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View Full Version : Why So Much Michael Johnson hate?


thebow305
10-24-2008, 11:50 PM
I do not understand for the life of me, why there is so much hate on this board for Michael Johnson, Senior DE, from Ga Tech. This dude can flat out dominate! I know he has not been as productive this year as many had hoped for, but looking at the Mississippi State game as a judge, he can take over and dominate a game like not many others can:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMYi-I60fec

Also, take a look at highlights from the game Vs. Boston College, some very impressive footage as well.

http://yellowjackets.fandome.com/video/104111/Michael-Johnson-Georgia-Tech-highlights-vs-BC/

I know this is only 2 games, but it is very indicitive of what he can do when he is in the zone. In my opinion, he is the defensive version of Calvin Johnson this year with the type of ability that is second to NONE. I know whenever I have watched him this year he has stood out tremendously. He is unblockable coming off the edge because of his explosiveness and tremendous wing span.

All I'm saying is, the stats are not eye-popping this year, but if you actually watch this kid play, he is undeniably a Top 10 pick for sure and I fully understand why the scouts are drooling over him right now!

Matthew Jones
10-24-2008, 11:58 PM
I know he has not been as productive this year as many had hoped for...

Answered your own question. If he can dominate, why doesn't he?

Vikes99ej
10-25-2008, 12:04 AM
He's tall and "fast". That's it. That's the basis of his hype.

CashmoneyDrew
10-25-2008, 12:08 AM
Seriously? Calvin Johnson was a WR who produced great numbers with a crappy QB throwing the ball. Michael Johnson can't even get to the ball on his own. How are they comparable?

Paranoidmoonduck
10-25-2008, 12:08 AM
The good plays just prove why we're all frustrated with Johnson. He's like that maybe a handful of times a game, while the rest of the time he jogs into offensive tackles, gets in a shove, and then sits there doing nothing. This isn't really offensive tackles neutralizing him, it's him making an incredibly spotting effort. One plays he's awesome, five plays he's invisible.

It's not that we don't think he's talented to be a top 3 pick. It's that he's not making himself into a player worth that kind of investment. And that in itself is really worrying.

Bruce Banner
10-25-2008, 12:15 AM
Can you teach motor?

Honest question!

CashmoneyDrew
10-25-2008, 12:19 AM
One of those, "Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane" type of players.

ElectricEye
10-25-2008, 12:24 AM
Can you teach motor?

Honest question!

Nope, but you can motivate a guy, which is pretty much the same thing.

I don't like him. The only thing he has over Orakpo is two inches of height, maybe three at most. If he wasn't 6'7, he wouldn't be in the same category stockwise. He's a lights out athlete; no one can question that...but we've seen in the past what athletically gifted, questionable drive ends end up fated with. I also have some concerns about his bulk. He's listed at 260, which is good, but not great size for his frame. Because of said frame, he has the ability to put on 15-20 pounds hopefully, but until he does you still have to question that. All that being said, I think he's a bit underrated right now, at least on the draft forums. Bad signs are abundant, but the guys who cut their teeth on this stuff still see something. They've been tricked by triangle numbers before, but still, doesn't happen just like that.

dunagan15
10-25-2008, 12:51 AM
Because Orakpo AKA oSACKpo is dominating and showing how a top DE should play.

Saints-Tigers
10-25-2008, 01:12 AM
Seriously? Calvin Johnson was a WR who produced great numbers with a crappy QB throwing the ball. Michael Johnson can't even get to the ball on his own. How are they comparable?

Crappy doesn't even begin to describe Reggie Ball...

Can you teach motor?

Honest question!

Someone seems to have gotten through to Mario Williams.

brat316
10-25-2008, 01:16 AM
Okpo just want it more than Johnson. Okpo uses speed, strenght and tech, while Johnson sometimes tries to just use is athleticism to get to the ball.

LonghornsLegend
10-25-2008, 01:17 AM
Just like Vernon Gholston? At some point if a guy is as dominate as you claim he's got to consistently show it, weren't you all in love for Gholston last off-season and he's already on his way to an overhyped athlete who doesn't put all his tools together on the football field to produce.


Have you seen Orakpo play, at all this year? I really don't think you have.

Bengals78
10-25-2008, 01:23 AM
I have seen both play and I would take Orakpo over Johnson every time. He plays nonstop motor and Johnson disappears for most of the time. Highlight reels are misleading because they only show his best. Look at a game and he seems to saddle bag some downs. Orakpo goes 150% every down that Ive seen.

Solomon
10-25-2008, 01:27 AM
I think alot of the hate from Johnson stems from being rated so highly in preseason reports. I don't think he's a top 20 pick. But I certainly think he's deserving of a first day selection based on his skill set and how he has improved every season of college.

That being said he's having a productive year. He has 8 TFL and 3 sacks in 7 games which is comparable to what George Selvie and Everette Brown have done this season. Granted that isn't dominant by any stretch of the imagination. Nonetheless he has been impressive in the games I have watched this year. He doesn't fill up the stat sheet but that's partially because the rest of the Yellow Jackets D-Line is so good. I've seen him beat the opposing tackle several times only to have Vance Walker, Derrick Morgan or Darryl Richard get to the ball carrier first. GT leads he nation in tackles for loss and Johnson is a big reason for that.

Zyro_1014
10-25-2008, 01:50 AM
The good plays just prove why we're all frustrated with Johnson. He's like that maybe a handful of times a game, while the rest of the time he jogs into offensive tackles, gets in a shove, and then sits there doing nothing. This isn't really offensive tackles neutralizing him, it's him making an incredibly spotting effort. One plays he's awesome, five plays he's invisible.

It's not that we don't think he's talented to be a top 3 pick. It's that he's not making himself into a player worth that kind of investment. And that in itself is really worrying.

honestly some of the things you said were said about Mario Williams when he came out of college, alot of ppl questioned his motor and motivation but when he went to combine no one cared about all that.

Mr.Regular
10-25-2008, 02:00 AM
Count me out of the hate. This guy is a legitimate prospect.
That being said, yes he was overhyped. I wouldnt take him in the top 10 ...but after that I think he can begin to have good value.
He's no Brian "Jesus" Orakpo but I think he is a clear example of being considered so overrated that now hes underrated slightly. Id take him for the Pack if we end up picking later in the round.

But theres a lot of time to go until draft day, so lots can change. Ill keep my eye on Johnson, hes an interesting prospect for sure.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-25-2008, 02:03 AM
honestly some of the things you said were said about Mario Williams when he came out of college, alot of ppl questioned his motor and motivation but when he went to combine no one cared about all that.

The difference is that Williams was a fulltime starter longer, a singularly incredible athlete, and actually posted games in his final college season that were dominant.

Menardo75
10-25-2008, 02:04 AM
If you have the coaches and some time to spare. Then there is no reason not to draft him in the first. He will be a developemental player that won't help you right away.

TickOffOurBestPlayer
10-25-2008, 08:16 AM
You want to know why he's getting said hate this year? Because fans like SNIPER are only looking at his stat line and not actually watching games. If you'd watch his games you'd see a force a DE. He is always the first one to the QB or runner, but more times than not when you're the first guy they'll avoid you and the 2nd or 3rd guy get the sack/tfl(Walker, Richard, Morgan all benifit from his play). He's not playing like a Top 3 lock many considered him, and he's not playing like the best DE like many though; however, he is playing great, like the 2nd best DE and like a sure fire 10-20 selection.

Sniper
10-25-2008, 08:33 AM
You want to know why he's getting said hate this year? Because fans like SNIPER are only looking at his stat line and not actually watching games. If you'd watch his games you'd see a force a DE. He is always the first one to the QB or runner, but more times than not when you're the first guy they'll avoid you and the 2nd or 3rd guy get the sack/tfl(Walker, Richard, Morgan all benifit from his play). He's not playing like a Top 3 lock many considered him, and he's not playing like the best DE like many though; however, he is playing great, like the 2nd best DE and like a sure fire 10-20 selection.

Because with all the hype he gets, he should be absolutely ape ******* the **** conference known as the ACC. He's not. Ridiculously overrated because of his measurables.

Sniper
10-25-2008, 08:41 AM
He is unblockable coming off the edge

http://www.azillionthings.com/lookytouchy/orly_owl.jpg

12 sacks in the past three years...guess he's not so unblockable.

Sniper
10-25-2008, 08:48 AM
Just like Vernon Gholston? At some point if a guy is as dominate as you claim he's got to consistently show it, weren't you all in love for Gholston last off-season and he's already on his way to an overhyped athlete who doesn't put all his tools together on the football field to produce.

Even Vernon Gholston was way more productive in college than Michael Johnson.

37 tackles, 15.5 TFL, 14.0 sacks, 1 FR for 25 yards
49 tackles, 15.0 TFL, 8.5 sacks, 1 INT for 8 yards, 2 PBU

in two years as a starter.

Michael Johnson is nowhere near that, and half of his sacks this year have come against Gardner-Webb.

Scott Wright
10-25-2008, 08:53 AM
All I can say is watch a tape of Michael Johnson and then watch one of Greg Hardy or Brian Orakpo. The difference is night and day.

MetSox17
10-25-2008, 09:25 AM
All I can say is watch a tape of Michael Johnson and then watch one of Greg Hardy or Brian Orakpo. The difference is night and day.

Scott has turned! Orakpo >>> Johnson for life!

Menardo75
10-25-2008, 11:03 AM
Orakpo is a man amongst boys.

Bengals78
10-25-2008, 11:11 AM
Orakpo is a man amongst boys.

Orakpo made Loadholt look like a boy in the OU game...and when someone is 6'8 and 340lbs and you make them look like a child playing football, you know you have a freak football player on hand

ATLDirtyBirds
10-25-2008, 11:44 AM
Johnson's a beast at times, but he gets hate because he should be doing much more.

iBoldin
10-25-2008, 11:51 AM
http://www.azillionthings.com/lookytouchy/orly_owl.jpg

12 sacks in the past three years...guess he's not so unblockable.

Sacks aren't always the greatest indicator of how much pressure a defensive end can bring. You can't always look at stats and sacks to make your argument, although it's a very big factor. If you watch Michael Johnson, he's often double teamed, which in part lead to big holes to the quarterback for Vance Walker, Darryl Richard and the Morgan kid.

However, I can agree that twelve sacks is pretty mediocre for a guy with his athletic ability. Then again, if he's coached right, put in the right system (Dolphins' hybrid?) then I think Johnson can be a very good NFL player.

P-L
10-25-2008, 01:55 PM
For every great play that Michael Johnson has, there are two or three plays in which he does nothing. I don't hate him, I just think he overhyped. This is a guy who was touted as a top 3-5 pick before the season. I like him, but I think he's a 2nd Round pick at this point.

SuperKevin
10-25-2008, 01:57 PM
It's because people prior to the season decided he was a top 5 pick despite never being a full time starter and putting up barely even moderate stats

Paranoidmoonduck
10-25-2008, 02:07 PM
It's because people prior to the season decided he was a top 5 pick despite never being a full time starter and putting up barely even moderate stats

Right. We spotlighted a guy who has the talent to be a top 5 pick and who was finally getting the chance to play full time, so we projected him to have that epic rise in stock. It's the same thing that was done with Orakpo, it's just that Orakpo is having a great season and Johnson is having a mediocre one.

It's not that Johnson had ever done enough to be a top 5 pickand now this season is dragging his stock down. It's that we expected this season to rocket his stock up, which it hasn't. I agree with P-L that I wouldn't take him in the top 32 selections, but I expect he will go in the first round based on his ceiling.

Burns336
10-25-2008, 04:20 PM
I'm watching Johnson go up against Monroe right now and the difference from play to play in mind boggling.

On certain plays he's completely tuned in, gets a great jump, has beat Monroe around the corner and few times and has gotten very physical with him -- almost over powering him on a few occasions.

On other plays, he gives a love tap, sorta steps back, and waits to react and jog towards where ever the ball goes.

I'd rather have Johnson over someone like Jarvis Moss, but he's going to need to be put with a coach who really pushes him to be great on every play.

It's odd to me that he plays so sporadically. If you read any of his interviews he sounds like a guy with the perfect attitude -- always talking about how he hasn't proven anything yet and how he doesn't buy into his own hype. Speaking about how he needs to turn it up.

You just don't see what he should be and what I hoped he would be at this point

It's especially disappointing based on the talent he has surrounding him on the line. You would think he should at least look better than he has given the line he is on has at least 2 other NFL players.

This coming from a big GT fan.

619
10-25-2008, 04:36 PM
Orakpo best DE prospect since Peppers, imo.

Michael Johnson's motor still worries me even moreso than Super Mario's did although the potential is certainly still there.

SuperKevin
10-25-2008, 04:37 PM
Johnson got pulled along with the rest of the 1st string DL during the 2nd half of today's game against UVA. The coaches were upset with their lack of effort

P-L
10-25-2008, 04:39 PM
Orakpo best DE prospect since Peppers, imo.

Michael Johnson's motor still worries me even moreso than Super Mario's did although the potential is certainly still there.
Better than Mario Williams in your opinion?

619
10-25-2008, 04:44 PM
Better than Mario Williams in your opinion?

Not as physically gifted obviously but a much safer pick than Mario was at the time certainly. He's just as capable of shooting to the very top of the draft. Close to a perfect DE prospect, imo, and personally I wouldn't hesitate selecting him in the top 5.

etk
10-25-2008, 06:16 PM
All I can say is watch a tape of Michael Johnson and then watch one of Greg Hardy or Brian Orakpo. The difference is night and day.

cough George Selvie cough

I don't know why no one talks about Selvie. He's also tall (kinda), also fast, and also produces, has an arsenal of pass rush moves and also has an unstoppable motor against the run and pass. Am I missing something? In one game early in the season he came off the bench despite and injury, played through the pain and got a ton of pressures from the right side.

Tampa 2 4 life
10-25-2008, 06:21 PM
cough George Selvie cough

I don't know why no one talks about Selvie. He's also tall (kinda), also fast, and also produces, has an arsenal of pass rush moves and also has an unstoppable motor against the run and pass. Am I missing something? In one game early in the season he came off the bench despite and injury, played through the pain and got a ton of pressures from the right side.

Underclassman and production is down. If he comes out he still shouldn't fall out of the 1st round, though.

etk
10-25-2008, 06:24 PM
Underclassman and production is down. If he comes out he still shouldn't fall out of the 1st round, though.

Greg Hardy is an underclassman.

From the games I've seen, his talent level has not dipped one bit. Sacks aren't everything as long as you're forcing the issue as a pass rusher.

I think he should return for an extra year, because the only knock on him is fairly big (size and strength).

But he's world's better than Johnson in a similar role/style.

Paranoidmoonduck
10-25-2008, 06:44 PM
Orakpo best DE prospect since Peppers, imo.

Not to sure about that one. Being a guy with the size of a base end and the athletic skills of a blindside rusher is rare. Orakpo is only one of those, while both Peppers and Williams are both.

Then again, I think Williams was a superior prospect to Peppers.

thebow305
10-25-2008, 07:25 PM
All I can say is watch a tape of Michael Johnson and then watch one of Greg Hardy or Brian Orakpo. The difference is night and day.

I don't know though. I don't disagree that Hardy and Orakpo have flat out dominated this year, but those 2 videos show that Johnson is very capable of dominating a game himself. I think the question is just motivation. If someone can get through to him and unleash the beast inside of him, this is Mario Williams 2.0 here.

thebow305
10-25-2008, 07:28 PM
It's because people prior to the season decided he was a top 5 pick despite never being a full time starter and putting up barely even moderate stats

He had 5 and 6 sacks in consecutive seasons in spot duty. So at the very least, he should get 5-6 sacks a season on ACCIDENT. That's just my opinion though.

Malaka
10-25-2008, 07:48 PM
I actually bought into all the hype before the college season, I had him top 5 in most of my mock drafts. Now, I see that he is a great athlete but needs to gain a motor as a DE, and some more experience at the position, as he has not played much in his three seasons on the football team (He played basketball for GT, too). He has not been terrible against the run but needs to get better at it, and if he can be a factor on every play not every other one he can be a dominant DE in the NFL. I no longer see him as the top DE, Orakpo has stolen that spot in my mind, but still see him as a late first rounder possibly to a team like the Broncos, Bills, or even the Giants. He is behind Orakpo and Selvie in DE rankings though.

giantsfan
10-25-2008, 08:15 PM
Big O
Hardy
Selvie
Michael Johnson

for Four-Three DEs.

Malaka
10-25-2008, 08:22 PM
Big O
Hardy
Selvie
Michael Johnson

for Four-Three DEs.

I really like Hardy, and I am just not 100% on if he comes out if he does I think its a tough one for the 2 spot with Selvie with him.

Assuming Hardy comes out

1. Brian Orakpo
2a. George Selvie
2b. Greg Hardy
3. Michael Johnson

CroomDawgs
10-25-2008, 08:51 PM
I do not understand for the life of me, why there is so much hate on this board for Michael Johnson, Senior DE, from Ga Tech. This dude can flat out dominate! I know he has not been as productive this year as many had hoped for, but looking at the Mississippi State game as a judge, he can take over and dominate a game like not many others can:


Uhhhh, don't flatter yourself. We suck

Leon Sandcastle
10-26-2008, 12:35 AM
I said it before the year started he's probably this year's Quentin Moses and Calais Campbell.

giantsfan
10-26-2008, 12:39 AM
I said it before the year started he's probably this year's Quentin Moses and Calais Campbell.

Meh, Moses and Campbell were productive before and then just failed miserable as seniors. Johnson's never been productive.

Solomon
10-26-2008, 01:47 AM
Orakpo best DE prospect since Peppers, imo.

Michael Johnson's motor still worries me even moreso than Super Mario's did although the potential is certainly still there.

It's funny you say that. The more and more I watch Orakpo this season he reminds me of Courtney Brown the only DE who I have ever seen go #1. Brown was about 6-5, 269 lbs in college and played the run as well as rushed the passer. Had a plethora of pass rush moves, was praised by coaches for his work ethic and was a workout warrior to boot (4.52 40, 26 reps and 37 inch vert at his pro day). Orakpo is about 6-4, 260 lbs and I think he will be up to the 265 lbs range by the time the combine rolls around. He has the same strengths as Brown except he hasn't been dominant for as many seasons. Orakpo reportedly runs a 4.6 electronically timed 40, benches 515 lbs and has a vertical of 42 inches. After the combine rolls around he could definitly be a top 5 lock.

Leon Sandcastle
10-26-2008, 02:12 AM
Meh, Moses and Campbell were productive before and then just failed miserable as seniors. Johnson's never been productive.

Meant it, in the sense that they were all projected to go in the Top 5 at the beginning of their senior seasons only to drop.

giantsfan
10-26-2008, 02:16 AM
Meant it, in the sense that they were all projected to go in the Top 5 at the beginning of their senior seasons only to drop.

See Johnson was never actually viewed as a top 5 guy, at the beginning of the season people where putting him there because he had the potential to be a top 5 guy if he dominated but his play hasn't been enarly up to snuff. Both Campbell and Moses had had significant success before their senior seasons that played a big role in their prognostication as potential top 5 guys if they could keep it up.

TitanHope
10-26-2008, 03:08 AM
It always appeared to me that he was coached to do some of the things he's being knocked for (ie. Engaging the OT, shoving off, and reading the play).

*shrugs*

I still love him as a prospect, and would go crazy if he landed on the Titans somehow. He is an ideal fit for Jim Washburn's DL.

giantsfan
10-26-2008, 03:14 AM
It always appeared to me that he was coached to do some of the things he's being knocked for (ie. Engaging the OT, shoving off, and reading the play).

*shrugs*

I still love him as a prospect, and would go crazy if he landed on the Titans somehow. He is an ideal fit for Jim Washburn's DL.

I'd love to see him on the Gmen as well, but if we were picking in the top 10 looking for a stud DE to build a pass rush around he wouldn't be very high on m list, definitely not ahead of Orakpo and Hardy.

SuperKevin
10-26-2008, 03:15 AM
I'd love to see him on the Gmen as well, but if we were picking in the top 10 looking for a stud DE to build a pass rush around he wouldn't be very high on m list, definitely not ahead of Orakpo and Hardy.

He's very similar to a player you already have in Mathias Kiwanuka

giantsfan
10-26-2008, 04:04 AM
He's very similar to a player you already have in Mathias Kiwanuka

And I'd love to clone Kiwi and have two of him. Although Kiwi was very different as a prospect in teat he had great success on teh field but as a senior he took that horrible cheap shot from current bills guard Brad Butler which ruined his senior season. So while physically they are similar kiwi had shown much more on the field and was a much more intelligent and motivated player. I question Johnson's motor as he'll dominate every fifth play and just not try on the other 4.

Our defense needs the Three DEs package as Tuck is so much more effective as an interior passrusher. With him on the inside our Dline is dominant, with him at DE we're just a good Dline. So I'd be shocked if Reece didn't go after a DE on day one to as insurance in case kiwi, osi or tuck go down with an injury next season. And while Tollefson's got a great motor he's not explosive enough to warrant attention as the third DE.

Best Case scenario everyone's healthy and he adjust quickly we could be using the 4 aces by the playoffs and really be scary.

scottyboy
10-26-2008, 09:30 AM
I saw Orakpo for the first time in a game yesterday, and I was VERY impressed. Didn't get much of his hype prior to that, but it seemed every play he was disrupting the play in the backfield, whether pressuring the QB, collapsing the pocket etc. Also looked pretty good in the run game at times. I came away impressed.

Granted, neither him, Hardy or Johnson are Westerman, but then again, who is?

etk
10-26-2008, 03:13 PM
Meh, Moses and Campbell were productive before and then just failed miserable as seniors. Johnson's never been productive.

O RLY?

Campbell did not fail miserably as a JUNIOR. He bulked up to play the run better and faced more double teams. He still put up decent stats but they were nowhere near his eye-opening Sophomore stats. Still, he could be playing right now for the Canes and he would probably dominate again. It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant most people are when it comes to the Canes. I thought I had seen it all with the Campbell and Phillips hating.

But I agree, Johnson's not even close to Moses or Campbell on a bad year.

giantsfan
10-26-2008, 04:04 PM
O RLY?

Campbell did not fail miserably as a JUNIOR. He bulked up to play the run better and faced more double teams. He still put up decent stats but they were nowhere near his eye-opening Sophomore stats. Still, he could be playing right now for the Canes and he would probably dominate again. It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant most people are when it comes to the Canes. I thought I had seen it all with the Campbell and Phillips hating.

But I agree, Johnson's not even close to Moses or Campbell on a bad year.

Campbell didn't get the consistent pressure a player with his physical skills should've been able to. OK maybe failed miserably was a little extreme, but Calais certainly had a major down year his last year in college compared to his previous season and what his physical skills hinted at him being capable of.

ThePudge
10-26-2008, 05:35 PM
I don't understand why you all hate him so much. Is it because he has tremendous physical ability and doesn't put up the best numbers out there? The fact of the matter is despite all the Johnson-hating here, he will likely be a first round pick, and possibly a late Top-15 pick.

Johnson has 27 Tackles 10 TFL and 4 Sacks this year. The Yellow Jackets have five games left as well. If he can finish with say 42 Tackles 16 TFL 7.5 Sacks, I'd consider that a fairly productive year. His coaches rave about his heart and his effort so this motor thing might be in your imagination. Johnson is an athletic, disruptive player that must be accounted for on every play. He leads his team in pass breakups as a defensive end. Overall, he is very comparable to Broncos DE Jarvis Moss, without the baggage.

Do I think he could do more with his talent? Yes. Do I think he should be doing more? Yes. Still, the guy is packed with upsdide and is already a disruptive force.

If he runs in the 4.55-4.7 range he could soar up boards.

SuperKevin
10-26-2008, 05:37 PM
I don't understand why you all hate him so much. Is it because he has tremendous physical ability and doesn't put up the best numbers out there? The fact of the matter is despite all the Johnson-hating here, he will likely be a first round pick, and possibly a late Top-15 pick.

Johnson has 27 Tackles 10 TFL and 4 Sacks this year. The Yellow Jackets have five games left as well. If he can finish with say 42 Tackles 16 TFL 7.5 Sacks, I'd consider that a fairly productive year. His coaches rave about his heart and his effort so this motor thing might be in your imagination. Johnson is an athletic, disruptive player that must be accounted for on every play. He leads his team in pass breakups as a defensive end. Overall, he is very comparable to Broncos DE Jarvis Moss, without the baggage.

Do I think he could do more with his talent? Yes. Do I think he should be doing more? Yes. Still, the guy is packed with upsdide and is already a disruptive force.

If he runs in the 4.55-4.7 range he could soar up boards.

I think his draft stock is going to be affected more by his bench numbers and his position drills. Watching him right now he seems to lack strength and technique

ThePudge
10-26-2008, 05:53 PM
I think his draft stock is going to be affected more by his bench numbers and his position drills. Watching him right now he seems to lack strength and technique

Maybe not. No one really expects Johnson to put up 30 reps in the bench press. So if he doesn't it won't hurt his stock. I think the things most important for him are the Senior Bowl, which he will have to show can be dominant at (facing likely teammate Eugene Monroe or Michael Oher in practice) and the standard 40 yard dash, weigh-in, etc. I say this because everyone thinks Johnson is a freak athlete. If he proves it, his stock rises, if he doesn't we could be looking at our next Quentin Moses.

Strength and technique you can teach, Johnson has those rare attributes you can't teach. First year you give him plenty of practice reps, dedicate him to the weight room and mold him to your liking. The upside is tremendous. He's a good player right now, he's a great prospect. This guy could, and should, be a much better pro than college player.

The type of guy teams will fall in love with. The Bengals' Marvin Lewis has been craving the long, athletic pass-rusher for quite some time now. Jarvis Moss was his target in 07', Derrick Harvey was in 08', it could be Michael Johnson in 09' with either a trade down from Top 5 or trade up from early 2nd.... Crazier things have happened.

ElectricEye
10-26-2008, 06:00 PM
Position drills will be big for him, regardless of what people expect him to be able to throw up in the bench. Gives him a chance to show off his general athleticism, and for scouts to take a discerning look at his football moves.

My real question about Johnson is what's his threshold, weight wise? If he could put on ten pounds of muscle from his 265 without losing any speed that would be good. I'm also interested as to how legit that 6'7 listed height is. Looks every bit of it to me, but still. That extra bit of length is what helped start all the hype.

SuperKevin
10-26-2008, 06:01 PM
Position drills will be big for him, regardless of what people expect him to be able to throw up in the bench. Gives him a chance to show off his general athleticism, and for scouts to take a discerning look at his football moves.

My real question about Johnson is what's his threshold, weight wise? If he could put on ten pounds of muscle from his 265 without losing any speed that would be good. I'm also interested as to how legit that 6'7 listed height is. Looks every bit of it to me, but still. That extra bit of length is what helped start all the hype.

He's skinny as hell right now for 265. I'm sure he could put on another 20 lbs

ThePudge
10-26-2008, 06:06 PM
If he's 265 right now, which I highly doubt, you're right in saying he could afford to play at 6'7 285. He'll be a project, but as a player that's already very disruptive, the upside is very easy to see.

SuperKevin
10-26-2008, 06:07 PM
If he's 265 right now, which I highly doubt, you're right in saying he could afford to play at 6'7 285. He'll be a project, but as a player that's already very disruptive, the upside is very easy to see.

He hasn't been disruptive at all this year though. He's no longer able to catch people by surprise or come in at full strength against worn down opponents

ElectricEye
10-26-2008, 06:08 PM
If he could get up to around 275, with the benefit of the added strength, that could go a long way into his becoming a more complete player.

I don't know though. I still have my doubts. He has the technique thing working against him to go along with the strength questions. He just seems to far away right now. Too many questions.

ThePudge
10-26-2008, 06:12 PM
He hasn't been disruptive at all this year though. He's no longer able to catch people by surprise or come in at full strength against worn down opponents

He still has 10 TFL to lead his team and also leads his team in pass breakups as I said. One could argue that Morgan has been as productive as he has because Johnson is on the other side. He must be accounted for on every play. He's a true playmaker on defense. His sack numbers aren't through the roof, but he's received plenty of attention this year.

Sniper
10-26-2008, 06:17 PM
He still has 10 TFL to lead his team and also leads his team in pass breakups as I said. One could argue that Morgan has been as productive as he has because Johnson is on the other side. He must be accounted for on every play. He's a true playmaker on defense. His sack numbers aren't through the roof, but he's received plenty of attention this year.

So have Brian Orakpo, Greg Hardy, Brandon Graham et al. They still have better numbers in better conferences.

ThePudge
10-26-2008, 06:27 PM
So have Brian Orakpo, Greg Hardy, Brandon Graham et al. They still have better numbers in better conferences.

I prefer Orakpo and Hardy to Johnson at this point. Still, I can't close my mind to the possibility, or excuse me, near certainty, that a team will fall in love with Johnson's measurables and upside.

he's not having a bad year, he's simply not having a tremendous year. J Leman put up outstanding numbers in his career at Illinois, in the Big Ten, yet Keith Rivers and Jerod Mayo, who were less productive, still were drafted over Leman (who went undrafted.) I love when a player plays to his potential and I think production a great gauge of a player's ability, yet as NFL decision-makers know, it is not the only factor. His production is average to above average, his physical tools are top notch, and his upside is the finest of any DE in this draft.

He may reach his potential in the NFL, he may not. Nevertheless, a team will likely take a chance on Johnson sooner rather than later. Long, athletic pass-rushers are coveted in the draft and thus are usually over-drafted.

ElectricEye
10-26-2008, 06:28 PM
To anyone who witnessed the game; was Johnson lined up against Monroe?

SuperKevin
10-26-2008, 06:29 PM
To anyone who witnessed the game; was Johnson lined up against Monroe?

I believe so. That also may have been why he was pulled from the game for being ineffective at one point

ElectricEye
10-26-2008, 06:33 PM
I believe so. That also may have been why he was pulled from the game for being ineffective at one point

Was the sack before or after that?

I kinda wished I had watched the game. It would be interesting looking at two guys with such highly scrutinized effort issues match up against each other.

SuperKevin
10-26-2008, 06:35 PM
Was the sack before or after that?

I kinda wished I had watched the game. It would be interesting looking at two guys with such highly scrutinized effort issues match up against each other.

The sack came later in the game I believe because he played poorly the 1st half that I watched

ThePudge
10-26-2008, 06:35 PM
Was the sack before or after that?

I kinda wished I had watched the game. It would be interesting looking at two guys with such highly scrutinized effort issues match up against each other.

I'm not sure Johnson has those effort issues. The coaches apparently rave about his effort in practice and in games, saying he typically is hyper in both.

ElectricEye
10-26-2008, 06:38 PM
I'm not sure Johnson has those effort issues. The coaches apparently rave about his effort in practice and in games, saying he typically is hyper in both.

Thanks for the info SuperKevin.

From the times I've seen him, he's looked like he gave the best effort he could most of the time. His numbers kinda seem to support that.

giantsfan
10-26-2008, 07:01 PM
If he just brought it every play he'd be a top 10 pick weight issues or no. The fact is that right now at the college level he is not dominating like he should and it's entirely the result of a lack of focus and consistent effort.

Larry121283
10-28-2008, 01:36 PM
Calais Campbell syndrome. Good player, showed flashes of Top 10 stuff as a backup / wave player / DPR...but now with a heavy load (playing more then double the snaps)...he isn't producing and is looking very worn out.

Like Calais, still made plays, just not as many as you'd expect from a "Future, Top 10" player.

He won't get moved to undertackle like CC did.

Turtlepower
10-28-2008, 01:37 PM
Calais Campbell syndrome. Good player, showed flashes of Top 10 stuff as a backup / wave player / DPR...but now with a heavy load (playing more then double the snaps)...he isn't producing and is looking very worn out.

Like Calais, still made plays, just not as many as you'd expect from a "Future, Top 10" player.

He won't get moved to undertackle like CC did.

See, I don't like the Campbell comparison because Campbell produced ridiculous numbers his Sophomore year. Michael Johnson has never put those numbers together with his physical attributes.

Halsey
10-28-2008, 01:50 PM
I've never really watched Johnson play, but I can't help think of Quentin Moses from UGA a couple of years ago. Before the season he was being hyped as a sure top 10 pick and by the draft he lasted until like the 4th round. He ended up getting cut before the season by the team that drafted him. I don't know if Johnson is Quentin Moses II, but I wonder.

sweetd20
10-28-2008, 04:55 PM
The big thing he lacks is a variety of pass rush moves and in the NFL being a one trick pony doesn't cut it. Year after year great college DEs that were successful because they were that much better physically than the guys they lined up against disappear when they get to the NFL. In the NFL those guys on the O-line will quickly figure out if a guy is only successful by bursting to the edge. With no counter move they can cheat with their first step and push those speed guys wide of the play.

Williams didn't look like much his first year because he tried to explode off the edge or through the OL on every play. About half way through his rookie year you could see that with coaching and playing time he was starting to play the DE position. Now he has a nice repertoire of moves that keeps the OL on their heels which then makes his physical gifts that much more impressive. Watch an Aaron Schobel play DE and you can see where technique can make up for not being the most physically gifted. Johnson has the tools but he has even more work ahead of him going into the NFL than Mario needed.

DeathbyStat
10-28-2008, 06:08 PM
How were Mario Williams stats in college?

Aren't they similar to Johnson's?

Maybe I'm wrong

Turtlepower
10-28-2008, 06:12 PM
How were Mario Williams stats in college?

Aren't they similar to Johnson's?

Maybe I'm wrong
NCSU's Mario Williams named Sports Illustrated All-American (http://www.chathamjournal.com/weekly/sports/football/mario-si-award-51207.shtml)

Williams hold nearly every sack and tackle for loss record for NC State, including season (13 sacks, 20 TFL in 2005) and career (48 TFL). He is tied for first in the school record books in career sacks with 24.

ElectricEye
10-28-2008, 06:52 PM
Mario had effort questions, but was still dominant in college. My problem with Johnson is he doesn't even flash that type of ability.

Gchu83
10-28-2008, 06:53 PM
It's funny you say that. The more and more I watch Orakpo this season he reminds me of Courtney Brown the only DE who I have ever seen go #1.

Mario went #1.

TACKLE
11-09-2008, 06:03 PM
Here's a video of Michael Johnson taking Eugene Monroe to school. He needs more pass rush moves but damn is he fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tbnh9F9A

Larry121283
11-09-2008, 07:20 PM
Yes, he is a sick athlete at DE, still don't see much on the field.

The only reason I take Johnson is what could possibly be in 3 years after he was drafted. Depending on the system, I think there are several DEs that I like better.

ThePudge
11-09-2008, 11:52 PM
Like it or not, Michael Johnson right now is a Top 20-25 pick if the draft is today. With a strong showing at the Senior Bowl and Combine, Johnson could rise to the top among Defensive Ends. I mean up into the Top 10 potentially with the Texans, Raiders, and Bengals all sitting near the top there. GMs, coaches, and scouts fall in love with physical tools. That much is not a theory, that is a certainty and it has been proven time after time.

Effort may not be as big a problem as you all make it out to be. For one, his coaches rave about his effort in practice and in games. The problem may be more weight, strength, and stamina. That comes with being 250-255 and playing in a reserve role for three years. His play has improved with time & exposure and he had a fairly nice week against North Carolina. We set unfairly high expectations for Johnson based on his physical skill-set and flashes in limited time.

His potential is exceptional due to his length, burst, and mental makeup. He needs to hit the weight room, get reps, and formally learn the game. Still, he has those traits you just can't teach. A potential Top 10 pick still depending on the team and his senior bowl/combine showing.

ElectricEye
11-10-2008, 12:37 AM
Here's a video of Michael Johnson taking Eugene Monroe to school. He needs more pass rush moves but damn is he fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tbnh9F9A

I gotta admit; the explosion is pretty god damned impressive. He looks like a high school player technique wise though.

gator3guy
11-10-2008, 01:59 AM
Here's a video of Michael Johnson taking Eugene Monroe to school. He needs more pass rush moves but damn is he fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tbnh9F9A

Jesus...He looked like a sprinter coming out of the blocks on that one play where he missed the sack. Do you guys see him as a 3-4 OLB who puts a hand in the ground on passing situations?

vatech=accdomination
11-10-2008, 09:23 AM
Move him to TE.

bored of education
11-10-2008, 09:59 AM
Move him to TE.

*NT. He would be a beast if he put on like 80 lbs

P-L
11-10-2008, 11:10 AM
Here's a video of Michael Johnson taking Eugene Monroe to school. He needs more pass rush moves but damn is he fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tbnh9F9A
He is freakishly fast, but realize that the video doesn't show the 20-25 plays where Eugene Monroe made him a non-factor.

Pokeys
11-11-2008, 11:50 PM
Michael Johnson is a legit prospect.

bigboiajhawk
11-12-2008, 10:03 AM
Watching Johnson against Monroe, Johnson did not look impressive at all. The one sack and fumble he got at the end of the video, he should never have gotten, he got walled so far up field that if there was no pressure fromt the DT, and if there was a better QB, he would never had made the play. All that video showed me is how great of a prospect Monroe is. The one plus for Johnson is his burst, that is all he seems to have.

foozball
11-12-2008, 10:52 AM
22 Solos
13 Assisted

12 TFL
6 Sacks

Meh...that DLine is pretty sick as a whole though. How that affects Johnson...who knows

fenikz
11-12-2008, 11:02 AM
Calais Campbell syndrome. Good player, showed flashes of Top 10 stuff as a backup / wave player / DPR...but now with a heavy load (playing more then double the snaps)...he isn't producing and is looking very worn out.

Like Calais, still made plays, just not as many as you'd expect from a "Future, Top 10" player.

He won't get moved to undertackle like CC did.

CC had a great Junior year not really sure what you are talking about, yes his numbers dropped but that had a lot more to do with being constantly double teamed and he still plays DE for us in AZ

ElectricEye
11-12-2008, 11:04 AM
22 Solos
13 Assisted

12 TFL
6 Sacks

Meh...that DLine is pretty sick as a whole though. How that affects Johnson...who knows

I've heard the argument both ways on this one. That he wouldn't even be as productive as he was without the talent around him/he makes people better. It's kinda a crapshoot.

CC.SD
11-12-2008, 11:41 AM
*NT. He would be a beast if he put on like 80 lbs

At NT he would command a quadruple team! IDD FTW!

Johnson still has the sliiiiiightest whiff of Quentin Moses about him, but his flashes and his combine numbers will lock him into the upper half of the first round.

themythisbusted
11-12-2008, 01:45 PM
johnson has the sickness that a julius peppers has. but he just doenst have the right mindset to be a dominant ahtlete. to me he is the next golston

sweetd20
11-12-2008, 05:10 PM
His weakness is lack of a repertoire as far as pass rush moves. If he thinks just blowing past OTs to the outside on every play is going to work, there is a long line of former one trick pony college DE phenoms that were bust in the NFL. With out the ability to attack an O-line with multiple moves all they have to do is sit on that one strength and negate it. With multiple moves you can catch the O-line guessing and then bullover them, blow by them, or set them up with one move and swim inside or rip by them on the outside. Elite athleticisim is great but great technique will out perform the guy that relies totally on his athletic ability in the long run. If you can get the combo like with Mario, Dwight, and Julius then you have the perfect storm but lots of time that doesn't happen. At this point I'd have to say Johnson is high risk/high reward with the risk being higher than the reward.

Larry121283
11-14-2008, 12:30 PM
CC had a great Junior year not really sure what you are talking about, yes his numbers dropped but that had a lot more to do with being constantly double teamed and he still plays DE for us in AZ
Calais did NOT have a great junior year, that is self admitted.

He played WAY too many plays and by the second half of the season he became a non-factor. Teams also misdirectioned all year. He still hustled a lot, regardless.

Not sure where you think he had a good season in 07. He didn't.

When I watched AZ this year, he was playing as an undertackle and occasionally a 5-tech end.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 12:32 PM
The Cards have indeed used him a bit at UT this year, but I think that's just a scheme thing. I'm pretty sure that he's still viewed as an end.

Me Likey Rookies
11-15-2008, 02:23 AM
He is freakishly fast, but realize that the video doesn't show the 20-25 plays where Eugene Monroe made him a non-factor.

Yes very true. I was planning on not even making a MJ video because Monroe owned him in the 1st half and into the 2nd half. MJ finally got some good rushes in in the 4th qtr. But hey, a sack is a sack.

Zyro_1014
11-15-2008, 03:15 AM
personally i really like Johnson as a prospect, i know the stats arent there but the fact that he can put up the times and the workouts he does at that size is ridiculous. idk i guess i just kinda fall for the work out warriors...oh well.

Cigaro
11-15-2008, 08:39 AM
I know he hasn't put up a lot of stats, and for that he got a preliminary dislike from me. But after watching him, especially on some tape from NFL Draft Party, this guy is a pure monster off the edge.

I think his professional production, as long as he gets a good coach who can help develop him, will easily surpass his collegiate production.