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BlindSite
10-08-2008, 04:23 PM
Just as the issuance of fines for helmet-to-helmet hits isnt doing anything to get players to quit making them, the NFLs decision to crack down on criticism of officials likely wont stop players from griping.
Especially when the player in question has a six-year, $72 million contract.
Colts defensive end Dwight Freeney, who apparently has taken a cue from G.M. Bill Polian, has openly complained about the lack of holding calls this year.


Ive actually had a ref tell me hes not going to call holding unless he thinks Im going to make the play, Freeney told the Indianapolis Star. I used to get holding calls. Now they dont call anything. . . . Its ridiculous. (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081008/SPORTS03/810080368/1058/SPORTS03) Against Jacksonville, there was a guy who grabbed me by my hips and pulled me back.


Colts defensive lineman Raheem Brock echoes the sentiment. I dont know what it is or why its like that, but the O-line definitely gets off on a lot of holding calls, Brock said. I complain so much. I put my hands up while hes holding me and still no call, usually.


The real question here is whether the NFL will fine players for criticism only, or whether theyll act only when (for example) James Harrison of the Steelers suggests that an official had money on the game.


But the league has made it clear that no criticism is permitted. So if Sean Payton of the Saints is going to be fined for criticism that doesnt call into question the integrity of officiating, Freeney (and possibly Brock) should be, too.


An argument also could be made for fining Ravens defensive end Terrell Suggs, who had this to say after being slapped with a questionable roughing the passer flag against the Titans on Sunday: If anybody can go back and show me something I did illegal, then I would be happy to oblige and say I messed up. But when you are nowhere near his head - we hit arms, we hit arms it just goes to show the referee has too much power in the game (http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/football/bal-sp.ravens30b2oct06,0,4745295.story).



Seems like the league is being very tacit in their consent of poor refereeing.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-08-2008, 04:25 PM
Wow, they're starting to approach NBA levels of crap if they fully stop all criticism of officials. I think suggesting they have money on the game is fine warranting, but talking like Freeney and Brock are is fine.

saintsfan912
10-08-2008, 04:59 PM
Still waiting for Ed Hochuli and his crew to turn in their resignation papers to the NFL League Office. They have NO business calling games.

awfullyquiet
10-08-2008, 05:06 PM
Um. Everyone knows that no one will call most holds.

MetSox17
10-08-2008, 05:09 PM
I don't understand why they give the referees the option of ignoring holding calls if the player being held can not make a play on the ball, yet they've taken their right to judge a force out on the sidelines. Either take that aspect of their job out, or leave it all in.

iowatreat54
10-08-2008, 05:12 PM
Still waiting for Ed Hochuli and his crew to turn in their resignation papers to the NFL League Office. They have NO business calling games.

haha it's amazing what 3 bad calls can do after years upon years of respected reffing

btw, I'm sure the Saints loss has nothing to do with how awful they played for almost 45 minutes of the game, it's all Ed Hochuli's fault for missing a call!!!!

ShutDwn
10-08-2008, 05:16 PM
haha it's amazing what 3 bad calls can do after years upon years of respected reffing

btw, I'm sure the Saints loss has nothing to do with how awful they played for almost 45 minutes of the game, it's all Ed Hochuli's fault for missing a call!!!!

Exactly, and I wouldn't call it three bad calls, more like just one major call. The others are not going to make people start looking at every flag thrown.

MetSox17
10-08-2008, 05:17 PM
haha it's amazing what 3 bad calls can do after years upon years of respected reffing

btw, I'm sure the Saints loss has nothing to do with how awful they played for almost 45 minutes of the game, it's all Ed Hochuli's fault for missing a call!!!!

Of course it was Hochuli's fault! Gramatica would have made that FG had it been Mike Carey reffing :rolleyes:

iowatreat54
10-08-2008, 05:18 PM
Exactly, and I wouldn't call it three bad calls, more like just one major call. The others are not going to make people start looking at every flag thrown.

well the Denver game was bad, and he even admitted he was wrong but was following the rules and couldn't do anything about it...the blown facemask call that forced a fumble in the NO-Minn game was bad, but if it was anyone but Hochuli it wouldn't be even close to as big of a deal...people are acting like a couple calls negate a whole career of service

21ST
10-08-2008, 05:21 PM
All they have to do is bring the head slap back

Geo
10-08-2008, 05:39 PM
Is that from P(OS)FT? Screw that dumbass.

Here's the full article from the Indy Star on the blatant offensive holding that the league lets fly:

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081008/SPORTS03/810080368/1058/SPORTS03

The Colts defense hasn't merited one offensive holding penalty so far this season. Anyone who has watched them, especially Freeney, knows how much BS that is. Not one.

It's been going on for a while, I'm afraid. I think it was the Saints @ Colts season opener last season when I really became aware of how bad it was, the **** that was going on and the refs not calling it.

saintsfan912
10-08-2008, 05:40 PM
Of course it was Hochuli's fault! Gramatica would have made that FG had it been Mike Carey reffing :rolleyes:

So a no call of a blatant facemask that lead to a fumble on a promising drive on the Minny side of the field is no big deal right? If it wasn't for the facemask he would have never gotten close enough to strip that ball. It may not have led to a TD but it sure as hell turned the momentum around.

Gay Ork Wang
10-08-2008, 05:41 PM
So a no call of a blatant facemask that lead to a fumble on a promising drive on the Minny side of the field is no big deal right? If it wasn't for the facemask he would have never gotten close enough to strip that ball. It may not have led to a TD but it sure as hell turned the momentum around.
It was not Hochuli's fault. Nor was he the one near the facemask neither was he able to see it from his position

iowatreat54
10-08-2008, 05:42 PM
So a no call of a blatant facemask that lead to a fumble on a promising drive on the Minny side of the field is no big deal right? If it wasn't for the facemask he would have never gotten close enough to strip that ball. It may not have led to a TD but it sure as hell turned the momentum around.

yes, but that means Hochuli should resign? Come on, you aren't the first team to get screwed out of a call and lose...maybe if the Saints showed up the first half, Gramatica made that FG, you wouldn't even be complaining

MetSox17
10-08-2008, 05:44 PM
So a no call of a blatant facemask that lead to a fumble on a promising drive on the Minny side of the field is no big deal right? If it wasn't for the facemask he would have never gotten close enough to strip that ball. It may not have led to a TD but it sure as hell turned the momentum around.

The only reason you all are whining so much is because it was Ed Hochuli's crew. The missed calls will happen. It's magnified a lot more because a turnover happened that play as well. Quit whining and don't let Gus freakin' Frerotte beat you.

saintsfan912
10-08-2008, 05:45 PM
True but once you start letting officials take over games it starts getting ugly. He made quite a few very very bad calls in that game.

saintsfan912
10-08-2008, 05:46 PM
The only reason you all are whining so much is because it was Ed Hochuli's crew. The missed calls will happen. It's magnified a lot more because a turnover happened that play as well. Quit whining and don't let Gus freakin' Frerotte beat you.

Jason David beat us, get it right.

Gay Ork Wang
10-08-2008, 05:52 PM
Jason David beat us, get it right.
so Gus Frerotte exploited Jason David. Gus beat u guys

MetSox17
10-08-2008, 05:54 PM
Jason David beat us, get it right.

Whom you gave up a fourth round pick and 16 million dollars for. Geez, and you all wonder why you lose.

bigbluedefense
10-08-2008, 06:05 PM
Ive seen Michael Strahan get held on damn near every play for the past 14 years or so.

They need to stop complaining. Holding happens on every play. Unless its blatant, they won't call it.

Geo
10-08-2008, 06:34 PM
Except they don't call it when it's blatant either, unfortunately.

bigbluedefense
10-08-2008, 06:36 PM
yeah, if thats the case, then they have a legit argument.

but trust me man, ive seen some times Strahan get held so bad it was ridiculous. it comes with the territory of being a top tier rusher. they should take it as a compliment. i personally haven't noticed it to be called any less than years past.

Geo
10-08-2008, 06:47 PM
I'm not asking for ticky tack stuff, believe me. I know holding goes on every play, the Colts' offensive line (and tight end Gijon Robinson most definitely) included.

But when say a tackle has an arm around Freeney's neck and is grabbing him back with the other hand, on third down, call that **** damn it. I've seen this happen at the very least ten times since the start of last season, without one call. Anymore blatant and a facemask would have to be used. Honest to goodness, I can't remember the last offensive holding penalty on the tackle opposing Freeney. It's ridiculous imo.

Check out the numbers in that article, look at the massive dip in offensive holding penalties. I bet if one was to look at just the Colts since the start of '06 or '07, the Colts offense would outflag the opponents' offense in offensive holding. Which is laughable but unfortunately the situation.

Go_Eagles77
10-08-2008, 06:51 PM
It's amazing how many times Trent Cole gets held and nothing gets called, it seems like literally every other play.

Geo
10-08-2008, 06:58 PM
Bill Polian recently said that the trend for undersized DEs may have come and gone, and this is probably a big factor why.

bigbluedefense
10-08-2008, 07:06 PM
Those #s are off. Interesting.

In regards to small DEs coming and going, i can see that happening. Sort of. I think the base LE starts making a comeback.

WMD
10-08-2008, 07:07 PM
That's why the Lions can't get a pass rush.. there's an insane amount of holding going on. And the reason the Lions can't get anything on offense is because they haven't caught on to the new Holding fad in the NFL.

yourfavestoner
10-08-2008, 07:21 PM
Bill Polian and his players are crying about something again? Surprise, surprise.

I read that Bill Polian was upset by the interference call on fourth and one that extended Jacksonville's game-winning drive. How could he have been upset? That was the exact call he has worked so hard to get since he's been with the Colts. He should be thrilled that his work on the competition committee has paid off.

****** ginger.

Geo
10-08-2008, 07:27 PM
The same Jags who squeeked past the Steelers in the '07 playoffs because their left tackle wasn't called for holding on 4th down?

And then on Monday the league said there was holding, well no ****.

bigbluedefense
10-08-2008, 08:15 PM
Ahh, gotta love rivalries.

ChezPower4
10-08-2008, 09:55 PM
Maybe it's just me but holding can be called on a lot of plays and me personaly i hate watching games where they call holding like every three plays or so. I think that if someone cleary holds another player than fine I have no problem them throwing a flag. We've all seen those holding calls that when you watch it again your like "where??". let the guys play

Saints-Tigers
10-08-2008, 10:18 PM
The Saints still get called for holds :(

nobodyinparticular
10-08-2008, 10:30 PM
Ive actually had a ref tell me hes not going to call holding unless he thinks Im going to make the play, Freeney told the Indianapolis Star. I used to get holding calls. Now they dont call anything. . . . Its ridiculous. Against Jacksonville, there was a guy who grabbed me by my hips and pulled me back.

The whole point of standardized rules is so that you have an objective game. The moment you add "think" to the equation, it becomes a judgment call and thus no longer subjective.

The moment you begin to overlook a penalty for any reason is the moment that the game becomes subjective. And when that happens, the playing field is NEVER level.

ChezPower4
10-08-2008, 10:41 PM
The Saints still get called for holds :(

Jamal Brown got away with atleast 3 or 4 holds on Jared Allen in the game on monday
So your still getting away with some

Mr. Stiller
10-08-2008, 10:51 PM
I'm not asking for ticky tack stuff, believe me. I know holding goes on every play, the Colts' offensive line (and tight end Gijon Robinson most definitely) included.

But when say a tackle has an arm around Freeney's neck and is grabbing him back with the other hand, on third down, call that **** damn it. I've seen this happen at the very least ten times since the start of last season, without one call. Anymore blatant and a facemask would have to be used. Honest to goodness, I can't remember the last offensive holding penalty on the tackle opposing Freeney. It's ridiculous imo.

Check out the numbers in that article, look at the massive dip in offensive holding penalties. I bet if one was to look at just the Colts since the start of '06 or '07, the Colts offense would outflag the opponents' offense in offensive holding. Which is laughable but unfortunately the situation.

I'm not calling just Jacksonville out but seriously that was a terrible game for teams eliminating the pass rush illegally.

1) LaMarr Woodley was thrown to the ground by Tony Pashos while cutting inside. Doesn't sound bad until you hear that Pashos threw him by the facemask.

2) James Harrison ran past Khalif Barnes only to have his jersey literally pulled 3-5 inches from his body (Similar to a hold in the 2007 playoffs not called)

3) LaMarr Woodley was leg whipped by Greg Jones.

........

The only other nagging thing about Refereeing that I see is Roughing the Passer. Roethlisberger can't buy a RtP but Gerrard got one for being hit while he released the ball.

I wouldn't care about it if our QB got the same calls, but seriously Roethlisberger takes some nasty hits and never gets the benefit of the call.

That Shaun Rogers hit was absolutely ridiculous.

steelersfan43
10-09-2008, 12:54 AM
I'm not calling just Jacksonville out but seriously that was a terrible game for teams eliminating the pass rush illegally.

1) LaMarr Woodley was thrown to the ground by Tony Pashos while cutting inside. Doesn't sound bad until you hear that Pashos threw him by the facemask.

2) James Harrison ran past Khalif Barnes only to have his jersey literally pulled 3-5 inches from his body (Similar to a hold in the 2007 playoffs not called)

3) LaMarr Woodley was leg whipped by Greg Jones.

........

The only other nagging thing about Refereeing that I see is Roughing the Passer. Roethlisberger can't buy a RtP but Gerrard got one for being hit while he released the ball.

I wouldn't care about it if our QB got the same calls, but seriously Roethlisberger takes some nasty hits and never gets the benefit of the call.

That Shaun Rogers hit was absolutely ridiculous.

I know i was so pissed about that, he had let go of the ball, stood there still for almost two seconds then gets headbutted by mr fat **** in his injured shoulder and no call.

Dam8610
10-09-2008, 12:58 AM
Still waiting for Ed Hochuli and his crew to turn in their resignation papers to the NFL League Office. They have NO business calling games.

Hochuli made ONE very bad, very public call. 99% of the games he's refereed, he's been an excellent, as well as accommodating and explicit, official. If any crew needs to turn in their resignation papers, it's Walt Coleman and his crew. Have they EVER called a good game?

WMD
10-09-2008, 12:59 AM
What's the Shaun Rogers hit that you're talking about?

steelersfan43
10-09-2008, 01:05 AM
What's the Shaun Rogers hit that you're talking about?
Against the browns week two, ben threw a pass and stood their for two seconds and rodgers comes in and headbutts him in his shoulder.

steelernation77
10-09-2008, 01:09 AM
Against the browns week two, ben threw a pass and stood their for two seconds and rodgers comes in and headbutts him in his shoulder.

Absolutely one of the worst no-calls I've ever seen. Blatant roughing the passer.

Dam8610
10-09-2008, 01:12 AM
I read that Bill Polian was upset by the interference call on fourth and one that extended Jacksonville's game-winning drive. How could he have been upset? That was the exact call he has worked so hard to get since he's been with the Colts. He should be thrilled that his work on the competition committee has paid off.

****** ginger.

That's not at all what Polian wanted called, but you'd know that if you actually paid attention to the issue instead of just saying Polian was/is "crying".

After the 2003 season, as the result of a game called by one Walt Coleman (gee, I wonder who called the game between the Colts and Jaguars...), the competition committee (which, at the time, had Jeff Fisher as a member, still does I believe) decided to pass a "re-emphasis" of the defensive holding rule.

Defensive Pass Interference was called on that play, so that theory doesn't hold water. That said, how was it DPI? Does a defender no longer have a right to position on the field? Because Freddy Keiaho was just standing there, and Reggie Williams ran into him. Also, doesn't the ball have to be catchable for DPI to apply? Even if Freddy Keiaho didn't exist on that play, Reggie Williams was not getting to that ball.

That wasn't even the most egregious misinterpretation of the rule in that game though. Rashean Mathis pulled Marvin Harrison to the ground to get his interception in that game, with no call from the crew. In fact, the only time DPI was called on the Jaguars (specifically Rashean Mathis) of the MANY times it was committed by them was when Marvin physically displayed his frustration with the no calls.

BlindSite
10-09-2008, 03:29 AM
There's going to be holds that teams get away with and fairly. On a 4th and 24 that's a draw play for 6 yards, who gives a damn if a defensive end is held for example.

On 3rd and 10 inside the redzone and there's an arm hook, that has to be called regardless of whether or not the player is in position to make a tackle or get a sack.

besides which, Mario Williams, Justin Tuck, John Abraham, Julius Peppers, Kampman are all good defensive ends who're more than capable of making backside plays on runs. More the once X player isn't going to be in on the actual hole but can be prevented from running down the back as he's dancing before the hole because of a hold.

With teams studying which refereeing crews call holds more often, it needs to be more standardized. Its not really fair if someone's crew ignores holds more than often and it leads to more offensive continuity.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 06:45 AM
1) LaMarr Woodley was thrown to the ground by Tony Pashos while cutting inside. Doesn't sound bad until you hear that Pashos threw him by the facemask.

3) LaMarr Woodley was leg whipped by Greg Jones.



The NFL needed a competitive game. If they call everything that goes on against LaMarr Woodley, every game will turn into a five hour marathon, because no single man can stop LaMarr!

Sniper
10-09-2008, 06:46 AM
That wasn't even the most egregious misinterpretation of the rule in that game though. Rashean Mathis pulled Marvin Harrison to the ground to get his interception in that game, with no call from the crew. In fact, the only time DPI was called on the Jaguars (specifically Rashean Mathis) of the MANY times it was committed by them was when Marvin physically displayed his frustration with the no calls.

It's hard to get a read on Marvin, because his vagina starts bleeding every time he gets touched, whether it be legal or not.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 11:13 AM
The NFL needed a competitive game. If they call everything that goes on against LaMarr Woodley, every game will turn into a five hour marathon, because no single man can stop LaMarr!

I don't mind them holding, they can't hold Woodley.

I was worried about his possible health if he's getting whipped around by the facemask, and again, how easily an injury could be if he got leg whipped.

I remember Freeney getting a pretty easy 15 yard call for being legwhipped against Matt Light.

Dam8610
10-09-2008, 12:34 PM
It's hard to get a read on Marvin, because his vagina starts bleeding every time he gets touched, whether it be legal or not.

That's rich. Marvin doesn't ***** about calls nearly as much as most WRs do. How often do you see most WRs make the "flag throw" motion after a play? I've rarely seen Marvin express frustration about officiating. Just because you don't like his style of play (which, by the way, is and has been overexaggerated) doesn't mean teams should be able to mug him, and they have at times (especially in games that Walt Coleman calls) with no repercussions.

Smooth Criminal
10-09-2008, 12:41 PM
James Harrison got held almost every play against Jacksonville. Barnes was holding him by his facemask or jersey all game.

But the refs could call holding on every play if the really wanted to. They do seem to be giving the tackles much more to work with lately.

Smooth Criminal
10-09-2008, 12:42 PM
That's rich. Marvin doesn't ***** about calls nearly as much as most WRs do. How often do you see most WRs make the "flag throw" motion after a play? I've rarely seen Marvin express frustration about officiating. Just because you don't like his style of play (which, by the way, is and has been overexaggerated) doesn't mean teams should be able to mug him, and they have at times (especially in games that Walt Coleman calls) with no repercussions.

I hate that damn thing. Players act like they're actually gonna get a ref to throw a flag by doing it.

Cedric Wilson used to do that every time he didnt catch the ball no matter what.

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 12:50 PM
There is almost always holding calling on and unless it is blatant, it won't be called. I think everyone here who is claiming that their team's player got held every play during the game is just being a bit ridiculous. Yes, there are times where refs miss holding calls, but they are not as easily noticeable on a TV as they are in person.

Bengalsrocket
10-09-2008, 12:51 PM
I hate that damn thing. Players act like they're actually gonna get a ref to throw a flag by doing it.

Cedric Wilson used to do that every time he didnt catch the ball no matter what.

Housh does it all the time too. He throws his arms in the air and starts yelling at the ref.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 01:11 PM
That's rich. Marvin doesn't ***** about calls nearly as much as most WRs do. How often do you see most WRs make the "flag throw" motion after a play? I've rarely seen Marvin express frustration about officiating. Just because you don't like his style of play (which, by the way, is and has been overexaggerated) doesn't mean teams should be able to mug him, and they have at times (especially in games that Walt Coleman calls) with no repercussions.

well to be fair, it's hard to complain for a flag after a tackle when you run out of bounds instead of getting tackled 99% of the time ;)

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 01:15 PM
I think everyone sounds like a bunch of whiners here.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 01:17 PM
I think everyone sounds like a bunch of whiners here.
yea, its not like only 1 team doesnt get called. Its the same for every team and in the end it kinda balances out

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 01:18 PM
I think everyone sounds like a bunch of whiners here.

I agree. Refs aren't perfect, so don't expect them to make every single call.

Also, if I was a coach I would fine any of my players for criticizing the refs. It sets a dangerous precedent to the team to use the refs as scapegoats for poor performances.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 01:20 PM
well it's just the fact that every year there is X amount of blown calls, some huge some minuscule, and yet somehow the league continues to function successfully...this year is no different than any other year with the exception of which team feels they got shafted

for all I know, next year I will hate the refs and the NFL for blowing a game vs. the Lions for the Bears, but San Diego fans will think I'm dumb because their team hasn't been majorly effected by a reffing mistake even though they felt the same the past year

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 01:27 PM
iowa. when will there ever be a meaningful game between the lions and bears?

bad example.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 01:30 PM
iowa. when will there ever be a meaningful game between the lions and bears?

bad example.

exactly, because if we lost to the f'ing Lions based on one missed call, I would be severely depressed...but again, I would also blame the Bears for being so terrible they couldn't win before blaming the refs

I just didn't want to sound to cliche in saying Bears-Packers

Geo
10-09-2008, 01:39 PM
yea, its not like only 1 team doesnt get called. Its the same for every team and in the end it kinda balances out
There hasn't been one offensive holding penalty called against any of the Colts' opponents through four games this season.

Actually there was one flagged ... during Gary Brackett's interception return against Houston. Which the Colts obviously declined. So there was that, hey sound the alarms. End the investigation.

So excuse me and other Colts fans who ***** about this, especially as we've holding seen holding go uncalled. Including on some crucial third downs in that span.

And I'm sure the injustice will continue through this weekend, with Baltimore's offensive line in tow. Young player Jared Gaither should just go ahead and grab and hold and choke Dwight Freeney all day, like he's experienced thus far. Why not, the league is advocating such play.

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 01:47 PM
So if Hines Ward got fined for this hit, then it was well deserved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMnA5zumg1A

He seriously just led with his helmet the entire way. I'm surprised it was only 5k.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 01:48 PM
There hasn't been one offensive holding penalty called against any of the Colts' opponents through four games this season.

Actually there was one flagged ... during Gary Brackett's interception return against Houston. Which the Colts obviously declined. So there was that, hey sound the alarms. End the investigation.

So excuse me and other Colts fans who ***** about this, especially as we've holding seen holding go uncalled. Including on some crucial third downs in that span.

And I'm sure the injustice will continue through this weekend, with Baltimore's offensive line in tow. Young player Jared Gaither should just go ahead and grab and hold and choke Dwight Freeney all day, like he's experienced thus far. Why not, the league is advocating such play.
Its not like the refs intentionally **** with the colts...

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 01:51 PM
So if Hines Ward got fined for this hit, then it was well deserved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMnA5zumg1A

He seriously just led with his helmet the entire way. I'm surprised it was only 5k.

yea, if anyone complains about what happens to Ward for that hit they are dumb

I don't care if he wasn't flagged, just because refs missed a call doesn't mean it's ok to do something...that was a blatant shot at another player with no intention of playing legally, and as the announcer said, Ward had been doing it all game, maybe not illegally but still intentionally

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 01:53 PM
yea, if anyone complains about what happens to Ward for that hit they are dumb

I don't care if he wasn't flagged, just because refs missed a call doesn't mean it's ok to do something...that was a blatant shot at another player with no intention of playing legally, and as the announcer said, Ward had been doing it all game, maybe not illegally but still intentionally

The more I watch that the more I feel that that hit almost warrants a suspension. He led with his helmet all the way on that play and could have seriously injured Ed Reed.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 01:54 PM
So if Hines Ward got fined for this hit, then it was well deserved:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMnA5zumg1A

He seriously just led with his helmet the entire way. I'm surprised it was only 5k.

There's the problem with that.

1) that was last years Baltimore game.
2) he didn't get flagged, Fined or anything.
3) The hit he was fined for happened THIS season in the baltimore game 2 weeks ago.

4) The issue is 2 sided.
A) How can you be fined for a hit the refs didn't even determine to be worth a flag
B) How can you not tell him exactly which play he's being flagged for?

5) If leading with your helmet is supposedly a fine, I'm waiting for 2 fines to go out. 1 on Shaun Rogers, 2 to members of the 2006 Atlanta Falcons.

But then again, if it consists of stuff that happened to my team, I'm not allowed to speak of it, is that what has been said?

http://www.post-gazette.com/images4/20061024pd_bigbenhit1024_450.jpg

If thats not leading with the helmet or Helmet to helmet (No it didn't even get a flag for helmet to helmet contact) why should Ward be fined?

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 01:54 PM
The more I watch that the more I feel that that hit almost warrants a suspension. He led with his helmet all the way on that play and could have seriously injured Ed Reed.

I would actually agree with a suspension, they were away from the play, Ward intentionally breaks from his man to go at Reed, and then hits him illegally and dangerously when, if you are Ed Reed, you have to rationally assume he is just going to block you

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 01:56 PM
just because the refs didn't flag him for it doesn't mean it's ok

what if the refs missed the call? Does that mean if I punch a player, but since the refs don't see it then I can get away scot free?

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 01:57 PM
There's the problem with that.

1) that was last years Baltimore game.
2) he didn't get flagged, Fined or anything.
3) The hit he was fined for happened THIS season in the baltimore game 2 weeks ago.

4) The issue is 2 sided.
A) How can you be fined for a hit the refs didn't even determine to be worth a flag
B) How can you not tell him exactly which play he's being flagged for?

5) If leading with your helmet is supposedly a fine, I'm waiting for 2 fines to go out. 1 on Shaun Rogers, 2 to members of the 2006 Atlanta Falcons.

But then again, if it consists of stuff that happened to my team, I'm not allowed to speak of it, is that what has been said?

http://www.post-gazette.com/images4/20061024pd_bigbenhit1024_450.jpg

If thats not leading with the helmet or Helmet to helmet (No it didn't even get a flag for helmet to helmet contact) why should Ward be fined?

First, my bad on getting the wrong game. I would like to see the play where Hines Ward was fined because it would really help this situation. Secondly, He wasn't leading with his helmet because he already has a hand around Big Ben. Leading with your helmet isn't that tough of a term to comprehend and neither falcon was leading with their helmets.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 01:58 PM
A) How can you be fined for a hit the refs didn't even determine to be worth a flag

how is this a question? i dont get it. I mean, if something the one ref thought is okay, is later determined by Peirrera that it was a foul, why shouldnt he fine him? I mean refs mess up. Yes they do. They are HUMANS.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 02:02 PM
First, my bad on getting the wrong game. I would like to see the play where Hines Ward was fined because it would really help this situation. Secondly, He wasn't leading with his helmet because he already has a hand around Big Ben. Leading with your helmet isn't that tough of a term to comprehend and neither falcon was leading with their helmets.

Wish I had the video.

The player with his arm around him Initially led with his helmet, knocking Roeth's helmet backwards into another player with his helmet there.

If thats not even a 15 yard penalty then there is no roughing the passer.

If Ward got fined on hitting Ed Reed this year, then Reed should be fined for retaliating.

Dam8610
10-09-2008, 02:22 PM
i personally haven't noticed it to be called any less than years past.

Really?

Through five weeks, offensive holding has been called 157 times, which projects to 543 penalties over the full season. That would be a two-decade low, by far. Three years ago, officials called 880 offensive holding penalties, the most in 20 years.

That's from that article the Star had on the issue. The league is on pace for a two-decade low when there was a two-decade high three years ago. That's not something that's unnoticeable.

ATLDirtyBirds
10-09-2008, 02:35 PM
Holding is apart of the game, always will be. It's what OL are taught to do. If you are respected as an elite pass rusher, you are going to be held a lot. Especially if you are extremely quick of the ball and the OT forces himself to try and get you by grabbing on and not moving. It's going to be this way. Holds will be called

a. When both the OL and DL end up on the ground
b. When the DL is basically tackled
c. When the player is about to make some sort of play against the man with the ball
d. When the ref feels it's justified enough.

That's about it. Refs could call holding every play if they wanted to, but they use their judgement. Holding's always been a huge part of the game. Shouldn't be news to anyone.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 03:06 PM
That's rich. Marvin doesn't ***** about calls nearly as much as most WRs do. How often do you see most WRs make the "flag throw" motion after a play? I've rarely seen Marvin express frustration about officiating. Just because you don't like his style of play (which, by the way, is and has been overexaggerated) doesn't mean teams should be able to mug him, and they have at times (especially in games that Walt Coleman calls) with no repercussions.

Teams should be allowed to touch him without him bitching for a flag.

Look, Marvin, a linebacker! Better run out of bounds or fall down!

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 03:20 PM
If thats not leading with the helmet or Helmet to helmet (No it didn't even get a flag for helmet to helmet contact) why should Ward be fined?

That isn't. Can't you see the difference?

It's clear as freakin day!

Geo
10-09-2008, 03:24 PM
Teams should be allowed to touch him without him bitching for a flag.

Look, Marvin, a linebacker! Better run out of bounds or fall down!
Wait, I don't get it. What is Harrison supposed to do to a linebacker once he has the ball?

I passionately dislike the guy, but I don't get what the problem is with him going out of bounds or going down when there's no more YAC. I don't want him fumbling the ball anymore. He's 180 pounds soaking wet, he's not going to go through guys.

Really, that's one of the stupidest criticisms I hear. He's not Boldin or TO for crying out loud. His game was speed, hands, and routes, and now it's just hands and occassionally routes.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 03:26 PM
Wait, I don't get it. What is Harrison supposed to do to a linebacker once he has the ball?

I passionately dislike the guy, but I don't get what the problem is with him going out of bounds or going down when there's no more YAC. I don't want him fumbling the ball anymore. He's 180 pounds soaking wet, he's not going to go through guys.

Really, that's one of the stupidest criticisms I hear. He's not Boldin or TO for crying out loud. His game was speed, hands, and routes, and now it's just hands and occassionally routes.

That doesn't mean you run out of bounds when someone gets within 50 feet of you. Put a ******* shoulder down and stop being a vagina. It's not a question of being T.O or Boldin. It's a question of him shying away from contact and crying every time he gets breathed on.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:27 PM
That doesn't mean you run out of bounds when someone gets within 50 feet of you. Put a ******* shoulder down and stop being a vagina. It's not a question of being T.O or Boldin. It's a question of him shying away from contact and crying every time he gets breathed on.
yes cause it would help so much...

Sniper
10-09-2008, 03:27 PM
yes cause it would help so much...

2-3 extra yards? Better believe it would.

Geo
10-09-2008, 03:28 PM
The guy actually puts in a solid effort in run blocking.

If you want to focus on how finesse Harrison is, I would look to him before catching the ball than after.

I can't wait until he hopefully gets cut this offseason. Wayne, Gonzalez, and Clark deserve all the targets.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:41 PM
2-3 extra yards? Better believe it would.
a 50% to get 2-3 yards, 50% to lose the football cause the other guy is double ur weight. hmmmm

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 03:42 PM
a 50% to get 2-3 yards, 50% to lose the football cause the other guy is double ur weight. hmmmm

You also forgot 50% that his knees will end up like floppy hot dogs.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 03:43 PM
thats in the losing the ball. u cant have 150% duuuhhh

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 03:44 PM
thats in the losing the ball. u cant have 150% duuuhhh

Half Man. Half Bear. Half Pig. I think so.

Geo
10-09-2008, 03:45 PM
Yogi Bear?

:D

Sniper
10-09-2008, 03:46 PM
a 50% to get 2-3 yards, 50% to lose the football cause the other guy is double ur weight. hmmmm

There isn't a 50% chance you lose the ball. And there are very few people in the NFL that are double Harrison's weight (~360), and even fewer that could tackle him downfield. If that were the case, Wes Welker wouldn't average 5.4 YAC for his career

brat316
10-09-2008, 03:52 PM
I think the Refs have a secret plot to destroy the NFL. Bad calls, late flags, Ed Hulkuly making bad calls. Its all a secret plot, its some kind of conspiracy.

Lets not forget no cap next year, and then no NFL. With no NFL well no NFLPA that means no games. Unless they do like that one movie, The Replacements. Then it would be interesting.

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 03:55 PM
There isn't a 50% chance you lose the ball. And there are very few people in the NFL that are double Harrison's weight (~360), and even fewer that could tackle him downfield. If that were the case, Wes Welker wouldn't average 5.4 YAC for his career

Wes Welker also doesn't have hot dogs for knees

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:01 PM
There isn't a 50% chance you lose the ball. And there are very few people in the NFL that are double Harrison's weight (~360), and even fewer that could tackle him downfield. If that were the case, Wes Welker wouldn't average 5.4 YAC for his career
wait so if a guy like 250 runs towards u with full speed, ur 180 and u know u wont win the battle, ud just run right at him?

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 04:02 PM
wait so if a guy like 250 runs towards u with full speed, ur 180 and u know u wont win the battle, ud just run right at him?

thats what a lot of "No Name" Players have to do.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:02 PM
wait so if a guy like 250 runs towards u with full speed, ur 180 and u know u wont win the battle, ud just run right at him?

Brian Westbrook, who might weigh 200 pounds on a good day, runs at 250+ lbs guys all the time. Also, an average 180 pound man isn't getting paid millions to play a game. Man the **** up.

brat316
10-09-2008, 04:03 PM
wait so if a guy like 250 runs towards u with full speed, ur 180 and u know u wont win the battle, ud just run right at him?

Special Teams.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:08 PM
Brian Westbrook, who might weigh 200 pounds on a good day, runs at 250+ lbs guys all the time. Also, an average 180 pound man isn't getting paid millions to play a game. Man the **** up.
yes, but he is 200lbs full of muscles. look at poor starvin marvin. seriously though, id rather go out of bounds and try to get the ball into my hands again then let a big Linebacker hit me, prolly get me injured and get those 2 yards. Its not like he is not trying to get the first down.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:10 PM
Brian Westbrook, who might weigh 200 pounds on a good day, runs at 250+ lbs guys all the time. Also, an average 180 pound man isn't getting paid millions to play a game. Man the **** up.

it's not like you (and I believe it also) are saying he should throw his body at the will of defenders, but seriously it would be nice to see him, you know, try and make a play once in a while...it's not that sweet just to be able to catch the ball and then stop playing, try to make a play or get more than what the QB gives you. It's like he thinks, "Oh, I caught the ball, my job is done." I don't mind a WR occasionally going out to avoid a hit, but he does it every ******* catch, and it's incredibly annoying. Quit being such a ***** and play the ******* game like every other player plays.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:12 PM
it's not like you (and I believe it also) are saying he should throw his body at the will of defenders, but seriously it would be nice to see him, you know, try and make a play once in a while...it's not that sweet just to be able to catch the ball and then stop playing, try to make a play or get more than what the QB gives you. It's like he thinks, "Oh, I caught the ball, my job is done." I don't mind a WR occasionally going out to avoid a hit, but he does it every ******* catch, and it's incredibly annoying. Quit being such a ***** and play the ******* game like every other player plays.

/end thread

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:13 PM
yes, but he is 200lbs full of muscles. look at poor starvin marvin. seriously though, id rather go out of bounds and try to get the ball into my hands again then let a big Linebacker hit me, prolly get me injured and get those 2 yards. Its not like he is not trying to get the first down.

If you're going to get injured by one hit, you're in the wrong game. I'm sure tennis might need more players. Maybe basketball.

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 04:13 PM
Brian Westbrook, who might weigh 200 pounds on a good day, runs at 250+ lbs guys all the time. Also, an average 180 pound man isn't getting paid millions to play a game. Man the **** up.

God your math is horrible.
Your english may be good. But your math. Not so much.

200, 250 lb. None of it matters unless you're calculating point of contact and other stress and strain forces that have to do with the angle and direction of forces which allow you to bounce off.

Physical Wide outs NOT like Harrison have the physical ability and the knees to properly direct their body into avoiding full contact with corners and able to use their leverage to get around them.

Marvin Harrison, at his size and strength, has never been able to really out leverage big corners while route running. But. Where he does kill you is lightning fast reaction times and the ability to beat the corner. Asking him to play physical isn't his job duty. His job is to catch the ball as a possession receiver.

Besides, the man, when able, will throw down good blocks.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:15 PM
God your math is horrible.
Your english may be good. But your math. Not so much.

Valid point. I suck at math.

200, 250 lb. None of it matters unless you're calculating point of contact and other stress and strain forces that have to do with the angle and direction of forces which allow you to bounce off.

Physical Wide outs NOT like Harrison have the physical ability and the knees to properly direct their body into avoiding full contact with corners and able to use their leverage to get around them.

Marvin Harrison, at his size and strength, has never been able to really out leverage big corners while route running. But. Where he does kill you is lightning fast reaction times and the ability to beat the corner. Asking him to play physical isn't his job duty. His job is to catch the ball as a possession receiver.

Besides, the man, when able, will throw down good blocks.

So basically it's okay for him to be a ***** every time he sees contact? Ah, okay.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:17 PM
Valid point. I suck at math.



So basically it's okay for him to be a ***** every time he sees contact? Ah, okay.
He is not a *****, is smart...thats why he hardly gets injured by hits. its not like everyone want him to be a train and run pass everyone.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:18 PM
he is a great blocker, I won't doubt that, but that isn't even comparable to taking a hit. So because he can block better than most WRs, he should be excused from getting hit like them? Look, if he doesn't want to get hit because he's too old or has a huge vagina, that's his choice, I just find it incredibly annoying that he chooses to do nothing once he catches the ball and basically has the QB do all the work, and once the ball gets to him then his job is done.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:19 PM
why is it so good if someone takes a hit? i just dont get it. i thought its about not getting hit...

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:20 PM
he is a great blocker

Good, not great. Terrell Owens is a great blocker. Harrison is good to very good.

I won't doubt that, but that isn't even comparable to taking a hit. So because he can block better than most WRs, he should be excused from getting hit like them? Look, if he doesn't want to get hit because he's too old or has a huge vagina, that's his choice, I just find it incredibly annoying that he chooses to do nothing once he catches the ball and basically has the QB do all the work, and once the ball gets to him then his job is done.

13 yard out route and done! It's perfect. He gets the ball and gets to duck out of bounds immediately.

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 04:20 PM
I'm so glad this thread isn't offtopic.

Hows the weather in your area Sniper?

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:20 PM
why is it so good if someone takes a hit? i just dont get it. i thought its about not getting hit...

It's a question of taking a hit to make a play. Marvin Harrison wouldn't take a hit to win the Super Bowl.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:22 PM
It's a question of taking a hit to make a play. Marvin Harrison wouldn't take a hit to win the Super Bowl.
cause he knows he wouldnt win...

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:22 PM
why is it so good if someone takes a hit? i just dont get it. i thought its about not getting hit...

it's not so much looking to take hits, it's the fact he doesn't try to do anything after the catch. He doesn't try for extra yards or to make anything happen, he thinks once he catches the ball he doesn't have to do anything because he's too old and shouldn't get hit. Have there been any great WRs that have done that? I'd like to think there are WRs that have accomplished a lot that still take hits, it's not like him not taking hits has made him so much better than anyone

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 04:22 PM
Valid point. I suck at math.



So basically it's okay for him to be a ***** every time he sees contact? Ah, okay.

Why wouldn't it be? If asking for him to fight for more yards results in either A) more injuries or B) more fumbles. I'll ask him to stay healthy and hold onto the ball TYVM.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:23 PM
so basically he doesn't have to go for more yards because it may get him hurt or fumble, when 95% of all WRs do that and don't get hurt or fumble hardly any more than he does?

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:24 PM
it's not so much looking to take hits, it's the fact he doesn't try to do anything after the catch. He doesn't try for extra yards or to make anything happen, he thinks once he catches the ball he doesn't have to do anything because he's too old and shouldn't get hit. Have there been any great WRs that have done that? I'd like to think there are WRs that have accomplished a lot that still take hits, it's not like him not taking hits has made him so much better than anyone
He tries hard. He tries to evade defenders, he tries to out juke them. He does not try to take them man on man with sheer power

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:26 PM
so basically he doesn't have to go for more yards because it may get him hurt or fumble, when 95% of all WRs do that and don't get hurt or fumble hardly any more than he does?

Just more excuses.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:27 PM
so u would want Desean jackson to catch the ball and try to run through Ray Lewis with full force?

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:28 PM
so u would want Desean jackson to catch the ball and try to run through Ray Lewis with full force?

If it meant getting a first down, all day err' day.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:28 PM
He tries hard. He tries to evade defenders, he tries to out juke them. He does not try to take them man on man with sheer power

so he does everything that an average WR does...if you consider him running laterally toward sidelines trying more than average WRs, great.

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 04:30 PM
so basically he doesn't have to go for more yards because it may get him hurt or fumble, when 95% of all WRs do that and don't get hurt or fumble hardly any more than he does?

Who the **** cares when you A) can do what he has done, and B) continues to be productive and move the chains EVEN THOUGH he doesn't fight for yards.

If he wasn't fighting for yards when it counted (like for first downs, or field goal range), please point out moments where that happened. If not, the point of gaining extra yardage over a first down is moot when you have such a consistent offense that routinely leads the league in third down conversions...

When you can prove to me that gaining a guaranteed 20 yards on one play is better than gaining 20 guaranteed yards on 6 plays. Let me know

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:31 PM
honestly, no one has said he should try and "run through defenders" or "run full force into defenders" but he doesn't even come close to contact, he doesn't try and break tackles, or juke inside to avoid defenders...he runs away from defenders toward sidelines

it's not like anyone is saying run full steam ahead straight on at defenders and don't flinch, but try to do anything other than prance out of bounds

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:32 PM
Who the **** cares when you A) can do what he has done, and B) continues to be productive and move the chains EVEN THOUGH he doesn't fight for yards.

If he wasn't fighting for yards when it counted (like for first downs, or field goal range), please point out moments where that happened. If not, the point of gaining extra yardage over a first down is moot when you have such a consistent offense that routinely leads the league in third down conversions...

When you can prove to me that gaining a guaranteed 20 yards on one play is better than gaining 20 guaranteed yards on 6 plays. Let me know

so rather than try and get more yards to help your team, you should avoid being tackled because you're afraid of losing the ball or getting hurt? I understand the point about his offense, but are you telling me you think Harrison if he were on like the Bears, would try and do more after the catch because he knows our offense sucks and can't consistently move the ball?

awfullyquiet
10-09-2008, 04:35 PM
so rather than try and get more yards to help your team, you should avoid being tackled because you're afraid of losing the ball or getting hurt? I understand the point about his offense, but are you telling me you think Harrison if he were on like the Bears, would try and do more after the catch because he knows our offense sucks and can't consistently move the ball?

But that's not the case with the colts.

He does exactly what he's asked to do. Sure you'd like him to do more. But can you knock the man for doing exactly what he's been told to do for 10 years by peyton frickan manning?

Harrison has a great knack for knowing WHERE the first down marker is. He has great field presence and makes catches. This year is a little different, but, for christ sake, the man has lead the league in first downs except for last year for 4-5 years.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:36 PM
If it meant getting a first down, all day err' day.
show me one play where he has not try to get the first down that he would have gotten by totally getting hit and chose to get out of bounds.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:37 PM
show me one play where he has not try to get the first down that he would have gotten by totally getting hit and chose to get out of bounds.

Watch a Colts game.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:39 PM
But that's not the case with the colts.

He does exactly what he's asked to do. Sure you'd like him to do more. But can you knock the man for doing exactly what he's been told to do for 10 years by peyton frickan manning?

Harrison has a great knack for knowing WHERE the first down marker is. He has great field presence and makes catches. This year is a little different, but, for christ sake, the man has lead the league in first downs except for last year for 4-5 years.

but see, the Colts offense hasn't always been the way it is...they were terrible 10 years ago, you can't honestly tell me that he was told to catch and do nothing else when their offense was a joke. I don't doubt everything he does or knows, because he is a great WR, but that one aspect of his game is extremely annoying and IMO is just a cop out for not doing more. I guess I would just like to have a WR that does more than run 12 yards, catch, and stop playing. What other great WRs have ever done that in their career?

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:40 PM
Watch a Colts game.
i do. he usually gets the first down. thats why he was leading so many years in getting first downs

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:41 PM
i do. he usually gets the first down. thats why he was leading so many years in getting first downs

And there's also a reason why his YAC sucks.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:42 PM
but see, the Colts offense hasn't always been the way it is...they were terrible 10 years ago, you can't honestly tell me that he was told to catch and do nothing else when their offense was a joke. I don't doubt everything he does or knows, because he is a great WR, but that one aspect of his game is extremely annoying and IMO is just a cop out for not doing more. I guess I would just like to have a WR that does more than run 12 yards, catch, and stop playing. What other great WRs have ever done that in their career?

Wes Welker, who is smaller than Harrison, consistently goes over the middle. There's no reason why Harrison can't do it.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:42 PM
And there's also a reason why his YAC sucks.
yes because he gets the first down and then tries to outjuke or outrun people. Why isnt he trying to break a tackle? Maybe because he cant?

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:44 PM
Wes Welker, who is smaller than Harrison, consistently goes over the middle. There's no reason why Harrison can't do it.

Harrison is old, and smart, and doesn't want to fumble, because he knows that if he gets hit there is a chance, even a tiny chance, that he might fumble, and rather have confidence and know he can hold onto the ball like every other player that gets hit, running out of bounds is smart.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:48 PM
Harrison is old, and smart, and doesn't want to fumble, because he knows that if he gets hit there is a chance, even a tiny chance, that he might fumble, and rather have confidence and know he can hold onto the ball like every other player that gets hit, running out of bounds is smart.

Correct. Because every time you get hit who weighs more than you, you fumble. Fact of life.

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:49 PM
Correct. Because every time you get hit who weighs more than you, you fumble. Fact of life.

60% of the time it happens all the time.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:49 PM
Correct. Because every time you get hit who weighs more than you, you fumble. Fact of life.
Well on one side, Harrison has the chance to not succeed in overpowering that guy, and on the other side he has the chance to fumble or get injured. Its a lose lose situation

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:52 PM
Well on one side, Harrison has the chance to not succeed in overpowering that guy, and on the other side he has the chance to fumble or get injured. Its a lose lose situation

Marvin Harrison has fumbled 12 times in his regular season career. I assume that he's only been hit 12 times?

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:53 PM
no, but there is always a chance. Why risk it when u have nothing to gain?

iowatreat54
10-09-2008, 04:54 PM
no, but there is always a chance. Why risk it when u have nothing to gain?

why does every other WR risk it then? Hell, why does anyone even run with the ball if they can fumble it at some point?

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:55 PM
why does every other WR risk it then? Hell, why does anyone even run with the ball if they can fumble it at some point?
because they have a chance to break a tackle or they think they have. Marvin doesnt and he clearly knows it

Sniper
10-09-2008, 04:58 PM
no, but there is always a chance. Why risk it when u have nothing to gain?

Nothing to gain? Give me a break. It's not like he's going to get backed up five yards every time.

New rule: Receivers and running backs, no more taking on a defender. You have nothing to gain.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 04:59 PM
he has nothing to gain
seriously u think he can outmatch a LB?

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:07 PM
he has nothing to gain
seriously u think he can outmatch a LB?

Not gonna find out until you try. What's his excuse for corners and safeties?

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 05:13 PM
he tries to outrun/juke them. seriously though he gets the first down, tries to outrun them or make them miss. what do you want more?

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:16 PM
he tries to outrun/juke them. seriously though he gets the first down, tries to outrun them or make them miss. what do you want more?

Him attempting to take a hit for extra yards once in a blue moon. There are numerous times where taking a hit will give you more yards than trying to juke and getting wrapped up.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 05:17 PM
Him attempting to take a hit for extra yards once in a blue moon. There are numerous times where taking a hit will give you more yards than trying to juke and getting wrapped up.
yes but there are also numerous times were u ******* fumble or get injured. I dont get ur point, ud rather have 2-3 more yards and risk him getting injured?

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:19 PM
yes but there are also numerous times were u ******* fumble or get injured. I dont get ur point, ud rather have 2-3 more yards and risk him getting injured?

Oh shut up about the fumbling. I swear you think people fumble every time they get touched. He's fumbled 12 times in his regular season. Has he only been hit 12 times? No. Then stop mentioning fumbling every time. You can take a hit and hang onto the ball. It's been done many, many, many times before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c5jwoWPRpI

OMG why didn't he fumble? He got hit!

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 05:25 PM
NO BUT THERE IS A CHANCE. and there always be. Steven Jackson has a fairly high chance to get pass them. ******* Marvin harrison does not. that means marvin harrison has hardly anything to gain. why get those 2 yards? he will just come out and get u 10 more the next play. i dont see why u want him to get those 2 yards unless its a first down or a TD. and we already seen that he gets the first downs

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:31 PM
NO BUT THERE IS A CHANCE. and there always be. Steven Jackson has a fairly high chance to get pass them. ******* Marvin harrison does not. that means marvin harrison has hardly anything to gain. why get those 2 yards? he will just come out and get u 10 more the next play. i dont see why u want him to get those 2 yards unless its a first down or a TD. and we already seen that he gets the first downs

And there's a chance that he breaks the tackle and scores a TD. Obviously she chooses the easy way out. Play the odds. Marvin Harrison has fumbled 12 times in 1,088 career regular season touches. That's a 1.1% chance of fumbling. The odds of gaining extra yards are significantly higher than 1.1%, no matter what excuse you want to play for Harrison.

themaninblack
10-09-2008, 05:31 PM
Why even play football?

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:32 PM
Why even play football?

Might break a fingernail or something...

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 05:32 PM
And there's a chance that he breaks the tackle and scores a TD. Obviously she chooses the easy way out. Play the odds. Marvin Harrison has fumbled 12 times in 1,088 career regular season touches. That's a 1.1% chance of fumbling. The odds of gaining extra yards are significantly higher than 1.1%, no matter what excuse you want to play for Harrison.
maybe thats because he doesnt risk it that much?

seriously though, why do u want to get those 2 yards that are not really that significant?

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:33 PM
maybe thats because he doesnt risk it that much?

Without a doubt, one of the five worst arguments I've heard on this site. Well done. You essentially just told me he's a *****.

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:34 PM
seriously though, why do u want to get those 2 yards that are not really that significant?

Every single yard is significant. First down after those 2 yards becomes 3rd and 2 instead, and so on and so forth.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 05:37 PM
Every single yard is significant. First down after those 2 yards becomes 3rd and 2 instead, and so on and so forth.
Now why would he ******* risk to get injured, u dont really answer to anything I say. I ask why would he risk it, u say he doesnt fumble, i say yea maybe the reason why he doesnt fumble that much is because how he plays. How is that bad reasoning? but if u dont get that idk.

So he gets the ******* first down. he gets them almost everytime, so thats not the problem. Now if its 1 and 10 from the 32 or from the 34, what difference does it make? Its not like the colts lost because of those 2 yards. No last time i checked they were ******* great the last couple of season because of him and manning

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:43 PM
Now why would he ******* risk to get injured, u dont really answer to anything I say. I ask why would he risk it, u say he doesnt fumble, i say yea maybe the reason why he doesnt fumble that much is because how he plays. How is that bad reasoning? but if u dont get that idk.

Your aversion to properly using the English language aside, your post makes no sense. Terrell Owens, arguably the league's most physical and badass receiver, has fumbled on less than 1% of his career touches. That's less than Harrison's 1.1%. Clearly, he's doing fine by going for the extra yards. Yes, he's much bigger, but that doesn't mean he's going to get it every time.

So he gets the ******* first down. he gets them almost everytime, so thats not the problem.

What if it's 4th and 12, game on the line, and he doesn't go for the 13th yard. Colts lose. But hey, at least he didn't fumble.

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 05:44 PM
Stop bringing hypothetical arguments here. Bring in evidence of it happening in a critical situation, which is what really matters.

Geo
10-09-2008, 05:44 PM
Agree to disagree and move on, the two of you.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 05:44 PM
Your aversion to properly using the English language aside, your post makes no sense. Terrell Owens, arguably the league's most physical and badass receiver, has fumbled on less than 1% of his career touches. That's less than Harrison's 1.1%. Clearly, he's doing fine by going for the extra yards. Yes, he's much bigger, but that doesn't mean he's going to get it every time.



What if it's 4th and 12, game on the line, and he doesn't go for the 13th yard. Colts lose. But hey, at least he didn't fumble.
when did he do that? seriously when? so ur saying cause he does it when its not that important he will def not try it when it is important? nice logic

Sniper
10-09-2008, 05:46 PM
when did he do that? seriously when? so ur saying cause he does it when its not that important he will def not try it when it is important? nice logic

Not as sweet as your "omg he might fumble" logic. We can't all come up with theories out of left field.

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 05:47 PM
So, on a side note it seems, people should stop bitching about holding calls on their team because as was mentioned pages back when this thread was still relevant, it all balances out in the end.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 05:51 PM
So, on a side note it seems, people should stop bitching about holding calls on their team because as was mentioned pages back when this thread was still relevant, it all balances out in the end.
i said that too *high five*

Turtlepower
10-09-2008, 05:56 PM
i said that too *high five*

Kristin Bell is a bad actress and you got into a pointless argument. No "high five" for you!

Dam8610
10-09-2008, 06:02 PM
it's not like you (and I believe it also) are saying he should throw his body at the will of defenders, but seriously it would be nice to see him, you know, try and make a play once in a while...it's not that sweet just to be able to catch the ball and then stop playing, try to make a play or get more than what the QB gives you. It's like he thinks, "Oh, I caught the ball, my job is done." I don't mind a WR occasionally going out to avoid a hit, but he does it every ******* catch, and it's incredibly annoying. Quit being such a ***** and play the ******* game like every other player plays.

/end thread

That would be a valid argument...if Marvin never went over the middle, but he has many times, even a few times this season. Besides, none of this has to do with the original point, which was Rahsean Mathis was getting away with murder as far as the DPI rule goes against Marvin, until Marvin physically displayed frustration. Before that, I counted at least 3 times where Marvin was targeted, Mathis did something to interfere, and nothing was called. He even got away with it a couple of times after that as well. Watch the game instead of making assumptions not based in reality.

Dam8610
10-09-2008, 06:07 PM
So, on a side note it seems, people should stop bitching about holding calls on their team because as was mentioned pages back when this thread was still relevant, it all balances out in the end.

Again:

Through five weeks, offensive holding has been called 157 times, which projects to 543 penalties over the full season. That would be a two-decade low, by far. Three years ago, officials called 880 offensive holding penalties, the most in 20 years.

That's from that article the Star had on the issue. The league is on pace for a two-decade low when there was a two-decade high three years ago. That's not something that's unnoticeable.

Doesn't seem like something that "balances out" either, unless you're talking over the course of many seasons. Unless, of course, the league starts actually calling holding.

Gay Ork Wang
10-09-2008, 06:08 PM
still, all of the teams will be called less

Mr. Stiller
10-09-2008, 09:32 PM
maybe thats because he doesnt risk it that much?

seriously though, why do u want to get those 2 yards that are not really that significant?

2 yards every reception right?

Even HALF his receptions... Would leave him with an extra 1059 yards.

with all his receptions 2,118 yards..

If you do some math.. he averages 1 TD per 113.77 yards...

thats an additional 18 TD's.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-09-2008, 10:30 PM
Every single yard is significant. First down after those 2 yards becomes 3rd and 2 instead, and so on and so forth.

Except he gets a boatload of first downs already. More than most guys who get all the YAC. I'd rather have a guy run a 10-yard out and then go out of bounds with a first, than have my receiver catch a screen pass at the LOS and then break a tackle and get 8 yards for 3rd and 2.

Plus, he is frail. Look at him. He tries to be like Brandon Marshall, he's gonna miss time, period.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-09-2008, 10:32 PM
Your aversion to properly using the English language aside, your post makes no sense. Terrell Owens, arguably the league's most physical and badass receiver, has fumbled on less than 1% of his career touches. That's less than Harrison's 1.1%. Clearly, he's doing fine by going for the extra yards. Yes, he's much bigger, but that doesn't mean he's going to get it every time.



What if it's 4th and 12, game on the line, and he doesn't go for the 13th yard. Colts lose. But hey, at least he didn't fumble.

Yeah, because he's really not gonna try to get an extra yard to win the game. Real possibility. Bring something real to the table or GTFO.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-09-2008, 10:34 PM
2 yards every reception right?

Even HALF his receptions... Would leave him with an extra 1059 yards.

with all his receptions 2,118 yards..

If you do some math.. he averages 1 TD per 113.77 yards...

thats an additional 18 TD's.

Except football doesn't work that way. At all.

Sniper
10-10-2008, 12:03 AM
Yeah, because he's really not gonna try to get an extra yard to win the game. Real possibility. Bring something real to the table or GTFO.

What has Harrison ever shown to lead me to believe he'll go for the yard? Because he certainly hasn't shown he'll take a hit to make a play. Sorry I like players that don't puss out when they cross the middle.

awfullyquiet
10-10-2008, 12:18 AM
Except he gets a boatload of first downs already. More than most guys who get all the YAC. I'd rather have a guy run a 10-yard out and then go out of bounds with a first, than have my receiver catch a screen pass at the LOS and then break a tackle and get 8 yards for 3rd and 2.

Plus, he is frail. Look at him. He tries to be like Brandon Marshall, he's gonna miss time, period.

Exactly my thought. And as i pointed out earlier, over the past 4 years, NO RECEIVER has as many first downs as this man.

Yeah, because he's really not gonna try to get an extra yard to win the game. Real possibility. Bring something real to the table or GTFO.

Part two of sharing my sentiment... Marvin Harrison... hell. If you play at the NFL level and your name is not Cedric Benson... you will push the pile with all your might if it means winning the game vs losing the game. Basically, you're saying marvin harrison is a quitter. He gives up. He doesn't give it his all.

Tell me. How would you improve on his stats? His receptions. His yardage. His Yard PER Reception. Sure his YAC may be lacking... but. Why the hell would you make the greatest possession receiver in the past 10 years do something he's not? Are you honestly going to play him like Q Boldin? Chad Johnson? TO? No. He's a wide receiver more in the mold of lynn swann, graceful, route running acrobat.


Except football doesn't work that way. At all.(regarding adding 1-2 ypc)

No kidding. Every running back would love to push the pile an extra yard or two. I don't think they're giving their total effort.
Corners have gotten bigger. Safeties have gotten bigger (and no ****, people shaded safeties to his side), by the time he got the ball, he normally had not one. but two people in his neighborhood ready to level him. tell me. if you have your choice of gaining one yard walking out of bounds or two going inside when you already have the first down. what would you do?

awfullyquiet
10-10-2008, 12:20 AM
What has Harrison ever shown to lead me to believe he'll go for the yard? Because he certainly hasn't shown he'll take a hit to make a play. Sorry I like players that don't puss out when they cross the middle.

But you haven't made any logical statement on WHY HE HAS TO GO UP THE MIDDLE.

He doesn't. If he can beat you on the sidelines that makes the running game more effective. It's why you have tight ends. Ben Utech. Dallas Clark to run up the middle when harrison (or wayne) is on the outside stretching the safeties wider than normal. And then that opens up the middle for Edge. (if we're talking a few years back, or even in the 2006 season)...

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2008, 01:34 AM
What has Harrison ever shown to lead me to believe he'll go for the yard? Because he certainly hasn't shown he'll take a hit to make a play. Sorry I like players that don't puss out when they cross the middle.

Well I haven't seen anything that tells me that one of the best receivers of our era and possibly all time would rather lose a game than take a hit. Think about what you're saying, for one minute. He's taken hits, you've admitted as much in this thread. So suggesting he wouldn't take a hit TO WIN A GAME is absolutely, 100% HORSE****. Besides, he'd probably just run a route that was, you know, past the first down marker. What he's done all his career: the smart thing. But I guess he isn't that good cuz he doesn't go caveman and bust through everyone in his path, and beat his chest like a gorilla.

Smokey Joe
10-10-2008, 07:00 AM
They should quit their bitching, and if I was their d-line coach, I'd punch them in the face. Offensive linemen hold on every single ******* play, and if they just realized this now, then they shouldn't be playing. ******* crybabies.

Geo
10-10-2008, 09:30 AM
Strange as it may be to hear, the Colts' defensive linemen actually didn't write that article in either a group or individual effort.

One of the writers of the paper continually saw uncalled holding, until he finally wrote a piece about it.

Sniper
10-10-2008, 01:09 PM
Well I haven't seen anything that tells me that one of the best receivers of our era and possibly all time would rather lose a game than take a hit. Think about what you're saying, for one minute. He's taken hits, you've admitted as much in this thread. So suggesting he wouldn't take a hit TO WIN A GAME is absolutely, 100% HORSE****. Besides, he'd probably just run a route that was, you know, past the first down marker. What he's done all his career: the smart thing. But I guess he isn't that good cuz he doesn't go caveman and bust through everyone in his path, and beat his chest like a gorilla.

Trying to remember the last time Terrell Owens, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin etc... beat their chests like gorillas after a big catch.

awfullyquiet
10-10-2008, 01:12 PM
Trying to remember the last time Terrell Owens, Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin etc... beat their chests like gorillas after a big catch.

TO. Two weeks ago against the skins.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2008, 01:40 PM
Haha. Anyway, it's called a hyperbole. I like how you dodged the point of my post because you knew you got beat. Again, bring something real to the table or...

http://weng.ikm04.dk/pic/gtfo.jpg

Sniper
10-10-2008, 01:44 PM
Haha. Anyway, it's called a hyperbole. I like how you dodged the point of my post because you knew you got beat. Again, bring something real to the table or...

http://weng.ikm04.dk/pic/gtfo.jpg

Because I'm not going to convince you either way. You like receivers who play like vaginas, fine, whatever. I don't. We're not going to convince each other. It's not happening. There's a reason why pretty much any decent receiver in the league has a higher YPC and YAC than Marvin, excuses be damned.

awfullyquiet
10-10-2008, 01:49 PM
Because I'm not going to convince you either way. You like receivers who play like vaginas, fine, whatever. I don't. We're not going to convince each other. It's not happening. There's a reason why pretty much any decent receiver in the league has a higher YPC and YAC than Marvin, excuses be damned.

But you're trying to convince not only popular logic, but sane reasoning that playing like a 'vagina' makes you somehow worse of a WR.

Which is wrong. If you say Harrison plays like a wimp. Sure. That's fine. But if you think he's not absolutely productive while being a wimp (which is what i think you're trying to convince us of... saying he gets no YAC or YPC... therefore he's not that good, average receivers have more than him. obviously...), you're absolutely off your rocker.

Sniper
10-10-2008, 01:52 PM
But you're trying to convince not only popular logic, but sane reasoning that playing like a 'vagina' makes you somehow worse of a WR.

Which is wrong. If you say Harrison plays like a wimp. Sure. That's fine. But if you think he's not absolutely productive while being a wimp (which is what i think you're trying to convince us of... saying he gets no YAC or YPC... therefore he's not that good, average receivers have more than him. obviously...), you're absolutely off your rocker.

I don't recall ever questioning his ability. His toughness? Yes, of course. He is afraid to go over the middle and he's afraid to even attempt to break tackles.

awfullyquiet
10-10-2008, 02:03 PM
I don't recall ever questioning his ability. His toughness? Yes, of course. He is afraid to go over the middle and he's afraid to even attempt to break tackles.

And does that make him a bad receiver?

Yes or No.

Sniper
10-10-2008, 02:16 PM
And does that make him a bad receiver?

Yes or No.

It hinders how great he could be. Why settle for very good when you could be the best?

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 02:19 PM
Wait, how do you know he is afraid? did u talk to him?

awfullyquiet
10-10-2008, 02:19 PM
It hinders how great he could be. Why settle for very good when you could be the best?

Name five receivers in the modern era better than marvin harrison...

edit: bonus points: name five receivers more productive than marvin harrison.

Sniper
10-10-2008, 02:42 PM
Name five receivers in the modern era better than marvin harrison...

edit: bonus points: name five receivers more productive than marvin harrison.

Randy Moss, Michael Irvin, Cris Carter, Terrell Owens are four I'd put ahead off the top of my head.

nfrillman
10-10-2008, 04:21 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing the insane number of non-holding calls. Every week I watch the games with a buddy of mine and it seems like at least 2 or 3 times a game one of us is like, "Did you see that holding!?! Holy crap!" Then we will rewind it and it's freakin blatant. Offensive linemen are tackling guys from behind, especially on the interior. Nothing pisses me off more than horrendous officiating, and the NFL is getting pretty god-awful.

ChezPower4
10-10-2008, 05:06 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one noticing the insane number of non-holding calls. Every week I watch the games with a buddy of mine and it seems like at least 2 or 3 times a game one of us is like, "Did you see that holding!?! Holy crap!" Then we will rewind it and it's freakin blatant. Offensive linemen are tackling guys from behind, especially on the interior. Nothing pisses me off more than horrendous officiating, and the NFL is getting pretty god-awful.

Try making a drinking game of it. :D

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 05:08 PM
Try making a drinking game of it. :D

Ha, my liver wants to make it past Week 10.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
10-10-2008, 05:32 PM
Because I'm not going to convince you either way. You like receivers who play like vaginas, fine, whatever. I don't. We're not going to convince each other. It's not happening. There's a reason why pretty much any decent receiver in the league has a higher YPC and YAC than Marvin, excuses be damned.

There's a reason why every receiver in the league has less first downs than Marvin over the past few years, too.

Gay Ork Wang
10-10-2008, 05:35 PM
Ha, my liver wants to make it past Week 10.
you mean week 8?

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 05:38 PM
you mean week 8?

depends on how many games I get to watch.

Need to stock up on some Tequila and Vodka.. going to need about 3-4 Half Gallons to make it to week 10.

ChezPower4
10-10-2008, 05:46 PM
depends on how many games I get to watch.

Need to stock up on some Tequila and Vodka.. going to need about 3-4 Half Gallons to make it to week 10.

thats a hell of mix you got going on

Mr. Stiller
10-10-2008, 05:51 PM
thats a hell of mix you got going on

If I'm doing 1 shot per bad call or non-called serious hold... I'm going to need to drink a lot.

awfullyquiet
10-11-2008, 10:41 AM
Randy Moss, Michael Irvin, Cris Carter, Terrell Owens are four I'd put ahead off the top of my head.

Are all four of those 'complete' receivers?

Hell no.

Besides, the first you list.. Randy Moss doesn't get much YAC... 3.9 over his career. Marvin Harrison? 3.3... Marvin statistically beats him though, and that's WHEN he had reggie wayne as well... He's beat people with great speed and route running...

And this list is a joke because you don't have jerry rice. That is pretty much killing all credentials in my book.

Sniper
10-11-2008, 11:17 AM
Are all four of those 'complete' receivers?

Hell no.

Besides, the first you list.. Randy Moss doesn't get much YAC... 3.9 over his career. Marvin Harrison? 3.3... Marvin statistically beats him though, and that's WHEN he had reggie wayne as well... He's beat people with great speed and route running...

And this list is a joke because you don't have jerry rice. That is pretty much killing all credentials in my book.

I didn't know how modern you wanted.

BlindSite
10-11-2008, 07:53 PM
The biggest props for Marvin Harrison for me is that a couple years ago when Moss and Owens and Marvin were all at their peak ESPN did an interview with corner backs and easily 70% of them asked said he was the hardest receiver to cover in the NFL. That means a lot more to me than stats ever can.