYes ideally I could have included all quarterbacks but I never had the chance to see those players in college because I was not alive at the time...haha

As for Drew Stanton, yes I should have probably put him on the jury category. I really like him as a prospect and would love to see him succeed honestly.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 07:25 PM
Vick wasn't a failure by any means. He could have been much more if he dedicated himself to the playbook/game, but he never really did, so we only saw the tip of the iceberg. Which wasn't half bad. That's the saddest thing as a fan.Oh totally, he would have been the absolute ideal, but yes his decision making was just off. Everyone would love a QB with what seemed like 4.3 speed and a arm that could throw the ball anywhere on the field. Too bad his arm was never that accurate, really interesting to see if he gets a chance again at QB when he gets out of jail.

Bearsfan123
09-22-2008, 07:34 PM
Just a tidbit, Juice Williams worked out last summer with Donovan McNabb and Donovan was impressed with him. I think thats a pretty good endorsement, but I cant wait for his senior year. Also he plays under center a few snaps a game so he doesnt always play out of the shotgun.

Race for the Heisman
09-22-2008, 08:06 PM
That is true, however Garcia was not drafted in the years between 1998-2007 which were the years I looked at. Plus Romo, I never really saw him play in college so I cannot comment on how he was in college. Yes both are scramble quarterbacks and are fine athletes. But those are the reasons I did not include them.



I would love to argue that with you, yes they were quick generalizations but I think they have some legit reasons behind it. And looking too far ahead? Please that is what I do, I analyze college football prospects thus I try to predict ahead of time how players are going to be. I watch freshman and sophomores honestly more than juniors or seniors sometimes, what is the fun in just waiting till their JR or SR year to see if they are good or not? I would rather watch the athletes total progression throughout.

I would love to debate it though, what quarterbacks do you think can make it as a NFL QB that I had listed as a possible position changes? And yes every time I put position change it is to receiver almost always. Rarely has a quarterback ever been a good safety or running back.

Again I saythat is what I do, I watch college football prospects and I do not think it is saying too much that some outstanding freshman are NFL prospects even as freshman. To not see that is ridiculous to me, like last year the freshman running backs, who in their right mind would not consider some of those guys potential stars at the next level?

As for the first part, I forgot about your selection criteria in terms of sampling method so I can understand Garcia's non-inclusion, but Romo looks to be a franchise quarterback. He, by his absence or his presence, will skew your statistics, and I think you have to acknowledge him in some form. Also, what about Jay Cutler? I cannot see the first post but was he included?

For the freshmen, I can appreciate trying to get a bead on them early, but I think you have to give them much more leeway in terms of your final projection. Take Pryor for example. I was watching him is the US Army All-American Bowl and I would tell you that he needs to learn to drive his passes. He throws floaters with loose spirals and if he never refines himself he shouldn't be much of an NFL quarterback prospect. On the flip side, he showed me enough in the Troy game in terms of intangibles to make me believe he can become a legitimate NFL quarterback prospect, assuming he progresses, as I expect freshmen to do.

Regarding waiting, like I hinted earlier, you can evaluate early, but you should not develop a set opinion of a player until at least the season before he is drafted. Some players have had breakout senior seasons and flopped, other have had that breakout season and gone on to excel, enough so that you cannot write off a player based on only having one good season at the end of his college career or based on an earlier season either.

Finally, as you say, some guys could be NFL prospects as freshmen, but I'll add this tidbit: if they could declare. Look at Michael Bush. Injuries change things. The emergence of other players changes things. The success of similar players in the NFL impacts draft stock. So much can change, even over the course of a week or two (Todd Boeckman had some first day talk being thrown his way with Derek Anderson comparison [both look bad/unlikely for him now], but now he'll probably go undrafted). Granted that example might not be the best since many never really regarded Boeckman as that good of a prospect, but I'm only using it to illustrate my point.

To really end this, what about Willy Korn? He's been getting some time at Clemson. Not as much to evaluate as someone like Tyrod Taylor (who I also think has legitimate NFL quarterback aspirations [although you may have said that; your explanation seemed a little convoluted]), but he's another guy I'd like your opinion on if you have seen anything of him.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 08:50 PM
As for the first part, I forgot about your selection criteria in terms of sampling method so I can understand Garcia's non-inclusion, but Romo looks to be a franchise quarterback. He, by his absence or his presence, will skew your statistics, and I think you have to acknowledge him in some form. Also, what about Jay Cutler? I cannot see the first post but was he included?I did think of including Cutler, however I did not include him because honestly he was not a great athlete at Vandy, sure he ran for his life because his offensive line was not wall to wall built. I do not consider him a great athlete at all at QB though, great arm, not a great athlete. As for Romo, much like Steve Young he scrambles to get away from defenders and find players down the field. Romo does not scare people with his running, yes he is pretty quick and fast but not sure if I would call him a running quarterback. There is a reason Stanback returns kicks not not Romo...haha jk. Yes it is a little subjective to who is looking. However even if Romo was included that still only makes 4 franchise type QB's out of 44.


For the freshmen, I can appreciate trying to get a bead on them early, but I think you have to give them much more leeway in terms of your final projection. Take Pryor for example. I was watching him is the US Army All-American Bowl and I would tell you that he needs to learn to drive his passes. He throws floaters with loose spirals and if he never refines himself he shouldn't be much of an NFL quarterback prospect. On the flip side, he showed me enough in the Troy game in terms of intangibles to make me believe he can become a legitimate NFL quarterback prospect, assuming he progresses, as I expect freshmen to do.That is true Pryor could become a QB in the NFL and most people will push that because they want that. However I say again is he as good as McNabb, there is no way in hell. Thus if he cannot throw the ball well now who says he can later? Vince Young if I remember always could throw the ball hard and had a good spiral, however his decision making and accuracy is bad. Nonetheless, Pryor, who does not really throw it that hard and does not throw a good spiral and also does not have amazing accuracy. He is supposed to all of a sudden be able to do that out of the blue? I am not saying it could not happen, but the odds are against it from happening. Who wouldn't want that monster at QB though, so big and so athletic. Hopefully he can make it but I doubt it, but people will push it and never even try him at WR, a position he could potentially be better at for a longer period of time than QB. Only time will tell but I do not believe he is anywhere close to McNabb, the standard as far as athletic quarterbacks go and yes it is because of his throwing arm overall.

Regarding waiting, like I hinted earlier, you can evaluate early, but you should not develop a set opinion of a player until at least the season before he is drafted. Some players have had breakout senior seasons and flopped, other have had that breakout season and gone on to excel, enough so that you cannot write off a player based on only having one good season at the end of his college career or based on an earlier season either.They are not set opinions, they change and players move up and down constantly. I totally agree a player could be awesome one year and be horrible the next. That is totally the case, but does not mean one can predict for prediction sake once in awhile. I also really enjoy watching a players career. As can be seen through the thread I made about college players that did not turn out, I really like watching how a prospects career takes shape and trying to see what went wrong and what could have been.


To really end this, what about Willy Korn? He's been getting some time at Clemson. Not as much to evaluate as someone like Tyrod Taylor (who I also think has legitimate NFL quarterback aspirations [although you may have said that; your explanation seemed a little convoluted]), but he's another guy I'd like your opinion on if you have seen anything of him.I have not see Korn play in college yet, but I do remember him from a All Star high school game and yes he is pretty skilled. Will wait and see what he is like down the road though, hopefully he is as good as everyone thinks.

As for Taylor, I say to you this, what about Marcus Vick, (a player I forgot to include in the list and I just corrected that error). But remember him on Virginia Tech, I honestly thought that kid can totally play QB, he has a good arm, throws a really accurate ball and obviously is a great athlete. He will take lessons not learned by his brother and possibly be a great project QB in the NFL. Yeah all know how that turned out, turns out he was not all that accurate, too small and ultimately no team wanted him to play QB at all. It is ridiculous but he made just about as dumb of choices as his brother did though in the end.

Now granted is Taylor like the two Vick brothers? Yes he is a lot like them, very quick, can make people miss, is fast and makes plays throwing the ball on the run. But if Marcus Vick could not succeed why would Taylor succeed? He makes plays but really he does not throw that good of a ball and it is all about him being able to move in the pocket and scramble and get yards on broken plays. Sure Taylor can maybe be a QB, but it will be a hard road because his arm is not that great. But you have to love that athletic ability and you want a QB like that, but simply put he might not have the arm, accuracy, leadership or character to be a good QB. Who knows, again this is not fact, but from how other players like him have turned out, seems unlikely he will be able to be a NFL QB for a long time.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 09:10 PM
These players in college, outside of the obvious ones but all of these guys I thought had great potential as a QB in the NFL and as prospects they were just cool. All athletic QB's with very strong throwing arms and so much potential!


Michael Bishop-
http://collegian.catzone.com/images/sptb.ksubishoprun.jpgWonderful on the field leader, very physical strong, and threw a really nice football and had a monster arm. Always remember him against A&M in the title game of the conference and he easily made a 80-85 yard throw. Such a promising prospect, but clearly did not make good choices and despite his big arm, was not accurate enough with that arm.


Ronald Curry
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/2000/10/21/001232167.jpg
He had one of the most impressive releases ever, just a short little flick and the ball went flying. A great athlete obviously being a pretty solid basketball PG in his own right as well. Just really never put it all together on the football field but has a good enough work ethic and is a good enough athlete to make the change to WR in the NFL.


Isaiah Stanback
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dNjcIt2ue2zs/610x.jpg
What an amazing prospect, a wonderful athlete and so large as a man. Very strong, great speed and again had a monster arm. And yes again despite his arm strength was not accurate and did not throw the ball with touch. Think of him as a QB though, what damage he could have done.


Reggie McNeal
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/10/25/sports/25am.jpg
Another player who was fast as can be, made him seem like the next Michael Vick like prospect with how literally fast he was. Then his throwing arm was outstanding but again did not have the accuracy at all and made some great throws then made horrible throws. Was not consistent enough at all as a QB. What a prospect though, him and Vince Young were ontop of the Texas world, too bad McNeal did not even have much college success even.


Common theme here is accuracy, all of these QB's did not throw the ball with good touch and were not all that accurate when having to put the ball in tight spaces. Oh and the standard decision making abilities were all somewhat suspect. But such amazing prospects, and so fun to dream of what they could be instead of seeing what they are. Thus I totally see, and even sometimes do, view a QB who is athletic as more promising potentially then a standard solid QB with a equal throwing arm.

Race for the Heisman
09-22-2008, 09:34 PM
I did think of including Cutler, however I did not include him because honestly he was not a great athlete at Vandy, sure he ran for his life because his offensive line was not wall to wall built. I do not consider him a great athlete at all at QB though, great arm, not a great athlete. As for Romo, much like Steve Young he scrambles to get away from defenders and find players down the field. Romo does not scare people with his running, yes he is pretty quick and fast but not sure if I would call him a running quarterback. There is a reason Stanback returns kicks not not Romo...haha jk. Yes it is a little subjective to who is looking. However even if Romo was included that still only makes 4 franchise type QB's out of 44.


That is true Pryor could become a QB in the NFL and most people will push that because they want that. However I say again is he as good as McNabb, there is no way in hell. Thus if he cannot throw the ball well now who says he can later? Vince Young if I remember always could throw the ball hard and had a good spiral, however his decision making and accuracy is bad. Nonetheless, Pryor, who does not really throw it that hard and does not throw a good spiral and also does not have amazing accuracy. He is supposed to all of a sudden be able to do that out of the blue? I am not saying it could not happen, but the odds are against it from happening. Who wouldn't want that monster at QB though, so big and so athletic. Hopefully he can make it but I doubt it, but people will push it and never even try him at WR, a position he could potentially be better at for a longer period of time than QB. Only time will tell but I do not believe he is anywhere close to McNabb, the standard as far as athletic quarterbacks go and yes it is because of his throwing arm overall.

They are not set opinions, they change and players move up and down constantly. I totally agree a player could be awesome one year and be horrible the next. That is totally the case, but does not mean one can predict for prediction sake once in awhile. I also really enjoy watching a players career. As can be seen through the thread I made about college players that did not turn out, I really like watching how a prospects career takes shape and trying to see what went wrong and what could have been.


I have not see Korn play in college yet, but I do remember him from a All Star high school game and yes he is pretty skilled. Will wait and see what he is like down the road though, hopefully he is as good as everyone thinks.

As for Taylor, I say to you this, what about Marcus Vick, (a player I forgot to include in the list and I just corrected that error). But remember him on Virginia Tech, I honestly thought that kid can totally play QB, he has a good arm, throws a really accurate ball and obviously is a great athlete. He will take lessons not learned by his brother and possibly be a great project QB in the NFL. Yeah all know how that turned out, turns out he was not all that accurate, too small and ultimately no team wanted him to play QB at all. It is ridiculous but he made just about as dumb of choices as his brother did though in the end.

Now granted is Taylor like the two Vick brothers? Yes he is a lot like them, very quick, can make people miss, is fast and makes plays throwing the ball on the run. But if Marcus Vick could not succeed why would Taylor succeed? He makes plays but really he does not throw that good of a ball and it is all about him being able to move in the pocket and scramble and get yards on broken plays. Sure Taylor can maybe be a QB, but it will be a hard road because his arm is not that great. But you have to love that athletic ability and you want a QB like that, but simply put he might not have the arm, accuracy, leadership or character to be a good QB. Who knows, again this is not fact, but from how other players like him have turned out, seems unlikely he will be able to be a NFL QB for a long time.

To keep this short, I'm glad you clarified your definition of 'athletic quarterbacks' as ones who are a threat running. That helps me see your perspective a lot better, although I do think it is misleading.

Pryor. Who said he was as good as McNabb? Maybe I missed it but I haven't seen anyone make that comparison. It's always Vince Young and it's always based on body type. As for the odds against Pryor, I would actually say they aren't that bad. He will be given a multitude of chances because of what he is capable of as an athlete, he's at a stable program with a reputation for being an NFL factory (perhaps not for quarterbacks, but a pipeline nonetheless) under the guidance of Tressel (maybe not a guru but pretty good with quarterbacks), and he seems fairly level-headed. It's a pretty straight shot to the NFL for him. As for a position change, while wide receiver makes sense for other smaller QBs who compensate via athleticism, Pryor could be a defensive end or linebacker without too much body work. As for being better over a longer period of time at receiver, his size/speed combination is what makes him so special as a quarterback. Granted there aren't many wide receivers of that size and speed, but that athleticism is more of a commodity at quarterback than wide receiver. If he has a chance to become a quarterback, he'll need college to do it. If it doesn't pan out, it has been shown that the transition from quarterback to wide receiver is doable, whereas the opposite has never been tested because the idea is ludicrous. From Pryor's perspective, there's no point in putting all your eggs in one basket by playing receiver now when the transition could be made later and your draft stock could still be good.

So much for short. Anyway, did you mean 'but does not mean one can not predict for prediction sake once in awhile'? It seems we agree to an extent on the fact that you can evaluate a player at any time, I think I just put more faith in a player's ability to progress than you do.

As for why Taylor can succeed where Marcus Vick failed, the answer is entirely mental. Taylor seems to have his head screwed on pretty tight, whereas Vick was a loose cannon that team's weren't really willing to give a chance, and why should they be? I also thought Taylor threw a pretty good ball from what I saw of him, but I will admit I haven't studied him in detail (I wait for them to become draft eligible, none of that statutory evaluation ish ;)).

BBIB
09-22-2008, 09:38 PM
I like Michael Vick as much as the next guy. However even if you take out the legal troubles he got himself into, he was not doing wonderful in his last few seasons. The team was not winning all that much, and even if they got in the playoffs they did not get very far. I remember before his little Dog incident came out people were upset about his on the field decision making and how he still has not developed into a pocket passer in the NFL. Yes he was successful, so was Culpepper before his injury. Both players though had their issues that their athletic ability could not help them out with. Culpepper was a walking turnover literally. Then you have Vick who just did not seem able to get the ball to the receivers consistently no matter what kind of receivers he had.

I remember the Falcons saying Michael likes throwing to the RB's so they go RB's that could catch passes. Then they said he likes throwing to TE's, so they try to get or resign TE's. Then they said he likes throwing to big WR's so they started getting big targets. Honestly just get the receivers the ball, no matter who it is.

Just look at Roddy White, Vick had him on his team yet White looks much better just because Matt Ryan a rookie QB is throwing him the ball? Granted his improvement and maybe it was just experience but then again maybe it was who was throwing him the ball.

Personality and character also comes into play here, and despite being a real competitive and tough kid. He just did not seem like a real leader for the Falcons and obviously made absolutely horrible choices off the field which led him to his current jail time. If he comes back will a team try him back at QB? Maybe, but why when his decision making on and off the field suck so much, why not put him at WR? Because clearly we are not talking about a McNabb type of person here in Vick. Maybe he converted to something in prison though and got his head out of his butt.

Vick didn't live up to the hype of changing the QB position but he was a top 10 QB in this league.

Not in terms of passer rating and completion percentage but in terms of total yardage, TD/TO ratio, and win percentage he was.

And honestly it's very impressive he ranked in the top 10 in those categories considering how inferior his cast was to everyone else.

Roddy White is not the same WR that he was when Vick was on the team. With an incompetent Greg Knapp playcalling and before Hue Jackson the guy who turned his career around, Roddy White was looking like a bust.

Many people used to blame Vick for the receiver woes but surely enough every WR that left Atlanta failed to do better when they got another QB. The reason is because it wasn't Vick.

Vick was part of the solution not the problem. With him the Falcons were a threat to make the post-season every year. Without him they were a threat to get the #1 overall pick.

He was a 3 time Pro Bowler and in 2006 had a career high in passing TDs. Vick was just starting to get it as a QB too before he got caught dogfighting. He was finally putting the time in the film room. He was giddy about having an offensive system that would finally allow him to audible (yes he was handcuffed in a system that did not even let him audible), and one that would finally let him throw the ball down the field which is what he does best in the passing game.

I honestly think Eli Manning was holding up Michael Vick's trophy last season.

Race for the Heisman
09-22-2008, 09:41 PM
These players in college, outside of the obvious ones but all of these guys I thought had great potential as a QB in the NFL and as prospects they were just cool. All athletic QB's with very strong throwing arms and so much potential!


Michael Bishop-
http://collegian.catzone.com/images/sptb.ksubishoprun.jpgWonderful on the field leader, very physical strong, and threw a really nice football and had a monster arm. Always remember him against A&M in the title game of the conference and he easily made a 80-85 yard throw. Such a promising prospect, but clearly did not make good choices and despite his big arm, was not accurate enough with that arm.


Ronald Curry
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/2000/10/21/001232167.jpg
He had one of the most impressive releases ever, just a short little flick and the ball went flying. A great athlete obviously being a pretty solid basketball PG in his own right as well. Just really never put it all together on the football field but has a good enough work ethic and is a good enough athlete to make the change to WR in the NFL.


Isaiah Stanback
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dNjcIt2ue2zs/610x.jpg
What an amazing prospect, a wonderful athlete and so large as a man. Very strong, great speed and again had a monster arm. And yes again despite his arm strength was not accurate and did not throw the ball with touch. Think of him as a QB though, what damage he could have done.


Reggie McNeal
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/10/25/sports/25am.jpg
Another player who was fast as can be, made him seem like the next Michael Vick like prospect with how literally fast he was. Then his throwing arm was outstanding but again did not have the accuracy at all and made some great throws then made horrible throws. Was not consistent enough at all as a QB. What a prospect though, him and Vince Young were ontop of the Texas world, too bad McNeal did not even have much college success even.


Common theme here is accuracy, all of these QB's did not throw the ball with good touch and were not all that accurate when having to put the ball in tight spaces. Oh and the standard decision making abilities were all somewhat suspect. But such amazing prospects, and so fun to dream of what they could be instead of seeing what they are. Thus I totally see, and even sometimes do, view a QB who is athletic as more promising potentially then a standard solid QB with a equal throwing arm.

Just to cover this really quick, you comment on how these players are 'amazing' prospects. What I would say is they have good enough athletic ability to succeed in the NFL and be on the elite end of quarterbacks in terms of athleticism, but at the same time they are more in the good category of athleticism when compared to most NFL receivers. Then, when you consider the suspect accuracy and decision-making, they really aren't that great of prospects as quarterbacks (athletic ability offsetting mental faculties doesn't work when the mental part is far more important), and they aren't great wide receiver prospects either because the athleticism is typically good but not elite and they have no experience at the position. So I don't really buy the 'amazing' descriptor.

BBIB
09-22-2008, 09:43 PM
As far as dual threat QBs in general, here are some things people need to realize.

Most QBs regardless of style fail in the NFL.

The guys who succeed regardless of style are the guys in good situations.


This is a game where you need a cast around you. If there is turmoil you will struggle. Ask Bulger, Palmer, etc. Guys who look elite when things around them are a-ok. But when things are bad around them, not so hot.

This is because a QB no matter how good is human.

One of the things that hurts dual threat QBs at the next level is how uncreative offensive coordinators are at the NFL level.

There are probably tons of things that work in college that could work in the NFL but the NFL is too conservative to try. For instance, the Wildhog formation.


NFL's idea of creativity for a dual threat QB is a bootleg. But when you run it a 1000 times it is very predictable. Not nearly as dangerous as getting that QB in the shotgun spreading the field with 3-4 WRs opening up the field for receivers to get in space or the QB to make plays with his legs.

BBIB
09-22-2008, 09:46 PM
Tim Tebow and Vince Young are interesting cases because for them to be succesful they have to forget everything that made him succesful in college for the NFL. Vince Younglooks like he is not going to have that succes we will just see for Tebow.

But it is not fair to compare Tebow to Vince Young solely because of the style of QB he is.

I mean how fair would it be if I said Mark Sanchez is doomed to be Matt Leinart. Same type of QB, same system?

There is more than style of QB and system. Tebow is a far better passer than Vince Young. Honestly it's not even close. Vince Young was a WR prospect until his final year in school. Tebow on the other hand was one of the most efficient QBs in college football. He's far more accurate and a far better decision maker than Vince Young.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 10:03 PM
Just to cover this really quick, you comment on how these players are 'amazing' prospects. What I would say is they have good enough athletic ability to succeed in the NFL and be on the elite end of quarterbacks in terms of athleticism, but at the same time they are more in the good category of athleticism when compared to most NFL receivers. Then, when you consider the suspect accuracy and decision-making, they really aren't that great of prospects as quarterbacks (athletic ability offsetting mental faculties doesn't work when the mental part is far more important), and they aren't great wide receiver prospects either because the athleticism is typically good but not elite and they have no experience at the position. So I don't really buy the 'amazing' descriptor.Did you see these players as freshman and sophomores? If you watched them and did not think they were amazing prospects that is ridiculous. They were "amazing" because of the potential they had as possible duel threats. However I say again they could not develop as a passer, you either can or you cannot, all these guys had rocket arms but no touch. Still cannot believe anyone who saw them in college early on were not wildly interesting in the potential in what they could have been being that good of an athlete with that strong of a throwing arm.

He was a 3 time Pro Bowler and in 2006 had a career high in passing TDs. Vick was just starting to get it as a QB too before he got caught dogfighting. He was finally putting the time in the film room. He was giddy about having an offensive system that would finally allow him to audible (yes he was handcuffed in a system that did not even let him audible), and one that would finally let him throw the ball down the field which is what he does best in the passing game.Well you clearly think he was going out ontop when this dog thing went down, but I do remember him year after year saying he finally got the passing game down and still not really being all that successful. But yes he was a Pro Bowl talent and who knows what could have happened but the choices he made on and off the field might have destroyed his career. And if it did end with that and he was never able to get back into the NFL, I would consider his career a failure considering what he could have been.


(I wait for them to become draft eligible, none of that statutory evaluation ish ).Screw that, it is all about jumping on the band wagon early and then saying I told you so to you all. Still love that I called out Larry Fitzgerald as a freshman saying he would be a great player and he kind of turned out ok. Not right all of the time but I am some of the time, love seeing players before they peak and everyone knows who they are.



I also thought Taylor threw a pretty good ball from what I saw of him, but I will admit I haven't studied him in detail Exactly, but so did Marcus Vick, I loved how he threw the ball. The only thing Taylor has, if your correct is a better head on his shoulders and yes that can make all the difference. Athletically and arm wise though he was is not much more than what Marcus Vick was and that kind of scares me.

BBIB
09-22-2008, 10:03 PM
These players in college, outside of the obvious ones but all of these guys I thought had great potential as a QB in the NFL and as prospects they were just cool. All athletic QB's with very strong throwing arms and so much potential!


Michael Bishop-
http://collegian.catzone.com/images/sptb.ksubishoprun.jpgWonderful on the field leader, very physical strong, and threw a really nice football and had a monster arm. Always remember him against A&M in the title game of the conference and he easily made a 80-85 yard throw. Such a promising prospect, but clearly did not make good choices and despite his big arm, was not accurate enough with that arm.


Ronald Curry
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/image/2000/10/21/001232167.jpg
He had one of the most impressive releases ever, just a short little flick and the ball went flying. A great athlete obviously being a pretty solid basketball PG in his own right as well. Just really never put it all together on the football field but has a good enough work ethic and is a good enough athlete to make the change to WR in the NFL.


Isaiah Stanback
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0dNjcIt2ue2zs/610x.jpg
What an amazing prospect, a wonderful athlete and so large as a man. Very strong, great speed and again had a monster arm. And yes again despite his arm strength was not accurate and did not throw the ball with touch. Think of him as a QB though, what damage he could have done.


Reggie McNeal
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2004/10/25/sports/25am.jpg
Another player who was fast as can be, made him seem like the next Michael Vick like prospect with how literally fast he was. Then his throwing arm was outstanding but again did not have the accuracy at all and made some great throws then made horrible throws. Was not consistent enough at all as a QB. What a prospect though, him and Vince Young were ontop of the Texas world, too bad McNeal did not even have much college success even.


Common theme here is accuracy, all of these QB's did not throw the ball with good touch and were not all that accurate when having to put the ball in tight spaces. Oh and the standard decision making abilities were all somewhat suspect. But such amazing prospects, and so fun to dream of what they could be instead of seeing what they are. Thus I totally see, and even sometimes do, view a QB who is athletic as more promising potentially then a standard solid QB with a equal throwing arm.

Here's the thing, most dual threat guys get lumped into this category but the reason why these guys could not play QB at the next level is for the same reason why most traditional guys can't: They did not even produce in NCAA!.

Guys like Ronald Curry and Stanback put up pathetic numbers in college. Neither even average a passing TD a game their final year. Curry's completion percentage was as low as 46% . These guys didn't even throw double digit touchdown passes their final year.

Of course someone who is that inept offensively in college isn't going to make it in the pros.

It's guys like that who give someone like Dennis Dixon a bad name and why he never even gets a chance. Then again Dixon didn't perform until his final year and that type of late bloomer guy is not exactly that successful. See Vince Young

The winning formula they say for a QB is 37 starts with 60% completion percentage I hear the worse guy with that combo to come out of the 1st round is Eli Manning.

illmatic74
09-22-2008, 10:08 PM
But it is not fair to compare Tebow to Vince Young solely because of the style of QB he is.

I mean how fair would it be if I said Mark Sanchez is doomed to be Matt Leinart. Same type of QB, same system?

There is more than style of QB and system. Tebow is a far better passer than Vince Young. Honestly it's not even close. Vince Young was a WR prospect until his final year in school. Tebow on the other hand was one of the most efficient QBs in college football. He's far more accurate and a far better decision maker than Vince Young.Tebow athlecticaly and physically are very similar. Tebow looks just as raw as Young was at this age. Tebow is a better passer now but has a slower release than Young.

BBIB
09-22-2008, 10:09 PM
Tebow athlecticaly and physically are very similar. Tebow looks just as raw as Young was at this age. Tebow is a better passer now but has a slower release than Young.

Come on dude that's absurd. Tebow as a first year starter looked better than Vince Young looked as a passer as a RS-Junior. Tebow is a far better passer than Vince Young which obviously is very important at the next level.

There is no comparison between the two besides the style of offense. Vince Young is a better athlete than Tebow. Tebow is a much better passer. He has by far a better chance of succeeding at the next level.

BBIB
09-22-2008, 10:12 PM
It's pretty obvious that more teams are using these athletic QBs in NCAA, but the NFL is a whole new ball game. With Vick not in the league anymore, Vince Young is the face of the dual threat QB and he looks like a complete bust.

With the dual threat QB being a minority, just like any minority group, when one member does something it unfortunately is used to speak more than for the individual.

It's going to take a Tebow or Pryor to have success in the NFL to wipe away what Vince Young has done. In fact I think the future of the dual threat QB in the NFL rests solely on those two QBs. I don't think another guy outside of those will even get a shot. But with the star status of those two guys they will get a shot for sure.

Race for the Heisman
09-22-2008, 10:14 PM
Screw that, it is all about jumping on the band wagon early and then saying I told you so to you all. Still love that I called out Larry Fitzgerald as a freshman saying he would be a great player and he kind of turned out ok. Not right all of the time but I am some of the time, love seeing players before they peak and everyone knows who they are.

I will say that I do have a category of classification I have for certain players, regardless of age/class, where I believe they will succeed. I currently have A.J. Greene, Julio Jones, and Jimmy Clausen in the category. I'm not saying any will be an NFL success, but I this is as close as I get to saying: "I guarantee this player will succeed in college and be a legitimate NFL prospect." I'm pretty sure I'd lump Devon Kennard in this category as well, although he is still a high school prospect.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 10:14 PM
Come on dude that's absurd. Tebow as a first year starter looked better than Vince Young looked as a passer as a RS-Junior. Tebow is a far better passer than Vince Young which obviously is very important at the next level.

There is no comparison between the two besides the style of offense. Vince Young is a better athlete than Tebow. Tebow is a much better passer. He has by far a better chance of succeeding at the next level.I agree they are not very similar. However I question if Young is a better athlete. Tebow is stronger I bet easily, he probably runs just as fast as Vince does also. Only difference is Vince is a long strider and is obviously taller. Tebow though if you consider overall strength is much more strong/athletic than Young. And yes Tebow did basically nothing as a sophomore but yes Tebow as a passing being a sophomore was worlds ahead of Young as a sophomore passing.

Ozzy
09-22-2008, 10:18 PM
Jimmy Clausen in the category. I'm not saying either will be an NFL success, but I this is as close as I get to saying: "I guarantee this player will succeed in college and be a legitimate NFL prospect."Really? His brother Casey is basically my most hated college football quarterback ever, he threw the most ugly ball in history yet people still loved him and thought he could play in the league. Jimmy is more polished than his brothers, but seriously all Clausen's to me are losers until proven otherwise. I would be kind of shocked if Jimmy is some out of this world NFL player.

Race for the Heisman
09-22-2008, 10:19 PM
I agree they are not very similar. However I question if Young is a better athlete. Tebow is stronger I bet easily, he probably runs just as fast as Vince does also. Only difference is Vince is a long strider and is obviously taller. Tebow though if you consider overall strength is much more strong/athletic than Young. And yes Tebow did basically nothing as a sophomore but yes Tebow as a passing being a sophomore was worlds ahead of Young as a sophomore passing.

I don't know about athleticism, but whenever this comparison arises all I can think is that Tebow is a much better passer than Vince Young was at the same stage and that regardless of 40 time, Young is a far superior runner when compared to Tebow. The former is more important for the NFL, so I would give Tebow better odds to succeed in NFL.

Race for the Heisman
09-22-2008, 10:23 PM
Really? His brother Casey is basically my most hated college football quarterback ever, he threw the most ugly ball in history yet people still loved him and thought he could play in the league. Jimmy is more polished than his brothers, but seriously all Clausen's to me are losers until proven otherwise. I would be kind of shocked if Jimmy is some out of this world NFL player.

I don't know anything about his brothers and for the record I think he's an absolute twat. But when I was watching him getting pasted last year, I couldn't help but take notice of him for other reasons than that. As of last year I would say he has 'it,' although I haven't seen Notre Dame this year (I was planning on catching the Notre Dame game against Michigan State, but I was away from televisions from noon to midnight on Saturday). And as I said, I'm not guaranteeing NFL success. I would have to see his specific situation because I think that is of paramount importance, but I would go on record as saying he will become a great college player and a good NFL prospect.

BBIB
09-22-2008, 10:23 PM
I hold my judgment on guys until I see them fail with a good supporting cast on the offense, something Mike Vick and Vince Young haven't really had IMO.

Great point. Again regardless of style of QB it's the type of situation you are thrust in.

Kordell Stewart is really the only dual threat QB who got a shot with a great cast. And boy was it a good one, at one point they had Plaxico Burress, Hines Ward, and Randle El. But Stewart was not very good, although I believe the Steelers made the AFCCG one year.


Guys like Vick and Young did not exactly have the greatest of casts.

Neither did Randall Cunningham for most of his career. In fact he's the other guy I can think of who had a cast and the Vikings offense that year was the most prolific in NFL history until last year's Pats. Oh and of course McNabb the one year he got T.O. went to the Super Bowl.


I think in most cases these teams short change the cast around these QBs just taking their athleticism for granted vs a pocket passer where you are forced to put talent around them. Not to mention there hasn't been great fortune. Vick landing on a cursed franchise like the Falcons with the completely inept decisions like Mora Jr at coach, saying no to Randy Moss, etc.

illmatic74
09-22-2008, 10:36 PM
Come on dude that's absurd. Tebow as a first year starter looked better than Vince Young looked as a passer as a RS-Junior. Tebow is a far better passer than Vince Young which obviously is very important at the next level.

There is no comparison between the two besides the style of offense. Vince Young is a better athlete than Tebow. Tebow is a much better passer. He has by far a better chance of succeeding at the next level.
If you are going to use numbers Young led the nation in pass efficiency his junior year. Both Young and Tebow's stats were inflated by the spread.

BBIB
09-22-2008, 10:57 PM
If you are going to use numbers Young led the nation in pass efficiency his junior year. Both Young and Tebow's stats were inflated by the spread.

And in his first two years he had as many picks as TDs. Tebow is far ahead of the curve. It's not just a number thing, it's a accuracy and decision making thing.

VY was far more dependent on his mobility than Tebow.


I don't know about athleticism, but whenever this comparison arises all I can think is that Tebow is a much better passer than Vince Young was at the same stage and that regardless of 40 time, Young is a far superior runner when compared to Tebow. The former is more important for the NFL, so I would give Tebow better odds to succeed in NFL.

Exactly more reasons why they are different.
Tebow has superior strength, Vince Young has superior elusiveness.

THey are really not the same at all.

Saints-Tigers
09-23-2008, 02:01 AM
I like how you make excuses for Vick, but Vince is a complete bust after 2 seasons.

You are by far the finest atlanta homer to grace the internet in quite some time.

Both guys were given crap at receiver, and shoddy pass protection, and everyone likes to blame them for it.

mqtirishfan
09-23-2008, 10:20 AM
Really? His brother Casey is basically my most hated college football quarterback ever, he threw the most ugly ball in history yet people still loved him and thought he could play in the league. Jimmy is more polished than his brothers, but seriously all Clausen's to me are losers until proven otherwise. I would be kind of shocked if Jimmy is some out of this world NFL player.

Right. Those ESPN, Rivals and Scout people, along with just about every team in the nation that offered him a scholarship know nothing.

Ozzy
09-23-2008, 10:23 AM
Just added to the list two more prospects. However these players made switches in college, from WR to QB. Thompson could have possibly made it I think if he could of had his entire career playing QB at Oklahoma.

Syvelle Newton
Paul Thompson

Nonetheless, again it was to win both of these teams put these players at QB and they were better off because of it despite them not being standard QB's.

Sniper
09-23-2008, 10:51 AM
Did you really qualify Steve Threet as a dual threat QB?

BBIB
09-23-2008, 10:54 AM
I like how you make excuses for Vick, but Vince is a complete bust after 2 seasons.

You are by far the finest atlanta homer to grace the internet in quite some time.

Both guys were given crap at receiver, and shoddy pass protection, and everyone likes to blame them for it.

Vick was a far better QB than Vince Young man. Vick never had negative TD/INT ratio. Notice how the Titans are winning without Vince YOung?

It was the opposite for the Falcons. Vick was the only player who gave the Falcons a shot at winning. The Titans won in spite of Vince Young with their elite defense.

Sniper
09-23-2008, 02:33 PM
Really? His brother Casey is basically my most hated college football quarterback ever, he threw the most ugly ball in history yet people still loved him and thought he could play in the league. Jimmy is more polished than his brothers, but seriously all Clausen's to me are losers until proven otherwise. I would be kind of shocked if Jimmy is some out of this world NFL player.

A) Don't put apostrophes in front of the s in a plural word. You don't need it. Next time you think of doing that, just don't. Ever. For any reasons.

B) It's unfair to generalize Jimmy Clausen based off what his brothers have done. I mean, I'm possibly the biggest ND basher on here, but Clausen, when not forced to throw in 0.00000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds, throws a decent ball and could develop into a fine QB.