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bored of education
10-30-2008, 08:23 AM
The National Football League players like Herm Edwards, head coach of the Kansas City Chiefs, if some of the local metro area fans don’t.

In a recent and supposedly, “unprecedented survey of players” commissioned by the Wharton Sports Business Initiative at the University of Pennsylvania, players throughout the league listed Edwards along with Tony Dungy of the Indianapolis Colts, Lovie Smith of the Chicago Bears, Bill Belichick of the New England Patriots and Mike Tomlin of the Pittsburgh Steelers in their top five coaches for whom they would like to play.

Writing about the survey last weekend, the New York Times’ Bill Rhoden noted that “the study is especially relevant at a time of midseason coaching changes, wide swings of performance levels from week to week and periodic episodes of player-coach confrontations.” Interestingly and worthy of further note, “African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches,” Rhoden observed, but Edwards, for instance, “ranked sixth among white players.” Also worthy of mention: “respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components.”

Edwards, more than any recent Chiefs coach, has been under attack this year for a variety of reasons but none of it has come from the hands of his players. Even those who have been at odds with the Chiefs head coach have not spoken out negatively about him, to my knowledge. Listen to any of his press conferences and you hear a man confident in his abilities and approach, no matter the criticism of those who are listening either in a crowded press conference or on car radios as they move about town.

Listening to another New York Times’ columnist, David Brooks, last night at Kansas City’s Folly Theater I was struck by something he said about leadership. Brooks was talking about presidents and how theirs is a job to make the decisions that others around them will not or cannot make. Underlings handle the day-to-day, the man on top the tough calls or settles arguments. That would apply to NFL head coaches as well. Assistants, or coordinators, do most of the game planning but when it comes to the crucial call or the overriding theme the head coach has to make the decision. In doing so he must have the respect and trust not only of the players he leads but the organization he helps head along with the franchise’s management to include ownership.

Edwards made the decision that the Chiefs franchise must retool its image if it is to make it to where it wants to go: the playoffs and ultimately the Super Bowl. In coming to that conclusion he had to have had the support of the man who hired him, Carl Peterson, as well as Clark Hunt, the team’s chairman of the board. It couldn’t have been an easy decision since the prospects of instant success were hardly promising.

“Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm,” Winston Churchill observed. Edwards has had his share of failures over his short time here with the Chiefs – no more so than this year with the loss of the man he had hoped would be his quarterback. But he has never lost his enthusiasm, as his press conferences would seem to show. He is resilient at a time when other teams are shaking up rosters and coaching staffs and where the life span of an NFL head coach is ever in doubt. His critics punch him silly and he always gets off the canvas, if he even thinks he’s down there to begin with.

Some head coaches never survive the first blow they receive after they reach the national stage. If anything, Edwards combines a natural optimism with a capacity to see the big picture that as painful as this losing must be it has to be done this way if things are to change here, he no doubt is saying.

Just as a coach must have a strong character, he must be of clear purpose. He must tell the fans where he is heading so he can rally people around him. Edwards’ purpose was to change the team’s direction to get the team where it ultimately wants to go. He shows no signs of going back, no matter the level of criticism. By the results of this recent survey, the bulk of that is coming from the outside not inside the locker room.

Dwight Eisenhower liked to say, “What counts is not necessarily the size of the dog in the fight – it’s the size of the fight in the dog.” A diminutive former cornerback, Edwards has plenty of fight in him, the players behind him, and a vision of where he wants to go. Who am I, the hopeless Chiefs defender, to deny him if it takes longer than I or anyone else can appreciate.

Sniper
10-30-2008, 08:29 AM
Could we not plagiarize and actually attribute a link to those who put in the work for this article?

Bruce Banner
10-30-2008, 08:30 AM
Gruden in the bottom five? Huge surprise.

Chuckles' Florida sized ego is probably the #1 contributing factor.


(Who the **** cares about a link?)

Sniper
10-30-2008, 08:31 AM
Gruden in the bottom five? Hugh surprise.

Chuckles' Florida sized ego is probably the #1 contributing factor.


(Who the **** cares about a link?)

As a journalism student, I do. I'd be pissed if someone took my work and passed it off without giving credit.

bored of education
10-30-2008, 08:32 AM
Could we not plagiarize and actually attribute a link to those who put in the work for this article?

happy

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/10/29/they_like_him_they_really_like_him/


http://shopping.hobidas.com/image-resources/far-east/GOODS/CHARACTERS/TROLL/TROLL-BANK-GR1.jpg

Sniper
10-30-2008, 08:34 AM
happy

http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/2008/10/29/they_like_him_they_really_like_him/


http://shopping.hobidas.com/image-resources/far-east/GOODS/CHARACTERS/TROLL/TROLL-BANK-GR1.jpg

Yup. I fail to see how it's trolling though.

bored of education
10-30-2008, 08:35 AM
Yup. I fail to see how it's trolling though.

word association. i see ur username i think of those cute lil dolls. i dunno why.

awfullyquiet
10-30-2008, 10:39 AM
good for herm.
he's a good coach.

Bruce Banner
10-30-2008, 10:40 AM
Most of them are Kiffin/Dungy disciples. (Bolded)

That's expected.

CashmoneyDrew
10-30-2008, 11:39 AM
Jeff Fishers beard FTW!

Menardo75
10-30-2008, 03:37 PM
If Singletary could get on that list that would be cool.

Babylon
10-30-2008, 03:53 PM
Good post there by Bored with Education. Not sure that being a coach guys want to play for is really going to be indicative of winning football games though. Guys like Chuck Knoll, Jimmy Johnson, Mike Ditka, Bill Belichec arent exactly Mr. Congeniality out there. As for Herm i think the jury is still out on the direction this shipwreck is going in.

Diehard
10-30-2008, 05:16 PM
Interestingly and worthy of further note, “African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches,”

Black players prefer black coaches. Lots of black players in the league. So in a popularity contest, 4 of the top 5 coaches just happen to be black guys. Not too surprising... but it's sad that skin color still remains an important factor in people's opinions.

awfullyquiet
10-30-2008, 05:48 PM
Black players prefer black coaches.

First of all... prove that.

Lots of black players in the league. So in a popularity contest, 4 of the top 5 coaches just happen to be black guys. Not too surprising... but it's sad that skin color still remains an important factor in people's opinions.

Secondly. Every single one of those coaches are respectable human beings. They mostly come from the dungy/kiffen tree, which all have the identical coaching philosophy. I don't see how that's so difficult.

Gay Ork Wang
10-30-2008, 06:37 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/1250634,CST-SPT-greg30.article

a nice article about Lovie Smith and why he never yells

BlindSite
10-30-2008, 06:45 PM
If Singletary could get on that list that would be cool.

Players don't really like getting chucked under a bus.

Menardo75
10-30-2008, 07:36 PM
Players don't really like getting chucked under a bus.

Well one of them better start playing otherwise he might stay there.

awfullyquiet
10-31-2008, 10:01 AM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/couch/1250634,CST-SPT-greg30.article

a nice article about Lovie Smith and why he never yells

if grown men can't motivate themselves without being yelled at.

agh. that's a great article. for some reason, i think guys like herm, guys like lovie, or tony, they earn the respect from their players for not treating them like that. on the other hand. you have jon gruden.

sometimes i feel shanny can get into that stoic groove too. i remember in the jags-denver AFC championship few years back. he stood there on the sidelines, unblinking, unwavering. and i thought. damn. that was cool. defined.

Diehard
10-31-2008, 12:16 PM
First of all... prove that.

That's exactly what the quote I referenced says:

“African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches”

This wording is a little nicer, but it means exactly the same thing. If you think it's just coincidence, or a byproduct of the superior Tampa coaching lineage, that's fine... there's not enough data here to prove otherwise.

diabsoule
10-31-2008, 12:16 PM
Black players prefer black coaches. Lots of black players in the league. So in a popularity contest, 4 of the top 5 coaches just happen to be black guys. Not too surprising... but it's sad that skin color still remains an important factor in people's opinions.

The quote went on further...

” Interestingly and worthy of further note, “African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches,” Rhoden observed, but Edwards, for instance, “ranked sixth among white players.” Also worthy of mention: “respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components.”

YAYareaRB
10-31-2008, 12:18 PM
THATS MY NEIGHBOR!!!

Nahhh he lives on the other side of town.

awfullyquiet
10-31-2008, 12:22 PM
That's exactly what the quote I referenced says:

“African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches”

This wording is a little nicer, but it means exactly the same thing. If you think it's just coincidence, or a byproduct of the superior Tampa coaching lineage, that's fine... there's not enough data here to prove otherwise.

but, the fact that white players supported black coaches (like, herm edwards) says otherwise... like diab quoted. i think you're trying to find the most inflammatory part of the article and use it to your own agenda.

not buying it.

awfullyquiet
10-31-2008, 12:25 PM
here's another quote of it all, from the NYT

"According to the survey, the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example.

There were also significant differences between white and black players. For instance, respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components for successful relationships, but white players expressed more trust and respect for their head coaches than black players.

“Who would have thought that the most important things to players is that the coach respects them?” Zuberi said. “This has a fundamental impact on the players’ attitudes toward the coaches. I didn’t expect that white players would trust and respect their coaches more than black players.”

Another distinction was that African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches. Race matters.

Although all players agreed on the top 10 most desirable head coaches, there were subtle differences between white and black players.

Among all players, Dungy was selected as the top coach. White players ranked Belichick second, Smith third, the Denver Broncos’ Mike Shanahan fourth and the Tennessee Titans’ Jeff Fisher fifth.

Black players ranked Smith second, Belichick third, Edwards fourth and Tomlin fifth.

Edwards was sixth among white players, and Shanahan dropped to ninth among black players. Mike Holmgren of Seattle was ranked seventh among white players and 13th among black players."

bold: mine.

if we're going by the 'race' card... black players wouldn't have put belichick third, if they're clearly choosing by race. and as far as the 'alignment of values'. the black coaches listed tend to exemplify said values towards their players. HENCE. You'll get people with the same values, voting for the same guys.

diabsoule
10-31-2008, 12:42 PM
here's another quote of it all, from the NYT

"According to the survey, the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example.

There were also significant differences between white and black players. For instance, respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components for successful relationships, but white players expressed more trust and respect for their head coaches than black players.

“Who would have thought that the most important things to players is that the coach respects them?” Zuberi said. “This has a fundamental impact on the players’ attitudes toward the coaches. I didn’t expect that white players would trust and respect their coaches more than black players.”

Another distinction was that African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches. Race matters.

Although all players agreed on the top 10 most desirable head coaches, there were subtle differences between white and black players.

Among all players, Dungy was selected as the top coach. White players ranked Belichick second, Smith third, the Denver Broncos’ Mike Shanahan fourth and the Tennessee Titans’ Jeff Fisher fifth.

Black players ranked Smith second, Belichick third, Edwards fourth and Tomlin fifth.

Edwards was sixth among white players, and Shanahan dropped to ninth among black players. Mike Holmgren of Seattle was ranked seventh among white players and 13th among black players."

bold: mine.

if we're going by the 'race' card... black players wouldn't have put belichick third, if they're clearly choosing by race. and as far as the 'alignment of values'. the black coaches listed tend to exemplify said values towards their players. HENCE. You'll get people with the same values, voting for the same guys.

Let's nip this race discussion in the bud before it gets out of hand.

SenorGato
10-31-2008, 12:43 PM
An article blowing Herm?

Well, the media does love the guy. I don't see the big deal about him.

awfullyquiet
10-31-2008, 12:47 PM
Let's nip this race discussion in the bud before it gets out of hand.

i'll race you around the block.

bored of education
10-31-2008, 12:50 PM
i'll race you around the block.

nascar ftw!!!!

SuperKevin
10-31-2008, 12:53 PM
Herm Edwards would make an excellent head coach for San Diego State. He loves his alma mater and would bring much needed recruiting and excitment to Montezuma mesa

awfullyquiet
10-31-2008, 01:02 PM
nascar ftw!!!!

i prefer right turns. tyvm. besides, i'd beat diab in any race. any time.

Diehard
10-31-2008, 01:22 PM
like diab quoted. i think you're trying to find the most inflammatory part of the article and use it to your own agenda.

It was a simple observation, that's all. I do a lot of work in the field of survey research, and I often see obvious points being ignored in favor of more complex/subtle answers that better fit the client's viewpoint. Not that the obvious is always the correct answer, but it's worth considering rather than being rejected out of hand.

Okay, so here's the actual NY Times article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/26/sports/football/26rhoden.html?em

White top 7:

1. Dungy
2. Belicheck
3. Smith
4. Shanahan
5. Fisher
6. Edwards
7. Holmgren

Black top 5:

1. Dungy
2. Smith
3. Belichek
4. Edwards
5. Tomlin
(their 6 and 7 aren't contained in the article)

It's an interesting article, and does attempt to provide some explanation for the differences in opinions between white and black players. Interpreting these kinds of results is always a little dicey, though... if you really want to know the answer to a question, you've got to ask it in the survey.

FlyingElvis
10-31-2008, 01:24 PM
Poor Bill. Everybody hates him except the people that matter. It's a wonder he can sleep at night.

awfullyquiet
10-31-2008, 01:32 PM
White top 3:

1. Dungy
2. Belicheck
3. Smith

Black top 3:

1. Dungy
2. Smith
3. Belichek


It's an interesting article, and does attempt to provide some explanation for the differences in opinions between white and black players. Interpreting these kinds of results is always a little dicey, though... if you really want to know the answer to a question, you've got to ask it in the survey.

the top three. the same people. i find that to be really conclusive. everything else is trying to provoke racism and race favoritism where there is none. on either sides.

BlindSite
10-31-2008, 03:17 PM
here's another quote of it all, from the NYT

"According to the survey, the most desirable attributes in a head coach were good communication skills, followed by motivational skills, approachability, management skills and leading by example.

There were also significant differences between white and black players. For instance, respect and trust were listed by all players as crucial components for successful relationships, but white players expressed more trust and respect for their head coaches than black players.

“Who would have thought that the most important things to players is that the coach respects them?” Zuberi said. “This has a fundamental impact on the players’ attitudes toward the coaches. I didn’t expect that white players would trust and respect their coaches more than black players.”

Another distinction was that African-American players were not entirely race neutral when it came to head coaches. Race matters.

Although all players agreed on the top 10 most desirable head coaches, there were subtle differences between white and black players.

Among all players, Dungy was selected as the top coach. White players ranked Belichick second, Smith third, the Denver Broncos’ Mike Shanahan fourth and the Tennessee Titans’ Jeff Fisher fifth.

Black players ranked Smith second, Belichick third, Edwards fourth and Tomlin fifth.

Edwards was sixth among white players, and Shanahan dropped to ninth among black players. Mike Holmgren of Seattle was ranked seventh among white players and 13th among black players."

bold: mine.

if we're going by the 'race' card... black players wouldn't have put belichick third, if they're clearly choosing by race. and as far as the 'alignment of values'. the black coaches listed tend to exemplify said values towards their players. HENCE. You'll get people with the same values, voting for the same guys.

I think their desire to win a superbowl, him being the most likely coach to do it again in the next 5 years might over ride their support of black coaches.

Gay Ork Wang
10-31-2008, 03:18 PM
wait, every great coach has about the same chance, id say the team is way more important to determine a SB win. Its not like Belichick won all those superbowls because of his scheming. It was more Brady

Sniper
11-01-2008, 07:05 AM
wait, every great coach has about the same chance, id say the team is way more important to determine a SB win. Its not like Belichick won all those superbowls because of his scheming. It was more Brady

Amusing, because whenever someone brings up Brady's three rings, 75% of this board says it was because of Belichick and the defense.

Gay Ork Wang
11-01-2008, 08:16 AM
Amusing, because whenever someone brings up Brady's three rings, 75% of this board says it was because of Belichick and the defense.
its certainly both, but when u needed Captain Clutch, he was there. What i mean is, its not like Bill won them on his own, they needed Vinateri and the Tuck Rule and often some miracle plays to make it.

scottyboy
11-01-2008, 08:22 AM
I also heard that Herm plays to win the game. any conformation on this?

Sniper
11-01-2008, 08:49 AM
I also heard that Herm plays to win the game. any conformation on this?

I can indeed provide confirmation on this.

bored of education
11-01-2008, 10:25 AM
I also heard that Herm plays to win the game. any conformation on this?

YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!

awfullyquiet
11-02-2008, 10:31 AM
its certainly both, but when u needed Captain Clutch, he was there. What i mean is, its not like Bill won them on his own, they needed Vinateri and the Tuck Rule and often some miracle plays to make it.

i think renji provided the best explanation... that and it was extraordinarly difficult to separate what BB was doing and what Brady was doing sometimes

Shane P. Hallam
11-02-2008, 10:50 AM
I also heard that Herm plays to win the game. any conformation on this?

I'm awaiting toonster to verify this rumor...

bored of education
11-02-2008, 10:51 AM
I'm awaiting toonster to verify this rumor...

im waiting for Dirk to clarify this issue

Staubach12
11-02-2008, 12:58 PM
Herm is good, and I've always liked him. He'll turn KC around soon. They had a great draft last year.

Paranoidmoonduck
11-02-2008, 03:02 PM
the top three. the same people. i find that to be really conclusive. everything else is trying to provoke racism and race favoritism where there is none. on either sides.

Not really sure why assuming that African-American players would somewhat favor African-American coaches is racist or inflammatory. People identify with people that they feel they share some kind of connection with. People of the same or similar race tend to share that connection moreso than with those of a different race.

It's one thing to say that the claim was made without proper evidence (although it really isn't much of a stretch), but it's another to fly off the handle and portray as some huge racial slight when it really isn't.

Anyway, I thought it interesting that Belichick got named to both the most and least wanted head coaches.

SuperKevin
11-02-2008, 03:10 PM
Herm is good, and I've always liked him. He'll turn KC around soon. They had a great draft last year.

If he's given the chance. He very well might get fired this year

SchizophrenicBatman
11-02-2008, 03:18 PM
Herm is not a good football coach. He's a good players coach but that only goes so far. He'd do really well in college, however

iBoldin
11-02-2008, 03:48 PM
I'm awaiting toonster to verify this rumor...

Where is Toonster these days? I used to love his mocks.

bored of education
11-02-2008, 05:22 PM
Where is Toonster these days? I used to love his mocks.

GMing your favorite team

awfullyquiet
11-03-2008, 09:50 AM
If he's given the chance. He very well might get fired this year

no way.

hunt has said that he has no plans.
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/chiefs/story/843090.html


Q: Do you have the right people in place to see the Chiefs through this rebuilding process?

Hunt: I think so. I would point to our draft this year. At the time, we felt good about it. Five games into the season, I feel equally good about it. The staff, including the coaching staff, did a great job of identifying the type of players they felt would be a good fit, the type of players they felt could become starting players in the NFL, the type of players they felt would become good Chiefs. The coordination and the sharing of a common perspective between the scouting department and the coaching staff is as good as I can remember it in the last 10 years.

Is Herm Edwards doing a good job?

I think he is. Certainly, competing in the NFL with as many rookies as we have on our team and as many rookies as we have in our starting lineup is difficult. But Herm is doing the right thing. He’s giving those players experience. I’m sure to some degree, some of those decisions are very tough. But he knows where he wants to go and what he needs to do to get there.

sure, some of the NFL press conf. are just lip service, but, i don't see why he'd be giving this if he wasn't planning on doing this.