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MarioPalmer
10-05-2008, 03:17 PM
Even though my Houston Texans played horribly with less than 7 minutes left in the game with a score of 27-10 lead, Mario Williams is my pick for best defensive player in the league. Because of the reasons I will elaborate on you have to recognize Mario as one of the most dynamic defensive players in the NFL. And I wanted to make sure that when you do read the score of the Indianapolis versus Houston game today that you donít have a skewed view of Marioís play. Because, well, he played like the beast he is, while the rest of his team came up short all the way around.

Mario Williams is quite possibly the finest defensive end to watch in the entire league. here else do you get to see a 6'8 291lbs. DE play with this kind of speed, explosion, strength and above all probably the most physically impressive athleticism you may ever see in the entire NFL. Mario had 2 sacks today against the all mighty Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts and at least 4 QB pressures and 1 knockdown. Not to mention the countless times the Colts ran away from him and the times they did they were stuffed. I know there are more productive units out there that have defensive ends that put up similar numbers, but none with the amount of backups and stop gaps that Mario plays with.

Yes, my thread is a monster homer thread, but please, go watch Mario play before commenting on how so and so is getter or so and so is comparable. Itís like watching a perfect player fit that perfect look fit that perfect way of playing. Itís the same way people look at Randy Moss, Orlando Pace, Peyton Manning, LaDainian Tomlinson and Antonio Gates. Fans, coaches, scouts and general managers all look at these guys with that prototypical standard of how a certain position are supposed to look like and are supposed to play like. Thatís the way I see Mario Williams. He looks the part, but more importantly produces like the part.

Mario Williams has what more and more coaches and general managers are looking for in top rated 4-3 defensive ends. He moves like heís only about 245lbs. but weighs in at 290 plus, he has the strength of a defensive tackle but the hands of a defensive end. He is a nightmare for an inexperienced offensive tackle and he is no cake walk for the Pro-Bowl players that he sees in the AFC conference. If you want to know more about what kind of player he is, try to find video of interviews that were of him during his rookie season. I donít know a more doubted, more criticized, more hated player ever to come into the NFL in terms of where he was picked. I canít tell you how many times I went to the mat for him during his rookie and I canít imagine being a #1 overall pick and being called a bust before you even put on the jersey. To Mario though, all the hype of Reggie Bush and Vince Young never got to him, at least no publically, He handled himself excellently and he never got emotional, never got mad and took it out on others, he worked hard, refined his craft and came into the league with his head held high.

We all knew about his mediocre rookie season, but what most donít know is that he played with plantar fasciitis that is an awfully painful issue that effects the heal of the foot, but he still put up a decent sack number and never missed a game, when letís be honest, most rookies would have taken it easy. But he played the last 8 games with the injury and not once used it as an excuse. So the next year, with a full year of NFL training and conditioning vowed to make a superstar impact from a superstar playerÖÖand he did. 14 sacks later, Mario Williams put himself in talks as not just the best DE in football, but in the discussion of being one of the top 5 best defensive players in the NFL. Now, we come to this year. So far Mario has been a dominating monster on a team that is chalked full of nobodies. Take a look at their roster and you will notice that more than half of their starters are leftovers from other teams from the past 2 years. Guys like Jacque Reeves, C.C. Brown, Will Demps and Nick Ferguson. For his LB crew only DeMeco Ryans is an impact player that has the ability to be a game changer, but he more ultra productive than ultra talented. Marlon Greenwood is terrible and Zach Diles is a backup that is forced to start. Anthony Weaver is quite possibly the worst player that starts at the LDE in the NFL. Travis Johnson has solidified himself as a 1rst round bust and Amobi Okoye has yet to come out in his sophomore year and worst yet isnít progressing like a top 10 pick should. Mario is quite literally the best player in the league that almost quite literally plays by all by his lonesome.

I give Mario All-Pro honors simply on the fact that no one scares offensive coordinators and opposing quarerbacks more than Mario regardless of the atrocious talent around him. If you get a chance to watch Mario live or even on TV, I recommend doing so. Youíll be in for a treat.

Bruce Banner
10-05-2008, 03:20 PM
Mario regardless of the atrocious talent around him.

http://clayjeffreys.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/surprised-monkey.jpg

giantsfan
10-05-2008, 03:20 PM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/08272007/photos/giants.jpg
http://www.nancarrow-webdesk.com/warehouse/storage2/2007-w39/img.05684_t.jpg
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/08/27/sports/giants600.jpg

Justin Tuck says hi

Vikes99ej
10-05-2008, 03:20 PM
Abraham is better.

Turtlepower
10-05-2008, 03:21 PM
Demeco Ryans is just as important to the Texans defense as Mario is.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-05-2008, 03:23 PM
I don't think anyone is going to disagree with anything you said except the fact that you're making a proclamation in week 5 of a player's third season in the NFL.

Williams is a fantastic defensive lineman who's doing exactly what the Texans drafted him to do.

scottyboy
10-05-2008, 03:25 PM
I really like what the Texans have as a foundation on D: Mario, Demeco, Dunta. Definately missing a guy or two, but those guys are solid young studs(I know Dunta's hurt, but I love him)

WMD
10-05-2008, 03:27 PM
http://clayjeffreys.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/surprised-monkey.jpg

I love the Down Syndrome monkey picture.

WMD
10-05-2008, 03:28 PM
I really like what the Texans have as a foundation on D: Mario, Demeco, Dunta. Definately missing a guy or two, but those guys are solid young studs(I know Dunta's hurt, but I love him)

Don't forget about Amobi Okoye!

comahan
10-05-2008, 03:31 PM
Don't forget about Amobi Okoye!

Is Okoye a Texan? Hmph, I havent noticed him this year. Gosh.

Dr. Gonzo
10-05-2008, 03:32 PM
http://cowboys.beloblog.com/archives/0803roy.jpg

Roy Williams and his multiple Pro Bowls says hello. How many Pro Bowls has Mario been to? I rest my case.

scottyboy
10-05-2008, 03:35 PM
Don't forget about Amobi Okoye!

i didn't he sucks. (he went to Loserville)

OzTitan
10-05-2008, 03:46 PM
Yes, Mario is great, but he has games where he is basically invisible too much still IMO. Against the Titans, for instance, where he made little if any impact at all. Best defender of the league talk are reserved for guys with a bit more consistency IMO.

UKfan
10-05-2008, 03:48 PM
I really like Mario, and I didn't catch the game, but I gotta say the Colts line has been getting pushed around all year. It's not that impressive against us.

CashmoneyDrew
10-05-2008, 03:48 PM
http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/albert_haynesworth_200311_ap.jpg

scottyboy
10-05-2008, 03:49 PM
http://beat.bodoglife.com/wp-content/uploads/albert_haynesworth_200311_ap.jpg

must I break out the curb-stomp pic?

and he's not even the best defender on your team...

I mean he's a beast and all, but still

giantsfan
10-05-2008, 03:58 PM
I would cream my pants if we got albert in fa and were able to keep spags around. Kiwi - Tuck - Haynesworth - Osi yep, i'm definitely hard just thinking about that group rushing the passer.

CashmoneyDrew
10-05-2008, 03:59 PM
must I break out the curb-stomp pic?

and he's not even the best defender on your team...

I mean he's a beast and all, but still

Yes, he is. When he plays well so does our defense. When he doesn't, well, neither does the defense. He makes our D what it is. As for the curb stomp pic I couldn't care less.

scottyboy
10-05-2008, 04:01 PM
Yes, he is. When he plays well so does our defense. When he doesn't, well, neither does the defense. He makes our D what it is. As for the curb stomp pic I couldn't care less.

I honestly believe Keith Bulluck is your D's(if not teams) best player. I LOVE Bulluck. He does everything right for a 4-3 OLB.

BUT

he is getting up there in age(30 or so I think?) and all those years take a toll on a LB'er, so he may be declining. AH is a beast, no doubt, but I believe Bulluck is better(and yes, it's hard to compare OLB's and DT's...)

619
10-05-2008, 04:04 PM
Can't fault him, Haynesworth and not Bulluck makes their D tick, imo.

OzTitan
10-05-2008, 04:07 PM
lol, Keith Bulluck isn't even the best linebacker on the Titans. He is so-so against the run and isn't very physical these days. No offense, but quit while you're not too deep - Albert Haynesworth is the best Titans defender and it's not even close. KB doesn't sniff the same impact AH has. He is living off reputation to a large degree these days as the awesome OLB that would always get snubbed for the Pro bowl, but the reality is David Thornton is a better tackler, more physical, and about just as quick. Besides, given how much Jim Schwartz relies on the front 4, it would be pretty hard for the Titans D to be good and have a LB as their best player.

Even when AH isn't getting sacks, of which he has 5 in 5 weeks, he is still making a huge impact. That Flacco INT today that sealed the game was his pressure. Saying Keith is a better and more important player is laughable. Perhaps between snaps as a leader, but once the ball is snapped, I'll take AH and leave KB on the sideline rather than the other way around.

CashmoneyDrew
10-05-2008, 04:08 PM
Sorry to Hijack the thread from Mario for a second, but if I was going to rate our top defensive players it would go:
1) Haynesworth
2) Finnegan
3) Bulluck
4) KVB
5) Tie between Griffin and Thornton

soybean
10-05-2008, 04:11 PM
i haven't really followed him this year but hasn't he always done really well against the colts?

giantsfan
10-05-2008, 04:11 PM
Here's my reasoning for Tuck being on Mario's level, Tuck has comparable size and while he isn't as athletic outside he's got that versatility to slide inside and give you a great interior pass rush as well as being a force off the edge. This season he's been our best dlineman and teams have been focusing on him, but he's still been performing and has made life easier on the guys around him, seriously Robbins has that many sacks?

Mario has the tools to be the best defensive player in the league but right now he's where Peppers was as a Sophomore, needing to add consistent domination to his repertoire and not going invisible some games. Not saying Tuck's the leagues best defensive player but he's on par with Mario. Kiwi has yet to really start rush the passer as well as he can so tuck's really not getting much help on that line so I don't buy the reasoning that he's helped by the talent around him that much more than Mario.

robert pancake gallery
10-05-2008, 04:16 PM
anthony macfarland is still a free agent somehow

Number 10
10-05-2008, 04:42 PM
Albert Haynesworth, not close.

bearsfan_51
10-05-2008, 04:43 PM
I must not be watching enough of the Giants, because Tuck as the best defensive player in the league is a ridiculous argument to me. Yes he had a great Superbowl, but best player? I'd rather have Osi.

I dunno...if more than Giants fans start making that argument I might buy it, but I don't see it.

And my vote goes to Haynesworth.

BlindSite
10-05-2008, 04:47 PM
I must not be watching enough of the Giants, because Tuck as the best defensive player in the league is a ridiculous argument to me. Yes he had a great Superbowl, but best player? I'd rather have Osi.

I dunno...if more than Giants fans start making that argument I might buy it, but I don't see it.

And my vote goes to Haynesworth.

I think their implication was he was better than Williams, not necessarily the NFL's best player.

Number 10
10-05-2008, 04:48 PM
I must not be watching enough of the Giants, because Tuck as the best defensive player in the league is a ridiculous argument to me. Yes he had a great Superbowl, but best player? I'd rather have Osi.

I dunno...if more than Giants fans start making that argument I might buy it, but I don't see it.

And my vote goes to Haynesworth.

Tuck is a fine player, but not the best in the league. It's fun to watch him blow by linemen before they even get out of their stances, but he needs to make more of an impact off the edge before I label him in the same tier as Williams-Kampman-Osi.

scottyboy
10-05-2008, 04:48 PM
I must not be watching enough of the Giants, because Tuck as the best defensive player in the league is a ridiculous argument to me. Yes he had a great Superbowl, but best player? I'd rather have Osi.

I dunno...if more than Giants fans start making that argument I might buy it, but I don't see it.

And my vote goes to Haynesworth.


I too would rather have Osi. Tuck needs more time starting and I guess consistancy to be the best in the NFL

giantsfan
10-05-2008, 04:50 PM
I must not be watching enough of the Giants, because Tuck as the best defensive player in the league is a ridiculous argument to me. Yes he had a great Superbowl, but best player? I'd rather have Osi.

I dunno...if more than Giants fans start making that argument I might buy it, but I don't see it.

And my vote goes to Haynesworth.

I'm not making that argument, I'm arguing he's as worthy as Mario Williams at the moment who's also been incredible at times and invisible at times. Tuck has been simply incredible at times this season and less dominant at others, but he's never been completely invisible like Mario still sometimes does, which is why I think that Mario's claim for DPOY is on par with Tuck's.

Haynesworth has my vote as well, I really hope he keeps this level of play up once he signs that long term contract this summer because he's just a joy to watch.

TitanHope
10-05-2008, 04:52 PM
WK 1: 2 sacks
WK 2: Bye
WK 3: 0 sacks
WK 4: 0 sacks
WK 5: 2 sacks

Entering this week's game, Houston's total DEF is 25th in the league, 30th in points allowed, and 27th against the run. Houston's record is 0-4.

He's inconsistent from week to week, plays on a bad defense, and doesn't play for a contendor. Personally, I think he's over-rated. At the end of last year when he got the bulk of his sacks, he tallied a quarter of those sacks when he was blocked by a TE, RB, or unblocked all together. That's partly why he missed the Pro Bowl, though most of it was because he got hot when it was too late to make an effect on the voters.

I think it's funny how before the season started, the Texans were supposed to have a great front seven with Mario, Okoye, Johnson, and Ryans, and all of the sudden he's surrounded by nobodies.

Mario Williams is a very good player now, and has much potential for the future. But, there are other players who are better right now, and Mario's potential doesn't make him presently better than they are. He could very well end up being a Pro Bowl DE, and he'd be deserving of it. But he's not deserving of being crowned the best defensive player in the NFL.

Besides, there are plenty of other freakish defensive players like Super Mario, one of them being Albert Haynesworth. It's his award to lose at this point.

giantsfan
10-05-2008, 04:54 PM
Tuck is a fine player, but not the best in the league. It's fun to watch him blow by linemen before they even get out of their stances, but he needs to make more of an impact off the edge before I label him in the same tier as Williams-Kampman-Osi.

See I don't know if we're ever going to really see Tuck have the impact off the edge that the elite DEs do because his greatest impact is inside as pass rushing UT, that's where he really stands out and can dominate. When Osi gets back next season, hopefully we'll also draft a project DE for depth, Tuck will be able to fill that role with two exceptional pass rushers on the outside which'll do wonders for his consistency at which point he'd have a case for best in the league.

yourfavestoner
10-05-2008, 04:54 PM
must I break out the curb-stomp pic?

and he's not even the best defender on your team...

I mean he's a beast and all, but still

Wait, what....

Albert Haynesworth was the best defensive player in all of football last year. And that has continued into this season as well.

IceKubes
10-05-2008, 05:04 PM
WK 1: 2 sacks
WK 2: Bye
WK 3: 0 sacks
WK 4: 0 sacks
WK 5: 2 sacks

Entering this week's game, Houston's total DEF is 25th in the league, 30th in points allowed, and 27th against the run. Houston's record is 0-4.

He's inconsistent from week to week, plays on a bad defense, and doesn't play for a contendor. Personally, I think he's over-rated. At the end of last year when he got the bulk of his sacks, he tallied a quarter of those sacks when he was blocked by a TE, RB, or unblocked all together. That's partly why he missed the Pro Bowl, though most of it was because he got hot when it was too late to make an effect on the voters.

I think it's funny how before the season started, the Texans were supposed to have a great front seven with Mario, Okoye, Johnson, and Ryans, and all of the sudden he's surrounded by nobodies.

Mario Williams is a very good player now, and has much potential for the future. But, there are other players who are better right now, and Mario's potential doesn't make him presently better than they are. He could very well end up being a Pro Bowl DE, and he'd be deserving of it. But he's not deserving of being crowned the best defensive player in the NFL.

Besides, there are plenty of other freakish defensive players like Super Mario, one of them being Albert Haynesworth. It's his award to lose at this point.

I hate the fact that after today's game I have to come on here to actually defend someone from my team but don't just list the sacks and say he was invisible the other games. Mario had about 5 pressures against Jacksonville in week 4 and got after Kerry Collins the week before that. He is also making plays behind the LOS in the running game at a regular clip. There has not been a game this year that he has been "invisible". If you want to play with stats how about this one: Mario Williams sacks: 4, Rest of the Houston Texans sacks: 1

Having said that, I don't know why the heck this thread was started today. Until the Texans can do something on defense as a whole with more consistency, even if Mario plays absolutely lights out, he does not deserve this type of label.

TitanHope
10-05-2008, 05:17 PM
I hate the fact that after today's game I have to come on here to actually defend someone from my team but don't just list the sacks and say he was invisible the other games. Mario had about 5 pressures against Jacksonville in week 4 and got after Kerry Collins the week before that. He is also making plays behind the LOS in the running game at a regular clip. There has not been a game this year that he has been "invisible". If you want to play with stats how about this one: Mario Williams sacks: 4, Rest of the Houston Texans sacks: 1

I never once said he was invisible. Not once. So don't put words in my mouth.

As for sacks, yeah they don't tell the whole story. But there are tons of players who can hurry a QB. Just like DB's with pass defenses. Good DB's can get those, but the best intercept it as well.

The rest of the Texans' DEF only having 1 sack says what? That Williams is playing at such an elite level that his teammates can't keep up, or that they can't rush the passer and Williams is the only one who can?

Defend your player. That's fine. But don't point me out by putting words in my mouth when I didn't do anything but state reality.

IceKubes
10-05-2008, 05:23 PM
I suppose I saw someone else say invisible earlier in the thread but you might as well have said it. "Inconsistent and over-rated" I believe ARE direct quotes from you so I apologize for misquoting. For the record I think that is crazy talk. I also happen to think Haynesworth is the premier defender in the NFL.

SenorGato
10-05-2008, 06:21 PM
Count me in the Haynesworth crowd. He's just on a different planet from everyone else.

wicket
10-05-2008, 06:53 PM
At the moment I'd also say Haynesworth is the best defensive player (and therefore lineman) around, last year I'd put merriman and urlacher in there as well but with merriman out and urlacher slowly getting old and haynesworth getting ever better he is the man for me. As for defensive ends Mario Williams is right up there. He is prolly the best physical DE but he would be insaine if he had the instincts and the adaptability of a jared allen or a justin tuck.

Babylon
10-05-2008, 07:08 PM
I'd like to say Bob Sanders if he were healthy.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-05-2008, 07:53 PM
I never once said he was invisible. Not once. So don't put words in my mouth.

As for sacks, yeah they don't tell the whole story. But there are tons of players who can hurry a QB. Just like DB's with pass defenses. Good DB's can get those, but the best intercept it as well.

The rest of the Texans' DEF only having 1 sack says what? That Williams is playing at such an elite level that his teammates can't keep up, or that they can't rush the passer and Williams is the only one who can?

Defend your player. That's fine. But don't point me out by putting words in my mouth when I didn't do anything but state reality.

The fact that Mario is the only one who can rush the passer makes it harder on him to do so. They can key in on him because no one else will make any noise. It isn't basketball where SOMEONE has to grab a rebound or get buckets, if no one puts pressure on the QB, he isn't getting sacked.

As for Albert Haynesworth, I'll believe that. The Titans are 5-0 and I can't think of one reason why, other than him. But I do think Mario is the best DE, and have since he exploded onto the scene last year. I personally watched him manhandle Denver, and even though we sucked, I was convinced.

I think it's funny how before the season started, the Texans were supposed to have a great front seven with Mario, Okoye, Johnson, and Ryans, and all of the sudden he's surrounded by nobodies.

At the beginning of the season, The Colts were supposed to be dominant, the Broncos were supposed to suck, the Giants were supposed to be a fluke, and the Bengals were expected to at least have an offense. Get that "at the beginning of the season" **** out of here.

bearsfan_51
10-05-2008, 07:55 PM
As for Albert Haynesworth, I'll believe that. The Titans are 5-0 and I can't think of one reason why, other than him.
All Vince Young does is win games when he's injured.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-05-2008, 07:58 PM
All Vince Young does is win games when he's injured.

He hasn't thrown a pick since week 1!

BamaFalcon59
10-05-2008, 08:02 PM
John Abraham is the man. 7 sacks on the year, should have 8 but there was intentional grounding. The defensive end on the other side of the line has 0 (zero, like the number below one) sacks in 21 career games. He drove back the Packers OT like 4 yards on a run play today, he kills screen and counter pursuit, and last year we lined him up at LB during 3-4 looks, where he covered Maurice Jones Drew and Matt Jones, both 4.3/4.4 second forty yard dash guys, down the field. He also has a blocked punt this year.

John Abraham is the man.

A Perfect Score
10-05-2008, 08:07 PM
F you guys, Ray Lewis is still the best defensive player in the NFL...after watching him last monday against the Steelers, anyone who thinks he cant play anymore is flat out stupid. :)

yay, I can be a homer too!


But for serious, I watched the game. Mario is a beast, but like many have said, I wanna see some more consistency from him before I name him the best defensive player in the NFL.

PACKmanN
10-05-2008, 08:26 PM
Demeco Ryans is just as important to the Texans defense as Mario is.

I disagree, without someone like Mario on that d-line, there wouldn't be any open lanes for Ryans to make plays.

Bruce Banner
10-05-2008, 08:28 PM
I disagree, without someone like Mario on that d-line, there wouldn't be any open lanes for Ryans to make plays.

Wouldn't a terrible defensive line allow the offense to create lanes for running backs? Where they would be met by....linebackers?

Basileus777
10-05-2008, 08:29 PM
The Chargers are currently making the case for Shawne Merriman.

PACKmanN
10-05-2008, 08:37 PM
Wouldn't a terrible defensive line allow the offense to create lanes for running backs? Where they would be met by....linebackers?

My point was that a guy like Mario on that d-line makes it easer for everyone else. So does Albert. They demand double teams on every play, leaving someone else on the d-line or when a linebacker blitz to get blocked by one guy or none.

ATLDirtyBirds
10-05-2008, 08:44 PM
John Abraham is the man. 7 sacks on the year, should have 8 but there was intentional grounding. The defensive end on the other side of the line has 0 (zero, like the number below one) sacks in 21 career games. He drove back the Packers OT like 4 yards on a run play today, he kills screen and counter pursuit, and last year we lined him up at LB during 3-4 looks, where he covered Maurice Jones Drew and Matt Jones, both 4.3/4.4 guys, down the field. He also has a blocked punt this year.

John Abraham is the man.


I'm in full support of this. This year, give me Abraham every day of the week. Haynesworth has been a force though.

Shane P. Hallam
10-05-2008, 09:01 PM
Wouldn't a terrible defensive line allow the offense to create lanes for running backs? Where they would be met by....linebackers?

Lol, you act like LBs don't move and try and stuff the run sometimes :P

SenorGato
10-05-2008, 09:05 PM
To help out the OP, I do buy that Mario Williams will one day be the NFL's best defensive player.

He's that talented, and that nasty.

Theres alot of competition for young Mario. That DeMarcus Ware guy didn't even get a mention but besides for Haynesworth...

And Falcons fan...Enjoy Abe until his pinky nail breaks. Sick, sick talent...

Basileus777
10-05-2008, 09:05 PM
Wouldn't a terrible defensive line allow the offense to create lanes for running backs? Where they would be met by....linebackers?

Where the linebackers would be blocked by olineman/tight ends getting to the 2nd level....

keylime_5
10-05-2008, 09:08 PM
he's right, Mario might be the best. Lots of great DEs in the game today, but none is any better than Mario. I think the DT from Tennessee Haynesworth is the best defender I've seen this year, Mario is right there too.

Malaka
10-05-2008, 09:10 PM
Where the linebackers would be blocked by olineman/tight ends getting to the 2nd level....

Yeah, exactly what happens on my high school football team the guard/tight end is always up my damn ass.

BamaFalcon59
10-05-2008, 09:12 PM
To help out the OP, I do buy that Mario Williams will one day be the NFL's best defensive player.

He's that talented, and that nasty.

Theres alot of competition for young Mario. That DeMarcus Ware guy didn't even get a mention but besides for Haynesworth...

And Falcons fan...Enjoy Abe until his pinky nail breaks. Sick, sick talent...



He really is unbelievably talented. He was injured in his first season with us, but since then he has been great.

If only we had another pass rush threat.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-05-2008, 09:44 PM
Wouldn't a terrible defensive line allow the offense to create lanes for running backs? Where they would be met by....linebackers?

It lets the offensive line get past the first level. Where they would lock up with... linebackers?

Bruce Banner
10-05-2008, 09:54 PM
It lets the offensive line get past the first level. Where they would lock up with... linebackers?

I'm assuming the d-line actually locks them up somewhat.

gsorace
10-05-2008, 10:10 PM
Haynesworth = league MVP

HUGH!
10-05-2008, 10:18 PM
hes good but nowhere near as dominate as ted washington was.

MarioPalmer
10-05-2008, 10:50 PM
Well, I would have been much more hyped about Haynesworth, but showing up 5 years into your carreer when your in contract years doesn't exactly excite me. Is he playing the best RIGHT NOW? Yes, but is he the best defender and is he the best defender to buld your team around considering age, position, and overall accomplishments? No, I love Haynesworth, but the guy didn't and hasn't shown up until last year. This was a guy who should have been on the same level as Marcus Stroud and Kris Jenkins and Kevin Williams as the best DT in the league and he wasn't, he wasn't even close. This was a guy who at one time was being considered a player that was never going to live up to his potential, then BOOM! last year comes and he finally relizes he's at a cross roads in his carreer. I think Albert asked himself, "Do I play like I have the last 5 years and completely leave way to much to be desired and not get paid or do I go out there and play hard and play to the whistle and play to my ability so that I can get a monster contract?" I'm sorry, but showing up this late in your career doesn't make you the best player and I feel that the Titans felt the same way I did or they would have signed him to a big contract.

I look at the overall body of work, and thats what my thread was about. Mario has been the man from day one, and anyone who said that he's not the best defender on his team, then you don't watch the Texans and you don't know what your talking about. Pro-Bowl is a joke, everyone knows this, Vince Young goes his rookie year by default but he still is considered a Pro-Bowl player. I wouldn't consider him a Pro-Bowl player, would you? Point proven. As for not playing consistently? Sorry, but if you have watched the Texans you would know that he is the only one that plays consistently, also, someone said he doesn't show up against the Titans, I would like you to go back and watch both of last years games, and tell me what you think. Especially the game at Houston.

Also, yes this is his third year, thats my point, how many dominant defenders that are on the line that can be this domianant on the line at this point in their carreer and, and his ceiling not even being close to being reached. Thats the amazing part, the guy is only 23 years-old. 23 people, most players don't reach their prime till they are 26, 27 or 28 and he is at this level at 23.

As for that defensive line and the hype they got. Only was Okoye supposed to be a beast this year. Travis Johnson has never been on that level and he has been considered a bust for the past 3 years. Trust me, nobody has any confidence in Johnson and Anthony Weaver is garbage, thus the signing of Colvin in the off-season, who by the way is even worse then Weaver if thats possible. So please, nobody was saying this line was super, it was just Mario and Amobi and Amobi hasn't shown up at all. Also, if you notice, Mario is doubled, chipped and even tripled on some plays virtually all the time. It's unreal how talented he is and how unbelievably athletic he is.

Tale is on the tape and I've started to TiVo ever Texan game for this reason.

Bruce Banner
10-05-2008, 10:56 PM
Well, I would have been much more hyped about Haynesworth, but showing up 5 years into your carreer when your in contract years doesn't exactly excite me.

My thoughts.

d34ng3l021
10-05-2008, 11:05 PM
I am pretty sure everyone is aware of Mario Williams' dominance. Everyone would probably have him as the first defensive player to pick if you were starting a franchise.

I might consider Haloti Ngata, but only for the tiniest bit. There is a lot of young dominant talent in the league right now. Mario Williams, Joe Thomas, Adrian Peterson are the stars of tomorrow. Its nice seeing them dominate at such a young age.

Vox Populi
10-05-2008, 11:06 PM
Either way he is throwing linemen around like they are little girls and just cause its a contract year doesn't mean he isn't the best defensive player in the league right now.

The MVP award has nothing to do with what he did earlier in his career (granted a great career before that certainly helps with the extra exposure..) and you are clearly saying Mario is the best now, not 3 years ago, or else your point is ********... Maybe he hasn't been the best over the past 3 years, but it sure as hell hasn't been Mario either.

The past vs. present crap has nothing to do with this thread...

MarioPalmer
10-05-2008, 11:09 PM
I am pretty sure everyone is aware of Mario Williams' dominance. Everyone would probably have him as the first defensive player to pick if you were starting a franchise.

I might consider Haloti Ngata, but only for the tiniest bit. There is a lot of young dominant talent in the league right now. Mario Williams, Joe Thomas, Adrian Peterson are the stars of tomorrow. Its nice seeing them dominate at such a young age.

Absolutely, seriously, how lucky are we for the next 8 or 9 years, not to mention some of the young stars that are in college. And your right, I think if Halotu Ngata was playing straight up in a 4-3 as a pure DT and not a 3-4 DE he would be considered a top tier DT. I absolutely love what we are seeing right now in the NFL. I think we are finally getting away from that sloppy football from 2000-2004. I'm seeing great young and talented QB's, talented defenders, offesive players and even young hungry coaches. I mean when you look at the top 5 or so players at each position your seeing the majority of them as 28 or younger and even a few that are 25 or younger. Thats great for us fellas.

Smokey Joe
10-05-2008, 11:12 PM
http://www.emqb.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/lance-briggs.jpg

Okay, not really, but he's been a beast this year.

MarioPalmer
10-05-2008, 11:17 PM
Either way he is throwing linemen around like they are little girls and just cause its a contract year doesn't mean he isn't the best defensive player in the league right now.

The MVP award has nothing to do with what he did earlier in his career (granted a great career before that certainly helps with the extra exposure..) and you are clearly saying Mario is the best now, not 3 years ago, or else your point is ********... Maybe he hasn't been the best over the past 3 years, but it sure as hell hasn't been Mario either.

The past vs. present crap has nothing to do with this thread...

I used it as Haynesworth hasn't been even close to a dominanting player until last year. That to me shows that a) he either is only playing for his big contract or b) finally relized that after 5 years of mediocrity he might want to step it up abit.

My point is that he hasn't been there for his team when they were terrible. He shows up during a contract year, and sorry, but players do this all the time in all sports. Look at Larry Johnson and Shaun Alexander. So, if Haynesworth gets a multi year deal and puts up the same type of production and leadership then I will be the first to say that he is the best defender in the game.

Being a productive player isn't everything. Being a leader, being a mentour, being a captain and face for your franchise is being the best player. Mario is established himself as that so far in his young carreer. Albert has yet to establish himself as a leader and a face of the Titan orginization. Bullock to me is the face of that team on defense. When you look at the top defenders in the league such as Urlacher, Willis, Merriman, Ware, Seymour, etc. they all play at a high level, are leaders and have made themselves the man to beat on their respective clubs. I put Mario in that catagory right now.

Mr. Stiller
10-06-2008, 12:11 AM
I'm sad no one mentioned James Harrison.

James is 6'0 242lbs. He literally threw all 6'9 370lbs of Jared Gaither aside As he Crushed Flacco.


Pound for Pound, James Harrison is one of if not the Best Defender in the league. The guy just is unstoppable.

Bruce Banner
10-06-2008, 12:17 AM
I'm sad no one mentioned James Harrison.

James is 6'0 242lbs. He literally threw all 6'9 370lbs of Jared Gaither aside As he Crushed Flacco.


Pound for Pound, James Harrison is one of if not the Best Defender in the league. The guy just is unstoppable.

Stiller, your homerism is annoying but admirable. I have to respect someone who never backs down.

Mr. Stiller
10-06-2008, 01:01 AM
Stiller, your homerism is annoying but admirable. I have to respect someone who never backs down.

My Homerism?

James Harrison had one of the greatest nights of all time last year in baltimore..

He's a more consistent dominant force than Mario Williams is.. Why shouldn't he be mentioned?

bearsfan_51
10-06-2008, 01:02 AM
Hahaha...the greatest nights of all time....that's rich.

Mr. Stiller
10-06-2008, 01:06 AM
Hahaha...the greatest nights of all time....that's rich.

?

Yeah a 10 tackle, 3.5 Sack, 1 INT, 1 PD, 3 FF, 1 FR night is a fairly common occurance. I apologize and will bow out of the thread.

joercky
10-06-2008, 01:19 AM
I would take Julius Peppers over Mario. Peppers when he has his head on right is the most dominant defensive end in the league.

bearsfan_51
10-06-2008, 01:23 AM
?

Yeah a 10 tackle, 3.5 Sack, 1 INT, 1 PD, 3 FF, 1 FR night is a fairly common occurance. I apologize and will bow out of the thread.
Do you realize that in the history of the NFL there have been about 30-40 thousand games? I bet you that most non-Steelers fans don't even remember that game and it happened very recently.

giantsfan
10-06-2008, 01:42 AM
I would take Julius Peppers over Mario. Peppers when he has his head on right is the most dominant defensive end in the league.

Julius doesn't have his head on right any more and at the moment Osi is still a better and more productive DE than Julius Peppers.

Mr. Stiller
10-06-2008, 01:43 AM
Do you realize that in the history of the NFL there have been about 30-40 thousand games? I bet you that most non-Steelers fans don't even remember that game and it happened very recently.

So the fact people are oblivious to it makes it irrelevant.

I guess it just means who's the "Brett Favre" of the DL and there's your most dominant defensive player.

Production really doesn't matter apparently.

Which... was my point. Harrison is more productive, and he doesn't get to rush the QB every down. Also more consistent. If Mario Williams is in the discussion then someone who's more dominant and flat out produces more should be a relevant topic no?

But hey, if we're going all hype, throw me on the Mario Williams-train.

I could make an Argument that Aaron Smith is perhaps the Best 3-4 DE in the league.


Watch out for Lawrence Timmons though...

Per Aaron Smith: "Look out!" defensive end Aaron Smith predicted. "He's so young, but he's so talented. He's a good player now and going to get better. In two or three years, he's going to be unbelievable. I think he might be the best player in the NFL in two years."

Gay Ork Wang
10-06-2008, 04:25 AM
great, ur saying the guy on YOUR team is great and back it up with a comment by one of HIS teammates.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 05:13 AM
I can't see a reason why Albert Haynesworth isn't the best player in the league currently. I might be a little biased because I remember how he singlehandedly wrecked the Saints, and he's been doing that to everyone.

He's easily my DPOY right now, and he has to be right up there in MVP, if the voting were legit.

abaddon41_80
10-06-2008, 08:00 AM
I can't see a reason why Albert Haynesworth isn't the best player in the league currently. I might be a little biased because I remember how he singlehandedly wrecked the Saints, and he's been doing that to everyone.

He's easily my DPOY right now, and he has to be right up there in MVP, if the voting were legit.

I agree completely. Haynesworth has been an absolute monster the past two seasons.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-06-2008, 11:44 AM
Do you realize that in the history of the NFL there have been about 30-40 thousand games? I bet you that most non-Steelers fans don't even remember that game and it happened very recently.

51, you should know. Only Steelers games really count. Everything else is just a leadup to the main event, Pittsburgh vs. whomever.

Gay Ork Wang
10-06-2008, 11:46 AM
51, you should know. Only Steelers games really count. Everything else is just a leadup to the main event, Pittsburgh vs. whomever.
imagine a Pittsburgh Giants game. OMG

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 12:00 PM
Mario Williams is the best DE in the league.

Dam8610
10-06-2008, 12:02 PM
The Colts had Charlie Johnson playing LT yesterday, that has a lot to do with what Mario Williams was able to do (Jared Allen only started making a noticeable impact against the Colts when Ugoh left), for example, somehow on one play the matchups ended up with Joseph Addai blocking Mario Williams one on one (needless to say, that ended in a sack), not only is that a horrible matchup, but it shows that Johnson does not belong at the LT spot.

That's not knocking Mario Williams, I think he's well on his way to becoming an elite NFL DE much to my dismay, all I'm saying is consider the opposition he faced to get those sacks. It's not quite Justice vs. Osi, but let's just say I'd MUCH rather have Tony Ugoh out there protecting Peyton's blindside.

illmatic74
10-06-2008, 01:08 PM
1. Haynesworth- Best player on the best defense for two years
2. Tuck- The new prototye
3. Mario- He was worth the pick
4. Any Steeler OLB- Im serious
5. Vikings starting DTS
17. Ray Lewis- Drug test was the worst LB on the Ravens last year now he is dominant again suspicious.
102. Osi got fat off sacks against Winston Justice and D'Brickshaw Ferguson last year.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 01:16 PM
1. Haynesworth- Best player on the best defense for two years
2. Tuck- The new prototye
3. Mario- He was worth the pick
4. Any Steeler OLB- Im serious
5. Vikings starting DTS
17. Ray Lewis- Drug test was the worst LB on the Ravens last year now he is dominant again suspicious.
102. Osi got fat off sacks against Winston Justice and D'Brickshaw Ferguson last year.

Osi was set to have a monster year this year. In PS, he looked significantly better than Tuck did. Osi is still our best defensive player.

I agree with Haynesworth being the best linemen in football though.

abaddon41_80
10-06-2008, 01:34 PM
1. Haynesworth- Best player on the best defense for two years
2. Tuck- The new prototye
3. Mario- He was worth the pick
4. Any Steeler OLB- Im serious
5. Vikings starting DTS
17. Ray Lewis- Drug test was the worst LB on the Ravens last year now he is dominant again suspicious.
102. Osi got fat off sacks against Winston Justice and D'Brickshaw Ferguson last year.

James Harrison and Lamar Woodley are seriously both in the running for DPOY

Burns336
10-06-2008, 01:35 PM
D-ware just wants everyone to know he has a sack in 8 straight games.

Consistency.

abaddon41_80
10-06-2008, 01:46 PM
D-ware just wants everyone to know he has a sack in 8 straight games.

Consistency.

Two of his 5 sacks have come with less than 2 minutes left when the Cowboys were up by more than 1 score (Green Bay, Cincinnati) and 1 came in the 4th quarter when the Cowboys were up 28-7 on the Browns. You could argue that only 2 of his sacks were meaningful and 1 of those, the one against the Eagles, was a complete coverage sack.

FlyingElvis
10-06-2008, 02:13 PM
Two of his 5 sacks have come with less than 2 minutes left when the Cowboys were up by more than 1 score (Green Bay, Cincinnati) and 1 came in the 4th quarter when the Cowboys were up 28-7 on the Browns. You could argue that only 2 of his sacks were meaningful and 1 of those, the one against the Eagles, was a complete coverage sack.

lmao. Tell that to the voters. :rolleyes:


Mario is a great DE. Haynesworth is, hands down, "the best defensive player in the league."

abaddon41_80
10-06-2008, 02:23 PM
Ware is a great player but I just thought I would point that out.

MetSox17
10-06-2008, 02:46 PM
D-ware just wants everyone to know he has a sack in 8 straight games.

Consistency.

Oh stop it Burns. People don't like Cowboys fans talking about Cowboys players. The stats lie. Demarcus Ware is a scrub. :rolleyes:

giantsfan
10-06-2008, 02:53 PM
Oh stop it Burns. People don't like Cowboys fans talking about Cowboys players. The stats lie. Demarcus Ware is a scrub. :rolleyes:

DeMarcus is the best three-four outside linebacker in the league, but he's not playing on Haynesworth's level, no one is.

bantx
10-06-2008, 02:57 PM
D-ware just wants everyone to know he has a sack in 8 straight games.

Consistency.

Tony Romo just wants everyone to know he has a pick in 8 straight games.

Consistency.

FlyingElvis
10-06-2008, 02:59 PM
Ware is a great player but I just thought I would point that out.

I hear you. I'm not knocking the argument. But the stats are the only #s that matter. Nobody is going to review tape and change their mind, otherwise Strahan wouldn't be the single season sack leader and Brady wouldn't be the single season record holder for TDs w/a few of his ugly jump balls to Randy. *cough* Dolphins DBs suck *cough*

abaddon41_80
10-06-2008, 03:16 PM
I hear you. I'm not knocking the argument. But the stats are the only #s that matter. Nobody is going to review tape and change their mind, otherwise Strahan wouldn't be the single season sack leader and Brady wouldn't be the single season record holder for TDs w/a few of his ugly jump balls to Randy. *cough* Dolphins DBs suck *cough*

True, true.

Geo
10-06-2008, 03:19 PM
Two of his 5 sacks have come with less than 2 minutes left when the Cowboys were up by more than 1 score (Green Bay, Cincinnati) and 1 came in the 4th quarter when the Cowboys were up 28-7 on the Browns. You could argue that only 2 of his sacks were meaningful and 1 of those, the one against the Eagles, was a complete coverage sack.
Hahaha, that's fantastic. Nice leg work.

abaddon41_80
10-06-2008, 03:24 PM
Hahaha, that's fantastic. Nice leg work.

Thanks. It actually wasn't that hard thanks to the play-by-play on nfl.com. The only reason I even bothered is because I have watched every Cowboy game this year and it seemed like he would always get a sack late in the game.

Geo
10-06-2008, 03:25 PM
Mario Williams is the most overrated player on NFLDC, posters love to slurp him up. Seeing him ranked as the best DE in the league in another thread was funny. Too bad his impact during the game isn't close to his season numbers.

Bruce Banner
10-06-2008, 03:29 PM
Mario Williams is the most overrated player on NFLDC, posters love to slurp him up. Seeing him ranked as the best DE in the league in another thread was funny. Too bad his impact during the game isn't close to his season numbers.

Stats.....lie. Especially when it comes to sacks and splash numbers like that.

Towards the end of the Bengals/'Boys game the 'Boys were getting coverage sacks like no other, those on paper can make some mediocre players look really good.

MetSox17
10-06-2008, 03:33 PM
Mario Williams is the most overrated player on NFLDC, posters love to slurp him up. Seeing him ranked as the best DE in the league in another thread was funny. Too bad his impact during the game isn't close to his season numbers.

This is a bit funny coming from someone that overrates his favorite players as well. Mario Williams might be overrated on these boards (as far as being the best player in the league or ever, as some might argue) but that means nothing. He's still a top three defensive end, and the way he disrupts timing and protections for the offense is second to none. Not to mention his stellar run defense.

Geo
10-06-2008, 03:39 PM
I'm not afraid to be effusive in praise of players, Colts players or otherwise, when I think it's deserved, ex. Adrian Peterson is the best runningback in the league.

Super Mario is probably Top 10, but best DE in the league? Not in my book, heck no.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 03:45 PM
Put Mario Williams on a better team and he'd get 17 sacks a season easy.


Who does he have on that line? Okeye is having a down year. Its all Mario Williams. Put Williams on the Vikings per say, instead of Allen and he'd get 20 sacks.

Bruce Banner
10-06-2008, 03:48 PM
Put Mario Williams on a better team and he'd get 17 sacks a season easy.


I want to agree but I can't. It just doesn't work that way. It's like saying that Dwayne Bowe would have 18 TDs if he played for the Colts.

bigbluedefense
10-06-2008, 03:53 PM
I want to agree but I can't. It just doesn't work that way. It's like saying that Dwayne Bowe would have 18 TDs if he played for the Colts.

true. i'll give you that.

619
10-06-2008, 03:58 PM
He's come a LONG way from his rookie year. Is he top 5 ? top 10 ? No reason not to think so, atleast statistically as of late.

Bruce Banner
10-06-2008, 04:00 PM
true. i'll give you that.

Don't get me wrong, his numbers would go up but the overall wealth would be spread. Everyone benefits a little bit, not one person getting all of it.

MetSox17
10-06-2008, 04:09 PM
Don't get me wrong, his numbers would go up but the overall wealth would be spread. Everyone benefits a little bit, not one person getting all of it.

But the fact that he can put up those numbers, while being on a crappy team has to mean something. He's double teamed constantly, and still is able to pressure the quarterback. There's not many players in the NFL like him.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
10-06-2008, 04:20 PM
just to go based off of the title of the thread, the person who started this is either out to lunch or homering, as Fat Albert has that title locked down IMO. IF you watch him play and can truely appreciate the DT position, it is pretty plain to see. He has been amazing since the start of last year. I quickly read the initial posters arguement against him, talking about how he was out of no where starting last year, and i simply laugh. Does anyone really care when he had his break-out year? He is straight up the best defensive player over that period. Or to put it in his terms, he has been a bigger monster for a full half season (start of last year) longer than Mario. If we want to compare like that.

No one i'm sure argues that Mario doens't have that kind of potential, and is an elite talent, but to claim it basically as a no arguement with not so persuading 'facts' doesn't really show this posters knowledge, instead showing love for his favorite players coming from a biased opinion. He talks about watching all the Texans games, but maybe he should start to TiVo the Titans also.

Sniper
10-06-2008, 04:23 PM
This is a bit funny coming from someone that overrates his favorite players as well. Mario Williams might be overrated on these boards (as far as being the best player in the league or ever, as some might argue) but that means nothing. He's still a top three defensive end, and the way he disrupts timing and protections for the offense is second to none. Not to mention his stellar run defense.

This is extremely funny because the guy who posted it thinks Eli Manning is the second best QB in the NFL.

Geo
10-06-2008, 04:28 PM
It's fair to add that Williams is only getting better as he gains more experience. And he has an incredible world of potential, no doubt.

MetSox17
10-06-2008, 04:30 PM
This is extremely funny because the guy who posted it thinks Eli Manning is the second best QB in the NFL.

Exactly my point.

Not only that, but Dwight Freeney is the best run-stuffing DE in the league as well!

The Great Jonathan Vilma
10-06-2008, 04:31 PM
It's fair to add that Williams is only getting better as he gains more experience. And he has an incredible world of potential, no doubt.

Ya, but i don't think anyone would doubt that. Everyone already thinks the world of Mario and that he has as much potential on defense as anyone in the league, and would be many people's first selection going forward if you were to start a defense. However, the initial posters claim appears to be, to put bluntly, wrong.

Geo
10-06-2008, 04:32 PM
Exactly my point.

Not only that, but Dwight Freeney is the best run-stuffing DE in the league as well!
If you want to rag me on stuff I say, knock your socks off.

But don't make up ****.

MetSox17
10-06-2008, 04:38 PM
If you want to rag me on stuff I say, knock your socks off.

But don't make up ****.

C'mon, don't get offended. I was being facetious. ;)

I just don't take your opinion on division rivals too seriously.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 05:37 PM
I have no problem with him being called the best DE in the league... he's as good a pass rusher as anyone, and he's extremely stout holding his ground against the run.

I really don't think he has a legit case as a better player than Albert Haynesworth currently.

ChezPower4
10-06-2008, 05:55 PM
willams IMO is one of the best defensive players in the league but not the best. As far a DE go i think that Vanden Bosch should be in the conversation for being the best this year. He's playing great agaist the run and he's is a relentless pass rusher and has been getting quite a few sacks last season and this year.

As far as Williams goes i think that he's coming along very well and is playing at very high level. What scares me is that he's still very young and has not played that long and he's only going to continue to improve. I think that last year he proved that he is an elite pass rusher in this league and he's carrying that over from last season to this season. I think he's a Top 5 but not the best reminds me a lot of Peppers.

giantsfan
10-06-2008, 10:38 PM
willams IMO is one of the best defensive players in the league but not the best. As far a DE go i think that Vanden Bosch should be in the conversation for being the best this year. He's playing great agaist the run and he's is a relentless pass rusher and has been getting quite a few sacks last season and this year.

As far as Williams goes i think that he's coming along very well and is playing at very high level. What scares me is that he's still very young and has not played that long and he's only going to continue to improve. I think that last year he proved that he is an elite pass rusher in this league and he's carrying that over from last season to this season. I think he's a Top 5 but not the best reminds me a lot of Peppers.

I was going to mention how he reminds me off a young Julius Peppers and it's important he keeps working on his game and not getting content being a freak with no help.

BlindSite
10-07-2008, 12:22 AM
Peppers is always working on his game. If you take out one year which is an aberration he's been brilliant and dominant for a while.

I like Williams a lot as a player and I agree he's great in all facets of the game, but he's not yet a game changer, nor is he yet the best defensive player in the NFL.

The best defensive lineman by far at the moment is Albert Haynesworth

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 12:28 AM
When was the last time Peppers was dominant? My memory is starting to go in my old age.

BlindSite
10-07-2008, 12:53 AM
04,05,06 he was brilliant, he had one bad year, last year. That's it.

TitanHope
10-07-2008, 01:18 AM
C'mon, don't get offended. I was being facetious.

I just don't take your opinion on division rivals too seriously.

If anything, our opinions of Williams should be taken more into consideration. Yeah, we may have a slight bias against him since he plays for a rival, but we do see him twice a year - Both Geo and I even have similar views on Super Mario. I'd say our correlating opinions are just as good as a lone San Fran 49er fan, or whoever else, coming in and stating that Mario Williams is a Top 3 DE and still hasn't reached his entire potential. Criticism isn't always a sign of bias.


The fact that Mario is the only one who can rush the passer makes it harder on him to do so. They can key in on him because no one else will make any noise. It isn't basketball where SOMEONE has to grab a rebound or get buckets, if no one puts pressure on the QB, he isn't getting sacked.

This argument is hypocritical, though I'd delve farther into it than you did making my response not entirely in context. Albert Haynesworth is game-planned for, and is double-teamed at every possible time. Yet, he still makes plays, and frees up others to make plays also.

If Mario Williams were the only player who can formulate a pass-rush, then he would undoubtedly be the focal point of the blocking scheme. Double team him by putting a TE on his side, or keep a RB in to block in the backfield. This would leave the other defenders in neutral or advantageous blocking matchups.

So either Mario Williams is making plays despite being double-teamed and the other Texans defenders are so inept at pass-rushing that they can only muster one sack in 4 games despite being blocked in desireable situations, or Mario Williams is making plays against normal blockers and the rest of the Texans defenders are struggling with the extra protection?

Anyone who has watched the Texans/Colts game highlights on ESPN can see Williams's two sacks: one of which came against normal blocking and the other when all that stood between him and Manning was the RB. The situations when he made plays were in advantageous or neutral conditions.

The guy is not being keyed in on like people think, and if he was, then his teammates would have more than one sack in four games - hell, Houston has a Top 10 pass defense! The other 6 NFL caliber players can't even get a freaking coverage sack when Mario Williams is being double and triple teamed?

The Titans are 5-0 and I can't think of one reason why, other than him.

Perhaps you don't really know as much as you think? :)

At the beginning of the season, The Colts were supposed to be dominant, the Broncos were supposed to suck, the Giants were supposed to be a fluke, and the Bengals were expected to at least have an offense. Get that "at the beginning of the season" **** out of here.

Are you just listing the other stuff you didn't know now, or what?...

Dam8610
10-07-2008, 01:34 AM
But the fact that he can put up those numbers, while being on a crappy team has to mean something. He's double teamed constantly, and still is able to pressure the quarterback. There's not many players in the NFL like him.

You mean like yesterday when he beat a TE and a RB to get sacks? You're right, it takes an elite player to do that. :rolleyes:

Mr. Stiller
10-07-2008, 01:47 AM
James Harrison and Lamar Woodley are seriously both in the running for DPOY

I have a feeling Both SHOULD go to the pro-bowl... I don't know if both WILL.


Interesting side fact.


John Abraham - 7 Sacks
James Harrison - 6.5 Sacks
LaMarr Woodley - 5.5 Sacks
Joey Porter - 5.5 Sacks

interesting that 3 of the top 4 Passrushers have ties to Pittsburgh :).

that Said, I'll be pissed to high hell if Porter goes to a pro-bowl over Woodley.

But we have a Bye and the Bengals twice yet. So.

TitanHope
10-07-2008, 02:00 AM
There's no denying that Super Mario is a very good player and is a phreak. The fact that he was chosen #1 before Bush and Young, has proven to be the best player of the three, and still hasn't reached his potential cannot be understated. I'm not looking forward to facing him in upcoming seasons when his experience catches up with his ability.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that he's a bad DE or even an average DE. Common thought is that he's among the best in the league - 4 sacks in four games no matter when they were tallied is great production and ties him for 5th in the league. But there is a difference between being elite and best of the best, and very good.

John Abraham is leading the league in sacks with 7, and the rest of the ATL defense combined has only 2. Would he break the sack record if he played on the Giants or Titans DL's? Perhaps, or maybe he'd have less than he does now by freeing up other DL's to get to the QB quicker?

Elite players make the other players around him better and still produce. The Titans' DEF is not the same without Haynesworth. The Colts' DEF is not the same without Bob Sanders. The Chargers' DEF is not the same without Merrimen. An elite players takes a mediocre DEF and makes them above average or better. So one could argue that because the other defensive lineman around Mario are playing poorly, Mario is not at that level...yet.

Burns336
10-07-2008, 03:46 AM
I dont get why it matters when Ware gets his sacks? He's applying pressure all game, he just works his ass off until the very end.

I mean, are we going to knock Merriman?

As a San Diego resident I can tell you a lot of his sacks come when he smells blood at the end of games too. Not too mention a good helping of Chiefs and Raiders.

Just sayin.

And yeah Bantx, Tony has a pick in 8 straight, but I wouldn't even consider trading him for Rivers. Not sure what you're trying to get at.

Bitter this season?

Burns336
10-07-2008, 03:48 AM
As of right now James Harrison would get my vote.

Total package.

Half sack out of the lead, good number of tackles for a 3-4 OLB, and i believe he's forced 3 fumbles already.

bantx
10-07-2008, 06:36 AM
I dont get why it matters when Ware gets his sacks? He's applying pressure all game, he just works his ass off until the very end.

I mean, are we going to knock Merriman?

As a San Diego resident I can tell you a lot of his sacks come when he smells blood at the end of games too. Not too mention a good helping of Chiefs and Raiders.

Just sayin.

And yeah Bantx, Tony has a pick in 8 straight, but I wouldn't even consider trading him for Rivers. Not sure what you're trying to get at.

Bitter this season?

Who said anything about trading players? Why would i be bitter, we're 2-3 not 0-5 the same way we started out last year. But I'd take Rivers over Romo anyways thats just me, not like rivers is horrible like you make it sound like he is.

BlindSite
10-07-2008, 06:41 AM
Sacks are easily the most overrated stat in the NFL. As John Fox said, the best pass defense is a good pass rush and imo even if they don't have a lot of sacks if the pass defense is good, so are the Defensive ends.

abaddon41_80
10-07-2008, 07:26 AM
I dont get why it matters when Ware gets his sacks? He's applying pressure all game, he just works his ass off until the very end.

I mean, are we going to knock Merriman?

As a San Diego resident I can tell you a lot of his sacks come when he smells blood at the end of games too. Not too mention a good helping of Chiefs and Raiders.

Just sayin.


I have watched every Cowboy game this year, as I already said, and he only seems to get pressure when teams are desperate, have to pass, and send out 5 receivers. He just doesn't seem as good this year as he did last year, imo

Mr. Stiller
10-07-2008, 07:30 AM
As of right now James Harrison would get my vote.

Total package.

Half sack out of the lead, good number of tackles for a 3-4 OLB, and i believe he's forced 3 fumbles already.

Homer.

31 Tackles (22 Solo, 9 Assist), 6.5 Sacks, 1 TFL, 3 FF's, 1 PD



Woodley is looking like a Future Star...

23 Tackles (19 Solo, 4 Assist), 5.5 Sacks, 3 TFL, 1 FF, 1 PD, 1 INT, 1 FR(TD)

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2008, 07:32 AM
Homer.

31 Tackles (22 Solo, 9 Assist), 6.5 Sacks, 1 TFL, 3 FF's, 1 PD



Woodley is looking like a Future Star...

23 Tackles (19 Solo, 4 Assist), 5.5 Sacks, 3 TFL, 1 FF, 1 PD, 1 INT, 1 FR(TD)
u dont need the Homer in the beginning, we all know all ur posts are full of total homerism

But i do like Woodley. What did ever happen to Timmons?

Mr. Stiller
10-07-2008, 07:41 AM
u dont need the Homer in the beginning, we all know all ur posts are full of total homerism

But i do like Woodley. What did ever happen to Timmons?

I was calling Burns a Homer for even bringing Harrison into the Convo.

Woodley I absolutely love. You double him? Harrison is going to make you pay.. Double Harrison? Woodley is coming in.

Timmons is doing Pretty good. 13 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 PD. He's in a rotation with Larry Foote.

Timmons has shown the explosiveness to be a seriously dangerous Blitzer(Not a passrusher), and is very good in coverage (I was at TC and they had him playing CB Covering Holmes/Ward/Willie Reid.. More impressive is Holmes on a 25 yard deep route only got about 1-2 steps on him). I think Timmons was a bit exhausted and out of Shape at his pro-day, he has to be running in the mid to high 4.3's..

His issue is, he's not very stout against the run game, though improving and though Foote isn't a world beater, he's much more solid in the run game than Timmons at this point. Once Timmons learns to shed blocks better and sift through traffic he should be starting at ILB. Though there's also rumors that Foote is going to stay RILB, and they're going to replace Farrior next year with Timmons.

A Perfect Score
10-07-2008, 08:29 AM
I was calling Burns a Homer for even bringing Harrison into the Convo.

Woodley I absolutely love. You double him? Harrison is going to make you pay.. Double Harrison? Woodley is coming in.

Timmons is doing Pretty good. 13 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 PD. He's in a rotation with Larry Foote.

Timmons has shown the explosiveness to be a seriously dangerous Blitzer(Not a passrusher), and is very good in coverage (I was at TC and they had him playing CB Covering Holmes/Ward/Willie Reid.. More impressive is Holmes on a 25 yard deep route only got about 1-2 steps on him). I think Timmons was a bit exhausted and out of Shape at his pro-day, he has to be running in the mid to high 4.3's..

His issue is, he's not very stout against the run game, though improving and though Foote isn't a world beater, he's much more solid in the run game than Timmons at this point. Once Timmons learns to shed blocks better and sift through traffic he should be starting at ILB. Though there's also rumors that Foote is going to stay RILB, and they're going to replace Farrior next year with Timmons.

I would really love to see Lawrence Timmons run a mid 4.3

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 08:54 AM
i think harrison, woodley and timmons make a very very good LB core for years to come.


here's my issue with them though: Dick LeBeau.

We've seen time and time again, that LeBeau's firezone is the real reason why Pittsburgh generates so much pressure. While those guys are great OLBs, i doubt they generate similar numbers with other teams.

Take a look at the track record. Every time one of these backers leave Pittsburgh and go to another team, we see a significant dropoff in production. While these players are good, I don't see them having universal success.

I think Harrison and Woodley both greatly benefit from a scheme that puts them in favorable matchups quite a bit.

The real underrated player on that defense is Aaron Smith.

And I think Timmons is a monster. But Harrison and Woodley, while both very very good, neither should be considered in the "best" conversation.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 08:58 AM
Don't doubt Woodley, BBD. There's a strong chance he will eat you.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:02 AM
Don't doubt Woodley, BBD. There's a strong chance he will eat you.

i think he's a beast. just not in the conversation of best in the league.

Timmons is my favorite of the bunch. Id love to see him in a 4-3 defense. He'd be an absolute monster in a 4-3 front.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 09:03 AM
i think he's a beast. just not in the conversation of best in the league.



Not yet. He will be soon enough though.

Mr. Stiller
10-07-2008, 09:40 AM
I would really love to see Lawrence Timmons run a mid 4.3

I'm not saying he definitely does, but running nearly step for Step with Santonio Holmes and Willie Reid shows some definite speed.

It's not out of the realm either, Patrick Willis did it and he's not nearly as smooth in coverage as Timmons is, though he's insanely better against the run, now.

i think harrison, woodley and timmons make a very very good LB core for years to come.


here's my issue with them though: Dick LeBeau.

We've seen time and time again, that LeBeau's firezone is the real reason why Pittsburgh generates so much pressure. While those guys are great OLBs, i doubt they generate similar numbers with other teams.

Yeah, but isn't it the D-Coordinators job to scheme up the best way possible to have his team come out ahead. It's not like Harrison only beats RB's/TE's, did you not see him Punk Barnes/Gaither? 6'0 242lbs and He threw Gaither to the ground all 6'9 350+Lbs of him. I'm not here saying he would be amazing in any scheme, but you make it sound like he gets all his sacks with free lanes to the QB which... I've never seen Harrison come cleanly to the QB.

Take a look at the track record. Every time one of these backers leave Pittsburgh and go to another team, we see a significant dropoff in production. While these players are good, I don't see them having universal success.

BBD I know you know your stuff and I don't like to argue with you but in all reality the only LB to leave from Dick LeBeau and not have a decent effect was really Greg Lloyd. He was just falling apart from Injuries. Levon Kirkland only played 2 years elsewhere but was still decently effective. If we get a good linebacker we rarely let them go until they're over the hill.. but..

Kirkland, Lloyd, Greene, Brown, Haggans, Porter

Lloyd played 1 season and ultimately injuries were the end of him.

Greene Left the Steelers after 95. He went on to have double digit sack totals every season until his retirement in 1999. Totaling 52 sacks in 4 years AFTER leaving Pittsburgh.

Kirkland.. by the time he left he had to be about the size of Casey Hampton. He was pushing 275 coming out and had to be nearly 300-310 when he left for Seattle. Even in Seattle he still managed 100 tackle season.

Chad Brown left after 4 seasons in Pittsburgh and went on to I believe several probowls as well as putthing up 5.0+ Sacks yearly from the SLB position in Seattles 4-3.

Porter had an off year for Miami last year but this year he's tied with LaMarr Woodley in sacks at #3 with 5.5.

Clark Haggans was never a great linebacker even in Steelers Scheme. He had 1 season with 9.0 sacks but even then no other season did he get over 7 sacks. This year he is in Arizona but isn't even starting. He shouldn't have started over Woodley Last year either.

I think Harrison and Woodley both greatly benefit from a scheme that puts them in favorable matchups quite a bit.

So does every other OLB in a 3-4. If you're not benefitting from scheme then your DC should be fired. Not only that, but the players Still have to execute, again you make it sound like they're average players and just getting great opportunities because the offense doesn't know where they're coming. Well thats a part of it. I mean, if you truly believe that then there's really not a "Great" Player there is only "Great Schemes"... Woodley and Harrison have beaten tackles for all but .5 of their sacks, when Woodley beat a TE, and Harrison beat the RB and they collided. Every other sack was against the OT and possibly a TE or RB. If you really believe that I implore you to download the games and Rewatch them, Because Harrison and Woodley are the real deal, they're beating Tackles. I think Porter/Haggans excelled because of Scheme, but I think Harrison/Woodley are actually winning 1on1 matchups, which isn't making it easier because of "Scheme".

The real underrated player on that defense is Aaron Smith.

Very much Agreed. I'd call him the best 3-4 DE in the league but then people would be complaining that It's Not Richard Seymour who, frankly, hasn't been the best 3-4 DE in a while. But again, call me a homer, but Aaron Smith is amazing.

And I think Timmons is a monster. But Harrison and Woodley, while both very very good, neither should be considered in the "best" conversation.

I was merely pointing out that if Mario Williams can be considered the best considering his sporadic production, then why shouldn't Harrison. He's not nearly as Sporadic and very productive. You say scheme is why, but Scheme doesn't help Harrison beat the OT on a 1v1 Matchup. He still has to do it and he does, more often than not.


10 char....

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:48 AM
I'm not saying he definitely does, but running nearly step for Step with Santonio Holmes and Willie Reid shows some definite speed.

It's not out of the realm either, Patrick Willis did it and he's not nearly as smooth in coverage as Timmons is, though he's insanely better against the run, now.



10 char....

i can live with that. you make great points.

i still love Timmons the most though lol. he's a monster. imagine if the guy gained 13 pounds and became a rushbacker? zomg.

i think he'd be an absolute monster in a 4-3 front. Put him on a Tampa 2 team like the Bears who like playing a lot of man and blitzing their WILL, and Timmons would be a DPOY candidate.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-07-2008, 10:32 AM
This argument is hypocritical, though I'd delve farther into it than you did making my response not entirely in context. Albert Haynesworth is game-planned for, and is double-teamed at every possible time. Yet, he still makes plays, and frees up others to make plays also.

If Mario Williams were the only player who can formulate a pass-rush, then he would undoubtedly be the focal point of the blocking scheme. Double team him by putting a TE on his side, or keep a RB in to block in the backfield. This would leave the other defenders in neutral or advantageous blocking matchups.


What I said was that there's no requirement in football that SOMEONE gets the sacks. It isn't like basketball where a team will not get zero points and rebounds. If nobody can rush the passer, nobody will get a sack. Yes, Albert Haynesworth frees up players on his team to make plays, because they are also solid players, including arguably another top-5 DE(although it could be argued right now that it's Haynesworth making him look this good, but he's obviously competent). And I'll admit that it's much easier to do that from a DT position where the blockers are right there to double team him.

The guy is not being keyed in on like people think, and if he was, then his teammates would have more than one sack in four games - hell, Houston has a Top 10 pass defense! The other 6 NFL caliber players can't even get a freaking coverage sack when Mario Williams is being double and triple teamed?

Well he has 18 sacks in the past 20 games so either he's the one beying keyed in on or the best kept secret in the NFL is on the Houston D-Line.



Perhaps you don't really know as much as you think? :)


My bad, I forgot about that world-beating Kerry Collins led offense. And we all saw how your defense held up last year without Big Al.


Are you just listing the other stuff you didn't know now, or what?...

All of those things I listed were believed to be true at the beginning of the season. The point of that was to say that just because something was supposed to happen at the beginning of the season, sure as **** doesn't make it true or you guys would not be 5-0, and my boys would not be 4-1.

Mr. Stiller
10-07-2008, 01:14 PM
i can live with that. you make great points.

i still love Timmons the most though lol. he's a monster. imagine if the guy gained 13 pounds and became a rushbacker? zomg.

i think he'd be an absolute monster in a 4-3 front. Put him on a Tampa 2 team like the Bears who like playing a lot of man and blitzing their WILL, and Timmons would be a DPOY candidate.

I think Timmons will be a Second Troy Polamalu for this team. Like you were talking about the Safeties for Washington... I've seen LeBeau Blitzing Ryan Clark with Polamalu/Timmons at the line (Showing no deep safety, Timmons, Farrior, Polamalu, Clark showing blitz)..

On Snap: Woodley Rushes, Harrison covers the flat, Timmons and Polamalu sprint deep, getting their nearly simultaneously, Clark Blitzes Farrior covers a zone about 7 yards off the LOS, and Clark Nails the QB as he throws the ball away.

I don't know when but I know LeBeau will some day retire.. thats where it gets fuzzy.

Odds on favorite for the Next DC is Keith Butler the LB Coach. I've actually got to talk to him, very bright and impressive coach.

However, Tomlin being trained in the Tampa2 for about 6-7 years now, my only question is, would he want to scrap the 3-4 and bring in a T2 DC? I mean there's plenty of good Tampa2 Candidates out there. And there is a small amount of players on the team that could transition...

I would figure...

Aaron Smith - Casey Hampton - Chris Hoke - LaMarr Woodley
Brett Keisel - ? - ? - Bruce Davis?

James Harrison - James Farrior - Lawrence Timmons
Larry Foote - Keyaron Fox - ?

so.. thats where I don't know if Timmons/Woodley were brought in for their skillset for an eventual switch to a 4-3 as Woodley, while not the athletic Freak that Dwight Freeney, he can play with his hand down, and he's very dominant against the run.

I think Chris Hoke is another underrated guy. We held Jax to 38 yards rushing and we haven't had Hampton for 2 weeks. Hokie was also our NT for our 15-1 Season.

But I agree. I think they find Timmons too "Polamalu-esque" to ask him to add weight and play 3-4 OLB. Especially now with Bruce Davis. I'm still hoping to add Jamaal Westerman for SOLB Backup. he and Woodley would make it a pain in the ass to play RT against us.

Timmons looks very physical though.. I'd say he's about 60% of the way to his full potential. and he's something like barely 21? Almost 22? 2 years in the league and he's only 22.. so. Yeah he's got longevity on his side.

EDIT:

I don't think Timmons need's extra weight.. he's 240lbs +/- 2. Harrison is 242, Foote 239, Farrior 242.

And I don't think he needs weight... first one, watch the guard (#75) Try to even get a hold of him.

then the second play. you see him run at the pile and instantly run through the QB. The kid is FAST.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVXrStylIQ

Sniper
10-07-2008, 01:17 PM
On Snap: Woodley Rushes


End of play. The QB is now sacked

Mr. Stiller
10-07-2008, 01:22 PM
End of play. The QB is now sacked

yeah. I was concerned when he played Jacksonville. Pashos threw him down by the facemask once and he was slow to get up. Wasn't flagged.

Then the RB Legwhipped him. I really thought he was going to get hurt because he wasn't running as solid after those 2 plays.

Dam8610
10-07-2008, 02:08 PM
When did a Mario Williams thread turn into a Steelers LB thread?

terribletowel39
10-07-2008, 02:19 PM
When did a Mario Williams thread turn into a Steelers LB thread?

Top of this page.

Burns336
10-07-2008, 02:27 PM
I was calling Burns a Homer for even bringing Harrison into the Convo.

Woodley I absolutely love. You double him? Harrison is going to make you pay.. Double Harrison? Woodley is coming in.

Timmons is doing Pretty good. 13 Tackles, 1 Sack, 1 PD. He's in a rotation with Larry Foote.

Timmons has shown the explosiveness to be a seriously dangerous Blitzer(Not a passrusher), and is very good in coverage (I was at TC and they had him playing CB Covering Holmes/Ward/Willie Reid.. More impressive is Holmes on a 25 yard deep route only got about 1-2 steps on him). I think Timmons was a bit exhausted and out of Shape at his pro-day, he has to be running in the mid to high 4.3's..

His issue is, he's not very stout against the run game, though improving and though Foote isn't a world beater, he's much more solid in the run game than Timmons at this point. Once Timmons learns to shed blocks better and sift through traffic he should be starting at ILB. Though there's also rumors that Foote is going to stay RILB, and they're going to replace Farrior next year with Timmons.

I don't get it?

I'm a cowboy fan, not steelers. How would the Harrison pick be a homer pick.

Did I miss the joke or something?

Mr. Stiller
10-07-2008, 03:32 PM
I don't get it?

I'm a cowboy fan, not steelers. How would the Harrison pick be a homer pick.

Did I miss the joke or something?

Yeah, you missed the joke.

21ST
10-07-2008, 04:04 PM
I was gonna come in here and talk about mario williams but now after reading this page i feel like i would be going off topic

BlindSite
10-07-2008, 05:08 PM
i think harrison, woodley and timmons make a very very good LB core for years to come.


here's my issue with them though: Dick LeBeau.

We've seen time and time again, that LeBeau's firezone is the real reason why Pittsburgh generates so much pressure. While those guys are great OLBs, i doubt they generate similar numbers with other teams.

Take a look at the track record. Every time one of these backers leave Pittsburgh and go to another team, we see a significant dropoff in production. While these players are good, I don't see them having universal success.

I think Harrison and Woodley both greatly benefit from a scheme that puts them in favorable matchups quite a bit.

The real underrated player on that defense is Aaron Smith.

And I think Timmons is a monster. But Harrison and Woodley, while both very very good, neither should be considered in the "best" conversation.

If we go back in history Vrabel would be the notable exception.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 05:22 PM
This has turned into a Michigan/Pittsburgh homer thread.

BlindSite
10-07-2008, 05:59 PM
I don't know how sacks from linebackers blitzing suddenly makes them best in the league.

steelersfan43
10-07-2008, 06:28 PM
I think Timmons will be a Second Troy Polamalu for this team. Like you were talking about the Safeties for Washington... I've seen LeBeau Blitzing Ryan Clark with Polamalu/Timmons at the line (Showing no deep safety, Timmons, Farrior, Polamalu, Clark showing blitz)..

On Snap: Woodley Rushes, Harrison covers the flat, Timmons and Polamalu sprint deep, getting their nearly simultaneously, Clark Blitzes Farrior covers a zone about 7 yards off the LOS, and Clark Nails the QB as he throws the ball away.

I don't know when but I know LeBeau will some day retire.. thats where it gets fuzzy.

Odds on favorite for the Next DC is Keith Butler the LB Coach. I've actually got to talk to him, very bright and impressive coach.

However, Tomlin being trained in the Tampa2 for about 6-7 years now, my only question is, would he want to scrap the 3-4 and bring in a T2 DC? I mean there's plenty of good Tampa2 Candidates out there. And there is a small amount of players on the team that could transition...

I would figure...

Aaron Smith - Casey Hampton - Chris Hoke - LaMarr Woodley
Brett Keisel - ? - ? - Bruce Davis?

James Harrison - James Farrior - Lawrence Timmons
Larry Foote - Keyaron Fox - ?

so.. thats where I don't know if Timmons/Woodley were brought in for their skillset for an eventual switch to a 4-3 as Woodley, while not the athletic Freak that Dwight Freeney, he can play with his hand down, and he's very dominant against the run.

I think Chris Hoke is another underrated guy. We held Jax to 38 yards rushing and we haven't had Hampton for 2 weeks. Hokie was also our NT for our 15-1 Season.

But I agree. I think they find Timmons too "Polamalu-esque" to ask him to add weight and play 3-4 OLB. Especially now with Bruce Davis. I'm still hoping to add Jamaal Westerman for SOLB Backup. he and Woodley would make it a pain in the ass to play RT against us.

Timmons looks very physical though.. I'd say he's about 60% of the way to his full potential. and he's something like barely 21? Almost 22? 2 years in the league and he's only 22.. so. Yeah he's got longevity on his side.

EDIT:

I don't think Timmons need's extra weight.. he's 240lbs +/- 2. Harrison is 242, Foote 239, Farrior 242.

And I don't think he needs weight... first one, watch the guard (#75) Try to even get a hold of him.

then the second play. you see him run at the pile and instantly run through the QB. The kid is FAST.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgVXrStylIQ

I hope we dont switch to a 4-3. LeBeau needs to stay forever.

Shane P. Hallam
10-07-2008, 06:29 PM
I hope we dont switch to a 4-3. LeBeau needs to stay forever.

Don't worry Eggs, it's going nowhere.

Mr. Stiller
10-08-2008, 04:15 AM
I don't know how sacks from linebackers blitzing suddenly makes them best in the league.

If thats how you feel you obviously haven't watched. Kudos.

marks01234
10-08-2008, 06:53 AM
Back to the thread.

Mario is the best defensive player in the league right now. I'm convinced after watching most of the Colts game last week. Teams just always run around him - he completely dictates the opposing teams gameplan. He's one the leagues best pass rusher, in a scheme that is poorly suited for him (and any other pass rusher) and with an collection of below average defensive lineman that take no attention off him.

BlindSite
10-08-2008, 04:15 PM
If thats how you feel you obviously haven't watched. Kudos.

I've seen a couple of games and I wouldn't trade anyone you've got for the likes of Beason or Davis.

Mr. Stiller
10-08-2008, 11:53 PM
I've seen a couple of games and I wouldn't trade anyone you've got for the likes of Beason or Davis.

Not quite sure what you mean.

BlindSite
10-09-2008, 03:27 AM
I've seen the Steelers linebackers play a few times this year already and not one player on your team is a better linebacker than players on rosters like Baltimore, Carolina, Tennessee, for example. They're good at their job, but rushing the passer in big blitz schemes isn't a reason to consider a linebacker as one of the best in the league, you're better off looking at their work in the run game and coverage than how they rush the passer.

Just IMO.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:53 AM
I've seen the Steelers linebackers play a few times this year already and not one player on your team is a better linebacker than players on rosters like Baltimore, Carolina, Tennessee, for example. They're good at their job, but rushing the passer in big blitz schemes isn't a reason to consider a linebacker as one of the best in the league, you're better off looking at their work in the run game and coverage than how they rush the passer.

Just IMO.

Don't be silly. LaMarr Woodley owns everyone.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 11:06 AM
I've seen the Steelers linebackers play a few times this year already and not one player on your team is a better linebacker than players on rosters like Baltimore, Carolina, Tennessee, for example. They're good at their job, but rushing the passer in big blitz schemes isn't a reason to consider a linebacker as one of the best in the league, you're better off looking at their work in the run game and coverage than how they rush the passer.

Just IMO.

Are you serious?

You'd take every Baltimore/Carolina/Tennessee LB over Pittsburghs?

There was a stat on the Monday night game at the end.

Pittsburgh has "Blitzed" 10 times. 10 times in 5 games, thats merely 2 per game. and I know 6 of those were either Troy Polamalu or Ryan Clark.

We've only Blitzed ILB's/S's... LaMarr Woodley and James Harrison are rushing the passer, not blitzing.

If they're "Blitzing" Then Shawne Merriman, DeMarcus Ware, and every 4-3 DE that rushes the passer "Is a blitzer" and should be negatively impacted for it.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:12 PM
I'm sad no one mentioned James Harrison.

James is 6'0 242lbs. He literally threw all 6'9 370lbs of Jared Gaither aside As he Crushed Flacco.


Pound for Pound, James Harrison is one of if not the Best Defender in the league. The guy just is unstoppable.

There is a reason no one mentioned it. Because he doesnt belong here

Malaka
10-09-2008, 03:14 PM
There is a reason no one mentioned it. Because he doesnt belong here

Yeah, Harrison is very good but in my opinion nowhere near best defensive player in the league.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 03:17 PM
There is a reason no one mentioned it. Because he doesnt belong here

But Mario Williams, who is more inconsistent, less productive, but had a lofty draft status and ridiculous following on this site does.

Got it. Only Big names can be popular here. Understood Sir.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:18 PM
But Mario Williams, who is more inconsistent, less productive, but had a lofty draft status and ridiculous following on this site does.

Got it. Only Big names can be popular here. Understood Sir.
Marion Williams plays in a much much much much muuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccch worse defense with a much much much worse DC. But go on blow ur homer horn. seriously, show me someone else not a steeler fan thinking he is the best defensive player...

Sniper
10-09-2008, 03:24 PM
Marion Williams plays in a much much much much muuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccch worse defense with a much much much worse DC. But go on blow ur homer horn. seriously, show me someone else not a steeler fan thinking he is the best defensive player...

Who is Marion Williams?

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:25 PM
Mario Williams' twin brother. Jeez dont u know anything. He secretly plays for the texans too

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 03:27 PM
Marion Williams plays in a much much much much muuuuuuuuuuuucccccccccch worse defense with a much much much worse DC. But go on blow ur homer horn. seriously, show me someone else not a steeler fan thinking he is the best defensive player...

Again your sputtering anything you can to "Prove me wrong". Lovely. How would you like Me to break this down?

Mario Williams plays in a much worse defense with a worse DC.

Fine, but if he's the best defensive player in the league he should overcome that shouldn't he?

On second thought, no... I believe Ernie Sims is the best defensive player in the league. It's not his fault the Lions are terrible and have a terrible coordinator. Correct?

And Secondly as for blowing on my "Homer horn" I don't know or care what team you support. You follow me around trying to be a thorn in my side. Try, not succeed because you make terribly thought out arguments.

My point was merely, if Mario Williams is a contender for "Best defensive Player in the league" then a myriad of other players should be as well.

Because.. Point Blank.. He's not. I believe it's between Albert Haynesworth and Ray Lewis. Call me a Homer for that.. What a Steelers fan giving homage to a Raven? I think he's been overrated in his career yes. But he's also playing lights out.

And Lastly, learn a point before you argue, you can't argue if you don't read and understand the context of said argument.

If Williams is in contention for Best Defensive Player in the league, then Haynesworth, Lewis, Harrison and quite a few other players deserve Mentioning.


Why Does Harrison deserve Mentioning? How about He's a machine as a passrusher (not blitzer) and he Causes a ton of Turnovers.

But yes, a guy who's consistently getting to the quarterback, is nearly impossible to block, forces turnovers on a fairly regular basis is not nearly as good as a guy who plays great in sporadic bursts.

Thanks for pointing that out. For a second there I thought I was crazy.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 03:28 PM
The DPOY race should be between LaMarr Woodley, Charles Woodson, Leon Hall and David Harris. No one else need apply.

bored of education
10-09-2008, 03:28 PM
Well, I can say that Mr. Stiller loves James Harrison.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:29 PM
Well Mario Williams does overcome it, thats why we are having this discussion...

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 03:30 PM
Well Mario Williams does overcome it, thats why we are having this discussion...

in inconsistent spurts, which is why more consistent, impact players deserve mentioning.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:33 PM
besides im not saying Mario Williams is the best, im saying James Harrison deserves no mentioning because he is not even the best player on his defense

Sniper
10-09-2008, 03:34 PM
besides im not saying Mario Williams is the best, im saying James Harrison deserves no mentioning because he is not even the best player on his defense

This is indeed correct.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:35 PM
This is indeed correct.
He is not even the best non-wolverine on his team

BlindSite
10-09-2008, 03:43 PM
in inconsistent spurts, which is why more consistent, impact players deserve mentioning.

Dude this might sound harsh, but your love for your linebackers is BlindSite-esque

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 03:51 PM
Dude this might sound harsh, but your love for your linebackers is BlindSite-esque

Linebacker?

Harrison has played at an all-pro level.

it's not homerish to claim Mario Williams who hasn't played at a consistent elite level as the best defender in the league.

But Statistically speaking James Harrison is Superior to Mario Williams.. Right now.

If Williams was superior I wouldn't be making this argument.

I'm not even arguing to be a homer for Chrissakes. I just can't understand how someone who's had almost 0 impact for the most part is getting called best defensive player in the league vs. someone who makes a constant impact.


besides im not saying Mario Williams is the best, im saying James Harrison deserves no mentioning because he is not even the best player on his defense

THIS HAS BEEN MY POINT... almost.

1) James Harrison is indeed the best player on the defense. Troy is a good player but even he isn't making the game changes that Harrison is.

2) Woodley is getting there and I think will be a superior player to Harrison, he's just not there yet.

3) I've been only arguing under the Idea that if Mario Williams is in conversation, then so should Harrison because thus far Harrison has outplayed Williams. That has been my only and entire argument and you can only argue this for 3 reasons.

A) You just want me to be wrong
B) You hate Steelers/James Harrison
C) Because you want to ignore details for Mario to be the best.


I'm not saying Mario is the best. I'm just saying if he IS in consideration, then Harrison who has better Stats, made more impactful plays should be atleast worth mentioning.

Again, I'm not saying Harrison is the best, just that if Mario Williams IS (Supposedly) Harrison is at Worst in contention.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:52 PM
Id still take Aaron smith and even Woodley over Harrison.

besides, why would anyone argue to be a homer?

and im countering your point because its not true. I could care less if u are wrong

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 04:01 PM
Id still take Aaron smith and even Woodley over Harrison.

besides, why would anyone argue to be a homer?

and im countering your point because its not true. I could care less if u are wrong

I might agree with you on Aaron Smith, as he seems to be the biggest difference maker on our defense.

But if I give anyone on the Steelers credit.. I'm being a homer.

Woodley isn't developed enough to be better than Harrison at this point. Longevity wise, Yes I'd take Woodley as well.

I don't get your second paragraph. Reword.

You don't think that James Harrison has been a superior Player to Mario Williams?

James Harrison: 31 Tackles(21 solo, 9 Ast), 6.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 3 FF (1 resulting in a TD)
Mario Williams: 16 Tackles (12 Solo, 4 Ast), 4.0 Sacks, 1 FF

Harrison is +15 Tackles (9 Solo, 5 Ast) 2.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF's

Again, I see how Williams is Superior.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:03 PM
2) Woodley is getting there and I think will be a superior player to Harrison, he's just not there yet.


LIES! THEY'RE ALL LIES! No need to lie!

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:05 PM
I might agree with you on Aaron Smith, as he seems to be the biggest difference maker on our defense.

But if I give anyone on the Steelers credit.. I'm being a homer.

Woodley isn't developed enough to be better than Harrison at this point. Longevity wise, Yes I'd take Woodley as well.

I don't get your second paragraph. Reword.

You don't think that James Harrison has been a superior Player to Mario Williams?

James Harrison: 31 Tackles(21 solo, 9 Ast), 6.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 3 FF (1 resulting in a TD)
Mario Williams: 16 Tackles (12 Solo, 4 Ast), 4.0 Sacks, 1 FF

Harrison is +15 Tackles (9 Solo, 5 Ast) 2.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF's

Again, I see how Williams is Superior.
u gave me 3 options why i would argue and i told why i would argue with you. cause i think ur wrong. Not to make u look foolish nor do i hate the steelers.
im argueing cause u were wrong

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 04:07 PM
u gave me 3 options why i would argue and i told why i would argue with you. cause i think ur wrong. Not to make u look foolish nor do i hate the steelers.
im argueing cause u were wrong

You haven't "Proven" me wrong other than saying..

James Harrison isnt' the best player in the league.

If Mario Williams is and Harrison isn't.. it should be easy to PROVE not just because you say it's true.

I've been the only one to bring facts to this debate between you and I.

A Perfect Score
10-09-2008, 04:08 PM
I might agree with you on Aaron Smith, as he seems to be the biggest difference maker on our defense.

But if I give anyone on the Steelers credit.. I'm being a homer.

Woodley isn't developed enough to be better than Harrison at this point. Longevity wise, Yes I'd take Woodley as well.

I don't get your second paragraph. Reword.

You don't think that James Harrison has been a superior Player to Mario Williams?

James Harrison: 31 Tackles(21 solo, 9 Ast), 6.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 3 FF (1 resulting in a TD)
Mario Williams: 16 Tackles (12 Solo, 4 Ast), 4.0 Sacks, 1 FF

Harrison is +15 Tackles (9 Solo, 5 Ast) 2.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF's

Again, I see how Williams is Superior.

No offense dude, but your a gigantic homer. In fact, if Blindsite didnt find a way to work the panthers into every single situation, i would call you the biggest homer on the board. Its borderline annoying. And you can throw all the stats and stuff out there that you want, but I think everyone on this board knows that A) the steelers system GREATLY inflates their LB's numbers and B) Mario Williams has more potential in his pink yfinger then James Harrison does in his whole body.

Is Mario Williams the best player in the NFL now? Probably not. WIll he be in 2 years? Probably. Sorry man, but James Harrison is FAR from being the best defensive player in the league...there is just no way that you will win this argument

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:10 PM
You haven't "Proven" me wrong other than saying..

James Harrison isnt' the best player in the league.

If Mario Williams is and Harrison isn't.. it should be easy to PROVE not just because you say it's true.

I've been the only one to bring facts to this debate between you and I.
dude, there is no need to prove you wrong cause its not gonna happen cause ur obviously not trying to get a wider view and 99% of all the people, no **** it 99.9999% of the people here agree with me. I just kinda tried to argue with you but idk its kinda useless

AND WHEN THE **** DID I SAY MARIO IS? all im saying is harrison isnt.

BlindSite
10-09-2008, 04:11 PM
No offense dude, but your a gigantic homer. In fact, if Blindsite didnt find a way to work the panthers into every single situation, i would call you the biggest homer on the board. Its borderline annoying. And you can throw all the stats and stuff out there that you want, but I think everyone on this board knows that A) the steelers system GREATLY inflates their LB's numbers and B) Mario Williams has more potential in his pink yfinger then James Harrison does in his whole body.

Is Mario Williams the best player in the NFL now? Probably not. WIll he be in 2 years? Probably. Sorry man, but James Harrison is FAR from being the best defensive player in the league...there is just no way that you will win this argument

I think John Fox would agree with this

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 04:13 PM
dude, there is no need to prove you wrong cause its not gonna happen cause ur obviously not trying to get a wider view and 99% of all the people, no **** it 99.9999% of the people here agree with me. I just kinda tried to argue with you but idk its kinda useless

AND WHEN THE **** DID I SAY MARIO IS? all im saying is harrison isnt.

To which I never argued. You struck to me to argue Harrison isn't.

My only point is, if Mario Williams is considered Harrison should be. Never said he should or is the best player.

I'm trying to be as fair and open as possible. Having 4 people say "He's not" doesn't prove much other than their opinion on the matter.

As it pertains. I don't believe Harrison is either. I've already stated that for me it's between Lewis and Haynesworth.

My ONLY point was to Argue that Williams wasn't.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 04:17 PM
No offense dude, but your a gigantic homer. In fact, if Blindsite didnt find a way to work the panthers into every single situation, i would call you the biggest homer on the board. Its borderline annoying. And you can throw all the stats and stuff out there that you want, but I think everyone on this board knows that A) the steelers system GREATLY inflates their LB's numbers and B) Mario Williams has more potential in his pink yfinger then James Harrison does in his whole body.

Is Mario Williams the best player in the NFL now? Probably not. WIll he be in 2 years? Probably. Sorry man, but James Harrison is FAR from being the best defensive player in the league...there is just no way that you will win this argument

My argument has again, ONLY BEEN If Williams is in Contention for Best Defensive player, then so is Harrison.

and No, the Steelers System doesn't Inflate LB Numbers. Joey Porter had what.. 6 sacks in 2007?, Haggans had 4 last year?

If we were blitzing a lot, I'd agree. We've blitzed 10 times this season, and only the ILB's/S's. So. I think your use of "The Steelers System" as a knock against Harrison is obtuse.

I agree that Williams has more potential than Harrison. Never argued it. Fact is, if he's not using the potential to the most, then what does it matter?

Lawrence Phillips had a TON of potential as well. That didn't make him a great NFL RB.

Williams has not reached his potential, and he's seemingly stymied.

I will never argue that Williams has superior potential. My argument is that Williams is a superior player now. Which is hasn't been thus far.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:18 PM
To which I never argued. You struck to me to argue Harrison isn't.

My only point is, if Mario Williams is considered Harrison should be. Never said he should or is the best player.

I'm trying to be as fair and open as possible. Having 4 people say "He's not" doesn't prove much other than their opinion on the matter.

As it pertains. I don't believe Harrison is either. I've already stated that for me it's between Lewis and Haynesworth.

My ONLY point was to Argue that Williams wasn't.
ur original post doesnt say so though. it says why did no one mention him.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 04:19 PM
ur original post doesnt say so though. it says why did no one mention him.

Well, if you mentioned Williams why did No one mention Harrison?

Harrison's play is superior to Williams.

I'm sorry I didn't make a big flashing banner for the special needs section of the class.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:22 PM
Well, if you mentioned Williams why did No one mention Harrison?

Harrison's play is superior to Williams.

I'm sorry I didn't make a big flashing banner for the special needs section of the class.
BECAUSE HARRISON IS NOT THE BEST PLAYER

because someone is wrong, doesnt mean others have to be wrong too

and Harrison's play is not superior, but whatever, keep ur googles

Rayray52
10-09-2008, 04:43 PM
Mario williams had 14 sacks last year playing on a mediocore to terrible defensive front, he was consistantly facing double teams from opposing teams best blockers and was game planned around and still managed 14 sacks.....james harrison is a very solid system linebacker on a team that tends to inflate linebackers ability because of a great defensive front and scheme....comparing the two is ******** and pure homirism mario ftw.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-09-2008, 05:57 PM
I might agree with you on Aaron Smith, as he seems to be the biggest difference maker on our defense.

But if I give anyone on the Steelers credit.. I'm being a homer.

Woodley isn't developed enough to be better than Harrison at this point. Longevity wise, Yes I'd take Woodley as well.

I don't get your second paragraph. Reword.

You don't think that James Harrison has been a superior Player to Mario Williams?

James Harrison: 31 Tackles(21 solo, 9 Ast), 6.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 3 FF (1 resulting in a TD)
Mario Williams: 16 Tackles (12 Solo, 4 Ast), 4.0 Sacks, 1 FF

Harrison is +15 Tackles (9 Solo, 5 Ast) 2.5 Sacks, 1 PD, 2 FF's

Again, I see how Williams is Superior.

I guess part of that would be that the Steelers have other players the opponents would rather block? It's not like Travis Johnson is more of a threat to make a play than Mario.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-09-2008, 06:00 PM
My argument has again, ONLY BEEN If Williams is in Contention for Best Defensive player, then so is Harrison.

and No, the Steelers System doesn't Inflate LB Numbers. Joey Porter had what.. 6 sacks in 2007?, Haggans had 4 last year?

If we were blitzing a lot, I'd agree. We've blitzed 10 times this season, and only the ILB's/S's. So. I think your use of "The Steelers System" as a knock against Harrison is obtuse.

I agree that Williams has more potential than Harrison. Never argued it. Fact is, if he's not using the potential to the most, then what does it matter?

Lawrence Phillips had a TON of potential as well. That didn't make him a great NFL RB.

Williams has not reached his potential, and he's seemingly stymied.

I will never argue that Williams has superior potential. My argument is that Williams is a superior player now. Which is hasn't been thus far.

What the hell kind of definition is there for blitz? You're clearly bringing in OLBs, that is a blitz. When OLBs rush the passer, they are blitzing, or they're going completely against their assignments.

PS Lawrence ******* Phillips? You compare Mario to that bum? Mario has put up 14 sacks in the league, that POS never did anything.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 06:42 PM
This is stupid. These guys are the two best...

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/12/08/gallery.heismanboons/woodson.jpg

and

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Asante+Samuel+Portraits+38NYN-7Vd2el.jpg

Toneloc498
10-09-2008, 07:28 PM
I dont know if Osi is a better defensive end then Tuck is. Osi is defenitly the better edge rusher but Tuck is more versatile, he can play inside and can also play either DE spots and has played some standing linebacker before. Tuck at one point last year (I think it was week 14) was leading the league in tackles for loss for a defensive lineman so the myth that Tuck is not great at stopping the run is just that...a myth. Osi is decent against the run but hes not nearly as good as Tuck is. Tuck is going to be a beast for the Giants this year and when Osi comes back next year they both will benefit even more playing on the same line.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 09:22 PM
What the hell kind of definition is there for blitz? You're clearly bringing in OLBs, that is a blitz. When OLBs rush the passer, they are blitzing, or they're going completely against their assignments.

PS Lawrence ******* Phillips? You compare Mario to that bum? Mario has put up 14 sacks in the league, that POS never did anything.

Obviously you don't understand the 3-4.

in the 3-4, your OLB's are the primary Passrushers.

Harrison/Woodley are getting their sacks when we're only bringing 4 players.

I take it Merriman/Phillips, Ware/Spencer are blitzers? Not Passrushers? Then I take it that they're stats don't mean **** because they play in a 3-4 no?

When OLB's in a 4-3 come in, you're normally bringing 5+ Guys, therefore a blitz. In a 3-4 If you're only rushing 4, why is that considered a blitz when the 3-4 is predicated ON the OLB's being passrushers, or it'd be completely ******** to convert 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLB's.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-09-2008, 09:31 PM
Obviously you don't understand the 3-4.

in the 3-4, your OLB's are the primary Passrushers.

Harrison/Woodley are getting their sacks when we're only bringing 4 players.

I take it Merriman/Phillips, Ware/Spencer are blitzers? Not Passrushers? Then I take it that they're stats don't mean **** because they play in a 3-4 no?

When OLB's in a 4-3 come in, you're normally bringing 5+ Guys, therefore a blitz. In a 3-4 If you're only rushing 4, why is that considered a blitz when the 3-4 is predicated ON the OLB's being passrushers, or it'd be completely ******** to convert 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLB's.

Yeah, I'd call them blitzers. Now point me to where in ANY post I've ever made, where I discredit sacks from blitzes. I'll be waiting, right here. Find it. I beg of you.

MetSox17
10-09-2008, 09:31 PM
Obviously you don't understand the 3-4.

in the 3-4, your OLB's are the primary Passrushers.

Harrison/Woodley are getting their sacks when we're only bringing 4 players.

I take it Merriman/Phillips, Ware/Spencer are blitzers? Not Passrushers? Then I take it that they're stats don't mean **** because they play in a 3-4 no?

When OLB's in a 4-3 come in, you're normally bringing 5+ Guys, therefore a blitz. In a 3-4 If you're only rushing 4, why is that considered a blitz when the 3-4 is predicated ON the OLB's being passrushers, or it'd be completely ******** to convert 4-3 DE's to 3-4 OLB's.

Unless you're only sending Harrison OR Woodley, i get your argument. If you're sending both, you send five total, therefore it can be considered a blitz.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 09:36 PM
Unless you're only sending Harrison OR Woodley, i get your argument. If you're sending both, you send five total, therefore it can be considered a blitz.

Which has happened 1 time this season... which resulted in Woodley getting a FR for a TD.

However, We also have many occasions where Harrison Rushes and Brett Keisel drops into coverage.

I've even Seen us rush Woodley/Harrison with Keisel and Chris Hoke dropping in coverage.

We've rushed 5+ guys 10 times this year, only 2 Resulted in sacks.. of 1 was Harrison, the other was Foote.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 09:36 PM
Yeah, I'd call them blitzers. Now point me to where in ANY post I've ever made, where I discredit sacks from blitzes. I'll be waiting, right here. Find it. I beg of you.

So whats the difference.. because they don't rush the passer every down they're not passrushers, but they're blitzers? Even though it's still a 4 man Pass rush?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-09-2008, 09:41 PM
So whats the difference.. because they don't rush the passer every down they're not passrushers, but they're blitzers? Even though it's still a 4 man Pass rush?

Why are you changing the subject? You're the one who accused me of devaluing sacks resulting from blitzes.

BamaFalcon59
10-09-2008, 10:14 PM
I call bull on only bringing 5 or more guys 10 times. I'd say every team has brought 5 or more more than 10 times.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 10:17 PM
I call bull on only bringing 5 or more guys 10 times. I'd say every team has brought 5 or more more than 10 times.

Eagles did it in the first half against the Steelers.

MetSox17
10-09-2008, 10:29 PM
I call bull on only bringing 5 or more guys 10 times. I'd say every team has brought 5 or more more than 10 times.

Yeah, me too. I'm not buying that for one second.

MarioPalmer
10-09-2008, 11:07 PM
Just as a reminder to Mr.Stiller, there is also a huge advantage to rushing the passer standing up. If you don't believe me, watch the Texans vs. Raiders and Texans vs. Browns last year, Mario stood up twice and got a sack both times standing up. Just saying, how many 6'8 291lbs. DE's can stand up and rush the QB like a 3-4 OLB? I would bet not many if any at all.

Hines
10-09-2008, 11:19 PM
To Stiller, Harrison isnt the best player in the league defensively and not even on his team. I would take Farrior, Aaron Smith, and Poly over James. I love James like the rest of the Steelers fans, but that is obsurd.

Super Mario is an extreme talent. He isnt the best defensive player YET, but I think a few more seasons and he will. I think when healthy, Ed Reed is quite possibly the best defensive player in the league. Guy is so well rounded.

I also think Urlacher is up there, P-Willie, Aso, and hell, even JP.

Saying that James Harrison is top 5 defensive player in the league is almost as crazy as you saying that Parker is better then Larry Johnson.

Sniper
10-10-2008, 12:04 AM
To Stiller, Harrison isnt the best player in the league defensively and not even on his team. I would take Farrior, Aaron Smith, and Poly over James. I love James like the rest of the Steelers fans, but that is obsurd.

LAMARR LAMARR LAMARR LAMARR!!!!!!!!

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooodley!

Absurd, not obsurd.

steelersfan43
10-10-2008, 12:13 AM
To Stiller, Harrison isnt the best player in the league defensively and not even on his team. I would take Farrior, Aaron Smith, and Poly over James. I love James like the rest of the Steelers fans, but that is obsurd.

Super Mario is an extreme talent. He isnt the best defensive player YET, but I think a few more seasons and he will. I think when healthy, Ed Reed is quite possibly the best defensive player in the league. Guy is so well rounded.

I also think Urlacher is up there, P-Willie, Aso, and hell, even JP.

Saying that James Harrison is top 5 defensive player in the league is almost as crazy as you saying that Parker is better then Larry Johnson.
... he never said he was top five, all he said was he has been having more of an impact then mario williams has had this season.

bantx
10-10-2008, 12:38 AM
If Williams is in contention for Best Defensive Player in the league, then Haynesworth, Lewis, Harrison and quite a few other players deserve Mentioning.


Why Does Harrison deserve Mentioning? How about He's a machine as a passrusher (not blitzer) and he Causes a ton of Turnovers.



I'm sad no one mentioned James Harrison.

James is 6'0 242lbs. He literally threw all 6'9 370lbs of Jared Gaither aside As he Crushed Flacco.


Pound for Pound, James Harrison is one of if not the Best Defender in the league. The guy just is unstoppable.


umm what? how bout u pay attention

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 05:46 AM
umm what? how bout u pay attention

Sorry, I should've put [sarcasm] in for you.

Again, my whole point is..

1) Mario Williams had 1 great season, 2 mediocre ones thus far.
2) James Harrison was being more consistent in his play.

I mean forget I even mentioned Harrison because people are focusing more on that than the point I was trying to freakin make.

Mario Williams has the talent/potential to be the best. He's not. Not yet atleast.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 06:00 AM
Sorry, I should've put [sarcasm] in for you.

Again, my whole point is..

1) Mario Williams had 1 great season, 2 mediocre ones thus far.
2) James Harrison was being more consistent in his play.

I mean forget I even mentioned Harrison because people are focusing more on that than the point I was trying to freakin make.

Mario Williams has the talent/potential to be the best. He's not. Not yet atleast.
What defensive end really has an awesome season his rookie season?

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 06:41 AM
What defensive end really has an awesome season his rookie season?

Mark Anderson, Chicago Bears
Dwight Freeney, Indianapolis Colts
Simeon Rice
Julius Peppers, Carolina Panthers
Charles Grant, New Orleans Saints
Shaun Ellis, New York Jets
Darren Howard, Philadelphia Eagles
Terell Suggs, Baltimore Ravens
Jared Allen, Minnesota Vikings


I'm sure I could find more.

ATLDirtyBirds
10-10-2008, 06:50 AM
1) Mario Williams had 1 great season, 2 mediocre ones thus far.
2) James Harrison was being more consistent in his play.



Oh, so we are going by consistency now. How about from 04-06 when Harrison notched an incredible total of 4 sacks? Or last year when he got 8.5 after 16 games? Including none in his last 5 games.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 06:50 AM
okay now show me a defensive end that really had an awesome rookie season on a really really bad defense

Smooth Criminal
10-10-2008, 07:03 AM
To say Harrison has been consistant is hilarious. He is very good no doubt, but consistent? This is only his 2nd year starting and he was damn near invisible in the end of last season. He had some great games early but it seemed like he couldnt do anything toward the end of the season.

Is Mario the best player in the league? I don't think so. Hes a damn good DE and with more time likely will be one of the best, but as of now theres players Id rather have anchoring my defense than Mario.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 07:29 AM
Oh, so we are going by consistency now. How about from 04-06 when Harrison notched an incredible total of 4 sacks? Or last year when he got 8.5 after 16 games? Including none in his last 5 games.

Fine, you win, after I've said I'm not even trying to prove anything about Harrison.

Thanks for coming in about 4 hours later and not proving anything of the argument.

Thank you.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 07:31 AM
Fine, you win, after I've said I'm not even trying to prove anything about Harrison.

Thanks for coming in about 4 hours later and not proving anything of the argument.

Thank you.
He actually did, but well we dont expect you to undestand something like that even if it's that simple

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 07:32 AM
To say Harrison has been consistant is hilarious. He is very good no doubt, but consistent? This is only his 2nd year starting and he was damn near invisible in the end of last season. He had some great games early but it seemed like he couldnt do anything toward the end of the season.

Is Mario the best player in the league? I don't think so. Hes a damn good DE and with more time likely will be one of the best, but as of now theres players Id rather have anchoring my defense than Mario.

This season he has been.

Regardless. I was using Harrison as a comparable for Williams because I'm more familiar with him.

HARRISON ASIDE for the 30th time..

WILLIAMS HAS DONE NOTHING TO WARRANT "BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE TITLE" which has been my argument this ENTIRE time.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 07:32 AM
He actually did, but well we dont expect you to undestand something like that even if it's that simple

I understand you need to follow me around trying to prove me wrong. Why I don't know or don't care. You however have made about 30 comments proving nothing.

Which is why I don't know why you're still talking..

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 07:33 AM
This season? 5 games? So you think 5 games can determine consistency?
seriously though, why are u so full of yourself that u think people are following you around? you life must be wonderful

iloxygenil
10-10-2008, 08:30 AM
I'm glad you love Super Mario, and he's an absolute stud...however there are too many DEs that are far above his level right now to compare him to. He may be a very important cog in that Texan's rebuilding, but he's not the best DE in the league, much less defensive player.

I know he's old news, but anyone seen Ray play this year? Gah, Lewis is a monster again. How about Bob Sanders, Troy Polamalu, Ed Reed... Okay, DEs, you want DEs, here's a few for you in no order

1.) Aaron Kampman
2.) John Abraham
3.) Jared Allen
4.) Kyle Vandenbosch
5.) Patrick Kerney
6.) Will Smith

There are many others who are arguable as well...hell...most of those are just NFC guys. I won't say Freeney cause he's vastly overrated...even if he still is better. There are at least 10 DEs > Mario Williams at this point. Not saying he can't be the best, because he has a crazy skill set, but so does Peppers...look at him for the last season+ He just can't get it going for some reason. Williams I like, a lot, but he's not the best Defensive player in the NFL...not even remotely. I didn't even mention any of the members of the best defensive line in football either...the Giants (that pains me to say)

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 08:34 AM
okay now show me a defensive end that really had an awesome rookie season on a really really bad defense

Criteria: 6+ Sacks on a 15th or lower ranked Defense

Tony Brackens on the #15 Ranked Jacksonville Jaguars Defense.
Jevon Kearson on the #17 Ranked Tennessee Titans Defense.
John Henderson on the #20 Ranked Jacksonville Jaguars Defense. (Yeah the DT)
Simeon Rice on the #21 Ranked Arizona Cardinals Defense.
Kenny Holmes on the #22 Ranked Tennessee Oilers Defense.
Kevin Williams on the #23 Ranked Minnesota Vikings Defense.
Peter Boulware on the #25 Ranked Baltimore Ravens Defense.
Jason Taylor on the #26 Ranked Miami Dolphins Defense.
Kenechi Udeze on the #28 Ranked Minnesota Vikings Defense.
Kalimba Edwards on the #31 ranked Detroit Lions Defense.
Jared Allen on the #31 ranked Kansas City Chiefs Defense.

Thats just from 1996 to 2004.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 08:35 AM
This season? 5 games? So you think 5 games can determine consistency?
seriously though, why are u so full of yourself that u think people are following you around? you life must be wonderful

You seem to respond to every single one of my posts, never saying anything.

IF HE IS the best player in the league, then he should be consistent and dominant.

Not off and on. Oh and the post above. Great Rookie seasons on terrible defenses. Enjoy.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 08:42 AM
You seem to respond to every single one of my posts, never saying anything.

IF HE IS the best player in the league, then he should be consistent and dominant.

Not off and on. Oh and the post above. Great Rookie seasons on terrible defenses. Enjoy.
i am, but u never pay attention

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 08:47 AM
i am, but u never pay attention

You said name 1 "DE" that had an impact on a bad defense.

I outlined the Criteria and posted the results. Those guys in an 8 year span.

None being touted as the "Best Defensive Player in the League" their sophmore/Junior Seasons..

All have had more productive rookie Seasons than Mario.

I love the kid and his potential but, he's not in the running for Best Defensive Player in the league. He's not even the Best Defensive end in his division.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 08:50 AM
Criteria: 6+ Sacks on a 15th or lower ranked Defense

Tony Brackens on the #15 Ranked Jacksonville Jaguars Defense.
Jevon Kearson on the #17 Ranked Tennessee Titans Defense.
John Henderson on the #20 Ranked Jacksonville Jaguars Defense. (Yeah the DT)
Simeon Rice on the #21 Ranked Arizona Cardinals Defense.
Kenny Holmes on the #22 Ranked Tennessee Oilers Defense.
Kevin Williams on the #23 Ranked Minnesota Vikings Defense.
Peter Boulware on the #25 Ranked Baltimore Ravens Defense.
Jason Taylor on the #26 Ranked Miami Dolphins Defense.
Kenechi Udeze on the #28 Ranked Minnesota Vikings Defense.
Kalimba Edwards on the #31 ranked Detroit Lions Defense.
Jared Allen on the #31 ranked Kansas City Chiefs Defense.

Thats just from 1996 to 2004.
how about #31?

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 08:59 AM
And which of those players had a foot injury? And what exactly does his rookie season have to do with him playing right now?

The man asked me to prove who had a more productive Rookie Season on a bad defense.

I did what I was asked?

I don't know how many had a foot injury.

And Lastly, The only thing I've said is that he's not the best defensive player in the league.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 09:00 AM
seriously im not even argueing he is the best. He is certainly better than Harrison

and thats not the only thing uve said...

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 09:01 AM
how about #31?

Jared Allen? What about him?

9.0 Sacks as a Rookie on the #31 Ranked Defense in the league.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 09:01 AM
Jared Allen? What about him?

9.0 Sacks as a Rookie on the #31 Ranked Defense in the league.
yea, and jared allen is a great player. So one guy?

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 09:02 AM
seriously im not even argueing he is the best. He is certainly better than Harrison

and thats not the only thing uve said...

Fine, He's better than Harrison. But again, you don't argue the Points I'm making now, you just keep jumping back to something else.

I said Forget Harrison, Fine, I was in idiot? Happy?

Regardless, You asked about Good Producers on Bad defenses as a Rookie. I provided it.

and Again, you jump to something else because you can't.

And yet now your not arguing that Williams is the best?

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 09:03 AM
Fine, He's better than Harrison. But again, you don't argue the Points I'm making now, you just keep jumping back to something else.

I said Forget Harrison, Fine, I was in idiot? Happy?

Regardless, You asked about Good Producers on Bad defenses as a Rookie. I provided it.

and Again, you jump to something else because you can't.

And yet now your not arguing that Williams is the best?
Yes because that was the orginial intention of my posts that u didnt understand. Find me one post where I said Mario Williams is the best.

It ******* started with me saying Harrison doesnt belong in this discussion and he obviously doesnt.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 09:04 AM
yea, and jared allen is a great player. So one guy?

....

You said and I quote:

okay now show me a defensive end that really had an awesome rookie season on a really really bad defense

In an 8 year span.. I provided this:

Tony Brackens on the #15 Ranked Jacksonville Jaguars Defense.
Jevon Kearson on the #17 Ranked Tennessee Titans Defense.
John Henderson on the #20 Ranked Jacksonville Jaguars Defense. (Yeah the DT)
Simeon Rice on the #21 Ranked Arizona Cardinals Defense.
Kenny Holmes on the #22 Ranked Tennessee Oilers Defense.
Kevin Williams on the #23 Ranked Minnesota Vikings Defense.
Peter Boulware on the #25 Ranked Baltimore Ravens Defense.
Jason Taylor on the #26 Ranked Miami Dolphins Defense.
Kenechi Udeze on the #28 Ranked Minnesota Vikings Defense.
Kalimba Edwards on the #31 ranked Detroit Lions Defense.
Jared Allen on the #31 ranked Kansas City Chiefs Defense.


There's 9 DE's on REALLY REALLY Bad defenses and 1 DT, that produced More than Williams.

Now your ignoring 9 of the players to focus on one?

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 09:05 AM
Yes because that was the orginial intention of my posts that u didnt understand. Find me one post where I said Mario Williams is the best.

It ******* started with me saying Harrison doesnt belong in this discussion and he obviously doesnt.

To which I said Fine, He doesn't, And I continued to argue Williams doesn't either.

You're the only one still bringing Harrison up.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 09:06 AM
ur saying Kalimba Edwards had a better rookie season than mario williams? really?

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 09:10 AM
ur saying Kalimba Edwards had a better rookie season than mario williams? really?

Kalimba had 36 Tackles, 6.5 Sacks and 4 Passes defended as a Rookie (Starting a Mere 4 games)

Williams had 47 Tackles 4.5 Sacks and 3 Passes defended as a Rookie (Starting all 16 games)

I'm saying Edwards had a more productive Rookie Season than Williams.

Again, you said find ANY DE that produced on a bad Defense, as a Rookie.

I did, now your trying to refute it. Never once did I say Kalimba Edwards is a superior player, he's not. But he had a better Rookie Season.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 10:55 AM
hey im not saying he had a great season, i just figured DE have pretty hard time getting used to the speed. Apparently he did not have that great of a rookie season and well he was injured. But if u say that then, why is the current season mediocre?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2008, 11:05 AM
Sorry, I should've put [sarcasm] in for you.



Yeah, sure buddy. There's a reason you have a major reputation as a huge homer.

And iloxygenil, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you. For this season, I'd say he's 4th on that list at worst.

Also Stiller, you can't say he's had 2 mediocre seasons and one good one. He's gettinga sack per game on average this year. That's a good ******* season.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 11:08 AM
hey im not saying he had a great season, i just figured DE have pretty hard time getting used to the speed. Apparently he did not have that great of a rookie season and well he was injured. But if u say that then, why is the current season mediocre?

Bolded: Yes I don't doubt that his rookie season was marred with injury. But at the same time other DE's have been effective in similar and even worse defenses.

Italics: He disappears. Fine he's getting double teamed. My argument for the sake of his season was mediocre was the sheer fact he's being considered by some as the best defensive player.

The fact is, whoever the best defensive player in the game is going to be schemed against, the difference is.. they rise above it and still make a significant impact. He's not.

Sure his defense isn't the best, but that shouldn't derail him from playing above his competition. He has 2 1st rounders on that defensive line with him and a former DROTY at MLB.

He's got 4 sacks and 16 Tackles, 1 FF. He's not honestly making a huge impact.

I mean reading on here many people are uninspired with Chris Longs play.. he has 16 Tackles and 2 Sacks.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 11:10 AM
He does, seriously who on that line should be double teamed instead of him? He still got 4 sacks.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 11:11 AM
Yeah, sure buddy. There's a reason you have a major reputation as a huge homer.

And iloxygenil, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you. For this season, I'd say he's 4th on that list at worst.

Also Stiller, you can't say he's had 2 mediocre seasons and one good one. He's gettinga sack per game on average this year. That's a good ******* season.

I may be a huge homer, Fine. Whatever. Don't care. You want to ignore all my points because I'm biased against my home team.. fine.

Now. A sack per game average is not a mediocre season, but catapults him (and only him) into "Best defensive player in the league status"?

There's several other players averaging "a Sack Per game" or better, but we're not allowed to discuss them...

Why not, if they're doing better statistically than the "BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE" Defensively, then, doesn't their play Merit discussion?

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 11:17 AM
I may be a huge homer, Fine. Whatever. Don't care. You want to ignore all my points because I'm biased against my home team.. fine.

Now. A sack per game average is not a mediocre season, but catapults him (and only him) into "Best defensive player in the league status"?

There's several other players averaging "a Sack Per game" or better, but we're not allowed to discuss them...

Why not, if they're doing better statistically than the "BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE" Defensively, then, doesn't their play Merit discussion?
No, it doesnt. Why do u think if someone says something wrong, u can do say well he did something wrong so i will too

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2008, 11:18 AM
I may be a huge homer, Fine. Whatever. Don't care. You want to ignore all my points because I'm biased against my home team.. fine.

Now. A sack per game average is not a mediocre season, but catapults him (and only him) into "Best defensive player in the league status"?

There's several other players averaging "a Sack Per game" or better, but we're not allowed to discuss them...

Why not, if they're doing better statistically than the "BEST PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE" Defensively, then, doesn't their play Merit discussion?

Never said he's the best defensive player in the league. Nor did I ever say I devalue sacks resulting from blitzes, so now you have 2 quotes to find.

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 11:19 AM
He does, seriously who on that line should be double teamed instead of him? He still got 4 sacks.

Ok, who should be double teamed instead of Albert Haynesworth, who has 5 sacks from the DT Position.

Call me a homer for this one, But I know during the Baltimore and Jacksonville games that James Harrison was facing double teams. He had 3.5 Sacks in that 2 game span.

How about John Abraham? 7.0 sacks. Who on that DL is actually pulling Double Teams from him?

now Ignore the Haynesworth and Abraham comments to only mention my "Homerism" for Harrison.

There's 3 cases of guys who have beaten Double teams to make MORE sacks than Mario Williams.

Outside of Haynesworth, I doubt Abraham or Harrison get mentioned.

And if you need to, ignore the entire Harrison comment. There's 2 guys devoid of talent on their line (Atleast compared to their own) who are beating double teams and at a much greater rate.

and Yet Mario Williams who isn't, Is considered the Best defensive player in the league.

marks01234
10-10-2008, 11:20 AM
This season he has been.

Regardless. I was using Harrison as a comparable for Williams because I'm more familiar with him.

HARRISON ASIDE for the 30th time..

WILLIAMS HAS DONE NOTHING TO WARRANT "BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER IN THE LEAGUE TITLE" which has been my argument this ENTIRE time.

You do realize that Mario Williams entered the league as a 21 year old rookie who came out after his true junior season. He was two years younger than Quinton Moses and Gaines Adams, players selected the year after him. Had Mario redshirted and stayed for his senior year, he would have been a rookie this year. Several players drafted in last years draft were older than he was. On either side of the line, this is a huge deal. You are not comparing apples to apples when you compare a 21 year old rookie defensive end and a 23 year old rookie defensive end.

Also, Mario nursed a foot injury for almost all his rookie season.

The past year and five weeks, Mario has been absolutely dominate. He has four sacks and a FF in four games where he has been dominate against the run, dropping back in coverage and fighting off double teams, QB rolling out to the opposite side of the field and absolutely no pass rush from anybody else on his line.

Also, Ed Reed is an awesome players. However, the leagues best defensive player shouldn't be a S. It almost always should be a DE. DE's are just in a position to make much more of a difference in a game, similar to how a QB or a LT is on offense. Would you ever think about calling TO the best offensive player in the league? Probably not, because he only touches the ball 10-12 times a game at most. Would you ever consider calling Steve Hutchinson the best offensive player in the league? Certainly not, even though the disparity between him (along with Flancea) and other OG's in league may have been greater than any other position just a few years ago.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 11:22 AM
john abraham faced the lions and the chiefs and got 5 sacks out of there.

Haynesworth is without a doubt a monster

Harrison also had 2 games where he rarely had any thing statistically.

How about u comment what the guy said that opened the thread?

Mario Williams is quite possibly the finest defensive end to watch in the entire league. here else do you get to see a 6'8 291lbs. DE play with this kind of speed, explosion, strength and above all probably the most physically impressive athleticism you may ever see in the entire NFL. Mario had 2 sacks today against the all mighty Peyton Manning and the Indianapolis Colts and at least 4 QB pressures and 1 knockdown. Not to mention the countless times the Colts ran away from him and the times they did they were stuffed. I know there are more productive units out there that have defensive ends that put up similar numbers, but none with the amount of backups and stop gaps that Mario plays with.
Its not all about sacks u know

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 11:26 AM
Also, Ed Reed is an awesome players. However, the leagues best defensive player shouldn't be a S. It almost always should be a DE. DE's are just in a position to make much more of a difference in a game, similar to how a QB or a LT is on offense. Would you ever think about calling TO the best offensive player in the league? Probably not, because he only touches the ball 10-12 times a game at most. Would you ever consider calling Steve Hutchinson the best offensive player in the league? Certainly not, even though the disparity between him (along with Flancea) and other OG's in league may have been greater than any other position just a few years ago.

I have to disagree here. There is a reason people think Jerry Rice is the best player ever to play the game

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 11:26 AM
Never said he's the best defensive player in the league. Nor did I ever say I devalue sacks resulting from blitzes, so now you have 2 quotes to find.

Then if you're agreeing that Williams isn't the best defensive player in the league, why are you arguing with me? You essentially agreed with the point I've been making.

What the hell kind of definition is there for blitz? You're clearly bringing in OLBs, that is a blitz. When OLBs rush the passer, they are blitzing, or they're going completely against their assignments.

PS Lawrence ******* Phillips? You compare Mario to that bum? Mario has put up 14 sacks in the league, that POS never did anything.

I apologize, you never discredited "Blitz Sacks". My question is.

if you're only bringing 4 guys.. is it a blitz? I would assume if you're only bringing 3-4 guys it's a normal passrush.

I always was in the thinking, it's only a blitz if your bringing more than a standard 4 man passrush. To which a few people here I believe agreed with me.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 11:32 AM
It is not a blitz as a play, the linebacker is still blitzing as an assignement. 2 different things

marks01234
10-10-2008, 11:35 AM
Ok, who should be double teamed instead of Albert Haynesworth, who has 5 sacks from the DT Position.

Call me a homer for this one, But I know during the Baltimore and Jacksonville games that James Harrison was facing double teams. He had 3.5 Sacks in that 2 game span.

How about John Abraham? 7.0 sacks. Who on that DL is actually pulling Double Teams from him?

now Ignore the Haynesworth and Abraham comments to only mention my "Homerism" for Harrison.

There's 3 cases of guys who have beaten Double teams to make MORE sacks than Mario Williams.

Outside of Haynesworth, I doubt Abraham or Harrison get mentioned.

And if you need to, ignore the entire Harrison comment. There's 2 guys devoid of talent on their line (Atleast compared to their own) who are beating double teams and at a much greater rate.

and Yet Mario Williams who isn't, Is considered the Best defensive player in the league.

Mario has played one less game than those guys. You should also look at QB hurries for the season (I have no idea who would rank where but often they can be a bigger indicator of pass rushing success than sacks).

Have you actually watched any of Mario this season or are you just going off stats?

You can make a case for all of those guys being the best defensive player in the league but I'm going to say your wrong - hands down. Mario Williams is the best defensive end at rushing the passer and playing the run since Bruce Smith and Reggie White were in their primes. Yes, he does it exposed overpursueing and will bite on some pump fakes, etc. Yes, he needs to work some on keeping his hands up and making plays after the pass is thrown. Yes, his pass rushing moves still need expanding. But nobody draws more of the defenses attention and still makes plays.

Harrison, plays the rush 3-4 OLB spot, a position which seemly always breeds incredible playmakers. I'm not sure that Harrison is anybody than Meriman two seasons ago or much better than Ware.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 11:38 AM
Its def. not hands down and i couldnt compare him with the other two guys. He is definitely top5 DE for me and up there but i dont think he is the best defensive player yet