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summond822
10-12-2008, 07:55 PM
To create a thread about the Seahawks needs in this upcoming draft. Enough time has passed that I think we are able to get a clear picture of what is wrong with this team. This is also a way for me to alleviate my depression over the offenses inability to score and the defenses inability to stop people in crucial situations.

I'm going to list the positions that I think we need the help at most and then the player that I believe is the best fit for the Seahawks.

So, lets start off with the position I think we need the most help at, and it might be a shocker.




1) Cornerback - Malcolm Jenkins, Ohio State
I don't believe that Kelly Jennings or Josh Wilson are the answers at cornerback. They are simply not good enough IMO to cover other teams wide receivers every play. For one, they are short. Two, they give up way too many big plays. Wilson is better suited for playing the nickelback and Jennings is probably at best a situational guy. Neither is a ballhawk, which is something this defense has been lacking for a while now.

That said, if we can't get an elite talent like Malcolm Jenkins, this is probably not a wise pick even if it is the place where an upgrade is the most needed.

2) Wide Receiver - Jeremy Maclin, Missouri
Watching this last game against Green Bay made me realize something...none of our wide receivers are gamebreakers. Of course, I already knew that outside of Nate Burleson no one else is a threat to score on every play, but still. It's not that they aren't good WR's, it just that they cannot get any seperation and they just aren't threats to score.

A guy like Maclin is a gamebreaker and it is hard to imagine another WR in the country who is more explosive. He is something this offense has been lacking since Shaun Alexander in 05. We get a guy like Maclin it takes this offense to a whole other level.

3) Offensive Line - Eugene Monroe, OT, Virginia or Duke Robinson, OG, Oklahoma
Monroe is my favorite OT and if we get him as the future successor to Walter Jones it would go a long ways in my book of securing this team's success in the future. We never know when Jones is gonna retire or get injured and not be able to come back from it so getting Monroe as a contingency plan seems like a smart move in my book.

Duke Robinson is the other guy I list because I don't know how long Wahle is going to be around and he is certainly not Stever Hutchison. Duke Robinson is super talented and if we got him it would be a great move, even if he doesn't play as a rookie. I am actually more concerned about Wahle than Jones because I don't think Wahle will last as long.

4) Defensive End - Brain Orakpo, Texas
Why defensive end? Didn't we just draft Lawrence Jackson? Yes we did, but I put defensive end here because our defense is getting no pressure on teams not named San Francisco. Kerney is the only guy I even expect to get pressure on the quarterback anymore and he is not going to get there every play no matter how much I yell at my TV set to pressure the quarterback. Lawrence Jackson seems to be good against the run, but I haven't seen him sack the quarterback this year and I honestly don't expect him to be able to get there.

I put Orakpo there because he is insanely good at getting to the quarterback. He also seems to apply pressure at critical moments which is something our defense has been unable to do. He also leaps out at you when you watch him play. He makes play after play. Jackson may be a better all around end than Orakpo, but this guy is a master at what he does and that is get to the quarterback. Also, he could line up at linebacker and you could move him around much like the Giants do with Justin Tuck. It would likely give opposing offenses fits because they'd have to gameplan for someone like Orakpo.

5) Running Back - Knowshon Moreno, Georgia or Javon Ringer, Michigan State
Knowshon Moreno is my favorite runner and should he come out I can honestly see him going in front of Beanie Wells. He has all the tools you look for and he runs hard. It may be unfair to Julius Jones, but Moreno is a gamebreaking back, unfortunately Jones is not in his league as far as potential goes.

Ringer is a really good back and he is proving this year that he can carry the ball 20+ times a game. He seems like the type of guy who can be a workhorse in the league. I really like his style of running. He is more of a personal favorite, and even if they do draft him I don't see him unseating Jones as the starter.

I put this here because Morris and Duckett are not very good back-ups in my opinion. Morris and Jones are essentially the same back with Morris being a slightly better receiver and Jones running much harder. The need of a guy to be totally different from Jones might lead to a pick like C.J. Spiller, who has speed to kill. I personally don't like Spiller but if we used him like Dallas uses Felix Jones I would be okay with it.

6) Outside Linebacker - Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
I put this one here mostly as a result of my fear that Leroy Hill is leaving after this season. It is way down here because he hasn't actually left yet, but if he does, this position in results of need would sky rocket to the top. A guy like Curry would hopefully be able to fill the void that would be left by a player like Leroy Hill.


Now that those are listed I think that I'll list the players in the order that I would place an emphasis on picking them at the moment based on Seattle's need and their own skill sets.

1. Malcolm Jenkins
2. Jeremy Maclin
3. Eugene Monroe
4. Knowshon Moreno
5. Duke Robinson
6. Brian Orakpo
7. Aaron Curry
8. Javon Ringer

Honorable Mention:
William Moore, Taylor Mays, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Micheal Crabtree, Chris "Beanie" Wells, George Selvie

jballa838
10-25-2008, 01:03 PM
Do we need a QB?

Brent
10-25-2008, 07:55 PM
Do we need a QB?
Hasselbeck isnt getting younger and Wallace/Frye arent the answer there. I think you guys might want to consider it... or hold out for Jake Locker.

Babylon
10-26-2008, 11:08 PM
Do we need a QB?


I think we do but doubt management would think that is the way to go in the first round. I wouldnt be adverse to taking a chance on a Rhett Bomar in round 3 or so.

Menardo75
10-28-2008, 12:11 AM
Possibly WR depending on how the injurys go. I would probably say corner though as your biggest need.

jballa838
12-08-2008, 06:55 PM
From what I am hearing from "sources", Jenkins is on top of our BB.

sbh15
12-08-2008, 06:57 PM
I don't know how you guys would possibly go Maclin over Crabtree. Crabtree is the ideal West Coast Offense wide receiver. Terrific frame, hands, and run after the catch ability.

OneToughGame
12-09-2008, 12:38 AM
From what I am hearing from "sources", Jenkins is on top of our BB.

Jenkins or Crabtree in the first round and I'm happy.

Geo
12-10-2008, 06:28 PM
Definitely have a 2009 Draft thread to discuss and throw ideas around.

Hope you don't mind, I changed the title to make it official.

summond822
12-12-2008, 01:20 PM
Geo: Thanks for the change, why would we mind?

sbh15: When I made this thread and posted my preferences it was way back in October when it actually looked like Maclin might turn out to be a Top 10 pick. I still have serious questions about Crabtree's YAC ability (mainly his speed) but now he would definately be in front of Maclin as my preferred pick.

As for Jenkins at the top of our draft board, I would be ecstatic. I would also be happy with Crabtree. But honestly, I wouldn't be that upset if they were both off of the board and we ended up getting Eugene Monroe or Michael Oher. I would rather have a quiet, reliable LT who is going to play for 8+ years than take a WR/CB that is going to draw attention to themselves like crazy. (Not saying that Crabtree or Jenkins would but WR's and CB's are generally the drama queens of the NFL, while OT generally aren't)

Edit: Also, we can't forget that Leroy Hill is likely not going to resign with the Seahawks so an OLB would be a good idea if not in the 1st round then definately on day 1.

summond822
12-14-2008, 11:49 AM
I was looking at a mock draft and CJSchneider (sorry if I got this wrong), was talking about the Saints trading down. It made me remember Ruskell's draft philosophy "trade down in the first, get extra picks, trade up in the second to get someone, etc."

Well this year...we may not be able to trade down. I am sure that Ruskell will try to, but I am not sure if there will be any suitors. I would like to see them trade down but hopefully stay in the Top 10 and get Eugene Monroe. Walter Jones went on the IR this week, and he has been getting nicked up for the last couple of years. He has also lost a step. Drafting Monroe gives us a safety net for next year, and then he can step in when Jones does retire, which I actually see happening in the next 2-3 years.

As much as I love Jenkins, I think that Monroe would be a better long-term pick. Crabtree I am a little leery of. Not so much because of his ability, but because I just don't like the idea of taking WR's (or RB's) in the first round...

jballa838
12-15-2008, 08:56 PM
I agree Summond. But who knows.

OneToughGame
01-05-2009, 10:39 PM
Through the first 4 rounds here's who I'd want. Curious of who you guys would want.

1: Malcolm Jenkins
2: Patrick Chung
3: Marcus Freeman (if Hill leaves) Alex Boone (if hill stays.)
4: Jarrett Dillard (I think he'll be gone by then though :( )

summond822
01-06-2009, 03:33 PM
Through the first 4 rounds here's who I'd want. Curious of who you guys would want.

1: Malcolm Jenkins
2: Patrick Chung
3: Marcus Freeman (if Hill leaves) Alex Boone (if hill stays.)
4: Jarrett Dillard (I think he'll be gone by then though :( )

Through the first 3 I'd go

1. Malcolm Jenkins/Taylor Mays
2. Percy Harvin/Derrick Williams/Clint Sintim (assuming that Hill leaves)
3. Marcus Freeman or a pass rushing DE.

OneToughGame
01-06-2009, 05:15 PM
Through the first 3 I'd go

1. Malcolm Jenkins/Taylor Mays
2. Percy Harvin/Derrick Williams/Clint Sintim (assuming that Hill leaves)
3. Marcus Freeman or a pass rushing DE.

Don't know why you'd want Williams. His hands are terrible and the Seahawks already drop enough passess lol.

summond822
01-07-2009, 02:58 PM
Don't know why you'd want Williams. His hands are terrible and the Seahawks already drop enough passess lol.

Big play ability. Only reason that I have him listed. If we don't get Harvin then I would much rather wait until later on in the draft and take a taller WR as another redzone target. That kid from Cal-Poly (Ramses Bardin?) or Aaron Kelly (Clemson) immediately come to mind.

Edit: The same thing could be said about Chung. I like Chung a lot, but I have questions about the scheme he is coming out of. Another thing is how good of a cover safety is he (and don't show me his interception stats, I am talking about normal covering skills)?

OneToughGame
01-08-2009, 08:12 AM
Big play ability. Only reason that I have him listed. If we don't get Harvin then I would much rather wait until later on in the draft and take a taller WR as another redzone target. That kid from Cal-Poly (Ramses Bardin?) or Aaron Kelly (Clemson) immediately come to mind.

Edit: The same thing could be said about Chung. I like Chung a lot, but I have questions about the scheme he is coming out of. Another thing is how good of a cover safety is he (and don't show me his interception stats, I am talking about normal covering skills)?

I just really want Dillard here. I've loved this kid the past 2 seasons. He isn't going to run a 4.3 maybe not even a low 4.4 but he does have GREAT hands and he runs very good routes. Plus, he has a 40+ inch vertical leap.

jballa838
01-08-2009, 06:14 PM
I just really want Dillard here. I've loved this kid the past 2 seasons. He isn't going to run a 4.3 maybe not even a low 4.4 but he does have GREAT hands and he runs very good routes. Plus, he has a 40+ inch vertical leap.
I love his work ethic too.

summond822
01-09-2009, 12:36 AM
I was just thinking...if (somehow) Knowshon Moreno fell to the Seahawks in round two...do we take him with the 36th pick?

I'm thinking yes. Wonder what you guys think.

OneToughGame
01-09-2009, 01:32 AM
I was just thinking...if (somehow) Knowshon Moreno fell to the Seahawks in round two...do we take him with the 36th pick?

I'm thinking yes. Wonder what you guys think.

I hope not, I like Moreno but we already have enough money tied up into RB right now. I say give Jones a full season and see how he does.

jballa838
01-09-2009, 06:33 PM
if moreno is there, I would most likely take him depending on the draft board. But I'd need to see a nice combine first.

Geo
01-09-2009, 07:00 PM
You'd have to take Moreno in the 2nd round, have to. Even if a WR like Hakeem Nicks is there, you can't turn in the card with Moreno's name on it fast enough.

Although for Moreno to fall that far, I wouldn't count on it. But a pretty good RB could be there for the Seahawks in early Round 2 or Round 3.

Btw, as much as I think Crabtree could help the Hawks, I'm thinking more that the team goes elsewhere at the 4th overall pick (Jenkins, Bradford, LT) and then takes a WR in the 2nd (maybe 3rd) round. The aforementioed Nicks might be perfect.

summond822
01-09-2009, 08:57 PM
You'd have to take Moreno in the 2nd round, have to. Even if a WR like Hakeem Nicks is there, you can't turn in the card with Moreno's name on it fast enough.

Although for Moreno to fall that far, I wouldn't count on it. But a pretty good RB could be there for the Seahawks in early Round 2 or Round 3.

Btw, as much as I think Crabtree could help the Hawks, I'm thinking more that the team goes elsewhere at the 4th overall pick (Jenkins, Bradford, LT) and then takes a WR in the 2nd (maybe 3rd) round. The aforementioed Nicks might be perfect.

Any running back not named Moreno, I see us passing on in the second OTG, but if Moreno is there...I think that he is way too good to pass up, and a potential franchise running back. We might take a Donald Brown in the third...

I agree with you 100% on what your saying about Crabtree Geo. I just can't see Ruskell taking a WR top 10, especially with his "draft safe" philosophy (at least on the offensive side). I would honestly rather see him take a defensive player like Jenkins or Mays than Bradford. Although a LT would definately be nice, but Ruskell probably thinks he can find good offensive linemen later on in the draft. It was in a newspaper article I read when he was commenting on where they could go with the pick.

jballa838
01-09-2009, 09:31 PM
I really do hope we go mays or Jenkins. Both those are a step in the right direction.

summond822
01-10-2009, 08:35 PM
I really do hope we go mays or Jenkins. Both those are a step in the right direction.

I am starting to really, really like the Mays pick. I am almost to the point where I would say that we take him at 4.

Mays may never be a ball hawk, but we truly just need someone to stop the deep ball for us. Deon Grant and Brian Russel aren't doing that. I think that Mays could replace Russel immediately.

jballa838
01-10-2009, 08:41 PM
I think Safeties are key to stopping Vertical Passing teams, which more and more teams are becoming. Us Running a Tampa 2, we would have 1/2 of the field locked down, and Jenkins seems less logical in a T2 scheme.

summond822
01-11-2009, 02:21 PM
USC runs a Cover 1 I believe, meaning that Mays was generally the only player responsible for the deep ball right? With the Tampa 2, I believe that Mays' interception numbers would probably be a lot better than his college career.

Who knows, he may end up being another Ed Reed if he only has to worry about half the field.

That said, do you think that Mays could also be an enforcer like Dawkins?

Also, thinking about the second round. I am a big fan of taking Percy Harvin with our pick in the second round. Hakeem Nicks is also tempting, but I kinda view Percy Harvin like I do Steve Smith, and getting a player like that would be a huge boost to our offense.

I know that some people don't like the Harvin pick, but I see us taking a WR in this draft. We don't necessarily need someone like Brandon Gibson (who I have been enthralled with for a long time even though I am a Husky fan.), but I would like to see us taking a small, explosive receiver or a big redzone target (Aaron Kelly or Ramses Bardin immediately come to mind). I don't think there are any big WR's worth taking that early (2nd) in the draft, but if they pass on a player like Harvin there, then taking one of the bigger WR's in rounds 3-6 is a possibility I would be happy with.

One last thing, what about the LS situation. Do you see us taking another LS in the draft, or do they hope that the LS they took last year ends up getting over his bad back and being a consistent main-stay for years to come. I don't necessarily see them taking one, but perhaps bringing one in as a UDFA and hoping that he sticks.

jballa838
01-11-2009, 02:42 PM
I hope we draft a longsnapper again. I was so pumped.

summond822
01-11-2009, 03:09 PM
I hope we draft a longsnapper again. I was so pumped.

I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not...

Anyways, it was the one pick that I actually agreed with at the time.

In hindsight, Carlson was a great pick. Coutu was and still is a waste of a draft pick and roster spot. Forsett should have been our starting RB (seriously). Bryant got hurt. Schmitt is only ever used in situations where they put in both FB's...and is likely not going to be our future FB unless Leonard Weaver (who I think is the hardest runner on the team) leaves or is traded.

Not a good showing from the rookie class for the Seahawks.

jballa838
01-11-2009, 03:18 PM
I can't tell if your being sarcastic or not...

Anyways, it was the one pick that I actually agreed with at the time.

In hindsight, Carlson was a great pick. Coutu was and still is a waste of a draft pick and roster spot. Forsett should have been our starting RB (seriously). Bryant got hurt. Schmitt is only ever used in situations where they put in both FB's...and is likely not going to be our future FB unless Leonard Weaver (who I think is the hardest runner on the team) leaves or is traded.

Not a good showing from the rookie class for the Seahawks.
Oh I was. I saw LS come up and was straight dancing. oh and when we pick Coutu. Man I was pumped. Alright, I am being sarcastic. I liked the Schmitt pick because I love the guys attitude, and hated most of the other ones. Forsett is a beast and I agree there. Ruskell sucks though. I hope we have a better draft this year.

summond822
01-11-2009, 06:47 PM
Oh I was. I saw LS come up and was straight dancing. oh and when we pick Coutu. Man I was pumped. Alright, I am being sarcastic. I liked the Schmitt pick because I love the guys attitude, and hated most of the other ones. Forsett is a beast and I agree there. Ruskell sucks though. I hope we have a better draft this year.

Not always easy to detect sarcasm in text.

I do have an idea for the upcoming draft. The Seahawks bring in Holmgren as an advisor saying that he forgot something up in Seattle to make his wife less suspicious. Then Holmgren and Ruskell proceed to alternating picks, with Ruskell selecting defensive players and Holmgren selecting offensive players. We might actually have a chance of getting a good offensive rookie class this year.

jballa838
01-11-2009, 06:51 PM
I still dont think we will draft a solid offensive skill player. We haven't yet, besides Shaun(ugh).

summond822
01-11-2009, 07:17 PM
Guess we better hope for Knowshon Moreno to fall through round 1 and hope that he will finally be the replacement to Shaun. Though with our luck he probably busts big time if we get him...

If Korean Robinson pans out does that count? Or does he not count because he was before Ruskell's time?

summond822
01-14-2009, 03:51 PM
Well, with McCoy, Moreno, Wells, and Green all declaring, it looks like we will at least have a shot at drafting one of those 4 in the second.

Operating under the assumption that they don't bring back Morris (for some reason), which one pairs up the best with Jones, and which one do you think that the Seahawks should take?

Personally, I would like to see them take Moreno, but McCoy wouldn't be a bad consolation prize at all. Or who knows...maybe they go off and choose Spiller trying to get a Brian Westbrook or Chris Johnson type of player.

Still holding out for Harvin though...

jballa838
01-14-2009, 05:44 PM
I think Harvin is a WR at the next level. And I like Shady McCoy more than NOSHOW Moreno. as you can tell, I really dont like him.

summond822
01-14-2009, 08:22 PM
I think that they do end up taking a WR in this draft, I just don't see it being Michael Crabtree. I agree that Harvin is a WR, but I just see him as such a big play threat that he would be a bigger help than Michael Crabtree. You can't teach speed like you can route running and hands. That's why I like Harvin so much. Ramses Bardin and Aaron Kelly are my other two favorite WR's. Big guys who aren't going to do much downfield, but they can really open up the playbook inside the 20 since they are both over 6'5.

I really wouldn't be adverse to any of those backs, except perhaps Green. Him and Brown just remind me of someone who isn't going to be very productive at the pro level. I don't know what it is, maybe it's their running style IDK.

Shady is probably at the top of my list, he has some big play potential, and he comes from Pitt. I don't know what it is about that college but they put out some tough (mental and physical) prospects.

Babylon
01-15-2009, 02:10 PM
How much time do they spend debating Mark Sanchez?. If they return to being a good team as everyone thinks they may not have a shot a good QB for years.

summond822
01-15-2009, 03:44 PM
How much time do they spend debating Mark Sanchez?. If they return to being a good team as everyone thinks they may not have a shot a good QB for years.

I think they spend quite a bit of time deciding between where to put Sanchez on their big board. If they ultimately evaluate him as the third or fourth best player in the draft, and the people ahead of him are gone, they probably spring for him. However, they may also try to trade down because the majority of the teams in top 10 don't need QB's so they may be able to take Sanchez much lower than number 4.

Cincy has Palmer, Cleveland has Quinn, Oakland has Russel. They could trade down to at least 8 before they pulled the trigger on him. And doing that they would save a ton of money.

jballa838
01-15-2009, 05:19 PM
I hope we dont go Sanchez. I really dont like these prospects at the top of this class at QB.

summond822
01-15-2009, 06:30 PM
Same here. Jenkins or Orakpo are my first choices. Then it would be Eugene Monroe/Andre Smith. Then trading down and taking someone else is my final (and the most likely) resort.

Can you imagine the pass rush if we had Kerney and Orakpo on opposite sides? We wouldn't even need to blitz most of the time.

BamaFalcon59
01-16-2009, 10:22 AM
Why would you guys draft Orakpo with Lawrence Jackson, Patrick Kerney, and Darryl Tapp on the roster at defensive end?

And is Malcolm Jenkins an actual possibility?

summond822
01-16-2009, 01:48 PM
Why would you guys draft Orakpo with Lawrence Jackson, Patrick Kerney, and Darryl Tapp on the roster at defensive end?

And is Malcolm Jenkins an actual possibility?

We would draft Orakpo if we thought that Jackson wasn't going to be a pass rusher, which I dont think he ever will be. Jackson is more of a run stopping end, but I don't believe that he is going to get to the QB with any regularity. Tapp is exclusively a pass rusher. Kerney is the only complete DE we have. Add in the fact that it would improve the defensive line rotation and it could be a feasible pick.

Do I actually see Seattle taking Orakpo? No. They won't give up on Jackson after one season. They won't go QB, and I just can't see Mora and Ruskell taking Michael Crabtree. So, the only options are to take Malcolm Jenkins or take an OT. If they decided to take an OT they would likely trade down.

One draft day scenario I see is Cleveland trading to 3 to make sure Seattle doesn't get Malcolm Jenkins and then Seattle trading out of the top 10. Then the financial burden of taking one of the top OT's or Mark Sanchez is nowhere near as big as it would be if they had selected them at number 4.

BamaFalcon59
01-16-2009, 01:59 PM
We would draft Orakpo if we thought that Jackson wasn't going to be a pass rusher, which I dont think he ever will be. Jackson is more of a run stopping end, but I don't believe that he is going to get to the QB with any regularity. Tapp is exclusively a pass rusher. Kerney is the only complete DE we have. Add in the fact that it would improve the defensive line rotation and it could be a feasible pick.

Do I actually see Seattle taking Orakpo? No. They won't give up on Jackson after one season. They won't go QB, and I just can't see Mora and Ruskell taking Michael Crabtree. So, the only options are to take Malcolm Jenkins or take an OT. If they decided to take an OT they would likely trade down.

One draft day scenario I see is Cleveland trading to 3 to make sure Seattle doesn't get Malcolm Jenkins and then Seattle trading out of the top 10. Then the financial burden of taking one of the top OT's or Mark Sanchez is nowhere near as big as it would be if they had selected them at number 4.


Remember, Mora selected two first round receivers while in Atlanta, those being Michael Jenkins and Roddy White. Knapp was the offensive coordinator, and Ruskell was on the staff when we took Jenkins and when we scouted Roddy.

summond822
01-16-2009, 03:28 PM
Remember, Mora selected two first round receivers while in Atlanta, those being Michael Jenkins and Roddy White. Knapp was the offensive coordinator, and Ruskell was on the staff when we took Jenkins and when we scouted Roddy.

The difference is where they were picking. It's different when you are selecting in the middle/later parts of round 1 and the top 5. Mora wasn't taking those guys top 5. A top 5 pick has to be a solid pick or it sets your franchise back years. I don't think that Crabtree is that player. I don't think the Seahawks will take Crabtree at 4. If they trade down, they may take him, but until they do, I don't think they take Crabtree. Especially if they believe they have a shot at Percy Harvin in the second. IMO Jenkins/Harvin>>>>>>Crabtree/Chung or some other defensive player

Unless the Seahawks go out and spend huge money in FA on defense, then I think that this first pick goes to fix a horrible defense. There are excuses about why the passing game was so horrible this year. There are no excuses for why the defense was so bad.

Hawkeye
01-18-2009, 02:28 PM
What do you think about Seattle taking a RB with there 2nd rd pick. I think there will be a very good one with LeSean McCoy or Shonn Greene there. And if one of them are there I think they should take one.

summond822
01-18-2009, 03:31 PM
What do you think about Seattle taking a RB with there 2nd rd pick. I think there will be a very good one with LeSean McCoy or Shonn Greene there. And if one of them are there I think they should take one.

McCoy I would love to see them take if he's there, and thats a big if. Shonn Greene...I'm not really a fan of his so I can't say I would be happy taking him there unless we had gone defense in the first round.

Pretty much they have to go defense with at least one of their picks on the first day. So ultimately I see them maneuvering to acquire more picks so that Ruskell can play around with his "money round" which is what I call the second round for the Seahawks and Ruskell. Ruskell has convinced me that although the players he takes in the second aren't always going to be superb athletes, they will come in immediately and contribute, even ahead of more highly touted first round picks.

jballa838
01-18-2009, 05:25 PM
Does Ramses Barden fit the money round status?

summond822
01-18-2009, 05:35 PM
Maybe if they decide to trade back with their first pick and manage to pull another second and have room to move around, perhaps into the later part of the second round. The bigger question about Barden isn't whether or not he fits that profile, but if the Seahawks even consider him.

We all know Ruskell rarely, if ever, takes small school prospects. All because he likes to see the players he pick perform and compete against top teir competition.

Other than a S, I don't really see anyone else coming in immediately and playing. Maybe David Bruton could be a fit there. Ron Brace perhaps?

EDIT: There are a few things we know about how Ruskell drafts.
1. He loves to trade down in the first and acquire more picks, as well as take the player that they have targeted.

This year he may not be able to trade down.

2. He loves to trade up in the second and go after players that he has targeted.

With such a high pick this year we may be seeing him trying to trade back into round 1.

3. He tries to add at least 1 offensive and 1 defensive lineman in each draft.

This is absolutely necessary this year.

4. He really doesn't care what the public thinks about his picks. He isn't afraid to go grab the player that no one expects (Lawrence Jackson...........).

So perhaps we should be saying good-bye to any wishful thinkings about who we are all wanting them to draft.

jballa838
01-18-2009, 05:42 PM
Chung I hope drops and he'd contribute immediately. But if we do go WR, how do you rank these prospects for pick 36:
Brandon Lafell, Derrick Williams, Kenny Britt (Doubt he is here, but going off scott's rankings), Hakeem Nicks, Louis Murphy, and a wildcard.
mine looks like this:
Derrick Williams
Kenny Britt
Ramses Barden (wildcard)
Hakeem Nicks
Brandon Lafell
Louis Murphy

summond822
01-18-2009, 06:05 PM
Well, personally I would go:
Derrick Williams
Hakeem Nicks
Kenny Britt
Louis Murphy
Brandon Lafell
Jarret Dillard, Rice (wildcard).

However, I think we could get Dillard at the start of round 3. He's my pick for most impressive rookie WR next year.

Ruskell probably goes:
Louis Murphy
Kenny Britt
Derrick Williams
Brandon Lafell
Hakeem Nicks

summond822
01-18-2009, 06:10 PM
I don't like double posting...but since we're on how we are ordering people, who are your top 5 for the draft in general?

Mine would be:
1. Aaron Curry
2. Malcolm Jenkins
3. Eugene Monroe
4. Brian Orakpo
5. Matt Stafford

and my top 5 for the Seahawks would be:
1. Malcolm Jenkins
2. Jason Smith
3. Michael Crabtree
4. Matt Stafford
5. Eugene Monroe

jballa838
01-18-2009, 06:53 PM
my top 5 is:
Jenkins
Curry
Orakpo
Monroe
Maclin/Crabtree

my big board:
Jenkins
Curry
TRADE Down
Crabtree
Monroe

summond822
01-18-2009, 07:21 PM
I do have to agree with number 3 on that list being in the proper place. I do think that Jason Smith would be a better fit for us than Monroe though. He isn't quite as polished as Monroe is now, but he is athletic and a true LT. He should be a good fit in a ZBS that they are implementing as well.

Plus more early draft pick ---> more likely to find a stud skill player

Hawkeye
01-18-2009, 10:55 PM
I have no clue who the Seahawks will take at the #4 spot. I have been high on Eugene Monroe for a while now but now I like Jason Smith more than him but dont feel that he will be worth a top 5 pick. My dream scenario would be to trade back and take him. So if we cant trade back what do we do.

So if we are stuck at 4 are any of the OTs worth taking at that spot.

I dont see and dont want us to take Crabtree.

Im not sure we actually need to take Jenkins. We have obviously have Trufant. And last year (the 07 season) we allowed the fewest amount of passing TD. Jennings did look like he took a major step back this past season but I think with the new staff that they can fix his mistakes. Its mostly that he is not looking back for the ball. Plus Wilson IMO had a very good year for his 2nd year and only getting better.

I believe that we will get Hill back so I dont see Curry being taken.

Something that makes sense to me is a DE even tho we just took one last year. Kerney is getting old and will be coming back of an injury. Jackson is a good run stopping DE and not a very good pass rusher. Tapp is nothing more than a rotational player. So if we did draft a pass rusher like Orakpo we would be able to use him at what he does best and take him out on obvious running downs for Jackson. And would be able to use him like Atlanta does Abraham only playing maybe 50% off the plays and leading the leauge in sacks for DE. Plus its a great Def that wins playoff games. But is it smart to spend the #4 on a DE. I just dont know.

Who else is there. I just dont no anymore. You would figure picking #4 would be easy to decide but its a lot harder than I thought. Picking the 2nd round pick is so much easier. Maybe we do take Crabtree and its as easy as that.

summond822
01-19-2009, 12:06 AM
When Taylor Mays decided to go back to college the draft got a lot less interesting for Seattle fans. Everything you said is true, and I have ran through that over and over again.

Ultimately, if we stay at 4, we have to take Jenkins. He is the only player who even remotely fills a need and is worthy of that pick. I love Wilson, and I was impressed watching him improve all season long as he got more game time, but he can't go up against the Cardinal WR's. Ultimately, with Jenkins and Trufant we potentially have one of the best starting corner tandems in the league, much like Green Bay.

In order to justify any other player, outside of Curry, they have to trade back. When they go to look at bringing back Leroy Hill they have to decide if they want to keep a proven Pro Bowl caliber player, or do they want to go with an unproven rookie who is going to command big money. One thing we have to look at here is if Hill truly wants to come back. He is overshadowed by Tatupu and Peterson, and Hill is probably the most complete linebacker we have. They should have given Hill the extension, not Tatupu, IMO.

I just have trouble seeing them take Orakpo. Not with just taking another DE last year. Although I agree with what you said about Jackson, Ruskell won't give up on him this early. Jackson just didn't do much in any game. Orakpo would be much more valuable to the Seahawks than Jackson will ever be, since Orakpo at least can get to the QB. Jackson didn't do it well in college and I don't think he'll do it in the NFL.

Crabtree and Smith are both good fits for the Seahawks, but not at 4. They have to trade back to at least 10 before I would say that either one is worth the risk. Smith I could actually see them taking at 4, just because I think he fits everything they want to do so well and is a true LT, but it would shock many people and they could probably get him for less.

Crabtree is just like Rashard Mendenhall to me right now. An overrated player that is just being given to the Seahawks because people think that is where our biggest problem is. I would take Crabtree at 10 or later, but not at 4. He's not a Larry Fitzgerald or Calvin Johnson. Actually, if I had my way, Crabtree wouldn't even be a first round pick. He's not going to do much as a rookie, he doesn't run very sharp routes.

If they want to bring in a rookie WR that will make an impact right away, Jarret Dillard from Rice comes to mind. Route running is the most important thing in the NFL and he runs sharper routes than anyone else coming out this year + he has a 42" vertical, so it makes up for him being only 5'10". Or they could trade back into the first and grab Percy Harvin, who I think has much more upside than Crabtree but has major durability concerns.

jballa838
01-19-2009, 10:51 AM
I think we should pick Jenkins. I didnt see much preseason, but if Jordan Kent is as good as you say he is, why would we draft another speed WR?

summond822
01-19-2009, 01:53 PM
I think we should pick Jenkins. I didnt see much preseason, but if Jordan Kent is as good as you say he is, why would we draft another speed WR?

That's just my opinion about Kent. Kent has all of the measurables that one looks for in a WR. He has top line speed, size, and jumping ability. He's one of the fastest Seahawks on the team. The only reason he hasn't been given a chance is probably his route running. However, much like Fitzgerald, when the ball is in the air, he goes up and gets it.

This year or next we could be watching one of the top young WR's in the game if Kent develops and starts playing like he is capable of. Of course, the Seahawks may not feel like he is capable of being a starter in the NFL, for some reason.

Just for fun, I'll do a little Kent/Crabtree comparison.
(Crabtree/Kent)
Age: 21/25
Height: 6'3"/6'4"
Weight: 214/219
Draft Selection: Top 15/6th round pick 210
40: 4.55/ Can't find Kent's right now, my search browsers have been acting up, but he was an All-American sprinter @ Oregon.

Kent is taller and faster than Crabtree. He may not have the YAC ability, but he is a much better athlete all around. If he had played football all of his life instead of just a couple of years at Oregon, he would have likely been a 1st round pick. He was a three sport letterman at Oregon, which just attests to how freakish of an athlete he is.

jballa838
01-19-2009, 02:44 PM
I dont think we go Crabtree anymore. Jordan Kent may be the best kept secret in the NFL. I had no idea he was THAT athletic. wow.

jballa838
01-19-2009, 02:45 PM
oh and I did a search: 10.4 100 20.8 200. And he jumped 25 feet in the LJ. wow.

Hawkeye
01-19-2009, 03:35 PM
Im glad to hear that other Seahawks fans also dont want us taking Crabtree. I dont want him at 4 or at 10 if we traded down. I am tired of everyone giving us Crabtree in there Mocks. By hearing what you guys have to say if we stay at 4 Jenkins has to be the pick and if we trade down than Smith should be the pick. I think that should pretty much sum up our 1st round. So if we cant trade down and take Jenkins, what do we do in the 2nd round. I still want a RB but that would mean missing out on a good OT. Would you guys be satisfied with JJ TJ and JF as our 3 RBs next year? Our should we get one in the 2nd? If we dont take one in the 1st or 2nd we better not take one at all.

And about Jordan Kent. I was high on him at the beginning of the year but he needs I would say prob 2 years to develop if he is to breakout like you think he might. He definitely needs to improve route running. Im not sure what it is but really needs to improve and the deep route. Im not sure if the QB isnt throwing the ball accurate that far or if he just cant find his way under it. I dont think that he caught one deep bomb all year when he played and he def had his chances.

And where would Jarrett Dillard play, the slot? I have been hearing his name a lot lately about being a good WR to take.

summond822
01-19-2009, 03:38 PM
He has basketball hops too. He played basketball for the Ducks as well before he decided to focus on football. Course, his Dad is the Oregon basketball coach so... Anyways, he only played football his junior and senior years of college.

When I was watching the preseason games with my dad I was telling him that Kent is the fastest player on the Seahawks. He has the total package, all he ever needed was experience, and now that he has two years of that, we could be watching the emergence of a great WR this year.

I was honestly surprised that some other team didn't sign him when the Seahawks assigned him to the practice squad. I think at the end, they realized that their projects, Forsett and Kent, were too valuable to even be at risk to be signed by other teams.

Hawkeye
01-19-2009, 03:46 PM
In the past 3 years does taking a CB in round 1 and 2 make the case for not taking Jenkins? Or is he the only guy worth taking at that spot? I would rather take Stafford than Jenkins if he was still there. But I really dont see that happening.

summond822
01-19-2009, 03:50 PM
Im glad to hear that other Seahawks fans also dont want us taking Crabtree. I dont want him at 4 or at 10 if we traded down. I am tired of everyone giving us Crabtree in there Mocks. By hearing what you guys have to say if we stay at 4 Jenkins has to be the pick and if we trade down than Smith should be the pick. I think that should pretty much sum up our 1st round. So if we cant trade down and take Jenkins, what do we do in the 2nd round. I still want a RB but that would mean missing out on a good OT. Would you guys be satisfied with JJ TJ and JF as our 3 RBs next year? Our should we get one in the 2nd? If we dont take one in the 1st or 2nd we better not take one at all.

And about Jordan Kent. I was high on him at the beginning of the year but he needs I would say prob 2 years to develop if he is to breakout like you think he might. He definitely needs to improve route running. Im not sure what it is but really needs to improve and the deep route. Im not sure if the QB isnt throwing the ball accurate that far or if he just cant find his way under it. I dont think that he caught one deep bomb all year when he played and he def had his chances.

And where would Jarrett Dillard play, the slot? I have been hearing his name a lot lately about being a good WR to take.

Yeah, I have gotten to the point where I don't even comment on the Crabtree picks in mocks. Last year, I started a thread where I ranted about not wanting Rashard Mendenhall...I think I am nearing the point where I might do that with Crabtree...but it doesn't really do anything except get my feelings off my chest.

Honestly...unless Duke Robinson or Max Unger are there, I don't see the Seahawks going lineman in the second. There really are no LT prospect at that spot.

As for JJ, JF, & TJ as our running backs, I would be fine with that as long as Forsett actually got a chance to play. I didn't want Duckett on the roster at the beginning of the season, but his ability to regularly convert 3rd & 1 convinced me of his worth as the season went on. Jones can be the feature back, Forsett would be a great change of pace back. He can use his height to hide behind the lineman and is already through the line before the defense can find him. If Shady, Moreno, or Wells were there, the Seahawks might be tempted to go RB, but I seriously doubt it. You can find value at RB later on in the draft. Look at Steve Slaton last year, he was a 5th round pick. If the Seahawks managed to get someone who had a skill set similar to Slaton's that later in the draft, I think that they would take it.

Jenkins or Jason Smith are by far the best picks for the Seahawks. No one else truly addresses a need or would contribute within a short time.

Dillard, I am really starting to get high on. He really impressed me watching the shrine game. He has the route running skills to immediately come in and make an impact. He would probably thrive in the slot. If they are able to bring Engram back, it might make it kind of pointless to bring in Dillard, but he could be that kind of reliable receiver I believe. Another slot WR that the Seahawks already have would be Michael Bumpus. He has good hands and has a knack for finding the soft spot in the zone. He could probably be a replacement for Bobby Engram if they truly needed one right away.

summond822
01-19-2009, 03:56 PM
In the past 3 years does taking a CB in round 1 and 2 make the case for not taking Jenkins? Or is he the only guy worth taking at that spot? I would rather take Stafford than Jenkins if he was still there. But I really dont see that happening.

I thought about that for a long time. Jennings never stepped up. This is his third or fourth year and he has yet to win the starting spot. He isn't playing like a number one pick should. Josh Wilson outplayed him, and if he was three inches taller, I would say that we don't take Jenkins. However, Wilson just isn't tall enough to be a shut down corner, something that Jenkins has the potential to be.

As for Stafford there...no. That would be like a slap in the face to Hasselbeck just after Mora had publically stated that he would be the QB in Seattle for years to come. I think that Mora and Ruskell both respect Hasselbeck way too much to do something like that. Now, if Sanchez has fallen deep into round 1, they might make a play to move up and grab him. It's a little bit different scenario. A player drafted in the 20's isn't expected to replace the QB right away.

gpngc
01-23-2009, 05:32 PM
I thought about that for a long time. Jennings never stepped up. This is his third or fourth year and he has yet to win the starting spot. He isn't playing like a number one pick should. Josh Wilson outplayed him, and if he was three inches taller, I would say that we don't take Jenkins. However, Wilson just isn't tall enough to be a shut down corner, something that Jenkins has the potential to be.

As for Stafford there...no. That would be like a slap in the face to Hasselbeck just after Mora had publically stated that he would be the QB in Seattle for years to come. I think that Mora and Ruskell both respect Hasselbeck way too much to do something like that. Now, if Sanchez has fallen deep into round 1, they might make a play to move up and grab him. It's a little bit different scenario. A player drafted in the 20's isn't expected to replace the QB right away.

Think about this...

Is Josh Wilson shutting down Larry Fitzgerald one-on-one? Probably not.

Is Malcolm Jenkins, because he's a few inches taller than Wilson? Probably not.

There are very few, if any, CBs who have the height to cover the 6'3" + monster WRs in this league.

And Jenkins is not the fastest CB so that right there I think will be a turn-off to Ruskell.

CWABTWEE ALL DA WAY SUMMONDDDDDDDD!

I think your problem is that you just don't like Crabtree that much. We need to figure out why in some sort of pseudo-Seahawk-therapy. Let's begin with you listing all bad experiences you've had with crabs in your life. Next, are you allergic to trees?

summond822
01-23-2009, 05:50 PM
Think about this...

Is Josh Wilson shutting down Larry Fitzgerald one-on-one? Probably not.

Is Malcolm Jenkins, because he's a few inches taller than Wilson? Probably not.

There are very few, if any, CBs who have the height to cover the 6'3" + monster WRs in this league.

And Jenkins is not the fastest CB so that right there I think will be a turn-off to Ruskell.

CWABTWEE ALL DA WAY SUMMONDDDDDDDD!

?

So maybe they should go get Alphonso Smith...he's just another undersized, quick corner. The only difference between him and Jennings is that he actually has ball skills.

Listen, honestly, no one is going to cover Fitzgerald one on one. It's an impossibility. Taylor Mays might have a chance, but that would be about it. No, the reason I want Jenkins is because I'm talking about everyone other than Fitzgerald. The best we can do is have Trufant follow him all over the field and give him some extra help. However, you start tying up your best corner on Fitz, Boldin and Breaston will kill you. Wilson can handle Breaston. Jennings can't handle Boldin. Jenkins should be shut-down corner in this league. Plus, rookie CB's have more impact than rookie WR's.

Now to the Crabtree part.

This is my honest opinion on Crabtree:

Positive: Big physical WR that is potentially a top 10 pick. Good hands. Shows flashes of being able to make the big play. Always seems to be open. Sometimes shows the ability to fight through tackelers. Wills himself to some catches.

Negative: Doesn’t have top line speed and I don’t think that he will be as good as advertised at the next level. Seems more in the mold of Mike Williams than Larry Fitzgerald. Uses his speed too much to get open. Not really a great route runner. Doesn’t really set himself apart from other WR’s. Can go down easily as well. Didn’t run much more than slant or slip routes. Can he go up and get the jump ball?

I watched a lot of his highlights. He is open on almost every single ball that was thrown to him. He runs an amazing slant route, but other than that and screens, he really didn't do much else. He relies entirely too much on his speed. Unless he runs a 4.4 or better, I don't really see that being as much use at the pro level.

Also, to be an elite receiver, you have to be willing to go up and get the ball. The touchdowns that I saw him catch were generally just slants. He ran one fade route and he left his feet. It didn't show off his vertical at all.

The only game where I actually saw him get physical with the opposing corners was the Texas game. He was double covered and he had to be physical to catch the ball. I was impressed with that game, and if he showed that more often I might start warming up to him.

Crabtree truly has great hands though. He catches everything away from his body and quickly brings it in. And when he sets you up with his slant there's no defending it. I just don't think he's worth a Top 5 pick.

I think your problem is that you just don't like Crabtree that much. We need to figure out why in some sort of pseudo-Seahawk-therapy. Let's begin with you listing all bad experiences you've had with crabs in your life. Next, are you allergic to trees?

lol. That was actually pretty funny. And how could I be allergic to trees? I live in Washington! And to answer both, no. Though there was that one time that I stepped on a crab at the beach (barefoot)...it was underwater...pretty scary time right there.

jballa838
01-23-2009, 05:54 PM
i agree with summond. don't believe the crabtree hype.

gpngc
01-23-2009, 06:03 PM
Though there was that one time that I stepped on a crab at the beach (barefoot)...it was underwater...pretty scary time right there.

That explains everything then!

I understand your concerns with Crabtree, but realize that he's not catching many balls in traffic or with defenders draped over him because he's constantly getting open. Now part of that is the Texas Tech scheme but part of it is also him. How much, we'll never know.

About his route running...
Our offense is supposed to be based on slants (we really didn't run too many the past few years because our WRs are all so small). Tree would instantly give us that quick option. We have never seen Hasselbeck with a big WR on the outside! It's an exciting prospect to me! Crabtree can learn how to run pro routes. Roddy White couldn't run a route for his life in his rookie year and now he's a technician. Running routes is something that can be improved and taught. Size and quickness cannot and Crab has both already.

You saw that Texas game so you saw how he completely ABUSED future pro CBs. How could you not want that on your team!? Maybe it's because I'm a WR but when the Raiders beat the Bucs in Week 17 and we clinched the #4 pick ahead of them, I was ecstatic to land this guy!

He has size, we agree. He may or may not have the great straight-line speed (his 40 will show us that). What he DOES indeed have that I believe you are undervaluing is excellent quickness and football speed. Accelerating past defenders with the ball and pads is just different than running in a straight line in tights- I've done both and it just is.

AHHHHH I'm getting excited just thinking about it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

summond822
01-23-2009, 06:22 PM
That explains everything then!

I understand your concerns with Crabtree, but realize that he's not catching many balls in traffic or with defenders draped over him because he's constantly getting open. Now part of that is the Texas Tech scheme but part of it is also him. How much, we'll never know.

About his route running...
Our offense is supposed to be based on slants (we really didn't run too many the past few years because our WRs are all so small). Tree would instantly give us that quick option. We have never seen Hasselbeck with a big WR on the outside! It's an exciting prospect to me! Crabtree can learn how to run pro routes. Roddy White couldn't run a route for his life in his rookie year and now he's a technician. Running routes is something that can be improved and taught. Size and quickness cannot and Crab has both already.

You saw that Texas game so you saw how he completely ABUSED future pro CBs. How could you not want that on your team!? Maybe it's because I'm a WR but when the Raiders beat the Bucs in Week 17 and we clinched the #4 pick ahead of them, I was ecstatic to land this guy!

He has size, we agree. He may or may not have the great straight-line speed (his 40 will show us that). What he DOES indeed have that I believe you are undervaluing is excellent quickness and football speed. Accelerating past defenders with the ball and pads is just different than running in a straight line in tights- I've done both and it just is.

AHHHHH I'm getting excited just thinking about it. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

The big problem is how much of it is the scheme? If I could be sure that Crabtree himself is the reason he is open all the time, then I would be okay with the pick. However, so much of the Texas Tech offense is run upfield two-three yards and break in, pick up yards after the catch.

It is ridiculously hard to evaluate a player who is featured exclusively like that.

Also, a lot of his deep touchdowns where he accelerated beyond corners were against teams that probably don't have a pro prospect on defense.

I just find it hard to believe that:
a) the Seahawks will stay @ #4.
b) if they did stay they'd take Michael Crabtree.

Ruskell's draft patterns do not support taking Michael Crabtree. And, this year with a pick so close the end of the second, he really doesn't have to move around in the second. So, it is likely that they try to trade back into round 1 to take a player like Sanchez who is falling.

Sorry, I don't like Crabtree at 4. If they traded down, maybe. I think that Malcolm Jenkins and Jason Smith are both better options for the Seahawks.

We have never seen Hasselbeck with a big WR on the outside!

Actually we have...he was this guy called Joe Jurevicious. He played with Hasselbeck for one season and didn't get hurt when everybody else did. He was basically a TE in a WR's body. Great in the redzone. Which is why I kinda have a desire to take a guy like Ramses Bardin in the 3rd. He's big(6'5) and he is a pretty good athlete. He dominated 1-AA. He probably would have done pretty good at 1-A. Another redzone target outside of Carlson would be nice.

EDIT: BTW, what was up with your Shonn Greene pick?

gpngc
01-23-2009, 07:36 PM
The big problem is how much of it is the scheme? If I could be sure that Crabtree himself is the reason he is open all the time, then I would be okay with the pick. However, so much of the Texas Tech offense is run upfield two-three yards and break in, pick up yards after the catch.

It is ridiculously hard to evaluate a player who is featured exclusively like that.

Also, a lot of his deep touchdowns where he accelerated beyond corners were against teams that probably don't have a pro prospect on defense.

I just find it hard to believe that:
a) the Seahawks will stay @ #4.
b) if they did stay they'd take Michael Crabtree.

Ruskell's draft patterns do not support taking Michael Crabtree. And, this year with a pick so close the end of the second, he really doesn't have to move around in the second. So, it is likely that they try to trade back into round 1 to take a player like Sanchez who is falling.

Sorry, I don't like Crabtree at 4. If they traded down, maybe. I think that Malcolm Jenkins and Jason Smith are both better options for the Seahawks.



Actually we have...he was this guy called Joe Jurevicious. He played with Hasselbeck for one season and didn't get hurt when everybody else did. He was basically a TE in a WR's body. Great in the redzone. Which is why I kinda have a desire to take a guy like Ramses Bardin in the 3rd. He's big(6'5) and he is a pretty good athlete. He dominated 1-AA. He probably would have done pretty good at 1-A. Another redzone target outside of Carlson would be nice.

EDIT: BTW, what was up with your Shonn Greene pick?

True about Joe J. Where is my head?!? Maybe because his stint with us was way too short... But see how much better Hass was with a big target?!??!

Barden can't get separation, I'm seeing it at the senior bowl practices. We agree that another big target would be nice... Crabtree can be that AND a #1 WR!!!!!!!

Ruskell has drafted Warrick Dunn, Reidel Anthony, and Michael Jenkins (not as head GM, but as a prominent factor in personnel decisions).

With Seattle, he has never had the chance at a top-flight WR.

I don't think his draft patterns really matter in the top five and as I've stated before it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to trade out of the top five because of the $ factor. It hasn't happened in years. Eli-Rivers in 2004 then before that was 2002 or 2001. I think we are locked in to the #4 spot whether we like it or not.


This is art
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0b0TdhG0rFe5b/340x.jpg

http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[CRABTREE]&set=key[number],value[85]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p1369344_customback.chain]

summond822
01-23-2009, 11:28 PM
True about Joe J. Where is my head?!? Maybe because his stint with us was way too short... But see how much better Hass was with a big target?!??!

Barden can't get separation, I'm seeing it at the senior bowl practices. We agree that another big target would be nice... Crabtree can be that AND a #1 WR!!!!!!!

Ruskell has drafted Warrick Dunn, Reidel Anthony, and Michael Jenkins (not as head GM, but as a prominent factor in personnel decisions).

With Seattle, he has never had the chance at a top-flight WR.

I don't think his draft patterns really matter in the top five and as I've stated before it is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT to trade out of the top five because of the $ factor. It hasn't happened in years. Eli-Rivers in 2004 then before that was 2002 or 2001. I think we are locked in to the #4 spot whether we like it or not.

The big difference between Barden and Crabtree size and where they get picked. Big WR's aren't supposed to get as much seperation, their supposed to out jump people. That's just not Crabtree's game.

If Crabtree jumps 40+ at the combine then we might agree on him, but I haven't been able to find footage of him going up and getting the ball. The only one I've seen with him leaving his feet is a fade route where he had to jump like 6 inches.

Warrick Dunn was a running back, not a WR. Never heard of Reidel Anthoney before...and if he wasn't in charge then I am not holding him responsible for drafting Michael Jenkins cuz it wasn't his call.

And Ruskell doesn't believe in drafting first round running backs anymore.

I am still holding out on trading out of #4, and if anybody can do it, it would be Ruskell.


This is art
http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0b0TdhG0rFe5b/340x.jpg

http://lp.imageg.net/prod?set=key[name],value[CRABTREE]&set=key[number],value[85]&set=key[displaysize],value[220]&load=url[http://chains.imageg.net/graphics/dynamic/chains/p1369344_customback.chain]

Doesn't look like he caught it....at least his eyes are in the right place though.

Never did say why you had em taking Greene though...

Kropog>>>>Greene and I think that would be reaching for Kropog.

gpngc
01-25-2009, 11:35 AM
The big difference between Barden and Crabtree size and where they get picked. Big WR's aren't supposed to get as much seperation, their supposed to out jump people. That's just not Crabtree's game.

If Crabtree jumps 40+ at the combine then we might agree on him, but I haven't been able to find footage of him going up and getting the ball. The only one I've seen with him leaving his feet is a fade route where he had to jump like 6 inches.

Warrick Dunn was a running back, not a WR. Never heard of Reidel Anthoney before...and if he wasn't in charge then I am not holding him responsible for drafting Michael Jenkins cuz it wasn't his call.

And Ruskell doesn't believe in drafting first round running backs anymore.

I am still holding out on trading out of #4, and if anybody can do it, it would be Ruskell.



Doesn't look like he caught it....at least his eyes are in the right place though.

Never did say why you had em taking Greene though...

Kropog>>>>Greene and I think that would be reaching for Kropog.

I just think we go RB. I don't think we re-sign Mo (hope we don't), and I don't think we take a safety there. As far as OT, I don't think our brass feels it's much of a need for this draft because of Walter Jones spoiling us and the faith we have in Locklear not only as a RT, but to also perhaps move over to LT in x amount of years. And it's not like Jones' decline has been steep. And we still have a relative unknown (best case future RT), in Ray Willis. We could probably use a young tackle, but I think "tweaking" will mean a contributor at #37 and Shonn Greene would give us the toughest grind-it-out RB we've had since Watters. Then we can go tackle later on. Just my 2 cents.

As far as Crabs vs. Barden- Crabs CAN get separation. All WRs are "supposed to get separation." Barden is a 4th round pick right now and is no where near on the same level as Tree in terms of quickness and pure receiving skills. You probably can't find too much of Crab going up to the highest point because he's always open...

He's a wonderful natural athlete with fantastic hands. I'm not at all worried about whether or not he can out-jump 5'11 DBs. Plus how many jump-ball fades do we really run? Carlson vs. Jets and before that... ????????
So if he jumps 39 and 3/4 will we have your blessing?

jballa838
01-25-2009, 02:28 PM
After watching the senior bowl, I know that Robiskie fits our offense better than Crabtree would. Fast enough to get deep ball respect, hard worker, runs great routes, and has good bulk on his 6'2 frame.

cacksman
01-25-2009, 05:24 PM
That's just my opinion about Kent. Kent has all of the measurables that one looks for in a WR. He has top line speed, size, and jumping ability. He's one of the fastest Seahawks on the team. The only reason he hasn't been given a chance is probably his route running. However, much like Fitzgerald, when the ball is in the air, he goes up and gets it.

This year or next we could be watching one of the top young WR's in the game if Kent develops and starts playing like he is capable of. Of course, the Seahawks may not feel like he is capable of being a starter in the NFL, for some reason.

Just for fun, I'll do a little Kent/Crabtree comparison.
(Crabtree/Kent)
Age: 21/25
Height: 6'3"/6'4"
Weight: 214/219
Draft Selection: Top 15/6th round pick 210
40: 4.55/ Can't find Kent's right now, my search browsers have been acting up, but he was an All-American sprinter @ Oregon.

Kent is taller and faster than Crabtree. He may not have the YAC ability, but he is a much better athlete all around. If he had played football all of his life instead of just a couple of years at Oregon, he would have likely been a 1st round pick. He was a three sport letterman at Oregon, which just attests to how freakish of an athlete he is.


Are you kidding me with this?!?!

You are actually comparing Jordan Kent (who is lucky to still be in the NFL) to Michael Crabtree. When talking about Kent, you failed to mention that he has horrible hands. He also runs horrible routes. He cannot be counted on as a WR. The only reason he is even on the team is because he has size and speed. That's the only reason he was drafted.

Crabtree has only been playing WR for 2 years. He was a QB in high school. His first year as a WR, he won the Biletnikof (sp?) award for best WR in the country. Unlike Kent, Crabtree not only has the size and smarts to play WR, but he has the best hands in the country.

Again I ask, are you kidding me?

summond822
01-25-2009, 06:40 PM
I just think we go RB. I don't think we re-sign Mo (hope we don't), and I don't think we take a safety there. As far as OT, I don't think our brass feels it's much of a need for this draft because of Walter Jones spoiling us and the faith we have in Locklear not only as a RT, but to also perhaps move over to LT in x amount of years. And it's not like Jones' decline has been steep. And we still have a relative unknown (best case future RT), in Ray Willis. We could probably use a young tackle, but I think "tweaking" will mean a contributor at #37 and Shonn Greene would give us the toughest grind-it-out RB we've had since Watters. Then we can go tackle later on. Just my 2 cents.

As far as Crabs vs. Barden- Crabs CAN get separation. All WRs are "supposed to get separation." Barden is a 4th round pick right now and is no where near on the same level as Tree in terms of quickness and pure receiving skills. You probably can't find too much of Crab going up to the highest point because he's always open...

He's a wonderful natural athlete with fantastic hands. I'm not at all worried about whether or not he can out-jump 5'11 DBs. Plus how many jump-ball fades do we really run? Carlson vs. Jets and before that... ????????
So if he jumps 39 and 3/4 will we have your blessing?

I just have trouble seeing Greene as an early second pick. If he was there in the third, then yeah I wouldn't be adverse to taking him, but it just doesn't feel right going WR/RB in the first two rounds. Especially if we could get a guy like Andre Brown later on in the draft.

I doubt we draft Bardin. I was really just throwing him out there as a tall WR. Someone who isn't going to be able to get seperation and has to outjump people.

We don't throw many fade routes because we don't have WR's that can go up and get the ball. Having a WR that is a jump ball threat would give this offense another facet that they need. Since Crabtree doesn't have anywhere near blinding speed, he is going to have to outjump faster NFL corners to get the ball. He won't be open anywhere near as much in the NFL as he is in college.


After watching the senior bowl, I know that Robiskie fits our offense better than Crabtree would. Fast enough to get deep ball respect, hard worker, runs great routes, and has good bulk on his 6'2 frame.

I liked Robiskie all year. Doubt they took him in the second, but do you think that he would fall to them in the third?

Are you kidding me with this?!?!

You are actually comparing Jordan Kent (who is lucky to still be in the NFL) to Michael Crabtree. When talking about Kent, you failed to mention that he has horrible hands. He also runs horrible routes. He cannot be counted on as a WR. The only reason he is even on the team is because he has size and speed. That's the only reason he was drafted.

Crabtree has only been playing WR for 2 years. He was a QB in high school. His first year as a WR, he won the Biletnikof (sp?) award for best WR in the country. Unlike Kent, Crabtree not only has the size and smarts to play WR, but he has the best hands in the country.

Again I ask, are you kidding me?

Yes I am comparing Jordan Kent to Michael Crabtree, therefore I am not kidding you.

Kent played WR for two years at Oregon. That was the first time he played football (as far as I know), so if he's not a polished product I hope you can understand why, giving as how this would be his fourth year of football.

Crabtree is going to be questioned a lot more as the draft approaches because Graham Harrel is showing he doesn't have anything even remotely close to an NFL arm. Most of the passes that Crabtree catches are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. He doesn't have top line speed, so many of those 20 yard receptions he had where he caught the ball at or near the line of scrimmage and ran for almost all 20 aren't going to happen. Teams are going to notice that he doesn't have great elusiveness and he can be brought down easily at times.

If your a WR that relies on YAC, you need to have something to set you apart. Without great elusiveness or topline speed do you actually see Crabtree doing anywhere near the damage he did in college? I don't.

He was in a system that bolstered his stats. If he had gone to any school not named Texas Tech, he would not have won the Biletnikof. In fact, we would not be having this discussion about how great Crabtree is. We probably wouldn't even know his name.

The place that I think Crabtree is best suited in the NFL is at slot receiver. That is probably where he is going to end up after a team tries to make him their #1. He could probably be one of the greatest slot receivers ever, but do you take a slot receiver at 4?

cacksman
01-25-2009, 08:59 PM
Yes I am comparing Jordan Kent to Michael Crabtree, therefore I am not kidding you.

Kent played WR for two years at Oregon. That was the first time he played football (as far as I know), so if he's not a polished product I hope you can understand why, giving as how this would be his fourth year of football.

Crabtree is going to be questioned a lot more as the draft approaches because Graham Harrel is showing he doesn't have anything even remotely close to an NFL arm. Most of the passes that Crabtree catches are within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage. He doesn't have top line speed, so many of those 20 yard receptions he had where he caught the ball at or near the line of scrimmage and ran for almost all 20 aren't going to happen. Teams are going to notice that he doesn't have great elusiveness and he can be brought down easily at times.

If your a WR that relies on YAC, you need to have something to set you apart. Without great elusiveness or topline speed do you actually see Crabtree doing anywhere near the damage he did in college? I don't.

He was in a system that bolstered his stats. If he had gone to any school not named Texas Tech, he would not have won the Biletnikof. In fact, we would not be having this discussion about how great Crabtree is. We probably wouldn't even know his name.

The place that I think Crabtree is best suited in the NFL is at slot receiver. That is probably where he is going to end up after a team tries to make him their #1. He could probably be one of the greatest slot receivers ever, but do you take a slot receiver at 4?

I guess we can just ignore what all the experts are saying about him, since you know more than the guys who actually get paid to do this for a living, right?

Here's a quote I found of a scouting report on Fitzgerald before he came out: "Larry Fitzgerald does not have blazing speed, but scouts love his size, quickness, strength, timing, leaping ability, precise route-running and strong, sure hands."

That kinda sounds like a WR named Michael Crabtree in this year's draft.

Crabtree has amazing hands, especially considering he has played WR for 2 WHOLE YEARS! I'll use your Kent argument for Crabtree: Imagine if Crabtree had played WR in high school? How much better would he be then? Imagine when he gets more experience playing the position...

Also, Crabtree is a fantastic athlete and just because in his highlights you dont see him grab jump balls, doesnt mean he can't. I assure you, he can, he just doesn't need to. He also goes and gets everything with his hands, he has the best hands in the nation. He has everything you need in a #1 WR and he will only get better when he gets more experience.

Your comparison to Crabtree is Mike Williams eh? Right after you say that a main concern about him is that he doesn't show that he can get the jump ball. There is so much wrong with that, I don't even know where to start. First of all, that is all Mike Williams could do is grab a jump ball, and then you say he is like Crabtree when you just said Crabtree hasn't shown he can get the jump ball. That right there tells me you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.

jballa838
01-25-2009, 09:22 PM
you saying that Crabtree runs precise routes? Have you ever played in that spread? Its all bubble screens, quick slants and speed cuts. Speed Cuts =/= crisp routes. I am saying Crabtree can't run them, but I haven't seen it. And Larry Fitzgerald was so dope. People who don't remember are the ones comparing the two. He was never a YAC guy, he was a throw it up and Larry will get it, or Larry will run a route across the middle and catch it anyway. Case in point:
uEydRJf-nO8
Just watch the first part. He is not Michael Crabtree. Michael Crabtree can't do what Larry can do. Larry tore it up.

EDIT: And for comparison, Crabtree:
GKCuvk1iaX0
He is a YAC guy. He doesn't show Burst to go get the ball, but he is good at breaking tackles on a team that was death penalized a few decades a go (SMU). Oh, and he doesn't outrun any good competition, and gets caught by a linebacker near the end. NFL DBs run sub 4.4 and will most likely catch him.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 12:01 AM
NFL DBs will most likely run faster than him, that doesnt mean they will tackle him. Anquan Boldin is another very good comparison (whom I think is a better comparison to Crabtree).

And jballa: you obviously know nothing about football if you are gonna knock him for getting caught by a LB. The play where that happens, he broke like 3 tackles and had his momentum stopped. If he had been running at full speed no way he gets caught by a LB. I read your post and I have yet to find a legit argument against Crabtree. Nice try though.

jballa838
01-26-2009, 10:17 AM
NFL DBs will most likely run faster than him, that doesnt mean they will tackle him. Anquan Boldin is another very good comparison (whom I think is a better comparison to Crabtree).

And jballa: you obviously know nothing about football if you are gonna knock him for getting caught by a LB. The play where that happens, he broke like 3 tackles and had his momentum stopped. If he had been running at full speed no way he gets caught by a LB. I read your post and I have yet to find a legit argument against Crabtree. Nice try though.
Besides the majority of it being screens? I got a little carried away on th LB part, but my legit argument is with the 4th pick, do you want a guy who you have never seen run a real go route (Fade stops don't count) and got the majority of his yards and big plays on screen plays?

Boldin is a better comparison but he is bigger and more physical IM(H)O.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 12:31 PM
Besides the majority of it being screens? I got a little carried away on th LB part, but my legit argument is with the 4th pick, do you want a guy who you have never seen run a real go route (Fade stops don't count) and got the majority of his yards and big plays on screen plays?

Boldin is a better comparison but he is bigger and more physical IM(H)O.

How do you know that Boldin is more physical? No one ever presses Crabtree so that must tell you that they are scared of pressing him. And who cares that he hasnt ran a real go route. He is a WR, I would be more concerned if that was all he ran was go routes.

And Boldin is actually smaller than Crabtree. They are both listed as 215 but Boldin is 6'1, while Crabtree is 6'3.

Want to try again?

summond822
01-26-2009, 01:48 PM
NFL DBs will most likely run faster than him, that doesnt mean they will tackle him. Anquan Boldin is another very good comparison (whom I think is a better comparison to Crabtree).

And jballa: you obviously know nothing about football if you are gonna knock him for getting caught by a LB. The play where that happens, he broke like 3 tackles and had his momentum stopped. If he had been running at full speed no way he gets caught by a LB. I read your post and I have yet to find a legit argument against Crabtree. Nice try though.

First of all, how is not knowing if the guy can run routes not a legitamate argument against taking him at 4? Generally when teams aren't sure if a player can run routes they take him later on in the draft like 2nd round at earliest. Route running can be taught true, but if your picking in the top 5, your expecting that guy to come in a play and produce right away. If he doesn't know how to run anything other than a bubble screen or slant route, then that is a major issue.

And your wrong about the linebacker issue. Linebackers in the NFL will catch Crabtree. He doesn't have the elite speed to break as many tackles as he did in college. With his skill set right now all he is a slot receiver. So those big gains where he ran upfield for 10-20 yards will be stopped near the line of scrimmage for 1-5.

When have you ever seen Crabtree run anything other than a screen, slant, or a slip route?

And in the NFL, without elite speed, he won't be open anywhere near as much as he is in college. He has to be able to go up and get the ball. Boldin does it. Anybody that he has been compared to was willing to go up and get the ball. We haven't seen Crabtree have to do that in college. We won't even know if he is capable of doing it until he gets to the NFL.

Crabtree = most overrated WR ever.

How do you know that Boldin is more physical? No one ever presses Crabtree so that must tell you that they are scared of pressing him. And who cares that he hasnt ran a real go route. He is a WR, I would be more concerned if that was all he ran was go routes.

And Boldin is actually smaller than Crabtree. They are both listed as 215 but Boldin is 6'1, while Crabtree is 6'3.

Want to try again?

To be honest we don't know if Crabtree is going to be as physical as Boldin. We assume Boldin is more physical because that is his game. He goes and makes catches and beats up the corners. Crabtree only beats up corners when he has time to get a 5 yard run at them.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 02:46 PM
First of all, how is not knowing if the guy can run routes not a legitamate argument against taking him at 4? Generally when teams aren't sure if a player can run routes they take him later on in the draft like 2nd round at earliest. Route running can be taught true, but if your picking in the top 5, your expecting that guy to come in a play and produce right away. If he doesn't know how to run anything other than a bubble screen or slant route, then that is a major issue.

And your wrong about the linebacker issue. Linebackers in the NFL will catch Crabtree. He doesn't have the elite speed to break as many tackles as he did in college. With his skill set right now all he is a slot receiver. So those big gains where he ran upfield for 10-20 yards will be stopped near the line of scrimmage for 1-5.

When have you ever seen Crabtree run anything other than a screen, slant, or a slip route?

And in the NFL, without elite speed, he won't be open anywhere near as much as he is in college. He has to be able to go up and get the ball. Boldin does it. Anybody that he has been compared to was willing to go up and get the ball. We haven't seen Crabtree have to do that in college. We won't even know if he is capable of doing it until he gets to the NFL.

Crabtree = most overrated WR ever.



To be honest we don't know if Crabtree is going to be as physical as Boldin. We assume Boldin is more physical because that is his game. He goes and makes catches and beats up the corners. Crabtree only beats up corners when he has time to get a 5 yard run at them.

That is not even a concern with Crabtree, that he cannot run certain routes. He has never had a problem running any types of routes, not slants, posts, screens. Just because you don't see him running outs and curls in his HIGHLIGHT video, doesnt mean he does not run them. You are watching highlight videos, so obviously they arent going to show the 15 yard out route that he tiptoed the sideline for a 1st down. Crabtree's forte is his YAC ability and in Seattle's offense, and passes being thrown from Hass, that is huge. And since when does a WR need to have elite speed to be a good YAC guy? NEVER.

You are obviously nitpicking when you are questioning his toughness. He is 6'3, 215 and has never shown any indication of being even somewhat soft. Teams don't press him because they are not stupid.

And a slot WR? Are you stupid? How many 6'3 215 WRs with hands like vice grips do you see that arent stars in the NFL?? Slot WR, give me a break guy.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 02:57 PM
And what makes you think he wont be able to get a jump ball? With his size. leaping ability, and the fact that he catches EVERYTHING with his hands, he will be able to do that among the best in the league. I have never seen him drop a pass and he never lets the ball into his body, he only catches with his hands. He goes and gets the ball rather than let it come to him.

He is the choice at #4 if he is there, and it is very likely he will be.

summond822
01-26-2009, 05:36 PM
You don't need top line speed to get YAC, but you do need to have an ability to shake tacklers. Crabtree consistently outruns inferior defensive players and relies on his body to run over defenders. That's not really being very elusive.

And until I have seen proof that he can go up and get the ball, I am going to reserve judgement on Crabtree. First of all, because just cuz a guy can jump over 40 inches standing doesn't mean he can outjump corners. I have yet to see proof of Crabtree's vertical.

Also, pointing at his size. 6'3, 215. That doesn't make him successful. If that was the case then you could plug in anybody that size in at WR and expect them to be successful. He has good size. So what. It doesn't mean he is going to be a successful WR at the next level. He probably will be. I don't think he will be worth the number 4 overall pick. He's not even the most athletic WR in this draft. Percy Harvin would go ahead of Crabtree if it wasn't for his durability issues. Percy Harvin is someone who has legitamate YAC ability, even in the NFL. He is a lot faster and is able to shake guys easily.

EDIT: Just saw Todd McShay's first mock of the year. He has us taking B.J. Raji. Not that bad of a pick IMO.

gpngc
01-26-2009, 06:25 PM
Everyone knows where I stand with this debate.

The Larry Fitzgerald comparison is out there because they have each displayed the best set of hands we've seen in college in this generation. Hands is the #1 thing I look for in a WR. Route-running (something that can be tweaked- and his isn't even poor anyway) is #2. Everything else on top of that is gravy.

About the press coverage thing- when he was approached at the LOS in the Texas game he abused the CB (Palmer I think) TWICE, one with the inside move on a slant, and the other on the quick fade to the corner. They may not have been crisp, downfield developing routes, but the quickness he displayed on those two plays (and many other plays, even ones where he has the ball) has me and probably a lot of people in the NFL believing not only can he improve his route-running, but he can become very good at it. I will bring it up again, Roddy White could not run a route for his life in his rookie season and now he's a technician. Hines Ward and Randle El LITERALLY never ran a route during college and they are both pretty good at it now.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 07:04 PM
You don't need top line speed to get YAC, but you do need to have an ability to shake tacklers. Crabtree consistently outruns inferior defensive players and relies on his body to run over defenders. That's not really being very elusive.

First of all, because just cuz a guy can jump over 40 inches standing doesn't mean he can outjump corners.

Also, pointing at his size. 6'3, 215. That doesn't make him successful. If that was the case then you could plug in anybody that size in at WR and expect them to be successful. He has good size. So what. It doesn't mean he is going to be a successful WR at the next level. He probably will be. I don't think he will be worth the number 4 overall pick. He's not even the most athletic WR in this draft. Percy Harvin would go ahead of Crabtree if it wasn't for his durability issues. Percy Harvin is someone who has legitamate YAC ability, even in the NFL. He is a lot faster and is able to shake guys easily.

EDIT: Just saw Todd McShay's first mock of the year. He has us taking B.J. Raji. Not that bad of a pick IMO.

I am at a loss of words how someone can be so clueless. Responding to the bolded part: Do you want to read again what you just said? You stated just because someone can jump over 40 inches doesnt mean they can outjump corners. How many corners do you know that have 40 inch verticals? There are MAYBE a couple corners in the league that can get up as high as Crabtree and no corner in the league even has close to as good of hands as he does.

And Crabtree displays very good elusiveness for a big WR, I dont even know what you are talking about there.

Maybe you didnt get the fact that I wasnt just talking about size. Not only does he has the size of a #1 WR, but he has the best hands in the country. He is a good route runner, and does exactlyt what he is asked to do. He is a playmaker and a leader. And there is NO WAY Harvin would go over Crabtree even if he had no injuries in his collegiate career. Crabtree would still be the #1 wideout on the board.

I also like how you only value McShay's opinion out of all the experts out there, just because he is the one guy that doesnt have us taking Crabtree. First of all, Raji would be a horrible pick. DTs have a bigger bust rate than ANY position in the league. And you want to take one at #4? He is not even in the same league as Glenn Dorsey was last year. Plus we already have Mebane and Bryant to take care of NT. If anything we need an UT not another nose. An informed fan would know this.

BamaFalcon59
01-26-2009, 07:17 PM
I got to say, some very off comments have been made in reguard to Crabtree during this discussion.

The Mike Williams comparison was horrible, and contridicted a large point of the anti-Crabtree poster's arguement.

jballa838
01-26-2009, 07:33 PM
How many people listed at 6-3 215 are actually 6-3 215 come the combine? I really don't know the answer, but I was listed at 6'2 170 but in all actuality I am closer to 6'0 160. Just throwing that out there.

Crabtree does not have a 40" inch vert, and we haven't really seen his leaping ability anywhere, compared to other WRs in this class. One thought on that is was it Harrell's arm or Crabtree's ablility that was why they were running fade-stops? I watched a lot of TTech and never said "WOW, great hops" like you are implying. Crabtree's playing style just doesn't translate well to being a professional wide reciever, as he is a tweener. He isn't a big jump over you guy and he isn't a quick run past you guy. He is just Michael Crabtree. I like him as a college player, but I don't see him coming in and making the impact someone you draft at four should. I don't like him as the top WR in the class, but he is definitely top two or three. I like Harvin more as a prospect and player in space, and he can help in the return game. Crabtree can't help on special teams. Thats not arguable. I need to see this guys actual size and strength numbers from the combine or his pro-day before I tout him as our pick.

And no way we pick Raji. He didn't play as well as Ellis did in the senior bowl last year.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 07:36 PM
I got to say, some very off comments have been made in reguard to Crabtree during this discussion.

The Mike Williams comparison was horrible, and contridicted a large point of the anti-Crabtree poster's arguement.

Yep, I called him out on it too. :cool:

summond822
01-26-2009, 08:19 PM
I got to say, some very off comments have been made in reguard to Crabtree during this discussion.

The Mike Williams comparison was horrible, and contridicted a large point of the anti-Crabtree poster's arguement.

When Mike Williams came out he had the same hype as Crabtree about being the next best WR. The comparison to Williams was ultimately a bit of a jab at Crabtree saying that I think he won't be anywhere near as good as advertised.

I am at a loss of words how someone can be so clueless. Responding to the bolded part: Do you want to read again what you just said? You stated just because someone can jump over 40 inches doesnt mean they can outjump corners. How many corners do you know that have 40 inch verticals? There are MAYBE a couple corners in the league that can get up as high as Crabtree and no corner in the league even has close to as good of hands as he does.

And Crabtree displays very good elusiveness for a big WR, I dont even know what you are talking about there.

Maybe you didnt get the fact that I wasnt just talking about size. Not only does he has the size of a #1 WR, but he has the best hands in the country. He is a good route runner, and does exactlyt what he is asked to do. He is a playmaker and a leader. And there is NO WAY Harvin would go over Crabtree even if he had no injuries in his collegiate career. Crabtree would still be the #1 wideout on the board.

I also like how you only value McShay's opinion out of all the experts out there, just because he is the one guy that doesnt have us taking Crabtree. First of all, Raji would be a horrible pick. DTs have a bigger bust rate than ANY position in the league. And you want to take one at #4? He is not even in the same league as Glenn Dorsey was last year. Plus we already have Mebane and Bryant to take care of NT. If anything we need an UT not another nose. An informed fan would know this.

First of all, the bold part. That statement I made was about the combine when players aren't expected to jump when they are running full speed. Jumping for measurement and jumping for in a game running full speed and having to alter your body in the air are two completely different things. The point being, someone can have a ridiculous vertical but not be able to catch some jump balls.

And yes, if Harvin didn't have durability issues he would be the consensus number 1 WR on every board. The only reason you won't see the faster and more talented Harvin go early is because of his durability issues. He is a game changer, who even if he doesn't make an impact at WR will automatically improve a team's special teams. If he doesn't work out a team will still have a valuable return man. If Crabtree doesn't work out, the team has nothing.

I like how you throw out Bryant who didn't play a meaningful down last season, so we really don't know what he is. Is Raji my first choice, hell no. But in the end, McShay shows a more informed opinion of the Seahawks needs, which is defensive.

I think that Seahawks are going to be back next year, and I don't think that Crabtree will help them. Longterm, maybe, but I seriously doubt he lives up to the lofty expectations everyone is throwing at him.

In the end, it's not my decision or your decision. It's only Ruskell and Mora's. Ask yourself honestly, do you really think that two defensive minded people like Ruskell and Mora are actually going to take a WR? Heck, I think their more likely to take Aaron Curry. He has a lower chance of busting than almost anybody in this draft, plus following the trend of rookie LB's, he would most likely make an instant impact on the team. The only reason that I don't ever argue for Curry is because that would mean that Leroy Hill was gone, which would be a horrible thing.

Crabtree is overrated. If he had gone to any school other than Texas Tech, chances are we don't even know his name. He doesn't win the Biletnikof (anybody know the right spelling?) Award even once.

I'm gonna tell you something. A couple of months ago, I was ecstatic about Crabtree. Then I realized, that he, much like Rashard Mendenhall last year, was a player that I can't see the Seahawks ever drafting. Crabtree has everything that Ruskell looks for when he drafts a player (multiple years of production, he played against top level competition, no character issues), but he truly doesn't set himself apart in my eyes.

Here are a list of reasons why I don't like Crabtree and thinks he's really overrated:
1) The Big 12's defenses weren't very good this year. When the majority of the teams in your conference are putting up 30 points a game against whoever they play, that is not a good defensive league.
2) Texas Tech's offense is based around short routes. We don't know if Crabtree can actually make a catch over the middle or 10 yards down the field because he never did it in college. He came out of a system that throws the ball within 5 yards of the line of the scrimmage, it seems like all the time. Can he catch anything when he is actually covered?
3) Graham Harrell has nothing for an arm. He probably shouldn't even be drafted. It truly brings Crabtree into question.
4) He's a YAC guy. Honestly. Do you think that Crabtree will be able to shake quality tacklers in the NFL like he did in college. He rarely faced anyone as fast as he is. In the NFL almost everyone on the defensive side (excluding linemen) is going to be faster than him. He relies entirely too much on his speed in college.

Crabtree's skill set is probably honestly best suited for the slot receiver role. He's got great hands, I'm not going to argue that. He finds the soft spot in the zone. He isn't going to outrun the defense. He runs good short routes. How is that not the perfect fit in the slot? The slot is probably where he has to play if you want him to be worth the #4 overall pick and want to get something out of him. Otherwise, I seriously doubt he sees the field that much. But oh...we have a guy called Bobby Engram there...

I'm done arguing about Crabtree for today. Maybe I'll be back to argue with you tomorrow.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 08:46 PM
In the end, it's not my decision or your decision. It's only Ruskell and Mora's. Ask yourself honestly, do you really think that two defensive minded people like Ruskell and Mora are actually going to take a WR? Heck, I think their more likely to take Aaron Curry. He has a lower chance of busting than almost anybody in this draft, plus following the trend of rookie LB's, he would most likely make an instant impact on the team. The only reason that I don't ever argue for Curry is because that would mean that Leroy Hill was gone, which would be a horrible thing.

Crabtree is overrated. If he had gone to any school other than Texas Tech, chances are we don't even know his name. He doesn't win the Biletnikof (anybody know the right spelling?) Award even once.

I'm gonna tell you something. A couple of months ago, I was ecstatic about Crabtree. Then I realized, that he, much like Rashard Mendenhall last year, was a player that I can't see the Seahawks ever drafting. Crabtree has everything that Ruskell looks for when he drafts a player (multiple years of production, he played against top level competition, no character issues), but he truly doesn't set himself apart in my eyes.

Here are a list of reasons why I don't like Crabtree and thinks he's really overrated:
1) The Big 12's defenses weren't very good this year. When the majority of the teams in your conference are putting up 30 points a game against whoever they play, that is not a good defensive league.
2) Texas Tech's offense is based around short routes. We don't know if Crabtree can actually make a catch over the middle or 10 yards down the field because he never did it in college. He came out of a system that throws the ball within 5 yards of the line of the scrimmage, it seems like all the time. Can he catch anything when he is actually covered?
3) Graham Harrell has nothing for an arm. He probably shouldn't even be drafted. It truly brings Crabtree into question.
4) He's a YAC guy. Honestly. Do you think that Crabtree will be able to shake quality tacklers in the NFL like he did in college. He rarely faced anyone as fast as he is. In the NFL almost everyone on the defensive side (excluding linemen) is going to be faster than him. He relies entirely too much on his speed in college.

Crabtree's skill set is probably honestly best suited for the slot receiver role. He's got great hands, I'm not going to argue that. He finds the soft spot in the zone. He isn't going to outrun the defense. He runs good short routes. How is that not the perfect fit in the slot? The slot is probably where he has to play if you want him to be worth the #4 overall pick and want to get something out of him. Otherwise, I seriously doubt he sees the field that much. But oh...we have a guy called Bobby Engram there...



How about a sig bet on who you think Seattle will draft. You say they are more likely to take Curry. I'll take Crabtree, you take Curry and we will see whos right. Its really no gamble for me, since Curry is probably the last player they would take at 4.

You think Crabtree is perfect for the slot... hmm I bet if we got Boldin, you would think he deserves to only play the slot too. Everything you just said about Crabtree is true of Boldin. And Crabtree is even bigger than Boldin. He also has only played WR for 2 years. His potential is amazing. His floor is not low at all.

Can he catch anything when he is actually covered? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaN_ce47MOY He always goes and gets the ball if it isnt right to him.

You are really nitpicking when it comes to trying to find his weaknesses. You dont know if he can make a catch over the middle? 10 yards down the field? You act like he only caught screens. He didnt and you know that. You are just struggling at this point.

gpngc
01-26-2009, 09:29 PM
This should answer some questions about whether or not he can jump up and get the ball... LOL I can't believe we even have to do this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJrSuEAlq0U&feature=related

Mike Williams was NEVER anywhere even close to close to anywhere near being close to at all close to as quick as Crabtree. I'll give you that he doesn't have top-notch speed, but he is EXTREMELY quick for his size.

Big 12 competition is really not a good argument against a WR. A WR vs a DB is not something that can be valued- like "oh he only made that amazing catch because it was against Rice". It's still a great catch against an opponent in good position. Granted on the ones where he's wide open obviously he won't get that separation in the pro's but no one is expecting that at all. Fitzgerald beasted on weak Big East DBs. Greg Jennings toasted 4.6 MAC guys.

No need to spell out the #s for you but he abused all defenses, not just the Big 12 ones.

Check out game by game: http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/playerDetail.jsp?yr=2008&org=700&player=5

You don't go for 12 catches for 154 yards against Oklahoma in your second career collegiate game unless you are a special player. And you don't follow that up with 9 catches for 195 yards at Texas unless you are a VERY special player.

And the Big 12 defenses might be statistically considered weak, but I think that has to do a lot more with how amazing the Big 12 offenses are. The fact is Tree lit up some pretty damn good football players on those Texas defenses.

jballa838
01-26-2009, 09:41 PM
That video you posted showed zero actual jumpballs where he left his feet very high. He has superb hands, but I don't know about this. They always talk about the system QBs. Maybe he is a system WR? I have a lot more questions than answers at this point. Stat wise he was awesome, but so was Ashlie Lelie, and he ran really fast too. Where is he now?

gpngc
01-26-2009, 09:58 PM
That video you posted showed zero actual jumpballs where he left his feet very high. He has superb hands, but I don't know about this. They always talk about the system QBs. Maybe he is a system WR? I have a lot more questions than answers at this point. Stat wise he was awesome, but so was Ashlie Lelie, and he ran really fast too. Where is he now?

I could have sworn there were two where he jumped up over the defender and came down with the ball.

There seriously weren't any where he left his feet and made a tall grab?

Or are you saying "very high" meaning he didn't jump up high enough to impress you?

I never saw Ashley Lelie in college so I can't comment on him as the prospect but from what I saw in the pro's there really isn't much of a comparison. Bottom line is Crabtree has WORLD CLASS HANDS. Lelie never did. And Lelie wasn't the hardest worker or at all dedicated to his craft. Even with all that he had his moments in the league.

Why is it that most are talking about Fitzgerald and Boldin and you guys are comparing him to Lelie and Jordan Kent? LOL. Think about that for a second. Someone has got to be way off because those pairs are on two different stratospheres!

gpngc
01-26-2009, 10:00 PM
That video you posted showed zero actual jumpballs where he left his feet very high. He has superb hands, but I don't know about this. They always talk about the system QBs. Maybe he is a system WR? I have a lot more questions than answers at this point. Stat wise he was awesome, but so was Ashlie Lelie, and he ran really fast too. Where is he now?

Just re-watched and the first grab is over a defender and the one at the 25 second mark is in the front corner of the endzone over a defender. I don't understand. What more are you looking for? lol.

gpngc
01-26-2009, 10:04 PM
2) Texas Tech's offense is based around short routes. We don't know if Crabtree can actually make a catch over the middle or 10 yards down the field because he never did it in college. He came out of a system that throws the ball within 5 yards of the line of the scrimmage, it seems like all the time. Can he catch anything when he is actually covered?

Watch the video...

And look for more. When you make so many plays youtube actually can be a good way to check out a prospect...

He ran over the middle, he ran deep posts, he ran comebacks, slants, pretty much everything.

You can skip over the bubble screens he where he breaks tackles and accelerates past hopeless defenders because that doesn't prove anything...

...even though the quick screen is a commonly used play in the NFL also.

cacksman
01-26-2009, 10:21 PM
Honestly the people arguing against Crabtree (jballa and summond) are just grasping at straws at this point.

I only compared him to Fitz because his scouting report sounded eerily similar to Crabtree's. I really think Anquan Boldin and Brandon Marshall are better comparisions to him, and are examples of the type of impact he should have in the NFL. Crabtree will be a guy who will grap 100+ balls in some seasons. He is just that type of player.

BamaFalcon59
01-26-2009, 10:29 PM
I'ma laugh when certain Seattle fans get what they want by not drafting Crabtree, and they they see him go on to see him flourish elsewhere.

I'm not saying Jenkins would not be a fine pick. But Crabtree is being overanalyzed right here.

jballa838
01-26-2009, 10:31 PM
I am almost out of straws too.
I just don't think he is a Larry Fitzgerald type player. He fits a different genre. maybe he proves me wrong. Maybe he proves me right.

summond822
01-27-2009, 11:23 AM
First of all, Curry is probably the stupidest pick the Seahawks could make. I was simply throwing him out there as a player that would make an instant impact and has a low chance of busting. Curry would cost more to sign than it would cost the Seahawks to resign Leroy Hill. And the only way they would even consider drafting Curry is if Leroy Hill was gone.

I personally prefer Malcolm Jenkins and Jason Smith to Crabtree. Both fill positions of need and can make impacts sooner than a WR. The learning curve for CB's vs. WR's is in favor of CB's. Smith wouldn't be expected to start at LT, he would be groomed by Jones and might be able to kick inside to G for a year or two. Oher or Monroe are both probably smarter picks if they need to kick them inside while learning from Jones.

The arguments for Crabtree are generally based off of him making an instant impact. Rookie WR's generally don't make that big of an impact.

There is a direct correlation between route running and success in the NFL. That is why almost every person who plays fantasy football knows about the "third year rule." Where WR's turly begin to make a fantasy impact is in their third year. That is because it takes about 3 years to learn how to run NFL routes. Crabtree is even farther behind than most WR's (on the route running learning curve) because he runs little else than slants and screens. If you want an immediate impact at WR, you have to look for someone who is known for their route running in college.

A quick screen is used in the NFL maybe 1-5 times per game. It also isn't always ran to a WR.

I think if you take a WR top 5 he had better be a Larry Fitzgerald/Andre Johnson tpye of player. I don't see Crabtree as being able to do that. His skill set is different. He may end up being a great WR, but I just don't think he is an elite WR like those two.

Since you guys are hell bent on the Seahawks taking Crabtree and seem to think that Ruskell has no choice but to take him, I have a question for you.

Did you even begin to suspect the Seahawks would take Lawrence Jackson in the first last year?

I know I didn't. I gave them Jonathan Stewart and Kentwan Balmer in my mocks last year. One early (very early) mock had them taking Martellus Bennett. Never once did I even see a draft, any draft, giving the Seahawks Jackson. The point being, we have no idea where Ruskell is going to go with his picks. I still think the Seahawks ultimately trade down if possible. If not they take the best value on the board, which is either Malcolm Jenkins or one of the OT's.

So gpngc, you may say that Ruskell's draft pattern means nothing, but it does. It is the only common thing between each of his drafts. If you don't consider that, then there truly is no point in trying to reason or argue with you.

Also, jballa and I were talking about this earlier in the year. Ruskell has a tendency to draft safely on offense, especially early on. That means that he generally stays away from skill position players and QB's, and especially RB's, in the early rounds. Linemen, I believe, have the longest average careers in the NFL. They are a safer pick. That is why you will almost always see Ruskell draft an offensive lineman or defensive player in the first. If I had to say right now who they take, definately Malcolm Jenkins or Jason Smith.

cacksman
01-27-2009, 12:48 PM
The arguments for Crabtree are generally based off of him making an instant impact. Rookie WR's generally don't make that big of an impact.

There is a direct correlation between route running and success in the NFL. That is why almost every person who plays fantasy football knows about the "third year rule." Where WR's turly begin to make a fantasy impact is in their third year. That is because it takes about 3 years to learn how to run NFL routes. Crabtree is even farther behind than most WR's (on the route running learning curve) because he runs little else than slants and screens. If you want an immediate impact at WR, you have to look for someone who is known for their route running in college.

A quick screen is used in the NFL maybe 1-5 times per game. It also isn't always ran to a WR.

I think if you take a WR top 5 he had better be a Larry Fitzgerald/Andre Johnson tpye of player. I don't see Crabtree as being able to do that. His skill set is different. He may end up being a great WR, but I just don't think he is an elite WR like those two.

Since you guys are hell bent on the Seahawks taking Crabtree and seem to think that Ruskell has no choice but to take him, I have a question for you.

Did you even begin to suspect the Seahawks would take Lawrence Jackson in the first last year?

I know I didn't. I gave them Jonathan Stewart and Kentwan Balmer in my mocks last year. One early (very early) mock had them taking Martellus Bennett. Never once did I even see a draft, any draft, giving the Seahawks Jackson. The point being, we have no idea where Ruskell is going to go with his picks. I still think the Seahawks ultimately trade down if possible. If not they take the best value on the board, which is either Malcolm Jenkins or one of the OT's.

Also, jballa and I were talking about this earlier in the year. Ruskell has a tendency to draft safely on offense, especially early on. .

Okay first of all, I have never said I wanted to draft Crabtree because I thought he would help us immediately. I know that it is possible that he won't contribute his rookie year. But honestly, that tookie WR argument doesnt hold much water anymore. Every year now, we see more and more rookie WRs make an immediate impact. Just this last year there was Eddie Royal, DeSean Jackson, Donnie Avery, etc. Previously there has been guys like Marques Colston, Dwayne Bowe, Roy Williams, Calvin Johnson, etc. Aside from Johnson and maybe Williams, none of those guys were even as highly regarded as Crabtree. So you are wrong there. The 3 year WR rule no longer applies.

I didnt say I saw him as a Larry Fitzgerald/Andre Johnson type WR. I said I see him as an Anquan Boldin/Brandon Marshall type player. You know this, you are just trying to switch it up for your argument, and its not working.

And of course no one is going to be able to peg who a team is going to draft at the end of round 1. They have NO IDEA who is going to be there when we pick. I guarantee you that if Stewart was there when Seattle picked they would ahve taken him over Jackson. It is a lot easier to judge who a team in the top 5 or 10 is going to take. That is why most of the mocks get most of the top 10 right, but start falling off the more picks there are. Its really common sense.

And Ruskell has never had a top 5 or 10 pick so you cant use the argument that he picks safely, because you have never seen him in this position.

summond822
01-27-2009, 01:24 PM
Okay first of all, I have never said I wanted to draft Crabtree because I thought he would help us immediately. I know that it is possible that he won't contribute his rookie year. But honestly, that tookie WR argument doesnt hold much water anymore. Every year now, we see more and more rookie WRs make an immediate impact. Just this last year there was Eddie Royal, DeSean Jackson, Donnie Avery, etc. Previously there has been guys like Marques Colston, Dwayne Bowe, Roy Williams, Calvin Johnson, etc. Aside from Johnson and maybe Williams, none of those guys were even as highly regarded as Crabtree. So you are wrong there. The 3 year WR rule no longer applies.

I didnt say I saw him as a Larry Fitzgerald/Andre Johnson type WR. I said I see him as an Anquan Boldin/Brandon Marshall type player. You know this, you are just trying to switch it up for your argument, and its not working.

And of course no one is going to be able to peg who a team is going to draft at the end of round 1. They have NO IDEA who is going to be there when we pick. I guarantee you that if Stewart was there when Seattle picked they would ahve taken him over Jackson. It is a lot easier to judge who a team in the top 5 or 10 is going to take. That is why most of the mocks get most of the top 10 right, but start falling off the more picks there are. Its really common sense.

And Ruskell has never had a top 5 or 10 pick so you cant use the argument that he picks safely, because you have never seen him in this position.

I'm not saying that you are comparing him to Fitz or Johnson. I am saying that is what I believe a WR should become if he is taken in the top 5.

Also, many of the rookie WR's that you listed were above average in route running or they had some other thing that set them drastically apart from every other WR. The three this year are all speed guys. Johnson was a freak and is the ultimate WR prospect. There was no way someone as freakishly athletic as Johnson wouldn't contribute. I just don't think that Crabtree is as athletic as people make him out to be. Almost every one ran more types of routes in college than Crabtree was required to.

And I know that you hate it when I say this, but if he wants to make an impact his rookie season it is going to be in a slot role where he can hunker down and catch the ball in between zones. The slot role is really what he is most prepared for right now.

Crabtree may ultimately be a great WR down the road, but I just can't see it right now. He seems like a possession guy to me. I still don't think he is worth a Top 5 pick. Shutdown corners are worth top 5 picks. Franchise LT's are worth top 5 picks. Premier pass rushers are worth Top 5 picks. WR's value as a Top 5 pick has been going down to the point where you have to be freakishly athletic to even be considered anymore. Do you honestly think Crabtree is that good of an athlete?

As for Stewart last year, he was also a hometown kid. He grew up in Washington, played college in the Northwest. He would have been the most popular pick by far. Still doesn't mean that Ruskell would have taken him...

Ultimately, we can only guess. So, until the combine is over, it kinda seems pointless right now to discuss Crabtree, or anyone else who only has two years of tape to go on. The combine isn't the ultimate measurement for where prospects go, but there are too many questions in my mind about Crabtree right now to encourage him being picked at #4. The combine might answer some, but it is almost impossible for me to ever be comfortable with Crabtree.

EDIT: Looking through the Senior Bowl stuff, the list of past first rounders caught my eye. I think that I may have found another trend of Ruskell's.

The first player that he has taken each year, with Seattle, has been a senior. I can't really verify this without some more research, but just looking at it.

He arrived in 2005 (or was it 2004...) and took Chris Spencer, a participant of the Senior Bowl.

Next year, Kelly Jennings, participant of the Senior Bowl.

Josh Wilson (I can't confirm this right now but I believe he was a senior).

Lawrence Jackson

All seniors. This may extend deeper into the draft, but I have to find that stuff first.

cacksman
01-27-2009, 02:57 PM
:( I'm not saying that you are comparing him to Fitz or Johnson. I am saying that is what I believe a WR should become if he is taken in the top 5.

Also, many of the rookie WR's that you listed were above average in route running or they had some other thing that set them drastically apart from every other WR. The three this year are all speed guys. Johnson was a freak and is the ultimate WR prospect. There was no way someone as freakishly athletic as Johnson wouldn't contribute. I just don't think that Crabtree is as athletic as people make him out to be. Almost every one ran more types of routes in college than Crabtree was required to.

And I know that you hate it when I say this, but if he wants to make an impact his rookie season it is going to be in a slot role where he can hunker down and catch the ball in between zones. The slot role is really what he is most prepared for right now.

Crabtree may ultimately be a great WR down the road, but I just can't see it right now. He seems like a possession guy to me. I still don't think he is worth a Top 5 pick. Shutdown corners are worth top 5 picks. Franchise LT's are worth top 5 picks. Premier pass rushers are worth Top 5 picks. WR's value as a Top 5 pick has been going down to the point where you have to be freakishly athletic to even be considered anymore. Do you honestly think Crabtree is that good of an athlete?

As for Stewart last year, he was also a hometown kid. He grew up in Washington, played college in the Northwest. He would have been the most popular pick by far. Still doesn't mean that Ruskell would have taken him...

Ultimately, we can only guess. So, until the combine is over, it kinda seems pointless right now to discuss Crabtree, or anyone else who only has two years of tape to go on. The combine isn't the ultimate measurement for where prospects go, but there are too many questions in my mind about Crabtree right now to encourage him being picked at #4. The combine might answer some, but it is almost impossible for me to ever be comfortable with Crabtree.

EDIT: Looking through the Senior Bowl stuff, the list of past first rounders caught my eye. I think that I may have found another trend of Ruskell's.

The first player that he has taken each year, with Seattle, has been a senior. I can't really verify this without some more research, but just looking at it.

He arrived in 2005 (or was it 2004...) and took Chris Spencer, a participant of the Senior Bowl.

Next year, Kelly Jennings, participant of the Senior Bowl.

Josh Wilson (I can't confirm this right now but I believe he was a senior).

Lawrence Jackson

All seniors. This may extend deeper into the draft, but I have to find that stuff first.

You are really grasping at straws now. Give it up, you don't have a legit argument against Crabtree. You keep saying that he doesnt run enough routes, but that is completely false. That isnt even a knock on him at all. Sure most of his big plays come on slants and reverses where it allows him to be a YAC guy. Hass is money at slants so he will fit right in. He also runs posts, outs, ins, I havent really seen him run a fade probably because Harrell's arm sucks. The fact that his arm strength isnt good is not something to downgrade Crab for, if anything its a strength to wonder what he could do with a better QB.

It doesnt say anything about Crabtree that he is best suited to come in at 3 WR situations. Thats what most rookie WRs do anyways. Like I said, Crabtree is more highly regarded than most of the rookie WRs I listed, and they had very good rookie seasons.

Ruskell's criteria for his picks are that they go to a big school, play against big competition, and contribute for more than just one break out year. He likes guys who have proven they can consistently play at a high level. I think Crabtree fits that criteria.

Fact is, you are really struggling to find an argument.

GohawksGo
01-27-2009, 03:05 PM
I think the Hawks should pick Cabtree

gpngc
01-27-2009, 03:28 PM
I think the Hawks should pick Cabtree

I think this is probably the best argument I've heard. Completely agree. There really isn't much more to say.

I also never said I am for the Tree pick so he can contribute immediately. Sure I'd like him to, but I don't think at all he'll walk right in and be an elite WR. I do think in year two or three he would become that.

I want him because I believe he can become a great player in this league and a staple of our receiving corps for years to come.

About the Ruskell-trend stuff... it just doesn't matter what he's done here. There is a first time for everything and we've never seen him in the top five. It is very easy to take a "safe" pick at the end of round one. When you have the shot at potential star players in the top five you can't be too scared to pull the trigger. The #s do indicate that there is a chance for highly picked WRs to bust. There is also a chance they become GREAT players.

I trust our personnel guys to make the right decision in the case of Crabtree and ultimately select him, as I believe (only my opinion that "coincidentally" is shared by most who follow football) that he will be a great player in this league down the road (hopefully he can contribute in his rookie year too).

jballa838
01-27-2009, 05:44 PM
couple things.

you mentioned the WRs that made an immediate impact. Thats great and all, but corners have actually had more of an impact, with guys like Revis, Talib, DRC, McKelvin, Flowers, Jenkins and others starting immediately. None of those were top 5 picks, but they are all solid corners.

Last years draft had zero first round WR's so this is hard to judge, but none drafted are their teams #1s. take it for what it's worth.

and I lost my train of though. GO SEAHAWKS.

summond822
01-28-2009, 01:49 PM
couple things.

you mentioned the WRs that made an immediate impact. Thats great and all, but corners have actually had more of an impact, with guys like Revis, Talib, DRC, McKelvin, Flowers, Jenkins and others starting immediately. None of those were top 5 picks, but they are all solid corners.

Last years draft had zero first round WR's so this is hard to judge, but none drafted are their teams #1s. take it for what it's worth.

and I lost my train of though. GO SEAHAWKS.

Your 100% right about the corners. That's ultimately why I think that Jenkins is a much better pick. He would be able to step in and start from day one.

Also, you have to look at the players in front of the WR's who made an impact. Outside of Jackson, every other team had an impact WR in front of the player they drafted.

I think we may only end up seeing two WR's drafted in the first this year.

I g2g right now, but before I leave, I'll say that Jenkins is my personal pick, but at the moment, Oher is the likely pick.

Geo
01-28-2009, 05:09 PM
I also think Seattle drafts Malcolm Jenkins, and then takes a WR later on in the following rounds.

I think the big question to ask though, do you like a duo of say Malcolm Jenkins & Hakeem Nicks/Brian Robiskie better than a duo of Michael Crabtree & Darius Butler/Jarius Byrd?

The good thing though, it's pretty close either way. Very close actually, I'm actually hard-pressed to pick one.

It won't turn out like Miami Dolphins thinking that Teddy Ginn & John Beck were a better duo than Brady Quinn & a 2nd round pick. Which is laughable.

cacksman
01-28-2009, 10:10 PM
Your 100% right about the corners. That's ultimately why I think that Jenkins is a much better pick. He would be able to step in and start from day one.

Also, you have to look at the players in front of the WR's who made an impact. Outside of Jackson, every other team had an impact WR in front of the player they drafted.

I think we may only end up seeing two WR's drafted in the first this year.

I g2g right now, but before I leave, I'll say that Jenkins is my personal pick, but at the moment, Oher is the likely pick.

Which of those corners came in and started immediately? I'm thinking Revis and no one else. Maybe a couple of them were starting later in the season but not immediately.

We've also been over this with WRs. I had a better list of rookie WRs who came in and put up good #s their first season. If you are looking for immediate impact(at least now days) WR is better than CB.

jballa838
01-28-2009, 10:36 PM
Which of those corners came in and started immediately? I'm thinking Revis and no one else. Maybe a couple of them were starting later in the season but not immediately.

We've also been over this with WRs. I had a better list of rookie WRs who came in and put up good #s their first season. If you are looking for immediate impact(at least now days) WR is better than CB.
DRC, McKelvin, Talib and Flowers all start I believe. granted Royal and DeSean both tore it up, but thats a solid list either way.

EDIT: I missed the word immedately. I think DRC did and maybe Flowers, but Revis is the best comparison to what we'd be getting from Jenkins in theory.

cacksman
01-28-2009, 11:36 PM
DRC, McKelvin, Talib and Flowers all start I believe. granted Royal and DeSean both tore it up, but thats a solid list either way.

EDIT: I missed the word immedately. I think DRC did and maybe Flowers, but Revis is the best comparison to what we'd be getting from Jenkins in theory.

That said, there is still probably a bigger list of WRs who came in and played very well their rookie season than CBs. So I just dont like that argument.

If you think Jenkins would be a good pick, that is fine. In my opinion, I wouldnt spend another high pick on a CB when we have Trufant and 2 other young, high picks with potential on the team.

summond822
01-29-2009, 04:02 PM
The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to think we take Oher. He went to the Senior Bowl and competed, which is very important in Ruskell's mind. He may have to be brought along slowly, but he has a nasty streak and I think that he would be a good fit.

I am seriously disappointed with Jennings, and as far as I'm concerned, I really don't care if I ever see him play another down in Seattle.

The biggest impact a lot of rookie CB's have is if they are able to get picks. If they show the knack for being a ball hawk in college, then they generally are able to get a couple of picks as rookies. That said, we do need to upgrade our CB position (height wise). A bigger physical corner would be a nice complement to Trufant and Wilson. We do need to address that early.

Just going with my feeling right now, I think they go:
1. Trade down - Oher (Or even if they stay @ 4)
2. Percy Harvin (pipe dream I know...) or Darius Butler/Sean Smith
(although if Alphonso Smith was there they may have to take him. He is probably the best ballhawk in this draft and if he was two-three inches taller then we'd probably be talking about taking him at #4)
3. Brain Robiskie

cacksman
01-29-2009, 07:52 PM
I am seriously disappointed with Jennings, and as far as I'm concerned, I really don't care if I ever see him play another down in Seattle.

The biggest impact a lot of rookie CB's have is if they are able to get picks. If they show the knack for being a ball hawk in college, then they generally are able to get a couple of picks as rookies. That said, we do need to upgrade our CB position (height wise). A bigger physical corner would be a nice complement to Trufant and Wilson. We do need to address that early.


No we don't. I don't know if you are just trying to argue with me or if you just have no clue. Trufant and Jennings are both 5'11". That is average to above average for CBs. Champ Bailey is listen at 6'0", Asante Samuel is 5'10", Terrence Newman is 5'11", Cortland Finnegan is 5'10", Ronde Barber is 5'10", the list goes on and on. We DO NOT need to get bigger. We actually are above average in height on a lot of great corners. I can guarantee you we wont draft CB in the first 3 rounds.

summond822
01-30-2009, 01:23 PM
No we don't. I don't know if you are just trying to argue with me or if you just have no clue. Trufant and Jennings are both 5'11". That is average to above average for CBs. Champ Bailey is listen at 6'0", Asante Samuel is 5'10", Terrence Newman is 5'11", Cortland Finnegan is 5'10", Ronde Barber is 5'10", the list goes on and on. We DO NOT need to get bigger. We actually are above average in height on a lot of great corners. I can guarantee you we wont draft CB in the first 3 rounds.

There is a difference between being listed at 5'11 and playing like your 5'11. I don't know what it is about Jennings, but he constantly gets beat be receivers who aren't much taller than him going up over him. We're not just talking elite WR's (Fitz & Boldin) either. We don't have a truly physical corner, and I think we need one to create match up problems against guys who don't handle getting jammed off the line very well. Wilson plays bigger than he is, but he doesn't have the body to get physical with a lot of receivers. Our corners are more finesse guys than physical guys.

What fits the profile of a Tampa 2 corner? Cause I am trying to picture it right now, but I'm not sure if it's right...

What I am picturing is corners that are supposed to be physical at the line of scrimmage. So a bigger, more physical CB would be a likely pick. However, we need to replace Brian Russel at safety first. It's really gonna depend on value at the position.

cacksman
01-30-2009, 10:19 PM
There is a difference between being listed at 5'11 and playing like your 5'11. I don't know what it is about Jennings, but he constantly gets beat be receivers who aren't much taller than him going up over him. We're not just talking elite WR's (Fitz & Boldin) either. We don't have a truly physical corner, and I think we need one to create match up problems against guys who don't handle getting jammed off the line very well. Wilson plays bigger than he is, but he doesn't have the body to get physical with a lot of receivers. Our corners are more finesse guys than physical guys.

What fits the profile of a Tampa 2 corner? Cause I am trying to picture it right now, but I'm not sure if it's right...

What I am picturing is corners that are supposed to be physical at the line of scrimmage. So a bigger, more physical CB would be a likely pick. However, we need to replace Brian Russel at safety first. It's really gonna depend on value at the position.

Jennings is having the same problem that Trufant had early on in his career. He is always in position, he just doesnt make plays on the ball. Trufant was EXACTLY the same way years ago. I still think Jennings will make a very good corner, sooner rather than later. He just needs to learn to look back for the ball and be able to play the ball better and he will be good. He is always in great position.

Unless there is an amazing value somewhere, there is no way we draft a corner in the first 3 rounds. A safety however, is a likely pick.

Geo
01-30-2009, 11:29 PM
What fits the profile of a Tampa 2 corner? Cause I am trying to picture it right now, but I'm not sure if it's right...
Height doesn't matter as much weight because he must be a willing and physical tackler. It is critical in the scheme of the defense, he is attacking what is in front of him, whether that be a runner or receiver. Got to give up as few yards as possible and punish the opponent, like the rest of the defense.

Chances are, the guy isn't a burner. And in the classic/oft-mentioned example, actually doesn't have great long-speed (your 4.5something guys, etcetera). Although there are T2 corners who run sub-4.5 really, but you definitely won't find any 4.3something burners, you know?

But what matters more are potential ball and recognition skills - especially when reading what's in front of him and breaking on the ball. Some teams may discount a player because he doesn't have great long-speed, but the T2 (even if they play a lot of Cover 3 to help out against the run) places more cornerback emphasis on defending the short and intermediate passes. Why? The potent pass rush of the front four forces the opposing quarterback to not hold onto the ball for long, and you have at least one safety with deep coverage responsibilities.

You can play man coverage with the Tampa 2, if you have the corners capable of doing it. I want to say Mora Jr. played man in San Francisco and Atlanta? though I don't recall exactly.

cacksman
02-02-2009, 12:43 PM
Michael Irvin on Crabtree
Posted by Eric Williams @ 09:01:13 am
With mock drafts currently listing the Seattle Seahawks drafting Michael Crabtree, I decided to try and roundup some more information on him. And who better to talk to but Michael Irvin, a friend of the Crabtree family and one of the people advising the redshirt sophomore as he prepares for the upcoming April draft.

Crabtree, who recently announced he's entering this year's draft, is working out with Olympic champion sprinter Michael Johnson and receiving advice from Irvin and Deion Sanders as he prepares for the combine and his pro day. Crabtree will not run the 40-yard dash at the combine, but will run at his Pro Day.

[More:]

Even after the gaudy numbers and spectacular plays Crabtree has put together over his college career, and his two Fred Biletnikoff awards as the best college in the country, there are still lingering questions about the talented receiver.

Is he fast enough?

Is he injury prone?

Is he a system player?

Irvin addressed some of those issues in a conversation I had with him during Super Bowl week.

“I think he’s going to be a phenomenal player in this league, but he has to fall into the right system,” Irvin said. “You cannot put a big guy like Crabtree in a system that caters to small receivers, what I call a scat system. You have to put him in a system where his size and strength can be used to his advantage.

“This is what confuses me a lot of times. When you talk about players and where they would play and how would they perform, people tend to think that you can take any player and play him anywhere, if he’s a true player. But true success comes when you put a player in a system that fits his talent. And his talent, he’s a big guy. So put him in a timing offense. Let him run some out routes, timing routes. Get the ball in his hands and let these DBs fall off of him because he’s such a big, strong runner. He reminds me a lot of Anquan Boldin. And I love Boldin. He’s a beast. And so is Crabtree.

“In this game now, when you’ve got a guy who can run like that, go and get the ball and you can’t touch him after five yards anymore? Oh God, that’s advantage offense all the way right there.”

Not necessarily a burner himself, but now in the Hall of Fame and considered one of the best receivers to play the game, Irvin said the speed question should be considered in a larger, overall perspective.

Irvin talked about game speed, and maintaining speed over the course of the game. He said some guys are running 4.4 40-yard dashes at the beginning of the game, but their speed decreases through the course of the contest and they’re slower in the fourth quarter. Irvin believes that Crabtree has the kind of endurance and strength to maintain his speed throughout the game, and that he makes plays with the game on the line in the fourth quarter.

“The difference between a 4.7 and a 4.5 (is this),” Irvin said, quickly snapping his fingers twice. “You can barely get it on your hands if you pressed your thumb and pressed it again. … And we discount game speed, and we discount strength.

“I don’t just want to know your speed in the first quarter. I want to know your speed in the fourth quarter because I’m not winning any games in the first quarter. This guy, Michael Crabtree has fourth quarter speed.”

He also said Crabtree would be a good fit in the West Coast offense because of his ability to run after the catch, and compared Crabtree’s running ability to Jerry Rice and Terrell Owens, who both played in the West Coast offense in San Francisco. Irvin joked that he wished he would have had a chance to play in the West Coast offense, but couldn’t look back with too much disappointment because he has three Super Bowl rings.

“That system fits,” Irvin said. “That’s a timing system that allows him to put the ball in his hands as early as you can and let him go do what he can do with it. And you know he has some RAC ability -- some run after catch. So for him, that’s a great system.”

Irvin talked about the reality TV show he’ll host, which pits six receivers against six defensive backs for a chance to earn a spot on the Dallas Cowboys’ 80-man training camp roster

gpngc
02-02-2009, 03:07 PM
Quick question to the those on the Jenkins bandwagon (who have now somehow manipulated more than half of the mock-makers into believing we'll pass on Crabtree):

Would you feel confident with Josh Wilson starting the season at CB?

I think this is an important question, and I think the FO will answer this question with a resounding "yes" after the improvement last year and decide not to draft a CB.

If your answer is "no" I really don't care why because we did not have access to the film that shows how he REALLY played. All we saw was when he was thrown at.

I just think its early to strip a guy of his shot at being a solid starting player after just two years and some nice progress.

jballa838
02-02-2009, 03:17 PM
I guess thats the real question. I am really at a loss for what we do with this pick.

summond822
02-02-2009, 08:34 PM
The more I think about this pick, the more I see them going OT. A scheme corner doesn't make sense at 4, but I just don't see Crabtree still. Irvin can talk Crabtree up all he wants, but I still have trouble seeing him as being worth the #4 overall pick. Now if the Seahawks traded down to say 7 or later, then I could see Crabtree. Top 5 though...just seems kinda early to me. My big problem with Crabtree isn't the Seahawks taking him...it's taking him at #4 where he's going to be costing you probably close to a Terrell Owens/Randy Moss type of player.

Jason Smith is by far my favorite OT and I think he would be worth the #4 overall pick, but I think that Michael Oher is going to be the selection come draft day.

Safety is a bigger need than corner by far. I am still upset about Mays going back to school...the Seahawks probably would have jumped all over him at 4...and he could have replaced Russell immediately and we would have had a legitamate FS...

gpngc
02-03-2009, 12:28 AM
LOL. SO TELL THE 75% of NFLDC MOCKERS THIS!

Do you guys realize how many people are giving us Malcolm Jenkins now? I really don't think we will ever consider him at #4...

I agree that Mays was a guy I would've liked because we need a safety. OT or QB isn't bad either. I just don't think we should draft a CB that high at all.

summond822
02-03-2009, 03:58 PM
LOL. SO TELL THE 75% of NFLDC MOCKERS THIS!

Do you guys realize how many people are giving us Malcolm Jenkins now? I really don't think we will ever consider him at #4...

I agree that Mays was a guy I would've liked because we need a safety. OT or QB isn't bad either. I just don't think we should draft a CB that high at all.

It doesn't matter what you tell them. About 60% still give us Crabtree, 30% give us Jenkins, and everybody else gives us Andre Smith...

Jenkins I stilll think is a legitamate shut-down corner, but in the Tampa 2 scheme, it's not a priority to have shut-down corners. If they had stayed with their vanilla cover 2, then yeah Jenkins would have definately gotten serious consideration.

I would still like them to go defense, but the only other players on the defensive side remotely close to being worth the pick are Aaron Curry (who could be gone anyways by #4) and whoever your top DE is. They won't take Curry, and taking Lawrence Jackson last year pretty much rules out paying top 5 money to a DE. I still think it is early for Raji, but I could see Ruskell reaching to get him.

The only player I am comfortable with the Seahawks taking @ 4 is an OT. No offense to Sanchez or Stafford, but taking one of them that early is going to be a huge mistake with the normal fan. It would almost be like we just pushed Hasselbeck off of a cliff.

Unless we trade down, I think that OT is the direction we go. Course, I think that Ruskell will manage to find a way to trade down. I have this nasty little feeling that he is going to trade to Philadelphia for their firsts...

EDIT: Just found out that we are only $9 million under the cap this year. How much do you think this affects our draft strategy?

gpngc
02-03-2009, 10:16 PM
It doesn't matter what you tell them. About 60% still give us Crabtree, 30% give us Jenkins, and everybody else gives us Andre Smith...

Jenkins I stilll think is a legitamate shut-down corner, but in the Tampa 2 scheme, it's not a priority to have shut-down corners. If they had stayed with their vanilla cover 2, then yeah Jenkins would have definately gotten serious consideration.

I would still like them to go defense, but the only other players on the defensive side remotely close to being worth the pick are Aaron Curry (who could be gone anyways by #4) and whoever your top DE is. They won't take Curry, and taking Lawrence Jackson last year pretty much rules out paying top 5 money to a DE. I still think it is early for Raji, but I could see Ruskell reaching to get him.

The only player I am comfortable with the Seahawks taking @ 4 is an OT. No offense to Sanchez or Stafford, but taking one of them that early is going to be a huge mistake with the normal fan. It would almost be like we just pushed Hasselbeck off of a cliff.

Unless we trade down, I think that OT is the direction we go. Course, I think that Ruskell will manage to find a way to trade down. I have this nasty little feeling that he is going to trade to Philadelphia for their firsts...

EDIT: Just found out that we are only $9 million under the cap this year. How much do you think this affects our draft strategy?

-If we lose one or both (could possibly release JP) of our OLBs, that becomes something we would look to address. D.D. Lewis could re-sign and take over one starting spot for a lot less money.

-DT may be OK even when/if we lose Rocky Bernard.

-I don't think losing Engram will affect our draft plans at all. We could use at least one WR, and probably two would be ideal.

-Losing Weaver and Morris definitely means we look at RB. I think we'll let both walk.

-Losing Ray Willis would make OT an even more immediate need for the depth factor.

As far as adding free agents I don't think we'll do much besides a role player here and there- especially if we can lock up Hill. If not, maybe we'll get one starting quality guy in free agency.

jballa838
02-03-2009, 10:52 PM
ANYONE Want to help me in the Forum Offseason? Looking for ASST guys.

summond822
02-04-2009, 01:40 PM
-If we lose one or both (could possibly release JP) of our OLBs, that becomes something we would look to address. D.D. Lewis could re-sign and take over one starting spot for a lot less money.

-DT may be OK even when/if we lose Rocky Bernard.

-I don't think losing Engram will affect our draft plans at all. We could use at least one WR, and probably two would be ideal.

-Losing Weaver and Morris definitely means we look at RB. I think we'll let both walk.

-Losing Ray Willis would make OT an even more immediate need for the depth factor.

As far as adding free agents I don't think we'll do much besides a role player here and there- especially if we can lock up Hill. If not, maybe we'll get one starting quality guy in free agency.

Releasing Peterson...seriously? Where'd you here that? If we don't resign Hill we could be in trouble...

I don't think Bernard is coming back to Seattle.

Engram would be nice to have back next year. He may only play for a couple more years, but he is a great security blanket at WR. But your right, they are probably going to be looking at drafting a replacement.

We have to resign Weaver. He is essential to this team.

Willis impressed me this season. I'd like to see him come back, but it could be hard to retain someone who has shown the ability to play at LT, perhaps long term someday.

We don't really have the cap room to play around much in FA. That number will be even lower if we manage to resign Hill.

I'm not sure about how the rookie contracts work, but it's should be a huge cap hit. Can the Seahawks actually afford to draft @ 4 with that cap number? btw they are 26th in the league in cap space.
ANYONE Want to help me in the Forum Offseason? Looking for ASST guys.

I don't really understand...but I am on almost every day so I guess I could help out once in a while.

EDIT: Just found something saying that we won't be an exclusive ZBS team. Knapp wants to keep defenses guessing.

gpngc
02-04-2009, 07:10 PM
ANYONE Want to help me in the Forum Offseason? Looking for ASST guys.

What can I do to help?

jballa838
02-04-2009, 07:22 PM
What can I do to help?
I don't know enough about the whole team down the depth chart and to make decisions. Multiple minds are better than one. And I have school during the day, so you could send in picks if you were on and I wasn't. Plus, you are all very wise which always helps.

OneToughGame
02-05-2009, 02:24 AM
Releasing Peterson...seriously? Where'd you here that? If we don't resign Hill we could be in trouble...

I don't think Bernard is coming back to Seattle.

Engram would be nice to have back next year. He may only play for a couple more years, but he is a great security blanket at WR. But your right, they are probably going to be looking at drafting a replacement.

We have to resign Weaver. He is essential to this team.

Willis impressed me this season. I'd like to see him come back, but it could be hard to retain someone who has shown the ability to play at LT, perhaps long term someday.

We don't really have the cap room to play around much in FA. That number will be even lower if we manage to resign Hill.

I'm not sure about how the rookie contracts work, but it's should be a huge cap hit. Can the Seahawks actually afford to draft @ 4 with that cap number? btw they are 26th in the league in cap space.


I don't really understand...but I am on almost every day so I guess I could help out once in a while.

EDIT: Just found something saying that we won't be an exclusive ZBS team. Knapp wants to keep defenses guessing.

Knapp also wants to "dumb it down" so it's easier for them. This will help Spencer a **** load lol. Is Hill worth the money it's going to cost to resign him? I mean, do you think he can play SLB (if at all) at a level worth the contract for when Peterson is done/cut?

summond822
02-05-2009, 05:14 PM
Knapp also wants to "dumb it down" so it's easier for them. This will help Spencer a **** load lol. Is Hill worth the money it's going to cost to resign him? I mean, do you think he can play SLB (if at all) at a level worth the contract for when Peterson is done/cut?

I actually believe that Hill is good enough to play any of the LB positions. However, he isn't going to rush the passer in the same way as Peterson. Of course, Peterson is a freakish athlete. His main abilility is to get after the QB. Hill is just a complete LB. He's physical and he knocks guys out of the game. The Seahawks don't have the depth to lose both Hill and Peterson at LB.

Losing one of the two would be a big loss, losing both would be almost like the Steve Hutchinson deal... (except it is easier to replace pro bowl LB's than it is to replace pro bowl G's IMO).

gpngc
02-09-2009, 02:29 PM
In an effort to beat a dead horse, here is an excerpt from a chat with ESPN's Steve Muench about Michael Crabtree. All Muench does is break down film and write about it (his work is bland and un-entertaining but he probably has the most credibility of any draft analyst at ESPN simply because he actually studies film):

David (Austin): Steve, love the stuff! How high are you on Crabtree? Most pundits seem to have him as the best overall prospect in this class...what are your thoughts about him? Thanks!

Steve Muench: David I just wrote him up and he really isn't all that fast but he is so quick and fluid for a 6-foot-3 receiver it's scary. In addition, his football I.Q. appears to be off the charts in my opinion. He excels at finding soft spots in zone coverage.

Steve Muench: BTW, I am one of those people who think he's the top prospect in this draft.

He also talks about how Malcolm Jenkins would be better suited as a FS (I agree). If we do consider Jenkins, I would guess it would be to play safety, not corner.

summond822
02-09-2009, 06:30 PM
In an effort to beat a dead horse, here is an excerpt from a chat with ESPN's Steve Muench about Michael Crabtree. All Muench does is break down film and write about it (his work is bland and un-entertaining but he probably has the most credibility of any draft analyst at ESPN simply because he actually studies film):



He also talks about how Malcolm Jenkins would be better suited as a FS (I agree). If we do consider Jenkins, I would guess it would be to play safety, not corner.

I am pretty much out of steam when it comes to debating Michael Crabtree. Nothing I say will convince you that we shouldn't take him. Pretty much what he says is exactly what Crabtree does. Take him at 4? No. Take him later? Yes. My big problem has always been taking him at 4.

If Jenkins is able to play FS, then he would fill perhaps the biggest problem on our team. Do you finally think that Jenkins is a viable pick now?

Cicero
02-09-2009, 09:49 PM
We aren't going to waste the #4 pick on a CB who we are going to convert to FS.

Since 1991 there have been a grand total of 2 safeties who were top 5 picks. I can see the argument for taking him as a corner, but as a FS? No.

jballa838
02-09-2009, 11:20 PM
Crabtree is the definition of enigma. Starting to feel better about it though.

gpngc
02-10-2009, 12:05 AM
When the Rams trade/cut Holt we are going to have to sweat it out with TWO teams in front of us potentially going after Tree.

I still maintain that he would be the best pick for the Chiefs which scares me (Assuming they don't love Sanchez, who I have absolutely no read on at this point).

Cicero
02-10-2009, 02:25 AM
When the Rams trade/cut Holt we are going to have to sweat it out with TWO teams in front of us potentially going after Tree.

I still maintain that he would be the best pick for the Chiefs which scares me (Assuming they don't love Sanchez, who I have absolutely no read on at this point).
I really do think the odds are in favor of the Chiefs taking him.

OneToughGame
02-10-2009, 03:13 AM
Stole this off of a Seahawks forum I am on (Thanks for posting this F12 if you check this site ever)

http://www.seahawks.com/media-lounge/audio/tim-ruskell-press-conference/d0ccf393-ea93-4ce8-a5ff-dd7264ddd884

31:22 "Ive never been a fan of the high offensive lineman".

37:10 "Our guys have done a great job in the 4th round...That seems to be our offensive line round...Thats what leans into my philosophy"

"You don't have to take these guys high if you're a well coached group and you work together...Offensive line is about continuity and I think Solari does a great job with that"

Now this is a twist :o Lol.

Cicero
02-10-2009, 06:37 AM
Stole this off of a Seahawks forum I am on (Thanks for posting this F12 if you check this site ever)

http://www.seahawks.com/media-lounge/audio/tim-ruskell-press-conference/d0ccf393-ea93-4ce8-a5ff-dd7264ddd884

31:22 "Ive never been a fan of the high offensive lineman".

37:10 "Our guys have done a great job in the 4th round...That seems to be our offensive line round...Thats what leans into my philosophy"

"You don't have to take these guys high if you're a well coached group and you work together...Offensive line is about continuity and I think Solari does a great job with that"

Now this is a twist :o Lol.
Oh gosh...

gpngc
02-10-2009, 01:33 PM
31:22 "Ive never been a fan of the high offensive lineman".


He's a fan of the high LB apparently...

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZing.

summond822
02-10-2009, 03:15 PM
Stole this off of a Seahawks forum I am on (Thanks for posting this F12 if you check this site ever)

[b]http://www.seahawks.com/media-lounge/audio/tim-ruskell-press-conference/d0ccf393-ea93-4ce8-a5ff-dd7264ddd884

31:22 "Ive never been a fan of the high offensive lineman".

Now this is a twist :o Lol.

Um...wow. I don't really believe Ruskell on that. Considering that he took Chris Spencer earlier than he should have when he got here.

I've never been a fan of taking RB's in round one, but there are circumstances when you gotta go against that and take one.

Right now, I am starting to warm to Crabtree because I don't see him failing in the NFL. He may never be a truly elite guy, but he will probably be decent.

As for Kansas City taking Crabtree, doubtful. If they don't address their defense then they are idiots. Pioli is not going to waste a major rebuilding draft by going with Crabtree. Orakpo, Jenkins, or Curry I could see, but if he takes offense it better be QB cause otherwise it's a stupid move.

I'm see St. Louis taking Crabtree over Kansas City. It would give them a replacement for Issac Bruce and an eventual successor to Holt.

If the Seahawks don't take Crabtree at 4, I don't see im getting past Cincinnati.

Right now it's looking like it's going to be a two horse race between Crabtree and Jenkins. I wouldn't rule out Michael Oher though.

cacksman
02-10-2009, 07:21 PM
I am pretty much out of steam when it comes to debating Michael Crabtree. Nothing I say will convince you that we shouldn't take him. Pretty much what he says is exactly what Crabtree does. Take him at 4? No. Take him later? Yes. My big problem has always been taking him at 4.

If Jenkins is able to play FS, then he would fill perhaps the biggest problem on our team. Do you finally think that Jenkins is a viable pick now?

Um no. You dont take a guy that high to convert him to FS. Unless you are Al Davis and you take Michael Huff at like 7. How did that work out for them?

Jenkins doesnt even have a true position. People seem torn on where he should play. We will not draft him.

IMO it is going to be Crabtree unless he is gone, then it will be a LT.

summond822
02-10-2009, 09:03 PM
Um no. You dont take a guy that high to convert him to FS. Unless you are Al Davis and you take Michael Huff at like 7. How did that work out for them?

Jenkins doesnt even have a true position. People seem torn on where he should play. We will not draft him.

IMO it is going to be Crabtree unless he is gone, then it will be a LT.

I disagree with you saying that Jenkins doesn't have a true position. He is a CB until he proves he can't be. Then if he doesn't work out, we convert him to a safety like the Cardinals did with Rolle. Then we get a S who actually has ball and cover skills.

IMO it's Oher.

OneToughGame
02-10-2009, 09:21 PM
I disagree with you saying that Jenkins doesn't have a true position. He is a CB until he proves he can't be. Then if he doesn't work out, we convert him to a safety like the Cardinals did with Rolle. Then we get a S who actually has ball and cover skills.

IMO it's Oher.

Oher at 4 is such a reach. If it's OL it's Monroe.

cacksman
02-10-2009, 10:03 PM
I disagree with you saying that Jenkins doesn't have a true position. He is a CB until he proves he can't be. Then if he doesn't work out, we convert him to a safety like the Cardinals did with Rolle. Then we get a S who actually has ball and cover skills.

IMO it's Oher.

2 posts above you said you think its a 2 way race between Crabtree and Jenkins. You change your mind every hour, how can anyone take what you say seriously?

summond822
02-11-2009, 01:37 PM
2 posts above you said you think its a 2 way race between Crabtree and Jenkins. You change your mind every hour, how can anyone take what you say seriously?

If you take into account Ruskell's comments, then it looks like a two way race at 4. Jenkins or Crabtree.

I have been saying for while that the Seahawks will trade down, and ultimately I see the pick as being Oher.

Also, I think that the likelihood of taking Jenkins went down when he decided not to compete at the Senior Bowl. He is still much more likely to be taken than Crabtree IMO.

Sorry if it's confusing to you, but it really doesn't matter if you take me seriously or not. You obviously take me somewhat seriously or else you wouldn't bother commenting on almost every single post I make where I say the Hawks don't take Crabtree.

EDIT: I just found an article claiming the Seahawks are currently 20.3 million under the cap. With about 15 mil for free agents. I am not exactly sure what our cap number is right now...

Cicero
02-11-2009, 11:56 PM
The chances of finding someone who wants to trade up to #4 is highly improbable.

cacksman
02-12-2009, 12:36 PM
The chances of finding someone who wants to trade up to #4 is highly improbable.

Exactly, every team that drafts high would rather trade down and get more picks. The problem is they can't.

seahawkfanschill
02-12-2009, 12:54 PM
I dont understand why all seahawk fans have gottenon this bandwagon to say Josh Wilson cant get it done. He was one of our lone bright spot through out the year. Yea he had his missteps here and there but so did Trufant. I just think we need to look at the facts and stop just sayin things that have no basis.

"I went, read the article, read the comments. I also remember watching that game (The one in November against the Cardinals). Wilson got manhandled by Fitzgerald and Boldin. It's not really a question of his coverage ability, it's a question of his physical ability.

Wilson just doesn't have the body to be able to shut-down physical receivers. Granted, he isn't asked to a lot, but having another guy capable of shutting down WR's other than Trufant would be nice. Wilson is going to get pushed around a lot because of his size. He is probably best suited for being the nickelback."

When was he man handled...when he went for the pick on Boldin and just dropped it and Boldin caught it or when fitz and him had a jump ball and fitz caught it. So what I guess Wilson is the reason both of them were in the Pro Bowl and killin everyone in the playoffs too. Oh yea and Trufant did an excellent job shutting down fitz right I get it.

He doesnt have the body???? Yea how is that he has the same body type as Darnell Green and the Pro bowler Winfield from the Vikings not to say he is them but there are many players his size that have been shut down corners. Its amazing how we were ready to hand the keys to Jennings last year and Wilson comes and plays ten times better and we are ready to not give him a chance.

P.S. Why is he on kickoffs??? Have you seen him return??? How can you take him off without a capable replacement. He sparked a lot of offense for us. Without I dont know where we would have been,

gpngc
02-12-2009, 01:41 PM
I dont understand why all seahawk fans have gottenon this bandwagon to say Josh Wilson cant get it done. He was one of our lone bright spot through out the year. Yea he had his missteps here and there but so did Trufant. I just think we need to look at the facts and stop just sayin things that have no basis.

"I went, read the article, read the comments. I also remember watching that game (The one in November against the Cardinals). Wilson got manhandled by Fitzgerald and Boldin. It's not really a question of his coverage ability, it's a question of his physical ability.

Wilson just doesn't have the body to be able to shut-down physical receivers. Granted, he isn't asked to a lot, but having another guy capable of shutting down WR's other than Trufant would be nice. Wilson is going to get pushed around a lot because of his size. He is probably best suited for being the nickelback."

When was he man handled...when he went for the pick on Boldin and just dropped it and Boldin caught it or when fitz and him had a jump ball and fitz caught it. So what I guess Wilson is the reason both of them were in the Pro Bowl and killin everyone in the playoffs too. Oh yea and Trufant did an excellent job shutting down fitz right I get it.

He doesnt have the body???? Yea how is that he has the same body type as Darnell Green and the Pro bowler Winfield from the Vikings not to say he is them but there are many players his size that have been shut down corners. Its amazing how we were ready to hand the keys to Jennings last year and Wilson comes and plays ten times better and we are ready to not give him a chance.

P.S. Why is he on kickoffs??? Have you seen him return??? How can you take him off without a capable replacement. He sparked a lot of offense for us. Without I dont know where we would have been,

I agree with you. I've stated the same before. His size is not ideal, but I still think he can be a good player in this league and the idea that we need to upgrade him at this stage of his development is one I find silly.

And people just need to realize that:
a) pass defense is HARD!
b) playing CB is HARD!

There is a reason why CBs come and go in the league so much. It's such a fickle position. One year a guy is considered great because of luck and interceptions and the next year he's a bum (D-Hall, Cromartie, Smoot, plenty moore). My guess is this will happen to Cortland Finnegan.

Sure it's nice to say you have a shut-down CB but in reality most corners get beat by most WRs. That's just the nature of the position. The key is finding ways to put your CBs in a position to have success (improved offense, pass rush, run D, etc.)

summond822
02-12-2009, 08:24 PM
Well, if you think that Wilson and Jennings are the answer, lets take Orakpo or Everette Brown. Our pass rush sucked last year, that should give our CBs a chance to show that they aren't busts right?

The best corners around the league, and considered shut-down corners, are guys who get interceptions. I envy the Chargers, you may say Cromartie was a bum, but he has crazy ball skills, better than some WR's. You can't teach that. He will be successful for years to come because of them. Jennings hasn't shown the ability (ever) to get interceptions. Wilson flashed a little at the end of the season, but I am still not sold on him. Is Wilson better than Jennings? Yes. Should he be the starter going into next season? Maybe.

I can honestly say that I would rather take either one of those guys (Brown or Orakpo) over Crabtree, Jenkins, or any OT. They are going to likely be elite pass rushers in the league (better than Chris Long anyways). The thing is, we won't take them because we drafted Lawrence Jackson last year, who I don't think will ever be capable of getting to the QB consistently.

gpngc
02-12-2009, 08:30 PM
Well, if you think that Wilson and Jennings are the answer, lets take Orakpo or Everette Brown. Our pass rush sucked last year, that should give our CBs a chance to show that they aren't busts right?

The best corners around the league, and considered shut-down corners, are guys who get interceptions. I envy the Chargers, you may say Cromartie was a bum, but he has crazy ball skills, better than some WR's. You can't teach that. He will be successful for years to come because of them. Jennings hasn't shown the ability (ever) to get interceptions. Wilson flashed a little at the end of the season, but I am still not sold on him. Is Wilson better than Jennings? Yes. Should he be the starter going into next season? Maybe.

I can honestly say that I would rather take either one of those guys (Brown or Orakpo) over Crabtree, Jenkins, or any OT. They are going to likely be elite pass rushers in the league (better than Chris Long anyways). The thing is, we won't take them because we drafted Lawrence Jackson last year, who I don't think will ever be capable of getting to the QB consistently.

Disagree. Orakpo and Brown could both be decent players but they aren't worth the $ at #4. And for someone so against Josh Wilson because of his physical size, Orakpo and Brown would be even worse. Plus we have 100 DEs.

LOL the ONLY acceptable pick is Crabtree unless...

-we fall in love with a QB.
-we move Jenkins to FS.

summond822
02-12-2009, 08:40 PM
Disagree. Orakpo and Brown could both be decent players but they aren't worth the $ at #4. And for someone so against Josh Wilson because of his physical size, Orakpo and Brown would be even worse. Plus we have 100 DEs.

LOL the ONLY acceptable pick is Crabtree unless...

-we fall in love with a QB.
-we move Jenkins to FS.

So your saying they don't even consider an OT there then? Monroe or Jason Smith are both worth that pick.

If we take Jenkins then he will get his shot at corner. If he fails we move him to FS. That would be a 2-3 year experiment though (a time period which is pretty much up for Jennings).

Course, we could always take Sanchez. Stafford is pretty much a lock to Detroit, especially with that comment about playing there.

gpngc
02-12-2009, 08:46 PM
So your saying they don't even consider an OT there then? Monroe or Jason Smith are both worth that pick.

If we take Jenkins then he will get his shot at corner. If he fails we move him to FS. That would be a 2-3 year experiment though (a time period which is pretty much up for Jennings).

Course, we could always take Sanchez. Stafford is pretty much a lock to Detroit, especially with that comment about playing there.

No I don't think we consider an OT. I believe Ruskell's comments about waiting for OLine. Jones + Lock are fine for next year. We could move Andre Smith inside for a year, but I don't think we look at him for offense (plus he doesn't seem like a Ruskell guy). J. Smith and Monroe are worth the 4th pick but they probably can't move inside. Besides, why take a guard in the top five? Who are we- the Raiders? Lock + Walt should be good for at least 2 more years.

Cicero
02-13-2009, 02:59 AM
No I don't think we consider an OT. I believe Ruskell's comments about waiting for OLine. Jones + Lock are fine for next year. We could move Andre Smith inside for a year, but I don't think we look at him for offense (plus he doesn't seem like a Ruskell guy). J. Smith and Monroe are worth the 4th pick but they probably can't move inside. Besides, why take a guard in the top five? Who are we- the Raiders? Lock + Walt should be good for at least 2 more years.

Not to mention we have a ton of money invested in the both of them.

cacksman
02-13-2009, 10:24 AM
I can honestly say that I would rather take either one of those guys (Brown or Orakpo) over Crabtree, Jenkins, or any OT. They are going to likely be elite pass rushers in the league (better than Chris Long anyways). The thing is, we won't take them because we drafted Lawrence Jackson last year, who I don't think will ever be capable of getting to the QB consistently.

Wow.

You show me time and time again that you don't know how the game of football works. You are ready to give up on Lawrence Jackson after 1 season???? I'm sure you thought Mario Williams was a bust after his rookie season too.

It's gonna most likely be Crabtree or an OT. I can guarantee you it wont be Jenkins or a DE. :)

Cicero
02-13-2009, 11:01 AM
Wow.

You show me time and time again that you don't know how the game of football works. You are ready to give up on Lawrence Jackson after 1 season???? I'm sure you thought Mario Williams was a bust after his rookie season too.

It's gonna most likely be Crabtree or an OT. I can guarantee you it wont be Jenkins or a DE. :)
Ya, DE's almost never look great their first season, no matter who it is.

summond822
02-13-2009, 06:20 PM
Wow.

You show me time and time again that you don't know how the game of football works. You are ready to give up on Lawrence Jackson after 1 season???? I'm sure you thought Mario Williams was a bust after his rookie season too.

It's gonna most likely be Crabtree or an OT. I can guarantee you it wont be Jenkins or a DE. :)

And you show me time and time again I'm glad I don't know you in real life (for various reasons, one is that we would probably always be trying to kill each other).

Lets put it this way, I was never a fan of the Jackson pick. I don't think he'll ever be a good pass rusher. That was my opinion when they took him. He is more of a two down DE who should be good against the run, but only able to produce an occasional pass rush.

As for preferring Orakpo and Brown, yes I prefer them because getting to the QB is a key to having a successful defense in the NFL. Kerney is our only consistent threat as a pass rusher. He went down, our pass rush was non-existent.

Just because I prefer Orakpo or Brown doesn't mean the Seahawks will take them. I am a realist. I went through the viable options at 4. The only ones in my mind are Jenkins or an OT. (You know my feelings on Crabtree so just don't even bother)

Also Ruskell will not draft Andre Smith. He's an underclassman who has some character concerns and he is probably a RT in the pros.

Jones is probably done after this season. I just have this feeling that he's going to call it quits, whether he wants to or not. He's not the type of guy who will hang around and drag out his career once he is clearly over the hill.

If the Seahawks rebound this next season (which I think they will) and Jones retires (which I think he will), we won't be in a position next year to take his replacement. So OT absolutely has to be considered there. Losing Jones will be a huge setback for this franchise. We still haven't replaced Hutchinson. How long is it going to take to replace Jones?

cacksman
02-13-2009, 07:39 PM
And you show me time and time again I'm glad I don't know you in real life (for various reasons, one is that we would probably always be trying to kill each other).

Lets put it this way, I was never a fan of the Jackson pick. I don't think he'll ever be a good pass rusher. That was my opinion when they took him. He is more of a two down DE who should be good against the run, but only able to produce an occasional pass rush.

As for preferring Orakpo and Brown, yes I prefer them because getting to the QB is a key to having a successful defense in the NFL. Kerney is our only consistent threat as a pass rusher. He went down, our pass rush was non-existent.

Just because I prefer Orakpo or Brown doesn't mean the Seahawks will take them. I am a realist. I went through the viable options at 4. The only ones in my mind are Jenkins or an OT. (You know my feelings on Crabtree so just don't even bother)

Also Ruskell will not draft Andre Smith. He's an underclassman who has some character concerns and he is probably a RT in the pros.

Jones is probably done after this season. I just have this feeling that he's going to call it quits, whether he wants to or not. He's not the type of guy who will hang around and drag out his career once he is clearly over the hill.

If the Seahawks rebound this next season (which I think they will) and Jones retires (which I think he will), we won't be in a position next year to take his replacement. So OT absolutely has to be considered there. Losing Jones will be a huge setback for this franchise. We still haven't replaced Hutchinson. How long is it going to take to replace Jones?

I actually agree that taking an OT would not be a bad pick at all. I still think we go Crabtree, as do many other people covering the draft. Some players I could absolutely not see Ruskell taking is another CB like Jenkins or a DE because then there would be a huge cluster#### there. I see them taking Crabtree, unless he is gone then maybe choosing an OT. The only other picks that I could see MAYBE happening is if Stafford fell and Ruskell liked what he saw, or if a DT like Raji explodes up the boards in the offseason and looks like a stud.

HawkEye30
02-13-2009, 08:49 PM
hey i was just wondering what you guys would think of this, last year the redskins took two wide receivers in the second round and they played very little roles in the season could you see us picking crabtree in the first and say maybe britt, heyward-bey, or hakeem nicks if any are there and maybe relesing some of the young guys we have now; jw what you guys would think of that

cacksman
02-13-2009, 09:22 PM
hey i was just wondering what you guys would think of this, last year the redskins took two wide receivers in the second round and they played very little roles in the season could you see us picking crabtree in the first and say maybe britt, heyward-bey, or hakeem nicks if any are there and maybe relesing some of the young guys we have now; jw what you guys would think of that

I really do not think so. WR is arguably our biggest need, but we have other needs to address as well.

summond822
02-14-2009, 11:31 AM
hey i was just wondering what you guys would think of this, last year the redskins took two wide receivers in the second round and they played very little roles in the season could you see us picking crabtree in the first and say maybe britt, heyward-bey, or hakeem nicks if any are there and maybe relesing some of the young guys we have now; jw what you guys would think of that

The Seahawks can't afford to take two WR's in this draft. They need to upgrade other positions, and don't have the wiggle room to take two guys who probably won't make that big of an impact as rookies, rookie WR's rarely contribute consistently.

Also, some of the other positions they need to upgrade aren't very deep so they have to take the marquee talent at the top of the draft.

I really do not think so. WR is arguably our biggest need, but we have other needs to address as well.

This is probably the first time we've agreed on something this offseason...scary thought...(I still don't think WR is our biggest need though)

gpngc
02-15-2009, 05:34 PM
hey i was just wondering what you guys would think of this, last year the redskins took two wide receivers in the second round and they played very little roles in the season could you see us picking crabtree in the first and say maybe britt, heyward-bey, or hakeem nicks if any are there and maybe relesing some of the young guys we have now; jw what you guys would think of that

Honestly it wouldn't surprise me that much.

Branch is one more missed game away from being cut altogether probably, Engram is as good as gone.

I think the team has 0 faith in the youngsters.

So what do we have for the future?

Nate Burleson
Koren Robinson (If we re-sign him AND he stays off the sauce.)

I'm not a big Britt guy and he doesn't seem like a Ruskell fit. If Harvin or Nicks was there, I would actually hope we'd take the second WR.

In the end I think our 37th pick turns out to either:
A) Be a safety like Chung, W. Moore, or I'm hoping Delmas.
B) Be traded in conjunction with a later pick to move up for a RB.

And maybe not in round two but I do think we draft another WR at some point after Crabtree WHO WE ALREADY HAVE (YES!). Maybe a quicker slot guy to replace Engram. Stroughter, Dillard, Iglesias, McKinley, Collie are all options after round two.

summond822
02-18-2009, 07:27 PM
Just realized that we haven't even began to discuss Crabtree not running at the combine. Am I the only one who is upset by this? We have seen time and time again that team's love players who are willing to go out and compete when they aren't at 100%, look at John Carlson last year. By going out and competing even though he was no where near 100%, he managed to get the Seahawks to fall in love with him.

I am not really buying that his ankle is keeping him from running the 40. I could honestly care less about the other drills. We already know what he is good at. I want to see him run the 40.

If he had went out and ran a low 4.6 on a bum ankle, my reservations about taking him at 4 would lessen considerably. Barring injury, the worst that could happen to him is he doesn't run well, but he has an excuse. He might as well run...

Are you guys with me on this or are you fine with his decision? Sorry, had to bring this up, since it's been eating at me ever since I saw the story.

HawkEye30
02-18-2009, 07:49 PM
obviously im dissappointed but at least hell give us all something to think about when the combine is over, although im not sure when TT's pro day is. i dont think it says anything about his toughness because im pretty sure he played 2 or 3 games with the ankle sprain, but from the business side of it makes sense to get it completely healed so he can shave every tenth of a second of his forty

gpngc
02-19-2009, 02:13 PM
I don't even care what he runs in the 40 let alone when and where he runs it.

HawkEye30
02-19-2009, 05:14 PM
monte kiffin said it the best "tape doesnt lie", crabtree could probably run in the high 4's and still not drop out of the top 10, if we dont pick him the raiders will probably grab him at 8

summond822
02-19-2009, 07:39 PM
monte kiffin said it the best "tape doesnt lie", crabtree could probably run in the high 4's and still not drop out of the top 10, if we dont pick him the raiders will probably grab him at 8

The question with Crabtree has always been speed. He needed to run. It showed him training on NFL total access, and he didn't appear to have an ankle brace on. If a team like Seattle, which places value on guys who compete (see Carlson, John), sees that Crabtree could have ran, and his ankle was healthy, then that is going to hurt him when it comes draft time.

I believe that the Raider's will take Maclin @ 7, regardless of whether or not Crabtree is on the board. Maclin has the speed that Davis loves in his WR's. Crabtree doesn't.

cacksman
02-20-2009, 01:11 PM
The question with Crabtree has always been speed. He needed to run. It showed him training on NFL total access, and he didn't appear to have an ankle brace on. If a team like Seattle, which places value on guys who compete (see Carlson, John), sees that Crabtree could have ran, and his ankle was healthy, then that is going to hurt him when it comes draft time.

I believe that the Raider's will take Maclin @ 7, regardless of whether or not Crabtree is on the board. Maclin has the speed that Davis loves in his WR's. Crabtree doesn't.

Another myth courtesy of summond. Sure DAvis likes speed, but he also likes a big physical presence. He signed Javon Walker to a huge contract last year and he is definitely not known for his speed.

And Crabtree DID NOT need to run. If he wasnt 100% and ran a sub par 40 time, his stock would drop regardless of if he was hurt. The list goes on and on for top 10 draft picks refusing to run at the combine. It is not a big deal at all. You're funny.

summond822
02-20-2009, 04:20 PM
Another myth courtesy of summond. Sure DAvis likes speed, but he also likes a big physical presence. He signed Javon Walker to a huge contract last year and he is definitely not known for his speed.

And Crabtree DID NOT need to run. If he wasnt 100% and ran a sub par 40 time, his stock would drop regardless of if he was hurt. The list goes on and on for top 10 draft picks refusing to run at the combine. It is not a big deal at all. You're funny.

In the draft Davis usually springs for the most physically talented player, regardless of production. Crabtree has the body to be a great NFL WR, but he doesn't have all of the measurables that Davis loves so much. Maclin is more of a prototypical Davis guy than Crabtree.

Jason Smith has really impressed me, and the more I watch him, the more I can see him being taken at 4, regardless of what Ruskell has said. Sanchez is also impressing me, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Seahawks take him.

Babylon
02-20-2009, 04:25 PM
By all accounts Crabtree's ankle isnt 100%, as long as he runs by draft day that is fine with me.

Also from what i could gather he measured at almost 6-1 1/4 and 215 lbs at the combine. Perfect size for a WR in my book.

summond822
02-20-2009, 05:06 PM
By all accounts Crabtree's ankle isnt 100%, as long as he runs by draft day that is fine with me.

Also from what i could gather he measured at almost 6-1 1/4 and 215 lbs at the combine. Perfect size for a WR in my book.

Have you been able to find an official link with the measurement, because I'm looking, but the best I found was rotoworld.

Also, 6-1 1/4 is not 6-3, which is what he was listed at, and everyone assumed he was at.

Babylon
02-20-2009, 05:33 PM
Have you been able to find an official link with the measurement, because I'm looking, but the best I found was rotoworld.

Also, 6-1 1/4 is not 6-3, which is what he was listed at, and everyone assumed he was at.


Not sure where i saw it but seemed like it was legit. I knew all along he wasnt 6-3 so i'm not dissapointed at that, i'm also not going to try to compare him to fitzgerald as the last word because that isnt fair either.

Cicero
02-20-2009, 06:35 PM
Here it is.

http://www.stlouisrams.com/article/70763/

cacksman
02-20-2009, 07:58 PM
In the draft Davis usually springs for the most physically talented player, regardless of production. Crabtree has the body to be a great NFL WR, but he doesn't have all of the measurables that Davis loves so much. Maclin is more of a prototypical Davis guy than Crabtree.

Jason Smith has really impressed me, and the more I watch him, the more I can see him being taken at 4, regardless of what Ruskell has said. Sanchez is also impressing me, and I wouldn't be surprised to see the Seahawks take him.


Again, you are a fool if you think Davis would rather have Maclin than Crabtree.

And Sanchez at #4? That's a joke, right? If Ruskell did that he would probably be fired immediately. Sanchez has started 1 year and he is a Junior. The list of QBs to come in and have a good career coming out as a Junior is very small. I'm glad Ruskell isnt stupid. You are the first person I've seen that would even consider us taking him at 4.

summond822
02-20-2009, 08:28 PM
Again, you are a fool if you think Davis would rather have Maclin than Crabtree.

And Sanchez at #4? That's a joke, right? If Ruskell did that he would probably be fired immediately. Sanchez has started 1 year and he is a Junior. The list of QBs to come in and have a good career coming out as a Junior is very small. I'm glad Ruskell isnt stupid. You are the first person I've seen that would even consider us taking him at 4.

:eek: Your opinion means so much to me that I stay up at night and lose sleep over it. :rolleyes:

And also, you have to consider everyone. Sanchez is not a bad player, in fact, he is probably going to be better than Stafford. He doesn't have the accuracy issues and he has been getting groomed to play in the NFL by one of the premier coaches in the country since he stepped onto campus at USC. No offense to Georgia, but they aren't USC, and they don't have the system in place to prepare guys for the NFL like USC does. Don't be surprised if/when Sanchez passes Stafford.

Mike Leach said it best when he was trying to talk up Graham Harrel, "Guys generally don't improve their accuracy from college to the NFL." And Stafford still has a long way to go before he irons out all of his kinks. The Brett Favre comparisons are accurate, because he'll make a throw that amazes you and then he'll do something incredibly stupid. The big question to whether Sanchez and Stafford succeed is if they are placed in a situation where they have the time to grow into NFL QB's.

Sanchez would be a good fit for the Seahawks and would ensure that there isn't much of an in-between when Hasselbeck retires due to age or injury. The other option is to wait a year and take a QB, and next years crop of signal callers doesn't take the breath away, in fact, it may be even weaker than this years.

EDIT: Here's the Crabtree story from the official NFL site.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/20/crabtree-doesnt-quite-measure-up/

cacksman
02-21-2009, 11:48 AM
:eek: Your opinion means so much to me that I stay up at night and lose sleep over it. :rolleyes:

And also, you have to consider everyone. Sanchez is not a bad player, in fact, he is probably going to be better than Stafford. He doesn't have the accuracy issues and he has been getting groomed to play in the NFL by one of the premier coaches in the country since he stepped onto campus at USC. No offense to Georgia, but they aren't USC, and they don't have the system in place to prepare guys for the NFL like USC does. Don't be surprised if/when Sanchez passes Stafford.

Mike Leach said it best when he was trying to talk up Graham Harrel, "Guys generally don't improve their accuracy from college to the NFL." And Stafford still has a long way to go before he irons out all of his kinks. The Brett Favre comparisons are accurate, because he'll make a throw that amazes you and then he'll do something incredibly stupid. The big question to whether Sanchez and Stafford succeed is if they are placed in a situation where they have the time to grow into NFL QB's.

Sanchez would be a good fit for the Seahawks and would ensure that there isn't much of an in-between when Hasselbeck retires due to age or injury. The other option is to wait a year and take a QB, and next years crop of signal callers doesn't take the breath away, in fact, it may be even weaker than this years.

EDIT: Here's the Crabtree story from the official NFL site.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/20/crabtree-doesnt-quite-measure-up/

USC makes great QBs like Leinart, Booty? Their QBs are also playing with the most talented offensive teammates in the league. Sanchez has also only started one year and the list of Junior QBs to be successful is very small.

Leach was doing just that, trying to talk up Graham Harrell from being a late round pick. Why? Because he was his coach.

And next year's class being weaker? Sam Bradford would have likely been taken before both Stafford and Sanchez this year. When he has an extra year of exp and is coming out as a Senior, he will be light years ahead of these guys in development.

cacksman
02-21-2009, 11:52 AM
EDIT: Here's the Crabtree story from the official NFL site.
http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/20/crabtree-doesnt-quite-measure-up/

And I guess you didnt read the quote from our own coach saying that Crabtree has by far the longest arms of any WR in the draft and that should cancel out anything he is missing in height.

summond822
02-21-2009, 12:25 PM
USC makes great QBs like Leinart, Booty? Their QBs are also playing with the most talented offensive teammates in the league. Sanchez has also only started one year and the list of Junior QBs to be successful is very small.

Leach was doing just that, trying to talk up Graham Harrell from being a late round pick. Why? Because he was his coach.

And next year's class being weaker? Sam Bradford would have likely been taken before both Stafford and Sanchez this year. When he has an extra year of exp and is coming out as a Senior, he will be light years ahead of these guys in development.
You seem to forget this guy called Carson Palmer, who was a hell of a lot better than Booty or Leinart. Sanchez was compared to Palmer at USC from day one and his numbers were similar, if not slightly better (can't really recall them off the top of my head), as Palmer's.

Also, we say that Sanchez had a better supporting cast, but how many of his WR's, TE's, or RB's are going to be in the first three rounds this year? Probably none. Whereas Stafford had Moreno and Massoqoi who will both be selected in the first three rounds and a phenomenal freshman in Green. Who had the better supporting cast in college?

What Leach said was true though, rarely do guys improve their accuracy from college football to the NFL. Regardless of who it is.

I said class, not player. Bradford would have challenged them this year, but overall, next year's class is not looking good. Get over the top player and look at it as a class, which is what I said.

summond822
02-21-2009, 12:28 PM
And I guess you didnt read the quote from our own coach saying that Crabtree has by far the longest arms of any WR in the draft and that should cancel out anything he is missing in height.

Your right I didn't read that quote because I haven't found it. If you want to post a link to it, I'd be happy to look at it.

Just another Crabtree note, he has a stress fracture in his foot and is going to be out for 10 weeks. That means that he won't be running at his pro day, and he won't be healthy pretty much until the NFL draft.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/21/crabtree-needs-surgery-for-stress-fracture-in-foot/

Overall, this has been a bad weekend for Crabtree.

jballa838
02-21-2009, 12:33 PM
cacks, Bradford was a RS Soph this year. so he will be a JR next year. And I hate Stafford. Sanchez ftw.

cacksman
02-21-2009, 04:15 PM
You seem to forget this guy called Carson Palmer, who was a hell of a lot better than Booty or Leinart. Sanchez was compared to Palmer at USC from day one and his numbers were similar, if not slightly better (can't really recall them off the top of my head), as Palmer's.

Also, we say that Sanchez had a better supporting cast, but how many of his WR's, TE's, or RB's are going to be in the first three rounds this year? Probably none. Whereas Stafford had Moreno and Massoqoi who will both be selected in the first three rounds and a phenomenal freshman in Green. Who had the better supporting cast in college?

What Leach said was true though, rarely do guys improve their accuracy from college football to the NFL. Regardless of who it is.

I said class, not player. Bradford would have challenged them this year, but overall, next year's class is not looking good. Get over the top player and look at it as a class, which is what I said.

Would you have mentioned Sanchez at this point last year? Doubt it. There is always players that come out and play well. So you absolutely cannot say QBs will be weak next year.

Oh yes, Carson Palmer the guy who came out as a Senior and started for 3 years at USC, I forgot he was so similar to Sanchez. You are a hipocrit when you talk about how great USC is at developing QBs then you conveniently skip over the last 2 QBs to come out of the school and go straight and talk about the one that has had success.

You suck at arguing.

cacksman
02-21-2009, 04:20 PM
Your right I didn't read that quote because I haven't found it. If you want to post a link to it, I'd be happy to look at it.

Just another Crabtree note, he has a stress fracture in his foot and is going to be out for 10 weeks. That means that he won't be running at his pro day, and he won't be healthy pretty much until the NFL draft.

http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/21/crabtree-needs-surgery-for-stress-fracture-in-foot/

Overall, this has been a bad weekend for Crabtree.

You actually did post a link to it. Click on it and go to Get the whole story and scroll down.

That really sucks for Crabtree to be injured like that but it just goes to show people like you that he wasnt taking the weekend off running because he was afraid of competition, he was truly hurt and running would have been horrible for his stock. Last year Johnathan Stewart had the same surgery and was still drafted at 13, which is a lot higher than he was projected. This won't hurt Crabtree as much as some think.

summond822
02-21-2009, 05:58 PM
Would you have mentioned Sanchez at this point last year? Doubt it. There is always players that come out and play well. So you absolutely cannot say QBs will be weak next year.

Oh yes, Carson Palmer the guy who came out as a Senior and started for 3 years at USC, I forgot he was so similar to Sanchez. You are a hipocrit when you talk about how great USC is at developing QBs then you conveniently skip over the last 2 QBs to come out of the school and go straight and talk about the one that has had success.

You suck at arguing.

I don't understand how I suck at arguing where for like the your last five posts against me you have failed to even remotely make an argument. I'm sorry if I'm not changing your opinion (not really), but it's your opinion and my ability to change it has nothing to do with arguing. Everytime I bring up a fact, you just skip over and ignore it.

No, I wouldn't have metioned Sanchez at this point last year because:
1) I didn't figure that he would be coming out, I actually posted that the recent trend at USC lead to him going back to school.
2) I didn't think that the Seahawks would need a QB.

Another thing about USC, the last couple of years they haven't been an elite team because of their offense, it's their defense which has been special and is churning out the players that are competing at the senior bowl year after year. Their offense hasn't been anywhere near as talented since they lost Bush, White, and Leinart.

However, I knew that Sanchez was going to be special. Everyone knew it, and they had him pegged on their 2010 draft watch boards.

You say I am a hypocrite, but I was pointing out that you skipped the guy that he compared most favorably too. Then you call me on skipping the two that you already mentioned? Wow...now that hypocritical lol.

Leinart will be given one last chance to be a franchise QB, eventually, and nobody ever thought that Booty had the arm strength to play in the NFL. USC almost exclusively goes with the guy who has the most experience in the system, which is why Sanchez wasn't starting last year.

And Sanchez is a better pro prospect than either of them, and compares favorably to Carson Palmer. Deal with it.

You actually did post a link to it. Click on it and go to Get the whole story and scroll down.

That really sucks for Crabtree to be injured like that but it just goes to show people like you that he wasnt taking the weekend off running because he was afraid of competition, he was truly hurt and running would have been horrible for his stock. Last year Johnathan Stewart had the same surgery and was still drafted at 13, which is a lot higher than he was projected. This won't hurt Crabtree as much as some think.

I was busy at the time so I didn't have time to go and read through the whole article. I found it when I read the entire thing. However, the big difference between Stewart and Crabtree is that Stewart had already posted a 40 time before his injury was found. Crabtree hasn't, and won't.

Also, Crabtree didn't know about the stress fracture, and wasn't going to run because of being "90%". Now he is out for 10 weeks. And it can definitely hurt Crabtree's chances of coming to Seattle. There are factors in recovering from a surgery that are out of his control. There might be an infection from the surgery and require another surgery, leading to him being out even longer. Now, team's are going to have to wonder if he's going to become injury prone or if he'll ever be the same as he was before the injury.

I was going to point this out before it was found out that Crabtree has a legitimate reason not to run, but it's a quote by Bill Polian:

Any time a player doesn't run at the Combine, it raises a yellow flag. We have a saying: Fast guys run fast.

cacksman
02-21-2009, 06:19 PM
I don't understand how I suck at arguing where for like the your last five posts against me you have failed to even remotely make an argument. I'm sorry if I'm not changing your opinion (not really), but it's your opinion and my ability to change it has nothing to do with arguing. Everytime I bring up a fact, you just skip over and ignore it.

No, I wouldn't have metioned Sanchez at this point last year because:
1) I didn't figure that he would be coming out, I actually posted that the recent trend at USC lead to him going back to school.
2) I didn't think that the Seahawks would need a QB.

Another thing about USC, the last couple of years they haven't been an elite team because of their offense, it's their defense which has been special and is churning out the players that are competing at the senior bowl year after year. Their offense hasn't been anywhere near as talented since they lost Bush, White, and Leinart.

However, I knew that Sanchez was going to be special. Everyone knew it, and they had him pegged on their 2010 draft watch boards.

You say I am a hypocrite, but I was pointing out that you skipped the guy that he compared most favorably too. Then you call me on skipping the two that you already mentioned? Wow...now that hypocritical lol.

Leinart will be given one last chance to be a franchise QB, eventually, and nobody ever thought that Booty had the arm strength to play in the NFL. USC almost exclusively goes with the guy who has the most experience in the system, which is why Sanchez wasn't starting last year.

And Sanchez is a better pro prospect than either of them, and compares favorably to Carson Palmer. Deal with it.



I was busy at the time so I didn't have time to go and read through the whole article. I found it when I read the entire thing. However, the big difference between Stewart and Crabtree is that Stewart had already posted a 40 time before his injury was found. Crabtree hasn't, and won't.

Also, Crabtree didn't know about the stress fracture, and wasn't going to run because of being "90%". Now he is out for 10 weeks. And it can definitely hurt Crabtree's chances of coming to Seattle. There are factors in recovering from a surgery that are out of his control. There might be an infection from the surgery and require another surgery, leading to him being out even longer. Now, team's are going to have to wonder if he's going to become injury prone or if he'll ever be the same as he was before the injury.

I was going to point this out before it was found out that Crabtree has a legitimate reason not to run, but it's a quote by Bill Polian:

Your post says a whole lot of nothing. You are just making up stuff to argue with me. When I said you wouldnt have even mentioned Sanchez at this point last year, I meant that no one thought he would have this good of a year and come out early and be a projected 1st rounder. Just like next year there will be another guy that has a good year, comes out and gets drafted high that you never expected.

And I fail to see how Palmer and Sanchez are so similar. Palmer was a started for 3 years and came out as a senior with a ton of experience, Sanchez is pretty much the opposite with very little experience. That does not bode well for him having success in the pros. If you think he will overcome those odds and become one of the very few players to do that, then thats fine. But history disagrees with you. Sanchez is also 6'2 which is below average for an NFL QB.

As far as Crabtree. Pro scouts all around the league have already been on record saying that this should not drop his stock. Just look up the stories about his injury at the combine. Again, another case of you making up things to argue with.

summond822
02-21-2009, 08:33 PM
Your post says a whole lot of nothing. You are just making up stuff to argue with me. When I said you wouldnt have even mentioned Sanchez at this point last year, I meant that no one thought he would have this good of a year and come out early and be a projected 1st rounder. Just like next year there will be another guy that has a good year, comes out and gets drafted high that you never expected.

And I fail to see how Palmer and Sanchez are so similar. Palmer was a started for 3 years and came out as a senior with a ton of experience, Sanchez is pretty much the opposite with very little experience. That does not bode well for him having success in the pros. If you think he will overcome those odds and become one of the very few players to do that, then thats fine. But history disagrees with you. Sanchez is also 6'2 which is below average for an NFL QB.

As far as Crabtree. Pro scouts all around the league have already been on record saying that this should not drop his stock. Just look up the stories about his injury at the combine. Again, another case of you making up things to argue with.

Again, there you go just attacking me, instead of addressing the content in my post. You say I made stuff up, but your only saying that because you honestly don't have an argument against it and hate to admit when you are wrong. USC's offense was nowhere near as good as when Leinart was there, and there are such things as complications from surgery. Look at Tom Brady. He's had a couple additional surgery's to clear out infection. Anytime a player gets hurt and has to go under the knife, there's always the chance that things can go wrong in the recovery. For every guy that is able to come back ahead of schedule, there's at least one more who comes back behind schedule.

Just a side note, but Stafford came in at 6'2 as well.

Look at the numbers for Palmer his senior year and look at Sanchez's numbers for this last year. They are very similar, and both were better than Leinart's or Booty's senior year numbers. That's where the Palmer comparison comes from. And, the starting QB at USC is always going to get draft buzz. Last year would I have expected Sanchez to be a top 10 pick? No. But that's not the point. That's why we have a full season to evaluate players.

Using your argument, would you have mentioned Eugene Monroe, Aaron Curry, or B.J. Raji last year? The answer is no. These are guys who used this year to vault their way to the top of draft boards. So don't use the "you wouldn't have said this last year" argument. It's pointless. This is the present, that's ancient history in draft time. Crabtree also had nowhere near the hype he has right now at this point last year.

The big question with Crabtree this entire draft process was his speed. He still hasn't and will not post an official 40 time before the draft. So does that put his status at risk? Yes. People wanted to see if he was capable of running a 4.5-4.6 40. Now, we'll never know.

cacksman
02-21-2009, 11:12 PM
Again, there you go just attacking me, instead of addressing the content in my post. You say I made stuff up, but your only saying that because you honestly don't have an argument against it and hate to admit when you are wrong. USC's offense was nowhere near as good as when Leinart was there, and there are such things as complications from surgery. Look at Tom Brady. He's had a couple additional surgery's to clear out infection. Anytime a player gets hurt and has to go under the knife, there's always the chance that things can go wrong in the recovery. For every guy that is able to come back ahead of schedule, there's at least one more who comes back behind schedule.

Just a side note, but Stafford came in at 6'2 as well.

Look at the numbers for Palmer his senior year and look at Sanchez's numbers for this last year. They are very similar, and both were better than Leinart's or Booty's senior year numbers. That's where the Palmer comparison comes from. And, the starting QB at USC is always going to get draft buzz. Last year would I have expected Sanchez to be a top 10 pick? No. But that's not the point. That's why we have a full season to evaluate players.

Using your argument, would you have mentioned Eugene Monroe, Aaron Curry, or B.J. Raji last year? The answer is no. These are guys who used this year to vault their way to the top of draft boards. So don't use the "you wouldn't have said this last year" argument. It's pointless. This is the present, that's ancient history in draft time. Crabtree also had nowhere near the hype he has right now at this point last year.

The big question with Crabtree this entire draft process was his speed. He still hasn't and will not post an official 40 time before the draft. So does that put his status at risk? Yes. People wanted to see if he was capable of running a 4.5-4.6 40. Now, we'll never know.

You are completely rediculous. I'm sorry if you can't understand what I am saying, but you are arguing a point that I was trying to make. I KNOW that I wouldnt have mentioned Monroe, Curry, etc last year, THAT WAS THE POINT. You can't look at players now and say that there will be a weak class in any position next year, because of all the players that come out of nowhere and have good years. Which is why I argued with you when you said next year's QB class wont be as talented.

Again, stop comparing Sanchez to Palmer. Just because he had one good year, doesnt mean he will be as good as him. Palmer came out as a senior and had 3 full years of starting experience. Like I said, the list of QBs that come out as Juniors and has a successful career, is not very big. Sanchez has even less experience than most of those guys since he only started one year. I dont even want Stafford either. You are always talking about measurables and both QBs are below average in height.

And once again, you jump to conclusions and are wrong about Crabtree... AGAIN:

There's yet another twist in the Michael Crabtree story. The Texas Tech receiver talked to Dallas Morning News reporter Rick Gosselin this evening. Crabtree told Gosselin that he's had the fractured foot for a year, and he doesn't plan on having surgery.

He also reiterated that he plans to run in March.

"I don't know where that report came from," Crabtree told The Dallas Morning News. "It [stress fracture] has been there for about a year and it's never caused me any pain. I can play with it the rest of my life. It won't stop me from running. I'm going to run."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/stories/022209dnspocrabtree.3b3fb514.html

summond822
02-23-2009, 01:06 PM
You are completely rediculous. I'm sorry if you can't understand what I am saying, but you are arguing a point that I was trying to make. I KNOW that I wouldnt have mentioned Monroe, Curry, etc last year, THAT WAS THE POINT. You can't look at players now and say that there will be a weak class in any position next year, because of all the players that come out of nowhere and have good years. Which is why I argued with you when you said next year's QB class wont be as talented.

Again, stop comparing Sanchez to Palmer. Just because he had one good year, doesnt mean he will be as good as him. Palmer came out as a senior and had 3 full years of starting experience. Like I said, the list of QBs that come out as Juniors and has a successful career, is not very big. Sanchez has even less experience than most of those guys since he only started one year. I dont even want Stafford either. You are always talking about measurables and both QBs are below average in height.

And once again, you jump to conclusions and are wrong about Crabtree... AGAIN:

There's yet another twist in the Michael Crabtree story. The Texas Tech receiver talked to Dallas Morning News reporter Rick Gosselin this evening. Crabtree told Gosselin that he's had the fractured foot for a year, and he doesn't plan on having surgery.

He also reiterated that he plans to run in March.

"I don't know where that report came from," Crabtree told The Dallas Morning News. "It [stress fracture] has been there for about a year and it's never caused me any pain. I can play with it the rest of my life. It won't stop me from running. I'm going to run."

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/football/nfl/stories/022209dnspocrabtree.3b3fb514.html

Medical examiners at the combine said that it was a recent injury, so I'm not really putting a whole lot of stock in what Crabtree is saying. Shaun Alexander had a stress fracture in his foot, that was the main key in his downfall. So, I'm kinda doubting that Crabtree played the entire season with an untreated stress fracture. Doing things like that lead to worsening the injury, so Crabtree is either:
a) lying and trying to get teams to think he is a major tough guy or
b) he's telling the truth, in which case he shows a lack of intelligence by putting his entire future at stake.

How can Crabtree run in March when he is going to be out for 10 weeks recovering from the surgery? Serious questions about Crabtree's intelligence right now.

Your right, there may be QB's that come out of nowhere next year, but at the moment, the guys that are getting all of the publicity as the top QB's do not look like guys who are going to be good NFL QB's.

Look at the big picture here instead of just one season. This isn't just a team that has to reload, but also has to build for the future to avoid a let down. Drafting a WR does not do that. Look at Arizona. They had two of the best WR's in the game, and did it do them any good? No, because they didn't have a good team. Crabtree is the flasy pick, but he is also the wrong pick. WR is not a building block for a team, OT & QB are. I'd rather the Seahawks take Chris Wells than Crabtree (not endorsing it or expecting it, but my point of view), and this is coming from a guy who hates taking RB's in the first round. Would you rather have 1 or 2 good years with Crabtree and then have to wait until the Seahawks go through a rebuilding process of 3-4 years while the OT & QB they bring in to replace Hasselbeck & Jones grow into their positions? Or would you rather that the Seahawks build for the future, and have guys in place to step in immediately when Jones and Hasselbeck leave? I know where I stand, but it's obvious we don't share the same opinion.

EDIT: Just saw the thing about Crabtree deciding to have surgery after his pro day. Not a good decision IMO. I want to see him run the 40, but
1) He could easily do more damage to the fracture while training, therefore taking a 10 week healing process all the way up to the preseason at worst.
2) If he really wants to run, he should have ran at the combine and got his treatment started immediately. If he's a fast guy, it'll show. If not, it'll show as well. Putting off surgery is never a good idea, and as I mentioned above, doing so puts his entire future at risk.

This has nothing to do with my personal opinion of Crabtree, but my opinion on what a prospect should do if it is discovered they have a serious injury. Anytime there is a broken bone somewhere, it needs to be fixed. He isn't thinking about his future or his value to whatever team takes him. He needs to do that, and stop thinking about money. A rested, healthy Crabtree who doesn't run a 40 is more valuable than an injured Crabtree who can't contribute because he injured himself training for the 40.

cacksman
02-23-2009, 08:08 PM
You have no idea what is going on with Crabtree. Don't begin to question his intelligence when that has never been a knock on him at all. He may have talked to doctors that say its not a huge deal/ This is not the same injury that Alexander had. It is however, the same injury that Stewart had and if i'm not mistaken he also ran a 40 and then had surgery and came back and did very well his rookie season.

And this team is not in rebuilding mode like the Cardinals were. We have a much better team now than Arizona had these past few years so your argument about that is moot.

And just because we may need a QB in 3-4 years doesnt mean we need to get one now. Especially since there are no special QBs in this draft. There are no Matt Ryan type talents(whom I thought was going to be a very good QB last year). I already stated I wouldnt have a problem with taking a tackle. At this point IMO there are maybe only 2 OTs on the same talent level as Crabtree and they are Jason Smith and maybe Eugene Monroe and they both could be taken by our pick. The other 2 are not worth a top 5 pick.

And what Crabtree is doing is smart because he obviously has confidence in his ability to run a fast time and give scouts their 40 time they need, then getting surgery and being ready to TC.

gpngc
02-23-2009, 08:25 PM
[QUOTE=summond822;1508981] if it is discovered they have a serious injury. Anytime there is a broken bone somewhere, it needs to be fixed. /QUOTE]

Stress fracture isn't a serious injury. And don't be scared by the word fracture, there is an extremely low re-injury rate with a stress fracture from what I'm hearing.

Just as cacks said- J. Stewart had the same injury last year at this time and he's fine.

If he chose not to run you'd just be questioning his long speed. Sometimes I think he got this "stress" fracture from all the stress it's causing him to prove himself to Seahawks fans who are so deadset against him for no good reason.:eek:

And again, he's not even feeling any pain. He's going to run his 40, get the surgery, miss some time (that he would've missed anyway probably because of a holdout), and then hopefully be signed by TC.

summond822
02-23-2009, 08:36 PM
You have no idea what is going on with Crabtree. Don't begin to question his intelligence when that has never been a knock on him at all. He may have talked to doctors that say its not a huge deal/ This is not the same injury that Alexander had. It is however, the same injury that Stewart had and if i'm not mistaken he also ran a 40 and then had surgery and came back and did very well his rookie season.

And this team is not in rebuilding mode like the Cardinals were. We have a much better team now than Arizona had these past few years so your argument about that is moot.

And just because we may need a QB in 3-4 years doesnt mean we need to get one now. Especially since there are no special QBs in this draft. There are no Matt Ryan type talents(whom I thought was going to be a very good QB last year). I already stated I wouldnt have a problem with taking a tackle. At this point IMO there are maybe only 2 OTs on the same talent level as Crabtree and they are Jason Smith and maybe Eugene Monroe and they both could be taken by our pick. The other 2 are not worth a top 5 pick.

And what Crabtree is doing is smart because he obviously has confidence in his ability to run a fast time and give scouts their 40 time they need, then getting surgery and being ready to TC.


Stewart ran his 40 at the combine! Big difference. Taking a month to train and then run is just not smart. He's only concerned about one thing right now, how many more millions of dollars can he make by running a good 40. An athlete with as high of a profile as Crabtree would have made national news if he had a stress fracture, but all everybody knew was that he had an ankle injury. So, I am going to stay with that he didn't know about this stress fracture.

If he was confident in his ability to run a fast time he should have done it at the combine. He will likely not be able to participate fully in offseason camps, and that will set his progression back a while. He needs to get it taken care of and just go with it. The more he works out on it before surgery, the better the chance is that he aggravates it and it turns from a minor surgery and injury into a major one. Your talking about a month of intense training for the 40. This is dangerous for any prospect. Crabtree just needs to bite the bullet and get healthy.

If his gamble doesn't pay off, he runs a bad 40 or turns his injury into a major one, then he's looking at losing a lot of money and at least a couple of draft positions. He still thinks that he is the best prospect in this draft and is worth the #1 pick, and until he realizes that it is out of reach, he is going to do ridiculous things, like put his career at risk, to try to become #1.

gpngc
02-23-2009, 08:44 PM
He didn't know he had a stress fracture. That's how minor the injury is- it doesn't even hurt. He started to work out late because he tweaked his ankle and was recovering. The stress fracture came while he was working on his speed in the postseason (to appease all you speed freaks).

Seriously blasting a guy because "all he's worried about is millions" is just ridiculous. Any human being with a brain would be trying to improve their draft status and make more money however they could. He's a competitor by nature and wants to go #1 overall. Good. I want that on my team.

This is not an injury that will likely be re-aggravated. If you know a physical therapist or any sort of doctor just ask him/her about it I really don't want to go into detail.

I mean I don't know how else to say that this is definitely not a career-threatening risk. It's almost just as risky as running the 40 without the stress fracture...

BamaFalcon59
02-23-2009, 08:55 PM
Some people just look too hard for faults with players. They look for reasons to not like him.

cacksman
02-24-2009, 01:03 PM
Some people just look too hard for faults with players. They look for reasons to not like him.

Exactly....

summond822
02-24-2009, 03:12 PM
If the Seahawks draft Crabtree, and that's a big if in my book, I want him healthy from day one. Getting the surgery immediately and being able to go from the first minicamp is more valuable than being injured and still recovering from the surgery and falling behind.

All I have said, is that he needs to get healthy instead of risking injury by training for another month when he could use that month and come back 3-4 weeks earlier. I don't understand how your missing that. Everyone who loves Crabtree says look at the tape, and that his speed doesn't matter. However, you guys are now saying that he should run the 40 instead of getting surgery. I guess you guys would rather have an injured Crabtree that ran a 40instead of one who got the surgery immediately. Go figure.

cacksman
02-24-2009, 03:47 PM
My top 4 for the Seahawks:

1a. Michael Crabtree
1b. Jason Smith
3. Eugene Monroe
4. Brian Orakpo

IMO these are the only 4 players not named Curry(whom we dont need) that are worth a top 5 pick. Jenkins would have been close had he ran faster than a slow 40 for a CB. He is now projected by most to be a safety. And you don't draft a CB to switch to safety that high unless you want a bust like Micheal Huff.

summond822
02-24-2009, 04:01 PM
My top 4 for the Seahawks:

1a. Michael Crabtree
1b. Jason Smith
3. Eugene Monroe
4. Brian Orakpo

IMO these are the only 4 players not named Curry(whom we dont need) that are worth a top 5 pick. Jenkins would have been close had he ran faster than a slow 40 for a CB. He is now projected by most to be a safety. And you don't draft a CB to switch to safety that high unless you want a bust like Micheal Huff.

I'd rather take both Smith and Monroe over Crabtree. Everette Brown is an interesting guy who is a pure pass rusher, and I think by the end will be getting serious talk as a top 5 pick, and he probably fits our scheme better than Orakpo. Sanchez has to be there as well, since we don't know when we'll get another shot at a franchise QB.

But your right, Jenkins as a FS doesn't deserve a top 5 pick.

My top 6:
1. Jason Smith
2. Eugene Monroe
3. Michael Crabtree
4. Mark Sanchez
5. Everette Brown
6. Michael Oher

Babylon
02-24-2009, 04:39 PM
I'd rather take both Smith and Monroe over Crabtree. Everette Brown is an interesting guy who is a pure pass rusher, and I think by the end will be getting serious talk as a top 5 pick, and he probably fits our scheme better than Orakpo. Sanchez has to be there as well, since we don't know when we'll get another shot at a franchise QB.

But your right, Jenkins as a FS doesn't deserve a top 5 pick.

My top 6:
1. Jason Smith
2. Eugene Monroe
3. Michael Crabtree
4. Mark Sanchez
5. Everette Brown
6. Michael Oher

I think Jenkins would be a guy that could play some corner and then at some point fill some holes that are going to be coming up at safety.

We sure see the top players differently i wouldnt touch Brown and Oher but it's all good

summond822
02-24-2009, 06:40 PM
Just found this (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/02/24/crabtree-reconsidering-running-40-for-scouts/). Was watching NFL Total Access, and they say that Crabtree is reconsidering running the 40. Didn't catch it all, but Rod Woodson was saying that it would be a smart move to have the surgery now and be ready for training camp.

cacksman
02-24-2009, 08:41 PM
I'd rather take both Smith and Monroe over Crabtree. Everette Brown is an interesting guy who is a pure pass rusher, and I think by the end will be getting serious talk as a top 5 pick, and he probably fits our scheme better than Orakpo. Sanchez has to be there as well, since we don't know when we'll get another shot at a franchise QB.

But your right, Jenkins as a FS doesn't deserve a top 5 pick.

My top 6:
1. Jason Smith
2. Eugene Monroe
3. Michael Crabtree
4. Mark Sanchez
5. Everette Brown
6. Michael Oher

Please,tell me how Brown projects to our scheme better than Orakpo?

Orakpo- 6'3 263 4.70 31 reps 39.5" vertical jump (better than all but 3 WRs)
Brown- 6'2 256 4.73 26 reps (didnt jump)

Looks to me like Orakpo is bigger, faster, stronger, more athletic. Both players played in 4-3 I think, so tell me why should Brown be rated higher?

cacksman
02-25-2009, 12:00 AM
I'd rather take both Smith and Monroe over Crabtree. Everette Brown is an interesting guy who is a pure pass rusher, and I think by the end will be getting serious talk as a top 5 pick, and he probably fits our scheme better than Orakpo. Sanchez has to be there as well, since we don't know when we'll get another shot at a franchise QB.

But your right, Jenkins as a FS doesn't deserve a top 5 pick.

My top 6:
1. Jason Smith
2. Eugene Monroe
3. Michael Crabtree
4. Mark Sanchez
5. Everette Brown
6. Michael Oher

Did I mention your #4 was arrested for sexual assault (rape)? The last thing we need is another Jerramy Stevens. As if we needed another reason not to draft a QB high...

Cicero
02-25-2009, 12:29 AM
Did I mention your #4 was arrested for sexual assault (rape)? The last thing we need is another Jerramy Stevens. As if we needed another reason not to draft a QB high...

There wasn't even enough evidence to get it charges filed.

cacksman
02-25-2009, 12:30 PM
There wasn't even enough evidence to get it charges filed.


Did Stevens do time for the crap he pulled while at UW? It's amazing what scumbag athletes can get away with.

summond822
02-25-2009, 01:31 PM
Did Stevens do time for the crap he pulled while at UW? It's amazing what scumbag athletes can get away with.

All I can say is wow, so passionate about this. You say Sanchez is a scumbag, but just about everyone says that he is a high character guy. If there wasn't enough evidence to bring it to a case, I don't think that it is going to be held against him.

Brown may not project into our scheme better than Orakpo (based on your arguments), but he is more athletic, and he is younger so he does have more potential for growth. The 40 time is seperated by 3/100 of a second, that's really not much even for the NFL. How many times have we seen guys not do as well as others on the bench press and end up having better careers. Don't suppose you have their arm measurements?

cacksman
02-25-2009, 01:41 PM
All I can say is wow, so passionate about this. You say Sanchez is a scumbag, but just about everyone says that he is a high character guy. If there wasn't enough evidence to bring it to a case, I don't think that it is going to be held against him.

Brown may not project into our scheme better than Orakpo (based on your arguments), but he is more athletic, and he is younger so he does have more potential for growth. The 40 time is seperated by 3/100 of a second, that's really not much even for the NFL. How many times have we seen guys not do as well as others on the bench press and end up having better careers. Don't suppose you have their arm measurements?


Just because he was never tried doesnt mean he is innocent. He was arrested for sexual assault. I guess you didnt hear about Jerramy Stevens at UW, and I'm not even sure he was arrested. There was a HUGE article about it in the Seattle Times, look it up. The things a superstar college athlete can get away with is amazing.

Being one year younger means he has more potential to grow? I didnt realize 21 year olds were still growing more than 22 year olds. Sometimes the arguments you come up with are unreal.

Orakpo is more athletic than Brown. He is also bigger and stronger, even if they are the same speed. your one argument you made for Brown was that he was younger so he had more time to grow..... Ok guy. I'm still waiting for an argument for Brown that makes sense.

summond822
02-26-2009, 04:17 PM
Just because he was never tried doesnt mean he is innocent. He was arrested for sexual assault. I guess you didnt hear about Jerramy Stevens at UW, and I'm not even sure he was arrested. There was a HUGE article about it in the Seattle Times, look it up. The things a superstar college athlete can get away with is amazing.

Being one year younger means he has more potential to grow? I didnt realize 21 year olds were still growing more than 22 year olds. Sometimes the arguments you come up with are unreal.

Orakpo is more athletic than Brown. He is also bigger and stronger, even if they are the same speed. your one argument you made for Brown was that he was younger so he had more time to grow..... Ok guy. I'm still waiting for an argument for Brown that makes sense.

I am a Husky fan, so I heard all about what happened at the UW in that article. Comparing Jeremy Stevens to Mark Sanchez is like comparing apples to oranges. The UW program at that time was just a bunch of thugs who went out and tried to hurt people, it was an era of corruption that UW is still trying to recover from. The USC program doesn't stand for stuff like that, they are a class act, and I am sure team's will bring up Sanchez's history for him to explain what happened or if anything happened.

This is how I look at Brian Orakpo vs. Everette Brown. Orakpo has a higher floor, but Brown has a higher ceiling. There really isn't any valid arguments about who is higher than who, their pretty close together in terms of almost everything, so it is really just a matter of preference. You prefer Orakpo, I prefer Brown.

cacksman
02-26-2009, 04:42 PM
I am a Husky fan, so I heard all about what happened at the UW in that article. Comparing Jeremy Stevens to Mark Sanchez is like comparing apples to oranges. The UW program at that time was just a bunch of thugs who went out and tried to hurt people, it was an era of corruption that UW is still trying to recover from. The USC program doesn't stand for stuff like that, they are a class act, and I am sure team's will bring up Sanchez's history for him to explain what happened or if anything happened.

This is how I look at Brian Orakpo vs. Everette Brown. Orakpo has a higher floor, but Brown has a higher ceiling. There really isn't any valid arguments about who is higher than who, their pretty close together in terms of almost everything, so it is really just a matter of preference. You prefer Orakpo, I prefer Brown.


There really is no way to know what happened with Sanchez. He most likely wouldnt have been arrested if he was completely innocent. He was also suspended from the team. And in the articles of the arrest, it said this was one of the many incidents to happen to USC players within the last year. Class act, eh?

And please, please tell me how Brown has a higher ceiling. They both have similar athleticism (with Orakpo maybe being more athletic), and Orakpo is bigger and stronger. That tells me that he has a higher ceiling. Would like to hear your explaination.

ETA: Orakpo is ahead of Brown in every mock/rankings I have see thus far. And rightly so. Something tells me you just like to argue.

summond822
02-26-2009, 07:35 PM
There really is no way to know what happened with Sanchez. He most likely wouldnt have been arrested if he was completely innocent. He was also suspended from the team. And in the articles of the arrest, it said this was one of the many incidents to happen to USC players within the last year. Class act, eh?

And please, please tell me how Brown has a higher ceiling. They both have similar athleticism (with Orakpo maybe being more athletic), and Orakpo is bigger and stronger. That tells me that he has a higher ceiling. Would like to hear your explaination.

Compared to the "hood" that UW football became during that era, almost every team is a class act compared to them. However, there are questions about Sanchez, like you pointed out, we'll never really know unless he decides to come clean about it. However, character concerns have never entered the equation when people talk about Sanchez, so this could be similar to my hating on Crabtree, in that you just don't like Sanchez. And when you have that many high profile, superstars in one of the largest cities in the world, there are going to be a lot of things that go on, lots of temptations, especially if they are a football player at USC. I'm not excusing those athletes, but it is amazing at how well Carroll has been able to control them. It speaks volumes of how powerful he and that coaching staff are.

Here are two highlights from the same guy (DraftParty does excellent work). The original Brown vid I was gonna post was 9 minutes long, and I couldn't find anything for Orakpo of similar length, so I decided to go with videos made by the same user. Brown just looks like he plays faster than Orakpo. Watch for yourself. He also looks unblockable many times. He's ridiculous off the edge. Plus he slides over the guard and rushes the passer as well. Check it for yourself. Some of Brown's plays just make you stop and stare. Orakpo does a great job too, but I'm just in awe of some of the things Brown is able to do. I'd say his biggest flaw is that sometimes he gets too aggressive and fails to make the play.

Everette Brown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyX5mfb-eaA&feature=channel_page)
Brian Orakpo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZTelDHwUwY)

Check em both out and tell me what you think.

ETA: Orakpo is ahead of Brown in every mock/rankings I have see thus far. And rightly so. Something tells me you just like to argue.

You actually beat me to saying the same thing about you...

cacksman
02-26-2009, 10:14 PM
You actually beat me to saying the same thing about you...

When I have something to say, I back it up with actual evidence (stats, rankings, measurables, ect). You only have "hunches", tell me, why isnt Brown ranked ahead of Orakpo in most mocks instead of the other way around?

I think at one point you were comparing Crabtree to Jordan Kent and Mike Williams. I rest my case.

summond822
02-27-2009, 01:06 PM
When I have something to say, I back it up with actual evidence (stats, rankings, measurables, ect). You only have "hunches", tell me, why isnt Brown ranked ahead of Orakpo in most mocks instead of the other way around?

I think at one point you were comparing Crabtree to Jordan Kent and Mike Williams. I rest my case.

I notice how you don't deny you like to argue ;)

However, I was comparing them in terms of overall athleticism and size. They have similar types of builds (maybe not Mike Williams, but still), so comparing them is something that I'm allowed to do. Everytime I bring up facts, you just skip over them, so saying that I only use "hunches" is a complete falacy. I remember saying the reason they wouldn't take Crabtree was because they had bigger needs to address and I brought up several stats to back it up, but you and other people just decided to completely blow over those stats.

However, don't write off Kent just yet, he still hasn't reached his full potential yet.

BTW, did you watch the videos? I think most people are scared off by Brown because
1) he is FSU DE
2) he is younger than Orakpo, and slightly smaller

But watching the two highlight reels, I think that you can say that Brown has that "it" factor. He is primarily a speed rusher, but his first step is amazing, and it is probably one of the fastest in the draft.

cacksman
02-27-2009, 08:45 PM
I notice how you don't deny you like to argue ;)

However, I was comparing them in terms of overall athleticism and size. They have similar types of builds (maybe not Mike Williams, but still), so comparing them is something that I'm allowed to do. Everytime I bring up facts, you just skip over them, so saying that I only use "hunches" is a complete falacy. I remember saying the reason they wouldn't take Crabtree was because they had bigger needs to address and I brought up several stats to back it up, but you and other people just decided to completely blow over those stats.

However, don't write off Kent just yet, he still hasn't reached his full potential yet.

BTW, did you watch the videos? I think most people are scared off by Brown because
1) he is FSU DE
2) he is younger than Orakpo, and slightly smaller

But watching the two highlight reels, I think that you can say that Brown has that "it" factor. He is primarily a speed rusher, but his first step is amazing, and it is probably one of the fastest in the draft.

Kent was tendered at about the lowest one team can tender a player. If any team saw something from him, they would be able to get him for very cheap. Kent will most likely never be more than a #4 WR and that is being gracious.

I did watch both videos and to me they were very similar. Orakpo showed more of an ability to take on blockers and shrug them off. Brown just ran by his opposition and in the NFL it will be much harder to do that.

Orakpo has similar speed but is bigger and stronger. That is why he is ranked higher.

summond822
02-28-2009, 01:40 PM
Kent was tendered at about the lowest one team can tender a player. If any team saw something from him, they would be able to get him for very cheap. Kent will most likely never be more than a #4 WR and that is being gracious.

I did watch both videos and to me they were very similar. Orakpo showed more of an ability to take on blockers and shrug them off. Brown just ran by his opposition and in the NFL it will be much harder to do that.

Orakpo has similar speed but is bigger and stronger. That is why he is ranked higher.

It just looks to me like Brown has a much faster first step. That will be an asset in the NFL as well. They are very similar, but I don't really know why, but when I watch Brown play, I enjoy it a lot more than watching Orakpo play.

Orakpo does show an ability to take on blockers, but he never worked over the guard like Brown did. In the end they are both likely liabilities in the run game, and while the demand for pass rushers is at a premium right now, I don't see the Seahawks targeting a DE at 4 unless they trade Kerney.

But it is fun to talk about someone other than Crabtree.

Since the Chiefs just acquired Matt Cassel (for a second + other things I believe), I think that we should talk about how this is going to affect their draft strategy as well as ours.

Personally, I think that this increases the chances of them taking Curry if he is there, if not, they may look at Crabtree, Orakpo, or Brown. Cassel rules out taking Sanchez or Stafford definately. Perhaps a sleeper for them to choose would be Wells/Moreno, with LJ being upset and all.

The only way this could affect the Seahawks draft is if they took Crabtree, therefore eliminating WR as an option, and forcing the Seahawks to go Monroe/J. Smith or B.J. Raji.

cacksman
02-28-2009, 08:31 PM
It just looks to me like Brown has a much faster first step. That will be an asset in the NFL as well. They are very similar, but I don't really know why, but when I watch Brown play, I enjoy it a lot more than watching Orakpo play.

Orakpo does show an ability to take on blockers, but he never worked over the guard like Brown did. In the end they are both likely liabilities in the run game, and while the demand for pass rushers is at a premium right now, I don't see the Seahawks targeting a DE at 4 unless they trade Kerney.

But it is fun to talk about someone other than Crabtree.

Since the Chiefs just acquired Matt Cassel (for a second + other things I believe), I think that we should talk about how this is going to affect their draft strategy as well as ours.

Personally, I think that this increases the chances of them taking Curry if he is there, if not, they may look at Crabtree, Orakpo, or Brown. Cassel rules out taking Sanchez or Stafford definately. Perhaps a sleeper for them to choose would be Wells/Moreno, with LJ being upset and all.

The only way this could affect the Seahawks draft is if they took Crabtree, therefore eliminating WR as an option, and forcing the Seahawks to go Monroe/J. Smith or B.J. Raji.

I dont think the trade affects us at all. I didnt think they were going to take a QB anyways. I still think they will go Curry or Orakpo. Hopefully they do and we have our pick between Crabtree and one of the top 2 tackles.

summond822
03-01-2009, 12:20 PM
I dont think the trade affects us at all. I didnt think they were going to take a QB anyways. I still think they will go Curry or Orakpo. Hopefully they do and we have our pick between Crabtree and one of the top 2 tackles.

Although I'm not a big Crabtree fan, I am kind of hoping that St. Louis takes Monroe, leaving Curry for KC, and giving us a decision between Smith, Crabtree, and Raji.

I think that while it isn't necessarily popular, we also have to include B.J. Raji in the discussion as well, since Rocky Bernard just signed with the Giants. Although I didn't expect Bernard back, as long as there was a chance, DT wasn't as big of a need. Now our starting D-line is Kerny, Mebane, Terril/Bryant, Tapp. I like Terril and Bryant, but they aren't starting calibur players, and I think this definately means we go DT in the first three rounds, and hope that we can get another guy like Mebane who will make an impact quickly.

Likely DT targets by round:
1st: B.J. Raji
2nd: Peria Jerry (I know long shot but hey), Evander Hood, Ron Brace (depends on who you ask)
3rd: Ron Brace, Sen'Derrick Marks, Fili Moala

Those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

cacksman
03-01-2009, 12:31 PM
I thought it was a given Bernard wouldnt sign here, just like it was with Morris. I think we will/are trying to sign a DT (Canty, Cole) and even if they sign some depth players, we could be content with Mebane and Bryant at DT.

I dont think we will necessarily go DT in the first 3 rounds, we could just as easily go a combination of LT, WR, S, or OG/C in the first 3.

OneToughGame
03-01-2009, 07:07 PM
I thought it was a given Bernard wouldnt sign here, just like it was with Morris. I think we will/are trying to sign a DT (Canty, Cole) and even if they sign some depth players, we could be content with Mebane and Bryant at DT.

I dont think we will necessarily go DT in the first 3 rounds, we could just as easily go a combination of LT, WR, S, or OG/C in the first 3.


Well we did sign Cole so there ya go... ;)

cacksman
03-01-2009, 11:42 PM
Well we did sign Cole so there ya go... ;)

Good signing although I'd rather have Canty. Oh well.

summond822
03-02-2009, 05:10 PM
I think Cole has pretty much been a career backup, but we're not paying him like one. 4-5 years, 20 million.

Also, Houshmanzadeh has agreed to a deal (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/02/houshmandzadeh-lands-with-seahawks/)(5 year, 40 million, 15 million guaranteed) with the Seahawks so, I think we can move WR further down the priority board, though Robiskie in the late second/early third would probably still be a good pick.

EDIT: Here's a link about Crabtree finally deciding to undergo surgery (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/01/texas-techs-crabtree-opts-for-surgery-on-left-foot/), best possible move IMO, even though the chances of him being selected by Seattle have just dropped significantly.

Cicero
03-02-2009, 06:13 PM
I think Cole has pretty much been a career backup, but we're not paying him like one. 4-5 years, 20 million.

Also, Houshmanzadeh has agreed to a deal (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/02/houshmandzadeh-lands-with-seahawks/)(5 year, 40 million, 15 million guaranteed) with the Seahawks so, I think we can move WR further down the priority board, though Robiskie in the late second/early third would probably still be a good pick.

EDIT: Here's a link about Crabtree finally deciding to undergo surgery (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/01/texas-techs-crabtree-opts-for-surgery-on-left-foot/), best possible move IMO, even though the chances of him being selected by Seattle have just dropped significantly.

Ya, that's a ridiculous amount of money to pay a rotation DT.

cacksman
03-02-2009, 07:35 PM
This signing by no means rules out Crabtree. There is still a need for a WR for the future.

I am actually very excited about the signing just because next year is most likely an uncapped year, thus next year, the money Housh is getting will most likely not matter.

summond822
03-02-2009, 09:37 PM
This signing by no means rules out Crabtree. There is still a need for a WR for the future.

I am actually very excited about the signing just because next year is most likely an uncapped year, thus next year, the money Housh is getting will most likely not matter.

I don't really think that the owners will let it actually get to be uncapped. But, there is that possibility. However, I also think that there will be serious negotiations to avoid it.

If there is a cap next year (which I think is pretty likely), it would be way too much money to invest in Crabtree. You don't pay two WR's #1 money. It's just too expensive. So, actually, I think this really hurts the chances of drafting Crabtree, but if the draft plays out the right (or wrong way depending on you opinion), Crabtree could be an option there. However, that scenario would also likely include a) both QB prospects or b) Curry & 1 QB prospect. Teams may be willing to trade up to secure any of those players. Likely? No, but it is a possibility. With how much their paying Housh, the Seahawks are going to have to find a way to trade down to get Crabtree.

cacksman
03-02-2009, 10:11 PM
I don't really think that the owners will let it actually get to be uncapped. But, there is that possibility. However, I also think that there will be serious negotiations to avoid it.

If there is a cap next year (which I think is pretty likely), it would be way too much money to invest in Crabtree. You don't pay two WR's #1 money. It's just too expensive. So, actually, I think this really hurts the chances of drafting Crabtree, but if the draft plays out the right (or wrong way depending on you opinion), Crabtree could be an option there. However, that scenario would also likely include a) both QB prospects or b) Curry & 1 QB prospect. Teams may be willing to trade up to secure any of those players. Likely? No, but it is a possibility. With how much their paying Housh, the Seahawks are going to have to find a way to trade down to get Crabtree.

Housh isnt getting that much money. Its most likely backloaded and he only got 15 guaranteed over 5 years, not bad at all. There is still a need for a young talented WR.

And everyone seems to think that there will be an uncapped year next year. (people who know what they are talking about) I will trust them over one of your hunches.

summond822
03-03-2009, 05:02 PM
Housh isnt getting that much money. Its most likely backloaded and he only got 15 guaranteed over 5 years, not bad at all. There is still a need for a young talented WR.

And everyone seems to think that there will be an uncapped year next year. (people who know what they are talking about) I will trust them over one of your hunches.

There is a need to add another young WR, I'm not gonna argue that, I am going to argue Crabtree though, he doesn't make sense to me. Robiskie would be a great fit, but I think the earliest they take a WR, would likely be round 4. Getting a big Joe Jurevicious-sized WR in the draft would be nice. They could just address this by getting one of the big vertical TE's.

An uncapped year is bad for the NFL, so there is going to be every effort to try to get it done. Until I see the official announcement, I am going to assume that there will be a cap next year. One of the things that makes the NFL the best sports league in America, possibly the world, is the parity. Losing the salary cap would be disasterous and getting the salary cap back, once players realize how much money they could make, overpowering the union to get the cap back is going to be a huge challenge.

HawkEye30
03-03-2009, 05:54 PM
now that we have housh i would like it if we drafted crabtree, but i would absolutely love it if we could trade with the raiders and get more draft picks possibly their 1st in next years draft( which eric berry could possibly be in haha) and draft britt in the 2nd round

cacksman
03-03-2009, 07:37 PM
There is a need to add another young WR, I'm not gonna argue that, I am going to argue Crabtree though, he doesn't make sense to me. Robiskie would be a great fit, but I think the earliest they take a WR, would likely be round 4. Getting a big Joe Jurevicious-sized WR in the draft would be nice. They could just address this by getting one of the big vertical TE's.

An uncapped year is bad for the NFL, so there is going to be every effort to try to get it done. Until I see the official announcement, I am going to assume that there will be a cap next year. One of the things that makes the NFL the best sports league in America, possibly the world, is the parity. Losing the salary cap would be disasterous and getting the salary cap back, once players realize how much money they could make, overpowering the union to get the cap back is going to be a huge challenge.

Well I would like to bet you if you think the earliest they will take a WR is round 4. That would be down right stupid. The last thing they need to do is take another project WR in the late rounds like Taylor, Obomanu, Payne, Kent, etc. They do not work out, and they will get a talented WR and draft one in the 3rd round at the latest.

And everyone knows an uncapped year wouldnt be good for the NFL. It is looking like it will happen as of this point now.

summond822
03-04-2009, 01:25 PM
Well I would like to bet you if you think the earliest they will take a WR is round 4. That would be down right stupid. The last thing they need to do is take another project WR in the late rounds like Taylor, Obomanu, Payne, Kent, etc. They do not work out, and they will get a talented WR and draft one in the 3rd round at the latest.

And everyone knows an uncapped year wouldnt be good for the NFL. It is looking like it will happen as of this point now.

You know, there are just as many successful receivers taken later on in the draft as there are early on. QB's & WR's are among the top positions that bust. Guys like Houshmanzadeh and Marques Colston (7th for both of them actually) are just a couple of examples of guys taken after the fourth that have gone on to have pretty darn good NFL careers.

There is still going to be good value on the board in the fourth. Most of the guys that Ruskell has taken have been 6th round, and I think Obumanu being the earliest in the 5th.

For every Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald there's a Korean Robinson & Reggie Williams. So, taking a WR early who appears to have elite talent does not guarantee that they will succeed.

cacksman
03-04-2009, 02:05 PM
You know, there are just as many successful receivers taken later on in the draft as there are early on. QB's & WR's are among the top positions that bust. Guys like Houshmanzadeh and Marques Colston (7th for both of them actually) are just a couple of examples of guys taken after the fourth that have gone on to have pretty darn good NFL careers.

There is still going to be good value on the board in the fourth. Most of the guys that Ruskell has taken have been 6th round, and I think Obumanu being the earliest in the 5th.

For every Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald there's a Korean Robinson & Reggie Williams. So, taking a WR early who appears to have elite talent does not guarantee that they will succeed.

That is exactly what I was saying. Ruskell has been taking these late round WRs for too long, and none of them have panned out. This draft is loaded with good WRs in the 1-3 rounds. And the likelihood that we will get an impact WR in the earlier rounds obviously is way bigger than later rounds.

Nut up and bet if you really believe we will only take a WR in the 4th or later. Its pretty much a foregone conclusion that we will take one by the 3rd at the latest.

Cicero
03-04-2009, 02:08 PM
You know, there are just as many successful receivers taken later on in the draft as there are early on. QB's & WR's are among the top positions that bust. Guys like Houshmanzadeh and Marques Colston (7th for both of them actually) are just a couple of examples of guys taken after the fourth that have gone on to have pretty darn good NFL careers.

There is still going to be good value on the board in the fourth. Most of the guys that Ruskell has taken have been 6th round, and I think Obumanu being the earliest in the 5th.

For every Calvin Johnson or Larry Fitzgerald there's a Korean Robinson & Reggie Williams. So, taking a WR early who appears to have elite talent does not guarantee that they will succeed.
There is no guarantee at any position. Everyone has a chance to be a bust, and that's the bottom line. The fact is, the chances of getting a pro bowl wide receiver are better in rounds 1 and 2 vs. rounds 5 and later. You can find examples of quite a few individual players who were drafted in the late rounds and are great players, but there are far more whose names you can't even remember.

summond822
03-05-2009, 07:46 PM
That is exactly what I was saying. Ruskell has been taking these late round WRs for too long, and none of them have panned out. This draft is loaded with good WRs in the 1-3 rounds. And the likelihood that we will get an impact WR in the earlier rounds obviously is way bigger than later rounds.

Nut up and bet if you really believe we will only take a WR in the 4th or later. Its pretty much a foregone conclusion that we will take one by the 3rd at the latest.

Do I need to look up the # of the Problem Gambling Helpline for you? You seem to want to bet a lot.

OT, S, RB, CB are all going to be priorities above drafting a WR. So yes, unless someone slips past where they should be gone, Robiskie is there in the third, or they trade up to get someone like Robiskie, then I do believe that the Seahawks will not take a WR in the first three rounds. There are a lot of unknowns that go into the draft, such as availability and value. I am simply stating that I think the value at other positions will be higher than the value at WR in those rounds. Who knows, they may decide to take another DT.

The second tier of talent in this draft at WR is just not that strong. I just don't think there will be the value there that you seem to think there is to force the Seahawks to draft a WR in the first three rounds.

Cicero: Your completely right, but I was trying to make a point that taking a WR early doesn't necessarily mean that he is going to be worth the pick, just as you can occasionaly find a late round gem in a draft.

roscoesdad27
03-06-2009, 01:39 PM
1) E. Monroe l.t. virginia
extremely fluid left tackle prospect excels in pass protection and can develope into a very good run blocker...comes from a program that is pumping out great l.t. prospects of late....franchise left tackle.

2) L. Delmas s w. michigan
extremely aggressive safety with the physicality to play strong and the range to play free....fills a need at tremendous value here.

3) D. Scott d.t. clemson
big penetrator had a very productive career at clemson, has ideal size and had a tremendous combine....fills a need at great value here...sleeper

complete mock here
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1533596&posted=1#post1533596

thoughts?

summond822
03-14-2009, 02:07 PM
Well, since the Seahawks have just traded Peterson, I think we can at least mention Aaron Curry's name in the conversation of who we pick @ 4, even though I doubt we take him or if he is even there. Were this may have the biggest impact is in the second round, where looking LB becomes a much more pressing need.

I also think this is pretty much where we say good bye to mock drafts giving the Seahawks B.J. Raji.

At least we got our 5th rounder back.

EDIT: Just an interesting side note here (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/13/oregons-chung-makes-statement-at-pro-day/), but the Seahawks pretty much ran Oregon's pro day, Bradley ran the defensive drills & Solari ran the offensive drills. Chung, Unger, & Johnson are all prospects that the Seahawks could be interested in. Who knows, Jason Williams may be someone they're sleeping on.

gpngc
03-14-2009, 04:47 PM
EDIT: Just an interesting side note here (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/13/oregons-chung-makes-statement-at-pro-day/), but the Seahawks pretty much ran Oregon's pro day, Bradley ran the defensive drills & Solari ran the offensive drills. Chung, Unger, & Johnson are all prospects that the Seahawks could be interested in. Who knows, Jason Williams may be someone they're sleeping on.

Very unlikely we look at Curry (or that he's there). We re-signed D.D. Lewis and Lance Laury RIGHT after the trade today. I don't even think we'll look at OLB at all honestly. Lewis is fine and we like Herring and Hawthorne.

GREAT STUFF about this Oregon pro day- THANKS!

I really hope we don't draft Williams- he simply can't catch. Oregon Duck, crazy good athlete, but not a WR- remind you of anyone? lol

I would be willing to bet that we'll end up with AT LEAST one Oregon player. Chung would be good at #37 or in round 3 and Unger would be a solid pick at #37.

Good find, Sum.

summond822
03-15-2009, 02:31 PM
Very unlikely we look at Curry (or that he's there). We re-signed D.D. Lewis and Lance Laury RIGHT after the trade today. I don't even think we'll look at OLB at all honestly. Lewis is fine and we like Herring and Hawthorne.

GREAT STUFF about this Oregon pro day- THANKS!

I really hope we don't draft Williams- he simply can't catch. Oregon Duck, crazy good athlete, but not a WR- remind you of anyone? lol

I would be willing to bet that we'll end up with AT LEAST one Oregon player. Chung would be good at #37 or in round 3 and Unger would be a solid pick at #37.

Good find, Sum.

Thanks. I think the biggest difference between Williams & Kent is that Kent actually has the possibility of developing into something besides a special teams player (still).

At fieldgulls, they have been hyping Chung for a while now. But yeah, I think your right, and there seems to be a real good chance that we're going to see Chung, Unger, or Johnson in a Seahawks uniform next year. I would probably have to say that it is really a race between Chung or Unger.

I read this quote in a magazine and it made me laugh. It was from Ramses Bardin.

Cat or Dog? I'd rather be a ...:
Bardin:Griffin, because they got the best of both worlds - built like lions with the ability to fly. If not that, a jaguar - strong, versatile predators.

Most people say they want to be a pitbull or something when they're asked that question, but that is the only time that I have ever heard someone say they'd rather be a mythical animal.

In the short Q&A, he is entertaining and confident. I think that I'm going to have to put his quote on the 40 in my sig.

Bardin & Robiskie are about the only WR's I could see the Seahawks taking in the second or third round.

EDIT: Another blog entry (http://blogs.nfl.com/2009/03/14/seahawks-lions-deal-could-signal-draft-intentions/)on NFL.com that I found.

IMO the trade didn't really affect the first round too much b/c it was doubtful that the Lions would take Curry and the Seahawks would take Raji. However, they do bring up an interesting point when they talk about trading with Philadelphia. I'm kind of borderline right now when I think about trading for Philly's first rounders since your giving up the chance at an elite prospect for the chance at two very good ones. I would personally rather take J. Smith/Monroe > 1 second tier OT & someone else, potentially someone like Vontae Davis or DHB, but if they took Wells or Moreno there...it might be a toss up. The second option would probably provide more of an instant impact, but down the road we could seriously be feeling the lack of a true elite LT.

HawkEye30
03-15-2009, 04:40 PM
i wonder if david hawthorne can play with the same intensity as he did at mlb in the preseason only at lolb with hill at rolb....NUTSSSSSSSSSSSSS,
i dont get why we would draft curry if we cut peterson because he cost to much, if we did pick curry wouldnt he make the same or more than peterson was making??

summond822
03-16-2009, 03:33 PM
i wonder if david hawthorne can play with the same intensity as he did at mlb in the preseason only at lolb with hill at rolb....NUTSSSSSSSSSSSSS,
i dont get why we would draft curry if we cut peterson because he cost to much, if we did pick curry wouldnt he make the same or more than peterson was making??

The chances we draft Curry are going to be very low. Pretty much the only reason that he is even being mentioned is because he is a remote possibility that wasn't there before the trade. Since the move was primarily salary cap related, drafting and signing Curry makes little to no sense, and yes he would be making about the same, if not more, money than Peterson would have this season.

cacksman
03-16-2009, 03:42 PM
Curry would most likely be making a lot more than Peterson would be. That said, it does make it more likely for us to draft him.

I think Curry will be a better player than Peterson and if we still had JP, I wouldnt even put him on my draft board for Seattle but since we now only have 2 pro bowl type LB's instead of 3, I can see the possibility.

HawkEye30
03-23-2009, 07:42 PM
the nfl granted us 3 compensatory picks, hopefullt we can put them to good use

summond822
03-25-2009, 11:27 AM
You know, I think we all agree that the Seahawks need to take their QB of the future in this draft, I'm just curious who you guys think they should take.

I think that Brad Hoyer is the best choice if we don't manage to get Stafford in the first, trade back up for Sanchez, or have Freeman fall to us. The rest of this draft class at the position really doesn't even interest me, except for Hoyer, and he'll probably be there in the 5th.

wonderbredd24
03-25-2009, 02:47 PM
In a group mock, I ended up having to pick for the Seahawks. This is what I came up with:

4. Eugene Monroe, OT Virginia
37. Louis Delmas, S Western Michigan
68. Sherrod Martin, CB Troy
101. Terrance Taylor, DT Michigan
165. James Davis, RB Clemson
196. Anthony Hill, TE NC State

I hope I had a good handle as to what you needed, but I'm not entirely sure.

HawkEye30
03-25-2009, 06:00 PM
for qb im lovin mike reilly, if we draft him 4-5 and let him sit behind the hass well be good imo

summond822
03-25-2009, 06:39 PM
In a group mock, I ended up having to pick for the Seahawks. This is what I came up with:

4. Eugene Monroe, OT Virginia
37. Louis Delmas, S Western Michigan
68. Sherrod Martin, CB Troy
101. Terrance Taylor, DT Michigan
165. James Davis, RB Clemson
196. Anthony Hill, TE NC State

I hope I had a good handle as to what you needed, but I'm not entirely sure.

Looks like a pretty good draft IMO. James Davis that late (5th or 6th?) should be considered a steal.

HawkEye30
04-09-2009, 06:30 PM
anybody have anything interesting to say hahaha

gpngc
04-09-2009, 06:45 PM
anybody have anything interesting to say hahaha

Latest I've heard about #4:

-We love Sanchez.
-We don't really want to take Sanchez at #4 and it's a smokescreen.

LOL we are at square one...

Geo
04-09-2009, 07:16 PM
I'm mocking Sanchez to the Seahawks, although it's because I think Smith and Monroe are taken in the Top 3. I would give them Smith or Monroe if I could, because they are safer and Walter Jones is 35 years old coming off microfracture knee surgery.

Crabtree has concerns, including speed, which probably make him too risky. Especially now that the Hawks have Houshmanzadeh and a dozen guys aren't on IR.

I think if Smith and Monroe are off the board, it's down to Sanchez, Aaron Curry, or BJ Raji.

Curry is safer than Sanchez, but I don't think Curry has the same value, even if the Hawks let Hill walk after this year. But maybe the Hawks really fall in love with him and think he can be a better pass rusher than he's shown.

Raji has some concerns himself, plus Seattle did just sign Colin Cole to a big deal and they have Brandon Mebane. Redding is playing on a one-year deal, he doesn't factor in long-term.

Sanchez's best fit is a West Coast offense but he should sit and learn his first year. Seattle could provide both.

HawkEye30
04-09-2009, 07:16 PM
what do you think about everyone mocking sanchez to us? personally i hate it and i dont think theres a way in hell ruskell would draft him lol

HawkEye30
04-09-2009, 07:20 PM
haha geo that was some weird sh*t 7:16 exactly

Geo
04-09-2009, 07:21 PM
I managed to sneak that in to disappoint you further! Success.

Who would you go for, if Jason Smith and Eugune Monroe are off the board?

HawkEye30
04-09-2009, 07:23 PM
is stafford or curry also off the board?

Geo
04-09-2009, 07:25 PM
I think the Lions take Stafford, yes. Curry is still on the board in this scenario.

HawkEye30
04-09-2009, 07:28 PM
well im pretty sure that our first priority will be to trade out of the spot and if that does not work it will come down to curry and crabtree, i think ultimately it will be curry because of the situation with hill(not signing tender) but if we pick crabtree i think well cut branch

Cicero
04-09-2009, 09:59 PM
I'm doing a forum mock on another site. So far I have

1. Monroe (First 3 picks Were J. Smith, Crabtree, and Curry and I didn't get a chance to trade down, whatever)
2. R. Johnson
3. M. Mickens

In round 4, who do you guys want between James Davis, Jonathan Luigs, Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, and Trevor Canfield? I'm torn on who to take here.

HawkEye30
04-10-2009, 10:48 AM
id have to say luigs