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View Full Version : Reggie Bush after 2 years and 5 games?


MarioPalmer
10-06-2008, 11:15 PM
So, after a awesome SPECIAL TEAMS performance and yet another pedestrian performance as a running back is it safe to say that Reggie Bush is a scat back that is a much better KR/PR than franchise back that can go out for the pass? My question to Saints fans or Reggie Bush fans is this, right now; would you rather have Adrian Peterson or Reggie Bush? I know which one I would pick, but I wanted to know who you would pick.

Iíve seen Bush play 3 times this year and I am even less impressed than I was last year. I think that his offensive potential is limited enormously and that he is only best used as the 2nd back on the depth chart and the primary 3rd down back. The running plays just donít work for him. He has less than adequate strength to hold up running between the tackles and his sped is negated by the speed of NFL defenders that can meet him at the corner when he tries to turn it. He has also fallen into some very bad habits in terms of his running technique. He has one hand on the ball and holds it away from his body. Twice tonight, once after a run and once after a catch he had the ball knocked, not stripped, but knocked away from his body because he was holding it to the outside of his body and because he was waving it around.

With the accuracy of Drew Bees and the offensive potential of the Saints offense I would have thought that by now Reggie Bush would be their go to guy and he is clearly not. He is being used as a scat back and a primary 3rd down player in passing downs. Also, I have yet to see him stand in and block for Brees on passing downs as well. Maybe the Saints donít want to use him that way, but none the less he needs to be at least a solid blocker to be considered a great all around player.

May concerns are this; I feel that Reggie Bush has found his nich in the NFL. He is the new Desmond Howard. By that I mean he is a much dangerous player when in space and what better place to put Bush in space than on kick return and punt returns. I have a feeling that he will not be resigned as a franchise back and that the only way he resigns after the 2010 season is as a KR/PR/3rd down back. So to me that means that his value at #2 overall was grossly misjudged and that in the classic terms of bust he might fit the bill.

I say this because I look at top feature backs that are picked in the top 10 to be one type of player and that is a feature back that can carry the load and carry his team on his back. I look at guys like Adrian Peterson, Ronnie Brown, LaDainain Tomlinson, Ricky Williams, Jamal Lewis, Edgerrin James, Fred Taylor, etc. I see the Reggie Bush pick as successful as the Desmond Howard pick at most, no more no less. There really isnít a way to defend the argument if you would pick Bush over a feature back that is also picked as high as he was. And I also feel that this is what we will get from him the rest of his career. I look at Reggie Bush as a Felix Jones and thatís where I believe that Bush should have been drafted now looking back on the 2006 NFL Draft. I would like to say that he may be as good as Chris Johnson, but Johnson has proven to be able to carry a heavy load and the ability to run through the tackles with enough power and strength to hold up. Bush to me is not the savior that he was made out to be and I think that he is only getting a pass right now because of his special teams ability.

What do you guys think?

PoopSandwich
10-06-2008, 11:24 PM
Hes damn good at catching the ball out of the back field and when he gets open space hes a great runner, some plays he was dodging hits in the back field, not his fault when guys are in the backfield when hes getting the ball.

D-Unit
10-06-2008, 11:24 PM
I think Reggie Bush helps his team a lot. If the Saints had a chance to take Adrian Peterson that would be one thing, but they didn't, so I don't know what point you are trying to a make. With the players that were available, I think they made the best pick that they could have.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 11:26 PM
Why does Reggie get flamed, but every other back gets the pass for poor blocking?

I think this game showed more than anything that no one can run with poor blocking, not Reggie, not Deuce, not even Adrian Peterson.

Shane P. Hallam
10-06-2008, 11:27 PM
I think most people would take AD of course, but Bush is good at what he does. He is still a gamechanger, but he's not a "RB." Honestly, if he was labeled as a "WR" that caught balls in the flats and tore it up with YAC, he'd be looked at as one of the best WRs right now in the game.

djp
10-06-2008, 11:27 PM
Mario Williams was clearly the better pick two years later. I would love to see the tape of the ESPN analysts absolutely blasting the Texans for taking Super Mario right now.

Reggie Bush is dynamic and electrifying -- but not an every down player. He is soooo afraid of contact it's disturbing.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have him on my team (not like we'd use him properly).

On any other team outside of MAYBE Dallas, I don't think he has half the success that he has now.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 11:28 PM
If Reggie ran behind Dallas or Philly's line, his YPC would be ungodly.

IceKubes
10-06-2008, 11:33 PM
If Reggie can just improve his running game a bit I will say that he was worth the pick. I've been skeptical for a while but he changed that game around for the Saints big time today and has been great catching the ball this year. Also needs to work on ball security a bit but I think that problem goes hand in hand with his running because I think hes so focused on breaking a big one that a defender can catch him by surprise.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 11:35 PM
I just want someone to explain why our two other RB's, who have proven consistency as runners behind good run blocking, can't run the ball for **** right now either.

Anyone?

IceKubes
10-06-2008, 11:39 PM
I just want someone to explain why our two other RB's, who have proven consistency as runners behind good run blocking, can't run the ball for **** right now either.

Anyone?

Maybe its just a mentality thing? You guys throw the ball so much and are so successful at it that maybe you are just not getting into a rhythm with the ground game. Also Deuce doesn't look like himself, is he much more than a short yardage guy now? Just a thought, I don't watch the Saints enough to say with much certainty.

illmatic74
10-06-2008, 11:39 PM
Why does Reggie get flamed, but every other back gets the pass for poor blocking?

I think this game showed more than anything that no one can run with poor blocking, not Reggie, not Deuce, not even Adrian Peterson. his career ypc is under 4 thats why. The Saints block well inside but Bush has this never ending need to take everything outside.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 11:41 PM
Maybe its just a mentality thing? You guys throw the ball so much and are so successful at it that maybe you are just not getting into a rhythm with the ground game. Also Deuce doesn't look like himself, is he much more than a short yardage guy now? Just a thought, I don't watch the Saints enough to say with much certainty.

Exactly! we abandon the run way to early, strong running teams start out running, but its in the end of the game where all the big yards come. Deuce looks better than he did in 06, shiftier for sure, and quicker.

illmatic, if you think we block well inside, I really don't know what to say, and if we did, Ican't figure out why no one can run up the middle, not Deuce, or Thomas, or Bush.

TitleTown088
10-06-2008, 11:47 PM
On any other team outside of MAYBE Dallas, I don't think he has half the success that he has now.

I think Bush would succeed mightily in the Packers offense.

MarioPalmer
10-06-2008, 11:47 PM
I just want someone to explain why our two other RB's, who have proven consistency as runners behind good run blocking, can't run the ball for **** right now either.

Anyone?

I wasn't trying to flame Reggie Bush, I think that we as fans, well as knowledgable fans, see that Bush is what he is, a KR/PR/Scat back. I'm not saying he isn't great at what he does, I definitly think he is, but I think considering where he was drafted that he has let down a lot of people. I looked at him coming out of college as a game changing offensive player that would be the go to guy like he was at USC. But he isn't, and he hasn't been. In other ways he has definitly helped out his team, but I think that he is more of a slash type player than a true position and to me personally he doesn't warrent his draft status.

I truely believe that if the Saints could have done it all over again, and with them still getting Marques Colston in the 7th they would have gone the other way, knowing then what they know now.

I would definitly see them benefitingmore from a Haloti Ngata pick, A.J. Hawk, Donte Whitnor (even though safeties don't go top 3) or even Ernie Sims. I think that Reggie Bush is what he is.

My original point of this thread was to discuss Reggie Bush because I was actually insulted when Tony Kornheiser was saying that Reggie Bush was this all world back that had this break out game. It, to me, to a knowledgable fan, was quite insulting. He kept going on how Adrian Peterson should take notes of Reggie Bush's play style and I had to ask myself, before I almost kicked in my TV, is the Reggie Bush college hype still following this guy around? I know he is good at what he does, but the love for a player that has normal impact for a player at his position is mind boggling.

D-Unit
10-06-2008, 11:49 PM
The Saints are using Bush correctly. Bush shouldn't be blamed for the running back woes there. USC laid out the blue print on how to use Bush. It's just that the Saints don't have that powerful RB ala LenDale White. People who thought Bush was ever going to be a powerful inside runner were foolish to think that in the first place. People who thought he'd be a dynamic weapon see that in fruition.

critesy
10-06-2008, 11:50 PM
i am a huge reggie fan annnnd tonight he was constantly breaking tackles in the backfield to get back to the LOS.

with reggie you're obviously not going to use him as an in between the tackles runner every down but you can and he will get you 2-3 yards consistantly, but when you run him to the outside where he will consistantly get you better gains.

on top of that he gets mismatches all the time coming out of the backfield with linebackers and safeties. and really with all this happening defenses clue into reggie and gameplan on how to stop this and when they double cover him it just opens up so many more things to happen.

now with his blocking tonight, i was suuuuper impressed with the way he handled a lot of blocks, he is really improving a lot in this area.

to top this off, he is just the definition of a playmaker.with special teams he usually wins the field position battle for you and once and awhile he'll take one back for a touchdown. reggie is really starting to pick it up this year and im excited for it.

i love the pick and think he'll continue to progress and be a great runningback.

MarioPalmer
10-06-2008, 11:50 PM
Oh, and Saints Tigers, your right about Deuce, he looks like a beast again. Like his old self. I've always loved Deuce, he just oozes NFL quality power back and it's really fun to watch him play.

I give him till about the 8th game till he finally feels extremely confident and puts up his power numbers again. Give him a couple of more weeks and I think his sawagger will come back. Oh, and I will say one thing, OG Duke Robinson from Oklahoma will look mighty good in the Saints' Black and Gold...lol

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 11:51 PM
I just disagree though, you can't run without blocking, Adrian Peterson learned that tonight.

No one can run, we haven't been able to run the ball since the second half of 2006, and Reggie and Deuce were both running wild, but we CANT run the ball with anyone right now, because there are no running lanes to the inside, all of it has to go outside, it's just how it is until we fix our issues on the line.

This still all sounds eerily similar to Brian Westbrook back in the day, I know people will say it's different now, but the EXACT same things were said when he was the second guy to Duce Staley.

Kurve
10-06-2008, 11:52 PM
I think Bush will get the credit he deserves later in his career, now he is suspect to many viewers due to his lack of being a conventional running back but the guy leads his team in recs every year and he is a game changer. I think 10 years from now people will really look at his career and say he has changed the position of a conventional running back bush,westbrook. Teams will look for backs like them who are versatile like that and really spread the defense with there play.

619
10-06-2008, 11:52 PM
If you look at DeSean Jackson that's right around the kinda player Bush could be as a wideout, imo. However in saying that he's too valuable of a weapon in the Saints offense at the moment to consider such a radical move anytime soon.

holt_bruce81
10-06-2008, 11:52 PM
The Saints didn't draft Reggie to be a #1 runningback, they drafted him for his athleticism and his game changing ability. Get him on returns, put him in the slot, he's not going to be a 20-25 carry guy and everyone knew that when he came out of college. But he will be a player who touches the ball 20-25 times. Maybe he hasn't met peoples expectations, heck who could? He was being compared to the next Gale Sayers. But he most certainly is not a bust and IMO is worth the #2 draft pick the Saints took him at.

MarioPalmer
10-06-2008, 11:54 PM
Thats cool critesy, I wanted to know from Saints and Bush fans what you guys see. I don't think he's not a playmaker, I just don't see the super man ability that others see. I think he is best suited for short passes that put him in space and letting him take returns for, like you said, field position and the ability to break a long one. I guess if the Dolphins take Ted Ginn Jr. in the top 10 then the Saints taking Bush in the top 3 isn't that much out of the ordinary. I just wish maybe that he was more consistent running the ball and being more of a Marshal Faulk then Felix Jones type.

Saints-Tigers
10-06-2008, 11:55 PM
Oh, and Saints Tigers, your right about Deuce, he looks like a beast again. Like his old self. I've always loved Deuce, he just oozes NFL quality power back and it's really fun to watch him play.

I give him till about the 8th game till he finally feels extremely confident and puts up his power numbers again. Give him a couple of more weeks and I think his sawagger will come back. Oh, and I will say one thing, OG Duke Robinson from Oklahoma will look mighty good in the Saints' Black and Gold...lol


I love you.

all of it, I love you.

I just left my girl, I'm coming get you.

I knew Deuce was back when he leaped into the endzone last week, his explosion was there!

I think Reggie will be fine though, but maybe everyone has different expectations, but if we sure up the offensive line, and he gets up over 4 yards a carry, and gets to 1200-1300 rushing yards, with his big play ability, and his receiving, I'd say he's a huge success.

I agree with Critesy though, he really doesn't get the credit he deserves just for getting back to the line when he's hit in the backfield.

I want Duke Robinson badly, and I want Stinchcomb and Goodwin out baddererer.

I'll take Duke and Alex Mack as our first picks in the draft, and be ecstatic :D

Edit: Also, Reggie would beast in Felix Jones role. Did you see his run yesterday? have you ever seen a run where Reggie takes a toss and gets to run untouched into the endzone?

illmatic74
10-06-2008, 11:55 PM
Exactly! we abandon the run way to early, strong running teams start out running, but its in the end of the game where all the big yards come. Deuce looks better than he did in 06, shiftier for sure, and quicker.

illmatic, if you think we block well inside, I really don't know what to say, and if we did, Ican't figure out why no one can run up the middle, not Deuce, or Thomas, or Bush.
It wasn't great tonight but in Bush's career with New Orleans Deuce and thomas have had higher yards per carry.

Kurve
10-07-2008, 12:00 AM
Mario Williams was clearly the better pick two years later. I would love to see the tape of the ESPN analysts absolutely blasting the Texans for taking Super Mario right now.

Reggie Bush is dynamic and electrifying -- but not an every down player. He is soooo afraid of contact it's disturbing.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have him on my team (not like we'd use him properly).

On any other team outside of MAYBE Dallas, I don't think he has half the success that he has now.


Big question to what shocked people about the whole mario deal was the fact that mario really wasnt that consistent in college we all know how many prospects become busts due to lack of performance in college and mainly on measurables. Luckily for texas it panned out but i think any team would of taken up a player like mario if he played up to his measurables in college.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:02 AM
Also, the one last thing, people always say he's not going to carry it 20-25 times a game... but that's ALWAYS when he's had his best performances, when he gets a rhythm with consistent carries.

He was 5'10.5 and 206 pounds at the combine, and he benched 225 like 24 times, and he's certainly bigger than that now, and he's never really been injury prone.

When he first got here, he was horrid as a runner, trying to hit homeruns every play, but during the second half of his rookie season, he figured it out, he went from like 2.6 to 4.5 yards per carry from the first 8 games, to the second 8. in 2007, the line was total trash, no one could run again, then Jonathan Goodwin emerged in Jeff Faine's wake, and it seemed like it would work out, but he has been pretty disappointing this year, and once again, we are having trouble with everyone.

Just open some holes, create some cutback lanes, and Reggie will be fine. He's not going to excel if he has to break tackles in the backfield all game. Give him some huge maulers, and let him get to the second level where he does his real damage.

He needs to wrap the ball up a bit better though, he tends to just let it go as he goes down.

illmatic74
10-07-2008, 12:03 AM
The Saints didn't draft Reggie to be a #1 runningback, they drafted him for his athleticism and his game changing ability. Get him on returns, put him in the slot, he's not going to be a 20-25 carry guy and everyone knew that when he came out of college. But he will be a player who touches the ball 20-25 times. Maybe he hasn't met peoples expectations, heck who could? He was being compared to the next Gale Sayers. But he most certainly is not a bust and IMO is worth the #2 draft pick the Saints took him at. He is not even the best HB in his own draft class. Maroney, Jones-Drew, Williams and Addai pre 2008

PoopSandwich
10-07-2008, 12:05 AM
Reggie is a fantastic player, he may not have great yards per carry, but a lot of the times when I watch the Saints, players are in the backfield pretty damn fast.

People need to look what he does as a running back catching the ball, he gets to go up against linebackers alot of the time, which he can out run... When he has to go up against corners all the time and safeties and run timing routes and what not all the time, it changes. You have to account for Reggie as a receiving threat and a running threat when he's in as a running back, and he does a good job running, a great job receiving, and an amazing job at drawing the defenses attention and opening up the field for no names like Devery Henderson and Lance Moore.

MarioPalmer
10-07-2008, 12:05 AM
I love you.

all of it, I love you.

I just left my girl, I'm coming get you.

I knew Deuce was back when he leaped into the endzone last week, his explosion was there!

I think Reggie will be fine though, but maybe everyone has different expectations, but if we sure up the offensive line, and he gets up over 4 yards a carry, and gets to 1200-1300 rushing yards, with his big play ability, and his receiving, I'd say he's a huge success.

I agree with Critesy though, he really doesn't get the credit he deserves just for getting back to the line when he's hit in the backfield.

I want Duke Robinson badly, and I want Stinchcomb and Goodwin out baddererer.

I'll take Duke and Alex Mack as our first picks in the draft, and be ecstatic :D

Edit: Also, Reggie would beast in Felix Jones role. Did you see his run yesterday? have you ever seen a run where Reggie takes a toss and gets to run untouched into the endzone?

lol...Don't think my girl would be too happy about that, but we'll see....lol

I see where you guys are coming from, I'm definitly going to take that approach from now on when watching him. I've always used the conventional approach of "this is how a running back should play". BUt as a playmaker he definitly looks and plays the role. And you are right, Bush would be much more productive player on a team like the Cowboys who have an excellent line that run blocks with tenacity and toughness and make sure that their backs get lanes to get up through.

I will definitly pay more attention and use that approach rather then the conventional one that I was using. Thanks.

Oh, and Duke Robinson would clean up your inside woes in a hurry, I still can't believe that the Saints let Jeff Faine walk. I thought he was perfect for your team down there. He was smart, technical and was turning his creer around and finally living up to his lofty expecations when he entered the league as a 1rst rounder with the Browns. Kinda pisses me off that a team would let not just LeCharles Bentley leave, but Jeff Faine too, when to me, the center position is so damn hard to find, especially a talented one as those 2. BUt hey, maybe you do get Alex Mack, he looks monsterous aswell.

critesy
10-07-2008, 12:05 AM
yeah thats one of the negatives i see in him, is just the ball treatment he has, his first year was good with the ball but last year was pretty bad and now this game wasnt too great but ya... hah.

Kurve
10-07-2008, 12:08 AM
He is not even the best HB in his own draft class. Maroney, Jones-Drew, Williams and Addai pre 2008


actually its been said that maroney hates to run through the tackles he prefers to run it outside from what i hear pats arent truelly sold on maroney due to that.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:09 AM
lol...Don't think my girl would be too happy about that, but we'll see....lol

I see where you guys are coming from, I'm definitly going to take that approach from now on when watching him. I've always used the conventional approach of "this is how a running back should play". BUt as a playmaker he definitly looks and plays the role. And you are right, Bush would be much more productive player on a team like the Cowboys who have an excellent line that run blocks with tenacity and toughness and make sure that their backs get lanes to get up through.

I will definitly pay more attention and use that approach rather then the conventional one that I was using. Thanks.

Oh, and Duke Robinson would clean up your inside woes in a hurry, I still can't believe that the Saints let Jeff Faine walk. I thought he was perfect for your team down there. He was smart, technical and was turning his creer around and finally living up to his lofty expecations when he entered the league as a 1rst rounder with the Browns. Kinda pisses me off that a team would let not just LeCharles Bentley leave, but Jeff Faine too, when to me, the center position is so damn hard to find, especially a talented one as those 2. BUt hey, maybe you do get Alex Mack, he looks monsterous aswell.


I miss LeCharles bad, he was a monster, I bet Deuce misses him too. Jeff Faine really regressed last year and got pushed around like crazy, and was really hurting us in the passing game, and the running, that's why Brees was forced to get the ball out so fast.

Look, Im always the first to criticize a player on my team, I just don't see the backs as the problem right now, because whenever he is given a bit of time to run, he looks great.

He's never going to be a guy that gets a consistent 4 yards behind a poor line, but he can be a guy that gets you much more when you open some holes.

Flyboy
10-07-2008, 12:28 AM
Oh vey. Here we go again. In his third season, Bush is showing to be what we drafted him to be. A weapon. Not just a RB. Weapon. Can be used all over the field to create mismatches and making big plays. He does just that especially early thus far in the season.

He won the TB game for us. Put us in position to win the Redskins game. Put us in position to win tonight. I don't know what you want from one player.

Basileus777
10-07-2008, 12:51 AM
He is not even the best HB in his own draft class. Maroney, Jones-Drew, Williams and Addai pre 2008

I'll grant you MJD and Addai, but there is no way Maroney or Williams are better than Bush.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:54 AM
Also, if I remember correctly, football outsiders has our RB's getting stuffed behind the line for a higher percentage of runs than any other team.. Yup, 32nd in the league in that regard.

Yea, was just looking at it, we are 4th in the league when we run behind the LT, at 5.64 adjusted line yards, 22nd off the left end, 18th when running up the gut(shocked? I know!), 26th of the right tackle, and 24th to the right end.

Also, we run behind the left tackle only 12% of the time.

Moral of the story? Now especially with Carl Nicks being inserted, run the ball behind the franchise LT dammit!!

The second moral? **** you Stinchcomb, 3.3 adjusted line yards per carry to your side? You suck!

Carl Nicks should emerge, and if he does, our left side could be dominant, but we are still weak at C and RT, really weak at RT....

It's funny, only Cincinnati's line is comparable statistically to how many times the RB's get stuffed in the backfield, and even they are a bit better. *shudder*

Crickett
10-07-2008, 12:57 AM
Why does Reggie get flamed, but every other back gets the pass for poor blocking?

I think this game showed more than anything that no one can run with poor blocking, not Reggie, not Deuce, not even Adrian Peterson.


Because every other back wasn't touted as the best running back prospect *ever* or one of the best draft prospects *ever*.

Flyboy
10-07-2008, 01:00 AM
Because every other back wasn't touted as the best running back prospect *ever* or one of the best draft prospects *ever*.

And, could you explain to me how the hell that was Reggie Bush's fault?

soybean
10-07-2008, 01:08 AM
And, could you explain to me how the hell that was Reggie Bush's fault?

seriously. i hate when people blame another player because of media hype, freakin ridiculous.

niel89
10-07-2008, 01:42 AM
he is a great weapon. i love him as a 2nd rb/receiver/mismatch machine. he is getting some poor blocking but he still seems to want to bounce it and avoid contact.

on one play it was 3 or four yards for the first and he takes it left. if he would have lowered a shoulder he would have banged out a first, but instead he strings it out to the sideline and ends up a yard short.

i think they are using him very well in NO. he needs to improve still as a runner but his catching is a great asset. he is a gamechanger but he needs a little more consistency.

i think that he'll get there though. he still has a good chance to pan out as a great player.

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2008, 05:57 AM
Reggie Bush is awesome. He has more points in my PPR Fantasy League than AD. He has to be better

GermanSaint
10-07-2008, 06:29 AM
his career ypc is under 4 thats why. The Saints block well inside but Bush has this never ending need to take everything outside.

ummm no .... our run blocking is horrid the last three years.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 09:05 AM
He was supposed to come out and have the success Peterson is having. Bush was supposed to be the total package, special teams, ability to catch the ball and make things happen, AND be that stud running back as well. That's why there was debate on who should go # 1 overall. The complete package in Williams or complete package in Bush. That's why when the Texans picked Williams people laughed at their franchise AND their GM because they thought Bush would impact the NFL like Peterson has with his ability to get alot of yards, and be used as a weapon, in the special teams game and passing game.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:16 AM
Ive been one of his biggest critics. But I must soften my stance.

While I don't think he'll ever be the guy everyone thought he'd be, he still can be a very very good player with some adjustments.

First and foremost, hold onto the damn ball.

2ndly, Payton needs to use him more as a WR and send him deep more often.

3rdly, maybe ZBS would work for him. And more stretch runs.

Screen passes would help him too.

He'll never be a pure dominant RB, but he can be better utilized. But if he ever wants to reach a level where Payton can do more things with him, he needs to learn to do a better job running btw the tackles. That would open up so many more possibilities for him bc the defense can't hone in on what he's doing, and start second guessing themselves more often.

Some of that is run blocking, but some of it is also on Reggie. He's too quick to bounce it outside. Iform ZBS might do him some good, but thats not Payton's thing.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 09:17 AM
If Reggie ran behind Dallas or Philly's line, his YPC would be ungodly.

If he played behind any competent OL, his YPC would be amazing. It truly is pathetic. Adrian Peterson wouldn't be able to do anything if he's getting popped five yards in the backfield because his OL can't block anyone.

georgiafan
10-07-2008, 09:18 AM
Personally I would never draft a HB in the first round espically one at #2 no matter who the player is. Like others have said he is great at what he does and has the benefit of some other nice offense players. I don't think he has lived up the hype since people was calling him a "once in a generation" player. Felix Jones and Chris Johnson both went later round 1 and are a similar type player.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 09:21 AM
I'll grant you MJD and Addai, but there is no way Maroney or Williams are better than Bush.

MJD and Addai have also had terrific offensive lines to work with so far. This year, with a suspect OL, Jones-Drew's ypc is 4.1, almost a full yard down from his career average (5.0). Addai's ypc has also dropped thanks to injuries on the Colts' OL, from a career average of 4.3 to 3.6. Coincidence?

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 09:24 AM
He'll never be a pure dominant RB, but he can be better utilized

BBD,

Everyone and their mother thought he would be a dominant RB AND do the other things. That was the hype and selling point of him as a prospect. Amazing, amazing RB, who can do what westbrook does, AND be a sick special teams player. The total deal, 100% package, he was supposed to be. His rushing avg is piss poor for someone who is the 2nd overall pick. 3 point something YPA is pretty damn bad. Yeah, he does other amazing things, and can get the ball out of the backfield. But I certainly don't think he is worth the money for the 2nd overall pick.

Reggie Bush right now is a very poor man's Brian Westbrook.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 09:33 AM
BBD,

Everyone and their mother thought he would be a dominant RB AND do the other things. That was the hype and selling point of him as a prospect. Amazing, amazing RB, who can do what westbrook does, AND be a sick special teams player. The total deal, 100% package, he was supposed to be. His rushing avg is piss poor for someone who is the 2nd overall pick. 3 point something YPA is pretty damn bad. Yeah, he does other amazing things, and can get the ball out of the backfield. But I certainly don't think he is worth the money for the 2nd overall pick.

Reggie Bush right now is a very poor man's Brian Westbrook.

Bush doesn't have an OL. The Saints, as a team, are averaging 3.2 ypc. Reggie's 3.3 is actually a bit higher. In '07, Reggie averaged 3.7, which is the exact same average as the team. In '06, Reggie averaged 3.6, while the team averaged 3.7.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 09:37 AM
Bush doesn't have an OL. The Saints, as a team, are averaging 3.2 ypc. Reggie's 3.3 is actually a bit higher. In '07, Reggie averaged 3.7, which is the exact same average as the team. In '06, Reggie averaged 3.6, while the team averaged 3.7.

Perhaps they should addressed this before they got a franchise QB and a stud RB. What are they waiting for? We didn't have an oline either and Fassel and Accorsi played musical linemen with our offensive line. But all it takes is the mind set that you want to be stronger in the trenches and then work to upgrade it and it works. We worked hard to upgrade both sides and it worked pretty damn quick.

Outside the stats what running plays are they running? Is it the strength of the RBs? My main question would be what running concepts are being used in the Saints offense? Our running concepts are perfect for the things we are trying to do, and most importantly fit our backs!

Is this the case for the Saints and their RBs?

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:38 AM
BBD,

Everyone and their mother thought he would be a dominant RB AND do the other things. That was the hype and selling point of him as a prospect. Amazing, amazing RB, who can do what westbrook does, AND be a sick special teams player. The total deal, 100% package, he was supposed to be. His rushing avg is piss poor for someone who is the 2nd overall pick. 3 point something YPA is pretty damn bad. Yeah, he does other amazing things, and can get the ball out of the backfield. But I certainly don't think he is worth the money for the 2nd overall pick.

Reggie Bush right now is a very poor man's Brian Westbrook.

oh i know, i agree with you.

im just trying to think of ways to salvage his promising athleticism. the man is explosive, theres no denying that.

but he hasn't put it together on the field yet.

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 09:40 AM
And, could you explain to me how the hell that was Reggie Bush's fault?

Try being a Cowboys fan.

He is not even the best HB in his own draft class. Maroney, Jones-Drew, Williams and Addai pre 2008

I'd love to see Reggie Bush with the last year and the year before that Colts line and with Peyton, Wayne, Clark, Gonzalez and Harrison.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:42 AM
Perhaps they should addressed this before they got a franchise QB and a stud RB. What are they waiting for? We didn't have an oline either and Fassel and Accorsi played musical linemen with our offensive line. But all it takes is the mind set that you want to be stronger in the trenches and then work to upgrade it and it works. We worked hard to upgrade both sides and it worked pretty damn quick.

Outside the stats what running plays are they running? Is it the strength of the RBs? My main question would be what running concepts are being used in the Saints offense? Our running concepts are perfect for the things we are trying to do, and most importantly fit our backs!

Is this the case for the Saints and their RBs?

Bush doesn't fit the profile of what Payton likes doing in the run game. Payton likes pounding it between the tackles with a power runner, and attacking the defense vertically in the pass game.

Basically, he'd have to adjust a lot of his concepts and playbook to account for Bush, which he seems unwilling to do for the most part. He has made some adjustments, but Bush is the type of player that he should build his offense around, instead, he's using Bush as a compliment to his style.

Here's the thing with me, the bottom line is Bush needs to get the job done regardless. If he's as versatile as advertised, then adjust yourself to the playbook. Its not like Payton is using him poorly, its just that he's not using him as well as he could be.

But Bush still has a lot of work to do. Its easy to blame Payton for his woes, but his lack of vision and inability to run between the tackles is a large part of it.

My only suggestion to salvage him as a RB would be to try some ZBS and use his blazing speed to shoot up the gap. If that doesn't work, then just convert him to a full time WR. He can be a Steve Smith (Panthers) type of WR if developed into a true WR.

Jughead10
10-07-2008, 09:43 AM
Reggie Bush is a glorified 3rd down back who is amazing on special teams. If the Sean Payton had Sproles, Jones-Drew, or Feliz Jones and utilized them in the offense the way he does for Bush, there wouldn't be much of a drop off if there was any at all. Great player Bush is, but hasn't lived up to the hype, his #2 overall status, or his pay.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 09:47 AM
oh i know, i agree with you.

im just trying to think of ways to salvage his promising athleticism. the man is explosive, theres no denying that.

but he hasn't put it together on the field yet.

Well the way I see it, is that he is obviously explosive, if he wasn't then he wouldn't be the 2nd overall pick or even talked about being the 1st overall pick. That explosive element which is in his running game, special teams, and recieving is what made him the complete package prospect. So that part I agree with you, but still I don't think he deserved to be # 2 overall and worth all that money. Hell, I'd rather save that money and invest it on a good offensive line, and then plug and play RBs.

Flyboy
10-07-2008, 09:49 AM
oh i know, i agree with you.

im just trying to think of ways to salvage his promising athleticism. the man is explosive, theres no denying that.

but he hasn't put it together on the field yet.

6 TD's in four games and he hasn't put it together on the field yet?

Oh man, this is too much.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 09:49 AM
Bush doesn't fit the profile of what Payton likes doing in the run game. Payton likes pounding it between the tackles with a power runner, and attacking the defense vertically in the pass game.

Basically, he'd have to adjust a lot of his concepts and playbook to account for Bush, which he seems unwilling to do for the most part. He has made some adjustments, but Bush is the type of player that he should build his offense around, instead, he's using Bush as a compliment to his style.

Here's the thing with me, the bottom line is Bush needs to get the job done regardless. If he's as versatile as advertised, then adjust yourself to the playbook. Its not like Payton is using him poorly, its just that he's not using him as well as he could be.

But Bush still has a lot of work to do. Its easy to blame Payton for his woes, but his lack of vision and inability to run between the tackles is a large part of it.

My only suggestion to salvage him as a RB would be to try some ZBS and use his blazing speed to shoot up the gap. If that doesn't work, then just convert him to a full time WR. He can be a Steve Smith (Panthers) type of WR if developed into a true WR.

Between the tackles is fine, but what concepts are they running between the tackles? Are they sitting there running ISO and lead all game long? Are they running alot of tosses, power, G, zone kick or so on? The thing that we have done well this year is add a new concept, which is a blend of 2 oringinal concepts, and the two times we ran it we ran for + 30 yards and + 44 yards.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:50 AM
Well the way I see it, is that he is obviously explosive, if he wasn't then he wouldn't be the 2nd overall pick or even talked about being the 1st overall pick. That explosive element which is in his running game, special teams, and recieving is what made him the complete package prospect. So that part I agree with you, but still I don't think he deserved to be # 2 overall and worth all that money. Hell, I'd rather save that money and invest it on a good offensive line, and then plug and play RBs.

i agree with you Shock. im a big believer of RBC, so you won't get any arguments from me.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:51 AM
6 TD's in four games and he hasn't put it together on the field yet?

Oh man, this is too much.

3 of those were on special teams though. My beef with Bush is mainly as a runner. He needs to improve that aspect of his game before i rub him down with the anointing oil.

Flyboy
10-07-2008, 09:52 AM
If that doesn't work, then just convert him to a full time WR. He can be a Steve Smith (Panthers) type of WR if developed into a true WR.

I respect you to a high degree bbd and you're one of my favorite posters on the board, but people that suggest this sometimes make me question their football intelligence.

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 09:52 AM
Reggie Bush is a glorified 3rd down back who is amazing on special teams. If the Sean Payton had Sproles, Jones-Drew, or Feliz Jones and utilized them in the offense the way he does for Bush, there wouldn't be much of a drop off if there was any at all. Great player Bush is, but hasn't lived up to the hype, his #2 overall status, or his pay.

As if it's his responsibility to live up to everything the media thought he would be. If he "isn't what they thought he would be" the Saints have no one to blame but themselves, not Reggie or the hype.

Darren Sproles hasn't done a damn thing in this league other than return a few kicks back, so let's leave him out of the discussion. Or are you gonna bring up his pre-season game against Seattle? :rolleyes:

Felix Jones isn't as athletically gifted as Bush, and neither is Jones Drew. In all sincerity, i'd still take Bush over any of them, easily.

Flyboy
10-07-2008, 09:52 AM
3 of those were on special teams though.

How does that make any difference on the scoreboard, though?

Does he get LESS than 6 points for scoring on special teams?

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:53 AM
Between the tackles is fine, but what concepts are they running between the tackles? Are they sitting there running ISO and lead all game long? Are they running alot of tosses, power, G, zone kick or so on? The thing that we have done well this year is add a new concept, which is a blend of 2 oringinal concepts, and the two times we ran it we ran for + 30 yards and + 44 yards.

i can't tell you for sure, i haven't payed as much attention to it as i should have.

i don't think they use many zone concepts. i think they pull guards too, but id have to go back and watch the games again to know for sure.

Jughead10
10-07-2008, 09:56 AM
As if it's his responsibility to live up to everything the media thought he would be. If he "isn't what they thought he would be" the Saints have no one to blame but themselves, not Reggie or the hype.

Darren Sproles hasn't done a damn thing in this league other than return a few kicks back, so let's leave him out of the discussion. Or are you gonna bring up his pre-season game against Seattle? :rolleyes:

Felix Jones isn't as athletically gifted as Bush, and neither is Jones Drew. In all sincerity, i'd still take Bush over any of them, easily.

As a RB Jones-Drew has shown more. Despite all the athelticism, bottom line is Reggie Bush was drafted to be a RB. You don't draft an athlete at #2 overall and give him all that money. And as a RB, Reggie Bush hasn't exactly shined. My point was that most of Bush's success, in my opinion, has come from Sean Payton's creativity. Yes, a lot of that creativity is a success because Bush is so athletic. But if any one of those other guys were drafted at #2 and their head coach was forced to be creative to justify the pick, I could see them easily be as productive or right there.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 09:57 AM
I respect you to a high degree bbd and you're one of my favorite posters on the board, but people that suggest this sometimes make me question their football intelligence.

im just trying to draw up scenarios if plans A or B don't work. i think he's too gifted of an athlete to give up on completely if he never puts it together as a RB, so suggesting a switch to WR is just a suggestion. He has the explosion and the hands and route running ability for it, so why not? only if he continues to play poorly as a RB like i stated before.

How does that make any difference on the scoreboard, though?

Does he get LESS than 6 points for scoring on special teams?

like i said though, im not questioning his ability to do that, my main issue is with his woes as a runner. let's face it, until he starts producing as a RB, he'll never be the player he could be. all the gadget plays, they won't work forever, he needs to show more consistency in the run game for him to earn all that guaranteed money.

Now like you have stated repeatedly, a lot of it is scheme and poor blocking, but alot of it is also on Bush. He needs to improve himself as well. Gain some weight, get stronger, be more patient, etc. Its not all just the team's fault, Bush should get some of the criticism as well.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 09:58 AM
6 TD's in four games and he hasn't put it together on the field yet?

Oh man, this is too much.


TDs are all well and good but that excuse can be used if the guy wasn't a top 10 pick, specifically # 2 overall, with talks about being # 1. That's like saying people who haven't committed a crime or gotten arrested should all get a gold star for being good today. You do get rewarded for what is expected of you. Bush should be doing that AND ALOT more for this potential, hype, salary, and draft position. See, good thing he is on the Saints, and not in a big market team, specifically the Jets. If the Jets traded up and got him, and if he did what he is doing in NY, he would be getting raped by the media. 2nd overall pick should be doing alot more than what he is right now.

The 2nd overall pick should have at least more than 1 100 yard game in his career. That's pretty miserable than he hasn't alot of 100 yard games.

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 10:02 AM
As a RB Jones-Drew has shown more. Despite all the athelticism, bottom line is Reggie Bush was drafted to be a RB. You don't draft an athlete at #2 overall and give him all that money. And as a RB, Reggie Bush hasn't exactly shined. My point was that most of Bush's success, in my opinion, has come from Sean Payton's creativity. Yes, a lot of that creativity is a success because Bush is so athletic. But if any one of those other guys were drafted at #2 and their head coach was forced to be creative to justify the pick, I could see them easily be as productive or right there.

I don't care if he was drafted to be a two-tech defensive tackle. He's producing offensively how he's being used. So just because Bush wouldn't put up the numbers he's doing in Payton's offense, that diminishes his value to the team? It doesn't make any sense, does it? There's some people here think that most of Brian Westbrook's success comes from Philadelphia's offense, does that make him any less of a running back? Absolutely not.

"...and their head coach was forced to be creative to justify the pick..."

Um, isn't that the head coach's job? They bring in the groceries, you cook dinner.

Flyboy
10-07-2008, 10:08 AM
TDs are all well and good but that excuse can be used if the guy wasn't a top 10 pick, specifically # 2 overall, with talks about being # 1. That's like saying people who haven't committed a crime or gotten arrested should all get a gold star for being good today. You do get rewarded for what is expected of you. Bush should be doing that AND ALOT more for this potential, hype, salary, and draft position. See, good thing he is on the Saints, and not in a big market team, specifically the Jets. If the Jets traded up and got him, and if he did what he is doing in NY, he would be getting raped by the media. 2nd overall pick should be doing alot more than what he is right now.

The 2nd overall pick should have at least more than 1 100 yard game in his career. That's pretty miserable than he hasn't alot of 100 yard games.

Now, you're discrediting TDs? Just to nitpick? Oh, this is gold.

"Um, yeah - he scores TDs but it's not as a runningback in through the tackles therefore OMGZ HE'Z A BUST ALERT~!!!"

Please.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 10:08 AM
On a side note, my boy Vilma is beasting it again. Good to see him do his thing. Tracy Porter looks like a gamer too.

This team is much better than the 2-3 record they have. Even with the injuries.

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 10:14 AM
TDs are all well and good but that excuse can be used if the guy wasn't a top 10 pick, specifically # 2 overall, with talks about being # 1. That's like saying people who haven't committed a crime or gotten arrested should all get a gold star for being good today. You do get rewarded for what is expected of you. Bush should be doing that AND ALOT more for this potential, hype, salary, and draft position. See, good thing he is on the Saints, and not in a big market team, specifically the Jets. If the Jets traded up and got him, and if he did what he is doing in NY, he would be getting raped by the media. 2nd overall pick should be doing alot more than what he is right now.

The 2nd overall pick should have at least more than 1 100 yard game in his career. That's pretty miserable than he hasn't alot of 100 yard games.


How many 100 YFS games does he have?

Sniper
10-07-2008, 10:15 AM
MJD and Addai have also had terrific offensive lines to work with so far. This year, with a suspect OL, Jones-Drew's ypc is 4.1, almost a full yard down from his career average (5.0). Addai's ypc has also dropped thanks to injuries on the Colts' OL, from a career average of 4.3 to 3.6. Coincidence?

Bush doesn't have an OL. The Saints, as a team, are averaging 3.2 ypc. Reggie's 3.3 is actually a bit higher. In '07, Reggie averaged 3.7, which is the exact same average as the team. In '06, Reggie averaged 3.6, while the team averaged 3.7.



I'm quoting myself again, because I want more replies to this.

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 10:17 AM
How many 100 YFS games does he have?

Just by glancing at the stats it looks like it has been 13. I'll take that any day

Iamcanadian
10-07-2008, 10:18 AM
My preseason prediction was for Bush to score 19 TD's. I just could be right. Obviously wasted as a runner but as a WR he is very dangerous and I'd flank him out a lot more and let McAllister carry the load on the ground.
I don't even have to mention his punt and kick return ability. I'd use him to do both.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 10:19 AM
Now, you're discrediting TDs? Just to nitpick? Oh, this is gold.

"Um, yeah - he scores TDs but it's not as a runningback in through the tackles therefore OMGZ HE'Z A BUST ALERT~!!!"

Please.

wow you're really emotionally attached to Bush. Yeah bush has some TDs, but that's expected!!!!! HE IS THE 2nd overall pick! When you are 2nd overall and talks were you should be # 1, like there was, he should be doing what he is doing AND ALOT more! I don't understand why people can't get that through their head. The fact you're paying him 2nd overall money for that production is a rip off!

Is it too much to ask for a 1,000 yard season from the 2nd overall pick couple times?

If he can't then you're basically paying top dollar for someone who is producing avg results, which is robbery either way! Might as well saved your money and invested it at a different position.

Breaker
10-07-2008, 10:23 AM
Reggie Bush is the REAL Sam Bowie from that draft. That is all.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 10:23 AM
How many 100 YFS games does he have?

What's YFS?

Sniper
10-07-2008, 10:24 AM
wow you're really emotionally attached to Bush. Yeah bush has some TDs, but that's expected!!!!! HE IS THE 2nd overall pick! When you are 2nd overall and talks were you should be # 1, like there was, he should be doing what he is doing AND ALOT more! I don't understand why people can't get that through their head. The fact you're paying him 2nd overall money for that production is a rip off!

Is it too much to ask for a 1,000 yard season from the 2nd overall pick couple times?

If he can't then you're basically paying top dollar for someone who is producing avg results, which is robbery either way! Might as well saved your money and invested it at a different position.

Holy ****, let's try this again. The Saints' offensive line is ******* terrible! Ok? Got it? They're not good at all. How the **** is Bush supposed to do anything if there's a bunch of players in the backfield by the time he gets the ball? Is he supposed to juke five guys just to get back to the LOS?

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2008, 10:25 AM
yards from scrimmage

Breaker
10-07-2008, 10:25 AM
Now, you're discrediting TDs? Just to nitpick? Oh, this is gold.

"Um, yeah - he scores TDs but it's not as a runningback in through the tackles therefore OMGZ HE'Z A BUST ALERT~!!!"

Please.

Wait, so are you saying he's worth that 2nd overall pick and $54 million? It's either he was worth his draft status or he's a bust. Do you really think he was worth being the 2nd overall pick? If not then he is a bust.

BuddyCHRIST
10-07-2008, 10:26 AM
It's really a toss up for me, Obviously AD is a better RB but Bush can do alot of things and fits the Saints pretty well. With all these receiving options out, I would keep Bush, but if all the WR's were healthy and Deuce was out/injured I would probably take AD. I think Bush will become a better inside runner, I've seen flashes of him being a little more conservative with breaking his runs to the outside and taking what the defense gives him, its just not there consistently.

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2008, 10:29 AM
Wait, so are you saying he's worth that 2nd overall pick and $54 million? It's either he was worth his draft status or he's a bust. Do you really think he was worth being the 2nd overall pick? If not then he is a bust.
okay lets see, who else should they have picked?

Breaker
10-07-2008, 10:31 AM
okay lets see, who else should they have picked?

The guy they wanted before Bush became available. AJ Hawk. Just because the media proclaimed this guy as the next Gale Slayer doesn't mean you're force on picking "the next big thing". Unless they honestly believe the hype themselves.

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2008, 10:32 AM
The guy they wanted before Bush became available. AJ Hawk. Just because the media proclaimed this guy as the next Gale Slayer doesn't mean you're force on picking "the next big thing". Unless they honestly believe the hype themselves.
and who wouldve scored those 42 points this season?

Sniper
10-07-2008, 10:34 AM
The guy they wanted before Bush became available. AJ Hawk. Just because the media proclaimed this guy as the next Gale Slayer doesn't mean you're force on picking "the next big thing". Unless they honestly believe the hype themselves.

Or you know, perhaps getting an OL? Please explain the lack of production from all Saints RBs since Bush got there.

Breaker
10-07-2008, 10:38 AM
and who wouldve scored those 42 points this season?

Well do you think he's 2nd overall worthy? Over everyone from that 06 draft?

Honestly, I wouldn't had touch him until the mid-second. Devin Hester set the bar for those kind of players, and since he's the best one in the league he's at the highest. I forgot where he went, but I think it was the high 2nd, so Bush should be below that. Therefore since he was taken 2nd overall, he's considered a super bust to me. Decent player though.

If you ask Sean Payton and the Saints if they would draft him all over again, do you really believe they would? Come FA they'll offer him a way lower contract, or they'll just let him walk.

Flyboy
10-07-2008, 10:40 AM
Oh Lordy. I'm done with this thread.

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2008, 10:41 AM
Well do you think he's 2nd overall worthy? Over everyone from that 06 draft?

Honestly, I wouldn't had touch him until the mid-second. Devin Hester set the bar for those kind of players, and since he's the best one in the league he's at the highest. I forgot where he went, but I think it was the high 2nd, so Bush should be below that. Therefore since he was taken 2nd overall, he's considered a super bust to me. Decent player though.

If you ask Sean Payton and the Saints if they would draft him all over again, do you really believe they would? Come FA they'll offer him a way lower contract, or they'll just let him walk.
for what the saints needed? at that point? yes prolly. Its not only the play time he had but the effect he had on the community after that horrible nature catastophe

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 10:42 AM
Holy ****, let's try this again. The Saints' offensive line is ******* terrible! Ok? Got it? They're not good at all. How the **** is Bush supposed to do anything if there's a bunch of players in the backfield by the time he gets the ball? Is he supposed to juke five guys just to get back to the LOS?

So they invested in Brees and invested in the 2nd overall pick in Bush where both player need an offensive line, and the line sucks... Wow that's pretty piss poor ******* management!!! And there are ways to run and compensate for the offensive line sucking dick!

Again what ******* concepts are they running? Can you answer that? What defenses and fronts are they presenting to the Saints offense? It's not that cut and dry that if an offensive line sucks, they are going to suck at every aspect AND every concept they run. They may do certain things well, and therefore my question of wanting to know what exact concepts they run is important. Could it be bad running scheme? Could be! That's why I asking! DO you understand that?

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-07-2008, 10:42 AM
I think Reggie Bush helps his team a lot. If the Saints had a chance to take Adrian Peterson that would be one thing, but they didn't, so I don't know what point you are trying to a make. With the players that were available, I think they made the best pick that they could have.

Weren't you ragging on Westbrook because the offense needs to change their style to adapt to him?

Breaker
10-07-2008, 10:43 AM
Or you know, perhaps getting an OL? Please explain the lack of production from all Saints RBs since Bush got there.

Deuce had a pretty big year in 06, IIRC. Bush had 3.6 avg that year and had the same avg every year since. BTW, if their O-line gotten worse after 3 years, then they must not be drafting right. But we already knew that.





Oh yes, that was a shot at Bush btw.

santeria531
10-07-2008, 10:44 AM
About the only knocks I'd give Reggie right now is ball security & his physicality, but he was never known as a guy who ran with authority in college so that's pretty much a worthless argument. Watching the game last night, I'd say at least half of his carries had no chance of going anywhere. He'd break one or two tackles just to get a loss of 1 yard or back to the LOS. Granted Minnesota has P Williams, K Williams & Allen, but still the Saints' line NEVER generated a push on the DL. I've never seen a lineman as bad as Stinchcomb, and Goodwin's best attribute is snapping the ball at the wrong time. I don't see how it's even remotely fair to compare AD to Bush, but people always will so whatever. I would personally take Bush over any RB, except Mojo, because he CAN excel at the RB position... give them a Center & RT and there is no question in my mind that Bush can average at least 4.5 ypc throughout a whole season, while still putting up great numbers in the passing & return game. No, Bush will never be a RB who gets 20+ carries, but does he really need to?

Just an FYI, because i know somebody will say it, I LOVE the way Adrian Peterson plays the RB position. Truly a special talent who will be one of the best, but to compare Bush with RB's like Peterson is like comparing apples to oranges. I believe the Saints got a great player at #2 with Bush

Breaker
10-07-2008, 10:48 AM
for what the saints needed? at that point? yes prolly. Its not only the play time he had but the effect he had on the community after that horrible nature catastophe

I really don't like using that excuse. IMO, they would've raise the morale of the community either way by winning, which they still would've done that year regardless of Bush.

Gay Ork Wang
10-07-2008, 10:51 AM
I really don't like using that excuse. IMO, they would've raise the morale of the community either way by winning, which they still would've done that year regardless of Bush.
how do you know? seriously they go out there and pick AJ Hawk 2nd. Who is going to score all those points? who is going to be that dump off receiver? cause those Saints WRs sucked ass.

bernbabybern820
10-07-2008, 10:51 AM
About the only knocks I'd give Reggie right now is ball security & his physicality, but he was never known as a guy who ran with authority in college so that's pretty much a worthless argument. Watching the game last night, I'd say at least half of his carries had no chance of going anywhere. He'd break one or two tackles just to get a loss of 1 yard or back to the LOS. Granted Minnesota has P Williams, K Williams & Allen, but still the Saints' line NEVER generated a push on the DL. I've never seen a lineman as bad as Stinchcomb, and Goodwin's best attribute is snapping the ball at the wrong time. I don't see how it's even remotely fair to compare AD to Bush, but people always will so whatever. I would personally take Bush over any RB, except Mojo, because he CAN excel at the RB position... give them a Center & RT and there is no question in my mind that Bush can average at least 4.5 ypc throughout a whole season, while still putting up great numbers in the passing & return game. No, Bush will never be a RB who gets 20+ carries, but does he really need to?

Just an FYI, because i know somebody will say it, I LOVE the way Adrian Peterson plays the RB position. Truly a special talent who will be one of the best, but to compare Bush with RB's like Peterson is like comparing apples to oranges. I believe the Saints got a great player at #2 with Bush

And to add to that i've all but one Saints game and Jammal Brown hardly gets any push in the running game either and he is supposed to be one of their best linemen.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 10:55 AM
I will just agree to disagree. I do agree with BBD and Jug on this. But no sense in getting worked up over a team and a player I am not a loyal fan of. Hey, if you people like him, then god bless you.

619
10-07-2008, 11:04 AM
Holy ****, let's try this again. The Saints' offensive line is ******* terrible! Ok? Got it? They're not good at all. How the **** is Bush supposed to do anything if there's a bunch of players in the backfield by the time he gets the ball? Is he supposed to juke five guys just to get back to the LOS?

Sadly most ppl are still failing to recognize this fact. If only he was Barry Sanders-esque would it work under those brutal circumstances.

At the same time I understand it is quite difficult to block for a runner as jumpy and all over the place as Reggie however to this point in his career I just haven't seen the holes opening up on a consistent basis like it should.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 11:44 AM
Shocking, you are surprised at the Saints not addressing a glaring need?

It's like how we lead the NFL with the most explosive offense in the league, yet we draft Robert Meachem....

I still wish someone would answer Sniper26's post, as to why those other RBs are seeing huge drop offs once their respective offensive lines haven't produced.

I think it's funny too how much higher our yards per carry is behind Jamal Brown, as opposed to behind the rest of the line.

Again, it's also hilarious that our RB's get hit in the backfield more than any other team in the league, including the laughably poor Bengals.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 11:51 AM
Deuce had a pretty big year in 06, IIRC. Bush had 3.6 avg that year and had the same avg every year since. BTW, if their O-line gotten worse after 3 years, then they must not be drafting right. But we already knew that.





Oh yes, that was a shot at Bush btw.

If 4.3 is a big year, than yeah, he had a big year. Bush was a rookie then, and the OL has clearly gotten worse since then.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 11:56 AM
Ive seen the games. The run blocking isn't as bad as youre making it out to be. Now poor run blocking + poor vision = bad combination, and thats the case with Bush.

And the truth is, you simply don't have any good backs to change the standard deviation that Bush has. In 06 when McCallister was somewhat healthy, he ran significantly better than Bush did behind essentially the same line.

Run blocking is also about repetition. And thats Payton's fault. You don't practice run blocking, you don't run block enough, no matter how much talent you have you won't be a good run blocking team.

But like I said, while the blocking isn't stellar, its not piss poor either. A more patient runner will wait for those lanes to develop instead of running full speed into one of the linemen's backs or panic and bounce it outside at the first sign of trouble.

You want to talk about oline woes?

DMac, Stephen Jackson, Joseph Addai, and MJD all face similar if not worse situations.

Dmac: 5.3
SJ: 3.6
JA: 3.6
MJD: 4.1
Bush: 3.3

Worse YPC than all of them, and the others don't have the luxury of a stellar pass game to relieve pressure off the box that Bush has (other than Addai). So even if you want to make the excuse that a poor line causes his poor YPC, he's still a lower YPC than all the aforementioned RBs, even with more help and less stacked fronts against him.

So there, you wanted a rebuttal, and you got one.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:04 PM
I know the reason they aren't addressing the O-line... because Drew Brees is a ******* god, and rarely gets sacked. If Brees were spending the entire game on his back, we would be drafting high.

Reggie Bush was two TOTALLY different backs in his rookie season. the run blocking was fine that year, Bush WAS the problem when he came in, but he figured it out in the last 8 games. Deuce averaged 4.2 on the year, and Reggie averaged 3.6, but during the second half of the season, Deuce was still right at 4 yards per carry, and over the last 8, Reggie averaged over 4.8 yards per carry, and we pulled him in a few games, saving him for the playoffs.

Also, his two playoff games, where the line was still performing well, Bush averaged 4.4 yards per carry against two great defenses in Philly and Chicago.

So again, when Reggie put it all together, and the line has given protection, he's shown he can get up close to 5 yards per carry for long stretches, it wasn't just a 1-2 game sample, that was 10 games where all things were clicking, and he was showing why he was so highly touted.

Edit: All that still doesn't explain why our backs get hit in the backfield more than any other team.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 12:04 PM
And the truth is, you simply don't have any good backs to change the standard deviation that Bush has. In 06 when McCallister was somewhat healthy, he ran significantly better than Bush did behind essentially the same Run blocking is also about repetition.

Yet both Thomas and McAllister have similar ypc numbers.

But like I said, while the blocking isn't stellar, its not piss poor either.

It's worse than piss poor.

DMac, Stephen Jackson, Joseph Addai, and MJD all face similar if not worse situations.

Dmac: 5.3
SJ: 3.6
JA: 3.6
MJD: 4.1
Bush: 3.3

Oakland's run game finished sixth in the league last year, so that doesn't really work for you. Jackson is a straight up tank, I don't claim that Bush is better than him. Addai? There's never any extra men in the box, because of Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Gonzalez. Jacksonville's OL is still better than New Orleans'.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 12:06 PM
Shocking, you are surprised at the Saints not addressing a glaring need?

It's like how we lead the NFL with the most explosive offense in the league, yet we draft Robert Meachem....

I still wish someone would answer Sniper26's post, as to why those other RBs are seeing huge drop offs once their respective offensive lines haven't produced.

I think it's funny too how much higher our yards per carry is behind Jamal Brown, as opposed to behind the rest of the line.

Again, it's also hilarious that our RB's get hit in the backfield more than any other team in the league, including the laughably poor Bengals.


Well if he is saying it's the oline then we not consistently address it especially if you have a franchise QB and a 2nd overall pick in which you invested in. So I was merely asking that in response to his statement saying their offensive line sucks.

Depends on the offensive line. Many things can go wrong with the offensive line. First off, how are the plays designed? What concepts are their for the running game? You do alot of stuff to help the offensive line in the passing game and take pressure off of them, but running the ball is a thing you would need to be extra creative to still succeed. So again what are the Saints running? And don't give me between the tackle or off tackle, because that's telling me nothing.

Is the OL sticking with their blocks or letting guys off and are they making those plays? Ie blocking a guy, for couple seconds, letting him off the hook, and him getting back into the play to make a tackle.

Are the plays designed too complicated? Meaning from an Xs and Os standpoint is it a stretch for a particular position to block another defender in the drawn up play. Another example, and this has to do with the Giants is, when we ask Snee or Rich S. our guards to block down on the backside OLB, in the play. So you're assuming that Snee can haul his 300 lb frame and "catch" and seal off an opposing OLB to avoid him from pursuing. I watch that play and shake my head, thinking no way in hell does that happen on a consistent basis like it's drawn up.

Another question I would have is where is the breakdown coming from? Right side? Left side? And then what position? Can you guys hide that issue by drawing the plays up differently to compensate? Boss sucked at run blocking for us so we did some things to help him out, and now he is fine, and getting better. But in the playoffs last year Boss was miserable!!! Our Running game for our scheme and concepts, sucked because of Boss. Some people may say, the offensive line, but upon analysis Boss couldn't seal the DE, and DE was blowing up the play and messing things up.

So again, it's easy to say the OL stinks, and people may be right, but to me there is always a specific reason to why things are happening the way they are. So that's what I am curious about. The simple solution would be breaking down the Saints games and see for myself, but it takes a week to do it and I hate doing it for my Giants, but the positive is I know exactly what the Giants run, and out of what formation. You learn alot by taping and breaking it down.

That's why I am asking these questions.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 12:10 PM
Yet both Thomas and McAllister have similar ypc numbers.



It's worse than piss poor.



Oakland's run game finished sixth in the league last year, so that doesn't really work for you. Jackson is a straight up tank, I don't claim that Bush is better than him. Addai? There's never any extra men in the box, because of Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Gonzalez. Jacksonville's OL is still better than New Orleans'.

Thomas is nothing special, and McCallister hasn't been Deuce for quite some time.

No its not. The line isn't the best run blocking unit, but ive seen worse. Green Bay's run blocking is about on par with NO.

Ill give you Oakland. Addai and Bush are in the same boat, almost exact same boat, and Addai averages a higher YPC. Jacksonville's oline is about on par with NO, and on top of that they see a lot more 8 man fronts because of a lack of playmakers on the outside, and MJD is still doing significantly better.

Look, my main point is that Bush simply needs to improve as a runner. The blocking is part of it, but like i said repeatedly, its not all the oline. Bush has a lot to do with it too.

Every RB will look great with huge holes. Thats not the point. An elite RB can find tight seams and run through them. Bush does not do that.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:12 PM
Well, we aren't too creative at all, unless you count reverse plays as creative, we like to run Bush with no FB, too many draw plays, where by the time he gets the ball, the line has broken down. Our guys don't block too well in space, except Jahri Evans, so it's rough trying to get him outside of the tackles, and we just lack the power to blow teams off the line and create gaps, so most plays are pretty simple, each linemen takes their assignment, but we can only get push from 1 linemen at most on a play, so when our running backs burst to the line, they run into the backs of their own linemen getting pushed back, and they can either plow into the backs of our guys, or try and bounce it outside.

Also, penetration from the right side, and between the C and LG has been a problem, completely disrupting a lot of plays. Carl Nicks did a pretty good job last night though, and I thought the only real issues were at C and at RT, but sometimes it seems so bad at RT, that no matter what we do, we have to elude or break the tackle from Stinchcomb's assignment, because he can't stop anyone.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 12:14 PM
Ill give you Oakland. Addai and Bush are in the same boat, almost exact same boat, and Addai averages a higher YPC.

I must have missed when Bush was playing with Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark etc...


Jacksonville's oline is about on par with NO


Except when it's not.

You underestimate the crappiness of the Saints' OL.

bigbluedefense
10-07-2008, 12:18 PM
I must have missed when Bush was playing with Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark etc...




Except when it's not.

You underestimate the crappiness of the Saints' OL.

Brees is at this moment, a superior qb to Peyton, and the passing attack of NO is just as good if not better than the Colts.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I always tell myself im not going to get involved in these Bush arguments and wind up doing so every time.

I will gladly admit that im wrong if Reggie ever proves it though. I have no problem admitting when im wrong about a player.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:19 PM
The Jacksonville O-line definitely has strength and the ability to generate a push that the Saints don't have.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 12:19 PM
Well, we aren't too creative at all, unless you count reverse plays as creative, we like to run Bush with no FB, too many draw plays, where by the time he gets the ball, the line has broken down. Our guys don't block too well in space, except Jahri Evans, so it's rough trying to get him outside of the tackles, and we just lack the power to blow teams off the line and create gaps, so most plays are pretty simple, each linemen takes their assignment, but we can only get push from 1 linemen at most on a play, so when our running backs burst to the line, they run into the backs of their own linemen getting pushed back, and they can either plow into the backs of our guys, or try and bounce it outside.

Also, penetration from the right side, and between the C and LG has been a problem, completely disrupting a lot of plays. Carl Nicks did a pretty good job last night though, and I thought the only real issues were at C and at RT, but sometimes it seems so bad at RT, that no matter what we do, we have to elude or break the tackle from Stinchcomb's assignment, because he can't stop anyone.


Reverses can be creative but it depends on what formation. Usually plays like that and end arounds are ran off you're bread and butter running play. Another example, the giants have added a new play to their running scheme. It's actually a blend of two concepts "G" and "power" and Gilbride created something called " Power G" which we run with a strength to either side of the formation. The two big gains with Jacobs were against the Rams and the Seahawks, and BOTH were out of I PRO LEFT formations. So now how can we be creative? We ran an end around.. But wait.. that's not the creative part, the creative element comes from giving the defense a similar look. We ran an end around out of a WEAK I LEFT, SLOT RIGHT formation. Hixon was the slot guy, and Jacobs was in the backfield. We ran "power G" again, but had Hixon come to fake the hand off, and we handed it off to Hixon instead of Jacobs who faked like it was Power G.

That's the creative part. Why? Because no teams see this on film and realize we can either, use playaction, run power G, end around, or run a backside LEAD on the Weakside LB. So out of one concept a boat load of plays come into option. That's where the creativity comes into the place. It's not so much WHAT you run, but HOW it's designed, via what formation you run the play out of.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:30 PM
We had a lot of success with a similar play in 06, except it was Bush lined up as a wideout, and Deuce in the backfield, and teams had to figure out if we were going to reverse it to Reggie, or let Deuce power it up the gut with the entire D cheating to Reggie.

In fact, I think Reggie had his first TD from scrimmage on that play.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 12:42 PM
We had a lot of success with a similar play in 06, except it was Bush lined up as a wideout, and Deuce in the backfield, and teams had to figure out if we were going to reverse it to Reggie, or let Deuce power it up the gut with the entire D cheating to Reggie.

In fact, I think Reggie had his first TD from scrimmage on that play.

I remember those plays. I like those plays alot in any offensive setting. But again you have to set the defense up. We run end around AFTER we had a + 44 yard gain. So now the defense is waiting for that and instead we show them something else with the same player doing the same thing except for the guy that gets the ball. That's really the beauty of football which I admire alot.

Anyone can say an OL sucks or OL is good and throw around stats to show, which is non sense. But why? What's going on? What are you guys trying to do, and why is it failing? It's very easy to blame the OL or to be a fair a RB, which I admit is a possible plausible explaination, but what's the offense trying to do in their running game? Is the running concepts used in the system a good fit for the player AND team?

Like I said I would never break down another team's game, because it takes forever, but these are the factors and variables I'd ask and try to get answered. I do that for the giants, because they are my favorite team, and if another coach asked me, I want to be able to answer that. I am friends with a defensive coach who breaks down our Giants defense, and so we exhange info to what the team is doing.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 12:48 PM
Well, they could scheme a little better for Reggie in particular, I find that he does better behind a fullback, letting Mike Karney take care of the first defender.

I really don't think scheme will help though, Nesbit, Goodwin, and especially stinchcomb just can't open holes, create any push, or hold blocks at all.

Nesbit will likely not be back in his spot though, I think Carl Nicks locked it up.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 12:59 PM
Well, they could scheme a little better for Reggie in particular, I find that he does better behind a fullback, letting Mike Karney take care of the first defender.

I really don't think scheme will help though, Nesbit, Goodwin, and especially stinchcomb just can't open holes, create any push, or hold blocks at all.

Nesbit will likely not be back in his spot though, I think Carl Nicks locked it up.

Thanks for joining the club by the way!

Could the Saints look at OT/OG in the first round this year?

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 01:00 PM
Well, they could scheme a little better for Reggie in particular, I find that he does better behind a fullback, letting Mike Karney take care of the first defender.

I really don't think scheme will help though, Nesbit, Goodwin, and especially stinchcomb just can't open holes, create any push, or hold blocks at all.

Nesbit will likely not be back in his spot though, I think Carl Nicks locked it up.

What you described is some sort of ISO or LEAD concept.. I love that play. You can run it at all levels from pop warner, to the NFL and every level in between. Usually the easiest form of running concept to block for. You have to have a sick fullback to run it. We run ISO and LEAD as well with Madison Hedgecock as our FB an then Jacobs pounding through.

As far as the guys not creating any push, that's iffy too. That depends on what you're running again. You can easily scheme that by combo blocking. Again what is you're bread and butter running play? Do you guys rely on zone blocking at times, combo and chipping off, or drive blocks?

Remember assuming a 4-3 defense you're up against you have 4 DL vs 5 OL, and if you add a TE to the formation it's 4 DL vs 6 OL, meaning you can afford to combo on the two DTs and lead with the FB. Does the FB play a big role in your running game like it does ours? Again what front is the worse one for your defense?

Sniper
10-07-2008, 01:08 PM
I also believe that Bush's numbers will increase when Shockey is fully healthy. The man's ability to seal the edge is rivaled by few.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 01:13 PM
I also believe that Bush's numbers will increase when Shockey is fully healthy. The man's ability to seal the edge is rivaled by few.

I agree! And just because I disagree with you don't think it means I don't respect you as a poster. So just wanted to clarify that. I know some people take it as a personal front and then hold a grudge.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 01:13 PM
Thanks for joining the club by the way!

Could the Saints look at OT/OG in the first round this year?

Duke Robinson or Andre Smith FTW!!!

I want someone that can go Shawn Andrews on the defense.

Shocking, we don't use the FB with Bush nearly enough, we try to rely too much on counters and draw plays, instead of handing him the ball, and just letting him run. I think Mike Karney is the best blocking fullback in the game, he sprung Reggie for a long run yesterday, but it was called back (unjustly IMO).

Sniper
10-07-2008, 01:15 PM
I agree! And just because I disagree with you don't think it means I don't respect you as a poster. So just wanted to clarify that. I know some people take it as a personal front and then hold a grudge.

No sweat. You and BBD are respected posters. Disagreeing is entirely legal.

Duke Robinson or Andre Smith FTW!!!

Mmmmmmm Andre Smith....He is Shawn Andrews 2.0

I want someone that can go Shawn Andrews on the defense.

Shawn Andrews needs to get his ass back on the field. He's so, so good.

Shocking, we don't use the FB with Bush nearly enough, we try to rely too much on counters and draw plays, instead of handing him the ball, and just letting him run. I think Mike Karney is the best blocking fullback in the game, he sprung Reggie for a long run yesterday, but it was called back (unjustly IMO).

At least you have a real fullback. Watching Tony Hunt play fullback really makes me long for the days of Jon "Seek and Destroy" Ritchie.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 01:18 PM
Well Portland had Greg Oden last year also, didn't help them much though :D

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 01:19 PM
Duke Robinson or Andre Smith FTW!!!

I want someone that can go Shawn Andrews on the defense.

Shocking, we don't use the FB with Bush nearly enough, we try to rely too much on counters and draw plays, instead of handing him the ball, and just letting him run. I think Mike Karney is the best blocking fullback in the game, he sprung Reggie for a long run yesterday, but it was called back (unjustly IMO).

Well that could be part of the problem. We ALWAYS use a FB with Jacobs, and when we don't we use a ACE-DOUBLE TIGHT set, so we have 7 guys on the LOS, with Boss and Mathews both sides, and then run without a FB. But we combo block where we feel they have the edge, to negate it and send Jacobs flying through the GAP so he does have to make a move on a LB or either run him over. But usually when we are in those formations we continue to the run the same concepts.

Our offense is VERY boring! But it works! We run the same stuff out of different formations, and use playaction from it. That's our offense in a nutshell. KISS- Keep it Simple Stupid! I like how we do that, but something feel like we do alot more with our personnel than Gilbride choses to do. Another thing I never liked was the amount out of choice AND option routes in our system.

But back to the Saints, alot of success depends on how your blocking the various fronts, and the role of each linemen in that scheme. You may say they are not getting push, but my answer would be how and why? Are you drive blocking across the board or if that's the case why not combo and peel off to the next level? Give Bush a chance to use his vision and speed and get 4 yards a pop.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 02:32 PM
Just throwing this out there, I took the leaders for RB total yards, and determined the yards per touch for the guys ahead of Bush.

Frank Gore: 107 touches, 603 total yards, 5.6 yards per touch.

Clinton Portis: 123 touches, 563 total yards, 4.57 yards per touch

Matt Forte: 129 touches, 555 total yards, 4.3 yards per touch

Michael Turner: 106 touches, 554 total yards, 5.2 yards per touch

Reggie Bush: 102 touches, 533 total yards, 5.2 yards per touch

That's not even counting the special teams contributions, where he has been huge.

Side note: during the regular season, Reggie has been thrown to 10 yards past the line of scrimmage 2 times in his career. He catches all of his balls in the backfield, and then makes a play, it's basically a glorified running play.

He's leading the league in yards after the catch by a fair margin.

He's on pace for about 1700 total yards, again not counting special teams contributions, and I would bet on him gaining steam later in the season.

It's not conventional, but he's getting the job done. I think people are forgetting what Marshall Faulk looked like before he left Indy and had an offense properly designed around him.

soybean
10-07-2008, 03:06 PM
Look, my main point is that Bush simply needs to improve as a runner. The blocking is part of it, but like i said repeatedly, its not all the oline. Bush has a lot to do with it too.

Every RB will look great with huge holes. Thats not the point. An elite RB can find tight seams and run through them. Bush does not do that.

finding seams and fighting off defenders that are already in the backfield when you get the hand off are two completely different things.

soybean
10-07-2008, 03:11 PM
Wait, so are you saying he's worth that 2nd overall pick and $54 million? It's either he was worth his draft status or he's a bust. Do you really think he was worth being the 2nd overall pick? If not then he is a bust.

how could you say he's not? so every top 10 pick is expected to be godly? i guess benson, cadillac, troy williamson etc. didn't get the memo.

yourfavestoner
10-07-2008, 03:46 PM
Yet both Thomas and McAllister have similar ypc numbers.



It's worse than piss poor.



Oakland's run game finished sixth in the league last year, so that doesn't really work for you. Jackson is a straight up tank, I don't claim that Bush is better than him. Addai? There's never any extra men in the box, because of Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Gonzalez. Jacksonville's OL is still better than New Orleans'.

I beg to differ. The injuries Jacksonville has suffered to its offensive line has made them feeble, at best. We're playing backups and street guys at all three interior line positions.

I'll give my thoughts on Reggie once in this thread and that's it. I've been one of his harshest critics, going all the way back before the draft. But he's finally developing into a nice football player. Is he (and will he ever be) a good runner? No. But at least he's finally producing yards and points.

Coming out of HS as a wingback, he would have made a very natural receiver.

comahan
10-07-2008, 05:05 PM
I havent bothered to read thru this thread, but anywho. Hes a good WR out of the backfield and a good ST guy. And he's tremendous when you have another back on your team that can pick up yards on the first 2 downs.

As the only legit running option on his team? Terrible.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 05:16 PM
He still hasn't justified being taken #2 overall. An explosive slot receiver/returner that is good in space.

BlindSite
10-07-2008, 05:19 PM
He still hasn't justified being taken #2 overall. An explosive slot receiver/returner that is good in space.

He almost won the game for the saints last night, grammatica kicked it away.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 05:20 PM
Yea, but yards and TD's don't count for HB's unless they are taken from a handoff.

Didn't you get the memo?

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 05:24 PM
Yea, but yards and TD's don't count for HB's unless they are taken from a handoff.

Didn't you get the memo?

A slot receiver/returner doesn't justify a #2 pick. Hell, who knows how good he would be in that role if he wasn't in an amazing offensive system.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 05:24 PM
LOL, our system is not amazing, Drew Brees is.

Turtlepower
10-07-2008, 05:25 PM
A slot receiver/returner doesn't justify a #2 pick. Hell, who knows how good he would be in that role if he wasn't in an amazing offensive system.

If you had the #2 pick in the 2005 NFL draft, would you draft Devin Hester? Because I might be justified to.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 05:25 PM
LOL, our system is not amazing, Drew Brees is.

We basically agree then. Good to hear!
If you had the #2 pick in the 2005 NFL draft, would you draft Devin Hester? Because I might be justified to.

no. What has he done this year? He is showing that amazing KRs don't last long in this league, for whatever reason.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 05:28 PM
Our system is basically Drew Brees throwing to Bush in the flats, and letting him create, or throwing downfield to some scrub receiver that he hits in the numbers :)

soybean
10-07-2008, 05:34 PM
A slot receiver/returner doesn't justify a #2 pick. Hell, who knows how good he would be in that role if he wasn't in an amazing offensive system.

yeah but to call him just a slot receiver/returner is an understatement to his abilities.

He's a weapon/game changer and a damn good one at that.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 05:38 PM
yeah but to call him just a slot receiver/returner is an understatement to his abilities.

He's a weapon/game changer and a damn good one at that.

Actually, it is not. He doesn't have the "abilities" or toughness or whatever you need to be a primary #1 RB....he can be a third down back but calling him that would be more insulting than calling him a slot receiver/returner, which is more fitting anyways.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 05:52 PM
Yea, neither did Marshall Faulk or Brian Westbrook.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 05:55 PM
Yea, neither did Marshall Faulk or Brian Westbrook.

Marshall Faulk is arguably the greatest offensive weapon in history, actually, it isn't even arguable. HE IS the greatest weapon ever.

Westbrook is a #1 RB, Reggie isn't.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 05:59 PM
MArshall Faulk's YPC in his first 3 seasons= 3.67

Wow that looks oddly familiar, it can't be line issues, he's just lacking what it takes to be a running back, we better release him and draft a real running back. The Rams can take a shot on this Faulk guy, but he's just a crappy runner.

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 06:01 PM
BB you're seriously under-rated how simply atrocious NO's oline has been the past season and a third. Reggie's improved as a runner immensely but he gets hit behind the line so often that it doesn't show. Give that team a legit Center and RT and Bush will look like a number 1 RB.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 06:02 PM
MArshall Faulk's YPC in his first 3 seasons= 3.67

Wow that looks oddly familiar, it can't be line issues, he's just lacking what it takes to be a running back, we better release him and draft a real running back. The Rams can take a shot on this Faulk guy, but he's just a crappy runner.

You're comparing Bush to Faulk, just stop. There are probably more legit reasons why Faulk struggled than why Reggie is struggling. I know it sucks taking a third down back #2 overall. (we drafted Carnell Williams which is worse, :( )

BB you're seriously under-rated how simply atrocious NO's oline has been the past season and a third. Reggie's improved as a runner immensely but he gets hit behind the line so often that it doesn't show. Give that team a legit Center and RT and Bush will look like a number 1 RB.

Give David Carr an offensive line and he becomes an elite QB. :rolleyes:

BrownsTown
10-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Reggie Bush = mediocre player with sporadic big play potential. Like a lot of other players in the NFL.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Of course Marshall had legit reasons, because you like him, and Reggie, not so much.

The fact that you can place all the blame on one guy, and shift it away from another in similar situations is laughable.

If he were on the Saints, and doing what he did in his 3rd season (3.0 yards per carry) you'd be flaming away.

D-Unit
10-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Reggie Bush does more to help his team win than Mario Williams does to help his team win, but Mario Williams is a top player at his position.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 06:07 PM
Reggie Bush = mediocre player with sporadic big play potential. Like a lot of other players in the NFL.

/thread

at least he's banging Kim Kardashian.

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 06:11 PM
You're comparing Bush to Faulk, just stop. There are probably more legit reasons why Faulk struggled than why Reggie is struggling. I know it sucks taking a third down back #2 overall. (we drafted Carnell Williams which is worse, :( )



Give David Carr an offensive line and he becomes an elite QB. :rolleyes:

Except Bush hasn't given up and become a ***** *****, at least not yet anyway, Carr's a lost cause at this point because he plays scared from getting wailed on. I don't really care if people think Bush's going to be a bust, but if the Saints can get their hands on a real center this offseason Bush'll have a big year next year.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 06:13 PM
Except Bush hasn't given up and become a ***** *****, at least not yet anyway, Carr's a lost cause at this point because he plays scared from getting wailed on. I don't really care if people think Bush's going to be a bust, but if the Saints can get their hands on a real center this offseason Bush'll have a big year next year.

Faine was anything but bad.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 06:15 PM
Faine was ******* god awful last year, that's why he got cut.

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 06:18 PM
Faine was anything but bad.

Wasn't he injured last year? If not then I wonder why that oline was so pathetically bad with him at center and why TB would make him the highest paid center after a season where his oline was just embarassing on the interior.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 06:20 PM
He got injured at the end of the year, and our offensive line got better with him out, Goodwin was playing really well to finish last season, but he's gone back to being what he is, a good backup C.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 06:21 PM
why TB would make him the highest paid center

According to the hardcore fans, he's an adequate pass blocker and tenacious run blocker who reaches the second level.

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 06:23 PM
He got injured at the end of the year, and our offensive line got better with him out, Goodwin was playing really well to finish last season, but he's gone back to being what he is, a good backup C.

According to the hardcore fans, he's an adequate pass blocker and tenacious run blocker who reaches the second level.

Well since he was healthy much of the season(thx fo da info S-T) I wonder were they got that, because that line was just aweful last season and Faine was a big part of that horrible line play.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 06:23 PM
for us in 06, he was great, terrific pass blocking, adequate run blocking.

In 07 he got pushed around so much it was laughable, and it destroyed our running and passing game, where Brees was forced to throw immediately, which was why his yards per attempt dipped so much last season.

I've never seen his tenacious run blocking, it's a far cry from what LeCharles Bentley was when he was here.

ChezPower4
10-07-2008, 06:24 PM
Reggie Bush = mediocre player with sporadic big play potential. Like a lot of other players in the NFL.

wow this is very true and IMO Bush was not worth the second overall pick. I was one of the guys who said that the Texans were crazy for taking Williams but now the Texans ex gm looks like a genius. I just can't give Bush much credit because he is just not a in between the tackle runner and i feel he's more of a WR than a running back.

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 06:25 PM
for us in 06, he was great, terrific pass blocking, adequate run blocking.

In 07 he got pushed around so much it was laughable, and it destroyed our running and passing game, where Brees was forced to throw immediately, which was why his yards per attempt dipped so much last season.

I've never seen his tenacious run blocking, it's a far cry from what LeCharles Bentley was when he was here.

He's always been a weak run blocker because he lacked the bulk and size to really move people, even in cleveland he got manhandled in the running game.

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 06:27 PM
wow this is very true and IMO Bush was not worth the second overall pick. I was one of the guys who said that the Texans were crazy for taking Williams but now the Texans ex gm looks like a genius. I just can't give Bush much credit because he is just not a in between the tackle runner and i feel he's more of a WR than a running back.


Because he can't run between the tackles on a piss poor oline? I actually didn't think he was worth a top three pick, but he's getting crucified for being in a crappy situation which is why I'm willing to wait to see how he does next season once NO hopefully can boost their oline with a legit Center and RT.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 06:51 PM
Because he can't run between the tackles on a piss poor oline? I actually didn't think he was worth a top three pick, but he's getting crucified for being in a crappy situation which is why I'm willing to wait to see how he does next season once NO hopefully can boost their oline with a legit Center and RT.

Hahahahahaha....I <3 Kardashian's ass though. So awesome. That's the only hole Reggie Bush knows how to hit without hesitating.

No line can be good enough if you hesitate!

giantsfan
10-07-2008, 06:53 PM
No line can be good enough if you hesitate!

Except Bush hasn't been hesitating as badly as he used and gets hit behind the line more than any other oline permits their RB to be hit. Give him a line that lets him get to the LOS before having to face blockers and he'll be more decisive.

BrownsTown
10-07-2008, 06:56 PM
Reggie Bush does more to help his team win than Mario Williams does to help his team win, but Mario Williams is a top player at his position.

Let's think about this for a sec.

Saints without Bush: Oh no, they have to play a better running back in Deuce McCalister. It sure is impossible to find a good punt returner these days though!

Texans without Mario: Pass rush? What pass rush?

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 06:59 PM
Let's think about this for a sec.

Saints without Bush: Oh no, they have to play a better running back in Deuce McCalister. It sure is impossible to find a good punt returner these days though!

Texans without Mario: Pass rush? What pass rush?

Without Bush, the Saints offense is predictable and easy to defend. Deuce McAllister? C'mon, he's no where near the player he once was before his 8492 knee surgeries.

Texans defense with out Williams? They still suck.

BrownsTown
10-07-2008, 07:05 PM
Without Bush, the Saints offense is predictable and easy to defend. Deuce McAllister? C'mon, he's no where near the player he once was before his 8492 knee surgeries.

Texans defense with out Williams? They still suck.

First, I'm sure the defense doesn't mind unpredictability to the tune of 3.3 YPC. Pretty sure they'll take that.

Second, without Reggie Bush's 2 big punt returns the Saints would have...still lost. If you want to use that argument. And another point, without Adrian Peterson the Minnesota offense would...still suck. Flawed argument.

Third, are we talking about the future as well? Because hell yes Mario means more, he's the centerpiece of that defense. Without ihim they have no pass rush whatsoever, with him they have one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'll take that over 3.3 YPC and the occasional punt return TD.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-07-2008, 07:17 PM
Without Bush, the Saints offense is predictable and easy to defend. Deuce McAllister? C'mon, he's no where near the player he once was before his 8492 knee surgeries.

And yet he's still essentially the same calibre of runner Bush is...

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 07:20 PM
First, I'm sure the defense doesn't mind unpredictability to the tune of 3.3 YPC. Pretty sure they'll take that.

Second, without Reggie Bush's 2 big punt returns the Saints would have...still lost. If you want to use that argument. And another point, without Adrian Peterson the Minnesota offense would...still suck. Flawed argument.

Third, are we talking about the future as well? Because hell yes Mario means more, he's the centerpiece of that defense. Without ihim they have no pass rush whatsoever, with him they have one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'll take that over 3.3 YPC and the occasional punt return TD.

And i'm sure an offense with Dan Campbell, Pierre Thomas, Lance Moore and Devery Henderson at the skill positions would be just NASTY!

If his 3.3 YPC doesn't scare you, his 38 receptions for 321 yards should be just disregarded as well, right? Say he keeps up his TD scoring pace.. If he were to have 18, 19 TD's, he'd be just another guy? I don't see him just falling off the face of the earth on ST's, and he only has three offensive touchdowns, and i'm more than positive that'll change.

I'm not talking about the future. I know Mario means more to the future of his team.

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 07:21 PM
And yet he's still essentially the same calibre of runner Bush is...

And by same caliber of runner you mean what? YPC? LOL :rolleyes:

Sniper
10-07-2008, 07:22 PM
Just a side note, Bush is averaging 29 yards per punt return and three touchdowns this year. Easily tops in the NFL.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-07-2008, 07:23 PM
And by same caliber of runner you mean what? YPC? LOL :rolleyes:

Yeah, which is, you know, a measure of how good of a runner you are, considering it takes into account the number of yards you get.... and the number of carries. Pretty simple, LOL.

Shane P. Hallam
10-07-2008, 07:25 PM
First, I'm sure the defense doesn't mind unpredictability to the tune of 3.3 YPC. Pretty sure they'll take that.

Second, without Reggie Bush's 2 big punt returns the Saints would have...still lost. If you want to use that argument. And another point, without Adrian Peterson the Minnesota offense would...still suck. Flawed argument.

Third, are we talking about the future as well? Because hell yes Mario means more, he's the centerpiece of that defense. Without ihim they have no pass rush whatsoever, with him they have one of the best pass rushers in the league. I'll take that over 3.3 YPC and the occasional punt return TD.

As much as I hate to say it, if we are talking about the present, I think Bush would be the bigger loss for the Saints. The offense would still be semi-productive, but they still have not found that impact WR other than Colston who can be consistent (Patten, Meachem, Henderson, Moore are not consistent). Deuce would get hurt if he had a full work load, and Thomas is good, not great. It would be a BIG hit to offense and special teams.

As for Mario and the Texans, yes, he is huge. I consider him the best D player in the league, but they would still have some playmakers in Ryan and Akoye, and with a slight change in defensive gameplanning, their defense would be a bit worse, but really, until the defense as a whole improves, that secondary won't do them any favors (right now, they can and will improve).

Down the line, definitely, Williams would be the bigger loss. If the Saints develop a few better WRs and Bush doesn't "improve", Bush's role could slow down down the line.

MetSox17
10-07-2008, 07:26 PM
Yeah, which is, you know, a measure of how good of a runner you are, considering it takes into account the number of yards you get.... and the number of carries. Pretty simple, LOL.

Yeah, pretty simple, and it does exactly what you said, and absolutely nothing more. It measures the average yards you get per carry. It does nothing at all to prove anything about how good a runner you are. I mean seriously, are you trying to justify Deuce being as good as Bush (or Bush as bad as McA) just by using YPC? C'mon, man. Give me a little more respect than that.

BrownsTown
10-07-2008, 08:22 PM
Yeah, pretty simple, and it does exactly what you said, and absolutely nothing more. It measures the average yards you get per carry. It does nothing at all to prove anything about how good a runner you are. I mean seriously, are you trying to justify Deuce being as good as Bush (or Bush as bad as McA) just by using YPC? C'mon, man. Give me a little more respect than that.

How about McCalister has proven more and Bush has never been a good runner. But no, he's great because he's a good reciever out of the backfield. And a good punt returner. Apparently those things make you "elite" now.

And regarding the catches, he's also averaging 8.4 yards per catch. Which is worse than anyone with 20 or more catches besides fellow RB Matt Forte. He's catching a lot of short passes.

Sniper
10-07-2008, 08:24 PM
And regarding the catches, he's also averaging 8.4 yards per catch. Which is worse than anyone with 20 or more catches besides fellow RB Matt Forte. He's catching a lot of short passes.

Every time he catches a pass, it's behind the LOS. 8-10 yards after the catch is pretty decent.

ChezPower4
10-07-2008, 08:36 PM
Because he can't run between the tackles on a piss poor oline? I actually didn't think he was worth a top three pick, but he's getting crucified for being in a crappy situation which is why I'm willing to wait to see how he does next season once NO hopefully can boost their oline with a legit Center and RT.

If Thomas can run well between the tackles... bush should be able to

Sniper
10-07-2008, 08:39 PM
If Thomas can run well between the tackles... bush should be able to

Except Thomas has an identical ypc average.

ChezPower4
10-07-2008, 09:18 PM
Except Thomas has an identical ypc average.

This year yes but last season no.
2007- Thomas 4.8
2007- Bush 3.7

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 09:24 PM
Thomas had that huge game when everything was clicking right and we had different o-linemen and dumbed down the scheme to just run from a power I.

They are both running in an identical scheme, behind identical linemen this year, and Bush is garnering way more attention, yet he's still higher than Thomas, who has basically been shelved because the defense can just blow him up in the backfield like Reggie, but at least Reggie brings the threat of other things.

Bengals1690
10-07-2008, 09:25 PM
Bush is just a playmaker. He's special. everytime he touches the ball, i hold my breath because i know that he is capable of taking it the distance. he is super fast and has amazing moves. He really needs to work on running up the middle. I see him as a barry saders type (i didnt say he was as good as sanders.) Either a big gain or a loss. You take the losses because you know that he can bust a huge one at any time. but he scares opposing teams anyway.


besides, we still have to give this kid time to develop. His OLine isnt all that great either, which doesnt help him. I think he tries to go outside to much and won't plow through people and fall forward for the extra yard. Those are my two biggest problems with him. But it doesn't take his awesome playmaking ability away. I would love him as a bengal.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 09:34 PM
The thing is, when the blocking was working Reggie was a rookie that was making huge mistakes, he figured it out with 8 games left in the season, so he finished his last 8 games of his rookie season, and the 2 playoff games over 4.8 yards per carry.

So he did that in his rookie year when our blocking was working, so I'm asking the people who are saying he can never be a running back, why was he able to do that then, and why wouldn't he be able to replicate that, or improve on that in the future when he works tirelessly on his game, and his body?

If he averages close to 5 yards per carry when the line is working, and he's still hauling in his receptions and doing his thing on special teams, what will be the gripe then?

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 09:36 PM
If he averages close to 5 yards per carry when the line is working, and he's still hauling in his receptions and doing his thing on special teams, what will be the gripe then?

When that happens, remind me.

Saints-Tigers
10-07-2008, 09:39 PM
When that happens, remind me.

Well the only time the line has ever been working since he "got it" it HAS happened.

It wasn't a 1-2 game fluke, it was 10 games when he was being heavily schemed against. We had good passing game, the run blocking was working, and Reggie was thriving at 4.8.

San Diego Chicken
10-07-2008, 10:05 PM
This is an old debate, and I need a break from the other debate going on so here goes -

If you add up everything Bush does for the Saints on the field (run, catch passes from multiple points on the field, pass block and return kicks) with what he has provided off of the field, I think he has been worth the #2 pick. NFL football is a business and when Houston passed on Reggie Bush, they let a big financial opportunity go by the wayside. Just to make a comparison, from 06 to present, the Saints have added over 200 million dollars in value to the franchise, while the value of the Texas has increased by "only" about 80 million dollars. Adding Drew Brees definitely factors into that as well, but there is no question that Bush is New Orleans's most marketable player and exposure generated by his presence alone is worth milions of dollars to the franchise. This with a stadium that needs to be replaced soon.

So even if you concede that Bush is merely an average player, you can see that he's already worth the contract and draft position, especially when you compare his impact off of the field to other recent top 5 draft picks. That's why I maintain Houston should have drafted Bush, because it's not always about what happens on the football field. Mario Williams is an elite defensive end in the NFL, but at the end of the day does he generate the same enthusiasm and exposure (and money) that Bush could have for the Texans? If you feel like saying yes, ask yourself when was the last time you saw the Texans in a nationally broadcast prime time football game.

NY+Giants=NYG
10-07-2008, 10:07 PM
I think this will be an going debate until he really shows he can do what he is doing now and can rush for 1200 or 1300 yards and do equally well catching the ball and on special teams. Basically Brian Westbrook but more value because of special teams. So basically think of a better Brian Westbrook, who is Devin Hester on special teams or just replicate the success he had at USC in terms of production. Until then I think people will always question Bush.

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 10:18 PM
We as fans, don't care about how much money he is making the organization.

San Diego Chicken
10-07-2008, 10:46 PM
We as fans, don't care about how much money he is making the organization.

That might be true, but that is ultimately what these types of things are judged by. You can repeat the cliche's about going to the Super Bowl, but owners don't make hundred million dollar investments to win some trophy.

Besides, If the team uses it's added value to make stadium improvements, step up involvement in the community and spend more on salaries for players and coaches, why shoudn't fans care about that?

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 10:59 PM
That might be true, but that is ultimately what these types of things are judged by.

By who? The owners? Good for them but until I have some form of ownership I will continue to judge them based on their play (in relation to their expectations).


Besides, If the team uses it's added value to make stadium improvements, step up involvement in the community and spend more on salaries for players and coaches, why shoudn't fans care about that?

Involvement in the community is overblown.

Stadium improvements are also overblown. I come to watch to the team, not the huge screen showing replays.

This isn't the MLB, teams have to spend money, I don't think I've ever seen a team in the modern era simply lay down and die (financially) because the fans weren't showing up or buying merch. The cap floor kind of forces that. Though we could be seeing a change in that if they don't figure out a new CBA.

zCaddyz
10-07-2008, 11:08 PM
i think he would be a beast in a zone blocking o-line

diabsoule
10-07-2008, 11:14 PM
The Saints are on their way to building their offensive line. Jammal Brown is back at LT, Carl Nicks is doing a great job at LG, Jahri Evans is a beast at RG, and Zach Strief finally replaced Jon Stinchcomb last game and did a fantastic job. Our weakness right now is center since Jonathan Goodwin sucks.

San Diego Chicken
10-07-2008, 11:15 PM
By who? The owners? Good for them but until I have some form of ownership I will continue to judge them based on their play (in relation to their expectations).



Involvement in the community is overblown.

Stadium improvements are also overblown. I come to watch to the team, not the huge screen showing replays.

This isn't the MLB, teams have to spend money, I don't think I've ever seen a team in the modern era simply lay down and die (financially) because the fans weren't showing up. The cap floor kind of forces that. Though we could be seeing a change in that if they don't figure out a new CBA.

I disagree, and teams make personnel desisions based upon profitability all the time (it may be the #1 thing personnel desisions are based on).

But since you didn't buy that, riddle me this:

The NFL is a business. It's also entertainment. The teams and the league draw their money from the fans; merchandise, ticket sales and so on. If a team increases it's revenue by a sizeable percentage, isn't that in essence the clearest indication from the fans that they approve of the draft choice? The fans wouldn't be buying Reggie Bush jerseys and selling out the Superdome if they didn't approve, would they?

Bruce Banner
10-07-2008, 11:24 PM
The fans wouldn't be buying Reggie Bush jerseys and selling out the Superdome if they didn't approve, would they?

The jerseys....with his hype, he would sell jerseys no matter what level of success he ends up reaching.

Post-Katrina, the citizens of New Orleans had to look towards the future, at the time was there a better harbinger of the future to attach to this mindset than Reggie Bush? A can't miss, already successful, exciting prospect who unexpectedly fell into their laps.

You can theorize why they sell out the Dome. Maybe its one of the only things they had left, maybe it was the only thing that they could all come together and enjoy, I have a feeling that they would still sell out the Dome even if Reggie never arrived. (for the reasons stated)

Saints-Tigers
10-08-2008, 01:15 AM
meh, im with Bruce here, I'm not really too concerned with jersey and ticket sales, and if the team were winning in 06 without Reggie, we would still be selling out the dome either way.

I don't think any prospect in the draft could have helped our team more though, I think in his rookie year, even more than now, teams were gearing up to make sure he didn't explode, and that opened up a lot.

MarioPalmer
10-08-2008, 01:23 AM
Today on ESPN’s Behind the Lines series the same debate was waged between a Scouts.Inc representative and Tim Hasselbeck. Both of them were adamant that Reggie Bush was not worth the #2 overall pick and both were of the belief that Maurice Jones Drew is a much better all around player and that Reggie Bush did not equal the value of his top 3 billing. They had called Jones-Drew a much better player at all aspects of the game and that he is an impact player for the offense and not just as a return man.

Also, they were huge fans of the Mario Williams pick and said “looking back on it, it was easily the right thing to do, and that they didn’t think any team would have passed on Mario had they known what they know now.” They were saying that until he can show that he is a running back and do things that a feature back can do he won’t live up to his draft status. They did give him credit for being an impactful player, but they were not sold on him and his playing style. The same question was asked again during NFL Live. Both Mike Golic and I think it was Tim Hasselbeck again agreed that Reggie Bush has yet to live up to his billing as a player that would revolutionize the RB position. Hasselbeck was also unimpressed with Bush’s 2 returns for TDs. He said that both returns were high school returns and that the Vikings have one of the worst special team kick coverage units in the NFL. Golic too, is of the belief that Bush has to make more of an effort to be a runner than just a receiver and special team’s player. And until he does that he will be an incomplete player and certainly not worth the #2 overall pick.

I thought it was interesting that I write this thread last night and today the ESPN brass set up at least 2 shows that made an effort to bring about this topic today on the heels of an outstanding special teams performance.

I don’t think the debate of Reggie Bush will ever end. His college career and media hype leading up to the 2006 NFL Draft was of epic per portions. And although the Reggie Bush versus Mario Williams debate has been over now for about 10 months, and obviously the Texans did the right thing, Bush will have to answer questions and continue to prove himself over and over again until he does become the next Marshal Faulk, Gale Sayers or LaDainian Tomlinson. I can’t help but feel that maybe Bush was unfairly expected to become that once in a lifetime player when in reality he is what he is and that the media had unfairly made him out to be something that he is clearly not. We will see, especially in the next 2 and 1 half years when the Saints will be in the position to resign him. If they resign him or extend him to a very lucrative contract, that of the same amount as other top backs, then I will believe that NFL GM’s and coaches see him worth it, but if they don’t then he truly was over drafted and over valued.

Saints-Tigers
10-08-2008, 01:33 AM
Just seeing the huge jump Marshall Faulk took in YPC when he left Indy for St. Louis makes me sick, because that's what I can see happening here, Reggie leaving in free agency to a team willing to build around his talents, and seeing an astronomical leap in his YPC, while maintaining his prowess as a receiver....

marks01234
10-08-2008, 06:58 AM
This is an old debate, and I need a break from the other debate going on so here goes -

If you add up everything Bush does for the Saints on the field (run, catch passes from multiple points on the field, pass block and return kicks) with what he has provided off of the field, I think he has been worth the #2 pick. NFL football is a business and when Houston passed on Reggie Bush, they let a big financial opportunity go by the wayside. Just to make a comparison, from 06 to present, the Saints have added over 200 million dollars in value to the franchise, while the value of the Texas has increased by "only" about 80 million dollars. Adding Drew Brees definitely factors into that as well, but there is no question that Bush is New Orleans's most marketable player and exposure generated by his presence alone is worth milions of dollars to the franchise. This with a stadium that needs to be replaced soon.

So even if you concede that Bush is merely an average player, you can see that he's already worth the contract and draft position, especially when you compare his impact off of the field to other recent top 5 draft picks. That's why I maintain Houston should have drafted Bush, because it's not always about what happens on the football field. Mario Williams is an elite defensive end in the NFL, but at the end of the day does he generate the same enthusiasm and exposure (and money) that Bush could have for the Texans? If you feel like saying yes, ask yourself when was the last time you saw the Texans in a nationally broadcast prime time football game.


I disagree. The Texans are not a nationally broadcast team because they are boring and poor. It's not Mario Williams' issue and Reggie Bush wouldn't really change that. NO is put into prime time for Katrina related support and because NFL knows the franchise isn't on the firmest fiancial ground.

Bush is the flavor of the week for ESPN but they are all so bent on making their claims about Mario being the worst #1 pick of all time. Eventually he's hype will die and they will be left with a good special teams players.

Ask the fans who they want, a guy who will help their city bring a championship home or the the media darling.

Sniper
10-08-2008, 07:43 AM
This year yes but last season no.
2007- Thomas 4.8
2007- Bush 3.7

Easier to average a full yard more when you have 102 carries less.

suposed2bsweated
10-08-2008, 10:05 AM
Im sure its been asked before, but i couldnt find it in search..
Why isnt bush move to WR fulltime? would it be seen as conceding defeat in a way by NO? I dont understand this.. he'd seem to be much more effective at wr as he has bulk most natrual wr's lack.. but possesses everyother tool necces.

MarioPalmer
10-08-2008, 01:12 PM
Im sure its been asked before, but i couldnt find it in search..
Why isnt bush move to WR fulltime? would it be seen as conceding defeat in a way by NO? I dont understand this.. he'd seem to be much more effective at wr as he has bulk most natrual wr's lack.. but possesses everyother tool necces.

Personally it would be a combo of things. I think that in a way it would be a sort of defeat in the eyes of purist's. I know I would look down on the move, becuase of the hype and so called "once in a life time RB" slogan that was run next to him on virtually every draft show and mag it would be a major dissapointment.

Also I believe that Reggie himself would dislike the move because of his ego, or more his pride would take a major hit, and he probably wouldn't let the move happen. You wouldn't ask LT to move or you wouldn't ask AD to move. I think thats how he would look at it and in the eyes of the media the move would signify that things for him at RB have not gone the way they planned, so their only way to defend themselves would be to murder him in the media by calling him a bust and all sorts of things. To be honest it would be counter productive and do more damage then help. I also think that it would put a damper on Bush's mentality and might even ruin physcologicaly. But don't be surprised if you see him line up more on the wing, crazier things have happened.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-08-2008, 01:47 PM
Yeah, pretty simple, and it does exactly what you said, and absolutely nothing more. It measures the average yards you get per carry. It does nothing at all to prove anything about how good a runner you are. I mean seriously, are you trying to justify Deuce being as good as Bush (or Bush as bad as McA) just by using YPC? C'mon, man. Give me a little more respect than that.

They're in the EXACT same situation. On the SAME TEAM. It doesn't get closer than that. What ypc says, is that when Deuce gets the ball for the Saints, he gets, on average, 3.4 yards. When Reggie Bush gets the ball, he gets, on average, 3.3. I'm not gonna harp on that difference of a tenth of a yard, because it is insignificant, and Bush has more carries. So I'll give you one, and say he's a slightly better runner than a washed up Deuce McAllister. Often, the simplest way to look at things is the right way.

Anyway, going beyond ypc:

The Saints blew leads against both Washington and Minnesota. Some of it falls on the defense, some of it falls on the running backs. You need a running game to close out games in the NFL, being a receiver in the backfield doesn't work as well. In the 4th Q against Washington, he touched it twice(2-yard run and 5 yard catch). In the 4th Q against Minnesota, Reggie Bush had three carries, for zero yards. That isn't gonna close out a game.

Yes, he had the two punt returns. Yes, that gave them the lead in the first place. But the bottom line is, against real playoff teams, he will not have punt returning to fall back on. A good player he is, but Devin Hester he is not.

I'll even go further and look at 4th Q production in wins, to see if I'm just harping on his bad games, which I will admit, would not be fair.

Tampa Bay: 3 carries for 5 yards, one catch for 42. Good job, but as I said, come playoff time, those big catches are gonna really reduce in frequency.

New Orleans: 3 carries 11 yards. Should be noted Deuce McAllister was 19 yards on 9 carries, but for some reason, Payton trusted him to close out the game over Reggie Bush.

Iamcanadian
10-08-2008, 02:35 PM
It's pretty obvious that Bush is never going to put up a 1,000 yards a season as a RB. IMO, he is a rather mediocre RB if you just examine his ability to run the ball. On some team it might not be as noticeable if they allowed him to carry the ball 20 times a game. He might break one of those carries for a long run and his average would be substantially better but in reality he would still be a mediocre RB. However running the ball isn't everything Bush does for the Saints. As a slot receiver he is very dangerous with the possibility he could even lead the league in receiving.
The one thing he does well for sure is force teams at least on passing plays, to double team creating a large amount of space for the other receivers on the team. The DE's have to worry about quick screen passes limiting their ability to go all out on a pass rush so in this manner he helps Brees have more time to throw the ball.
Then there is his return skills. People say he is no Hester but is that true. I don't think so. Teams are going to have to take the same care against Bush as they do Hester when kicking the ball or pay the consequences. He is clearly an elite returner.
I guessed he put up 19 TD's this season in his myriad chores he carries out for the Saints and if he gets close to that he will be an elite player and he is well on his way to accomplishing that.
You take him out of the Saints offense and I think Brees would suffer substantially.
Is he Elite, certainly not as a RB who grinds out the ball on the ground but his overall production and the fear he puts into his opponents seems to indicate that the sum of his parts makes him an elite player.
Was Vick an elite player but not conventional, well he certainly scared every DC he played against and I think Bush is in the same area. No he will never be a conventional RB but every DC fears him and has to game plan to stop him.
So while those whose minds are stuck in the conventional description of a RB and cannot accept the total package as being elite, will never accept Bush's successes, the fact is football people do accept him for what he is, a player who can change a game on his own every time he touches the ball and IMO, that makes him an elite player but not an elite RB just as Vick was an elite player just not as a thrower.

soybean
10-08-2008, 02:45 PM
Today on ESPNís Behind the Lines series the same debate was waged between a Scouts.Inc representative and Tim Hasselbeck. Both of them were adamant that Reggie Bush was not worth the #2 overall pick and both were of the belief that Maurice Jones Drew is a much better all around player and that Reggie Bush did not equal the value of his top 3 billing. They had called Jones-Drew a much better player at all aspects of the game and that he is an impact player for the offense and not just as a return man.

Also, they were huge fans of the Mario Williams pick and said ďlooking back on it, it was easily the right thing to do, and that they didnít think any team would have passed on Mario had they known what they know now.Ē They were saying that until he can show that he is a running back and do things that a feature back can do he wonít live up to his draft status. They did give him credit for being an impactful player, but they were not sold on him and his playing style. The same question was asked again during NFL Live. Both Mike Golic and I think it was Tim Hasselbeck again agreed that Reggie Bush has yet to live up to his billing as a player that would revolutionize the RB position. Hasselbeck was also unimpressed with Bushís 2 returns for TDs. He said that both returns were high school returns and that the Vikings have one of the worst special team kick coverage units in the NFL. Golic too, is of the belief that Bush has to make more of an effort to be a runner than just a receiver and special teamís player. And until he does that he will be an incomplete player and certainly not worth the #2 overall pick.



OH THEN IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!

I disagree. The Texans are not a nationally broadcast team because they are boring and poor. It's not Mario Williams' issue and Reggie Bush wouldn't really change that. NO is put into prime time for Katrina related support and because NFL knows the franchise isn't on the firmest fiancial ground.

Bush is the flavor of the week for ESPN but they are all so bent on making their claims about Mario being the worst #1 pick of all time. Eventually he's hype will die and they will be left with a good special teams players.

Ask the fans who they want, a guy who will help their city bring a championship home or the the media darling.

thats a lie. want proof? I live in southern california, and during bush's rookie season i got about 9 of their 16 games broadcasted. why would fox decide to show (who at the time was) a mediocre/decent drew brees. or an aging and over the hill joe horn and donte stallworth?

Bruce Banner
10-08-2008, 02:50 PM
I disagree. The Texans are not a nationally broadcast team because they are boring and poor. It's not Mario Williams' issue and Reggie Bush wouldn't really change that. NO is put into prime time for Katrina related support and because NFL knows the franchise isn't on the firmest fiancial ground.

Bush is the flavor of the week for ESPN but they are all so bent on making their claims about Mario being the worst #1 pick of all time. Eventually he's hype will die and they will be left with a good special teams players.

Ask the fans who they want, a guy who will help their city bring a championship home or the the media darling.

++, I completely agree with this.

As for Reggie moving to receiver, there are many reasons why he never will. One, it would be admitting his was a failure as a RB (as stated earlier) which would bring terribly bad PR and damage his already humongous ego. Two, how good would he be lining up as a receiver? I think we are mistaking his ability to play receiver with his hands and amazingness in space. There is more to being a receiver than simply having great hands. Can he run the routes? Would he be happy with blocking when the team decides to pound the rock? etc etc. Bunches of questions.


thats a lie. want proof? I live in southern california, and during bush's rookie season i got about 9 of their 16 games broadcasted. why would fox decide to show (who at the time was) a mediocre/decent drew brees. or an aging and over the hill joe horn and donte stallworth?

Have you seen distribution maps? It's like completely random.

Saints-Tigers
10-08-2008, 03:05 PM
They're in the EXACT same situation. On the SAME TEAM. It doesn't get closer than that. What ypc says, is that when Deuce gets the ball for the Saints, he gets, on average, 3.4 yards. When Reggie Bush gets the ball, he gets, on average, 3.3. I'm not gonna harp on that difference of a tenth of a yard, because it is insignificant, and Bush has more carries. So I'll give you one, and say he's a slightly better runner than a washed up Deuce McAllister. Often, the simplest way to look at things is the right way.

Anyway, going beyond ypc:

The Saints blew leads against both Washington and Minnesota. Some of it falls on the defense, some of it falls on the running backs. You need a running game to close out games in the NFL, being a receiver in the backfield doesn't work as well. In the 4th Q against Washington, he touched it twice(2-yard run and 5 yard catch). In the 4th Q against Minnesota, Reggie Bush had three carries, for zero yards. That isn't gonna close out a game.

Yes, he had the two punt returns. Yes, that gave them the lead in the first place. But the bottom line is, against real playoff teams, he will not have punt returning to fall back on. A good player he is, but Devin Hester he is not.

I'll even go further and look at 4th Q production in wins, to see if I'm just harping on his bad games, which I will admit, would not be fair.

Tampa Bay: 3 carries for 5 yards, one catch for 42. Good job, but as I said, come playoff time, those big catches are gonna really reduce in frequency.

New Orleans: 3 carries 11 yards. Should be noted Deuce McAllister was 19 yards on 9 carries, but for some reason, Payton trusted him to close out the game over Reggie Bush.

That's the thing though, have you watched McCallister this season? They want to save him for later in the season and not over work the knee, but he looks much better than he has in the past, he's a lot quicker and more explosive than he has been in a long while, certainly faster than he was in 06 when he rushed for 1000 yards.

Also, Reggie has broken more long runs now than in his rookie season, yet his YPC is still lower.... does anyone think he is just getting worse and worse as a running back? Because he's clearly getting better, and I think it says a lot that none of our backs can crack 3.5 YPC, and OUR LINE GIVES UP THE MOST HITS IN THE BACKFIELD THAN ANY TEAM, IT'S NOT DEBATABLE.

Bruce Banner
10-08-2008, 03:14 PM
McAllister is straight thug. The Bucs could never contain him, bad knees and all. This past off-season they would have to drain his knee after even light workouts, crazy stuff.

Saints-Tigers
10-08-2008, 03:21 PM
Yea, Deuce always had it out for the Bucs, I remember he had like 120 on a sprained ankle once against them.

I love me some Deuce, I'm so glad he's back too.

yourfavestoner
10-08-2008, 03:25 PM
That might be true, but that is ultimately what these types of things are judged by. You can repeat the cliche's about going to the Super Bowl, but owners don't make hundred million dollar investments to win some trophy.

Besides, If the team uses it's added value to make stadium improvements, step up involvement in the community and spend more on salaries for players and coaches, why shoudn't fans care about that?

By those standards, if Michael Vick hadn't of gone to jail, then his selection would have been considered a rounding success. While he never developed into the quarterback people though he would be, he was still successful and made the Falcons so much money it was unreal.

MarioPalmer
10-08-2008, 04:04 PM
[QUOTE=soybean;1250206]OH THEN IT MUST BE TRUE!!!!!!!
[QUOTE]


Never said it was true, I thought it was odd that the same topic I write my thread on ESPN does a story on two afternoon shows the next day. Although I agree to a certain extent I also find it interesting that the media is at least noticing that Bush isn't living up to his hype, yet they still aknowledged his success to a certain extent they also broke down his performance as being some what mediocre, so I had to at least respect that for what it was.

I was just being the messaenger in that post, so please keep nonsense posts in nonsense topics.

MetSox17
10-14-2008, 10:59 AM
If Reggie can turn it up a bit in the rushing department, he could get awfully close to having a thousand yards rushing/receiving. Wouldn't that be nice.

619
10-14-2008, 11:14 AM
If Reggie can turn it up a bit in the rushing department, he could get awfully close to having a thousand yards rushing/receiving. Wouldn't that be nice.

Unfortunately the way he's been running for most of his career this is still seen as more of a pipe dream. :(

Then again not everyone realistically believed Vick could rush for 1000+ yards in a season either. Atleast not me.

Sniper
10-14-2008, 11:31 AM
Unfortunately the way he's been running for most of his career this is still seen as more of a pipe dream. :(



Getting hit in the backfield because your OL sucks doesn't help.

AntoinCD
10-14-2008, 11:35 AM
Getting hit in the backfield because your OL sucks doesn't help.

He gets hit in the backfield because he's not quick enough to the hole. He kinda dances about instead of being more decisive. I'd be interested in seeing the Saints trying to run a stretch play where he needs to make one cut then he can try and make people in the second level miss.

soybean
10-14-2008, 03:23 PM
people use deuce and his ypc as an example or evidence that the o-line isn't that bad... but people don't realize that deuce is a straight up tank. he gets hit at the line of scrimmage and behind as much as reggie but ends up dragging defenders several yards after the initial contact. Reggie isn't that kind of RB.

so in short, yes, New Orleans' run blocking really is that bad.

Sniper
10-14-2008, 03:41 PM
people use deuce and his ypc as an example or evidence that the o-line isn't that bad... but people don't realize that deuce is a straight up tank. he gets hit at the line of scrimmage and behind as much as reggie but ends up dragging defenders several yards after the initial contact. Reggie isn't that kind of RB.

so in short, yes, New Orleans' run blocking really is that bad.

Deuce's ypc this year is almost exactly the same as Reggie's, IIRC

awfullyquiet
10-14-2008, 03:47 PM
Deuce's ypc this year is almost exactly the same as Reggie's, IIRC

Maybe this is a blessing in disguise for the saints.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-14-2008, 03:54 PM
OUR LINE GIVES UP THE MOST HITS IN THE BACKFIELD THAN ANY TEAM, IT'S NOT DEBATABLE.

How is that not debatable? You have these numbers I'm assuming? Let's see them.