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d34ng3l021
11-03-2008, 10:26 AM
Here is a list of statistics that I think get overlooked when judging a player. A QB rating is decent in combining comp. %, TDs thrown, and interceptions, but its still a poor way to judge a QB. Interceptions are the same thing.

Yards Per Attempt
Like I said, the QB rating is nice, but one awesome statistic is the YPA. This is where you get the idea of how the QB plays. Is he the type of guy to check down constantly to his backs and TE or is he a guy who will take shots downfield to keep the defense honest? If you add this statistic with the comp. %, you can really gauge the type of player he is. High YPA, low comp % = Gunslinger. Low YPA, high comp. % = Captain Checkdown.

Fumbles lost
When taking into account how well a QB does, we only refer to interceptions, yet fumbles lost can often be even more devastating, especially because they occur 5-10 yards behind the LOS, as oppose to an interception which is more downfield. A lost fumble by a QB can change the momentum so much more than an interception. At least you can think of some picks as punts. Lost fumbles by the QB? Blocked punts. Also, lost fumbles might even let you know about the QB's pocket presence. How often does he realize he is being pressured? Does he know he can get off that throw in time?

Sacks allowed/ Penalties
This stat only gets overlooked because official sites like NFL.com or ESPN.com do not have it, but there are a few places that update every week or so that have a way to rate offensive lineman. I dont know the site off the top of my head, but I will add it later if I find out. Its impossible to watch every game and watch the offensive tackle each time to gauge their performance, but by the end of the season, the number of sacks they have given up along with the number of penalties garnered, you might have a good idea of who the top performers of the season are. Looking at the number of times the team passed might be a good idea as well.

Drops
A lot more widely used statistic than previous ones, but drops can often kill drives and momentum. Number of receptions with YPC and YAC is great, you look at guys like Larry Fitzgerald and Marvin Harrison and there are consistent guys you can count on every play. Braylon Edwards and Terrell Owens? Not nearly as much.

Pressures
Sacks are very hard to get, especially considering that a QB can usually avoid the pressure of one of the guys on D and throw the ball away or throw to a checkdown, but pressures are where its at. You pressure a QB into getting sacked by another player. You pressure a guy to waste a play by throwing it away. You pressure a guy to make a dumb throw. I know this statistic is available somewhere, but once again, its really hard to come by.

Tackles for losses
Tackles are nice, but they can be made all over the field and they still show up the same. You can tackle a guy 1 yard past the LOS and it would show up as the same thing as tackling him 5-6 yards downfield. Tackles for losses helps figure out how well the player is getting penetration and how instinctive they may be. Of course you cannot just judge a player based on this statistic, but for DL, it really does help.

Thrown at/ Completed
This statistic is really hard to come by, especially because theres often confusion about whether the player was playing zone or man, but in order to judge a CB, anything may be better than interceptions. Interceptions probably occur more time than not with over or under thrown passes, rather than good coverage. It really does annoy me when people try to use the Player A has more interceptions than Player B. The point of a CB is to play such tight coverage and not get passes thrown his way, in which case, how is he going to rack up interceptions like other CBs?

They really need to revamp the statistic system and make these stats available to the public. I know they have a lot of these, as they are often flashed during game time, but would it be too hard to upload them on a site?

Feel free to add more of what you think.

fenikz
11-03-2008, 10:52 AM
Yesterday I think Thom Brenneman nearly had a heart attack when he saw Fitz actually drop a ball

PoopSandwich
11-03-2008, 11:10 AM
Drops - Braylon.

ShutDwn
11-03-2008, 11:18 AM
Pressures is a stat I wish they kept more. Sacks are awesome, but pressures can lead to even bigger plays. A player can have two sacks in a game but could have been nonexistent other than those two plays, whereas a player could have no sacks but could have been in the backfield all day and caused poor throws and turnovers.

bored of education
11-03-2008, 11:19 AM
Block Shedding %!!!

Sniper
11-03-2008, 11:19 AM
I wish they kept better DB stats. I know deangelo said passes thrown at/completed, but it'd be nice if there was a total breakdown of stats against zone, man coverage, thrown at/completed, ypa etc... available. It's kind of annoying not having it.

bored of education
11-03-2008, 11:21 AM
I wish they kept better DB stats. I know deangelo said passes thrown at/completed, but it'd be nice if there was a total breakdown of stats against zone, man coverage, thrown at/completed, ypa etc... available. It's kind of annoying not having it.


A stat similar to OBP? That type of stat or more like VORP?

Turtlepower
11-03-2008, 11:26 AM
Where is Bruce Banner and T24L arguing about Sabr and a bunch of crappy computer stats used in baseball?

Sniper
11-03-2008, 11:28 AM
A stat similar to OBP? That type of stat or more like VORP?

Kind of like a VORP. I mean, I want to know if Nnamdi Asomugha gets thrown at 60 times all season, how many were in zone? How many were in man? How many were completed? What was the longest pass completed? It would give a lot more credit to corners who don't rack up INTs.

For example, Asante Samuel leads the Eagles in interceptions, yet Sheldon Brown has been a better pure coverage corner.

bored of education
11-03-2008, 11:30 AM
Yeah, that would be a cool stat to come up with. A true reflection of one's season.

Sniper
11-03-2008, 11:34 AM
Another good one would be "First Downs Allowed By a DB". I think it'd be interesting.

Turtlepower
11-03-2008, 11:35 AM
TD Receptions by QBs. Tyler Thigpen would be the MVP based on that category.

bored of education
11-03-2008, 11:37 AM
TD Receptions by QBs. Tyler Thigpen would be the MVP based on that category.

www.truth.com!!!!!!!!

PoopSandwich
11-03-2008, 11:44 AM
TD Receptions by QBs. Tyler Thigpen would be the MVP based on that category.

Only because Flacco fell over!

Menardo75
11-03-2008, 02:07 PM
I think pancake blocks, or flat backs for O-line needs to be a stat thats added.

Gay Ork Wang
11-03-2008, 02:10 PM
I feel like in Team stats, teams should count Yards per Pass Attempt more than just yards given up just like for Rush defense

bigbluedefense
11-03-2008, 02:11 PM
how about hurries that led to turnovers?

tackles behind or @ the LOS

Gay Ork Wang
11-03-2008, 02:18 PM
id like to see all the tackles. Made TFL, T1-3, t3-9, t10.

Brent
11-03-2008, 02:20 PM
I think first downs per passing attempt is one that would be interesting.

Sniper
11-03-2008, 02:26 PM
I feel like in Team stats, teams should count Yards per Pass Attempt more than just yards given up just like for Rush defense

They do.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2008&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&d-447263-o=2&conference=ALL&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_AVERAGE_YARDS&d-447263-n=1

Sniper
11-03-2008, 02:27 PM
I think first downs per passing attempt is one that would be interesting.

Check out the link I posted.

Gay Ork Wang
11-03-2008, 02:34 PM
They do.

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?season=2008&seasonType=REG&defensiveStatisticCategory=TEAM_PASSING&d-447263-o=2&conference=ALL&tabSeq=2&role=OPP&d-447263-p=1&d-447263-s=PASSING_AVERAGE_YARDS&d-447263-n=1
I know they do, i meant that they should use that to determine what team is the best rush/pass defense

awfullyquiet
11-03-2008, 03:39 PM
I think pancake blocks, or flat backs for O-line needs to be a stat thats added.

this isn't madden. pancake blocks are completely irrelevant and do nothing to describe how tackles and o-linemen are doing their job.

so. no. that stat does not need to be added. anytime. anywhere.

Gay Ork Wang
11-03-2008, 03:40 PM
Sacks allowed and pressures allowed would be nice

awfullyquiet
11-03-2008, 03:45 PM
i believe that TFL and Hurries are more important than sacks... well. as much as TFL's are actually sort of sacks anyways in their own right.

the problem is is that there are zero consistencies in reporting tackles. let alone deciphering tfl's and hurries.

illmatic74
11-03-2008, 05:58 PM
In the NFL most games or decided by who has the best ypa.

CJSchneider
11-03-2008, 06:53 PM
Yards Per Attempt
Like I said, the QB rating is nice, but one awesome statistic is the YPA. This is where you get the idea of how the QB plays. Is he the type of guy to check down constantly to his backs and TE or is he a guy who will take shots downfield to keep the defense honest? If you add this statistic with the comp. %, you can really gauge the type of player he is. High YPA, low comp % = Gunslinger. Low YPA, high comp. % = Captain Checkdown.


Just curious, which would you prefer? One needs to point out "will take shots downfield" is not entirely important, well at least not as important as perhaps "sends routes downfield". I'd rather have a QB that hits the constant 5-10 yard pass (not counting YAC - which would be another interesting statistic-YPA+YAC average) as opposed to the Gunslinger who throws the bomb, unsuccessfully at times, and slows the teams momentum.

d34ng3l021
11-03-2008, 07:18 PM
Just curious, which would you prefer? One needs to point out "will take shots downfield" is not entirely important, well at least not as important as perhaps "sends routes downfield". I'd rather have a QB that hits the constant 5-10 yard pass (not counting YAC - which would be another interesting statistic-YPA+YAC average) as opposed to the Gunslinger who throws the bomb, unsuccessfully at times, and slows the teams momentum.

Well of course a balance of each would be preferred, and extremes of both cases are just no good. I guess I thought a lot about this during the ATL-OAK game whenever the Raiders offense was on the field. Russell never looked downfield. He may have looked for a second or two, but just ended up throwing it to his TE or RB. It was pretty pathetic.

If I were to pick the extremes (what you described was not an extreme in my opinion. I am thinking David Carr esque. Like 5 YPA), I would take the gunslinger. Even though it may be unsuccessful most of the time, it can at least keep the defense honest and open up the run game. With the guy trying to complete short passes only, the teams can just stack the box and not be scared of being beat deep. This is what is often done against rookie or ineffective QBs. They dare them to be beaten by the past and the QBs sometimes just cant do it.

CJSchneider
11-03-2008, 08:04 PM
Even though it may be unsuccessful most of the time, it can at least keep the defense honest and open up the run game. With the guy trying to complete short passes only, the teams can just stack the box and not be scared of being beat deep. This is what is often done against rookie or ineffective QBs. They dare them to be beaten by the past and the QBs sometimes just cant do it.

From a coach's standpoint, throwing the deep ball doesn't keep a defense honest; running the route is far greater a factor.
If it were a spectrum with perfect balance in the middle, I'd prefer a QB closer to the Captain Checkdown extreme.

OzTitan
11-04-2008, 01:17 AM
YPA is a good stat, but not entirely on the QB. Take the Pats v Broncos recently. Cassel's YPA was basically enhanced by the YAC of his WR's. I doubt the stat is kept at all, but the best measurement would obviously be yards per catch at the point of catch.

djp
11-04-2008, 01:28 AM
A stat that is overlooked when judging o-lineman is yards per attempt to their side.

A stat that is overlooked is amount of drives over 60-65 yards that result in points. To me that is a true measure of a great offense.

A stat that needs to be kept is tackle percentage. How often did a player miss a tackle?

Just a couple off the top of my head.

Bruce Banner
11-04-2008, 01:35 AM
Where is Bruce Banner and T24L arguing about Sabr and a bunch of crappy computer stats used in baseball?

So crappy that every MLB team has a department dedicated to them.

and T24L is probably dead.

Drops - Braylon.

There is a stat that takes this a step further, though I don't know where to find it.

It records the % of the time that a receiver catches the ball when the ball is intended for them. The league average was something like 59-61% last year. Braylon only caught 52% of the balls intended for him. I'm not sure if these "intended" passes have to be considered "catchable" to be used, so Derek Anderson could be the leading factor (but we really know he isn't [56.5 completion]...Braylon's butterfingers are). I am completely disregarding any other factors here, such as QB-WR chemistry and such.

If someone could take it a step further and weight the percentages (with a formula I have yet to/never will determine) based on which QB is throwing the ball, that could be the best indicator of a player's "hands"......assuming the sample size is large enough to be deemed usable, 80-90 attempts minimum?

Despite the sketchiness, I think we can develop tools that would allow us to measure a player's individual worth in the NFL.

awfullyquiet
11-04-2008, 09:41 AM
i think we can too.

the NFL is just the old boys club, insular and unwilling to change.

to get started at this though. there needs to be standardization as to record keeping. which can be done. normalizing the records wouldn't be too difficult.