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CC.SD
09-29-2008, 01:16 PM
Here are a couple of my thoughts from this weeks games:

-Uh, hello, the ESPN Favre love is 100% deserved. This guy threw 6 touchdowns and looked like a hall of famer doing it! Great QB performances are what this league is all about.

-This is it, I'm officially on the record: AD is better than LT at this moment. His athleticism and pure bulldoggedness are joys to watch and it's great for the league. That said, Ladainian's still hurt and yet offered up a heroic new chapter in his book, "How I spent my entire career dumping on the Raiders."

-Jason Campbell, I underestimated you. Performances like that are the kind that make you take a second look and realize this guy has all the tools and if he's getting the production too, that's a very good QB in this league.

-Wow Andy Reid. 4 tries from the goal line and nothing when you're down by 4--I'm not gonna critique his choice of plays, he's spent enough time hearing that he should run the ball more. Forget the play calling, your guys have to PRODUCE from that range, period. No excuses. Gorgeous stand by the Bears. Best defensive sequence I've seen this year so far.

-I'm guessing no Cutler love after the Broncos got whacked by the Chiefs. I said a while ago that I didn't think LJ was done: this guy needs to be traded to a team that's not completely rebuilding, he's going to raise their draft pick by winning games they don't want to really win. That said, good job!

-For a while there it looked like Orton might just be the QB of the future in Chicago. Then reality set in. I feel so bad for the Bears D. Aside from when they get bounced around by injuries, they have really held up their end of the bargain when it comes to pursuing a championship, and management just cannot get it together and find them a signal caller. It's more than a joke, it's getting to be a waste of some seriously great careers.

-Welcome back Jamal Williams. 6 tackles, several behind the line of scrimmage, and a sack, against a Raider running game that was supposed to be kind of threatening. Jamal has been working the rust off and getting better each of these last 4 games, and he was dominant yesterday. That's it for my homer comments.

-Titans...just go away. That D is too nasty, and it was last year as well. In this crazy year it might be the X factor that gets them through the playoffs and into the big show. I think Kerry Collins will start to show his stripes eventually, but for now just ride that crazy train! Chad Pennington needs to be on this team next year. The D is too good for an inconsistent player like VY to drag them down. Solid drives and Bironas will take them very far with a D like that.

-Deal Vince to the Texans where the unadulterated and completely justified man love the city of Houston has for him will magically repair his ego and confidence. Anyone else remember the crowd cheering as Vince beat them a couple years ago? Yeah, they're ready for him.

-Hochuli, AGAIN?

-David Garrard silencing the doubters yet again. Is he a game manager? Yeah. But he's probably the best in the business at it. The Jags are not buried yet.

-Bengals may have convinced me to believe in karma. Them and Earl Hickey.

-Tonight's game: the UGLY BOWL!

comahan
09-29-2008, 01:20 PM
Vince? Really? Id rather jump off of a cliff. Actually, i'll take that one step further. Yes, from suicide.

Id rather have DAVID CARR back.

Vince was a god in college, and I love the guy. But he's simply a terrible NFL QB. Yes, worse than Schaub and Sage. And Collins.

umphrey
09-29-2008, 01:29 PM
Here are a couple of my thoughts from this weeks games:

-Uh, hello, the ESPN Favre love is 100% deserved. This guy threw 6 touchdowns and looked like a hall of famer doing it! Great QB performances are what this league is all about.
Yes, he deserves praise. Yes, he played the Cardinals. They were still throwing deep up 49-35. It was a very good performance by Favre. It's not going to happen without these perfect circumstances though. So the praise is deserved but expect it to only last a week.

-This is it, I'm officially on the record: AD is better than LT at this moment. His athleticism and pure bulldoggedness are joys to watch and it's great for the league. That said, Ladainian's still hurt and yet offered up a heroic new chapter in his book, "How I spent my entire career dumping on the Raiders."
I agree. I think he was better than LT last year too. LT runs soft nowadays and AP runs like a hungry rookie. I've always said that running backs don't need time to mature. They are probably even better when younger. Experience only teaches them pass blocking skills, the little things you don't notice and that don't affect production much.

-Jason Campbell, I underestimated you. Performances like that are the kind that make you take a second look and realize this guy has all the tools and if he's getting the production too, that's a very good QB in this league.
Every time I see Campbell play I'm impressed with him. If he had better coaching and especially play calling he could be up there in the top 10 QBs easily.

-Wow Andy Reid. 4 tries from the goal line and nothing when you're down by 4--I'm not gonna critique his choice of plays, he's spent enough time hearing that he should run the ball more. Forget the play calling, your guys have to PRODUCE from that range, period. No excuses. Gorgeous stand by the Bears. Best defensive sequence I've seen this year so far.
It makes absolutely no sense to me why you wouldn't put the ball in McNabb's hands a MINIMUM of 1 play in that situation, especially given the defense and Westbrook's injury. He really used the weaknesses and hid the strengths of his team there.

-I'm guessing no Cutler love after the Broncos got whacked by the Chiefs. I said a while ago that I didn't think LJ was done: this guy needs to be traded to a team that's not completely rebuilding, he's going to raise their draft pick by winning games they don't want to really win. That said, good job!
True, but they probably won't get what their looking for out of a running back who has taken such a beating. Plus it might be useful to keep him around to ease the mind of a developing quarterback.

-For a while there it looked like Orton might just be the QB of the future in Chicago. Then reality set in. I feel so bad for the Bears D. Aside from when they get bounced around by injuries, they have really held up their end of the bargain when it comes to pursuing a championship, and management just cannot get it together and find them a signal caller. It's more than a joke, it's getting to be a waste of some seriously great careers.
I'm a pretty big Orton supporter. I think the rest of their offense except Forte is pretty dismal though. Orton is no stud but he runs the offense decently I think.

-Titans...just go away. That D is too nasty, and it was last year as well. In this crazy year it might be the X factor that gets them through the playoffs and into the big show. I think Kerry Collins will start to show his stripes eventually, but for now just ride that crazy train! Chad Pennington needs to be on this team next year. The D is too good for an inconsistent player like VY to drag them down. Solid drives and Bironas will take them very far with a D like that.
I'm not sure that Kerry Collins isn't the better play for them at this moment. I would have said that before the VY depression thing came out.

-Hochuli, AGAIN?
Obviously we need penalties like roughing the passer, but I absolutely hate it when they decide a game. If I was a ref I would ignore them in close games in the 4th Q unless really blatant.


Responses above.

WMD
09-29-2008, 01:31 PM
Vince? Really? Id rather jump off of a cliff. Actually, i'll take that one step further. Yes, from suicide.

Id rather have DAVID CARR back.

Vince was a god in college, and I love the guy. But he's simply a terrible NFL QB. Yes, worse than Schaub and Sage. And Collins.

You guys can take Jon Kitna off our hands..

umphrey
09-29-2008, 01:45 PM
Didn't want to start a new thread just for this so another talking point::

That Anguan Boldin injury was ferocious. It hurts seeing him get layed out like that in garbage time. He's one of my favorite non-Packers. He actually got took 2 helmet to helmet hits in about a tenth of a second, the first one knocked his helmet right into the other guy's face.

703SKINS202
09-29-2008, 02:16 PM
Umphrey Zorn is the reason why Campbell is doing so well. Don't forget he was the qb coach in Seattle and him and Campbell have a real nice relationship building right now. He works with him hard everyday in practice and I think it's that and his play calling that is finally showing off Campbell's potential.

comahan
09-29-2008, 02:53 PM
You guys can take Jon Kitna off our hands..

We dont need a QB, at all.

skinzzfan25
09-29-2008, 03:34 PM
Umphrey Zorn is the reason why Campbell is doing so well. Don't forget he was the qb coach in Seattle and him and Campbell have a real nice relationship building right now. He works with him hard everyday in practice and I think it's that and his play calling that is finally showing off Campbell's potential.

More importantly he trusts him. Jason has gone to the line, checked down the play and assessed the defense multiple times this year and it's benefited every time.

6 TDs 0 turnovers and the 4th best passer rating.

Bruce Banner
09-29-2008, 03:37 PM
No offense Skins fans but Zorn has gone from QB coach to overrated very fast.

skinzzfan25
09-29-2008, 03:42 PM
No offense Skins fans but Zorn has gone from QB coach to overrated very fast.

Really?

I mean, everybody had us in the 5-6 game win area and we're half that now. I see us easily getting 10-11 wins this season and contending for a potential wild card spot.

scottyboy
09-29-2008, 03:50 PM
Really?

I mean, everybody had us in the 5-6 game win area and we're half that now. I see us easily getting 10-11 wins this season and contending for a potential wild card spot.

uhm, no. You guys were always pretty much pegged to be in the 7-9 win area. After teh Giants game, even redskins fans were saying how bad Zorn was and how they didn't trust Campbell. my lord how things change, huh?

MetSox17
09-29-2008, 04:07 PM
Hochuli explained to Peppers that his helmet had come in contact with the Qb's, so that was the reason he threw the flag. These guys shouldn't hide their flags late in the game, just because it's late in the game. They have a job to do, and that's protect the players. Speaking of which, i'm expecting a huge fine on whoever it was that hit Anquan Boldin. That was about as Rodney Harrison of a hit as i've seen in the league for a while now. Boldin and the Cardinals are lucky that he wasn't seriously injured.

Babylon
09-29-2008, 04:09 PM
Sure didnt need to watch last nights game to finalize an opinion on Orton. Chicago is going to always be a grind em out team there so i think the type of QB you bring in is key. I think they could have done worse than go after a Donovan McNabb but going into the draft a Tim Tebow would fit in my mind.

Twiddler
09-29-2008, 04:11 PM
Hochuli explained to Peppers that his helmet had come in contact with the Qb's, so that was the reason he threw the flag. These guys shouldn't hide their flags late in the game, just because it's late in the game. They have a job to do, and that's protect the players. Speaking of which, i'm expecting a huge fine on whoever it was that hit Anquan Boldin. That was about as Rodney Harrison of a hit as i've seen in the league for a while now. Boldin and the Cardinals are lucky that he wasn't seriously injured.

Yeah, just watching the replay over a few times it was pretty easily seen that the player is going to get a fine. At least I think.

SeanTaylorRIP
09-29-2008, 05:17 PM
uhm, no. You guys were always pretty much pegged to be in the 7-9 win area. After teh Giants game, even redskins fans were saying how bad Zorn was and how they didn't trust Campbell. my lord how things change, huh?

I never complained about Campbell, in fact since he was a rook I was defending him and saying he had the tools to be a Mcnabb in the league. My complaints after week one were:
1) Zorn was forcing his WCO way too much and that he was a horrible time manager. On 3rd and 10's we were running 5 yard routes. Also our play calling was so predictable. Run, Run, Pass. I even said that none of it was Campbell's fault while everyone was up his bootay. Now after game 4 I am not saying Zorn is savior but he is making huge improvements as a coach. He is letting Jason play the game and has trust in Jason now. Zorn has learned that he can't have it my way or the highway, Jason's strong suit is the vertical passing game, so why not implement it. The scary thing with Jason is that it won't really be until next year and the year after that until he actually grasps the playbook and offensive system.

scottyboy
09-29-2008, 07:29 PM
I never complained about Campbell, in fact since he was a rook I was defending him and saying he had the tools to be a Mcnabb in the league. My complaints after week one were:
1) Zorn was forcing his WCO way too much and that he was a horrible time manager. On 3rd and 10's we were running 5 yard routes. Also our play calling was so predictable. Run, Run, Pass. I even said that none of it was Campbell's fault while everyone was up his bootay. Now after game 4 I am not saying Zorn is savior but he is making huge improvements as a coach. He is letting Jason play the game and has trust in Jason now. Zorn has learned that he can't have it my way or the highway, Jason's strong suit is the vertical passing game, so why not implement it. The scary thing with Jason is that it won't really be until next year and the year after that until he actually grasps the playbook and offensive system.

not you, I know you've been backing Campbell since I've been here. but many other skins fans, especially here, have been on and off the bandwagon.(insert on and off sex joke here....)

703SKINS202
09-29-2008, 07:36 PM
not you, I know you've been backing Campbell since I've been here. but many other skins fans, especially here, have been on and off the bandwagon.(insert on and off sex joke here....)

which ones

scottyboy
09-29-2008, 07:38 PM
which ones

virtually every deadskin fan NOT named STRIP in the gameday thread after the Giants game and all the callers to washington radio stations that following friday-sunday( i was in DC-VA area that weekend...)

703SKINS202
09-29-2008, 09:05 PM
virtually every deadskin fan NOT named STRIP in the gameday thread after the Giants game and all the callers to washington radio stations that following friday-sunday( i was in DC-VA area that weekend...)

There's like 5 skins posters here but you're right. Every fan base has their band wagoners I'm sure people were callin for Eli's head after the 0-2 start. I don't know how people were so down on them after one week we played to a stalemate the second half in the season opener of the super bowl champs. It was Zorn's first game I kept the faith as always.

edit* finally 1k

SeanTaylorRIP
09-29-2008, 09:28 PM
virtually every deadskin fan NOT named STRIP in the gameday thread after the Giants game and all the callers to washington radio stations that following friday-sunday( i was in DC-VA area that weekend...)

That is very true I heard so much crap on the radio from Skins fans after that game proclaiming that Todd Collins would lead this team, made me want to throw up.

HChu
09-29-2008, 09:36 PM
The "fans" who call into the radio shows in the DC area are a joke. I've been a fan of Campbell since the beginning and I do believe he could be very much in the vein of a McNabb, STRIP pretty much listed all my reasons why I was very displeased with Zorn after the first week. But I'm not saying he's gonna lead us to 15-1, I'm just saying he's shown strides in knowing when to take control and when to let Jason just call it at the line. I was very pleased with the game yesterday, but I know that we still got a long road ahead of us and I still think this year the team will be 9-7 and if we're lucky 10-6.

BroadwayJoe10
09-29-2008, 11:22 PM
Hochuli explained to Peppers that his helmet had come in contact with the Qb's, so that was the reason he threw the flag. These guys shouldn't hide their flags late in the game, just because it's late in the game. They have a job to do, and that's protect the players. Speaking of which, i'm expecting a huge fine on whoever it was that hit Anquan Boldin. That was about as Rodney Harrison of a hit as i've seen in the league for a while now. Boldin and the Cardinals are lucky that he wasn't seriously injured.

Eric smith wasn't aiming for the helmet, it wasn't at all malicious, it just was bad luck that kerry rhodes hit Q from the back, which propelled him into smith. I think a fine is justified, because whether or not he meant to do it, it happened and as such, should be punished. However, i think the suspension will most likely be appealed and eventually throw out, it seems as though this is just a knee-jerk PR move by the NFL.

If anyone should be suspended i think it's freakin whisenhunt or the OC for calling that damn dangerous play with less than a minute left to play in the game down 3 scores.

MetSox17
09-30-2008, 12:06 AM
Eric smith wasn't aiming for the helmet, it wasn't at all malicious, it just was bad luck that kerry rhodes hit Q from the back, which propelled him into smith. I think a fine is justified, because whether or not he meant to do it, it happened and as such, should be punished. However, i think the suspension will most likely be appealed and eventually throw out, it seems as though this is just a knee-jerk PR move by the NFL.

If anyone should be suspended i think it's freakin whisenhunt or the OC for calling that damn dangerous play with less than a minute left to play in the game down 3 scores.

I don't care if you're aiming for the helmet or his nuts, if you hit him in the helmet and cause a potential career-threatening injury, you deserve the fine and suspension.

giantsfan
09-30-2008, 12:27 AM
Sure didnt need to watch last nights game to finalize an opinion on Orton. Chicago is going to always be a grind em out team there so i think the type of QB you bring in is key. I think they could have done worse than go after a Donovan McNabb but going into the draft a Tim Tebow would fit in my mind.

I don't care if you're aiming for the helmet or his nuts, if you hit him in the helmet and cause a potential career-threatening injury, you deserve the fine and suspension.

Fine yes, suspension no. It's excessive for a hit that the was pretty clearly not malicious. Sure it happened so there must be some recourse, but to suspend anyone over it is simply too much and the regular suspensions occurring under the Goodell Administration is having a negative effect IMO on the league's image and the level play.

MetSox17
09-30-2008, 12:30 AM
Fine yes, suspension no. It's excessive for a hit that the was pretty clearly not malicious. Sure it happened so there must be some recourse, but to suspend anyone over it is simply too much and the regular suspensions occurring under the Goodell Administration is having a negative effect IMO on the league's image and the level play.

Who the hell cares if it was malicious or not? Whether it was intentional or not, it still could have caused the same amount of damage. The suspension is perfect. If you still need the league to be slapping your hand teaching you how to tackle, you deserve to sit out a game.

aNYtitan
09-30-2008, 12:30 AM
I'm still not ready to give up on Vince yet. The talent is there, he just has to put the pieces together. He has to mature and realize things won't be given to him anymore and that the growing pains are there. Give a call to another QB that was going to get run outta town, Eli "Mr. NY" Manning. The ball is in his court, its his job to do something with it.

Please Vince, time to rekindle the magic, still plenty of time to do so

Jughead10
09-30-2008, 12:42 AM
There's like 5 skins posters here but you're right. Every fan base has their band wagoners I'm sure people were callin for Eli's head after the 0-2 start. I don't know how people were so down on them after one week we played to a stalemate the second half in the season opener of the super bowl champs. It was Zorn's first game I kept the faith as always.

edit* finally 1k

Giants fans have gotten down on Eli in the past (I never did) but not too much after the 0-2 start. That was on the defense. Eli actually had a huge game in Dallas despite tha loss week 1 last year.

giantsfan
09-30-2008, 12:56 AM
Sure didnt need to watch last nights game to finalize an opinion on Orton. Chicago is going to always be a grind em out team there so i think the type of QB you bring in is key. I think they could have done worse than go after a Donovan McNabb but going into the draft a Tim Tebow would fit in my mind.

I'm curious what your opinion of Orton is. I was watching the game with my buddy who's a bears fan and the whole game we were watching we were making fun of the bears offense, we trying to prove a theory that da bears are lucky to average 2 yards a play on offense and that returns are the major chance to score. But after the game both of us had to admit that Orton was actually doing things while moving the offense and not giving the ball away. That said for entertainments sake we both believe Rex Grossman and the "**** it i'm going deep" routine need to be brought back. Although Hester's incessantly running towards any open field that he sees is also highly entertaining.

BlindSite
09-30-2008, 03:00 AM
I'm still not ready to give up on Vince yet. The talent is there, he just has to put the pieces together. He has to mature and realize things won't be given to him anymore and that the growing pains are there. Give a call to another QB that was going to get run outta town, Eli "Mr. NY" Manning. The ball is in his court, its his job to do something with it.

Please Vince, time to rekindle the magic, still plenty of time to do so

I'm almost certain if he was given 2 years to sit and learn behind someone he'd be a super star. Like a lot of QBs he was thrown in too early.

OzTitan
09-30-2008, 03:24 AM
I'm still not ready to give up on Vince yet. The talent is there, he just has to put the pieces together. He has to mature and realize things won't be given to him anymore and that the growing pains are there. Give a call to another QB that was going to get run outta town, Eli "Mr. NY" Manning. The ball is in his court, its his job to do something with it.

Please Vince, time to rekindle the magic, still plenty of time to do so

Lost in all the mess is the fact Vince was well on his way into becomming a better passer. Some people down on Vince like to look at the TD:INT ratio in 2007, but that's all there is for them to look at because, despite his quad and Norm Chow's ineptitude, he improved in every other passing stat, sometimes massively (completion % comes to mind). These same people also tend to completely ignore his rushing threat, which was limited last season, but he still had a few TD's to contribute with his legs. He was definitely a better passer in 07 than 06 and could very well have continued this incline in 08 by now.

I haven't ever had a problem with his passing development, it's right on pace and in tune with expectations. The problem comes with the attitude issues, the real reason he's not getting his job back instantly. It's up to him now to correct them, but people need to keep in mind he's far from done and still a developing QB when it comes to his actual QB play, and stop using this "episode" like it's a stamp on his bust-papers. The guy's career at this point has been a mixture of fantastic displays and pitful displays, with little inbetween. Consistency is almost always an issue for young QB's and if Vince can improve his, he'll be a good QB - it's not like he hasn't shown the ability to be a force in the NFL, all he has to do is do it more often.

MetSox17
09-30-2008, 09:03 AM
I'm almost certain if he was given 2 years to sit and learn behind someone he'd be a super star. Like a lot of QBs he was thrown in too early.

Here's where i disagree. I think you do that with guys that just aren't experienced enough to lead an NFL team. Vince red-shirted his freshman year and started for three years after that. Teams knew what they were getting with Young, and act surprised when they see that he failed so miserably as a passer. His funky throwing motion, happy feet in the pocket and bad reads were there all along.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-30-2008, 09:23 AM
Lost in all the mess is the fact Vince was well on his way into becomming a better passer. Some people down on Vince like to look at the TD:INT ratio in 2007, but that's all there is for them to look at because, despite his quad and Norm Chow's ineptitude, he improved in every other passing stat, sometimes massively (completion % comes to mind). These same people also tend to completely ignore his rushing threat, which was limited last season, but he still had a few TD's to contribute with his legs. He was definitely a better passer in 07 than 06 and could very well have continued this incline in 08 by now.

I haven't ever had a problem with his passing development, it's right on pace and in tune with expectations. The problem comes with the attitude issues, the real reason he's not getting his job back instantly. It's up to him now to correct them, but people need to keep in mind he's far from done and still a developing QB when it comes to his actual QB play, and stop using this "episode" like it's a stamp on his bust-papers. The guy's career at this point has been a mixture of fantastic displays and pitful displays, with little inbetween. Consistency is almost always an issue for young QB's and if Vince can improve his, he'll be a good QB - it's not like he hasn't shown the ability to be a force in the NFL, all he has to do is do it more often.

It's true his comp% went up drastically, but his ypa barely did at all. That just tells me he was checking off more rather than looking deep. Almost to a flaw, actually, as the only QBs with 60+% passing and less ypa than VY were Harrington, Boller, and Campbell. Two first round busts and a young unproven player. It is good that he learned to check off more, but it's obvious he didn't suddenly become incredibly accurate, because his ypa went up by 0.5 despite a 10%+ increase in completion%.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
09-30-2008, 09:32 AM
Here's where i disagree. I think you do that with guys that just aren't experienced enough to lead an NFL team. Vince red-shirted his freshman year and started for three years after that. Teams knew what they were getting with Young, and act surprised when they see that he failed so miserably as a passer. His funky throwing motion, happy feet in the pocket and bad reads were there all along.

I think if you look at cases of when you sit a guy so he can learn, and when he gets good time as a rookie, compared to someone who sits and learns, we see that the guys who get thrown into the fire are far more polarized. David Carr, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, John Elway, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler. And it goes on and on. Guys who sit and learn typically don't fail as badly, but the guys who sit 2 years or more don't seem to be quite as good either. Brady was in second year, as was Favre. Rivers seems to be doing very well though, as does Rodgers.

I think the reason for this though could be that the guys who are thrown in right away are generally first round picks. So they're being drafted because of a shady situation, and get thrown in. Later round picks, however, only get to play if they show themselves to be good, or if their teams QB situation is completely abysmal. The exceptions to the first one are, when they're on a strong team and drafted for the future, or when the incumbent, who has sucked his whole career, decides to become a pro bowler finally(Chargers).

MetSox17
09-30-2008, 09:42 AM
I think if you look at cases of when you sit a guy so he can learn, and when he gets good time as a rookie, compared to someone who sits and learns, we see that the guys who get thrown into the fire are far more polarized. David Carr, Peyton Manning, Ryan Leaf, John Elway, Alex Smith, Jay Cutler. And it goes on and on. Guys who sit and learn typically don't fail as badly, but the guys who sit 2 years or more don't seem to be quite as good either. Brady was in second year, as was Favre. Rivers seems to be doing very well though, as does Rodgers.

I think the reason for this though could be that the guys who are thrown in right away are generally first round picks. So they're being drafted because of a shady situation, and get thrown in. Later round picks, however, only get to play if they show themselves to be good, or if their teams QB situation is completely abysmal. The exceptions to the first one are, when they're on a strong team and drafted for the future, or when the incumbent, who has sucked his whole career, decides to become a pro bowler finally(Chargers).

I've expressed my feelings toward sitting down quarterbacks before, but i'll reiterate them anyhow. I'm all for having a guy sit for a year or two, and learning the system up and down, and having some confidence in his ability and team, but at the end of the day, the biggest factor for me in the success of a quarterback is his surrounding cast. Usually when a guy sits for a few years, it allows the team to develop an offensive line, some decent weapons and a running game (Bengals, Chargers, Packers, Cowboys, Patriots). It's no coincidence that Carson Palmer's play started declining when Rudi Johnson's productivity went down and the offensive line started deteriorating as well.

Like you said, teams that take quarterbacks very high (top fifteen or so picks), are so bad that they're forced to play their guys almost from the get-go. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't, it's really a crap-shoot cause you just can't guess how your quarterback is gonna react to being on a bad team, making bad throws, getting booed, etc. It's really a catch-22 because you can't pass on potential franchise guys (the Carson Palmer's of the world), and you can't really have them sitting on the bench when the guy in front of them is playing awful. So what should teams do? I don't see draft strategies changing any time soon to the point where the attention shifts from QB's, Rb's and WR's get passe don in favor of offensive and defensive linemen. Teams like San Francisco, Houston and Detroit were forced to throw their guys out there cause they had nothing to bank on at the quarterback position. All they could do was throw their guy out there and pray that he developed, but all of those guys had their confidence shot and just never showed advances in their play, becauase their teams were so awful. It's a vicious little circle that's hard to get out of. The only thing i'd recommend is to suck for a few years with a veteran quarterback, while you develop the team and the young one.

OzTitan
09-30-2008, 09:43 AM
It's true his comp% went up drastically, but his ypa barely did at all. That just tells me he was checking off more rather than looking deep. Almost to a flaw, actually, as the only QBs with 60+% passing and less ypa than VY were Harrington, Boller, and Campbell. Two first round busts and a young unproven player. It is good that he learned to check off more, but it's obvious he didn't suddenly become incredibly accurate, because his ypa went up by 0.5 despite a 10%+ increase in completion%.

Actually, a 0.5 YPA increase ain't half bad. At least, it isn't half bad at all when coupled with an 11% completion increase. It's quite significant. 6.7YPA is still quite low, but it's a big improvement over 6.2 when combined with +11%.

Collins is a better downfield thrower for sure, but people seem to firstly overrate Vince's rookie season as a passer, and secondly overlook the fact he actually was a better passer in 07, despite the TD:INT. I can only imagine how poor a passer he would have been in 06 with a damaged quad like he had in 07, because without his legs at full force in 06 he would have been toasted. So there is improvement, and there is still time. As I said, some people seem to think Vince *can't* be a good QB - but he has shown he can, he just can't be consistently. A pretty rare hurdle to overcome after only 2 seasons in the NFL for a polished pocket passer out of college let alone Vince. I just think people shouldn't be so quick to forget Vince could quite easily come back from this and be a better player for it, and that there is still a lot of time. Eli hasn't had a season over an 80 rating in his 4 years and he's meant to be a pocket passer with pedigree. As long as the Titans or Vince don't give up, it's still early days.

aNYtitan
10-01-2008, 12:13 AM
I blame last year all on the Madden Curse...

Just kidding around, but I think the reason people are casting him off is because its the NFL. In no other league are people labeled busts quicker. If you don't produce in your first year, people typically write you off and claim you aren't what people believed you would be when you were drafted. Look at Eli Manning and Mario Williams. Both of them are former number 1 overall picks, both of them struggled their first year, or in Manning's case, first few years. Today, they are considered one of the best at their respective positions. People only write Young off because he still can't make the passing adjustment. It was the same problem Michael Vick had back when he was in the league. Its something that develops over time, and the fact that he lost Norm Chow coming into this season didn't really help. Chow in general really didn't use him to his full capabilities, coming from that pro style offense. I say give him time, ride the Collins train for as long as its a good ride. The Titans can't keep riding him given that he is on the bad side of 30 and his best years are behind him. Surround Young with talent, give him more then sporadic #2 receivers that more then occasionally drop the ball. Grind through with your running game, simplify the game plan and let him do what he can do as of right now. Small quick passes, check downs and scrambles for large gains. All this equals a productive QB, who can lead this team in the future. The long passing play, the quick reads which find the number 3 receiver down near the sidelines, the feeling of a linebacker on your blind side, that all comes with experience.

BlindSite
10-01-2008, 06:00 PM
I've expressed my feelings toward sitting down quarterbacks before, but i'll reiterate them anyhow. I'm all for having a guy sit for a year or two, and learning the system up and down, and having some confidence in his ability and team, but at the end of the day, the biggest factor for me in the success of a quarterback is his surrounding cast. Usually when a guy sits for a few years, it allows the team to develop an offensive line, some decent weapons and a running game (Bengals, Chargers, Packers, Cowboys, Patriots). It's no coincidence that Carson Palmer's play started declining when Rudi Johnson's productivity went down and the offensive line started deteriorating as well.

Like you said, teams that take quarterbacks very high (top fifteen or so picks), are so bad that they're forced to play their guys almost from the get-go. Sometimes it works out, other times it doesn't, it's really a crap-shoot cause you just can't guess how your quarterback is gonna react to being on a bad team, making bad throws, getting booed, etc. It's really a catch-22 because you can't pass on potential franchise guys (the Carson Palmer's of the world), and you can't really have them sitting on the bench when the guy in front of them is playing awful. So what should teams do? I don't see draft strategies changing any time soon to the point where the attention shifts from QB's, Rb's and WR's get passe don in favor of offensive and defensive linemen. Teams like San Francisco, Houston and Detroit were forced to throw their guys out there cause they had nothing to bank on at the quarterback position. All they could do was throw their guy out there and pray that he developed, but all of those guys had their confidence shot and just never showed advances in their play, becauase their teams were so awful. It's a vicious little circle that's hard to get out of. The only thing i'd recommend is to suck for a few years with a veteran quarterback, while you develop the team and the young one.

I understand your point, the franchise wants and need them now etc, etc. However, the franchise still had McNair who could've started the entire year while they developed everyone in the supporting cast. I'm not saying that Vince mechanics, feet, delivery etc could've been fixed in just one year but I think he would be a far more effective NFL QB if he was given a top flight receiver and had a year on the bench to study.

bigbluedefense
10-01-2008, 07:10 PM
i don't know who has a sicker defense, the Titans or the Ravens.


oh and btw, am i the only one who noticed that so far this year, Ray Lewis is having an incredible year?