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awfullyquiet
11-10-2008, 05:29 PM
The answer to all your questions of every second/third/first year player is.

No. Not everyone's a bust.

Sometimes, there's extenuating circumstances that most people cannot comprehend because they aren't in the middle of conversations between coaches. They're not in the locker room. Talking heads don't get it sometimes. We don't get it sometimes.

Lets take a quick run down on a list of things that people don't think about when hastily calling people busts.

Are they a bust, Question to ask yourself before opening your mouth.

Number one: Have they gone through massive system changes or coaching changes?

if yes, then you should hesitate to say: hey. things may not be working out so well for them, they've possibly had trouble adjusting to the new system... example would be: like johnathan vilma did when the jets moved from the 4-3 to the 3-4.

if no, proceed to asking yourself question two.

Number two: have they been in a state of limbo as far as supporting cast?

if yes, then you shouldn't be saying: they're a total bust. football more than anything is a team sport. if you have 10 D2 players and one NFL caliber player playing against an NFL team. Let me tell you. That NFL caliber player will look like a below average free agent player in the NFL. For example, did the edge look really good in Arizona those first few years? Ehhhhhhh, no. Did he have peyton manning, reggie wayne, and marvin harrison around him? also no. Supporting casts are just as important in musical theatre as they are in football. No man is an island. Unless he's dick night train lane.

if no. continue to question three.

Number three: was his draft slot in the first round? in the top 15? is it a difficult position? is the learning curve high for the system?

if the answer is yes, you have to remember, there's a learning curve to the system of the nfl. around 30% of players probably won't get it the first time around. most 'bust' quarterbacks finally start figuring out things in the 4th, 5th year of their career. That's when they become the most productive. Sure, not every quarterback will be the second coming of Dan Marino, but, I do think that everyone is so American in thought that they want their quarterbacks, and all of their players, to be producing from day one. And i mean, who can blame them with the contracts that they're commanding from day one. The problem is that most players won't get it the first time. I actually will guarantee that most players won't understand their responsibilities and how to use their physical tools to their advantage within four years. Sure, you can look to Matt Ryan as the exception to the rule, but look at players such as Aaron Rodgers, Matt Schaub, Tony Romo, Kyle Orton... Look at Michael Turner, Albert Haynesworth, Lee Evans, and other players that really start making a name for themselves 3+ years after they enter the league? Coincidence? No way. Patience is the key here, and no one, from GM's to Fans, to Media, no one has any patience. And even less patience with first round picks. Now, here's something. I've heard people called busts here who are first round picks who are performing mediocre. I think that's a little misleading, because to start, you shouldn't be surprised... because your expectations as to what is a translatable skill and statistics to the NFL are probably skewed. So, before you shoot your mouth. Fix that skew. First round picks can behave like fifth round picks, and fifth round picks can behave like first round picks. The only difference is the amount you pay them. So. In order to actually remove yourself and determine HOW they play is to take yourself out of the mindset: this person did what in college? they were drafted where? how much money they make? if you knew none of those things and were asked to evaluate talent based on their game film from the NFL. You wouldn't be able to tell sometimes. Tis the beauty of the NFL draft.

If you answered no the questions, read my final question to ask yourself:

Number four: is the player on the following teams: the detroit lions? the oakland raiders?

if you answered yes. you should be bright enough to understand that. If not. well. We need to talk about some private lessons.

Discuss.

CC.SD
11-10-2008, 05:31 PM
Come on AQ. You know Buster Davis is a bust.

bored of education
11-10-2008, 05:31 PM
My privates need no lessons!

I actually think you brought up some great points aq, I am proud of you!

tjsunstein
11-10-2008, 05:42 PM
Hopefully a certain few will read this. Great post. +rep

Brent
11-10-2008, 05:54 PM
can this be a rule for discussions, here on NFLDC?

Vikes99ej
11-10-2008, 05:56 PM
Troy Williamson still has a chance!

soybean
11-10-2008, 05:57 PM
can this be a rule for discussions, here on NFLDC?

so like... censorship?

iowatreat54
11-10-2008, 06:05 PM
so like... censorship?

yes, of complete stupidity

MetSox17
11-10-2008, 06:06 PM
Troy Williamson still has a chance!

I still have that shred of hope for Bobby Carpenter..

He'll turn it around! :(

M.O.T.H.
11-10-2008, 06:10 PM
I still have that shred of hope for Bobby Carpenter..

He'll turn it around! :(

Delusional! :)

Carp deserves to be branded w/ the BUST label. Awful, awful, awful. I wish we could have a re-draft so, hey we can pick up this decent ST player in the 5th round this time around.

MetSox17
11-10-2008, 06:12 PM
Delusional! :)

Carp deserves to be branded w/ the BUST label. Awful, awful, awful. I wish we could have a re-draft so, hey we can pick up this decent ST player in the 5th round this time around.

Oh, i know i am lol.

Barbie has been awful. And he even teased us with that beastly performance against Seattle two years ago. Oh, the possibilities had we had someone drafting that didn't completely have man-crushes on guys that have some connection to him.

renegade
11-10-2008, 06:16 PM
Nice Work. I like it, it brought up some very valid points and it was timed rather well, with all these "Is ____ ____ a bust?!?!" threads popping up, hopefully this stops those threads.

Xonraider
11-10-2008, 06:16 PM
Nicely put, +rep. Mind if I post this in a Raiders message board so that people shut up already with Jamarcus?

And... you know... not show the Raiders part hehe

A Perfect Score
11-10-2008, 09:41 PM
I love you aq...will you marry me?

BlindSite
11-10-2008, 09:45 PM
Good thread, I got pretty sick of people calling Dwayne Jarrett a bust after one rookie season with David Carr at QB.

Jimmy
11-10-2008, 10:14 PM
And some men just have the knack for sucking...
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1239/1020260064_dfbb9b06a7.jpg?v=0

renegade
11-10-2008, 10:15 PM
Good thread, I got pretty sick of people calling Dwayne Jarrett a bust after one rookie season with David Carr at QB.

What has he done to prove he isn't a bust? he hasn't even shown flashes.

iowatreat54
11-10-2008, 10:21 PM
What has he done to prove he isn't a bust? he hasn't even shown flashes.

Number two: have they been in a state of limbo as far as supporting cast?

David Carr isn't exactly Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, not to mention it's only his 2nd year and he has played only 12 games

do people even bother reading what a thread is about before posting?

renegade
11-10-2008, 10:26 PM
Number two: have they been in a state of limbo as far as supporting cast?

David Carr isn't exactly Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, not to mention it's only his 2nd year and he has played only 12 games

do people even bother reading what a thread is about before posting?

How about this season? He's got Jake Delhomme and has done nothing, he's got Steve Smith, DJ Hackett and Moose all freeing him up and taking attention away and they have a strong running game as well with Stewart and Williams. So by that question he is a bust.

iowatreat54
11-10-2008, 10:30 PM
How about this season? He's got Jake Delhomme and has done nothing, he's got Steve Smith, DJ Hackett and Moose all freeing him up and taking attention away and they have a strong running game as well with Stewart and Williams. So by that question he is a bust.

he's played less than one full season, how is he a bust? He is playing behind 3 receivers better than him, how is he a bust? How many times does the 4th receiver see the field in a typical game and how many 4th receivers do you know that put up big numbers?

renegade
11-10-2008, 10:33 PM
he's played less than one full season, how is he a bust? He is playing behind 3 receivers better than him, how is he a bust? How many times does the 4th receiver see the field in a typical game and how many 4th receivers do you know that put up big numbers?

OK I'm out of BS, you win.

EDIT: Not nice AQ

SMoore
11-10-2008, 10:36 PM
How about this season? He's got Jake Delhomme and has done nothing, he's got Steve Smith, DJ Hackett and Moose all freeing him up and taking attention away and they have a strong running game as well with Stewart and Williams. So by that question he is a bust.

How is he supposed to get the ball if they have 3 WRs ahead of him and a strong running game?

renegade
11-10-2008, 10:38 PM
read post above you

awfullyquiet
11-10-2008, 10:38 PM
Nicely put, +rep. Mind if I post this in a Raiders message board so that people shut up already with Jamarcus?

And... you know... not show the Raiders part hehe

Well. I think the important part IS that it's the raiders... You have some good players, not everyone's a bust. The system is a bust. The commitment to excellence is a bust. The players? Not all of them busts.

What has he done to prove he isn't a bust? he hasn't even shown flashes.

How about this season? He's got Jake Delhomme and has done nothing, he's got Steve Smith, DJ Hackett and Moose all freeing him up and taking attention away and they have a strong running game as well with Stewart and Williams. So by that question he is a bust.

No. He's not. You missed Number three: was his draft slot in the first round? in the top 15? is it a difficult position? is the learning curve high for the system?

Is it a difficult position? Wide Receiver? Yes. Especially for average to above average receivers such as your 'bust' dwayne jarrett. What are the circumstances? Timing. 12 games. Was he better than he was last year? Yes. Are most seniors better than freshman in football? Yes. Is the NFL any different? No. Is everyone a finished product from day one in the NFL? No.

"Look at Michael Turner, Albert Haynesworth, Lee Evans, and other players that really start making a name for themselves 3+ years after they enter the league?"

see this part of it. maybe i need to add a part five here. go see the edit.

edit: no i don't... it's covered in number one:

Number one: Have they gone through massive system changes or coaching changes?

I can say, going from college to the pros... That's a pretty massive system and coaching change. What is it they say? It take 3 years for a coaches influence to wear off in a location? I'd venture to say that it take 3 years to make the transition to the pros, without any coaching changes. Yes there are exceptions to the rule, but, overwhelmingly, i'd give it 3 years.

renegade
11-10-2008, 10:45 PM
DAng people I was just kidding, jeez...

teh internetz = seriuzzz biznezzz!

awfullyquiet
11-10-2008, 10:46 PM
DAng people I was just kidding, jeez...

teh internetz = seriuzzz biznezzz!

Well, let me say, i don't find it funny. Make it obvious. Like picking on Jordyzzzzzzz

BlindSite
11-10-2008, 11:00 PM
Even if you were joking initially, which I doubt, he has shown flashes since DJ Hackett has been out injured. If you knew what you were talking about you would've known that he helped ice the game against Arizona and New Orleans with big catches on third and long.

awfullyquiet
11-10-2008, 11:04 PM
Even if you were joking initially, which I doubt, he has shown flashes since DJ Hackett has been out injured. If you knew what you were talking about you would've known that he helped ice the game against Arizona and New Orleans with big catches on third and long.

Thanks blindsite for watching carolina games.

iowatreat54
11-10-2008, 11:06 PM
DAng people I was just kidding, jeez...

teh internetz = seriuzzz biznezzz!

hahahaha there is no way you were kidding, it was cool that you manned up and said you had no BS left, but you definitely meant everything you said and trying to play it off like you were joking is pretty lame

illmatic74
11-10-2008, 11:39 PM
The reason why so many players are considered busts is the high standard of success expected from high draft picks. You notice this when people call Kerry Collins a dissapointment. He was never the dominant player people thought he would be but his longevity and team success most QBS would envy. It is like in basketball lot of NBA writers and "experts" say thngs like to be an NBA superstar you have to lead your team to multiple championships. Nothing is ever good enough for fans and pundits.

awfullyquiet
11-10-2008, 11:46 PM
The reason why so many players are considered busts is the high standard of success expected from high draft picks. You notice this when people call Kerry Collins a dissapointment. He was never the dominant player people thought he would be but his longevity and team success most QBS would envy. It is like in basketball lot of NBA writers and "experts" say thngs like to be an NBA superstar you have to lead your team to multiple championships. Nothing is ever good enough for fans and pundits.

Exactly. When you look at the draft system, what normally is bet on is their boom-bust factor. If they're not 'booming' they're clearly 'busting'. Which isn't the reality of the matter.

It's why I have such a hard time figuring out WHY coaches who've been around the block for 20, 30 years get all fidgety at media pressure... because lets face it, the media is wrong most of the time... but the talking head news cycle creates fan pressure, and subsequently organizational pressure which didn't occur 10 years ago. face it though, we're wrong most of the time. We are not professionals no matter how much time we spend, because if we were good enough to be professionals, we'd be like toonster.

Hawk
11-10-2008, 11:58 PM
Sticky!!


10char

renegade
11-11-2008, 02:18 AM
hahahaha there is no way you were kidding, it was cool that you manned up and said you had no BS left, but you definitely meant everything you said and trying to play it off like you were joking is pretty lame

I wasn't joking but I definitely wasn't serious, it was a half ass attempt at an argument.

Brent
11-11-2008, 06:44 AM
the talking head news cycle creates fan pressure, and subsequently organizational pressure which didn't occur 10 years ago
Also, back in the day, they would draft someone and never play them until they were ready to get on the field, instead of just throwing them out there to sink or swim... and develop career-ruining habits.

bored of education
11-11-2008, 06:47 AM
Thanks blindsite for watching carolina games.

wait... blindsite is a... Panthers fan...?

21ST
11-11-2008, 06:50 AM
Also, back in the day, they would draft someone and never play them until they were ready to get on the field, instead of just throwing them out there to sink or swim... and develop career-ruining habits.

the thing is if your investing 60+ mill in someone you would like to see results pretty damn quick

Brent
11-11-2008, 09:50 AM
the thing is if your investing 60+ mill in someone you would like to see results pretty damn quick
I dont disagree but this would bring us to the rookie salary cap discussion which has been beaten to death.

awfullyquiet
11-11-2008, 09:50 AM
the thing is if your investing 60+ mill in someone you would like to see results pretty damn quick


That's not the point. You're going to give them 60 mil any way.
That's just impatience. Again, what i believe is a fundamental flaw in the way things are run.

This is where you run into the concept of creating incentive laden contracts with less guaranteed money.

CashmoneyDrew
11-11-2008, 11:01 AM
Chris Johnson has less than half of the TD's LenWhale White has. He's a bust fa sho.

iowatreat54
11-11-2008, 11:24 AM
Chris Johnson has less than half of the TD's LenWhale White has. He's a bust fa sho.

he also had 8 yards this week....BUST

CashmoneyDrew
11-11-2008, 11:25 AM
he also had 8 yards this week....BUST

He busted hard. And yes, that's what she said.

21ST
11-11-2008, 11:33 AM
That's not the point. You're going to give them 60 mil any way.
That's just impatience. Again, what i believe is a fundamental flaw in the way things are run.

This is where you run into the concept of creating incentive laden contracts with less guaranteed money.


everyone is not in a postion where they can afford to be patient

jsa230
11-11-2008, 11:34 AM
I think its official....ahmad carroll = BIG TIME BUST!

21ST
11-11-2008, 11:35 AM
I think its official....ahmad carroll = BIG TIME BUST!

not at all just give him time......

awfullyquiet
11-11-2008, 12:39 PM
everyone is not in a postion where they can afford to be patient

why?

what's going to be the loss? their job? are high impact developmental players worth it? because, i think that's the question you're asking me, when you get down to the root of it all.

let me ask you. is drew brees the guy you'd wait around for? jason campbell? Amobi Okoye? or other Branden Albert? I don't care the size of their contract, and neither should you. I expect from each player, regardless on what their draft order is to live up to the potential i think they have... Maybe not me personally, but, if i was a coaching staff. I can tell you, hey. I got a pretty good player here. Because as soon as you get on the field, it doesn't matter if your the first pick or mr. irrelevant. You're on the field. If you play well, you play well. If not, and you have potential, NO MATTER YOUR DRAFT POSITION, you will be worked on to try to improve. I think this is a lot more important to improve the skills of these players instead of worrying about if they're a bust. Work on their mechanics, their techniques, their footwork...

If you're going to be scouting these players, and you know you got someone good, it shouldn't matter what position they're at, or how much they make. That's a front office decision. Not a playing decision. Sure. You can say they're completely undervalue/overvalue their contract... but... again, that's not a playing issue or a coaching issue. that's a front office issue.

i don't care what their contract is. that should have NOTHING to do if they're a bust or not. a bust is someone who does not perform or improves on a given time scale based on initial translation to the NFL.

some people have the skill to translate to the nfl very easily, some don't. but to say if they have a hard time translating doesn't mean they have talent that isn't translatable. i have a hard time believing some talent reports sometimes because frankly, so much of it depends on the intanglebles these days, there are so many fantastic specimens out there of physical talents... intangables are now the way to go, and modern scouting does a rough job of determining it.

Pb&j
11-11-2008, 12:48 PM
Dare I say... this thread is a bust?

awfullyquiet
11-11-2008, 12:59 PM
that's because owners and fans are #$(*&#$(ing idiots and demand a new coach if the one they just hired isn't winning the super bowl in two seasons.

realistically, i blame the morons who root for these teams more than the media. if anyone actually had an attention span of over 5.3 seconds, they might be able to see the bigger picture (as in, hey, this QB we just drafted isn't going to lead us to the super bowl considering we have the worst defense in NFL history... maybe i shouldn't call for his head just yet).

agreed. again. this is the espn news cycle we deal with on a day to day basis that ruins teams.

iowatreat54
11-11-2008, 01:05 PM
why?

what's going to be the loss? their job? are high impact developmental players worth it? because, i think that's the question you're asking me, when you get down to the root of it all.

let me ask you. is drew brees the guy you'd wait around for? jason campbell? Amobi Okoye? or other Branden Albert? I don't care the size of their contract, and neither should you. I expect from each player, regardless on what their draft order is to live up to the potential i think they have... Maybe not me personally, but, if i was a coaching staff. I can tell you, hey. I got a pretty good player here. Because as soon as you get on the field, it doesn't matter if your the first pick or mr. irrelevant. You're on the field. If you play well, you play well. If not, and you have potential, NO MATTER YOUR DRAFT POSITION, you will be worked on to try to improve. I think this is a lot more important to improve the skills of these players instead of worrying about if they're a bust. Work on their mechanics, their techniques, their footwork...

If you're going to be scouting these players, and you know you got someone good, it shouldn't matter what position they're at, or how much they make. That's a front office decision. Not a playing decision. Sure. You can say they're completely undervalue/overvalue their contract... but... again, that's not a playing issue or a coaching issue. that's a front office issue.

i don't care what their contract is. that should have NOTHING to do if they're a bust or not. a bust is someone who does not perform or improves on a given time scale based on initial translation to the NFL.

some people have the skill to translate to the nfl very easily, some don't. but to say if they have a hard time translating doesn't mean they have talent that isn't translatable. i have a hard time believing some talent reports sometimes because frankly, so much of it depends on the intanglebles these days, there are so many fantastic specimens out there of physical talents... intangables are now the way to go, and modern scouting does a rough job of determining it.

*slow clap for AQ*

you also deserve one for the young actresses/hot chick thread as well

Brent
11-11-2008, 01:17 PM
*slow clap for AQ*
Yes! I use the slow clap a lot. Mainly in my TX History lecture.

awfullyquiet
11-11-2008, 02:05 PM
they have tx history? as a college course?

wow. i shouldn't be shocked.

you know. it was a separate country. like hawaii... only with more assholes.

iowatreat54
11-11-2008, 02:06 PM
they have tx history? as a college course?

wow. i shouldn't be shocked.

yea it's prolly just like US History, or Russian History, or French History

oh wait, Tejas isn't its own country? Coulda fooled me...

Brodeur
11-11-2008, 02:34 PM
they have tx history? as a college course?

wow. i shouldn't be shocked.

Day 1-100: Battle of the Alamo

TaylorMade
11-11-2008, 03:08 PM
This thread needs to be a STICKY. Amazing post!

BlindSite
11-11-2008, 04:52 PM
I think the fact that Drew Brees and Larry Johnson were once labeled as busts says it all.

awfullyquiet
11-11-2008, 04:54 PM
I think the fact that Drew Brees and Larry Johnson were once labeled as busts says it all.

indeed. i always found it amazing that drew brees won the CBPOY, i was like. He wasn't great, he wasn't terrible either.

BlindSite
11-11-2008, 04:59 PM
Damoine Lewis was a bust at one point too and now he's a good starter. Roddy White was being called a bust in Atlanta before last year as well.

Change of system, supporting cast and coaching staff helped both of those go from back ups / busts / hated to being praised.

awfullyquiet
11-11-2008, 05:02 PM
Damoine Lewis was a bust at one point too and now he's a good starter. Roddy White was being called a bust in Atlanta before last year as well.

Change of system, supporting cast and coaching staff helped both of those go from back ups / busts / hated to being praised.

bingo. It's all about the proper utilization of talent.

scottyboy
11-11-2008, 05:04 PM
For example: Corey Webster- not bust. Tim Lewis just should burn in several fires. His zombie should have its eyes gauged out with a spork, while having rabid racoons hurled at him via cannon(or Jay Cutlers arm). His ghost shall than be farted on by Corey Webster, thus making him choke and die. again.

bust: Willy Joseph, Tim Carter, everyone drafted out of WVU


but AQ, the OP was pure gold and sex. like goex? seld? sold? ew no, that one works

BlindSite
11-11-2008, 05:13 PM
For example: Corey Webster- not bust. Tim Lewis just should burn in several fires. His zombie should have its eyes gauged out with a spork, while having rabid racoons hurled at him via cannon(or Jay Cutlers arm). His ghost shall than be farted on by Corey Webster, thus making him choke and die. again.

bust: Willy Joseph, Tim Carter, everyone drafted out of WVU


but AQ, the OP was pure gold and sex. like goex? seld? sold? ew no, that one works

Tim Lewis has been a great secondary coach, he did suck balls as a def coord though.

Addict
11-11-2008, 05:19 PM
yes, of complete stupidity

No way Josť! I spent too many hours talking out of my ass to get this postcount.

(I was being sarcastic, I wouldn't be against at least purging the boards of the really ******** posts. )

49ersfan_87
11-11-2008, 05:32 PM
WR Jason Hill of the 49ers was looking like a bust. 1 catch 12 career games combined from 07-08. Mike Nolan gets fired, Singletary comes in with no aversion to playing youngsters...Hill has 10 catches and 1 TD in the last 2 weeks without Nolan.

Just shows that you need to give some players a little time+faith.

Menardo75
11-11-2008, 05:32 PM
Alex Smith was called a bust then.....oh wait damnit :(

Brent
11-11-2008, 05:39 PM
they have tx history? as a college course?
I dont have a bias towards this state as I am not from it but there is a lot of stuff that has occurred within this state since people came to this area 10000 years ago and that is what we have covered.

you know. it was a separate country. like hawaii... only with more assholes.

Not so much assholes, as power-hungry rancher bosses and oilmen.
for all of like, 12 minutes... i know, i know. i shouldn't be surprised or appalled by anything anyone in Texas does anymore.

10 years, actually.

Day 1-100: Battle of the Alamo
We spent a day on the Alamo (it's vastly overrated) but I could write quite a bit about it, if you would like. The discovery of oil in this state cannot be understated as one of the most important moments in its history.

d34ng3l021
11-11-2008, 05:56 PM
I wonder if the number of players being called busts within their first 3 years actually turn out to be busts or not is statistically significant.

Yeah we may call a guy a bust wrongly, but I am sure we are right a ton of the time.

Menardo75
11-11-2008, 06:04 PM
I wonder if the number of players being called busts within their first 3 years actually turn out to be busts or not is statistically significant.

Yeah we may call a guy a bust wrongly, but I am sure we are right a ton of the time.

A lot of guys are called busts then the system changes or the team. Then all of the sudden they shed the label.

Brent
11-11-2008, 10:46 PM
don't disagree. i'm just entertained. it seems so... texas. that said, CU offers a history of colorado course for correspondence.
I enjoy History courses, they make for interesting electives. I am sure that every state has a History course that covers that state's history. In fact, I have taken more notes in my TX History class than any other class since I have been in college because we have covered so much.

Anyway, to keep this thing on topic: last night, Jaws seriously said about a dozen or more times that Patrick Willis has had less tackles this year as if he had declined in his play. What a joke. Next thing he'll call him a bust. Sorry he's not on the field 40 minutes a game like last year.

Menardo75
11-11-2008, 11:51 PM
I enjoy History courses, they make for interesting electives. I am sure that every state has a History course that covers that state's history. In fact, I have taken more notes in my TX History class than any other class since I have been in college because we have covered so much.

Anyway, to keep this thing on topic: last night, Jaws seriously said about a dozen or more times that Patrick Willis has had less tackles this year as if he had declined in his play. What a joke. Next thing he'll call him a bust. Sorry he's not on the field 40 minutes a game like last year.


If Warner was in the booth Jaws would have been bent over for him.

Brent
11-12-2008, 12:10 AM
If Warner was in the booth Jaws would have been bent over for him.
Yeah, I bought that up in another thread. There was no bias-free commentating there. If someone like Dan Fouts can control their pro-Oregon bias, surely Jaws can... oh wait, watch an MNF Eagles game and he's all up on McNabb, too.

Sorry, I just cannot stand Jaws... "I'd also like to welcome Joe Theismann, watching from his living room with steam coming out of his ears." -Kimmel haha

MetSox17
11-12-2008, 08:36 AM
Yeah, I bought that up in another thread. There was no bias-free commentating there. If someone like Dan Fouts can control their pro-Oregon bias, surely Jaws can... oh wait, watch an MNF Eagles game and he's all up on McNabb, too.

Sorry, I just cannot stand Jaws... "I'd also like to welcome Joe Theismann, watching from his living room with steam coming out of his ears." -Kimmel haha

I too, hate Ron Jaworski with a passion. I hate how he talks to you like if you're two years old.

awfullyquiet
11-12-2008, 02:19 PM
I enjoy History courses, they make for interesting electives. I am sure that every state has a History course that covers that state's history. In fact, I have taken more notes in my TX History class than any other class since I have been in college because we have covered so much.

Anyway, to keep this thing on topic: last night, Jaws seriously said about a dozen or more times that Patrick Willis has had less tackles this year as if he had declined in his play. What a joke. Next thing he'll call him a bust. Sorry he's not on the field 40 minutes a game like last year.

That's one of my biggest beefs.

People are like "they gave up 300 ypg+" last year... They're defense is terrible!
But when you look at their offense, it's like the 3 and out Machine.

I find it hard to believe that people, and by people i mean the media telling people, can say that 'the X's defense is great because the X's offense keeps them off the field' but they can't believe the contrary... I remember when everyone was saying two years ago that the raiders defense was terrible. i reminded them that they have some of the best players on that side of the ball (aso's rookie year, fyi)... they just don't have anyone on the other side who can keep them off the field.

Bengals1690
11-12-2008, 08:34 PM
im a bust. i didnt fit the system :(

Brothgar
11-12-2008, 09:42 PM
I say the three year rule has to be applied when talking busts Otherwise every project pick would be a bust even if they develope into good players down the road. I think there is a basic criteria for busts in the league.

Top 10 pick: Should be a starter right away if they don't it doesn't neciceralyl mean they are busts but it doesn't look good. Should be in the top 25% at his position by the 3rd year and be a eventual pro bowler.

1st round: Should start 50% of games (or take 50% of snaps) if not it is a red flag. If they aren't starting every game and top 50% by year 3 it is a bust.

2nd - 3rd rounds: Player should start all games by year 3.


4th - 5th Round: Should make the team.

6rh - 7th round: No such thing as a bust.

Brent
11-12-2008, 10:07 PM
but they can't believe the contrary
And that was the thing with Willis. Not to take anything away from his abilities but last year he was on the field all game and teams were not game planning against him. This year, the offense is marginally better so he isnt on the field all day and teams are scheming to get guards and centers to block him whereas last year he was free to do damage because they weren't running directly at him and getting lineman on him.

awfullyquiet
11-12-2008, 11:18 PM
And that was the thing with Willis. Not to take anything away from his abilities but last year he was on the field all game and teams were not game planning against him. This year, the offense is marginally better so he isnt on the field all day and teams are scheming to get guards and centers to block him whereas last year he was free to do damage because they weren't running directly at him and getting lineman on him.

eventually, with a talent as good as willis, and hopefully with a competent coach (i know, funny ha,ha), coaching will put pieces in place to allow him to continue what he does.

It's a balance. they game plan against him, you put in pieces to exploit their gameplan. Rarely will you see players be mr. consistancy on the defensive side of the ball.

SenorGato
11-14-2008, 12:28 AM
The reason why so many players are considered busts is the high standard of success expected from high draft picks. You notice this when people call Kerry Collins a dissapointment. He was never the dominant player people thought he would be but his longevity and team success most QBS would envy. It is like in basketball lot of NBA writers and "experts" say thngs like to be an NBA superstar you have to lead your team to multiple championships. Nothing is ever good enough for fans and pundits.

////// thread.

There's great players and there's busts. Thats it. The great players do all the work and carry the other guys on their back. The other guys are busts.

illmatic74
11-14-2008, 12:42 AM
////// thread.

There's great players and there's busts. Thats it. The great players do all the work and carry the other guys on their back. The other guys are busts.No in football it takes 11 players to be succesful. It is not the NBA where one or two great players can carry your team.

BandwagonPunditry
11-14-2008, 08:22 AM
Good post. Too many people want instant success from players, there's nothing wrong with sitting even a first rounder for a year to develop.

awfullyquiet
11-14-2008, 02:30 PM
////// thread.

There's great players and there's busts. Thats it. The great players do all the work and carry the other guys on their back. The other guys are busts.

if everyone was a bust, they'd all be playing as bad as... mandarich did... but then again, look at what mandarich did in his second NFL stint... he played unremarkable, but he was up to par with being an NFL lineman.

bust. yeah. sure. i'll grant you that, he never lived up to being anything great as dictated by his position in the draft, and he failed out of football the first time. that's a bust. the fact that he was able to return to football though shows some tenacity.

but, overall, if you're a bust, you won't make it into a starting lineup. if you were projected to make it to first team, and you don't, you're a bust. if you do and you're severely subpar, but only starting because you're better than the replacement player. and it's been a few years (normally 3-4 years)... with no sign of improvement. you're a bust.

that's why mandarich is called a bust. cedric benson is a bust. someone like Mike Mamula is a bust. by your logic. right now. edge is a bust. because he's not a 'great' player. and i think that's farther from the truth than could be.

Menardo75
11-14-2008, 02:32 PM
I think people don't take into account that you can shed the bust label. You also can get it put on you. Like Kam Wimbley is flirting with right now. Not saying he is, but thats what I have been hearing.

jetsfan0099
11-17-2008, 07:06 PM
We all know Vernon Gholston is a bust..... He has a whopping 10 tackles this year..... Can't get off a block for his life! Well he still has a chance to be something, Lawerance Taylor is going to mentor him. So hopefully he turns it around. But he looks like a bust. And if anyone says its because he is playing OLB you are wrong! He plays DE a lot of the time, was getting lots of playing time on passing downs as a pass rusher. Couldn't do anything so they gave him less playing time.

illmatic74
11-17-2008, 07:08 PM
We all know Vernon Gholston is a bust..... He has a whopping 10 tackles this year..... Can't get off a block for his life! Well he still has a chance to be something, Lawerance Taylor is going to mentor him. So hopefully he turns it around. But he looks like a bust. And if anyone says its because he is playing OLB you are wrong! He plays DE a lot of the time, was getting lots of playing time on passing downs as a pass rusher. Couldn't do anything so they gave him less playing time.They have dropped him back in coverage a lot this year. They haven't used as rusher that much this year.

jetsfan0099
11-17-2008, 07:43 PM
They have dropped him back in coverage a lot this year. They haven't used as rusher that much this year.

Yes they have..... You just don't notice it because he gets stop at the line and can't create any pressure. The dude has no moves to disengage off of a defender. He just hugs the OL.

Menardo75
11-18-2008, 12:43 AM
Well they said if he gets great coaching he could develop into a very good player. He is still raw and needs some time. Calling him a bust right now is ridiculous.