PDA

View Full Version : 11/11 - Mock Draft Updated


Scott Wright
11-10-2008, 09:51 PM
Wanted to let everyone know that I just made a mock draft update live.

There were a lot of changes and I actually broke down and added a few more underclassmen.

Overall I wasn't real happy with the last version but I am feeling pretty good about this one.

You can reach it via the main page and, as always, please don't direct link in this thread.

http://www.draftcountdown.com/

Constructive Driticism is Always Welcome but be Sure to Give Reasons for Your Opinions.

Note: PLEASE do not complain about the draft order, I took it from a set of power rankings.

SuperKevin
11-10-2008, 09:55 PM
I understand the TE pick for the Bills but don't you think Alex Mack might be more important given the fact that the OL has been dreadful for the Bills this year? Melvin Fowler and Duke Preston are not starters and an impact player like Mack will instantly improve the team.

princefielder28
11-10-2008, 10:03 PM
George Selvie is a solid choice for Green Bay. They have struggled with applying pressure to the QB and Selvie could be a quick fix short term and long term. Do I think TT will make that choice? No, because with Cullen Jenkins coming back next year and youngsters Michael Montgomery and Jeremy Thompson getting big playing time, I am sure he'll opt to look elsewhere. After Sunday's performance the Packers' OL looks awful and addressing the line may the way to go.

renegade
11-10-2008, 10:08 PM
I think the Eagles draft is alright, Jason Smith is going to be a stud IMO.

Smith is my favorite (not the best but my favorite) CB prospect but there is no need what-so-ever at CB. The Eagles just put a lot of money into Asante Samuel, Sheldon Brown is the #2 overall CB in the NFL statistically this season and is likely going to demand more money, Hanson is a serviceable nickel back, Jack Ikegwounu will be healthy and we just spent a 4th on him, The Eagles signed Trae Williams to their PS and he is likely going to make a push for the roster, and the Eagles think much too highly of Lito to trade him for what he's actually worth. I like Smith, but there isn't a need, you never want to get too much money tied up in one position and the Eagles already have a lot of money and young players at CB.

MidwayMonster31
11-10-2008, 10:13 PM
Even though I had reservations before, but I am okay with DHB going to Chicago, given the situation. All of the good defensive ends were taken and the Bears have not drafted a wide receiver in the first round since 2001. (**** David Terrell)
DHB has played much better this year, compared to last year.

Halsey
11-10-2008, 10:18 PM
I'm starting to think OT will be a position the Falcons will at least consider in April. Yeah, they drafted Sam Baker, and he has played well, but he's had both a concussion and a back injury this year. Also, Todd Weiner has struggled to stay on the field and is getting up there in age. I could see the Falcons drafting an OT to be both a long term replacement for Weiner and insurance for Baker. I can't fault the Gresham pick, but wanted to provide some food for thought.

keylime_5
11-10-2008, 10:22 PM
I'm surprised you haven't caught onto the Jack Del Rio/Ken Norton Jr. USC/former NFL teammates connection that could make Maualuga get a good endorsement for the Jaguars....plus Jacksonville needs a physical prescence on their defense in a bad way, that's why I always put Rey to Jacksonville in my mocks even though Laurinaitis is a better prospect probably.

Also, Cleveland does need a corner, but it's not "far and away" our biggest need by any stretch. The Browns are gonna look for a starting ILB and a starting OLB as priority #1 this offseason and CB as a tertiary priority. McDonald is an average starter and is better suited at nickelback, but any browns fan will tell ya the team is more concerned with the complete lack of good linebackers on this team first and foremost, and linebackers are the most important group "far and away" in a 3-4 defense. Not to say we won't pick a CB in round one, if the BPA is a corner we wil, but it's not "far and away" the top need, it's not even the top need.

Breaker
11-10-2008, 10:34 PM
Nice mock Scott.

I would've preferred having Rey Maulaugua going to the Texans, though. He would bring the tough, nasty demeanor that our defense has been missing since... well, since forever. It's becoming more and more evident of how soft we really are, with every game they play.

Plus another reason to draft a LB high for us, is that SLB Zac Diles just suffered a career-threatening injuries, it's the same injury that Fred Weary and Charles Spencer, both of whom has not been even remotely the same as they were pre-injury.

Both WLB, and SLB is a huge question mark now, with Diles hurt, Morlon sucking, and Adibi not being able to hold weight to play WLB. LB just seems like a logical pick with our 1st, especially now that Bulman and Cochran has emerged as pass-rushers for the Texans(Not full-time DE though).

I really think our weakest position now is LB, which could be resolved with some of the amazing prospects that is in this draft.

SuperKevin
11-10-2008, 10:35 PM
Nice mock Scott.

I would've preferred having Rey Maulaugua going to the Texans, though. He would bring the tough, nasty demeanor that our defense has been missing since... well, since forever. It's becoming more and more evident of how soft we really are, with every game they play.

Plus another reason to draft a LB high for us, is that Zac Diles just suffered a career-threatening injuries, it's the same injury that Fred Weary and Charles Spencer, both of whom has not been ever remotely the same as they were pre-injury.

Both WLB, and SLB is a huge question mark now, with Diles hurt, Morlon sucking, and Adibi not being able to hold weight to play WLB. OLB just seems like a logical pick with our 1st, especially now that Bulman and Cochran has emerged as pass-rushers for the Texans(Not full-time DE though).

I really think our weakest position now is LB, which could be resolved with some of the amazing prospects that is in this draft.

Where does Rey fit when the Texans already have DeMeco Ryans at MLB?

george_allen
11-10-2008, 10:36 PM
you'll probably get alot of disagreement from rams fans on the pick with anyone of the top 3 offensive tackles still on the board but cb is what i'm thinking for the rams picking in that area with davis or jenkins available.

i like the pick but i doubt it will go over big with most rams fans . . .

Breaker
11-10-2008, 10:38 PM
Where does Rey fit when the Texans already have DeMeco Ryans at MLB?

ALOT of fans and team expert(like Lance Zeirlien) has repeatedly said that it would be a huge improvement for our D to move DeMeco back to his natural position OLB, which he played in college.

Anyways, looking at Rey size, I was thinking of playing Rey Rey at SLB.

renegade
11-10-2008, 10:40 PM
ALOT of fans and team expert(like Lance Zeirlien) has repeatedly said that it would be a huge improvement for our D to move DeMeco back to his natural position OLB, which he played in college.

Anyways, looking at Rey size, I was thinking of playing Rey Rey at SLB.

Putting Rey at SLB is not a good idea, he's a MLB tried and true and putting him at SLB would put him out of position. Rey in coverage isn't a very good idea either (he would cover the TE at SLB).

Breaker
11-10-2008, 10:43 PM
Putting Rey at SLB is not a good idea, he's a MLB tried and true and putting him at SLB would put him out of position. Rey in coverage isn't a very good idea either (he would cover the TE at SLB).
Yea, I guess that true. But then again our coaches like playing our LB out of position anyways(DeMeco at MLB former WLB, Diles at SLB former MLB).

Vox Populi
11-10-2008, 10:44 PM
I understand the TE pick for the Bills but don't you think Alex Smith might be more important given the fact that the OL has been dreadful for the Bills this year? Melvin Fowler and Duke Preston are not starters and an impact player like Mack will instantly improve the team.

By Smith he means Mack and yeah, I agree with him. I'm not a fan of Pettigrew in the first round either, Gresham to the Bills, though... that I would love <3

SuperKevin
11-10-2008, 10:46 PM
By Smith he means Mack and yeah, I agree with him. I'm not a fan of Pettigrew in the first round either, Gresham to the Bills, though... that I would love <3

There are too many Alex Smith's in the NFL already. I got confused

BeerBaron
11-10-2008, 11:22 PM
I'm alright with the Bears pick given the situation but in all honesty, I think getting a pass rushing DE is our absolute top priority now. It absolutely has to be. Our pass rush has been downright terrible the past 2 games. No pressure at all from the front 4. Had it just been the Titans I would have chalked it up to a good o-line, but it was the same deal the week before with the Lions. The Lions o-line is pretty garbage-tastic and at times vs. them our pass rush would go BACKWARDS........

So, since Hardy, Johnson and Orakpo are all gone, I'm alright with going DHB there. But I think its worth noting in there how bad our pass rush has been.

And our receivers haven't been that bad either. Out of Booker, Lloyd and Rashied Davis we've gotten good #2 and #3 receiver type performances out of them. Would be nice to have a stud, sure-fire #1 target but we've been surviving without. Plus Earl Bennett has yet to even see the field. I'd like to see what he can bring too.

But I just felt it worth pointing out that getting a pass rushing DE has to be the Bears top priority right now.

Geo
11-10-2008, 11:32 PM
I do not think Polian would pass up Maclin, especially after the franchise rids itself of Dead Weight 88 this offseason ... yet I don't think Maclin actually lasts until the Colts' pick come this April, so that is a moot point.

Still riding the TE to the Falcons idea, eh Scott? ;)

Pb&j
11-10-2008, 11:34 PM
I've also got to disagree with the Browns taking a corner that high. Every game this year quarterbacks have stood in the pocket for what seems like forever, while the OLBs get stopped cold. They still cannot stop the run, and that lies on the line backing corps.

If Orakpo is on the board when the Browns pick, he will be a Brown. If he isn't, look for Aaron Curry to be selected to play ILB next to D'Qwell.

RedLionAle
11-10-2008, 11:58 PM
The Texans picked Michael Johnson.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Orakpo was still available.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Vikes99ej
11-11-2008, 12:04 AM
Love love love the Vikings pick. Pure sex

Menardo75
11-11-2008, 12:09 AM
Perfect pick for the Niners.

Babylon
11-11-2008, 12:19 AM
Very happy with the Crabtree to Seattle pick.

jayceheathman
11-11-2008, 12:39 AM
The Texans picked Michael Johnson.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Orakpo was still available.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I would love to see Michael Johnson team up with Mario. He definitely has the potential and if anything gets him contributing it will be with the Texans really talented frong group.

Needless to say, the pick I would love the most is William Moore but I dont think it will happen. Our safeties are horrendous. Also, Aaron Curry would make better sense in our scheme than Ray would.

One last thing for Scott. What makes Malcolm Jenkins go before Vontae Davis? Is it because he has had an extra year of experience?

GB12
11-11-2008, 12:46 AM
George Selvie is a solid choice for Green Bay. They have struggled with applying pressure to the QB and Selvie could be a quick fix short term and long term. Do I think TT will make that choice? No, because with Cullen Jenkins coming back next year and youngsters Michael Montgomery and Jeremy Thompson getting big playing time, I am sure he'll opt to look elsewhere. After Sunday's performance the Packers' OL looks awful and addressing the line may the way to go.
I pretty much agree with that.

I have recently fallen in love with Duke Robinson for the Packers. We have been in desperate need of a guard for a long time and he's one that is worth a first rounder. Tackle is usually a higher priority for offensive lineman and we could go that way too because Clifton and Tauscher are showing their age, especially last game, but I think Robinson is much better than the tackles that'd be available.

I'd like to know what you think about this Scott. He's not a prototypical ZBS guard at 335 pounds, but I think he'd do alright. Heck, it might be a good idea to scrap the whole ZBS after this season anyway.

vidae
11-11-2008, 12:52 AM
Good Chiefs pick. I think most mocks will start to steer away from QB as the season progresses, because I drank the Thigpen Kool-Aid, but right now it's a good pick.

jayceheathman
11-11-2008, 02:26 AM
Do you think the Texans would go after Tim Tebow in the second round if he fell? I know they spent a lot on Schaub and gave up a lot of picks but he has missed considerable amounts of time since he has been in Houston. Sage Rosenfells is definitely proving he isnt even backup quality with the disaster against the Colts and now 4 INT's against the Ravens.

Chris30277
11-11-2008, 08:32 AM
Scott, what are your views on Brandon Spikes as a prospect. I know he plays ILB for Florida, but it appears as if he would make a good fit in as a 4-3 OLB. I am a Falcon fan, and I like the TE pick, but I do not think Gresham fits the scheme.

Thomas Dimitroff stressed that he drafts off of scheme specific needs, and it is clear by the players that we drafted last year that he wasn't lying. Gresham is a solid target; however, in Mike Mularkey's scheme TE have never been highly valued. I know a TE could be a great saftey valve for a young QB, but I believe that a TE in the first round will not be coveted by the Falcons this year.

I think Dimitroff will approach this draft with the idea of getting younger at several postions. SS, WLB, and NT. Free agency should determine the route we go when we are on the clock. Aaron Curry is the on OLB that I want more than anyone else, but since my team is playing so well right now, it is looking like he will be long gone (Hence why I asked about Spikes).

bored of education
11-11-2008, 09:00 AM
Brandon Spikes will be going to the Chiefs in round 2 :)

lost33cause
11-11-2008, 09:06 AM
Assuming we(bengals) resign Benson why would we not pick an offensive lineman to fix the problem of giving our rb's a hole to run through or fix the problem of not being able to keep Carson on his feet when he does play?

Center position is the weakest but obviously none warrent a top 5 pick.
RT is going to have a whole after Stacey Andrews hits the FA market.
LT is looking like a whole with Levi unable to do much right this season from being able to block his guy or stay still in the snap count.

Whitworth at LG can be moved to either Tackle positions if need be.

We also have Anthony Collins whom we got in the 4th last year but we don't know what we have with him yet and we don't even know if he's a T or a G.

I think we take an OT in the first to play LT or RT. We take a C in the second and use what we have to fill the rest of the OL after letting Andrews(FA) and Jones(cut OR trade) go.

BUT even if we don't go OL in the first I highly doubt its a RB as long as we resign Benson which I'm sure we'll do since he's done nothing but impress since being here and seems to have his head on straight as well.

ccB
11-11-2008, 09:11 AM
I like Maclin a lot but the homer in me would rather have Darrius Heyward-Bey. TE could also be an option for the Ravens. Its a position we really wanted to address last year but didn't have the chance to.

Gay Ork Wang
11-11-2008, 09:20 AM
Assuming we(bengals) resign Benson why would we not pick an offensive lineman to fix the problem of giving our rb's a hole to run through or fix the problem of not being able to keep Carson on his feet when he does play?

Center position is the weakest but obviously none warrent a top 5 pick.
RT is going to have a whole after Stacey Andrews hits the FA market.
LT is looking like a whole with Levi unable to do much right this season from being able to block his guy or stay still in the snap count.

Whitworth at LG can be moved to either Tackle positions if need be.

We also have Anthony Collins whom we got in the 4th last year but we don't know what we have with him yet and we don't even know if he's a T or a G.

I think we take an OT in the first to play LT or RT. We take a C in the second and use what we have to fill the rest of the OL after letting Andrews(FA) and Jones(cut OR trade) go.

BUT even if we don't go OL in the first I highly doubt its a RB as long as we resign Benson which I'm sure we'll do since he's done nothing but impress since being here and seems to have his head on straight as well.
face it: its cedric benson
once u sign him, he wont play anymore

DoWnThEfiElD
11-11-2008, 09:23 AM
Brandon Spikes will be going to the Chiefs in round 2 :)

Make that Lions Round 2 ;-)

Personally I think he is a beast and should contended with Lauranitis and Maualuga as the 1st LB taken this year.

DiG
11-11-2008, 09:52 AM
Still don't like the Tyson Jackson pick any more than I did in your last mock. Just doesn't make sense for us based on our strengths and our needs. If we go DE then we need pass rush on the outside and Jackson won't give that to us. I think a penetrating dt like vance walker or jerry would be better value than jackson for our line.

Race for the Heisman
11-11-2008, 10:02 AM
The only pick that jumps out at me in the first 16 is Moreno. I don't see too many big needs with the Jets but Moreno doesn't strike me as the pick. They have a productive Leon Washington and I think getting a running back a round later makes more sense. Then again, that's about where Moreno's value is and the need matches up to an extent.

I feel like the Ravens would pick DHB before they would pick Maclin since they already have Yamon Figurs and DHB would complement him better.

I think the Packers would prefer a different type of end rather than Selvie and would go a different direction (Peria Jerry, Ziggy Hood, Geno Atkins, Tyson Jackson, Ricky Jean-Francois for example) rather than pick up a guy who is as one-dimensional as Selvie.

As for the Bears, the fans seem in consensus that at this point defensive end is the biggest need, and I would be inclined to agree and believe the front office will see it the same way. Everette Brown maybe?

Even though he is as polished a blocker as they come, I think Pettigrew's legal issues will cause him to drop a bit, and he certainly doesn't have the physical ceiling a guy like Gresham does. In what could be a very deep tight end class if the right guys come out, I think he falls out of the first. Coffman would probably have decent value there if they insisted on going tight end.

I'm not sure how much Rashad Johnson will be considered a reach at 29 come draft time and safety make a hell of a lot more sense than corner.

I don't get this whole Percy Harvin must be the in first round thing. The strengths he shows in college are vision and elusiveness. He's not going to be a running back (consistently, anyway) and they just drafted Chris Johnson to do the same thing. Defensive tackle make a lot more sense, even if they hold on to Haynesworth.

urinemonkey
11-11-2008, 10:45 AM
It's pretty much a lock that the Broncos will take Brandon Spikes if he comes out and is available. It's a lock given that MLB is a huge need, and that Shanahan favors SEC prospects, especially those from Florida. I believe he is much more inclined to take a LB than a S, because he has had success picking LB's early before (Al Wilson, D.J. Williams, John Mobley, Ian Gold, etc.) and that LB is the safer pick because you know they are likely to be productive right away. Spikes' speed also makes him particularly attractive to Shanahan, as he favors speedy LB's. Safety is a big need as well, but you can get a good safety later. Just like the Skins did with Chris Horton. MLB is the more important position on a defense than S.

thebow305
11-11-2008, 12:51 PM
LOVE the Dolphins pick!! Probably my favorite one at the moment and I'm glad you finally came through on this mock.

I'm still a little shocked at how high you have us picking. Number 12? I know you say not to make a big deal about the order, but at 5-4 and games still remaining against the Bills, Raiders, Chiefs, San Fran, and St. Louis, I find it hard to believe we will be picking that early. Orakpo is a GREAT selection nevertheless, and makes all the sense in the world.

One more thing though. The pick for Philly makes absolutely no sense to me. They are LOADED at corner, and despite the loss of Shephard, they still would have a good nucleus of young prospects to choose from. With OT, Safety, Defensive End, and Tight End as much more obvious pressing needs, I really don't see them taking a corner, especially in round 1. Just my take.

Xiomera
11-11-2008, 01:22 PM
Scott, how close are Stafford and Bradford, in your estimation?

Is this a Peyton Manning - Ryan Leaf scenario? Or perhaps a better comparison would be Vince Young - Matt Leinart?

Mr. Offseason
11-11-2008, 01:26 PM
I'm starting to think OT will be a position the Falcons will at least consider in April. Yeah, they drafted Sam Baker, and he has played well, but he's had both a concussion and a back injury this year. Also, Todd Weiner has struggled to stay on the field and is getting up there in age. I could see the Falcons drafting an OT to be both a long term replacement for Weiner and insurance for Baker. I can't fault the Gresham pick, but wanted to provide some food for thought.

i disagree with this 100%. we have to see what happens the rest of the year before we can even consider this, and even then i dont think we will remotely consider selecting one with our 1st round pick.

i like greshams receiving ability but i am not as sold on his blocking as you seem to be scott. i havent watched a lot of him specifically, but when i have paid attention to him his blocking has been sub-par. i wouldnt say hes as bad as beckum, but they have similar roles as WR's with TE size, though oklahoma does still ask gresham to block more than beckum ever did this year. i just dont see us drafting a TE in round 1 with murlarkey here (sp?) as our OC, and if we do it would be someone like pettigrew who is a more well rounded player. he might not stretch the field as well as gresham but he is a very good blocker and a very good receiver from the position. thats who id get if i was drafting a TE in round 1.

as for other needs, i dont think we need a big space eater like grady jackson. we do need someone who is good against the run at NT, but we also need someone who can rush the passer. i dont want terrance cody for this reason. he wont have an impact rushing the passer and would essentially be a 1st round pick spent on a 2 down role player, which is terrible value. grady jackson was a 6th round pick because he is a 2 down DT in this league, and cody is a 2 down DT in this league also. he wont go in round 6 obviously, but i would be very dissapointed if we drafted him in round 1. someone like sen'derrick marks would be great for us (if he can handle the double team versus the run which i still havent checked on) and if they both arent there... i could see us drafting taylor mays if the draft falls as you have it.

overall, nice job scott.

-Mr. Offseason

P-L
11-11-2008, 01:47 PM
Scott, you need to fix the analysis for the Chiefs pick.

Marcus Vick was the other RS Sophomore QB drafted. Not Michael Vick.
Marcus Vick went undrafted to the Dolphins.

Malaka
11-11-2008, 01:56 PM
Brian Cushing makes a lot of sense in the Giants pick, I like it, although uncreative as almost everyone has us taking him round 1 (including me), and I can see why.

Cushing is a prefect fit for the Giants, he is a good overall linebacker, very good pass rushing ability, decent in coverage, and a great tackler, his only problem are the injury concerns, and I believe if he was healthy for his Junior year he'd easily be a top 15 pick. Cushing also seems like one of those blue collar guys that the Giants have built there team around, and seems like Jerry Reese would love to carry on that drafting scheme.

Now if we get Tuck to gain a few pounds next year we can start him at DT as he is an inside pass rusher, and great against the run, Osi Umenyiora at LE, and Mathias Kiwanuka at RE that would be amazing, our pass rush would be terrific and we could possibly have the best D-line in football with Fred Robbins being a very good DT. Cushing, Pierce and Kehl would be our linebackers, Kehl might not have looked like a pro bowler right now, but considering he is a 4th round rookie who has taken the starting job and has at least played decently... he is on the right track.

Bengals78
11-11-2008, 01:59 PM
I still dont see us taking a RB in round one if we can take Orakpo, Oher or any other more important position. We have greater needs than RB.

RaiderNation
11-11-2008, 02:05 PM
Perfect Raider pick

giantsfan
11-11-2008, 02:21 PM
With the way your mock shakes out I don't mind the Cushing pick, although I think if one of the premier DEs is at our pick that's the way we'll lean. Tollefson has been better than expected as a rotational guy, but if we get his by a serious injury again I think the team would like to have someone better ready to take over without having to switch Kiwi from LB back to DE.

rockio42
11-11-2008, 02:37 PM
Scott...love ya man but the only way we might not go OT in the frist round (this is for the rams btw) is if Monroe is the only OT there so with Oher being on the board and our division rivals picking next (if we let the 49ers grab Smith or Oher I will be pissed, and so should Chris Long) so I think if everythng goes the way you have it i would say Oher is a better pick

thank you for your time

rockio42
11-11-2008, 02:40 PM
Scott, you need to fix the analysis for the Chiefs pick.

Marcus Vick was the other RS Sophomore QB drafted. Not Michael Vick.

I can not see a scenario where you are actually being serious...

EvilMonkey
11-11-2008, 02:43 PM
Would rather have an O-Line pick for the Packers. Like Selvie and with Ted Thompson showing taking BPA I guess I could see it happen, but Jeremy Thompson has looked good against the run and needs to develop a lot more as a pass-rusher but has the athleticism to do that and Mike Montgomery looks pretty good too so hoping for some O-Line help first round.

TaylorMade
11-11-2008, 02:45 PM
I like this mock a lot better than your last one Scott. Even though the Redskins pick is the same. It's not an exciting pick, but I don't mind Tyson Jackson. I think Brandon Spikes might be a possibility as well. I would like to see what your thoughts on him are at the SAM position and where you think he'll be drafted.

GB12
11-11-2008, 03:40 PM
I think the Packers would prefer a different type of end rather than Selvie and would go a different direction (Peria Jerry, Ziggy Hood, Geno Atkins, Tyson Jackson, Ricky Jean-Francois for example) rather than pick up a guy who is as one-dimensional as Selvie..
We already have two well rounded ends in Aaron Kampman and Cullen Jenkins. If we did take an end it'd be to get a pass rusher to allow Jenkins to continue to move inside on passing downs, which is what we used to have in KGB.

I don't get why so many people and a large number of Packer fans on this site want a DE in round one though. Like I said we already are more than fine with our starting ends, and I don't think a guy drafted soley as a pass rusher is worth a first round pick. You can find one demensional pass rushers later in the draft, and we might have some guys on the team right now that could be servicable in Montgomery, Hunter, and Thompson. It doesn't make any sense to me to spend a pick on that.

Our OL needs a complete overhaul and a first round talent to head the next generation would get it going. We knew our tackles were getting up there in age, but not many thought they'd decline this much since last year. Our guards simply were never fixed from when we let Wahle and Rivera walk (which was the right move though). The only man on our line that I'm confident will still be starting for us in 2 years is Scott Wells.

I'd be for a move away from the zone blocking to more of a power line. The ZBS just isn't working here and if we're ever going to make a change this is the time. I not too optimistic about that happening though because I think McCarthy will want to stick with what he's been running.

In any case here's what I'd do with our line in the offseason. I'd let Clifton go in free agency. I'd try to get Tauscher to agree to a one year deal, anything longer let him walk too. Then draft Duke Robinson in the first round. 2009 offensive line: Daryn Colledge-Duke Robinson-Scott Wells-Jason Spitz/Josh Sitton-Mark Tauscher. There are also others that'd compete for the other guard spot, I'd like Sitton to take it. There isn't really anyone to take from free agency so to eventually replace Tauscher we'd probably have to take another tackle in the draft.

I don't see how we can go anywhere other than offensive line with our pick.

STARHEATHER
11-11-2008, 03:51 PM
i could fathom stafford at 1, but its too high hes not going to be a great one, but their desperation may intervene. but after that its pretty bad top to bottom. i mean you have top tackle prospects, top dl prospects behind malcolm jenkins, chris wells, james laurinitis rey maaluga. its funny to me that the same teams that will be making the mistakes that made the mistakes last year. malcolm jenkins must be the greatest db prospect ever. in a world of top picks running 4.3 this 4.45 guy is warrented of a top 5 pick? all the historically bad drafting teams will again be making the big errors. the steelers are going to get duke 28 and the bungles will pick beanie 4th. theres a reason why the same teams pick high year after year.

indyfan1985
11-11-2008, 03:53 PM
LOVE your pick of DT Sen'Derrick Marks to the Colts. Having Marks alongside NT Antonio Johnson would make for some great D-Line play. We already have our great edge rushers in Mathis and Freeney. Johnson would be our big beef up the middle stopping the run. And Marks would be our version of Tommie Harris, penetrating to the backfield creating sacks. I really hope to see it happen.

Splat
11-11-2008, 04:12 PM
I'm really hoping Tyler Thigpen locks up the QB spot for the Chiefs this year so we are not hand cuffed to taking a QB first round and can go BPA.

DE and MLB are HUGE needs we have zero pass rush what so ever and other then Derrick Johnson we are pretty thin at LB.

I really don't think we have as many holes as I thought we did a few games ago that being siad players like Tyler Thigpen and Mark Bradley need to prove it has not been a fluke.

Xiomera
11-11-2008, 04:49 PM
Marcus Vick went undrafted to the Dolphins.

Yeah, my mistake. Was Marcus Vick not a RS Sophomore? I know he declared early despite having little chance at being drafted. I thought that was the point Scott was trying to make with Bradford -- that RS Sophomore QB's in the NFL are rare and risky.

Scott Wright
11-11-2008, 05:28 PM
Also, Cleveland does need a corner, but it's not "far and away" our biggest need by any stretch. The Browns are gonna look for a starting ILB and a starting OLB as priority #1 this offseason and CB as a tertiary priority.

I definitely disagree with that. In addition to Andra Davis and D'Qwell Jackson inside they also have a couple of youngsters they like in Beau Bell and Leon Williams. As far as a replacement for McGinest outside goes, they LOVE Alex Hall.

Scott Wright
11-11-2008, 05:37 PM
Scott, what are your views on Brandon Spikes as a prospect.

I see him in the middle of a 4-3 and if he comes out, which word is he might, he will be a potential late first rounder and the #3 ILB prospect.

Scott Wright
11-11-2008, 05:40 PM
Scott, how close are Stafford and Bradford, in your estimation?

Is this a Peyton Manning - Ryan Leaf scenario? Or perhaps a better comparison would be Vince Young - Matt Leinart?

Not that close. That's not to say I don't like Bradford a lot because I do, but given the choice I would take Stafford every day of the week.

As you know when evaluating top quarterbacks I am all about minimizing risk and there are just fewer question marks with Stafford based on experience and system.

regoob2
11-11-2008, 05:42 PM
I definitely disagree with that. In addition to Andra Davis and D'Qwell Jackson inside they also have a couple of youngsters they like in Beau Bell and Leon Williams. As far as a replacement for McGinest outside goes, they LOVE Alex Hall.
Do you have any inside info on the Bears? Will +rep! :)

Geo
11-11-2008, 05:58 PM
I definitely disagree with that. In addition to Andra Davis and D'Qwell Jackson inside they also have a couple of youngsters they like in Beau Bell and Leon Williams. As far as a replacement for McGinest outside goes, they LOVE Alex Hall.
As an aside, D'Qwell Jackson isn't very good though. Yet another overhyped Maryland player.

Babylon
11-11-2008, 06:44 PM
[QUOTE=Splat420;1308079]I'm really hoping Tyler Thigpen locks up the QB spot for the Chiefs this year so we are not hand cuffed to taking a QB first round and can go BPA.

Or the QB could be the BPA.

CC.SD
11-11-2008, 07:04 PM
Sigh. I guess if the Bolts really do fall completely to pieces, Rey would be a great consolation prize. His attitude and physicality plus the return of Shawne Merriman...nice. Not to mention free up Shaun Phillips finally.

scottyboy
11-11-2008, 08:21 PM
loving the giants pick, really am. Finally gives us a talented young OLB. Brings a jersey boy back home and would let us keep Kiwi at DE.

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 08:40 PM
I think Oakland would go with Crabtree. I don't think we'll be spending big money on a lineman any time soon.

Anyways, I really think we'll trade the pick, we have like 6 top 10 draft picks.

etk
11-11-2008, 08:56 PM
Love the Bucs pick. I'd love Harvin more, but Jerry is exactly the interior lineman I want.

Breaker
11-11-2008, 09:08 PM
Scott, just wondering about the underclassmen that you put in your mock, are they prospects that you feel are pretty likely to declare for this draft?

Just curious as to why you added new UC prospects that weren't in the last mock. (e.g. Sam Bradford)

619
11-11-2008, 09:12 PM
I think Oakland would go with Crabtree. I don't think we'll be spending big money on a lineman any time soon.

Anyways, I really think we'll trade the pick, we have like 6 top 10 draft picks.

If we revert back to our old ways we go Crabtree. I'm just hoping the franchise finally realizes you can no longer choose to neglect the trenches and expect to be remotely successful in this league. That clinic Peppers put on Harris this past weekend was uh, disastrous !

Scott Wright
11-11-2008, 09:15 PM
Scott, just wondering about the underclassmen that you put in your mock, are they prospects that you feel are pretty likely to declare for this draft?

Just curious as to why you added new UC prospects that weren't in the last mock. (e.g. Sam Bradford)

It's a balancing act between things I hear, gut feelings and making the mock "fit". There really is no science to it.

Scott Wright
11-11-2008, 09:19 PM
Anyways, I really think we'll trade the pick, we have like 6 top 10 draft picks.

Ha, you and every other team at the top of the draft.

You have no idea how many e-mails I have gotten from fans of the Lions, Raiders, Chiefs, Bengals, etc. who think their team will trade down. Who wants to move up? And even if there is a team that wants to move up who is willing to pay the price in terms of draft pick compensation and that monster, knee-buckling contract?

Remember, Charley Casserly said that when he was with the Texans he was calling around trying to trade the #1 overall pick and a common answer he received was "What will you give us to take it?". Teams just don't want top draft picks anymore, they would literally rather have a few second rounders than #2 or #3 overall.

Geo
11-11-2008, 09:24 PM
That makes me wonder:

If Stafford and Moreno both declare, could that affect the decisions of some of the (eligible) Georgia defensive players? Ie. their shot at a national championship next year takes a major hit without those guys.

Then again, if Florida loses Tebow and Harvin to the '09 Draft, and Alabama loses their QB to graduation too ...

I can see Marks declaring though. He's been a three-year starter at Auburn and has a great chance at being a Day One pick. It's not like Auburn will compete for a championship next year, if anything there's a chance Tuberville could be fired (and go to Clemson).

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 09:27 PM
Ha, you and every other team at the top of the draft.

You have no idea how many e-mails I have gotten from fans of the Lions, Raiders, Chiefs, Bengals, etc. who think their team will trade down. Who wants to move up? And even if there is a team that wants to move up who is willing to pay the price in terms of draft pick compensation and that monster, knee-buckling contract?

Remember, Charley Casserly said that when he was with the Texans he was calling around trying to trade the #1 overall pick and a common answer he received was "What will you give us to take it?". Teams just don't want top draft picks anymore, they would literally rather have a few second rounders than #2 or #3 overall.

I know its not simple to trade a top pick, I don't think it is but:

2008
1. Darren McFadden, RB, Arkansas
2007
1. JaMarcus Russell, QB, LSU
2006
1. Michael Huff, S, Texas
2004
1. Robert Gallery, OT, Iowa

We're paying all of those busts BIG money, plus Javon Walker, Kwame Harris, big money going to Nnamdi, Tommy Kelly. I don't think we'll be able to afford to pay a franchise LT. If I'm not mistaken, on average, Left Tackles are the 2nd most payed position in the NFL after QBs. I really doubt we'll draft Andre, even though we really could use him.

WMD
11-11-2008, 10:24 PM
Andre Smith and Greg Hardy would get an A+ grade from me. Stafford and Hardy gets just an A.

Leon Sandcastle
11-12-2008, 12:23 AM
The Bills don't value Tight Ends that much. Don't see us going Tight End in the first two rounds especially since we need a talent infusion at the DE position.

Alex Mack wouldn't hurt neither.

G-Men88
11-12-2008, 01:16 AM
2007 mocks: Everyone has us taking Paul Posluszny

2008 mocks: Everyone has us taking Dan Connor

2009 mocks: Everyone has us taking Brian Cushing

I just don't see it. In this scenario i guess i don't have a huge problem with it, but if Taylor Mays makes it to the 20's the Giants will move up to take him no doubt.

Turtlepower
11-12-2008, 01:20 AM
2007 mocks: Everyone has us taking Paul Posluszny

2008 mocks: Everyone has us taking Dan Connor

2009 mocks: Everyone has us taking Brian Cushing

I just don't see it. In this scenario i guess i don't have a huge problem with it, but if Taylor Mays makes it to the 20's the Giants will move up to take him no doubt.

Considering that Scott isn't doing any trades, this is a fine pick. Also, in the previous 2 years, we had much bigger holes than OLB. We have no immediate needs now except for an OLB, so Cushing is a good choice.

CJSchneider
11-12-2008, 07:00 AM
Scott,
I love both the 49ers' at #6 and the Saints' pick at #14. In regards to the Saints, as you mentioned in your commentary, the Saints will be looking to add depth; not easily done with only 4 picks. In all honesty, do you see them trading down in order to add picks? I'm not expecting you to post a draft with trades, but do you think you will include a statement about the possibility as the "Final Mock" approaches?

Smooth Criminal
11-12-2008, 07:05 AM
Steelers pick might be good, depends on which OL we resign and which we dont. We desperately need a LT cause Marvel isn't going to be resigned and Starks is terrible. I think we'll resign Kemo to play LG, leaving us with a huge hole at LT.

Robinson would definately be an upgrade over Kemo or Simmons though.

CC.SD
11-12-2008, 11:49 AM
2007 mocks: Everyone has us taking Paul Posluszny

2008 mocks: Everyone has us taking Dan Connor

2009 mocks: Everyone has us taking Brian Cushing

I just don't see it. In this scenario i guess i don't have a huge problem with it, but if Taylor Mays makes it to the 20's the Giants will move up to take him no doubt.

Phillips/Mays is a safety tandem I've been daydreaming about for quite a while. It all came crashing down last year though.

Young Legend
11-12-2008, 12:20 PM
like the A.Smith pick.

him and Gallery will make a excellent left side

Number 10
11-12-2008, 12:31 PM
Cushing is an IDEAL fit, as ideal as it gets, for our strong side linebacker in Spags scheme.

But unless he has a weak pre-draft process or has some sort of medical flare up, I don't see him falling out of the top 20. Versatility is what a lot of GMs are looking for these days and I don't think there is a LB position Cushing couldn't play outside of the Tampa 2 scheme. Every time I watch USC, I am much more impressed with him in comparison to Maualuga.

MetSox17
11-12-2008, 01:11 PM
Oh i hate not having a first round pick.. :(

STARHEATHER
11-12-2008, 07:47 PM
malcolm jenkins is the greatest db prospect of all time. im going to remember where i heard it first. to go along with james laurinitis. the greatest lb prospect of all time. the man whos gone from 6 4 255 4.4 to 6 1 230 4.7 in a single bound

JackoWacko
11-12-2008, 09:55 PM
jenkins, laurinitis, and cushing equals no championship

STARHEATHER
11-13-2008, 09:38 PM
apparently in many eyes they are the greatest prospects ever at their positions. considering how many dbs and lbs get picked in the top 5. ill take my chances with the guy who might be able to play nfl qb. not the guy i know is going to get torched on a regular basis or the other guy whos going to get eliminated by blockers and miss tackles and get run over by backs. so for me ill take tony pike. im real good at bustin myths. see dorsey, long, ellis, mcfadden, rivers etc etc etc etc. i think a good porition of the draft board is on the dorseyville express to bustland especially at the top. and those mistakes are expensive

illmatic74
11-13-2008, 11:23 PM
apparently in many eyes they are the greatest prospects ever at their positions. considering how many dbs and lbs get picked in the top 5. ill take my chances with the guy who might be able to play nfl qb. not the guy i know is going to get torched on a regular basis or the other guy whos going to get eliminated by blockers and miss tackles and get run over by backs. so for me ill take tony pike. im real good at bustin myths. see dorsey, long, ellis, mcfadden, rivers etc etc etc etc. i think a good porition of the draft board is on the dorseyville express to bustland especially at the top. and those mistakes are expensiveLet's see who would I take aCB and LB who have had 3 years of top level production and can start in the NFL imediately or an inexperienced unproven QB whose only dominant game came against Miami of OHIO

STARHEATHER
11-13-2008, 11:37 PM
pat willis jon beason jerrod mayo just recently. i dont think any were considered top 5 picks at any point that i can remember either. and these guys are far superior athletes and had much better production than maaluga/laurinits. but yet, these guys are top 10 picks somehow while these guys werent. its not even remotely the same level of athlete or player but there are some who believe that james laurinitis and maaluga are worthy of a higher selection. i just dont get the logic. ill take a player with the potential to play qb at the nfl level over bad lbs any day. especially ones with just glaring shining crystal clear weaknesses that these guys have. i just dont get the logic of how malcolm jenkins can be in champ bailey land as far as corners go when he doesnt have the 4.2 speed. i just dont get it. for me, top picks are limited to
1. qb
2.lt
3. dl
4 the occasional freaky rb, although im starting to think otherwise maybe.

these positions, lb, wr, rb, interior line, te, db, theyre complementary players. its a lot harder to find a qb or a lt quality than it is to find a quality wr or lb or any of the other positions. so for me to consider a complementary player with a high pick. they better be the best prospect ever. they must be top end athletes. they must dominate the field like no other ever has. otherwise, theyre not worth the pick. if you can tell me james laurinitis or rey maaluga is a better prospec than pat willis or jerrod mayo, then they are worthy. but i highly doubt it. strongly vehemently disagree that these two are even remotelky in that class, let alone be considered with higher selections

Joker_232
11-13-2008, 11:41 PM
pat willis jon beason jerrod mayo just recently. i dont think any were considered top 5 picks at any point that i can remember either. and these guys are far superior athletes and had much better production than maaluga/laurinits. but yet, these guys are top 10 picks somehow while these guys werent. its not even remotely the same level of athlete or player but there are some who believe that james laurinitis and maaluga are worthy of a higher selection. i just dont get the logic. ill take a player with the potential to play qb at the nfl level over bad lbs any day. especially ones with just glaring shining crystal clear weaknesses that these guys have. i just dont get the logic of how malcolm jenkins can be in champ bailey land as far as corners go when he doesnt have the 4.2 speed. i just dont get it. for me, top picks are limited to
1. qb
2.lt
3. dl
4 the occasional freaky rb, although im starting to think otherwise maybe.

these positions, lb, wr, rb, interior line, te, db, theyre complementary players. its a lot harder to find a qb or a lt quality than it is to find a quality wr or lb or any of the other positions. so for me to consider a complementary player with a high pick. they better be the best prospect ever. they must be top end athletes. they must dominate the field like no other ever has. otherwise, theyre not worth the pick. if you can tell me james laurinitis or rey maaluga is a better prospec than pat willis or jerrod mayo, then they are worthy. but i highly doubt it. strongly vehemently disagree that these two are even remotelky in that class, let alone be considered with higher selections

Dude, its not that they are better prospects....sometimes it does come down to need!

As much as i love Rey Rey he is not even close to the prospect of P Willy. But teams in the top 10 are in need to LB's

STARHEATHER
11-13-2008, 11:47 PM
so youre going to overdraft and overpay these guys. lbs grow on trees. you can find good ones everywhere. i could understand a qb or a lt, but youre going to overreach and overpay for a lb who doesnt even have remotely the physical skills of the recent top prospects. thats where the mistakes get made right there rookie you did something right. i call it the calvin johnson syndrome. was calvin johnson the greatest wr prospect ever.is he a great player. yes. probably. was he worth the pick. no. hes a complementary player. he doesnt make your team better on his own. its just not a position that you need to or should reach at. especially on players with such limited physical ability.

CashmoneyDrew
11-13-2008, 11:49 PM
There really is no point in arguing with mythstarheatherbusta. He'll ask you to prove him wrong and give him facts and when you do he justs ignores them. Not to mention he's a hypocrite that uses failed/circular logic.

Joker_232
11-13-2008, 11:50 PM
There really is no point in arguing with mythstarheatherbusta. He'll ask you to prove him wrong and give him facts and when you do he justs ignores them. Not to mention he's a hypocrite that uses failed/circular logic.

ive been noticing that...lol

illmatic74
11-13-2008, 11:50 PM
pat willis jon beason jerrod mayo just recently. i dont think any were considered top 5 picks at any point that i can remember either. and these guys are far superior athletes and had much better production than maaluga/laurinits. but yet, these guys are top 10 picks somehow while these guys werent. its not even remotely the same level of athlete or player but there are some who believe that james laurinitis and maaluga are worthy of a higher selection. i just dont get the logic. ill take a player with the potential to play qb at the nfl level over bad lbs any day. especially ones with just glaring shining crystal clear weaknesses that these guys have. i just dont get the logic of how malcolm jenkins can be in champ bailey land as far as corners go when he doesnt have the 4.2 speed. i just dont get it. for me, top picks are limited to
1. qb
2.lt
3. dl
4 the occasional freaky rb, although im starting to think otherwise maybe.

these positions, lb, wr, rb, interior line, te, db, theyre complementary players. its a lot harder to find a qb or a lt quality than it is to find a quality wr or lb or any of the other positions. so for me to consider a complementary player with a high pick. they better be the best prospect ever. they must be top end athletes. they must dominate the field like no other ever has. otherwise, theyre not worth the pick. if you can tell me james laurinitis or rey maaluga is a better prospec than pat willis or jerrod mayo, then they are worthy. but i highly doubt it. strongly vehemently disagree that these two are even remotelky in that class, let alone be considered with higher selectionsYou have a good point that LBs shouldn't be taken in the top 5. But to say you would take a devolopmental QB prospect like Pike over immediate NFL starters like Jenkins, Laurinaitis, Maualuga is absurd. Also because Jenkins doesn't run a 4.2 but neither does Asomugha, Clemens, Samuel, etc

Joker_232
11-13-2008, 11:57 PM
You have a good point that LBs shouldn't be taken in the top 5. But to say you would take a devolopmental QB prospect like Pike over immediate NFL starters like Jenkins, Laurinaitis, Maualuga is absurd. Also because Jenkins doesn't run a 4.2 but neither does Asomugha, Clemens, Samuel, etc

and we all know how good aso is...

STARHEATHER
11-13-2008, 11:57 PM
i dont believe theyre immediate nfl starters. i know for a fact if eiher went to the steelers, theyd be on the bench 3 years. you can find malcolm jenkins or maaluga or laurinitis anywhere. you cant find dudes who have potential top end nfl qb physicla traits. there arent many of them.you always always always myst roll the dice on a qb. the potential dividends far outweigh the worst case scenario. no other player will make the impact if they pan out. its the position where championships and consistent winning are born. thou shalt not pass ever. thout may trade down as long as they still get the qb. thout shall not pick wrs and lbs when qbs are out there that have the traits

Joker_232
11-14-2008, 12:00 AM
i dont believe theyre immediate nfl starters. i know for a fact if eiher went to the steelers, theyd be on the bench 3 years. you can find malcolm jenkins or maaluga or laurinitis anywhere. you cant find dudes who have potential top end nfl qb physicla traits. there arent many of them.you always always always myst roll the dice on a qb. the potential dividends far outweigh the worst case scenario. no other player will make the impact if they pan out. its the position where championships and consistent winning are born. thou shalt not pass ever. thout may trade down as long as they still get the qb. thout shall not pick wrs and lbs when qbs are out there that have the traits


well it will all depend on which ones declare....

STARHEATHER
11-14-2008, 12:01 AM
samuel mid rds
asomugoh 28th pick
clemens wasnt top 10

so vbasically, malcolm jenkins is a better prospect than all these guys. hes in champ bailey land. with his 4.5 speed vs champ at 4.24. he must have better ball skills or something

STARHEATHER
11-14-2008, 12:02 AM
anyone that does. do not pass go do not pick kellen winslow when ben roethlisberger is available do not collect 200 do not win super bowl.

illmatic74
11-14-2008, 12:11 AM
anyone that does. do not pass go do not pick kellen winslow when ben roethlisberger is available do not collect 200 do not win super bowl.Do you think the Browns would have won a Super Bowl if they had Rothelisberger?

steelersfan43
11-14-2008, 12:12 AM
pat willis jon beason jerrod mayo just recently. i dont think any were considered top 5 picks at any point that i can remember either. and these guys are far superior athletes and had much better production than maaluga/laurinits. but yet, these guys are top 10 picks somehow while these guys werent. its not even remotely the same level of athlete or player but there are some who believe that james laurinitis and maaluga are worthy of a higher selection. i just dont get the logic. ill take a player with the potential to play qb at the nfl level over bad lbs any day. especially ones with just glaring shining crystal clear weaknesses that these guys have. i just dont get the logic of how malcolm jenkins can be in champ bailey land as far as corners go when he doesnt have the 4.2 speed. i just dont get it. for me, top picks are limited to
1. qb
2.lt
3. dl
4 the occasional freaky rb, although im starting to think otherwise maybe.

these positions, lb, wr, rb, interior line, te, db, theyre complementary players. its a lot harder to find a qb or a lt quality than it is to find a quality wr or lb or any of the other positions. so for me to consider a complementary player with a high pick. they better be the best prospect ever. they must be top end athletes. they must dominate the field like no other ever has. otherwise, theyre not worth the pick. if you can tell me james laurinitis or rey maaluga is a better prospec than pat willis or jerrod mayo, then they are worthy. but i highly doubt it. strongly vehemently disagree that these two are even remotelky in that class, let alone be considered with higher selections

I'm really starting to think that 'elite' Qbs are unnecessary for a team's success. All you need is a good line, good rbs, solid recievers and then a adequate qb and the offense succeed. Look at the patriots this year without brady, Cassel took a while to get used to it but now it is clicking he is playing well, and puting his team in a position to win the game, because he has all of the guys around him. I think this is what is happening with Tony romo aswell, Pro bowl talent all around him on offense, It is hard for a decent qb to not succeed in that situation.
Now look at Big Ben and the steelers offense. Many consider him to be an very good qb, He has good targets at wr, but the Offensive line is so bad The offense is 5th to last in the NFL because he never has time to do anything with the ball. A good line makes a Solid qb look great and a great qb look elite. Brady and Manning are great qbs, but without the great protection of their lines over the years, They would not have nearly as much success. And this year, Manning's line has struggled with injurys and whatnot, and it has been his and the team's worst year in recent memory.

The supporting cast, and the Line especially are what make an offense and the qb look good. Until you have those pieces, Drafting a qb high doesnt make sense.

illmatic74
11-14-2008, 12:13 AM
samuel mid rds
asomugoh 28th pick
clemens wasnt top 10

so vbasically, malcolm jenkins is a better prospect than all these guys. hes in champ bailey land. with his 4.5 speed vs champ at 4.24. he must have better ball skills or somethingMalcolm Jenkins reminds me of Nate Clements. Even though Clements wasn't a top 5 pick he has put up top 5 production.

Joker_232
11-14-2008, 12:16 AM
I'm really starting to think that 'elite' Qbs are unnecessary for a team's success. All you need is a good line, good rbs, solid recievers and then a adequate qb and the offense succeed. Look at the patriots this year without brady, Cassel took a while to get used to it but now it is clicking he is playing well, and puting his team in a position to win the game, because he has all of the guys around him. I think this is what is happening with Tony romo aswell, Pro bowl talent all around him on offense, It is hard for a decent qb to not succeed in that situation.
Now look at Big Ben and the steelers offense. Many consider him to be an very good qb, He has good targets at wr, but the Offensive line is so bad The offense is 5th to last in the NFL because he never has time to do anything with the ball. A good line makes a Solid qb look great and a great qb look elite. Brady and Manning are great qbs, but without the great protection of their lines over the years, They would not have nearly as much success. And this year, Manning's line has struggled with injurys and whatnot, and it has been his and the team's worst year in recent memory.

The supporting cast, and the Line especially are what make an offense and the qb look good. Until you have those pieces, Drafting a qb high doesnt make sense.

Great Post i agree with all of that...

illmatic74
11-14-2008, 12:18 AM
I'm really starting to think that 'elite' Qbs are unnecessary for a team's success. All you need is a good line, good rbs, solid recievers and then a adequate qb and the offense succeed. Look at the patriots this year without brady, Cassel took a while to get used to it but now it is clicking he is playing well, and puting his team in a position to win the game, because he has all of the guys around him. I think this is what is happening with Tony romo aswell, Pro bowl talent all around him on offense, It is hard for a decent qb to not succeed in that situation.
Now look at Big Ben and the steelers offense. Many consider him to be an very good qb, He has good targets at wr, but the Offensive line is so bad The offense is 5th to last in the NFL because he never has time to do anything with the ball. A good line makes a Solid qb look great and a great qb look elite. Brady and Manning are great qbs, but without the great protection of their lines over the years, They would not have nearly as much success. And this year, Manning's line has struggled with injurys and whatnot, and it has been his and the team's worst year in recent memory.

The supporting cast, and the Line especially are what make an offense and the qb look good. Until you have those pieces, Drafting a qb high doesnt make sense.I will have to disagree with you there. Having a great passing game gives you the ability to win every year. Look at the Colts, Patriots, The Favre Packers. Having a great QB could completely change your team fortunes. If Peyton Manning wasn't drafted by the Colts they wouldn't be in Indianapolis anymore. The risk comes from the fact that picking the wrong QB could set your team back years. Look at the Chargers after they drafted Leaf.

steelersfan43
11-14-2008, 12:52 AM
I will have to disagree with you there. Having a great passing game gives you the ability to win every year. Look at the Colts, Patriots, The Favre Packers. Having a great QB could completely change your team fortunes. If Peyton Manning wasn't drafted by the Colts they wouldn't be in Indianapolis anymore. The risk comes from the fact that picking the wrong QB could set your team back years. Look at the Chargers after they drafted Leaf.
The passing game will be effective because of the productive running game, good pass protection, and solid wr targets. If you have a good line, your running game will be effective until the defense forces you to throw by stacking the box. As long as you have good pass protection your solid QB should be able to throw effectively on a defense that is stacking the run.

Joker_232
11-14-2008, 02:06 AM
The passing game will be effective because of the productive running game, good pass protection, and solid wr targets. If you have a good line, your running game will be effective until the defense forces you to throw by stacking the box. As long as you have good pass protection your solid QB should be able to throw effectively on a defense that is stacking the run.

WORD! id give ya some rep but i dont have much to give lol

LonghornsLegend
11-14-2008, 10:36 AM
I will have to disagree with you there. Having a great passing game gives you the ability to win every year. Look at the Colts, Patriots, The Favre Packers. Having a great QB could completely change your team fortunes. If Peyton Manning wasn't drafted by the Colts they wouldn't be in Indianapolis anymore. The risk comes from the fact that picking the wrong QB could set your team back years. Look at the Chargers after they drafted Leaf.

The Chargers ended up with LT out of the deal who is a Hall of Famer so I don't think they can be too upset with how things panned out...And they came across two great QB's since the Manning/Leaf draft, of course not everyone is that lucky but Leaf being a bust gave them a high enough pick to take LT.

illmatic74
11-14-2008, 11:42 AM
The passing game will be effective because of the productive running game, good pass protection, and solid wr targets. If you have a good line, your running game will be effective until the defense forces you to throw by stacking the box. As long as you have good pass protection your solid QB should be able to throw effectively on a defense that is stacking the run.It is more important to have a passing game. I give you 2 examples. The 2006 Colts http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2006.htm they gave up 5.3 ypc and a total of 2768 rushing yards for the season yet still made the playoffs because of their great passing game. The 2007 Vikings http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2007.htm they were best in the league at running the ball and stopping the run but missed the playoffs because of inconsistent QB play.

Joker_232
11-14-2008, 12:58 PM
It is more important to have a passing game. I give you 2 examples. The 2006 Colts http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2006.htm they gave up 5.3 ypc and a total of 2768 rushing yards for the season yet still made the playoffs because of their great passing game. The 2007 Vikings http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2007.htm they were best in the league at running the ball and stopping the run but missed the playoffs because of inconsistent QB play.

didnt ever notice that, but idk if i agree with it...

Mr. Stiller
11-14-2008, 02:55 PM
i dont believe theyre immediate nfl starters.

For the teams picking in the top 10, they would likely be immediate Starters.



i know for a fact if eiher went to the steelers, theyd be on the bench 3 years.

At most 1.5-2 years ... but at the same time we also have quite possibly the most mentally challenging scheme to comprehend in the league. And I Could see Jenkins as a NB His rookie season and pushing for the #2 spot as a 2nd year player. Maualuga/Laurinaitis... Little Animal doesn't fit a 3-4 and Rey, well, I don't know how well he'd grasp the scheme, and Farrior just re-signed for 5 years, then we have Timmons, Fox and Foote who all look like very capable players.

Using the Steelers as your example is quite asinine because they normally sit most rookies on defense a year. If Woodley hadn't been injured part of last year, he would have been starting over Haggans though.


you can find malcolm jenkins or maaluga or laurinitis anywhere.

No you can't and stop spouting garbage. If you could find them "Anywhere" then they wouldn't be such highly touted prospects.

you cant find dudes who have potential top end nfl qb physicla traits. there arent many of them.you always always always myst roll the dice on a qb.

No Crap. If you're team lacks a Franchise QB, you go for the QB first, but the fact remains if you have one or there is no QB available.. you take whats best. With this senior class, do you roll the dice on Hunter Cantwell/Aaron Kelly or do you take a player who's way superior at his position? Thats a rhetorical question cause I Know you'll answer it wrong.

the potential dividends far outweigh the worst case scenario. no other player will make the impact if they pan out. its the position where championships and consistent winning are born. thou shalt not pass ever. thout may trade down as long as they still get the qb. thout shall not pick wrs and lbs when qbs are out there that have the traits

There are guys who have the look of Franchise QB's... What about Brady Quinn. You mean to tell me that 20 or so franchises didn't think he was worth the pick? But someone in the top 5 or so should've "Rolled the dice"?

The fact is, it's backwards logic to take an inferior QB who could be "a Franchise QB" which in itself is a wide open comment because how many Franchise QB's are there? Brady, Manning^2, Roethlisberger, Brees, McNabb, Romo, Rivers, Cutler...? Who else is there?

The look back at the drafts... Alex Smith, Aaron Rodgers, Vince Young, Matt Leinart... Should Houston have taken Mario Williams over Vince Young/Matt Leinart? I would say yes. Williams is a once in a decade player. Vince/Matt didn't show enough to be exceptional at the position. Both the Titans and Cards rolled the dice. Both are now using "Over the hill" QB's to run their offenses.

And Lastly, Value of Player vs. Player should happen on an individual perspective. You absolutely can not say "All MLB's can be found anywhere". It's not true. You have to look at the ability of the player... judge that vs. his challengers for the draft stock. You don't, you make blanket statements further proving everytime that your understanding of the draft is so faulty it's comical.




Ugh, ..................

Mr. Stiller
11-14-2008, 02:59 PM
Pittsburgh has:

Colon, Kemoeatu, Simmons, Stapleton, Parquet, Legursky As Guards...

We have... Tony Hills as the only OT under contract next year..

OT/CB/DE should be our order in round 1.

steelersfan43
11-14-2008, 05:38 PM
It is more important to have a passing game. I give you 2 examples. The 2006 Colts http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2006.htm they gave up 5.3 ypc and a total of 2768 rushing yards for the season yet still made the playoffs because of their great passing game. The 2007 Vikings http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/2007.htm they were best in the league at running the ball and stopping the run but missed the playoffs because of inconsistent QB play.

I said a solid qb. Tavaris Jackson is and was a very very bad quarterback and on top of that he didnt have anyone to throw to. There passing game was terrible even when defenses were completely focused on stoping adrian peterson and forcing them to pass. If the vikings had a decent quarterback they would have had a lot more success.

As for peyton manning, he was a great qb, with great pass blocking and great recievers. That offense is built around having a great qb and it is going to put up points. Im saying you dont need to have a 'great' qb to have success on offense. showing an example of a team with a great qb succeeding does nothing to disprove my argument.

STARHEATHER
11-15-2008, 12:18 AM
history says otherwise on the qbs. especially recent history. hasnt been a scrub win it since brad johnson at that position. i wonder if you looked at the winning percentage of teams and defensive ranks of teams on which nate clements plays and then tell me hes a player whos elevating teams to an elite level. if youre going to be a top 5 corner for me. you better be a champ bailey clone.you better be the next best prospect ever at the position. and even having champ bailey on your team doesnt guarantee much winning. if he runs a tenth slower than bailey, around 4.36 combine time he might be worthy of a pick similay to drc or talib. i dont think so though. if he chooses to show up at the combine which he probably wont. you want to use a late rd 1 on malcolm jenkins im ok with that although i wouldnt. there are going to be about 6 tackles some qbs. i just really dont see how hes going to be that good. and even if he is, it doesnt mean youre going to get close see nate clements

steelersfan43
11-15-2008, 12:58 AM
history says otherwise on the qbs. especially recent history. hasnt been a scrub win it since brad johnson at that position. i wonder if you looked at the winning percentage of teams and defensive ranks of teams on which nate clements plays and then tell me hes a player whos elevating teams to an elite level. if youre going to be a top 5 corner for me. you better be a champ bailey clone.you better be the next best prospect ever at the position. and even having champ bailey on your team doesnt guarantee much winning. if he runs a tenth slower than bailey, around 4.36 combine time he might be worthy of a pick similay to drc or talib. i dont think so though. if he chooses to show up at the combine which he probably wont. you want to use a late rd 1 on malcolm jenkins im ok with that although i wouldnt. there are going to be about 6 tackles some qbs. i just really dont see how hes going to be that good. and even if he is, it doesnt mean youre going to get close see nate clements

I am not talking about scrub qbs!!!! Can you people read?
Im talking Tono Romo type guys that are solid, but you have a great supporting cast so it makes him look like a great qb. Im talking about guys that the media and everyone think are great but they are really a product of the talent around them.

CashmoneyDrew
11-15-2008, 11:32 AM
I am not talking about scrub qbs!!!! Can you people read?
Im talking Tono Romo type guys that are solid, but you have a great supporting cast so it makes him look like a great qb. Im talking about guys that the media and everyone think are great but they are really a product of the talent around them.

I don't think Tony Romo is an Elite QB, but he is very very good and pretty close to the category. To say he is a product of what's around him is stealing credit away from him. You have seen how badly that entire offense has sputtered without him playing right?

steelersfan43
11-15-2008, 08:12 PM
I don't think Tony Romo is an Elite QB, but he is very very good and pretty close to the category. To say he is a product of what's around him is stealing credit away from him. You have seen how badly that entire offense has sputtered without him playing right?
Brad Johnson is absolutely terrible and hasnt played in a long time. Obviously the offense is going to suck without him because they dont have anyone halfway decent besides him.

STARHEATHER
11-16-2008, 10:54 AM
malcolm jenkins got burned 3 times that i saw in about 1/2 the game i saw vs illinois. in the nfl those are tds. i just dont know how you can even consider him a top 5 pick. also maaluga missed 4 tackles in the first half, including on e where he flailed at the qb on a 40 yd run. he laso missed a tackle on a 3rd and 1 when he came unblocked against toby gearhart and missed. they got gouged for 150 yds rushing in the first half. hes suh an awful football player. laurinitis was getting run over and blocked out ofplays as well. i do think maaluga did notch his first sack of the year on a play where the qb ran around for 10 seconds. these dudes are myths. theyre not top 10 picks or first day picks. theyre late rd talents if any talents at all

Flyboy
11-17-2008, 12:38 AM
A TTU player taken in the top 10? Craziness.

illmatic74
11-17-2008, 06:49 PM
malcolm jenkins got burned 3 times that i saw in about 1/2 the game i saw vs illinois. in the nfl those are tds. i just dont know how you can even consider him a top 5 pick. also maaluga missed 4 tackles in the first half, including on e where he flailed at the qb on a 40 yd run. he laso missed a tackle on a 3rd and 1 when he came unblocked against toby gearhart and missed. they got gouged for 150 yds rushing in the first half. hes suh an awful football player. laurinitis was getting run over and blocked out ofplays as well. i do think maaluga did notch his first sack of the year on a play where the qb ran around for 10 seconds. these dudes are myths. theyre not top 10 picks or first day picks. theyre late rd talents if any talents at allWhen they are competing for defensive player of the year next year I will remember this post.

STARHEATHER
11-17-2008, 07:06 PM
im sure you dont really mean defensive POY in the nfl. for real. laurinitis, maaluga jenkins. nfl defensive POY. next year. i really dont even know how to respond to that. do ya really think?

illmatic74
11-17-2008, 07:09 PM
im sure you dont really mean defensive POY in the nfl. for real. laurinitis, maaluga jenkins. nfl defensive POY. next year. i really dont even know how to respond to that. do ya really think?I meant defensive rookie of the year my bad.

Zyro_1014
11-17-2008, 07:10 PM
im sure you dont really mean defensive POY in the nfl. for real. laurinitis, maaluga jenkins. nfl defensive POY. next year. i really dont even know how to respond to that. do ya really think?

im pretty sure he meant DROY

STARHEATHER
11-17-2008, 07:24 PM
do ya really think? i dont think. i think theyll be lucky to see the field unless they go to kansas city or st louis. i dont miss too much on these. i was the one who called bust on dorsey, long, ellis, rivers, mcfadden. the only one. by the time workouts are over these guys will be in dan connerland anyway. i remember oh not so long ago dc was a top 10 pick too. then they actually got the tape and he worked out and that was just the end of those pipe dreams. i project the same for rey rey and lauirinitis.

illmatic74
11-17-2008, 07:37 PM
do ya really think? i dont think. i think theyll be lucky to see the field unless they go to kansas city or st louis. i dont miss too much on these. i was the one who called bust on dorsey, long, ellis, rivers, mcfadden. the only one. by the time workouts are over these guys will be in dan connerland anyway. i remember oh not so long ago dc was a top 10 pick too. then they actually got the tape and he worked out and that was just the end of those pipe dreams. i project the same for rey rey and lauirinitis.Sedrick Ellis and Chris Long have been two of the best defensive rookies and McFadden is averaging 5.1 ypc.

STARHEATHER
11-17-2008, 07:49 PM
i think you need to look at the defensive rankings. i think you need to double check and tell me theyve been good. ellis already has the injury bug and before that was getting steamrolled. long has been losing snaps, ahsnt been getting to the qb, and is getting killed in the run game along with giving up 35 and 28 points respectively in the first half of the last two games. take away a timely visit to glenn dorsey and mcfadden is averaging sub 3 ypc and has missed 3 games, came back with 3 carries for 13 yds this past week. they are all stalwarts on the worst defensive teams in in the nfl. and they will all be picking back up in about their same positions or higher this year. those teams didnt help their teams by drafting these guys n ot one bit. they got worse. youre seeing drc starting for a 7-3 team. joe flacco, ryan, stewart 8-2, clady is playing great. mayo, otah, these guys are playing and winning. these teams that picked in the top 5 last year except the ones that picked a tackle or a qb are going backwards. rivers got his career ended by a wr and they were 0-6 aqnd poor defensively before his career was ended. theres a lot of guys drafted this year that are helping their teams win. mcfadden, dorsey, ellis, long, rivers arent. in fact they are integral parts of them being worse than last year

Zyro_1014
11-17-2008, 08:38 PM
do ya really think? i dont think. i think theyll be lucky to see the field unless they go to kansas city or st louis. i dont miss too much on these. i was the one who called bust on dorsey, long, ellis, rivers, mcfadden. the only one. by the time workouts are over these guys will be in dan connerland anyway. i remember oh not so long ago dc was a top 10 pick too. then they actually got the tape and he worked out and that was just the end of those pipe dreams. i project the same for rey rey and lauirinitis.

youre calling them busts half way through their rookie seasons?

most of the times rookies do not produce that well their first year in the league, it takes them a year or two to get used to the speed and the difference of styles of the Pro game, so to call them busts is a joke to be honest...

STARHEATHER
11-17-2008, 08:52 PM
i called them busts long before that

Zyro_1014
11-17-2008, 08:59 PM
i called them busts long before that

yeah but the way you said it, you said they ARE busts. they havent played even close to long enough to be labeled busts yet.

STARHEATHER
11-17-2008, 09:08 PM
because they are. just like bradford maaluga and laurinitis and wells and crabtree if high picks are used on them. there you just got the pleasure of 5 busts straight from the mythbusta.

illmatic74
11-17-2008, 09:13 PM
because they are. just like bradford maaluga and laurinitis and wells and crabtree if high picks are used on them. there you just got the pleasure of 5 busts straight from the mythbusta.I gurantee atleast 3 of them will be pro bowlers.

STARHEATHER
11-17-2008, 09:16 PM
i bet you thought glenn dorsey would be too.

illmatic74
11-17-2008, 09:19 PM
i bet you thought glenn dorsey would be too.I still think he will.

STARHEATHER
11-17-2008, 09:26 PM
can you really get that much better. im not one who believes in the light coming on one day. you either have it or not. not for dorsey, or maaluga, or wells, or laurinitis

Mr. Stiller
11-17-2008, 09:27 PM
can you really get that much better. im not one who believes in the light coming on one day. you either have it or not. not for dorsey, or maaluga, or wells, or laurinitis

Or Starheather..

Zyro_1014
11-17-2008, 09:49 PM
Or Starheather..

whoo hoo! agreed!

STARHEATHER
11-18-2008, 07:11 PM
better to be feared than loved.

CLong4Heisman
11-18-2008, 07:56 PM
Better to be smart than a complete idiot like you.

JT Jag
11-18-2008, 08:02 PM
Linebacker is really the *last* of the Jaguars' needs right now.

The Jaguars need to draft in the trenches. Offensive and defensive linemen, from round 1 to 7.

Throw in a corner and maybe a runningback in there from the mid-rounds and you're set.

illmatic74
11-18-2008, 08:04 PM
Linebacker is really the *last* of the Jaguars' needs right now.

The Jaguars need to draft in the trenches. Offensive and defensive linemen, from round 1 to 7.

Throw in a corner and maybe a runningback in there from the mid-rounds and you're set.They have to atleast consider LB since they just benched their team captain who plays inside.