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Toneloc498
11-03-2008, 09:24 PM
We all know the permier players on defense are usually Defensive Ends, who do you guys think are the top Defensive Ends in football, accouting for all aspects of playing DE (Run stopping, Pass rushing, contain). This is a tough question and I am having trouble putting together my list in order of whos better, got some sick talent right now at the position. Ill post my list when I get it finished.

Caddy
11-03-2008, 09:29 PM
Mario Williams. The end.

d34ng3l021
11-03-2008, 09:33 PM
So you are asking us which are the better DEs, and then you will make a list, probably using our opinions?

Well there are 2 types of DEs, 3-4 and 4-3.

In terms of overall ability, heres how a couple of the more balanced DEs in the league (no particular order):

Jared Allen, Mario Williams, Justin Tuck, Aaron Kampman, Trent Cole, Patrick Kerney, Julius Peppers, Osi Umyeniora, John Abraham (his run game has developed so much).

I am probably missing a couple guys.

Toneloc498
11-03-2008, 09:42 PM
So you are asking us which are the better DEs, and then you will make a list, probably using our opinions?

Well there are 2 types of DEs, 3-4 and 4-3.

In terms of overall ability, heres how a couple of the more balanced DEs in the league (no particular order):

Jared Allen, Mario Williams, Justin Tuck, Aaron Kampman, Trent Cole, Patrick Kerney, Julius Peppers, Osi Umyeniora, John Abraham (his run game has developed so much).

I am probably missing a couple guys.

No I will not be using your opinions, im having trouble trying to figure out whos number 1 actually on my list:

1. Mario Williams/Justin Tuck
3. Richard Seymour (if you consider him a DE)
4. Jared Allen
5. Julius Peppers
6. John Abraham
7. Trent Cole (very underrated in his run D)
8. Osi Umyeniora (his run D has gotten better but not dominant yet)
9. Patrick Kerney (man is a beast with a non stop motor)
10. Aaron Kampman
11. Shaun Ellis (very underrated player)
12. Will Smith (Roids?)

Thats my list

GB12
11-03-2008, 09:42 PM
4-3 only

1. Mario Williams
2. Aaron Kampman
3. Justin Tuck
4. Patrick Kearny
5. Jared Allen
6. John Abraham
7. Osi Umenyiora
8. Kyle Vanden Bosch
9. Julius Peppers
10. Trent Cole

619
11-03-2008, 09:43 PM
Mario Williams. The end.

Justin Tuck would like a word with you .

katnip
11-03-2008, 09:49 PM
No Haloti Ngata? The guy Ray Lew' said about having in front of him. He's a DE technically?

tjsunstein
11-03-2008, 10:02 PM
Nip - Tuck and Super Mario are the two absolutely elite. Followed By Kampman, Jared Allen, and others but Justin Tuck and Mario Williams warrant their own tier of eliteness.

d34ng3l021
11-03-2008, 10:04 PM
You cant have a list with both 3-4 and 4-3 ends. Completely different positions and its nearly impossible to compare.

Sniper
11-03-2008, 10:17 PM
Ends, not end's.

Mario Williams. Good night.

RaiderNation
11-03-2008, 10:44 PM
Super Mario, Tuck, Abraham, Allen, Kampman are beasts this season

Toneloc498
11-03-2008, 10:49 PM
Ends, not end's.

Mario Williams. Good night.

I think you can make quite a good argument that Tuck is as good as Mario or possibly even better. They both are having monster years and are defenitly the #1 and 2 DE's in the league.

Vikes99ej
11-03-2008, 10:49 PM
Justin Tuck would like a word with you .

So he can tell him Mario Williams is the best?

Malaka
11-03-2008, 10:50 PM
My Top Ten DEs (4-3 DEs)

1. Mario Williams
2. Justin Tuck
3. Jared Allen
4. Aaron Kampman
5. Osi Umenyiora
6. John Abraham
7. Patrick Kearney
8. Julius Peppers
9. Trent Cole
10. Dwight Freeney

illmatic74
11-03-2008, 10:54 PM
3-4
1. Luis Castillo
2. Richard Seymour
3. Haloti Ngata

Mr. Stiller
11-03-2008, 11:00 PM
3-4
1. Luis Castillo
2. Richard Seymour
3. Haloti Ngata

Wow thats bad.

1) Haloti Ngata
2) Aaron Smith
3) Ty Warren
4) Richard Seymour
5) Trevor Pryce
6) Luis Castillo
7) Brett Keisel
8) Shaun Smith
9) Kendall Langford
10) Igor Olshansky

CashmoneyDrew
11-03-2008, 11:01 PM
4-3 only

1. Mario Williams
2. Aaron Kampman
3. Justin Tuck
4. Patrick Kearny
5. Jared Allen
6. John Abraham
7. Osi Umenyiora
8. Kyle Vanden Bosch
9. Julius Peppers
10. Trent Cole

Thank God someone in here has some sense.

Malaka
11-03-2008, 11:07 PM
Wow thats bad.

1) Haloti Ngata
2) Aaron Smith
3) Ty Warren
4) Richard Seymour
5) Trevor Pryce
6) Luis Castillo
7) Brett Keisel
8) Shaun Smith
9) Kendall Langford
10) Igor Olshansky

Aaron Smith is a top 5 3-4 DE not top 2 IMO.

My top 5 3-4 DEs

1. Haloti Ngata
2. Ty Warren
3. Luis Castillo
4. Aaron Smith
5. Richard Seymour

Pokeys
11-03-2008, 11:24 PM
Anybody think a change of scenery will help Peppers? There was a time where he was easily one of the top defensive players in the league, but since then his play has dropped off a bit and hes not producing like he should be.

iloxygenil
11-03-2008, 11:26 PM
This board is WAY too high on Mario Williams, he's good, but he's not the best DE in the NFL, not close. To be elite it has to be sustained, he hasn't sustained it nearly long enough, and he's not even the best DE this year. John Abraham gets that title with Justin Tuck sticking his nose in the picture as well. Man you people are crazy for big names regardless of facts.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-03-2008, 11:27 PM
So he can tell him Mario Williams is the best?

Yeah but we didn't have to spend the first overall pick for him nor pay him a contract that big. We basically went bargain hunting and found someone in that elite category. We did that with Osi as well, and Kiwi is panning out too. lol. So I'd rather go bargaining hunting and give props to our GM and scouts for that then gamble with the first overall pick and pay that contract. Now having said that Williams is a sick DE.

terribletowel39
11-03-2008, 11:28 PM
Aaron Smith is a top 5 3-4 DE not top 2 IMO.

My top 5 3-4 DEs

1. Haloti Ngata
2. Ty Warren
3. Luis Castillo
4. Aaron Smith
5. Richard Seymour

There are different jobs in a 34 defense as well. With what they are asked to do, Aaron Smith is #1. I'm pretty sure Stiller is tired of being called a homer which is why he put Ngata above Smith. Sure Ngata rushes the passer better but there isn't a 34 end in the game that stops the run better and takes up space on pass plays than Smith.

Malaka
11-03-2008, 11:38 PM
There are different jobs in a 34 defense as well. With what they are asked to do, Aaron Smith is #1. I'm pretty sure Stiller is tired of being called a homer which is why he put Ngata above Smith. Sure Ngata rushes the passer better but there isn't a 34 end in the game that stops the run better and takes up space on pass plays than Smith.

I am not taking away from how good Aaron Smith is, I just would take Haloti, Ty and Luis ahead of him, Aaron Smith is a great player and is a huge reason why the Steelers have the best rush defense in the league. We have varying opinions but in no way am I saying Smith is bad.

Vox Populi
11-03-2008, 11:38 PM
This board is WAY too high on Mario Williams, he's good, but he's not the best DE in the NFL, not close. To be elite it has to be sustained, he hasn't sustained it nearly long enough, and he's not even the best DE this year. John Abraham gets that title with Justin Tuck sticking his nose in the picture as well. Man you people are crazy for big names regardless of facts.

Thanks for the insight, Abraham lover ;)

What inconsistency has Williams had that Abe hasn't this season? Didn't Abe just come off a stretch of 3 games without a sack before dismantling the Raiders joke of a left tackle, Kwame Harris... I think Abe is money, but hes practically a more one dimensional version of Williams who is a better end overall without question.

This year so far I'd put Justin Tuck on top of my list followed by Mario Williams, Richard Seymour, John Abraham, Jarred Allen, Aaron Kampman and Gaines Adams. In that order.

Also, Osi Umenyiora is way too low on all of these lists. Next year he is going to be up around the top of all these lists along with Tuck. Next year the Giants defense is just going to be nasty with a more experienced secondary and hopefully a more talented pair of outside linebackers and an even deeper defensive line rotation with more overall talent. Scary. So lucky for the rest of the league that Osi and Strahan aren't still kicking around kicking it around for the Giants. I don't think any QB they'd play would be able to play 4 full quarters... (yes this is an exaggeration, but think about the fact that they are playing with their backup rotational guy and a linebacker from last year)

SMoore
11-03-2008, 11:39 PM
This board is WAY too high on Mario Williams, he's good, but he's not the best DE in the NFL, not close. To be elite it has to be sustained, he hasn't sustained it nearly long enough, and he's not even the best DE this year. John Abraham gets that title with Justin Tuck sticking his nose in the picture as well. Man you people are crazy for big names regardless of facts.

If you're going to drop Williams for not having been on top for long enough, you have to knock Tuck down to. This is the first year he has been a full time starter.

But overall, I would rank Williams just a slight bit higher than Tuck, although it's really close.

terribletowel39
11-03-2008, 11:42 PM
I am not taking away from how good Aaron Smith is, I just would take Haloti, Ty and Luis ahead of him, Aaron Smith is a great player and is a huge reason why the Steelers have the best rush defense in the league. We have varying opinions but in no way am I saying Smith is bad.

Oh I mean obviously you weren't saying he was bad. I was just pointing out for what the Steelers ask of their ends, Smith is the best at what they ask.

giantsfan
11-04-2008, 12:02 AM
Thanks for the insight, Abraham lover ;)

What inconsistency has Williams had that Abe hasn't this season? Didn't Abe just come off a stretch of 3 games without a sack before dismantling the Raiders joke of a left tackle, Kwame Harris... I think Abe is money, but hes practically a more one dimensional version of Williams who is a better end overall without question.

This year so far I'd put Justin Tuck on top of my list followed by Mario Williams, Richard Seymour, John Abraham, Jarred Allen, Aaron Kampman and Gaines Adams. In that order.

Also, Osi Umenyiora is way too low on all of these lists. Next year he is going to be up around the top of all these lists along with Tuck. Next year the Giants defense is just going to be nasty with a more experienced secondary and hopefully a more talented pair of outside linebackers and an even deeper defensive line rotation with more overall talent. Scary. So lucky for the rest of the league that Osi and Strahan aren't still kicking around kicking it around for the Giants. I don't think any QB they'd play would be able to play 4 full quarters... (yes this is an exaggeration, but think about the fact that they are playing with their backup rotational guy and a linebacker from last year)

Add to Osi, Tuck and kiwi that we might go DE on day one in this draft and Tollefson is playing very well right now and our D should be just nasty next season.

Mr. Stiller
11-04-2008, 01:06 AM
Oh I mean obviously you weren't saying he was bad. I was just pointing out for what the Steelers ask of their ends, Smith is the best at what they ask.

We're really the only team that utilizes a "Zone Blitz" Scheme (And Frankly we rarely even blitz with Wood, Deebo, Timmons and Farrior getting to the QB with regularity)..

Smith is by no means a passrusher... but he's just one of those guys I feel is like Fred Taylor and the pro-bowl, he's been consistently one of, if not the best in the league for going on 5-6 years now.

I don't Think Castillo, Warren could do what he does in our system.

The reason I put Ngata ahead is because Ngata has the capabilities to be a monster in the Aaron Smith mold, but he's got 30+LBs on Smith, has better athleticism and can actually drop in coverage at points. He's more Athletic.. But There's no way if I could fantasy pick my team Smith wouldn't be my SDE. Ngata would likely be my WDE as well.

iloxygenil
11-04-2008, 09:20 AM
If you're going to drop Williams for not having been on top for long enough, you have to knock Tuck down to. This is the first year he has been a full time starter.

But overall, I would rank Williams just a slight bit higher than Tuck, although it's really close.

Tuck did it all last season from multiple positions and did it again this year when the 'top' 2 DEs left his defensive line. He's done very well. Williams did okay last year, and has done well this year, but that's about it.

People can hate on Abe, and yes, 3 games without a sack, WHO CARES?! does that mean he wasn't making tackles and getting pressure? nope, sure doesn't. You wanna talk about inconsistent, talk about Osi...7 sacks 1 game, a huge percentage of his sacks came against a rookie pitiful LT. So talk about that.

Abe has been the only force on the Falcons DL and getting 2-3 blockers every play and STILL beating the double teams for sacks. Jamaal has started getting pressure now too, and it's really in large part because of the focus on Abe.

bored of education
11-04-2008, 09:24 AM
1. Abe

2. who cares!!!!!

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 09:24 AM
People can hate on Abe, and yes, 3 games without a sack, WHO CARES?! does that mean he wasn't making tackles and getting pressure? nope, sure doesn't. You wanna talk about inconsistent, talk about Osi...7 sacks 1 game, a huge percentage of his sacks came against a rookie pitiful LT. So talk about that.
People do. A lot. Doesnt mean they are wrong with the other thing.
Abraham is not the best DE in the game.

TitanHope
11-04-2008, 09:34 AM
1. Kyle Vanden Bosch
2. Albert Haynesworth
3. Jevon Kearse
4. Tony Brown
5. Dave Ball
6. Jason Jones
7. Jacob Ford
8. William Hayes

That's my list! :D

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 09:43 AM
Tuck did it all last season from multiple positions and did it again this year when the 'top' 2 DEs left his defensive line. He's done very well. Williams did okay last year, and has done well this year, but that's about it.

People can hate on Abe, and yes, 3 games without a sack, WHO CARES?! does that mean he wasn't making tackles and getting pressure? nope, sure doesn't. You wanna talk about inconsistent, talk about Osi...7 sacks 1 game, a huge percentage of his sacks came against a rookie pitiful LT. So talk about that.

Abe has been the only force on the Falcons DL and getting 2-3 blockers every play and STILL beating the double teams for sacks. Jamaal has started getting pressure now too, and it's really in large part because of the focus on Abe.

Yeah you about Osi, but that's typical stat watching. Why do you think our DL is soo effective?? It's because we cycle guys in and out all the time. It's not like we leave Osi or Strahan out there for the whole game and they get shutout. What happens is we cycle them in and out, when your in if you don't get a sack, you move on for the next guy, which would be Tuck or Tollefson.

Not to mention Osi was injuried last season. He hurt himself in the season opener which lingered and then hurt himself after the Eagles game. He was playing through a Hip injury which was supposed to keep him out for at least 2 months.

Osi out for 2 months ...
http://blog.nj.com/ledgergiants/2007/09/osi_out_for_2_months.html

Rayray52
11-04-2008, 10:04 AM
This board is WAY too high on Mario Williams, he's good, but he's not the best DE in the NFL, not close. To be elite it has to be sustained, he hasn't sustained it nearly long enough, and he's not even the best DE this year. John Abraham gets that title with Justin Tuck sticking his nose in the picture as well. Man you people are crazy for big names regardless of facts.


Biggest homer/Mario hater on the board? i think so, just a pathetic post.

Also what has happened to Dwight Freeney he was never a great all around DE but he was an elite pass rusher before the guy has been silent the last 3 years havent heard his name in forever

Sniper
11-04-2008, 10:07 AM
This board is WAY too high on Mario Williams, he's good, but he's not the best DE in the NFL, not close. To be elite it has to be sustained, he hasn't sustained it nearly long enough, and he's not even the best DE this year. John Abraham gets that title with Justin Tuck sticking his nose in the picture as well. Man you people are crazy for big names regardless of facts.

Do you ever ******* stop with your goddamn Falcons homerism? Jesus ******* Christ, stop. It's unbelievably ******* annoying.

TitanHope
11-04-2008, 10:14 AM
iloxygenil makes good points, but because he's a Falcons fan, he's automatically a homer. Jeez...

John Abraham is having an absolutely outstanding year. No one can argue against that. The only 4-3 DE close to him sack-wise is Tuck, who is trailing by 1.5 sacks. Super Mario is trailing by 2 sacks.

Abraham is having a monster season, so who's to argue that he's not playing like the best DE in the NFL? He may not be the best for the long term, but that point is not strong enough to discredit Abe's performance in this current season and validate guys who may be deemed as more likely to keep up their production.

And yes, Mario Williams is over rated by many posters. He's in the conversation, but saying he's the undisputed #1 DE is a stretch.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 10:23 AM
iloxygenil makes good points, but because he's a Falcons fan, he's automatically a homer. Jeez...

John Abraham is having an absolutely outstanding year. No one can argue against that. The only 4-3 DE close to him sack-wise is Tuck, who is trailing by 1.5 sacks. Super Mario is trailing by 2 sacks.

Abraham is having a monster season, so who's to argue that he's not playing like the best DE in the NFL? He may not be the best for the long term, but that point is not strong enough to discredit Abe's performance in this current season and validate guys who may be deemed as more likely to keep up their production.

And yes, Mario Williams is over rated by many posters. He's in the conversation, but saying he's the undisputed #1 DE is a stretch.


John Abraham will always be under appreciated because the dude can't stay healthy for the life of him. When he is healthy he is very good, otherwise he is on the bench with an injury.

katnip
11-04-2008, 10:24 AM
Haloti Ngata... bbbooooooyyy

Sniper
11-04-2008, 10:29 AM
iloxygenil makes good points, but because he's a Falcons fan, he's automatically a homer. Jeez...



He's automatically a homer because every one of his posts fawn over some Falcons player.

TitanHope
11-04-2008, 10:53 AM
So Sniper, how's every Michigan player in the NFL doin?

Lamarr Woodley sucks, btw...

:D

619
11-04-2008, 10:59 AM
So he can tell him Mario Williams is the best?

Nah. It's 1a / 1b between Super Mario and Tuck for me in whatever order.

terribletowel39
11-04-2008, 11:12 AM
So Sniper, how's every Michigan player in the NFL doin?

Lamarr Woodley sucks, btw...

:D
for that Lamar Woodley is going to abuse your RT in week 16. Kerry Collins might actually die on the field.

marks01234
11-04-2008, 11:15 AM
Tuck did it all last season from multiple positions and did it again this year when the 'top' 2 DEs left his defensive line. He's done very well. Williams did okay last year, and has done well this year, but that's about it.



14.5 sacks last year is ok to you? 10 sacks in the last seven games?

Yea, Mario had a pretty average rookie season. He was a 21 year old rookie who was playing through a toe injury and playing all four defensive line positions to help the Texans. Referencing that as to why he shouldn't not be considered the NFL top DE is really weak.

If you think Tuck is a better DE than Mario, that is fine. I will disagree with you and that is fine too. But for goodness sake, base it off the past 16 games, not what happened 2 and half years ago.

bigbluedefense
11-04-2008, 11:18 AM
I think Mario Williams is the best, followed by Tuck, but its close.

I love Tuck's versatility. He can play LE, RE, UT in the 4-3.

In a 3-4 he's capable of playing both End spots, and both rushbacker spots. He's probably the most versatile pass rusher in the game.

giantsfan
11-04-2008, 11:22 AM
I think Mario Williams is the best, followed by Tuck, but its close.

I love Tuck's versatility. He can play LE, RE, UT in the 4-3.

In a 3-4 he's capable of playing both End spots, and both rushbacker spots. He's probably the most versatile pass rusher in the game.

Kiwi has played UT, LE, RE and SLB for us, so once he really comes into his own and breaks out he'll hold that title. His recent play is especially pleasing as he seems to be comfortable at DE again, hopefully that doesn't mean he'll have to re-adjust to full time LB for long over the summer if we move him back.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 11:24 AM
I think Mario Williams is the best, followed by Tuck, but its close.

I love Tuck's versatility. He can play LE, RE, UT in the 4-3.

In a 3-4 he's capable of playing both End spots, and both rushbacker spots. He's probably the most versatile pass rusher in the game.

I think it's close. I think Williams will always be statisically better in his system than Tuck in ours. We fire zone, meaning we ask more of our DEs than they do of Williams. Tuck is playing LE, RE, and UT, and when we fire zone, Tuck is getting Curl to flat on those plays. So his versatility is what I would value more. But people who look at stats will always see Williams ahead.

When we firezone Tuck can't get a sack, not to mention, we rotate ALL our ends to keep them fresh, so he will be on the sideline alot as well too. We basically are going to use Kiwi, Tuck, Wynn, McDougal and Tollefson. When Osi comes back add him to the list of guys coming in and out. The fact we are talking about Tuck and Williams is a great thing. One is the first overall pick and the other is a 3rd rounder...

Personally I like Tuck better because of the value and versatility he brings. Not to mention he is getting these stats in a system where we have other guys rotating with him, and in a system where he has to cover in space as well when we firezone.

bigbluedefense
11-04-2008, 11:24 AM
Kiwi has played UT, LE, RE and SLB for us, so once he really comes into his own and breaks out he'll hold that title. His recent play is especially pleasing as he seems to be comfortable at DE again, hopefully that doesn't mean he'll have to re-adjust to full time LB for long over the summer if we move him back.

Kiwi is another stud in the making. Kiwi is a great DE in his own right, a diff style from Tuck. The diff is, Tuck can hold up as a full time UT, whereas Kiwi is only a UT sometimes in obvious passing downs.

Tuck is strong enough that you can throw him there full time and not become a liability in the run game.

CashmoneyDrew
11-04-2008, 11:25 AM
for that Lamar Woodley is going to abuse your RT in week 16. Kerry Collins might actually die on the field.

Big Country can hold his own.

bigbluedefense
11-04-2008, 11:26 AM
I think it's close. I think Williams will always be statisically better in his system than Tuck in ours. We fire zone, meaning we ask more of our DEs than they do of Williams. Tuck is playing LE, RE, and UT, and when we fire zone, Tuck is getting Curl to flat on those plays. So his versatility is what I would value more. But people who look at stats will always see Williams ahead.

When we firezone Tuck can't get a sack, not to mention, we rotate ALL our ends to keep them fresh, so he will be on the sideline alot as well too. We basically are going to use Kiwi, Tuck, Wynn, McDougal and Tollefson. When Osi comes back add him to the list of guys coming in and out. The fact we are talking about Tuck and Williams is a great thing. One is the first overall pick and the other is a 3rd rounder...

Personally I like Tuck better because of the value and versatility he brings. Not to mention he is getting these stats in a system where we have other guys rotating with him, and in a system where he has to cover in space as well when we firezone.

let's look at the flipside of this spectrum though to be fair: who does Mario have to help him out?

Mario is generating a pass rush all by himself. Can you imagine him on our dline? He'd be an absolute monster.

terribletowel39
11-04-2008, 11:28 AM
Big Country can hold his own against lesser humans, but not Lamar Woodley.
fixed it for you.

i was hoping you would give me a name. and not just big country.

Giantsfan1080
11-04-2008, 11:31 AM
let's look at the flipside of this spectrum though to be fair: who does Mario have to help him out?

Mario is generating a pass rush all by himself. Can you imagine him on our dline? He'd be an absolute monster.

He's got Okoye to help him out.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 11:32 AM
let's look at the flipside of this spectrum though to be fair: who does Mario have to help him out?

Mario is generating a pass rush all by himself. Can you imagine him on our dline? He'd be an absolute monster.

Yeah but can he play inside and drop into coverage and not look stupid.. I remember Strahan dropping into coverage and it looked pathetic. I rememeber specifically the Rams game when he did that and just looked like a fish out of water.

I don't want Mario, because of his contract. Why pay that much for a first overall pick when you can get equal production from a later round guy. In fact Kiwi is only first rounder.. Strahan, Osi, and Tuck are all 2nd and 3rd round guys.


The question is does Williams fit our system? Can he play inside and then be good in coverage if need be? Can he put the same stats up being rotated in and out. You bring up a good point that he is their only guy, so do the Texans leave him in there all game long? We will never do that with our DEs so thus they can never lead in stats.

Same with our Rbs, specifically Jacobs. He only has 131 carries so far, and still manages to be 5th in yards. Imagine if he had the same amount of carries as Michael Turner or Portis? Those guys already have 170 to 200 carries already. No wonder they are leading in yards.

It's hard to compare guys on our team because everything is truly a team based system, from rotating DEs to rotating RBs. Only guys that stay in are the OL. That's why if your going to vote anyone to the pro bowl I'd vote the whole OL in there.

619
11-04-2008, 11:32 AM
He's got Okoye to help him out.

Not really. He's yet to get a sack this season. BBD is right.

Giantsfan1080
11-04-2008, 11:35 AM
Not really. He's yet to get a sack this season. BBD is right.

He's a DT. If he is doing his job it doesn't mean he's going to add up sack numbers. I don't get to watch the Texans ever but I assume he's taking a good amount of blocking away from Williams and onto himself.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 11:38 AM
Not really. He's yet to get a sack this season. BBD is right.

Sacks isn't the only stat for a DT. It depends on the system he is in and what his role is. Do the Texans have their Dts "squeeze" or not? If the system is based on squeezing the OL then the Lbs are the key, which would make sense because Ryans is a beast and thier OL is having a good year statistically.

Normally you have two systems going on and some mix them up. Is it a squeeze and spill defensive system or is it a scrape and gap responsibility one? The Vikings have the Dts to run both hence the ability to stop the run and still get sacks. Very sick system if you have the proper DTs.

bigbluedefense
11-04-2008, 11:38 AM
He's a DT. If he is doing his job it doesn't mean he's going to add up sack numbers. I don't get to watch the Texans ever but I assume he's taking a good amount of blocking away from Williams and onto himself.

the problem is Okeye is having a terrible year. he has hit the sophomore slump. he hasn't done anything this year.

Yeah but can he play inside and drop into coverage and not look stupid.. I remember Strahan dropping into coverage and it looked pathetic. I rememeber specifically the Rams game when he did that and just looked like a fish out of water.

I don't want Mario, because of his contract. Why pay that much for a first overall pick when you can get equal production from a later round guy. In fact Kiwi is only first rounder.. Strahan, Osi, and Tuck are all 2nd and 3rd round guys.


The question is does Williams fit our system? Can he play inside and then be good in coverage if need be? Can he put the same stats up being rotated in and out. You bring up a good point that he is their only guy, so do the Texans leave him in there all game long? We will never do that with our DEs so thus they can never lead in stats.

Same with our Rbs, specifically Jacobs. He only has 131 carries so far, and still manages to be 5th in yards. Imagine if he had the same amount of carries as Michael Turner or Portis? Those guys already have 170 to 200 carries already. No wonder they are leading in yards.

It's hard to compare guys on our team because everything is truly a team based system, from rotating DEs to rotating RBs. Only guys that stay in are the OL. That's why if your going to vote anyone to the pro bowl I'd vote the whole OL in there.

yes yes yes, yes yes and yes. Mario is a freak. he could do anything we would ask him to do. the only thing is that contract, but we're not talking contracts. we're talking strictly player vs player.

Mario would fit our system fine. trust me.

Sniper
11-04-2008, 11:38 AM
So Sniper, how's every Michigan player in the NFL doin?

Lamarr Woodley sucks, btw...

:D

Laugh now. You won't be laughing when LaMarr Woodley rips Kerry Collins' face right off.

Let's see...

Charles Woodson is locking ************ down. LaMarr Woodley is pwning the universe. Mike Hart was averaging 9 yptouch before he went down! :D Tom Brady decided to take this season off to be nice to the rest of the league. Braylon Edwards decides when he catches the ball, not the other way around. Sometimes, the ball is not worthy of touching the greatness that is Braylon Edwards. Steve Hutchinson is going to another Pro Bowl, I'm sure.

Need I go on?

bored of education
11-04-2008, 11:40 AM
I am not a UofM fan but Woodley is an ultrabeast

619
11-04-2008, 11:41 AM
He's a DT. If he is doing his job it doesn't mean he's going to add up sack numbers. I don't get to watch the Texans ever but I assume he's taking a good amount of blocking away from Williams and onto himself.

Maybe. But he's a UT who has been known to be great at rushing the passer in the past. Sackless as opposed to 5.5 sacks last season just doesn't cut it. That whole Texans D as a unit isn't all that great to be honest despite a few good pieces ( Williams, Ryans, Diles ) .

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 11:45 AM
the problem is Okeye is having a terrible year. he has hit the sophomore slump. he hasn't done anything this year.



yes yes yes, yes yes and yes. Mario is a freak. he could do anything we would ask him to do. the only thing is that contract, but we're not talking contracts. we're talking strictly player vs player.

Mario would fit our system fine. trust me.

I'd need to see that to believe it, but I believe you. I don't have time to waste time watching other games because I am busy breaking down ours.

If he is that good then good, but still doesn't address the other issue of the constant rotation for our DEs, and the fact that our system still is different than their system, thus Tuck should never, in theory have better stats than Williams, if both guys stay healthy. The key factors will always be scheme and opportunities which is the constant rotation of our DEs. That alone is the limiting factor which will hurt Tuck's production. The fact that Tuck is doing what he is doing with these factors present is a reflection on his talent to still be in the discussion.

Jughead10
11-04-2008, 11:50 AM
Unless John Abraham has made a complete 180 and learned how to play the run in his 8th year in the league, I can't put him in the top 5 despite his sack total this year. He has also spent half his career injured, he is soft. Always an amazing talent, but soft.

The thing with Tuck is that he plays probably 35% or more of his snaps at DT. And gets equal pressure up the middle as he does when he plays end.

CashmoneyDrew
11-04-2008, 12:24 PM
fixed it for you.

i was hoping you would give me a name. and not just big country.

David Stewart.

terribletowel39
11-04-2008, 12:27 PM
David Stewart.
never heard of him = ownage.

CashmoneyDrew
11-04-2008, 12:29 PM
never heard of him = ownage.

He's an o-lineman. That's why you've never heard of him. ;)
One of the meanest dudes on our team. probably a top 6-8 RT in the league. He's nasty.

Turtlepower
11-04-2008, 12:36 PM
It is looking more and more like Greg Hardy is falling on draft boards. How sick would it be if the Giants were able to pick up Hardy? I will seriously have a smile on my face form April until Training Camp.

terribletowel39
11-04-2008, 12:41 PM
He's an o-lineman. That's why you've never heard of him. ;)
One of the meanest dudes on our team. probably a top 6-8 RT in the league. He's nasty.
Should be a good match up. Nasty on nasty. I still think Woodley will beat him. And Kerry Collins still might die.

Sniper
11-04-2008, 12:43 PM
Should be a good match up. Nasty on nasty. I still think Woodley will beat him. And Kerry Collins still might die.

Might implies there is a chance LaMarr Woodley will fail. You and I both know LaMarr Woodley doesn't fail.

Burns336
11-04-2008, 12:50 PM
At the beginning of this year I said Tuck would be a beast on an elite level. I Said I would easily take Tuck over Kampman, Allen, and pretty much anyone not named Mario Williams.

and I got raped for it.

Absolutely raped.

Packer fans and even some other Cowboy fans told me I was an idiot. "Tuck isn't even the best on his team" blah blah blah

Now Tuck is #1

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 12:56 PM
At the beginning of this year I said Tuck would be a beast on an elite level. I Said I would easily take Tuck over Kampman, Allen, and pretty much anyone not named Mario Williams.

and I got raped for it.

Absolutely raped.

Packer fans and even some other Cowboy fans told me I was an idiot. "Tuck isn't even the best on his team" blah blah blah

Now Tuck is #1

Tuck impressed people the time we played SD in SD, and he ran down LT from behind, lol. I think some Chargers fans can vouche or remember that. That's when Giants fans thought he was special. At first I was like who the hell is that? Then saw it was Tuck and was like wow, thats some motor on him to stay with the play and run down LT. The thing this organization always did well was bargain hunt.

We don't have first round pro bowlers or stars. Our guys are all 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer, Osi, Tuck, Jacobs, Snee, David D., Webster, and so on are all guys that aren't first rounders.

Rayray52
11-04-2008, 01:00 PM
Whats happened to Dwight Freeney he was never an elite DE in the Strahan mold because he was mediocore against the run but he was an elite pass rusher. The last 3 years hes just fallen off the map and the Colts are still paying him franchise money.

Burns336
11-04-2008, 01:04 PM
Tuck impressed people the time we played SD in SD, and he ran down LT from behind, lol. I think some Chargers fans can vouche or remember that. That's when Giants fans thought he was special. At first I was like who the hell is that? Then saw it was Tuck and was like wow, thats some motor on him to stay with the play and run down LT. The thing this organization always did well was bargain hunt.

We don't have first round pro bowlers or stars. Our guys are all 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer, Osi, Tuck, Jacobs, Snee, David D., Webster, and so on are all guys that aren't first rounders.

I was sold on his ability to be the best in the league last year. His size and physique combined with his speed is pretty much unmatched.

His performance in the superbowl (where he should have been MVP) just solidified what I thought I already knew.

Now he's just proving it every game.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 01:08 PM
I was sold on his ability to be the best in the league last year. His size and physique combined with his speed is pretty much unmatched.

His performance in the superbowl (where he should have been MVP) just solidified what I thought I already knew.

Now he's just proving it every game.

Yeah another guy who is showing great athletic ability is Kiwi. Kiwi before that draft and the year before was considered the best DE prospect even better than Mario Williams. Kiwi got hurt, and then got owned by D'brick in the senior bowl, and his stock crashed. But he had a good rookie season, and now is getting comfortable back at DE.

Kiwi has 6 sacks and 2.5 less than Tuck. As the season goes on, I expect Kiwi to get better now that he is adjusting to being back at DE. If Kiwi can progress to his potential to why we drafted him, we can have two very sick DEs with Robbins in the middle there with already 5.5 sacks.

Thigamahjigee
11-04-2008, 01:12 PM
Yeah you about Osi, but that's typical stat watching. Why do you think our DL is soo effective?? It's because we cycle guys in and out all the time. It's not like we leave Osi or Strahan out there for the whole game and they get shutout. What happens is we cycle them in and out, when your in if you don't get a sack, you move on for the next guy, which would be Tuck or Tollefson.



Guess what team does the exact same thing? The Atlanta Falcons with the best defensive line coach in football (Ray Hamilton) have implemented the same strategy, so you can make the same argument for Abraham. Not to mention, the number of double and triple teams Abraham sees due to the lack of production from his counter-parts.

And Jughead, you'd be surprised, but Abraham has actually become a pretty good run defender. I never thought he was terrible, but he was below average when he came here. I saw him get to about average last season. Now I'm not sure if he feels fresher and actually goes all out on runs now too, but he's been very strong in the run game as well. I'm sure Raiders fans will tell you that, as the station kept showing clips from the game of Abe not only being a sack machine, but a force in the run game.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 01:20 PM
Guess what team does the exact same thing? The Atlanta Falcons with the best defensive line coach in football (Ray Hamilton) have implemented the same strategy, so you can make the same argument for Abraham. Not to mention, the number of double and triple teams Abraham sees due to the lack of production from his counter-parts.

And Jughead, you'd be surprised, but Abraham has actually become a pretty good run defender. I never thought he was terrible, but he was below average when he came here. I saw him get to about average last season. Now I'm not sure if he feels fresher and actually goes all out on runs now too, but he's been very strong in the run game as well. I'm sure Raiders fans will tell you that, as the station kept showing clips from the game of Abe not only being a sack machine, but a force in the run game.

Well I am going by our system because I know our system as opposed to another team's system. So if that's the case then fine, but I am not sure about the double team and triple teams.

As a coach I find fans throw those terms around way too much. Remember there are only 5 offensive linemen so if one guy has 3 guys on him, then that's a problem. Again I would have to see film on that and then I can tell you what the protection is. Are you talking running or passing play?

I am guessing passing.. If that's the case what's the protection and how many step drop is the qb taking? Is it a 3 man slide protection, 4 man slide protection, Full line slide protection? Is it BOB on the otherside then? What are the backs doing? So it's not quite as simple as that as you can see.

One thing that people miss is that ALL teams have different protections in terms of OL. So that explains why DEs can go for a couple games without sacks. It has nothing to do with consistency but more to do with the gameplan and protections being called by the offense.

But again my point had to with our system compared to others. Perhaps teams copy us, I don;t know because I don't have the NFL ticket. All I know is my team's system, which I would say my forte being the offense, since I coach that side of the ball. I normally fast forward through the defense when I break down film to get back to our offense.

Dirk360
11-04-2008, 01:24 PM
Bros,

1. tuck
2. mario
3. kevin williams
4. allen
5. kampman
6. freeney
7. osi

terribletowel39
11-04-2008, 01:47 PM
umm...Bro.
Kevin Williams is DT. However beastly he maybe, he is a DT.

Toneloc498
11-04-2008, 01:53 PM
Tuck impressed people the time we played SD in SD, and he ran down LT from behind, lol. I think some Chargers fans can vouche or remember that. That's when Giants fans thought he was special. At first I was like who the hell is that? Then saw it was Tuck and was like wow, thats some motor on him to stay with the play and run down LT. The thing this organization always did well was bargain hunt.

We don't have first round pro bowlers or stars. Our guys are all 2nd rounders and 3rd rounders. Tiki, Strahan, Toomer, Osi, Tuck, Jacobs, Snee, David D., Webster, and so on are all guys that aren't first rounders.

Thats the play when I knew Tuck would become a good player, Tomlinson (dont like to call him LT cause theres only one LT) was 10 yards ahead of Tuck in a full sprint when Tuck came chasing him down from behind to tackle him. Tomlinson said in the press conference that when he turned around he was at least 10 yards back then he looked back again and Tuck was on his ass running like the Terminator. He said something to the effect that he hopes all ND players are not that fast, and he has to check Notre Dames players 40 times.

Thigamahjigee
11-04-2008, 01:55 PM
Well I am going by our system because I know our system as opposed to another team's system. So if that's the case then fine, but I am not sure about the double team and triple teams.

As a coach I find fans throw those terms around way too much. Remember there are only 5 offensive linemen so if one guy has 3 guys on him, then that's a problem. Again I would have to see film on that and then I can tell you what the protection is. Are you talking running or passing play?

I am guessing passing.. If that's the case what's the protection and how many step drop is the qb taking? Is it a 3 man slide protection, 4 man slide protection, Full line slide protection? Is it BOB on the otherside then? What are the backs doing? So it's not quite as simple as that as you can see.

One thing that people miss is that ALL teams have different protections in terms of OL. So that explains why DEs can go for a couple games without sacks. It has nothing to do with consistency but more to do with the gameplan and protections being called by the offense.

But again my point had to with our system compared to others. Perhaps teams copy us, I don;t know because I don't have the NFL ticket. All I know is my team's system, which I would say my forte being the offense, since I coach that side of the ball. I normally fast forward through the defense when I break down film to get back to our offense.



I know what you are talking about. I don't mean triple teams as in 3 guys stand and block him. More like 2 block, and a chip waiting in the wings if he gets by. The thing is, we aren't a blitzing team. We rely on getting pressure with the front four. So, we've got RE Abraham NT Moorehead UT Babineaux LE Anderson to get pressure. Moorehead isn't doing much of anything. Babineaux is a good pocket pusher, but far from a bigtime pass rusher. Anderson up until the past few weeks has been terrible at getting pressure. So when you are rushing 4 guys and one of them is an elite threat with the others not doing another to scare you, the OL can spare a blocker for a double, and have a chip waiting in the wings. Now I'm not saying this happens every play, but it happens enough to the point where you take notice. Watching the tape, I noticed that for most of the 2nd and 3rd quarter (Abe barely played the 4th), the Raiders relied heavily on a pure double team on Abraham with a tackle and Zach Miller. John's going to thrive in one on one spots, because he can use his outstanding speed and quickness to blow by OT, or he can bring out his moves. Now I'm not calling Abraham the best DE (although this year I would), but he really is a beast.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 02:09 PM
I know what you are talking about. I don't mean triple teams as in 3 guys stand and block him. More like 2 block, and a chip waiting in the wings if he gets by. The thing is, we aren't a blitzing team. We rely on getting pressure with the front four. So, we've got RE Abraham NT Moorehead UT Babineaux LE Anderson to get pressure. Moorehead isn't doing much of anything. Babineaux is a good pocket pusher, but far from a bigtime pass rusher. Anderson up until the past few weeks has been terrible at getting pressure. So when you are rushing 4 guys and one of them is an elite threat with the others not doing another to scare you, the OL can spare a blocker for a double, and have a chip waiting in the wings. Now I'm not saying this happens every play, but it happens enough to the point where you take notice. Watching the tape, I noticed that for most of the 2nd and 3rd quarter (Abe barely played the 4th), the Raiders relied heavily on a pure double team on Abraham with a tackle and Zach Miller. John's going to thrive in one on one spots, because he can use his outstanding speed and quickness to blow by OT, or he can bring out his moves. Now I'm not calling Abraham the best DE (although this year I would), but he really is a beast.


I hear what you're saying. I am just saying that people toss those things out double and triple teams when in reality it's ALOT more complicated. It's all based on the protection called, and if the guard or center has a duel read or not. If someone is blitzing then who picks him up, the OL or the RB in the backfield. It gets very complicated, which is why there is such a different in production of DEs.

I agree JA is a beast, but his problem is he can't stay healthy. I live in NJ, and remember him from his Jets days. He is a sick player but his health is a big question mark.

If they did keep a TE in tow then I would guess and say they ran a 6 man protection at that point, and had their back check -release and chip on JA to help out. It's a good way of helping out, but then it hurts your offense because it's 1 less skill player who can make a play.

captainjack27
11-04-2008, 02:17 PM
3-4
1. Luis Castillo
2. Richard Seymour
3. Haloti Ngata

I'd put Aaron Smith Second over richard Seymour

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 02:25 PM
iloxygenil makes good points, but because he's a Falcons fan, he's automatically a homer. Jeez...

John Abraham is having an absolutely outstanding year. No one can argue against that. The only 4-3 DE close to him sack-wise is Tuck, who is trailing by 1.5 sacks. Super Mario is trailing by 2 sacks.

Abraham is having a monster season, so who's to argue that he's not playing like the best DE in the NFL? He may not be the best for the long term, but that point is not strong enough to discredit Abe's performance in this current season and validate guys who may be deemed as more likely to keep up their production.

And yes, Mario Williams is over rated by many posters. He's in the conversation, but saying he's the undisputed #1 DE is a stretch.
He got 3 sacks of the Lions and the Raiders and 2 of the Chiefs. I saw him a couple of times one on one against St.Clair and couldnt beat him

Thigamahjigee
11-04-2008, 02:36 PM
I hear what you're saying. I am just saying that people toss those things out double and triple teams when in reality it's ALOT more complicated. It's all based on the protection called, and if the guard or center has a duel read or not. If someone is blitzing then who picks him up, the OL or the RB in the backfield. It gets very complicated, which is why there is such a different in production of DEs.

I agree JA is a beast, but his problem is he can't stay healthy. I live in NJ, and remember him from his Jets days. He is a sick player but his health is a big question mark.

If they did keep a TE in tow then I would guess and say they ran a 6 man protection at that point, and had their back check -release and chip on JA to help out. It's a good way of helping out, but then it hurts your offense because it's 1 less skill player who can make a play.


Believe me man, I got you on the whole blocking scheme. It's pretty interesting actually when you look back at the tape, and see how much goes in the OL and how different teams can make something that seems as simple as blocking.


I'm buying it because of 24 straight games started for Abraham, but if you remember a lot of his problems were groin and hammy injuries. The story has it, he was really pissed after getting what he wanted then getting hurt again in '06. In the offseason, he got a trainer to work specifically on core training to make sure he'd be able to hold up. He also added about 5-10 pounds onto his playing weight. And like I said, 24 straight now.

Thigamahjigee
11-04-2008, 02:39 PM
He got 3 sacks of the Lions and the Raiders and 2 of the Chiefs. I saw him a couple of times one on one against St.Clair and couldnt beat him


Your point? He got a sack off Chad Clifton, and has a big sack/FF against the Bucs. He's provided a good amount of pressure every game. Let's not make it sound like he's sucked unless he plays bad teams. He has sacks in 5 of 8 games, and one of those games he went sackless, he blocked a punt.

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 02:45 PM
Your point? He got a sack off Chad Clifton, and has a big sack/FF against the Bucs. He's provided a good amount of pressure every game. Let's not make it sound like he's sucked unless he plays bad teams. He has sacks in 5 of 8 games, and one of those games he went sackless, he blocked a punt.
i never said he sucked. But to say he is the best cause of the amounts of sacks? Thats where i say wait.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 02:46 PM
Believe me man, I got you on the whole blocking scheme. It's pretty interesting actually when you look back at the tape, and see how much goes in the OL and how different teams can make something that seems as simple as blocking.


I'm buying it because of 24 straight games started for Abraham, but if you remember a lot of his problems were groin and hammy injuries. The story has it, he was really pissed after getting what he wanted then getting hurt again in '06. In the offseason, he got a trainer to work specifically on core training to make sure he'd be able to hold up. He also added about 5-10 pounds onto his playing weight. And like I said, 24 straight now.

Yeah conditioning and keeping your body in shape is huge. Sometimes the trainer's and the strength and conditioning guys are to blame, which is why at the college level it's competitive. You have to show your stuff to the coach and AD and basically sell it. But he has been producing very well and staying healthy. The reason why people under rate him is because of his past history of getting hurt.

To me out of everything, OL play and protections is the hardest thing to learn. So much is involved in learning what goes on. There is a reason why the offensive's playbook is so thick. Not because there are tons of plays, but because each play, passing or running has 2-4 pages of how to block it up depending on various fronts. So one running play can have 2-4 pages on it. You have to draw up how to block an 4-3 Even front, 4-3 Over, 4-3 Under, 4-3 Wide, 4-3 under wide, and so on.. Now do that for 3-4 defenses, and perhaps bear and Cub defensive fronts, which usually get added twice because you can use those formations out of a 4-3 defense or a 3-4 defense.

Learning the playbook for the OL is truly a pain in the butt. That's why you see such a different at all levels in terms of OL play. Yeah the talent is different from team to team, but the OL coach has to be good with his drills and rep the stuff that can mimic real game play. Also, has to be able to in game adjust, which is a VERY hard thing to do.

Sniper
11-04-2008, 02:50 PM
Yeah conditioning and keeping your body in shape is huge. Sometimes the trainer's and the strength and conditioning guys are to blame, which is why at the college level it's competitive. You have to show your stuff to the coach and AD and basically sell it. But he has been producing very well and staying healthy. The reason why people under rate him is because of his past history of getting hurt.


Stop with the apostrophes in plural words! You don't use apostrophes to pluralize nouns!

Thigamahjigee
11-04-2008, 02:50 PM
Yeah conditioning and keeping your body in shape is huge. Sometimes the trainer's and the strength and conditioning guys are to blame, which is why at the college level it's competitive. You have to show your stuff to the coach and AD and basically sell it. But he has been producing very well and staying healthy. The reason why people under rate him is because of his past history of getting hurt.

To me out of everything, OL play and protections is the hardest thing to learn. So much is involved in learning what goes on. There is a reason why the offensive's playbook is so thick. Not because there are tons of plays, but because each play, passing or running has 2-4 pages of how to block it up depending on various fronts. So one running play can have 2-4 pages on it. You have to draw up how to block an 4-3 Even front, 4-3 Over, 4-3 Under, 4-3 Wide, 4-3 under wide, and so on.. Now do that for 3-4 defenses, and perhaps bear and Cub defensive fronts, which usually get added twice because you can use those formations out of a 4-3 defense or a 3-4 defense.

Learning the playbook for the OL is truly a pain in the butt. That's why you see such a different at all levels in terms of OL play. Yeah the talent is different from team to team, but the OL coach has to be good with his drills and rep the stuff that can mimic real game play. Also, has to be able to in game adjust, which is a VERY hard thing to do.


Definitely. I remember a big reason the Falcons loved Justin Blalock was because he had a Wonderlic of like 41. They actually wanted to trade up to get him, but got lucky enough for him to fall.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 02:57 PM
Stop with the apostrophes in plural words! You don't use apostrophes to pluralize nouns!

I know, I know. I type so fast that if i screw up I don't have the patience to re-read my stuff. I did that in school back in the day too. That's why I would give my 10 page papers to friends like yourself to read and correct. I sucked at it and didn't have the patience to do it. I hated the grammar part of English class. At that point it is nitpicking, as long as people get the general idea of the post that's what matters.

Sniper
11-04-2008, 02:59 PM
I know, I know. I type so fast that if i screw up I don't have the patience to re-read my stuff. I did that in school back in the day too. That's why I would give my 10 page papers to friends like yourself to read and correct. I sucked at it and didn't have the patience to do it. I hated the grammar part of English class. At that point it is nitpicking, as long as people get the general idea of the post that's what matters.

Yes, I know. I'm just a grammar nazi.

For example, the title of this thread drives me up a ******* wall.

awfullyquiet
11-04-2008, 03:11 PM
Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 03:14 PM
Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?
Because the falcons are that great?

BlindSite
11-04-2008, 03:39 PM
Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 03:43 PM
Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.
Well obviously the Falcons are beastly at any major Offensive position, top5 for QB, RB, LT and WR. Cowboys and Giants are just awesome everywhere

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.

Because we are talking about elite to great players. That's pretty much every thread on here.. Top DEs, top OL, top this and that. So obviously we will be there. If people start horrible franchises or race for the # 1 pick, then you won't see the names of us, cowboys, falcons and so on.

MetSox17
11-04-2008, 03:47 PM
Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?

Because some of the biggest Giants and Falcons homers reside here in the NFL Forum.

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 03:49 PM
Because we are talking about elite to great players. That's pretty much every thread on here.. Top DEs, top OL, top this and that. So obviously we will be there. If people start horrible franchises or race for the # 1 pick, then you won't see the names of us, cowboys, falcons and so on.
Fact is though, u hardly see Titans fans or other fans in these threads that much. It always ends up to one of the three.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 03:59 PM
Fact is though, u hardly see Titans fans or other fans in these threads that much. It always ends up to one of the three.

Well how many Titans fans are on here compared to the other teams? We have active members for the giants in BBD, Jug, and Number 10. I am on here too, but I mod our giants.com MB, so I am usually there.

I know personally I just defend our team vs people who usually don't know that much about our team and say things that aren't true. Otherwise I think those top 10 rankings and stuff are fluff threads. I would rather talk about the Xs and Os of football rather than stat throwing which is pretty much this section. It's news and stat throwing back and forth.

The Titans just got good, if they keep it up and are constant next year I don't care if they talk about their players. You win, and show consistency then I am all for fans talking up their players. Now if the Lions fans come on and talk about their players in the rankings threads then I would say something.

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 04:01 PM
open an Os and Xs one. I really want to learn more about it :( its so hard to get any material here. I always enjoy the Playbook section on NFL.com :P

Turtlepower
11-04-2008, 04:01 PM
Why is this thread suddenly about the giants and falcons again?

Because Justin Tuck and John Abraham are 2 of the best DEs in the league this year. There actually is a reason for this thread.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-04-2008, 04:07 PM
open an Os and Xs one. I really want to learn more about it :( its so hard to get any material here. I always enjoy the Playbook section on NFL.com :P

Actually I got to be mod of the scout.com giants section, and the head mod liked my breakdowns and so made me mod, and first thing I did was open another section.

Go to our giants forum on this site, and see my game breakdowns. I been doing that since last year. If it was up to me I would have another Xs and Os section where stat throwing is not allowed. No general talk, everything would be specific from coverage beaters, fronts, drills, protection, how to scout teams, do film breakdown, and so on and so forth. If Scott opened another section up, I'd live there all day, and get to post different playbooks from teams and so on and discuss it.

Gay Ork Wang
11-04-2008, 04:23 PM
Plssss do it :D

Thigamahjigee
11-04-2008, 04:29 PM
Because every thread about who is the best at what position turns into either a homerfest between Giants and Cowboys, or Giants and Falcons.


I've been lurking here for about two weeks or so, and your the last person to be calling anyone a homer bud.

Jughead10
11-04-2008, 04:36 PM
Because some of the biggest Giants and Falcons homers reside here in the NFL Forum.

Maybe because this thread is about DEs. It is a pretty widely accepted fact that the Giants have the best crop of DEs in the league. They led the league in sacks last year. And they are doing it again this year with their only pro bowler from last year hurt all season who was a DE, and with a HOF DE retiring.

Have Giant fans ever seriously entered a discussion about best secondary?

iloxygenil
11-04-2008, 05:21 PM
And maybe because John Abraham leads all defensive ends in the NFL in sacks...hrmm...do you ever think? Doesn't appear so.

MetSox17
11-04-2008, 05:39 PM
Maybe because this thread is about DEs. It is a pretty widely accepted fact that the Giants have the best crop of DEs in the league. They led the league in sacks last year. And they are doing it again this year with their only pro bowler from last year hurt all season who was a DE, and with a HOF DE retiring.

Have Giant fans ever seriously entered a discussion about best secondary?

Hey, i'm not pointing anyone out in particular. If the shoe fits, wear it ;)

Jughead10
11-04-2008, 05:42 PM
And maybe because John Abraham leads all defensive ends in the NFL in sacks...hrmm...do you ever think? Doesn't appear so.

My only problem with Abraham is that he has done this before, only to get hurt and continue to not play the run at all. But you say he is playing the run now, I'll have to pay attention. Smith is the type of coach who could ride him all day on that aspect of his game. His injuries have also been questionable in this past. There is difference between being injured and playing hurt. Any little thing has kept Abraham out in the past, many have questioned his heart.

d34ng3l021
11-04-2008, 05:49 PM
My only problem with Abraham is that he has done this before, only to get hurt and continue to not play the run at all. But you say he is playing the run now, I'll have to pay attention. Smith is the type of coach who could ride him all day on that aspect of his game. His injuries have also been questionable in this past. There is difference between being injured and playing hurt. Any little thing has kept Abraham out in the past, many have questioned his heart.

He is playing pretty possessed right now. I dont like to bring in sack numbers, but he has been getting consistent pressure and has blown up some running plays while not getting overpowered in the run game.

The fact that he has 10 sacks is nice, but he got 8 of them against DET, KC, and OAK. Whatever though. He brings tons of pressure and thats what matters.

Number 10
11-04-2008, 06:18 PM
I don't think Abraham enters the discussion as the best overall defensive end, not even close. You could argue he is one of the best pass rushers but possesses or not, he is not good against the run. Guys like Williams, Kampman, Vandenbosch...those guys put immense pressure on the QB like Abe but dominate the ground game to their side as well. Abe falls into the 5-7 range for me because of that.

Thigamahjigee
11-04-2008, 06:38 PM
I don't think Abraham enters the discussion as the best overall defensive end, not even close. You could argue he is one of the best pass rushers but possesses or not, he is not good against the run. Guys like Williams, Kampman, Vandenbosch...those guys put immense pressure on the QB like Abe but dominate the ground game to their side as well. Abe falls into the 5-7 range for me because of that.


Vanden Bosch isn't really close to Abraham as far as pass rushing goes.

iloxygenil
11-04-2008, 06:50 PM
You guys are all blind if you don't think that Abe plays the run, you listen to the media and cannot think for yourself. He's done a fantastic job in the run game, even drawing double teams in the run game. When you leave 1 man on Abe, he beats them and causes pressures, hurries, QB hits, and TFL. If you don't think that Abe is a complete DE then it's a waste of time trying to show you because you obviously haven't watched him play.

Number 10
11-04-2008, 07:13 PM
You guys are all blind if you don't think that Abe plays the run, you listen to the media and cannot think for yourself. He's done a fantastic job in the run game, even drawing double teams in the run game. When you leave 1 man on Abe, he beats them and causes pressures, hurries, QB hits, and TFL. If you don't think that Abe is a complete DE then it's a waste of time trying to show you because you obviously haven't watched him play.

I've seen plenty of Atlanta football since his tenure began there and my opinion on his game has nothing to do with the national media. If anything, the national media supports Abe the way you do.

He is not Dwight Freeney-esque against the run but compare how he plays it to Williams, Tuck, Kampman, Vandenbosch....it just isn't close.

marks01234
11-05-2008, 11:22 AM
I think it's close. I think Williams will always be statisically better in his system than Tuck in ours. We fire zone, meaning we ask more of our DEs than they do of Williams. Tuck is playing LE, RE, and UT, and when we fire zone, Tuck is getting Curl to flat on those plays. So his versatility is what I would value more. But people who look at stats will always see Williams ahead.

When we firezone Tuck can't get a sack, not to mention, we rotate ALL our ends to keep them fresh, so he will be on the sideline alot as well too. We basically are going to use Kiwi, Tuck, Wynn, McDougal and Tollefson. When Osi comes back add him to the list of guys coming in and out. The fact we are talking about Tuck and Williams is a great thing. One is the first overall pick and the other is a 3rd rounder...

Personally I like Tuck better because of the value and versatility he brings. Not to mention he is getting these stats in a system where we have other guys rotating with him, and in a system where he has to cover in space as well when we firezone.

You do realize that Williams lines up at both DE spots, lines up with his hand off the ground and has lined up at tackle on several occasions as well.

Both players are bring a lot of versatility - not sure how one can be better than another based on that.

And Giants fans, I'm sure that Mario was the #1 pick should have anything to do with anything (or his contract). Just like the contributions of Eli Manning should not be compared to Phillip Rivers, Shawn Merriman and Nick Kaeding. Don't worry Tuck will get his money some day.

Sniper
11-05-2008, 11:26 AM
You guys are all blind if you don't think that Abe plays the run, you listen to the media and cannot think for yourself. He's done a fantastic job in the run game, even drawing double teams in the run game. When you leave 1 man on Abe, he beats them and causes pressures, hurries, QB hits, and TFL. If you don't think that Abe is a complete DE then it's a waste of time trying to show you because you obviously haven't watched him play.

And there it is again....

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 11:36 AM
St Clair seemed to protect the QB okay 1vs1 evertime i saw them against Abe

bored of education
11-05-2008, 11:36 AM
And there it is again....

LOL, that guy makes me chuckle.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 11:53 AM
You do realize that Williams lines up at both DE spots, lines up with his hand off the ground and has lined up at tackle on several occasions as well.

Both players are bring a lot of versatility - not sure how one can be better than another based on that.

And Giants fans, I'm sure that Mario was the #1 pick should have anything to do with anything (or his contract). Just like the contributions of Eli Manning should not be compared to Phillip Rivers, Shawn Merriman and Nick Kaeding. Don't worry Tuck will get his money some day.

Well it's cost effective is what I am trying to say. That's my point. We have always bargain hunted when it comes to our players, especially DEs. Strahan, Osi, and Tuck are all 2nd and 3rd rounders. I know he will get his money some day, but we just recently extended Tuck before the superbowl so he is taken care. From a cost benefit perspective I like Tuck, because we are not shelling out # 1 overall pick money for a DE. That's not a knock on Mario, because he can't control it, but it's more of a positive for our scouts and our GM Jerry Reese in finding guys who can do the job throughout the draft.



Justin Tuck signs five-year extension
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/giants/2008/01/19/2008-01-19_justin_tuck_signs_fiveyear_extension-2.html

01/19/08

Tuck, technically a backup player but no less a playmaker, signed a five-year, $30 million extension that includes $16 million in guaranteed money yesterday morning,


Mario Williams
6 year $54 million, Williams is guaranteed $26.5 million.

iloxygenil
11-05-2008, 12:40 PM
And there it is again....

Your argument is so stimulating, I see your point, I love the facts that you bring to the table. Give me a break.

ShutDwn
11-05-2008, 12:50 PM
I don't know about Abraham, of his 10 sacks, 8 of them come from the Lions, Raiders and the Chiefs. Probably the three worst teams in the league.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 12:52 PM
Your argument is so stimulating, I see your point, I love the facts that you bring to the table. Give me a break.
what facts have u brought us?

Turtlepower
11-05-2008, 12:54 PM
what facts have u brought us?

Image google John Abraham.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 01:00 PM
and the fact that we dont agree is dumb. So basically he is right. yay

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 01:21 PM
St Clair seemed to protect the QB okay 1vs1 evertime i saw them against Abe


Then you obviously do not understand the concept of the word pressure. Just because a QB doesn't get sacked, doesn't mean the ends didn't apply pressure. They were quite a few Abe pressures that showed up on film.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 01:34 PM
Then you obviously do not understand the concept of the word pressure. Just because a QB doesn't get sacked, doesn't mean the ends didn't apply pressure. They were quite a few Abe pressures that showed up on film.
yes there were pressures. But everyone we played basically got pressure on us, especially if u think about its John ******* St.Clair. Well now even the Lions got pressure on St. Clair. But if u think about the "best" DE around, especially pass rusher, wouldnt u expect more? he didnt even have a sack against the Bears, and Kyle Orton kinda needs a lot of time sometimes

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 01:41 PM
yes there were pressures. But everyone we played basically got pressure on us, especially if u think about its John ******* St.Clair. Well now even the Lions got pressure on St. Clair. But if u think about the "best" DE around, especially pass rusher, wouldnt u expect more? he didnt even have a sack against the Bears, and Kyle Orton kinda needs a lot of time sometimes



He's been the best DE this year. So far. I'm not calling him the best, and he isn't so far ahead of Mario and Tuck, but he is thus far. Just because he didn't get a sack in that game doesn't present a huge trouble to me, no. You look for consistent pressure on the QB, and have it coming to be more then enough. He's done that this season.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 01:48 PM
well he is not the only one that gets consistent pressure and i dont feel like he is clear cut the best one

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 01:53 PM
well he is not the only one that gets consistent pressure and i dont feel like he is clear cut the best one


He's not. And he isn't. Like I said in my posts, there isn't miles between him and Tuck/Mario this season in all honesty. He has been the best DE this year by whatever amount. I have little doubt about that.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 01:55 PM
I dont think he is clear cut the best one this season either.
I mean all we know about Tuck, we basically learned this season right? So if he is better than Abraham, Tuck has to be Better than Abe this season too

Number 10
11-05-2008, 01:57 PM
He's not. And he isn't. Like I said in my posts, there isn't miles between him and Tuck/Mario this season in all honesty. He has been the best DE this year by whatever amount. I have little doubt about that.

You can say he has been the best pass rusher off the edge, no doubt. But labeling him the best DE this season is a bit strong considering his responsibilities are thin compared to both Tuck and Williams.

In no way am I putting Abe down, he has been dominating from the get go this year. It just might be a simple difference in what we expect from DEs.

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 02:10 PM
You can say he has been the best pass rusher off the edge, no doubt. But labeling him the best DE this season is a bit strong considering his responsibilities are thin compared to both Tuck and Williams.

In no way am I putting Abe down, he has been dominating from the get go this year. It just might be a simple difference in what we expect from DEs.


I suppose it could be contributed to that. If Abraham was playing the run like he did with the Jets, hell even as soon as last season I wouldn't be calling him the best. He's been extremely impressive though, and has turned some heads with his run-stopping ability this year. Although he's still a far better pass-rusher and still gets upfield too quickly on runs.

Sniper
11-05-2008, 02:13 PM
He's not. And he isn't. Like I said in my posts, there isn't miles between him and Tuck/Mario this season in all honesty. He has been the best DE this year by whatever amount. I have little doubt about that.

I have a lot of doubt about it. 8 of his sacks (Detroit x 3, KC x 2, Oakland x 3) have come against awful, awful lines.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 02:18 PM
I have a lot of doubt about it. 8 of his sacks (Detroit x 3, KC x 2, Oakland x 3) have come against awful, awful lines.

That's fine though. If he doesn't get sacks, people will rip him, and when he does get sacks against a poor team, people down play it because the team wasn't talented. Either way he gets screwed, someone will always say something.

Sniper
11-05-2008, 02:19 PM
That's fine though. If he doesn't get sacks, people will rip him, and when he does get sacks against a poor team, people down play it because the team wasn't talented. Either way he gets screwed, someone will always say something.

I'm more questioning where he's been against good teams.

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 02:31 PM
I'm more questioning where he's been against good teams.


Like the Bucs and the Packers where he got a sack in each game + a FF?

Sniper
11-05-2008, 02:36 PM
Like the Bucs and the Packers where he got a sack in each game + a FF?

Carolina? Philly?

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 02:38 PM
I'm more questioning where he's been against good teams.

Again though, sacks don't tell the whole story. Is he getting pressure that is resulting in hurries and poor throws? What about the other team's protection they have installed for the game?

For instance, say I run a vertical stretch offense, so my QB is going to have 5 step and 7 step drops. But... John is a concern, so I want to change things up and go with a short to intermediate routes, and a horizontal stretch, and run concepts like flood and screens. So basically I changing things to a 1, 3, and 5 step drop, with a few 7 step ones because those plays are still our bread and butter for our offense.

Now because I change my plays, my protections change with it. So I run all the coverage beaters for those new plays and that results in ZERO sacks for John. Now to be fair, say I change the offense, but.. we still lose. They took us out of our element, but on the flip side he gets no sacks.

Now the avg fan sees those box score and wonders, wow, this guy sucks, against a good team he did nothing! See what I am getting at??? That stat doesn't explain anything to what went on in the game, and how the team gameplanned.

I see the same nonsense against teams that play us! They run alot of draws, playaction, screens, and slants against us, limiting the Qbs steps on his drops, and thus changing the protection as well. So 1, 3 or even 5 steps, the ball is out of the Qbs hand, so our DEs basically can't make a move because if they do, by the time they get past their man, the ball is gone.

That's just an example, but very under rated that the avg fan probably doesn't even think of.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 02:38 PM
Carolina? Philly?
and Bears :P

Sniper
11-05-2008, 02:42 PM
Again though, sacks don't tell the whole story. Is he getting pressure that is resulting in hurries and poor throws? What about the other team's protection they have installed for the game?

For instance, say I run a vertical stretch offense, so my QB is going to have 5 step and 7 step drops. But... John is a concern, so I want to change things up and go with a short to intermediate routes, and a horizontal stretch, and run concepts like flood and screens. So basically I changing things to a 1, 3, and 5 step drop, with a few 7 step ones because those plays are still our bread and butter for our offense.

Now because I change my plays, my protections change with it. So I run all the coverage beaters for those new plays and that results in ZERO sacks for John. Now to be fair, say I change the offense, but.. we still lose. They took us out of our element, but on the flip side he gets no sacks.

Now the avg fan sees those box score and wonders, wow, this guy sucks, against a good team he did nothing! See what I am getting at??? That stat doesn't explain anything to what went on in the game, and how the team gameplanned.

I see the same nonsense against teams that play us! They run alot of draws, playaction, screens, and slants against us, limiting the Qbs steps on his drops, and thus changing the protection as well. So 1, 3 or even 5 steps, the ball is out of the Qbs hand, so our DEs basically can't make a move because if they do, by the time they get past their man, the ball is gone.

That's just an example, but very under rated that the avg fan probably doesn't even think of.

But I really don't recall him doing anything at all against Philly.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 02:44 PM
But I really don't recall him doing anything at all against Philly.



Would you classify philly a good team or bad team? Do you think they have a good or bad offensive staff?

tjsunstein
11-05-2008, 02:44 PM
Carolina? Philly?

This is a two way street. Where was Mario Williams against Tennessee, Jacksonville, and Detroit?

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 02:49 PM
Carolina? Philly?

Blocked a punt vs Carolina, had a few a couple of hits on McNabb.And SMS said it pretty much perfectly. Just because he didn't have a sack, didn't mean he wasn't a problem. I'm sure you remember McNabb was super inaccurate in the 1st half right? Think 55 had something to possibly do with that?

Sniper
11-05-2008, 02:52 PM
Blocked a punt vs Carolina, had a few a couple of hits on McNabb.And SMS said it pretty much perfectly. Just because he didn't have a sack, didn't mean he wasn't a problem. I'm sure you remember McNabb was super inaccurate in the 1st half right? Think 55 had something to possibly do with that?

Um, no. McNabb has a history of being ridiculously erratic to start games. Did you happen to catch the game vs. the Seahawks?

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 02:53 PM
Um, no. McNabb has a history of being ridiculously erratic to start games. Did you happen to catch the game vs. the Seahawks?


I mean, we can go back and forth with this stuff. Every elite DE isn't going to get a sack every game. It's a matter of how they affect and offense, and disrupt a team.

Sniper
11-05-2008, 02:55 PM
Would you classify philly a good team or bad team? Do you think they have a good or bad offensive staff?

My opinion on Philly varies by the week. I still don't think the Eagles run the ball nearly enough. Too many dumb pass plays called. In general though, they're a pretty decent offensive staff. I guess you can't complain when you have the #5 offense in ppg though.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 03:03 PM
Good offensive staffs are going to protect and adjust for a good DE. They will change their protections accordingly and when they do that the QB's # of steps he drops changes too.

I can have a game where my team would run 1, 3, and 5 step drops all game long, and throw in various screens, and I promise you I won't get sacked at all. Now I know I will lose probably big time, but hey, no sacks is no sacks right? So the opposing DE that's good and their DL can't do anything, but... we lost because the team adjusted to us.

If you want to know what is going on, I suggest taping the game, and if a stud DE gets ZERO sacks, watch the QB. How many steps is he dropping? If it's a quick game, with quick protection, then that will answer alot of questions.


Another application is the this past superbowl. The pats had issues with their protection against our DL. When they ran their various screens they actually had success because we were aggressive. In theory, that's what you're supposed to do against blitzing defense with a good DL. When they did that they were successful, when they had 5 step and 7 step drops, they had issues protecting Brady. Now two things can happen.. Josh McDaniel can swallow his ego and pride, and run stuff that isn't really his system to attack our defense, or stick to his forte, even though it's not working. I think if Wies was the coach he would have adjusted and just screened us to death until we adjusted, and then countered based on that adjustment.

But again, at the NFL level you can shut out guys based on your protections, but something has to give. You may not be as good or effective in doing that because it's not your bread and butter.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 03:05 PM
The Bears offensive coaching staff is good? :O

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 03:06 PM
My opinion on Philly varies by the week. I still don't think the Eagles run the ball nearly enough. Too many dumb pass plays called. In general though, they're a pretty decent offensive staff. I guess you can't complain when you have the #5 offense in ppg though.

OK, so my point is now that because you can classify them as good or not bad to label it that way, you have to figure that staff adjusted somehow to a great DE.

I bet you they do that to us this week. Now the one factor is we have other weapons on defense on our DL. So that might be an issue. But to your credit, you have Westbrook and Jackson so you can move these guys around and run all sorts of quick game concepts to negate our pressure, and still be successful because of that. It really is a chess game and there are many, many explainations to why a DE can get shut out one week, and explode the other week.

Number 10
11-05-2008, 03:33 PM
Sniper....

I'm too lazy to look back if you put a list in this thread. Real quick could you put your top 10 DE list?

iloxygenil
11-05-2008, 03:38 PM
I have a lot of doubt about it. 8 of his sacks (Detroit x 3, KC x 2, Oakland x 3) have come against awful, awful lines.

Osi last year, 7 sacks 1 game, rookie LT. Discount those too then.

Abe wasn't just man on man against poor LT, he was double and triple teamed, don't believe me, look at what he did against Oakland on Sunday...or read Herm Edwards' comments leading into the Falcons game.

The only game so far this season that Abe hasn't gotten pressure at all was against Carolina, the entire team was dominated that game, including Abe, it wasn't pretty.

iowatreat54
11-05-2008, 03:46 PM
Abe really didn't do anything vs. Chicago either...I guess you could say he "got pressure" but it wasn't like it really effected the game, and I don't think he really effect the game much anyways...Orton still passed for 280 and Forte ran for 75 and a TD

awfullyquiet
11-05-2008, 03:46 PM
But I really don't recall him doing anything at all against Philly.

He didn't.

Abe has done spectacular against bad teams, and bad against teams that have the ability to stop someone.

I can tell you why Abe had pressures against the bears. Babineaux. The bears left st. clair on an island (yeah, smart move), but there were no sacks. which means abe, who has x sacks. didn't accomplish what he's good at. which, the pro-abe people are saying, his strength. so. you really shouldn't be counting sacks, and then in games when he got no sacks, say 'but look at the pressures count'. stick to the way you're trying to improve your position.

his strength is in rushing the pass. if you count pressure of his to pressure of someone elses, i would be willing to bet that the more consistent threat on the outside would be tuck or super mario. abe has disappeared every year about this time. he gets off to a fast start, and then peters out.

this year looks to be no different.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 03:52 PM
Osi last year, 7 sacks 1 game, rookie LT. Discount those too then.

Abe wasn't just man on man against poor LT, he was double and triple teamed, don't believe me, look at what he did against Oakland on Sunday...or read Herm Edwards' comments leading into the Falcons game.

The only game so far this season that Abe hasn't gotten pressure at all was against Carolina, the entire team was dominated that game, including Abe, it wasn't pretty.
People do, alot, thats why they knock on him constantly especially last season

iloxygenil
11-05-2008, 03:55 PM
He didn't.

Abe has done spectacular against bad teams, and bad against teams that have the ability to stop someone.

I can tell you why Abe had pressures against the bears. Babineaux. The bears left st. clair on an island (yeah, smart move), but there were no sacks. which means abe, who has x sacks. didn't accomplish what he's good at. which, the pro-abe people are saying, his strength. so. you really shouldn't be counting sacks, and then in games when he got no sacks, say 'but look at the pressures count'. stick to the way you're trying to improve your position.

his strength is in rushing the pass. if you count pressure of his to pressure of someone elses, i would be willing to bet that the more consistent threat on the outside would be tuck or super mario. abe has disappeared every year about this time. he gets off to a fast start, and then peters out.

this year looks to be no different.

Yeah, he really petered out last week with 3 sacks. C'mon give me a break.

The only game where Abe had nothing to do with it was the Carolina game, he was dominated, and they took advantage of our secondary by getting the ball out of his hands in a hurry.

Yes he has dominated mediocre competition, that's where his numbers came from and yes he wasn't a factor in the Carolina game. But in Philly he was getting pressure, but after Jamaal Anderson went down they started focusing all of their attention towards that side and running all over Kroy Biermann. Against Chicago he was causing problems, Forte didn't do anything special against the Falcons, but Orton again got the ball out of his hands quick, but also was forced to by Abe getting around the corner quick.

The way you know that someone is TRULY a force, is when teams are focused on them, they target them in practice and they devise plans to neutralize them. If Abe wasn't an elite pass rusher, and a top tier DE people would ignore him and expect their man to beat him 1 on 1, that's not been happening, but teams with better coaches and better gameplans have slowed him down and prevented him from getting to the QB while he had the ball still. Good for them, doesn't make Abe any less of a player, when coaches revere a guy it means a lot more than what some goofy fans on a messageboard thinks.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Seriously why do u act like we are saying that he is a scrub?

iowatreat54
11-05-2008, 03:59 PM
Abe is a good pass rusher, but do you honestly think the reason Orton did well was because he got rid of the ball quickly because of Abe? I know you watched the game, if Abe was turning the corner so quickly every single time, you would think he would have gotten a sack

fact is, Babs and Anderson had more of an effect on that game than Abe...sure, you can say he was gameplanned against and that's why they did better, but it still doesn't take away from the fact that he really didn't do anything in that game unless you count "getting gameplanned against" as a huge achievement for a player

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 04:03 PM
actually, i only looked at the highlights a bit of the game and even if Orton had a smaller drop on those 2-3 throws theyve shown, u can clearly see St.Clair 1vs1 agaisnt Abe. He wasnt double teamed a lot as far as i can recall.

GB12
11-05-2008, 04:17 PM
The way you know that someone is TRULY a force, is when teams are focused on them, they target them in practice and they devise plans to neutralize them.If Abe wasn't an elite pass rusher, and a top tier DE people would ignore him and expect their man to beat him 1 on 1, that's not been happening, but teams with better coaches and better gameplans have slowed him down and prevented him from getting to the QB while he had the ball still. Good for them, doesn't make Abe any less of a player, when coaches revere a guy it means a lot more than what some goofy fans on a messageboard thinks.
Yes it has. John Abraham is a good DE and very good pass rusher, but he does not require a double team. That whole quoted statement is pretty ridiculous. I'm sure coaches don't focus on him nearly as much as you claim. They don't devise plans to stop John Abraham like you claim, they just do the same thing they do for every pass rusher.

Back to you saying that teams don't "expect their man to beat him 1 on 1", you are dead wrong. All three of his sacks against the Raiders were one on one match ups. Both of his sacks against Kansas City were 1 on 1. His sack against Tampa Bay was 1 on 1. His sack against Green Bay was 1 on 1. At least 1 of his sacks against the Lions was 1 on 1 (not sure about the other two that game, but they probably were too). He is almost exclusively left in a one on one match ups. I don't think we doubled him once all game when we played the Falcons.

awfullyquiet
11-05-2008, 04:24 PM
Good for them, doesn't make Abe any less of a player, when coaches revere a guy it means a lot more than what some goofy fans on a messageboard thinks.

i thought you ignored me.

wow. hella lame.

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 04:34 PM
He didn't.

Abe has done spectacular against bad teams, and bad against teams that have the ability to stop someone.

I can tell you why Abe had pressures against the bears. Babineaux. The bears left st. clair on an island (yeah, smart move), but there were no sacks. which means abe, who has x sacks. didn't accomplish what he's good at. which, the pro-abe people are saying, his strength. so. you really shouldn't be counting sacks, and then in games when he got no sacks, say 'but look at the pressures count'. stick to the way you're trying to improve your position.

his strength is in rushing the pass. if you count pressure of his to pressure of someone elses, i would be willing to bet that the more consistent threat on the outside would be tuck or super mario. abe has disappeared every year about this time. he gets off to a fast start, and then peters out.

this year looks to be no different.


You'd be wrong then on just about everything here then. Abraham leads the league in QB pressures or hurries from a DE, so that's doing what he's good at, and he's accomplishing it better then any other DE.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 04:37 PM
You'd be wrong then on just about everything here then. Abraham leads the league in QB pressures or hurries from a DE, so that's doing what he's good at, and he's accomplishing it better then any other DE.
do you have prove?

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 04:39 PM
Yes it has. John Abraham is a good DE and very good pass rusher, but he does not require a double team. That whole quoted statement is pretty ridiculous. I'm sure coaches don't focus on him nearly as much as you claim. They don't devise plans to stop John Abraham like you claim, they just do the same thing they do for every pass rusher.

Back to you saying that teams don't "expect their man to beat him 1 on 1", you are dead wrong. All three of his sacks against the Raiders were one on one match ups. Both of his sacks against Kansas City were 1 on 1. His sack against Tampa Bay was 1 on 1. His sack against Green Bay was 1 on 1. At least 1 of his sacks against the Lions was 1 on 1 (not sure about the other two that game, but they probably were too). He is almost exclusively left in a one on one match ups. I don't think we doubled him once all game when we played the Falcons.


Gasp! Are you saying that a defensive player is able to capitalize in opportune spots? I'm sure he's the only DL that does that. I've got all the tape. Abraham sees quite a few double teams. Believe it or not, teams can't afford to double someone every single play. If you're looking for evidence, I'd suggest finding the tape instead of looking at the NFL.com highlights. Or just ask Herm Edwards, who told us that he thought he'd be better off sending double and triple teams at Abraham just to stop him. Or find a John Gruden quote every time we play the Bucs.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 04:40 PM
omgz :O more prove!

iowatreat54
11-05-2008, 04:42 PM
Gasp! Are you saying that a defensive player is able to capitalize in opportune spots? I'm sure he's the only DL that does that. I've got all the tape. Abraham sees quite a few double teams. Believe it or not, teams can't afford to double someone every single play. If you're looking for evidence, I'd suggest finding the tape instead of looking at the NFL.com highlights. Or just ask Herm Edwards, who told us that he thought he'd be better off sending double and triple teams at Abraham just to stop him. Or find a John Gruden quote every time we play the Bucs.

are you just Iloxy on a new name? You are saying the exact same things as him, in the exact same tone, and just so happened to start posting in this thread when he logged off...I smell a conspiracy ;)

and *** Ork Wang it's proof, not prove ;)

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 04:42 PM
do you have prove?

Yes I do. It's all on the tape, and other proof in reports that I'm not at liberty to post.

Gay Ork Wang
11-05-2008, 04:43 PM
see i have 10000 tapes at home and 29384 other proof in reports that im not at liberty to post too

awfullyquiet
11-05-2008, 04:44 PM
You'd be wrong then on just about everything here then. Abraham leads the league in QB pressures or hurries from a DE, so that's doing what he's good at, and he's accomplishing it better then any other DE.

Where's the stats on his pressures?

From what i have seen (which is about 30-40% of atlanta's defensive snaps through week 8, mind you i rarely watch games in real time). I mean, i'd put babineaux as more the catalyst to the pressure than Abraham. Babineaux has been performing above par, sucking in two defenders sometimes, forcing blocking schemes to break, especially when abraham is loaded up at over the right tackle... it's a great scheme for him, but as far as who causes the pressure? i wouldn't say overwhelmingly QB's are being pressured from him.

and by the way, the 3 sacks last week, if i've read correctly, were against OAKLAND... Abraham's sack totals have been the greatest against these teams: Detroit. Oakland. Kansas City. Name a tackle on those teams on either side (left or right) that are any good as of today. Kwame Harris? Backus? Albert? They have the most porous offensive lines in the game, and statistically are on par to have more sacks than the rest of the league combined.

GB12
11-05-2008, 04:51 PM
Gasp! Are you saying that a defensive player is able to capitalize in opportune spots? I'm sure he's the only DL that does that. I've got all the tape. Abraham sees quite a few double teams. Believe it or not, teams can't afford to double someone every single play. If you're looking for evidence, I'd suggest finding the tape instead of looking at the NFL.com highlights. Or just ask Herm Edwards, who told us that he thought he'd be better off sending double and triple teams at Abraham just to stop him. Or find a John Gruden quote every time we play the Bucs.
That was good stuff in that post. If you just want to completely ignore it go ahead, but I don't think you'll get many people to agree with you. iloxygenil was suggesting that teams always double him and have extensive gameplanning for him, which is very wrong. If you look at the top 20 DEs in the league Abraham is probably doubled the least.

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 04:53 PM
see i have 10000 tapes at home and 29384 other proof in reports that im not at liberty to post too


Pretty poor attempt at sarcasm. This is apart of my work. You can believe it or not. Quite frankly, I do not care. And to AQ, the stats aren't online or anything like that, mainly is because they are looked at differently from team to team. It's all a matter of how you define a QB pressure, and stats like that. You'll sometimes see coaches state how a player has more tackles then given credit for, etc. It all falls into the same mold. Babineaux has been strong this year, I'd agree. I personally think that you're overrating him though. He's a good pocket pusher. He's got playmaking ability, (one of the top in TFL), but for the most part I'd say Babs benefits from Abe more then vica-versa.

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 04:57 PM
If you look at the top 20 DEs in the league Abraham is probably doubled the least.


I'd disagree with that. He's certainly up there, and I think it's because it's somewhat easy to do seeing that we don't have an emerged pass rush threat at the DL yet, and we don't blitz much. I do think that people like Mario, Allen, Kapman, see more double teams however.

awfullyquiet
11-05-2008, 05:22 PM
Pretty poor attempt at sarcasm. This is apart of my work. You can believe it or not. Quite frankly, I do not care. And to AQ, the stats aren't online or anything like that, mainly is because they are looked at differently from team to team. It's all a matter of how you define a QB pressure, and stats like that. You'll sometimes see coaches state how a player has more tackles then given credit for, etc. It all falls into the same mold. Babineaux has been strong this year, I'd agree. I personally think that you're overrating him though. He's a good pocket pusher. He's got playmaking ability, (one of the top in TFL), but for the most part I'd say Babs benefits from Abe more then vica-versa.

You still haven't, nor anyone, has given me an excuse onto why the great majority of his sacks have come against the most porous of lines.

I smell

http://www.hostessblog.com/wp-content/uploads/uploaded_images/hellonaomi_cupcakes_2.jpg

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 05:42 PM
Osi last year, 7 sacks 1 game, rookie LT. Discount those too then.

Abe wasn't just man on man against poor LT, he was double and triple teamed, don't believe me, look at what he did against Oakland on Sunday...or read Herm Edwards' comments leading into the Falcons game.

The only game so far this season that Abe hasn't gotten pressure at all was against Carolina, the entire team was dominated that game, including Abe, it wasn't pretty.

Like I said if he doesn't get sacks, people whine, and then when he does get sacks against a decent team, people complain some more. Is Osi not allowed to beat up on a rookie LT? He was playing hurt all season basically. He got hurt in the season opener and then after that eagles game and still managed to be the lone pro bowler on the staff.

Discounting stats because the team is poor is really dumb if you think about it. No one should be hating on Abe for that. If anything his lone fault is ability to stay healthy and that's been his MO throughout his career. Other than that he is a sick DE, just never been able to prove it season in and season out because he is always hurt. And because of that he will always get shafted.

GB12
11-05-2008, 06:38 PM
Is Osi not allowed to beat up on a rookie LT? He was playing hurt all season basically. He got hurt in the season opener and then after that eagles game and still managed to be the lone pro bowler on the staff. .
He is allowed to, but he should not go to the pro bowl because of it.

Thigamahjigee
11-05-2008, 06:45 PM
You still haven't, nor anyone, has given me an excuse onto why the great majority of his sacks have come against the most porous of lines.

I smell

http://www.hostessblog.com/wp-content/uploads/uploaded_images/hellonaomi_cupcakes_2.jpg


Actually I have. He takes advantage of opportune situations, which I've stated. You will be hard-pressed to find many players who don't. Should we penalize him 8 games into the season when he has sacks in 5 of the 8 games because the Falcons have gone up against some cupcakes so far? Pretty silly if you ask me.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-05-2008, 09:49 PM
He is allowed to, but he should not go to the pro bowl because of it.

He did have 7 more sacks afterwards too. It's not like he got in to the pro bowl with just 6 sacks in one game. He still had 52 total tackles, 40 solo, and can play both the run and the pass equally well. I am sure he would have more but in our system we rotate guys often, and firezone, so he drops back in coverage too.

awfullyquiet
11-05-2008, 11:07 PM
Actually I have. He takes advantage of opportune situations, which I've stated. You will be hard-pressed to find many players who don't. Should we penalize him 8 games into the season when he has sacks in 5 of the 8 games because the Falcons have gone up against some cupcakes so far? Pretty silly if you ask me.

Quality of opponents?

He's playing offensive lines that wouldn't even make it in the MAC.

giantsfan
11-05-2008, 11:22 PM
Quality of opponents?

He's playing offensive lines that wouldn't even make it in the MAC.

Well UB does have future All-Pro Oline...

awfullyquiet
11-05-2008, 11:37 PM
Well UB does have future All-Pro Oline...

no disrespect to the mac (which is the most fun conference to watch)... they're marginally better than the aformentioned pro teams.

i'd sell my house if i could watch like ball state vs detroit.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 07:44 AM
Quality of opponents?

He's playing offensive lines that wouldn't even make it in the MAC.


Well first off they would. Second off, I forgot John made up the Falcons schedule this year and put himself up against some easier opponents. I guess he's also the only DE in the league that gets to go up against these same players correct?

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 08:47 AM
Pretty poor attempt at sarcasm. This is apart of my work. You can believe it or not. Quite frankly, I do not care. And to AQ, the stats aren't online or anything like that, mainly is because they are looked at differently from team to team. It's all a matter of how you define a QB pressure, and stats like that. You'll sometimes see coaches state how a player has more tackles then given credit for, etc. It all falls into the same mold. Babineaux has been strong this year, I'd agree. I personally think that you're overrating him though. He's a good pocket pusher. He's got playmaking ability, (one of the top in TFL), but for the most part I'd say Babs benefits from Abe more then vica-versa.
Seriously, have u any prove u could like show us? or are u just gonna state it

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 08:55 AM
Seriously, have u any prove u could like show us? or are u just gonna state it


Not really anything. It's just a matter if you believe me or not, which I know most probably do not. As a group, we've got John Abraham as the top DE in pressures thus far with Tuck and Mario a few behind. I'm not going to release the actual papers and stuff, but that's what there is. You could go to another person, and he could have something different because as I stated, pressures isn't really official. It's a matter of watching, and determining what you think a pressure really is. Whether it's a hit on a QB, making him not be able to go through progressions, etc.

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 09:13 AM
so why dont u release it? why?

703SKINS202
11-06-2008, 09:20 AM
I know this is defensive ends but Justin Tuck's hybrid size and speed which allows him to dominate on the pass rush inside or out and his ability to stop the run and cause havoc all along the line makes him the best de/overall d-lineman in the league so far this year. His motor is ridiculous it's amazing what the guy can do especially with Uminenyora and Strahan out, he plays 120% on every snap it seems. A lot has to go to Spags too and the way he has legitimized that defense in the past couple years without top talent to be one of the leagues best.

giantsfan
11-06-2008, 09:27 AM
I know this is defensive ends but Justin Tuck's hybrid size and speed which allows him to dominate on the pass rush inside or out and his ability to stop the run and cause havoc all along the line makes him the best de/overall d-lineman in the league so far this year. His motor is ridiculous it's amazing what the guy can do especially with Uminenyora and Strahan out, he plays 120% on every snap it seems. A lot has to go to Spags too and the way he has legitimized that defense in the past couple years without top talent to be one of the leagues best.

I really love how spags takes advantage of our depth by rotating guys keeping them fresh and using his guys in different ways, it'll really be a shame if he leaves for a HC job.

703SKINS202
11-06-2008, 09:28 AM
I really love how spags takes advantage of our depth by rotating guys keeping them fresh and using his guys in different ways, it'll really be a shame if he leaves for a HC job.

I think that Minnesota should go after him hard, I'd be surprised if he doesn't take a job after this season.

giantsfan
11-06-2008, 09:31 AM
I think that Minnesota should go after him hard, I'd be surprised if he doesn't take a job after this season.

yeah, me to :( I'm actually hoping we repeat this season, not because it's so important that we win another title but because I want coughlin to retire so we can promote spags to keep him with the team.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 09:55 AM
so why dont u release it? why?



My employer doesn't release it for whatever reason they have, so as an employee I wouldn't feel comfortable releasing it.

giantsfan
11-06-2008, 10:05 AM
My employer doesn't release it for whatever reason they have, so as an employee I wouldn't feel comfortable releasing it.

dude that's not cool, demand that they return your balls to you immediately.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 10:08 AM
dude that's not cool, demand that they return your balls to you immediately.


Wouldn't want to loose my job for anything.

giantsfan
11-06-2008, 10:10 AM
Wouldn't want to loose my job for anything.

Do you have to sit down when you pee?

Sniper
11-06-2008, 10:15 AM
Wouldn't want to loose my job for anything.

You'll never loose your job. You may lose your job, but it's impossible to loose a job.

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 10:15 AM
its just awesome when someone comes on here, states something, and then tries to back it up with another statement and then wants to convince others with that

CroomDawgs
11-06-2008, 10:21 AM
My list (10 4-3 and 5 3-4 Ends)

4-3
1. Mario Williams
2. Justin Tuck
3. Jared Allen
4. Osi Umenyiora (I knwo he's hurt but he's still def. a top 5 end)
5. Patrick Kearney
6. Julius Peppers
7. Trent Cole
8. Kyle VanDen Bosch
9. John Abraham
10. Aaron Kampman

3-4
1. Haloti Ngata
2. Luis Castillo
3. Aaron Smith
4. Ty Warren
5. Richard Seymour

awfullyquiet
11-06-2008, 10:37 AM
Well first off they would. Second off, I forgot John made up the Falcons schedule this year and put himself up against some easier opponents. I guess he's also the only DE in the league that gets to go up against these same players correct?

The lions have been sacked 27 times, or 3 sacks per game (abe had 3). The Chiefs have been sacked 23 times, or 2.5 sacks per game (abe had 2). The Raiders have been sacked 22 times. or 2.5 times a game (abe had 3). Average NFL team's sacks allowed? 1.2 sacks per game?


I bet if atlanta played the patriots... abe would have a field day too. they've allowed 29 sacks on the year!

Anyway. do you understand the concept of the math? Abe beats up on the teams everyone already beats up on. If he's scoring the same number of sacks against the same teams that everyone is scoring the same number of sacks against...

If you want to get better data... Wait a few weeks after carolina rakes detroit or tampa plays oakland... you'll see what common opponents do to those teams... and what gaines adams and peppers will do to such weak lines... if you want proof. there will be your proof.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 05:49 PM
its just awesome when someone comes on here, states something, and then tries to back it up with another statement and then wants to convince others with that


Yeah. It's awesome. I could just say he leads the NFL in sacks for a DE, and be done with it, but I actually tried to show something else from what I've seen. Sorry.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 05:51 PM
The lions have been sacked 27 times, or 3 sacks per game (abe had 3). The Chiefs have been sacked 23 times, or 2.5 sacks per game (abe had 2). The Raiders have been sacked 22 times. or 2.5 times a game (abe had 3). Average NFL team's sacks allowed? 1.2 sacks per game?


I bet if atlanta played the patriots... abe would have a field day too. they've allowed 29 sacks on the year!

Anyway. do you understand the concept of the math? Abe beats up on the teams everyone already beats up on. If he's scoring the same number of sacks against the same teams that everyone is scoring the same number of sacks against...

If you want to get better data... Wait a few weeks after carolina rakes detroit or tampa plays oakland... you'll see what common opponents do to those teams... and what gaines adams and peppers will do to such weak lines... if you want proof. there will be your proof.


I'll wait. I'm not going to blame Abraham for the fact that the Falcons have played teams with poor OLs and he's taken advantage. If Gaines Adams and Peppers have more sacks at the end of the year, which appears to be the tell-all to most of you here, I'll talk then.

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 06:07 PM
Yeah. It's awesome. I could just say he leads the NFL in sacks for a DE, and be done with it, but I actually tried to show something else from what I've seen. Sorry.
well it wouldve brought the same results: absolutely nothing

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 06:21 PM
well it wouldve brought the same results: absolutely nothing


Exactly, so what magical thing are you looking for?

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 06:22 PM
Exactly, so what magical thing are you looking for?
An argument based on prove

Number 10
11-06-2008, 06:25 PM
Guys give it up already.

One of you think Abraham is top notch, the other doesn't. One forms his opinion on numbers, the other forms it by watching football. Neither of you are gonna get anywhere with this.

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 06:27 PM
i think he is top notch. not the best

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 06:30 PM
An argument based on prove


And I've never said he's the best. He's been the best this year, half a season, yes. But the proof is in his sack totals. Once again, it's not his fault based on how the schedulers came up with what they did. Maybe if he gets 2-3 more sacks the rest of the season, fine, I'll agree. But I'm not going to fault the guy for taking advantage of what's been presented when he's also done it against teams like the Bucs and Packers.

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 06:32 PM
not the best this season, sry

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 06:32 PM
The lions have been sacked 27 times, or 3 sacks per game (abe had 3). The Chiefs have been sacked 23 times, or 2.5 sacks per game (abe had 2). The Raiders have been sacked 22 times. or 2.5 times a game (abe had 3). Average NFL team's sacks allowed? 1.2 sacks per game?


I bet if atlanta played the patriots... abe would have a field day too. they've allowed 29 sacks on the year!

Anyway. do you understand the concept of the math? Abe beats up on the teams everyone already beats up on. If he's scoring the same number of sacks against the same teams that everyone is scoring the same number of sacks against...



So now I'm looking at this again, and I think I do understand the math. Basically what you are presenting is that Abraham has outsacked entire teams that have gone up against the Raiders, Lions, and almost the same as the Chiefs? Interesting.

Number 10
11-06-2008, 06:33 PM
So now I'm looking at this again, and I think I do understand the math. Basically what you are presenting is that Abraham has outsacked entire teams that have gone up against the Raiders, Lions, and almost the same as the Chiefs? Interesting.

I actually thought the same things when I looked at that. Not sure what the point of that post was.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 06:33 PM
not the best this season, sry


And look at all the proof you bring to the table as well!

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 06:43 PM
Looking at the games, or even the highlights, u can see him 1vs1 a lot of times. Just look at the highlights of the Bears Atlanta game, u see him clearly 1vs1 on St.Clair, he brought some pressure, yes, but every good DE should against him. He is on a lot, and i mean alot of 1vs1 situations everytime u watch any highlights of him/the Falcons.

Number 10
11-06-2008, 06:43 PM
You can't honestly base your opinion of a player on highlights.

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 06:45 PM
thats why i also mentioned the bears/falcons game. I just mean all those plays on those highlights on NFL.com alone show u no double team at all, alot on the DT. I just watched The bears/packers/Tampa bay highlights

Number 10
11-06-2008, 06:47 PM
If all you're watching is highlights...I'm sorry but your opinion of him means nothing.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 06:49 PM
Looking at the games, or even the highlights, u can see him 1vs1 a lot of times. Just look at the highlights of the Bears Atlanta game, u see him clearly 1vs1 on St.Clair, he brought some pressure, yes, but every good DE should against him. He is on a lot, and i mean alot of 1vs1 situations everytime u watch any highlights of him/the Falcons.


You are watching highlights and you see him take advantage on 1 on 1 situations. Fans, and someone who watches the film like myself tells you that he's effective enough to bring pressure and attract double teams, and has been an strong run defender... what else do you want from him? The only possible thing I could see is that he doesn't play EVERY snap, but is from from a 3rd down only guy, and generally plays all the time in tight games.

Gay Ork Wang
11-06-2008, 06:52 PM
You are watching highlights and you see him take advantage on 1 on 1 situations. Fans, and someone who watches the film like myself tells you that he's effective enough to bring pressure and attract double teams, and has been an strong run defender... what else do you want from him? The only possible thing I could see is that he doesn't play EVERY snap, but is from from a 3rd down only guy, and generally plays all the time in tight games.
no, i watch the highlights of the game, and all those passing attempts by the opposing team, scoring, for yards, or interceptions, u only see him 1vs1.

Im not basing my opinion of him of highlights. I saw the Bears vs Falcons game. I also saw the game against the eagles. All i am saying is that u hardly see him double teamed, just like a lot of other guys already stated

Number 10
11-06-2008, 06:54 PM
no, i watch the highlights of the game, and all those passing attempts by the opposing team, scoring, for yards, or interceptions, u only see him 1vs1.

Im not basing my opinion of him of highlights. I saw the Bears vs Falcons game. I also saw the game against the eagles. All i am saying is that u hardly see him double teamed, just like a lot of other guys already stated

I watched the Eagles game too...and he was chip blocked all day.

Thigamahjigee
11-06-2008, 06:56 PM
I watched the Eagles game too...and he was chip blocked all day.

That. Plus if you watched it, you would have heard the announcer even talking about what a tough time he was giving Thomas around the edge. That's one game in which I was thinking WTF, because he wasn't on the field enough IMO.

Thigamahjigee
11-11-2008, 06:55 PM
Surprised this thread didn't get bumped back up. Speaking of surprises, I got one on Sunday. John Abraham had 9 quaterback hurries to go along with a sack. But wait? I thought that Abraham only beats up on teams with poor OT's or QB's who don't get rid of the ball quickly? It was pretty surprising to watch unfold.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 08:50 AM
Surprised this thread didn't get bumped back up. Speaking of surprises, I got one on Sunday. John Abraham had 9 quaterback hurries to go along with a sack. But wait? I thought that Abraham only beats up on teams with poor OT's or QB's who don't get rid of the ball quickly? It was pretty surprising to watch unfold.
again, any official prove for the hurries?

I still believe Abraham is a top5 DE this season, jsut to say he is the best of the bestest is foolish

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 01:58 PM
again, any official prove for the hurries?

I still believe Abraham is a top5 DE this season, jsut to say he is the best of the bestest is foolish


Not on me, but it's very easy to find or confirm. Anyone who watched the game on FOX would tell you that they posted a stat at towards end of the game which said something to the effect of 8 QB hurries, 3 QB hits, 1 sack.


How exactly is it foolish to call someone with the most sacks and hurries the best again?

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 02:06 PM
he played guys that are basically garbage and got a lot of sacks. Look at what Julius Peppers did to Kwame.
I just fail to see how anyone could be clearcut #1

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 02:17 PM
he played guys that are basically garbage and got a lot of sacks. Look at what Julius Peppers did to Kwame.
I just fail to see how anyone could be clearcut #1


I was unaware that Chad Clifton and Jamaal Brown now qualify as garbage. Just about any QB other then Brees and Abraham had another sack or 2 easy.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 02:44 PM
clifton is garbage at least this year, the packers are in the top half for sacks allowed. yes Jamaal Brown is good. thats why Abraham is a TOP5 DE. Its like no one ever beat Jamaal Brown and gotten a sack off of it

P.S.: A higher power told me that ur mom dresses u funny

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 02:48 PM
clifton is garbage at least this year, the packers are in the top half for sacks allowed. yes Jamaal Brown is good. thats why Abraham is a TOP5 DE. Its like no one ever beat Jamaal Brown and gotten a sack off of it


Clifton has not been garbage. And are we really going to discredit a sack because the OT's been beaten before? I think we can throw out about every sack in the NFL this year then. Abraham manhandled Brown all game, and along with it took any threat of Shockey out of the game. And I wouldn't have cared one bit if Abraham didn't get a sack. He got pressure just about the entire game, and that's what counts for a DE.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 02:50 PM
yes and thats why he is a ******* Top 5 DE. Why does this warrant the best of the best of the ******* best?

Seriously ask any Packer fan, they gonna tell u how good Clifton and Tauscher have been

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 02:52 PM
yes and thats why he is a ******* Top 5 DE. Why does this warrant the best of the best of the ******* best?

Seriously ask any Packer fan, they gonna tell u how good Clifton and Tauscher have been


Maybe this warrants talking about him being the best, since this is a top defensive end in the NFL thread. I've seen Clifton and Tauscher play for my ownself. They've been far from garbage.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 02:54 PM
Because he had one great game?

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 02:56 PM
Because he had one great game?

One great game? I don't know how much longer I can hold this conversation. You are complaining about him only having good games against subpar tackles, and now with 11 sacks thus far he's only had one great game?

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 02:58 PM
One great game? I don't know how much longer I can hold this conversation. You are complaining about him only having good games against subpar tackles, and now with 11 sacks thus far he's only had one great game?
i thought we are talking about the games besides KC, DET and OAK

he has been hardly anything special in the bears game as well as the Phillie Game just like the Panthers game

Dr. Gonzo
11-12-2008, 03:05 PM
Clifton played fairly well in his first couple games but has been absolute **** since. To argue otherwise is blatant homerism, whether it be for the Packers or for the team who is getting sacks against him. Renji is right, every Packer fan will agree he has played terribly. Also, I have no clue what your argument is against Renji. Abraham is a top 5 DE this year, not the best.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 03:08 PM
u need to change ur avatar

awfullyquiet
11-12-2008, 03:10 PM
Maybe this warrants talking about him being the best, since this is a top defensive end in the NFL thread. I've seen Clifton and Tauscher play for my ownself. They've been far from garbage.

are you kidding me?

Look at the statistics surrounding clifton and tauscher... They haven't been doing anywhere near the job they've done individually for the past few years this year as far as run support and sacks allowed with an even more mobile quarterback...

I'll agree with you they're far from garbage, but this year, they're barely making mediocre this year. You need to quit making love to abrahams sausage, pronto. I don't think it's PG-13 anymore.

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 03:17 PM
i thought we are talking about the games besides KC, DET and OAK

he has been hardly anything special in the bears game as well as the Phillie Game just like the Panthers game



He was good in the CHI game, had Tra Thomas' number for most of the Eagle game (you could find that out by just listening to the announcers that game and watching the little 1 on 1's they showed) and wasn't much against the Panthers besides the blocked punt. Graded out very well against TB and NO as well.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 03:19 PM
He was good against St.Clair. That is average in my book

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 03:23 PM
are you kidding me?

Look at the statistics surrounding clifton and tauscher... They haven't been doing anywhere near the job they've done individually for the past few years this year as far as run support and sacks allowed with an even more mobile quarterback...

I'll agree with you they're far from garbage, but this year, they're barely making mediocre this year. You need to quit making love to abrahams sausage, pronto. I don't think it's PG-13 anymore.


Could you please point out to me where I said Clifton's been as good as he's been in the past? The claim that he's been garbage was laughable at best though. And the mobile QB arguement? Should I show you Michael Vick's sack numbers? Just because a QB can escape pressure on a poor block doesn't mean his sacks allowed should automatically go down.


And perhaps I'm happy to see a guy who's been riddled with injuries his entire career do very well? Howie Long said it best. The only thing that's ever been able to stop John Abraham is injuries.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 03:23 PM
Exaggeration much? saying he is garbage basically means that a Top5 DE is supposed to abuse him, so its tells us what? exactly, nothing

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 03:28 PM
Clifton played fairly well in his first couple games but has been absolute **** since. To argue otherwise is blatant homerism, whether it be for the Packers or for the team who is getting sacks against him. Renji is right, every Packer fan will agree he has played terribly. Also, I have no clue what your argument is against Renji. Abraham is a top 5 DE this year, not the best.


He's been playing lately is absolute ****? I'd definately disagree, but that obviously isn't going anywhere it seems. So I'll just chalk that one up against Abe too. He made the schedule too easy early on and he's also accountable for Packers fans thinking Clifton is terrible. Got it.


And my arguement is that he's the best DE in football this year. Don't see how the guy who has the most sacks and pressures isn't, but okay.

awfullyquiet
11-12-2008, 03:33 PM
Could you please point out to me where I said Clifton's been as good as he's been in the past? The claim that he's been garbage was laughable at best though. And the mobile QB arguement? Should I show you Michael Vick's sack numbers? Just because a QB can escape pressure on a poor block doesn't mean his sacks allowed should automatically go down.


And perhaps I'm happy to see a guy who's been riddled with injuries his entire career do very well? Howie Long said it best. The only thing that's ever been able to stop John Abraham is injuries.

Michael Vick was an Option Quarterback. He doesn't deserve mention in this thread for that reason, and if you think the two are related. Go watch more college fooball yo! A mobile qb is NOT a run first qb like vick. I'm assuming you don't watch too many packers games to know such things though.

Perhaps you are happy for the guy. That's great. I'm happy he's not been injured too. But he's still on the bottom end of top shelf talent.

I cannot seem to drill into your head that once this season is said and done, the raiders, lions, and kc who account for a great majority of abe's sacks will have given up nearly as many sacks to every other team they've faced. that the teams that abraham gets sacks from. everyone else gets tons from them too. He's running up the score (or patrioting) on weak competition and for that. He's not the top five in my book yet based on his sack totals. No way.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 03:35 PM
He's been playing lately is absolute ****? I'd definately disagree, but that obviously isn't going anywhere it seems. So I'll just chalk that one up against Abe too. He made the schedule too easy early on and he's also accountable for Packers fans thinking Clifton is terrible. Got it.


And my arguement is that he's the best DE in football this year. Don't see how the guy who has the most sacks and pressures isn't, but okay.
Who the **** is saying its Abrahams fault? no one. but u cant say, hey he didnt make the schedule so he definitely is the best.

besides, that is not an argument. that is a statement. ur arguement is look at the stats. we have sacks, and we said why those dont make him the best. We have no ******* pressure numbers anywhere

awfullyquiet
11-12-2008, 03:36 PM
And my arguement is that he's the best DE in football this year. Don't see how the guy who has the most sacks and pressures isn't, but okay.

Easy. He racks up sacks vs bad teams. Pressures is a team-counted stat (i could say he had 19 pressures all year. I'd be right.) and is a subjective statistic, therefore i tend to NOT count it)...

So, when you go look at the gamefilm as the ultimate decider. Games against decent tackles on either side. He disappears. Do i need to list the games he's 'disappeared' against?

How does that make him the best DE in the NFL?

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 06:46 PM
Michael Vick was an Option Quarterback. He doesn't deserve mention in this thread for that reason, and if you think the two are related. Go watch more college fooball yo! A mobile qb is NOT a run first qb like vick. I'm assuming you don't watch too many packers games to know such things though.

Perhaps you are happy for the guy. That's great. I'm happy he's not been injured too. But he's still on the bottom end of top shelf talent.

I cannot seem to drill into your head that once this season is said and done, the raiders, lions, and kc who account for a great majority of abe's sacks will have given up nearly as many sacks to every other team they've faced. that the teams that abraham gets sacks from. everyone else gets tons from them too. He's running up the score (or patrioting) on weak competition and for that. He's not the top five in my book yet based on his sack totals. No way.


Vick was a mobile QB. Are you seriously going to debate that? His first option wasn't run at all, but that is seperate completely, and quite frankly, a debate I do not want to get into.

Abraham isn't on the bottom shelf of top talent. You won't find anyone who could seriously say that. And you have drilled it into my head. You posted a stat that showed Abraham was outsacking entire teams. That's not going to hold much water. And he's running up the score? You mean how he didn't play in the 4th quarter of the Raiders game even though he was abusing Harris on every play? I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but other teams get to play the Lions/Chiefs/Raiders too. Since the opinion is that Chad Clifton sucks now, we are probably going to just have to shut out this entire year for Jared Allen.

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 06:49 PM
Easy. He racks up sacks vs bad teams. Pressures is a team-counted stat (i could say he had 19 pressures all year. I'd be right.) and is a subjective statistic, therefore i tend to NOT count it)...

So, when you go look at the gamefilm as the ultimate decider. Games against decent tackles on either side. He disappears. Do i need to list the games he's 'disappeared' against?

How does that make him the best DE in the NFL?


Go ahead. I'd be happy to hear how you say he's disappeared when just about anyone in the scouting world puts Abraham right near the top when it comes to pass rushing. Not to mention, just about everyone has him at the top of pressures too. But I'll buy into that it's subjective, because it is... even though this is a pretty widely held thing. I think Howie said it best this past Sunday. The only thing that's ever been able to stop John Abraham is injuries.

Thigamahjigee
11-12-2008, 06:50 PM
Who the **** is saying its Abrahams fault? no one. but u cant say, hey he didnt make the schedule so he definitely is the best.

besides, that is not an argument. that is a statement. ur arguement is look at the stats. we have sacks, and we said why those dont make him the best. We have no ******* pressure numbers anywhere


No one is saying it's his fault. You are directly taking away from his on-field play because of who he's played however, which is essentially the same thing.

BlindSite
11-12-2008, 08:38 PM
Abraham has sacks against: Detroit (3), Tampa, Kansas City (2), Greenbay Oakland (3), and New Orleans. None of those teams have tackles that will be in the probowl this year and the Majority of his sacks, have come against extremely poor opponents. Abraham is doing all he can at the right times and that's fine. To call him the best DE in football with his weakness against the run is downright false.

BamaFalcon59
11-12-2008, 08:54 PM
I wouldn't call Abraham the best defensive end in the league. But he is not bad against the run. He's not Mario Williams, but he's not Simeon Rice or Dwight Freeney either.

The main reason Abraham isn't the top defensive end in the league are his injury concerns. He has everything else.

Xonraider
11-12-2008, 09:42 PM
Hav thei started to use QBs as DEs yet? It wud be such a gr8 idea cuz they'd know wut he wuz thinkin!!!!!!!!1

Mr. Stiller
11-12-2008, 09:50 PM
Would this be a bad time to discredit Mario's Sacks?

2 Against the worst pass blocking team in the league in Pittsburgh?
2 Against Charlie Johnson
2 Against Jake Long
1 Against Levi Jones (Who a lot of Cincy fans are clamoring to replace)
1 Against Bryant McKinnie...

0 Against Ten, Jax, Det, or Baltimore...

Sniper
11-12-2008, 09:56 PM
Would this be a bad time to discredit Mario's Sacks?

2 Against the worst pass blocking team in the league in Pittsburgh?
2 Against Charlie Johnson
2 Against Jake Long
1 Against Levi Jones (Who a lot of Cincy fans are clamoring to replace)
1 Against Bryant McKinnie...

0 Against Ten, Jax, Det, or Baltimore...

What's wrong with Jake Long? I don't get many Dolphins games, but I thought he was doing pretty well.

Were they both on Long? Dammit Jake.

619
11-12-2008, 09:58 PM
Would this be a bad time to discredit Mario's Sacks?

2 Against the worst pass blocking team in the league in Pittsburgh?
2 Against Charlie Johnson
2 Against Jake Long
1 Against Levi Jones (Who a lot of Cincy fans are clamoring to replace)
1 Against Bryant McKinnie...

0 Against Ten, Jax, Det, or Baltimore...

C'mon you could do that for every elite defensive end then. Don't discredit sacks, a sack is a sack nevertheless.

Number 10
11-12-2008, 10:08 PM
If you want to discredit Abraham, focus on his run defense...not his ability to rush the passer. It's silly to see some look down on Abraham for having multiple sacks in a game. It doesn't matter who he is up against. Poor pass blocking lines have done well against good pass rushers before...to look down on a pass rusher for having good games against bad teams is stupid.

Again, Abraham is not the best DE in football in my opinion, but the way some of you are attacking him is silly.

Dr. Gonzo
11-12-2008, 10:56 PM
If you want to discredit Abraham, focus on his run defense...not his ability to rush the passer. It's silly to see some look down on Abraham for having multiple sacks in a game. It doesn't matter who he is up against. Poor pass blocking lines have done well against good pass rushers before...to look down on a pass rusher for having good games against bad teams is stupid.

Again, Abraham is not the best DE in football in my opinion, but the way some of you are attacking him is silly.

I really don't think anyone has attacked Abraham. People have just repeatedly said he is not the best DE in the league. Many of us have even stated that he is probably no lower than top 5. I do not see how that is attacking him. Yet another Falcons homer is acting like we are though so by his responses I can see how something would think people are attacking Abraham.

iloxygenil
11-12-2008, 11:12 PM
I really don't think anyone has attacked Abraham. People have just repeatedly said he is not the best DE in the league. Many of us have even stated that he is probably no lower than top 5. I do not see how that is attacking him. Yet another Falcons homer is acting like we are though so by his responses I can see how something would think people are attacking Abraham.

This is your ignorance, as well as the rest of the people on this messageboard's. No one is saying he's the best in the NFL, this year he is producing the most. Tuck is obviously right up there, but you people who say he can't play the run don't watch him play. Not unbiased anyway. I always thought he sucked against the run and was really worried about it, however, it's just not the case, he's not bad against the run, not at all in fact. He's just extremely impressive against the pass.

Pass rushers, he's top notch, top 3 is the lowest possible ranking for him there, but he's not top 10 against the run. There are too many DEs that are just run stuffers to be considered for that. Then again, all of these DEs who are mentioned aren't the best run stuffers in the league. Justin Tuck is a monster, he was the best DE on that team last year.

John Abraham gets far too much hatred on this messageboard and it's from people like you, and other people who just LOVE to hate on the upstart Falcons. When it comes down to it and the end of the year awards come out, and you start hearing names like John Abraham for defensive MVP (I know, GASP, what a terrible thought) but if a guy can finish the season with 20ish sacks and be a main component on a much maligned unit's turnaround, and if the Falcons end up in the playoffs (not yet a lock by any means) then he's going to get recognition from the people who actually count.

This thread needs to be locked because the fact that people know John Abraham enough to attempt to argue against him just proves he belongs in this thread. People can argue oh no he got 3 sacks in a game! What a terrible thing! Everyone knows sacks come in bunches, whether that means 1 monster game, or a series of 3 games with a sack, who cares, you have to look at what it does in the game itself.

There is one thing that no one anywhere can argue, John Abraham doesn't just sack the QB, he forces fumbles, he's got the best swat move in the league. It's not because he's superior, it's because of his instincts of when to hit the QB to get the ball to pop out. That's not arguable.

Number 10
11-12-2008, 11:16 PM
I just find it funny how wrapped up some of you guys get with your labels.

Abraham is a damn good DE that could start on any team that runs a 4-3, ANY team. All of this top 5, top 3 talk is good for discussion but to take it as serioudly as some of you do is ludicrous. If I had to rank my DEs, Abe probably would not be in the top 5. But to think there is a noticable gap in between him and a guy like Tuck or Williams is silly.

Sniper
11-12-2008, 11:19 PM
I just find it funny how wrapped up some of you guys get with your labels.

Abraham is a damn good DE that could start on any team that runs a 4-3, ANY team. All of this top 5, top 3 talk is good for discussion but to take it as serioudly as some of you do is ludicrous. If I had to rank my DEs, Abe probably would not be in the top 5. But to think there is a noticable gap in between him and a guy like Tuck or Williams is silly.

Tuck was kind of invisible against Philly this past week. Not saying he's not good, I'm just surprised.

Number 10
11-12-2008, 11:26 PM
Tuck was kind of invisible against Philly this past week. Not saying he's not good, I'm just surprised.

He was very quiet, Runyan and Gilles played him well. However it can't be considered a coincidence that Chase Blackburn played the game of his life.