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NY+Giants=NYG
11-11-2008, 02:00 PM
This for people who are interested in more than just stats. I know one member Pmed me to help him understand some stuff so perhaps there are others who want to learn more about the game. Ideally a Xs and Os section is ideally the best way to do this.

*** Ork Wang, Here is the overall thing you want to use as reference. Different teams draw it up differently but this is an easy one to remember, so I always base my terminology to this and than covert it if need be.

That's step one before we address the various fronts in a 4-3 and 3-4 defense.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/Minion6990/did.jpg

Gay Ork Wang
11-11-2008, 02:09 PM
What is the difference between outside shades and heads up?
any difference between 7 and 6 or 2 and 3?
whats the difference between 2 and 2i? is 2i more inside closer to the a gap?

+rep

giantsfan
11-11-2008, 02:11 PM
What is the difference between outside shades and heads up?
any difference between 7 and 6 or 2 and 3?
whats the difference between 2 and 2i?

+rep

outside shade you'll lineup on the outside shoulder of your opposing lineman, heads up you'll line up directly parallel to him head to head. that's the difference between 7 and 6, 7 is on the outside shoulder of the TE, 6 would be heads up on the TE and 6i would be on the Inside shoulder of the TE

NY+Giants=NYG
11-11-2008, 02:25 PM
Yup exactly what the guy above said. You have to remember defenses just don't run fronts for the fun of it. Fronts, blitzes, stunts and coverages are all related. So that's why you scout out the fronts. Usually if a blitz or stunt it coming, especially in college and in HS there is an adjustment to the front.

One example is I am breaking down film for a HS playoff game coming up. So I saw on tape that the defense has a 5, 3, 1, 5 technique across the board when given a 2 X 2 shotgun formation. The formation was Shotgun right- Double Slot. Now when they zone blitzed the LE was at a 4i instead of a 5, which allowed room for the Backer to blitz. So small changes at that level help key what the defense is doing.

In the NFL, it's the same but they have can run many, many, blitzes from 1 look. The key is doing many things out of 1 look, to confuse offenses. Now the offense will counter that via scheming. That's my side of the ball. So you base your pass protection and QB drop based on what you want to do to counter the defense.

bored of education
11-11-2008, 02:29 PM
Since when is John Madden a registered user?

NY+Giants=NYG
11-11-2008, 02:32 PM
Since when is John Madden a registered user?

You don't have to be Madden to want to learn more about the game.

bored of education
11-11-2008, 02:33 PM
I was joking man. Thanks for the thread quite informative!

NY+Giants=NYG
11-11-2008, 02:44 PM
*** ork wang,

Now what like I pmed you, there are about 20 give or take a few 4-3 fronts. Those are all textbook fronts and from there DC's have the luxury of tagging each individual player. So like I said the 4-3 front is:


40, 00, 40
6i, 2i, 2i, 6i

That's going from the offenses right to left. So RE to LE, Will to SAM.


So now DCs can gameplan by adjusting one chess piece rather then changing the whole front. So for example, the call might be 4-3 SAM Hip.

So the SAM backer has a different tag. So the SAM can be at a 70 or 80, depending on what the DC defines the tag to be. There are many tags a DC can use.

HIP
Alley
Box
Skin
OX

Whatever he wants to name it, he will...

So now you add versatility to the DL and LBs because they have to be together in their movements to keep the intergrity of the defense together.
You can also tag other positions. That's where the "box" term came in. That's usually a safety tag.

So 4-3 SAM HIP, $ Box.

So now you have two custom tags. That defense now is reading run first, which means you usually will have 1 high safety. If it's man, it's C1, if it's zone it could be C3.

Also, this is one big thing fans generalize. I've talked to coaches who attended Pro coaches lectures, and they define the Box as a 4 X 1 zone. So 4 yards deep, with 1 yard from the tackle to tackle. That's the box. So usually fans come up with crazy stuff like 9 men in the box, when in reality it's not true. The Lbs at 5 or 6 yards are not in the box per say. What the fan means is that they are thinking run first, but the box is 4 X1, with players on the edge so if it's a run, then the defenders can react quicker.

giantsfan
11-11-2008, 02:45 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1z03b1wveM

awfullyquiet
11-11-2008, 02:49 PM
You don't have to be Madden to want to learn more about the game.

Boom! Check out my Tour Bus!

tjsunstein
11-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Good post man. Useful stuff to many here. It goes beyond the stats like you said.

fenikz
11-11-2008, 02:52 PM
Boom! Check out my Tour Bus!

pff and i came inhere thinking aq was talking football strategy

Gay Ork Wang
11-11-2008, 05:04 PM
I need moar!

Rayray52
11-11-2008, 05:31 PM
This dosent help my fantasy football team!

tjsunstein
11-11-2008, 05:34 PM
So what's next? Zone Blocking? I'm trying to think of something I could use some more elaboration on.

Burns336
11-11-2008, 05:36 PM
Wish there were more threads like this.

I really want a "coaches understanding" of some of the fundamentals.

tjsunstein
11-11-2008, 05:47 PM
Most of the stuff you have to see to actually understand. Words will just confuse you when learning stuff like this. Well, I would be confused.

Rep and Posts are the same: Weird.

jballa838
11-11-2008, 05:51 PM
I really have been in a flexbone happy mood recently. for those who don't know this is the flexbone.
http://flexboneassociation.com/playbook/32Veer.jpg
This is what Georgia Tech runs. And Navy/Army/Air Force. Nebraska won those National Championships in the 90's running this. Origins go back to the 60's and the "Four Horsemen" at Notre Dame. This is basic veer and it is a staple of the offense. here are some of the Pro's and Con's of the Flexbone:
Sample playbook:
http://flexboneassociation.com/playbook/playbook.htm

Pros:
-Makes Defense play every gap.
-Almost everything out of same look.
-Downhill.
-Ball Control
-Clock Control

Cons:
-Little Misdirection.
-Useless passing game.
-Not meant to overpower the defense every play, but wear them down.
-Only great when ahead or tied. Hard to come back with this offense because it isn't a big play offense.
-Hard to get speed in space.

Any Questions, feedback, etc would be appreciated.

thule
11-11-2008, 06:00 PM
I also made a thread similar to this based on the Wade Phillips 46 defense..with some of the ties to Buddy Ryan...feel free to take a look and comment there or here about it.

Phillips 46 (http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14537)

Ravens1991
11-11-2008, 06:07 PM
I am not a big fan of the 46, I think it is best as a situational defense.


Also how would anyone think a spread offense would work in the NFL? I think it would do alright if you have 2 nice WR and a 3 down back who could catch. I would base it on short to intermediate passes, having 4 WR would lower the LB on the field so it would give your RB the opportunity to run. If you blitz you could have the RB pick it up and have a slot WR run a slant. And if they have LB to stop the run you could get 1 on 1 coverage w/ your WRs. Do you think it will be used more often in the NFL? I was talking to my friend today and he thinks it will.

tjsunstein
11-11-2008, 06:13 PM
I love the Flexbone, all my high school ran. When it gets to college is when it is the most effective because they recruit athletes and dont really put an ideal size on players like the NFL. I wish it was ran in the NFL every now and then but no one has the personnel. It's slightly more complicated than 'Wildcat.'

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 06:19 PM
I love the Flexbone, all my high school ran. When it gets to college is when it is the most effective because they recruit athletes and dont really put an ideal size on players like the NFL. I wish it was ran in the NFL every now and then but no one has the personnel. It's slightly more complicated than 'Wildcat.'

Its not going to be as simple as that because every defensive linemen will simply move with the motion of the play, giving little room for the fullback if its give and then there's a DE that could as well murder your QB (I certainly wouldn't want Troy Smith optioning Julius Peppers)

Its somewhat similar to the Midline, just that I like midlines better:

http://photos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v241/97/39/1201174941/n1201174941_30035468_3040.jpg

illmatic74
11-11-2008, 06:51 PM
http://www.davesez.com/archives/000904.php Good read for zoneblocking. I ran a zone blocking offense in high school. Since I don't feel like explaining it you could just look at this site.

thule
11-11-2008, 06:54 PM
I am not a big fan of the 46, I think it is best as a situational defense.


Also how would anyone think a spread offense would work in the NFL? I think it would do alright if you have 2 nice WR and a 3 down back who could catch. I would base it on short to intermediate passes, having 4 WR would lower the LB on the field so it would give your RB the opportunity to run. If you blitz you could have the RB pick it up and have a slot WR run a slant. And if they have LB to stop the run you could get 1 on 1 coverage w/ your WRs. Do you think it will be used more often in the NFL? I was talking to my friend today and he thinks it will.

I just think the true 46 died because teams just can't acquire the talent it takes to run it since the salary cap has been in place. Two man corners that can be left on islands...with a deep ballhawk safety...and two elite rushers....teams just can't acquire/afford that on the defensive side of the ball to run it anymore.

CC.SD
11-11-2008, 07:10 PM
I love the Flexbone, all my high school ran. When it gets to college is when it is the most effective because they recruit athletes and dont really put an ideal size on players like the NFL. I wish it was ran in the NFL every now and then but no one has the personnel. It's slightly more complicated than 'Wildcat.'

My high school ran the Wing T with a pair of 190 pound, speedy guards flying out to the edge every play. I played defense and believe me it's pretty funny to watch when it's rolling.

tjsunstein
11-11-2008, 07:39 PM
Its not going to be as simple as that because every defensive linemen will simply move with the motion of the play, giving little room for the fullback if its give and then there's a DE that could as well murder your QB (I certainly wouldn't want Troy Smith optioning Julius Peppers)



That's true Xon. The thing is though that if it was ran in the NFL one time I think it would get about 7 yards the first try and then forever be cursed just because of it being spontaneous. In high school, size is key. College, speed is key. NFL, if I had to guess, intelligence is key. This only applies to flexbone.

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 08:24 PM
My high school ran the Wing T with a pair of 190 pound, speedy guards flying out to the edge every play. I played defense and believe me it's pretty funny to watch when it's rolling.

I LOVE Wing-T. I played it all my life and now as a coach I run it.

I got: Bucksweep, Trap, Waggle, Midline, Sally, Belly, Fake Belly Pass, Triple Option, RocketSweep, Jet Sweep, Counter trap, Dives, wedges, Criss Cross.... the 400 and 600 (shotgun) packages.... it simply pwns

CJSchneider
11-11-2008, 08:56 PM
Great 1st post Shockey. I've been working on a 4-4 "Stack" D for my middle schoolers next year and from what you posted, well... did I leave my playbook in your office?

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 09:14 PM
Great 1st post Shockey. I've been working on a 4-4 "Stack" D for my middle schoolers next year and from what you posted, well... did I leave my playbook in your office?

Why does everyone have the same avy??

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 09:17 PM
Also, thought I'd ask for help. I will be the defensive coordinator for this Flag football league for kids from ages 8 - 12. The rules are VERY different. There can be up to 8 people in the LOS but the minimum is 7. And everyone on the field is elegible... tackles, guards and centers. Help me with some sort of ideas for a scheme. I'm thinking of some sort of Tampa two with certain adjustments of course.

CJSchneider
11-11-2008, 09:23 PM
If I'm the DC against 8 year olds, flood the LOS. Make them beat you with the pass and jam the run.

Cyber-coach (http://www.cyber-shack.net/cybercoach/htm/PDF/cc_D_5301.pdf)

Here are your most basic 5-3 sets. If nothing else it's a start.

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 09:32 PM
If I'm the DC against 8 year olds, flood the LOS. Make them beat you with the pass and jam the run.

Cyber-coach (http://www.cyber-shack.net/cybercoach/htm/PDF/cc_D_5301.pdf)

Here are your most basic 5-3 sets. If nothing else it's a start.

I know of the 5-3 defense, we ran it with our 10-12 year olds. The problem with really staking the line is that there's 12 year olders that CAN throw the football. I hadn't thought of the 5-3 for flag though, gives me some ideas, thanks.

CJSchneider
11-11-2008, 09:38 PM
Here is why I said that. I can guarantee you there is some coach thinking up how he can hide a receiver type kid on the line and run "bread and butter" crap all day long, which is fine. You stack the line and shut that play down a few times, by sending 5 kids after the QB and assigning a MLB spy - that coach is going to resort to 25 dives and trying to go deep.

locseti
11-11-2008, 09:44 PM
My high school ran the Wing T with a pair of 190 pound, speedy guards flying out to the edge every play. I played defense and believe me it's pretty funny to watch when it's rolling.

We ran the double wing in high school, is that similar/the same as wing t? We had two TE's two RB's on opposite edges of the line and a FB behind the QB. It was very effective but I hated it because it was so boring and predictable. Every time you saw the 2 or 4 back go in motion you knew where the play was going. But watch out for that reverse, it worked like a charm sometimes. Passed maybe 5 times a game, if that. I think if I was coaching HS now I'd install some form of the spread if I had a QB that was capable enough. Here is the formation with the same freaking play we always ran.

http://www.fbforyouth.com/Resources/tossvs52.jpeg

Xonraider
11-11-2008, 09:55 PM
We ran the double wing in high school, is that similar/the same as wing t? We had two TE's two RB's on opposite edges of the line and a FB behind the QB. It was very effective but I hated it because it was so boring and predictable. Every time you saw the 2 or 4 back go in motion you knew where the play was going. But watch out for that reverse, it worked like a charm sometimes. Passed maybe 5 times a game, if that. I think if I was coaching HS now I'd install some form of the spread if I had a QB that was capable enough. Here is the formation with the same freaking play we always ran.

http://www.fbforyouth.com/Resources/tossvs52.jpeg

Crazy play. We use it too as a variation to our Wing-T. We call it super power:


http://photos-d.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sf2p/v336/170/110/14903216/n14903216_31009947_7231.jpg

CJSchneider
11-11-2008, 09:56 PM
I love the double-wing!!!!

NY+Giants=NYG
11-12-2008, 09:22 AM
Well he wanted to know about defense, so he PMed me. So I am going to start with that, and then move to offense, which is my side of the ball.

So that's the DL. I am going to list of the 4-3 fronts now played in the NFL. So when you hear fans talk about how to stop the run or something. Not always do you need to "stack the box". Instead you can just change your front OR run the same front but tag certain players to line up in different places.

Here is a list of existing 4-3 fronts.

4-3
4-3 Under
4-3 Over
4-3 Wide
4-3 Under Wide
4-3 Swim
4-3 Over Swim
4-3 Wink4-3 Under Swim
4-3 Sink
4-3 Over Sink
4-3 Under Win
4-3 Over Sim
4-3 Stack
4-3 Stack Wide
4-3 Stack Switch
4-3 Cub
4-3 Over Cub
4-3 Bear
4-3 Over Bear


Now these above are most of the 4-3 fronts I know of, and teams can tag players accordingly.

Gay Ork Wang
11-12-2008, 09:24 AM
What do most of them mean? like Sink or Swim

thule
11-12-2008, 09:31 AM
I would assume anything that starts with a S goes for Strong side
And everything that starts with W = weak side....

Swim/Sink/Sim/Wink/Win

Over/Under/Stack/Bear
Those probably have to do with your backers...
Over = cheat strong side
Under = stack weakside
Stack = behind lineman
Bear = inbetween lineman

Those are my guesses...we'll see how smart/stupid I am

NY+Giants=NYG
11-12-2008, 09:37 AM
What do most of them mean? like Sink or Swim

Everything stems from the original 4-3



The original 4-3 techniques are

40 00 40

6i, 2i, 2i, 6i


4-3 Swim:

40i, 00, 30

5, 2i, 3, 7


So basically the WIll LB is moved inside one technique, while reducing the RE in as well. By reducing those guys in you are moving the RDT move from a 2i to a 3 and moving the LE over.

So in essence you are moving the DL over to the offenses's right, while reducing the LBs in one spot, which translate to 1 technique.



4-3 Sink:


You have 5 guys on the LOS.

00 40

70(WILL), 5, 2i, 3, 7



SO you can visually see that the line has 5 guys on it, and the mike backer is over the center at LB depth, while the SAM is still over at a 40. Now to compensate for this the LE is out wide more. This is an example where the LE is NOT in the box. The box is defined as 4 X 1 tackle to tackle with 1 yard to the right or left respectively. The LE is shaded to the right of the TE in this, so that means he is NOT in the box.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-12-2008, 09:41 AM
I would assume anything that starts with a S goes for Strong side
And everything that starts with W = weak side....

Swim/Sink/Sim/Wink/Win

Over/Under/Stack/Bear
Those probably have to do with your backers...
Over = cheat strong side
Under = stack weakside
Stack = behind lineman
Bear = inbetween lineman

Those are my guesses...we'll see how smart/stupid I am

Not always true, though in the ones he asked it was right. I don't know why they named the way they did, but alot of them are all mixed. Move the DTs over, and flex out out the DE or reduce it, and put the backer on the LOS. It all really depends.


Stack in HS means behind the DL, but in the NFL stack can mean doubling or "stacking" a particular gap. Doesn't have to be lined up directly behind a DL person. Also you stack because you are shielding your LBs from the OL's blocks. Teams do that against the giants OL because it makes them harder to chip off or directly block the 2nd level.

yourfavestoner
11-12-2008, 12:30 PM
I despise almost everything about the Wing-T and all its derivatives. We run the flexbone at my school. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

Actually I don't hate it quite as much as I'm letting on. My problem with it is that everything about our team says that we should be running the I. Our tackles are big and powerful, but far too slow to run a Wing based offense. We have two backs that would easily be 1000 yard rushers in the I. We've got a kid that would be a bruising fullback. All the pieces are there for the I, but our offensive coordinator only knows the Wing T, so that's what we're stuck with.

Gay Ork Wang
11-14-2008, 05:40 PM
Dont die!!!!

Brent
11-14-2008, 05:53 PM
I despise almost everything about the Wing-T and all its derivatives. We run the flexbone at my school. Hate it, hate it, hate it.

Actually I don't hate it quite as much as I'm letting on. My problem with it is that everything about our team says that we should be running the I. Our tackles are big and powerful, but far too slow to run a Wing based offense. We have two backs that would easily be 1000 yard rushers in the I. We've got a kid that would be a bruising fullback. All the pieces are there for the I, but our offensive coordinator only knows the Wing T, so that's what we're stuck with.
Is there anything that you can do about it?

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 05:57 PM
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/Minion6990/did.jpg

So is E gap wide of the TE then? I thought E gap was where you have D gap...

LonghornsLegend
11-14-2008, 06:52 PM
BBD schooled me about the 46 Defense, and Thule's thread had a great read on it, but to reiterate what he said it's tough to have that kind of personnel on a defense but if you have the capable players it would be a tough scheme to beat, but I guess you could argue that for any D though.

yourfavestoner
11-14-2008, 07:08 PM
Is there anything that you can do about it?

Not really. It's the offensive coordinators scheme. As an oline coach, it's just my job to teach his scheme to the linemen. He's doesn't know anything, really, besides the Wing-T.

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 07:28 PM
Not really. It's the offensive coordinators scheme. As an oline coach, it's just my job to teach his scheme to the linemen. He's doesn't know anything, really, besides the Wing-T.

It couldn't hurt to present some new ideas, could it? Is he the type that would take offense to that?

NY+Giants=NYG
11-14-2008, 08:27 PM
So is E gap wide of the TE then? I thought E gap was where you have D gap...

Nope that's D gap, after that it's outside or considered the "alley". Also, the "box" is 4 X1, so outside the TE is not considered in the box.

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 09:09 PM
Nope that's D gap, after that it's outside or considered the "alley". Also, the "box" is 4 X1, so outside the TE is not considered in the box.

Huh, I could've sworn I saw a different gap chart before, but that makes sense. Then again, maybe I confused gaps and techniques.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-14-2008, 10:04 PM
Huh, I could've sworn I saw a different gap chart before, but that makes sense. Then again, maybe I confused gaps and techniques.

You might have. This is from my playbook from my OC last season when I coached TEs. Some coaches may call it E gap. Though it would be left or right of the TE. Others define the techniques differently too. But normally it goes in order, A, B, C & D gap.

Center-Guard-Tackle-TE
.........A ......B.........C...D.....Alley

That make sense to you?

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 10:40 PM
You might have. This is from my playbook from my OC last season when I coached TEs. Some coaches may call it E gap. Though it would be left or right of the TE. Others define the techniques differently too. But normally it goes in order, A, B, C & D gap.

Center-Guard-Tackle-TE
.........A ......B.........C...D.....Alley

That make sense to you?

I understand gaps, I just could've sworn I've seen a different lettering system.

NY+Giants=NYG
11-15-2008, 10:07 AM
I understand gaps, I just could've sworn I've seen a different lettering system.

You have an E gap when you have two TEs to one side. Normally in a goal line formation. You would have that E gap, but if there is a normal formation like I pro right then E gap is the alley.

Gay Ork Wang
11-15-2008, 10:34 AM
If u look at what the Dline is doing, how can u see who is doing a good job/bad job

Dam8610
11-15-2008, 12:52 PM
You have an E gap when you have two TEs to one side. Normally in a goal line formation. You would have that E gap, but if there is a normal formation like I pro right then E gap is the alley.

So say a DE is playing a 7 technique and runs a loop, that's to the D gap?

NY+Giants=NYG
11-15-2008, 01:11 PM
So say a DE is playing a 7 technique and runs a loop, that's to the D gap?

No.. It depends how far the loop is as well. I've seen 7 T loop to B gap or even A gap at times. Let's assume it's I pro Right for the offensive's formation.


So the TE is to the right of the formation and the DE is shaded to the TE's outside shoulder ( right shoulder). So the DE is not in the box technically, and is in D gap. If DE loops he is hitting C gap and basically looping in the direction of weakside.


............DE
OO[]OOY
......ABC D

NY+Giants=NYG
11-15-2008, 01:16 PM
If u look at what the Dline is doing, how can u see who is doing a good job/bad job

Fans looks for technique but in reality you don't know what he is doing. Fans don't have the call, and don't have the DT's keys OR responsibilities in his SPECIFIC system for that given play that his DC has created. Fans don't know if the system is based on scraping or squeeze and spill.

That's comparable to fans saying, that WR ran the wrong route, or always runs the wrong route. That's fan talk because no fan has the WR manuel and thus can't read what the exact steps for the route are. The WR book is a pain in the butt to read, especially if the OC has implemented a pass oriented offense. I have the TE passing tree for the 2004 Broncos and the TE has something like 42 routes!! Each with specific steps and yardages to run. So when you hear fans toss around the statement of a skill player running the wrong route, it's usually they hard it from other fans to the point it's become a fact or they are just talking out of their butt.

Dam8610
11-15-2008, 03:05 PM
No.. It depends how far the loop is as well. I've seen 7 T loop to B gap or even A gap at times. Let's assume it's I pro Right for the offensive's formation.


So the TE is to the right of the formation and the DE is shaded to the TE's outside shoulder ( right shoulder). So the DE is not in the box technically, and is in D gap. If DE loops he is hitting C gap and basically looping in the direction of weakside.


............DE
OO[]OOY
......ABC D

Outside loop, not inside.

Gay Ork Wang
11-15-2008, 05:07 PM
Fans looks for technique but in reality you don't know what he is doing. Fans don't have the call, and don't have the DT's keys OR responsibilities in his SPECIFIC system for that given play that his DC has created. Fans don't know if the system is based on scraping or squeeze and spill.

That's comparable to fans saying, that WR ran the wrong route, or always runs the wrong route. That's fan talk because no fan has the WR manuel and thus can't read what the exact steps for the route are. The WR book is a pain in the butt to read, especially if the OC has implemented a pass oriented offense. I have the TE passing tree for the 2004 Broncos and the TE has something like 42 routes!! Each with specific steps and yardages to run. So when you hear fans toss around the statement of a skill player running the wrong route, it's usually they hard it from other fans to the point it's become a fact or they are just talking out of their butt.
So u can not read anything from their game?

NY+Giants=NYG
11-15-2008, 07:12 PM
So u can not read anything from their game?

Technique stuff and obvious stuff, like if he gets beat on the play. But that's like saying something like the team that has the lead when the game ends, wins. lol. So you can see basic stuff, but as far as his keys, and what he is supposed to do, only the person with knowledge of the play called would know for sure.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 10:23 AM
BBD,

Here is mesh

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/Minion6990/Coaching%20Concepts/mesh2.jpg

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 10:24 AM
It's easier to run it, especially since the redskins run alot of single high safety, ie Cover 3 and Cover 1.

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 10:25 AM
whats mesh?

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 10:29 AM
A passing concept where two skill players basically criss cross each other. You normally teach players to basically rub shoulders or some teach it that you should be able to high five the other player. Very popular passing concept used at ALL levels of football.

We ran it against the redskins last game with Steve Smith and Moss and had a good gain with it. Moss is so small and quick that he can get open, and since we drafted Moss I was waiting and waiting to see this concept with it. So I was happy to see us use it. I mentioned it to BBD, and he asked what it was, so I tried describing it but then realized I had this from my playbook that the OC gave me when I coached last year.

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
12-03-2008, 10:40 AM
Not really. It's the offensive coordinators scheme. As an oline coach, it's just my job to teach his scheme to the linemen. He's doesn't know anything, really, besides the Wing-T.

When running the Wing-T are you guys going with smaller, quicker linemen to give them a better opportunity to run block and pull?

Also how does runnning the Wing-T affect how your linemen are as pass blockers? Do you get adequate practice and game preparation to work on pass blocking?

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 10:41 AM
A passing concept where two skill players basically criss cross each other. You normally teach players to basically rub shoulders or some teach it that you should be able to high five the other player. Very popular passing concept used at ALL levels of football.

We ran it against the redskins last game with Steve Smith and Moss and had a good gain with it. Moss is so small and quick that he can get open, and since we drafted Moss I was waiting and waiting to see this concept with it. So I was happy to see us use it. I mentioned it to BBD, and he asked what it was, so I tried describing it but then realized I had this from my playbook that the OC gave me when I coached last year.
thanks. u wanna talk about the O alil bit :)

thule
12-03-2008, 10:48 AM
When running the Wing-T are you guys going with smaller, quicker linemen to give them a better opportunity to run block and pull?

Also how does runnning the Wing-T affect how your linemen are as pass blockers? Do you get adequate practice and game preparation to work on pass blocking?

The big reason to use the wing-t is to mash the inepitude of your Olineman. Runners are much more important to this scheme than your OL. But yes lateral movement of a lineman is important in this scheme...however you don't often see Tackles pull ...and due to them blocking down alot in this scheme bigger tackles might be ideal.

Pass blocking is something that is worked in. Since most pass plays out of the base formation require playaction anyways....it's basically a one step pop and sit technique atleast how I've ran in. Or 1 forward 2 back...w/e you wanna call it....we I'd say maybe 10 percent of what you do in practice would relate to pass blocking....and depending on your gameplan you could work it up from there...if you had a feeling you were going to need to pass because the team outmatched you.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 10:53 AM
thanks. u wanna talk about the O alil bit :)

Yup go ahead. What do you want to talk about?

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 10:54 AM
id think id start with blocking and techniques. what do u have to look for in blocking, man to man blocking first i guess

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 11:01 AM
id think id start with blocking and techniques. what do u have to look for in blocking, man to man blocking first i guess

Good stance, alittle wider than shoulder width apart. And then you want to establish the aiming point on the opposing DL player. Then you execute what block the play asks. That's the simple explaination, only because different coaches teach it differently. Then comes your footwork. You don't need to over power the DL player, you can have excellent techinque and skin the cat that way so to speak.

I had a bunch of drills I used with my TEs for run blocking, which I used but I mainly send them with my OL coach and watch them that way. Usually TE corps and OL guys work together during Indy period of practice. Then you usually have the DL corps, OL group, and TE group all go under the chute and practice that way.

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 11:02 AM
what are the most important techniques?

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 11:07 AM
1. Stance
2. Footwork
3. Aiming point


That applys to all the different types of blocks, from drive blocks, down blocks, trap, combo, and cutoff block.

Another thing experts watch is if the guy gets off the ball fast enough. Once the ball is snapped you have to get off the ball and execute the block your supposed to. An important element is sticking with your block. At the lower levels people get to their guy block him for 2 seconds and then let him go thinking they did what they are supposed to do, and meanwhile the play is not done and that guy gets back into the play and makes a tackle.

Happens in the pros too, but good OL units stick with their blocks. They are taught to lock on or fit, and drive him, until your hear the whistle.

Next time you watch a game focus on one OL guy and see how he run blocks. Does he stick to his guy or hit him and let him go after a second or two?

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 11:12 AM
could u kinda describe the most important part of all those blocks?

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 11:16 AM
could u kinda describe the most important part of all those blocks?

I would say footwork. You can have the right stance and aiming point, but if your footwork sucks the DL will either knock you on your butt because your initial step is too small, in terms of distance, or too large, and you will off balance.

Some coaches teach 6 inch step while others 8 inch. I normally go for 6 inch step forward for a drive block as an example. But it depends on the OL coach and how he teaches it.

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 11:19 AM
what is the difference between trap blocks and down blocks?

id guess a drive block is trying to drive him down field, combo blocks 2 guys and cutoff blocks at the knees?

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 11:29 AM
what is the difference between trap blocks and down blocks?

id guess a drive block is trying to drive him down field, combo blocks 2 guys and cutoff blocks at the knees?

Well drive block is a typical 1 on 1 block where the OL player drives the defender straight down the field. Combo block is a 2 on 1 block, and usually one of the OL guys chip off to the LB who normally is trying to fill the hole to stop the RB.

Cut off block is used to cut off usually backside pursuit. What you are thinking of is a cut block, where the aiming point is the thigh or waist, and you roll to knock the DL off their feet. I taught my TEs that if you have trouble blocking that DE and if he is about to make a play, legally cut him, and drop him, rather then him disengaging and making a play on the RB.

Alot of the service schools like army, navy, airforce do that. Because of height and weight disadvantage when playing D 1 schools they usually down block or cut the bigger guys.

Down block is if a center blocks a 3 technique. It's also called an angle block by some people too. Down is refered to blocking down a gap, while angle is refered to blocking at angle to get the defender.

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 11:32 AM
and whats a trap and down block?

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 11:43 AM
and whats a trap and down block?

Down block is if a center blocks a 3 technique. It's also called an angle block by some people too. Down is refered to blocking down a gap, while angle is refered to blocking at angle to get the defender.

Trap block is when you don't block a DT on purpose. Usually that guard blocks someone else or doubles or heads to the next level, while the backside linemen will pull and block the incoming DT. So basically you are setting a trap for him. Theory being if the guy is hard to move, then let him come, and block him at an angle. Sometimes a player sees daylight and will be focuses on hitting the RB that he won't see the backside linemen coming for a kill shot on him. So from there the RB can run through the hole vacated by the DT, and the guard would be blocking someone else.

Gay Ork Wang
12-03-2008, 11:53 AM
damn sorry i only read angle block

Xonraider
12-03-2008, 11:59 AM
to make it simply, GOW, a trap would be a 45 degree ''pull'' where the guard or maybe even tackle kicks out someone from the play, usually a DT or DE.

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-sf2p/v197/97/39/1201174941/n1201174941_30012370_460.jpg

the left guard is trapping

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 12:02 PM
Yup that's exactly what I am talking about.. Good picture. All my pics are of passing concepts, the running ones are easy for me so I don't have them.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-06-2009, 10:55 AM
With the NCAA championship coming up I am going to talk about the Urban Meyer offense, the spread option. One of the football blogs had this so in my own words I am going to explain the concept of this offense.

The offense is pretty simple it takes adv. of the # of people in the box with relation to the # of high safties you have. They normally line up in a shotgun with a 2 X 2 formation. Meaning 4 Wide, with 2 on either side, 2 X 2.

Now what Meyer's system entails is the Qb to see how many safties are back in the Box. Now we are all used to the Box which is 4 X 1 off the LOS. But there is another Box which Qbs look at and that's 12-16 ish down the field in the middle. That's the box which Qbs look at pre snap and post snap to gauge what coverage is being played.

So this is what happens. Tebow looks at his pre snap read and looks at the safties and sees how many are back there. If 2 safties are back there then you know 4 defenders are covering the 4 WRs. So that's 6 players taken care of. You have 4 more DL players which make it 10, and usually 1 LB. So in essence you are worrying about the 4 down linemen and 1 LB, which gives us 5 players. Everyone following?

So Tebow and Meyer at this point have an adv. They have 5 down linemen AND Tebow AND the RB. That's 7 people going against 5. Here is a diagram so people can see.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_1PiTuBhELbU/STYG2UGw9fI/AAAAAAAAAQc/3S565ldTBzE/s1600/2high.jpg



Another defensive alignment is a single high safety. That's means another defender is added to the "box" off the LOS. So what does that mean for Meyer and his system? You still have a numbers adv. but now you have 1 high safety, so you can assume the coverage will be C 1 or C 3. So that allows Meyer to run more of those coverage beaters with his 4 wide while taking adv of the single high safety and personnel matchups, such as Percy Harvin and his speed.

Here is the diagram of what this alignment looks like:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_1PiTuBhELbU/STYHeczrC4I/AAAAAAAAAQk/RfEez6vJqDI/s1600/1high.jpg


The final look a defense can give you is a ZERO high safety look, which is a Cover 0 look. All out blitz, or No blitz but pure man coverage ON everyone! At this point you have 7 guys playing run first or what fans called in the box, and 4 Cbs on the 4 WRs. At that point Meyer has a matchup adv. and can run all sorts of man coverage beaters to score. So two options can happen, either Tebow gets stopped via sack, or Florida scores on a big play. Here is a diagram of that.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_1PiTuBhELbU/STYH68XjI6I/AAAAAAAAAQs/BrQO14wKH4s/s1600/0high.jpg





Here are some of the stuff I know based on this system. I have Meyer's playbooks and ran his system which he had in Utah.

Now this is the system we ran for my team which I coached. We ran the system which Alex Smith ran for Utah. Usually the WR had tags just like any system. Alot of motion tags, such as move, return, shrink and home.

Home is a key tag because you can flex out a WR, and give him a "home" tag, and that allows that WR to come in the backfield. So you can either go with an empty set, or 2 X 2 set, then tag a Slot guy for instance "home" and now have 2 Backs in the backfield to run something.

Another way they would use this Home tag and have success is simply pick a side to run, and on the backside of the play don't block the backside DE. So now use that backside tackle and have him block to the second level, and be creative that way.

Overall the system is a great system, and is pretty simple. It takes adv. of numbers. Most defenses are traditional in the way they run coverages be it 1, 2, or 0 high safeties. So they just play a #s game. You give them a C2 shell look, and they will run it. If you give them a C1 or C3 shell look, basically 1 high safety, they will pass it and run coverage beaters. You can also get detailed and run C 1 beater one side and perhaps a C3 beater on the other.

So hope this helps. I will add to it later on as I go through his playbook. But look for this when you watch Florida. Watch how they tag their wrs. So key the defense's alignment and how many high safeties they have. Props to the blog for the main post and pics. Like I said I will add more to this from the stuff I have.

The Unseen
01-06-2009, 11:06 AM
I can't see your pics, Shockey, but a good post nonetheless.

bigbluedefense
01-06-2009, 11:07 AM
i love this thread.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-06-2009, 11:09 AM
I can't see your pics, Shockey, but a good post nonetheless.

Yeah i hit refresh and they went away..

Just think of it was 2 safties back there..

1 safety and the other safety comes into the "box" or close to it.

And the other pic had no high safeties meaning 2 more players added to the original 5. So 7 on 7 ...4 Cbs on 4 WRs.

It was basically a visual representation of the obvious.

Gay Ork Wang
01-06-2009, 12:01 PM
so how do u defeat that Spread offense?

giantsfan
01-06-2009, 12:15 PM
so how do u defeat that Spread offense?

BWTdbPjsBSs

Gay Ork Wang
01-06-2009, 12:16 PM
stfBPzmHm70
!fail
stfBPzmHm70

NY+Giants=NYG
01-06-2009, 12:18 PM
so how do u defeat that Spread offense?

Get pressure on the QB. Zone blitz, and try to get the QB rattled. The Pats last year ran a spread, vertical stretch offense, and you saw what happened in the superbowl.

But spread offense is such a broad term.

So many types of spread offenses have evolved.

Run N shoot

Fun N Gun

Air Raid

Spread Option

and so on.

It all depends on what the concepts are and how personnel is utilized.

neko4
01-06-2009, 09:26 PM
Get pressure on the QB. Zone blitz, and try to get the QB rattled. The Pats last year ran a spread, vertical stretch offense, and you saw what happened in the superbowl.

But spread offense is such a broad term.

So many types of spread offenses have evolved.

Run N shoot

Fun N Gun

Air Raid

Spread Option

and so on.

It all depends on what the concepts are and how personnel is utilized.

Hawaii-Georgia game is another great examle I think. Georgia's Dline was just tooo fast for Hawaii

tjsunstein
01-06-2009, 09:43 PM
On offense, how do you beat the Cover 2?

neko4
01-06-2009, 09:46 PM
On offense, how do you beat the Cover 2?

Passing routes in between the 2 safties

CJSchneider
01-06-2009, 09:49 PM
Three words - "Hit the seam"

That's my almost bed time short answer. I'll let Shockey write a dissertation on it, but he'll agree.

tjsunstein
01-06-2009, 10:00 PM
My guess is if you have enough time then to hit an outside reciever on a go route but other than that I'm not sure on any other way to beat it without a risky throw.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-06-2009, 10:21 PM
On offense, how do you beat the Cover 2?

Slants, slants, and more slants. And then a flag route.

How did I not know of this threads existence!?

Sniper
01-06-2009, 10:26 PM
On offense, how do you beat the Cover 2?

Post routes seem to work. Slants, drags, square ins etc...Attacking the seam with a go route from a TE or a RB could work too.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-06-2009, 11:01 PM
I don't know, it depends on how a team does the post route. In the Superbowl where Tampa drubbed Oakland, the Raiders got into trouble early by relying too heavily on their post routes and the Tampa safeties which were playing heads up had a day and a half. If the post is too deep, it's basically sending the wide receiver from the corner directly to a safety who, if he's worth anything, has the benefit of watching both the receiver coming his way and the quarterback. Skinny posts can work fairly well though.

If you have a guy who's fast enough and you can draw the safeties in enough, the flag route is the way to go.

GB12
01-06-2009, 11:04 PM
Not trying to sound like an ass by saying this, but don't you watch the Packers divisional games? We do the things PMD is talking about 6 times a year.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-06-2009, 11:10 PM
Not trying to sound like an ass by saying this, but don't you watch the Packers divisional games? We do the things PMD is talking about 6 times a year.

To be fair, the slant route has pretty much been a Green Bay staple since I started watching football. And McCarthy used it in San Francisco a good deal too. Honestly, if it's executed right, the short slant is really hard to defend without opening up major weaknesses in your defense. It essentially manages to both spread the linebackers and to draw the safeties up. It can set up so much against so many defenses.

neko4
01-06-2009, 11:15 PM
To be fair, the slant route has pretty much been a Green Bay staple since I started watching football. And McCarthy used it in San Francisco a good deal too. Honestly, if it's executed right, the short slant is really hard to defend without opening up major weaknesses in your defense. It essentially manages to both spread the linebackers and to draw the safeties up. It can set up so much against so many defenses.

It was basically our run game last year until Ryan Grant showed up.

GB12
01-06-2009, 11:26 PM
To be fair, the slant route has pretty much been a Green Bay staple since I started watching football. And McCarthy used it in San Francisco a good deal too. Honestly, if it's executed right, the short slant is really hard to defend without opening up major weaknesses in your defense. It essentially manages to both spread the linebackers and to draw the safeties up. It can set up so much against so many defenses.
I was more saying that I'm surprised a Packer fan hasn't heard this before. We play cover 2 teams a lot and there's usually talk about how to have success against in everyone of those games in which they bring up the slants. I'm just curious as to why he wouldn't have been informed of this, not that there's anything wrong with asking.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-06-2009, 11:48 PM
I was more saying that I'm surprised a Packer fan hasn't heard this before. We play cover 2 teams a lot and there's usually talk about how to have success against in everyone of those games in which they bring up the slants. I'm just curious as to why he wouldn't have been informed of this, not that there's anything wrong with asking.

Yeah, I just meant it would be hard to separate Green Bay's strategy against Cover 2 teams from their general offensive philosophy, because the two have been pretty similar.

Xonraider
01-07-2009, 12:29 AM
Slants, slants, and more slants. And then a flag route.

How did I not know of this threads existence!?

Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-07-2009, 01:07 AM
Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.

Where did I say that any slant beats a Cover 2? Nothing in football always beats anything. That's what makes football strategy awesome.

And you don't need a remarkably physical receiver, you just need someone who's clean through their breaks and can keep a corner's hands off them. But you need that with any short timing route you can think of.

Xonraider
01-07-2009, 01:19 AM
Where did I say that any slant beats a Cover 2? Nothing in football always beats anything. That's what makes football strategy awesome.

And you don't need a remarkably physical receiver, you just need someone who's clean through their breaks and can keep a corner's hands off them. But you need that with any short timing route you can think of.

Just making it clear.

And I can bet you if they tell me to block Julius Peppers he will beat me 100% of the time, so yeah, some things in football will always work :D

Paranoidmoonduck
01-07-2009, 01:21 AM
And I can bet you if they tell me to block Julius Peppers he will beat me 100% of the time, so yeah, some things in football will always work :D

You could always go for the knees...

:)

Gay Ork Wang
01-07-2009, 03:43 AM
I think draws and delays also work well because the MLB drops into coverage. At least it worked for the COlts in SB XLI

Paranoidmoonduck
01-07-2009, 03:50 AM
I think draws and delays also work well because the MLB drops into coverage. At least it worked for the COlts in SB XLI

Definitely. In fact, I've never been completely clear on how Cover 2 teams aren't much worse in run support. The linebacker's first steps are almost always backwards and the defensive line is usually less held to gap control. Sure, the linebackers have more time to read and react, but you figure that's a real "bend not break" attitude to run defense.

Gay Ork Wang
01-07-2009, 03:53 AM
i think the LBs reactions has to be really fast, might be the reason for the overpursues

djp
01-07-2009, 04:58 AM
I dunno if you guys have seen these, but GOW introduced me to one involving the Vikings today and I've been watching them all night.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0400b

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0400b

"anatomy of the play"

Gay Ork Wang
01-07-2009, 07:20 AM
i love anatomy of a play. i watch them every week, they really are great.

all the playbook segments really help

illmatic74
01-07-2009, 08:37 AM
i love anatomy of a play. i watch them every week, they really are great.

all the playbook segments really helpPlaybook is the best football show ever. The only one I watch.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 09:05 AM
Hawaii-Georgia game is another great examle I think. Georgia's Dline was just tooo fast for Hawaii

Yeah but I am not sure if Hawaii runs the true version of the run and shoot. If they do then I can see why Georgia beat them down. Usually in the Run and Shoot, traditionally speaking Wrs don't have routes. They run their routes based on the coverages.

ie. Cover 2 --- Square in, Vertical curl

ie. Cover 3 --- Post vertical curl

Zone- Find space and settle.


This could be the rules for just 1 play. So the adjustments are made post snap while watching the defense. So in theory, no defense can stop the Run and N shoot because the routes are adjusting off of YOUR defense. That was Kevin Gilbride's offense. Warren Moon was a QB in this style of offense if I remember correctly.

And so the Bulldogs had success because they got to the QB plain and simple and if you can disguise your coverages you may watch the WRs running wrong routes, or not running them well because they are taking too much time with their reads.

That's one staple difference between the Run N Shoot and Air Raid offense, which Texas Tech runs.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 09:10 AM
On offense, how do you beat the Cover 2?

Here are the cover 2 beaters I have and use. Cover 2 meaning Cover 2 zone, not Cover 2 man under, though alot of them would repeat.


You see offensive coaches and OCs organize passing concepts by what coverage they beat. So for game day I always keep my binder with me. They have Cover 0 ----- Hybrid coverage beaters on it.

Below is my C2 zone beaters. These are concepts, while others can be thought of in game planning too.

Smash
go-corner-post
Sail
PA in middle route ( skinny post, vertical with a hash landmark, and so on)
2 X 2- Post-Chair on both sides
Curl/Flat
Mesh
All slant
NCAA
Deep comebacks with inside seams
Post in the middle void

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 09:14 AM
Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.

Not true, That might be for C2 man. Cover 2 rules for a CB is zone, between 3-5 yards off playing catch technique. Meaning the WR gets a free release and then the Cb collisions, funnels, and sinks to flat zone, while reading # 2 to his side. So that's why slants work. Mind you Lbs in this system are all spot dropping to Curl and hook zone.

It has nothing to do with Wrs, that's just fan talk. This is why slants in Xs and Os works. Because of the free release in C2 zone. Also the the WR just needs to get inside leverage and shield off the CB, which shouldn't be hard because the CB is already playing off him.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 09:16 AM
Definitely. In fact, I've never been completely clear on how Cover 2 teams aren't much worse in run support. The linebacker's first steps are almost always backwards and the defensive line is usually less held to gap control. Sure, the linebackers have more time to read and react, but you figure that's a real "bend not break" attitude to run defense.

Not true, your LBs are reading usually the guard for a run or pass key. Then you focus on the triangle in the backfield and deduce the RB flow. Once you do that, which all is very, very fast processing you play run and hit the gap. Or if you read pass, which is a kick step by the linemen, you drop to your zone.

hockey619
01-07-2009, 09:23 AM
I read after the Colts-Bears super bowl that Peyton was able to beat the Tampa 2 Cover 2 with the following:

Draws-Delays-Dump to RB--> Hed wait for the backers to read pass and drop, then throw under or handoff. Addai had so much space that he was able to take chunks of yards at a time. It would also use the pass rush of the Bears against them. Theyd rush up field thinking pass and it would create more lanes for Addai to escape and take off.

D.Clark runs seam route- Wayne Runs crossing route from outside and comes in behind Clark--> They did this all game. Clark would run up the seam and draw the LB with him and Wayne would come about ten yards downfield right in the middle and get the pass.

I know theres more ways to beat it but I remember these two being talked about specifically.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 09:30 AM
I read after the Colts-Bears super bowl that Peyton was able to beat the Tampa 2 Cover 2 with the following:

Draws-Delays-Dump to RB--> Hed wait for the backers to read pass and drop, then throw under or handoff. Addai had so much space that he was able to take chunks of yards at a time. It would also use the pass rush of the Bears against them. Theyd rush up field thinking pass and it would create more lanes for Addai to escape and take off.

D.Clark runs seam route- Wayne Runs crossing route from outside and comes in behind Clark--> They did this all game. Clark would run up the seam and draw the LB with him and Wayne would come about ten yards downfield right in the middle and get the pass.

I know theres more ways to beat it but I remember these two being talked about specifically.

Yup, that's the theory to beating it. You want ALL the Lbs to read pass, and by doing that you have your OL kick step back once and then stand firm at the LOS. This tells the LBs to drop back and then you watch them far back in their drop to run up. So by that time you can get 5-10 yards.


But don't forget Manning probably is watching the front too. You have to read what front the DL is in. Like 4-3, 4-3 over, 4-3 under, and so on. Coverages are always associated to the fronts. There is a strong relation between the two. You pick that up from scouting and film breakdown.

Below is the delay we run out with Ward that is a bread and butter play for us out of shotgun. The play is the last play on the bottom on the left hand side. This was against the Seahawks earlier in the season from my game breakdown, running section of the breakdown.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/Minion6990/Seahawks-Giants08/run1_0001.jpg

Bills2083
01-07-2009, 09:31 AM
Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.

When you're playing the Bills and you run slant routes, it always works.
Our CBs play at least 8-10 yards off the WR allowing the slant routes to be open underneath everytime. That's why our defense could not get off the field.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 09:52 AM
When you're playing the Bills and you run slant routes, it always works.
Our CBs play at least 8-10 yards off the WR allowing the slant routes to be open underneath everytime. That's why our defense could not get off the field.

I wouldn't be suprised if opposing Qbs were changing a route via hand signal to the wr to run a slant once he saw that pre snap. I feel your pain though. We had Tim Lewis before we hired Spags and his defense played the same way. Nearly broke Corey Webster down, and now look at him in this new system. Maybe a DC change might help you guys?

Dam8610
01-07-2009, 01:09 PM
When you're playing the Bills and you run slant routes, it always works.
Our CBs play at least 8-10 yards off the WR allowing the slant routes to be open underneath everytime. That's why our defense could not get off the field.

Sounds like your DC has your team in Cover 3 shells a lot, or your CBs are pretty raw, does your team have trouble stopping the run without 8 in the box?

Gay Ork Wang
01-07-2009, 01:20 PM
i always wondered what it meant or why it was necessary for TEs or OTs e.g. to understand the system. Or even WRs.

Xonraider
01-07-2009, 01:26 PM
Not true, That might be for C2 man. Cover 2 rules for a CB is zone, between 3-5 yards off playing catch technique. Meaning the WR gets a free release and then the Cb collisions, funnels, and sinks to flat zone, while reading # 2 to his side. So that's why slants work. Mind you Lbs in this system are all spot dropping to Curl and hook zone.

It has nothing to do with Wrs, that's just fan talk. This is why slants in Xs and Os works. Because of the free release in C2 zone. Also the the WR just needs to get inside leverage and shield off the CB, which shouldn't be hard because the CB is already playing off him.

As far as I was concerned CBs in Cover 2 played close to the LOS and bumped the receivers, then covered the flats.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 01:34 PM
As far as I was concerned CBs in Cover 2 played close to the LOS and bumped the receivers, then covered the flats.

Never I have read or heard of any coach that teaches that. I have the Tampa Bay Bucs playbook, and use that as a model of Tampa 2/ C2 zone play.

But from my experience C 2 is zone, so they will be off the Los playing catch technique. Why? Because that gives them time for You, the WR, to come to them, while they are staring at the QB and reading # 2. Usually then once you, as the WR come to them, they will collision you, this gives time for the DL to get pressure on the QB. Then they will knock you off your route, which is funnel you towards the middle, where the LBs are spot dropping, basically covering you long enough to buy time for the DL to get to the QB or rush a through. That's pretty much the theory when it comes to Cover 2 zone play. The Cbs main job is to knock you off your route, and funnel you off towards the middle where the LBs are, while reading the backfield. Now if your RB check releases or free releases, the CB is going to sink, and then cover # 2. All this is making sure that if you do complete the pass someone will be there to rally for a miniminal gain. Excellent theory, but personally not a fan of the Tampa 2 or Cover 2 zone style defense.

This is why you want a undersized defense because the speed involved. That;s why you don't need fast Cbs in this system either. They have to be smart to process all this and good tacklers as well. The safties have to be smart as well and fast to cover over the top just in case the outside WRs get back on their stem of their routes. Hope this explains some of the theory behind it.

The giants run a C2 man aggressive style. So that changes things alot and the theory behind it changes too.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 01:38 PM
i always wondered what it meant or why it was necessary for TEs or OTs e.g. to understand the system. Or even WRs.

What do you mean? You didn't think it was necessary for them to know the know or understand the system?

Xonraider
01-07-2009, 01:54 PM
Never I have read or heard of any coach that teaches that. I have the Tampa Bay Bucs playbook, and use that as a model of Tampa 2/ C2 zone play.

But from my experience C 2 is zone, so they will be off the Los playing catch technique. Why? Because that gives them time for You, the WR, to come to them, while they are staring at the QB and reading # 2. Usually then once you, as the WR come to them, they will collision you, this gives time for the DL to get pressure on the QB. Then they will knock you off your route, which is funnel you towards the middle, where the LBs are spot dropping, basically covering you long enough to buy time for the DL to get to the QB or rush a through. That's pretty much the theory when it comes to Cover 2 zone play. The Cbs main job is to knock you off your route, and funnel you off towards the middle where the LBs are, while reading the backfield. Now if your RB check releases or free releases, the CB is going to sink, and then cover # 2. All this is making sure that if you do complete the pass someone will be there to rally for a miniminal gain. Excellent theory, but personally not a fan of the Tampa 2 or Cover 2 zone style defense.

This is why you want a undersized defense because the speed involved. That;s why you don't need fast Cbs in this system either. They have to be smart to process all this and good tacklers as well. The safties have to be smart as well and fast to cover over the top just in case the outside WRs get back on their stem of their routes. Hope this explains some of the theory behind it.

The giants run a C2 man aggressive style. So that changes things alot and the theory behind it changes too.
I'm not doubting you know a lot about X's and O's at all I know you do, so thanks for correcting that to me, I'm not much of a defensive coach.

Well, I know a coach that does teach corners to bump first them cover the flats, lol... but I was pretty sure it was like that for some reason, probably Madden :S

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 02:05 PM
I'm not doubting you know a lot about X's and O's at all I know you do, so thanks for correcting that to me, I'm not much of a defensive coach.

Well, I know a coach that does teach corners to bump first them cover the flats, lol... but I was pretty sure it was like that for some reason, probably Madden :S

That's fine, that's why I created this thread. Yeah every coach teaches it different. That's why drafting sooo hard. If I teach something different, and you become a stud player, and I am a pro coach, and have to re teach it, you could possible struggle with the way the team wants it.

This just shows that there are so many coaches and all teach things differently. The theory behind football basically stays the same, it's how they teach it which changes. Not only that the terminology changes too, which is a pain in the butt.

I been in coversations with coaches where I had no clue what they were talking about because they used different terminology for stuff. One example being Dig route vs Hunt route. Or Arrow route vs Shoot route. Same exact routes, but called different things. So if you don't know it your sitting there lost. Now add different techniques to running it and you can see it's a pain in the buttock!

But it's all good. I just like talking Xs and Os. To me that's where the good stuff lies.

Gay Ork Wang
01-07-2009, 02:24 PM
What do you mean? You didn't think it was necessary for them to know the know or understand the system?
yea, like what is there to understand

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 02:32 PM
yea, like what is there to understand

LOL. Everything. I'll do OL men first.

How to huddle
Terminology
Formations
How to block 1 running play, which can take up to 2 pages because the play is drawn up against every defensive front given in the DEF Front ID section by the OC.
Audible rules
Understanding of various blitzes, which are all mapped out by the OC

Then you have to learn pass protections.

Base protection for 1 step drop
3 step drop
5 step drop
7 step drop
Playaction pass protection
naked boot pass protection
sprint out pass protection
Roll out pass protection
Screen passes
Goal line protection

Now all those pass protections have to 2 pages again for each because you have to draw it up against each of the fronts. So say if there are 15-20 4-3 fronts, then all those will be included. Then you have to learn it for 3-4, bear, and so on.



TE/WR

How to huddle
Formations
Motion Tags
Outside WR passing Tree
Inside WR passing Tree
Choice routes
Option routes
Blocking assignments for running plays
Scramble Rules
Audible rules
sight adjustment rules


I really wish I can attach power points and PDF because then I could upload professional and college playbooks. I have alot of them. So people can see their playbooks for various teams.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 02:35 PM
I will do this if people PM me their email and username, so I know who I am sending it to, I can email them alot of the stuff I can't post due to file issues. If I could post a 300 page playbook I def. would but it's too hard. But I can send stuff to people if they are really curious if they want.

neko4
01-07-2009, 03:22 PM
I will do this if people PM me their email and username, so I know who I am sending it to, I can email them alot of the stuff I can't post due to file issues. If I could post a 300 page playbook I def. would but it's too hard. But I can send stuff to people if they are really curious if they want.
I used to go to a website that had alot of college and pro playbooks, but it got shut down so I wanna see some of these playbooks.

I saw Urban Meyer's Utah playbook which was pretty cool.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 03:33 PM
I used to go to a website that had alot of college and pro playbooks, but it got shut down so I wanna see some of these playbooks.

I saw Urban Meyer's Utah playbook which was pretty cool.

That's the system I coached in. The OC basically used that system that Alex Smith ran and we had that system. In offensive meetings he showed cutups of their offense, and I gotta admit, that offensive system is sweet!

Gay Ork Wang
01-07-2009, 04:51 PM
LOL. Everything. I'll do OL men first.

How to huddle
Terminology
Formations
How to block 1 running play, which can take up to 2 pages because the play is drawn up against every defensive front given in the DEF Front ID section by the OC.
Audible rules
Understanding of various blitzes, which are all mapped out by the OC

Then you have to learn pass protections.

Base protection for 1 step drop
3 step drop
5 step drop
7 step drop
Playaction pass protection
naked boot pass protection
sprint out pass protection
Roll out pass protection
Screen passes
Goal line protection

Now all those pass protections have to 2 pages again for each because you have to draw it up against each of the fronts. So say if there are 15-20 4-3 fronts, then all those will be included. Then you have to learn it for 3-4, bear, and so on.



TE/WR

How to huddle
Formations
Motion Tags
Outside WR passing Tree
Inside WR passing Tree
Choice routes
Option routes
Blocking assignments for running plays
Scramble Rules
Audible rules
sight adjustment rules


I really wish I can attach power points and PDF because then I could upload professional and college playbooks. I have alot of them. So people can see their playbooks for various teams.
What are scramble rules

btw new Anatomy of a Play videos:

Sproles GW TD Run
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80df3298

and

Westbrooks 71 yard Screen

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80df3285

Paranoidmoonduck
01-07-2009, 05:06 PM
Not true, your LBs are reading usually the guard for a run or pass key. Then you focus on the triangle in the backfield and deduce the RB flow. Once you do that, which all is very, very fast processing you play run and hit the gap. Or if you read pass, which is a kick step by the linemen, you drop to your zone.

Interesting. I suppose that would make draws all that more effective.

Gay Ork Wang
01-07-2009, 05:11 PM
i think reading the RB flow and the guards was exactly what Bulluck said on playbook:

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80aecacc

neko4
01-07-2009, 07:13 PM
Anybody else here currently play or coach football?

I play QB, my school is going to be running a Wing T this year. We ran a West VA spread last year, and a sort of pro style offense my freshmen and sophomore years (JV was running a flexbone though, kind of stupid the JV ran a different offense). We've basically been through the entire spectrum of offenses in football

jimmylishis
01-07-2009, 07:31 PM
yeah I play MLB at my school. Im a Sophomore and I think i have a shot at starting varsity OLB.

Xonraider
01-07-2009, 10:17 PM
Anybody else here currently play or coach football?

I play QB, my school is going to be running a Wing T this year. We ran a West VA spread last year, and a sort of pro style offense my freshmen and sophomore years (JV was running a flexbone though, kind of stupid the JV ran a different offense). We've basically been through the entire spectrum of offenses in football

I know most of the things of a Wing T, I've played it and coached it and love it. The plays I know, I know every rule and every technique.

What do you need to know?

NY+Giants=NYG
01-07-2009, 10:21 PM
What are scramble rules

btw new Anatomy of a Play videos:

Sproles GW TD Run
http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80df3298

and

Westbrooks 71 yard Screen

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80df3285




Scramble rules are rules set in place when your QB is scrambling around in the backfield or to one side. When he is pressure and is running out of the pocket to the left or right.

As a WR or TE scramble rules come into play. You run your route, and see your QB running around to either side, and you run routes based on the side he is running. So if I am on the left lined up and run a 12 yard curl, and I run the route, and QB is out of the pocket running to the right, then no way he will throw to me. A good QB won't risk throwing across his body, so I have to run to the right in a set route, as does all skill players.

OCs have a page called scramble rules for the WRs and TEs and such. Everything in football is set and orchestrated. No one just runs around like a fool all over the field.

DaBear89
01-08-2009, 02:57 AM
i did play in HS. OL/LB thinking of trying to walk on this spring at my college (Coastal Carolina). definately going football as a career tho. i spent A LOT of time with my coaches and HS and even if i dont make the CCU team will try to work with the team in some facet. my dream, besides being the starting MLB for the bears, is to run a team either as a coach or GM.

thefalconer
01-08-2009, 07:28 AM
i did play in HS. OL/LB thinking of trying to walk on this spring at my college (Coastal Carolina). definately going football as a career tho. i spent A LOT of time with my coaches and HS and even if i dont make the CCU team will try to work with the team in some facet. my dream, besides being the starting MLB for the bears, is to run a team either as a coach or GM.

i think that's everyone's dream here.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-08-2009, 08:55 AM
i think that's everyone's dream here.

Still not a bad dream. I would think the most popular nowa days is actor or something in the music industry. That seems to be everyones, just look at American Idol and how many people try out. Football is alot tighter and much harder to get up the ranks, but it's a good dream to have none the less.

DaBear89
01-08-2009, 01:36 PM
yeah i realize its lofty but one of my favorite quotes is shoot for the moon. if if you don't make it you'll land among the stars. i just want to work around football that bad. i could make my living as a towel boy for the lions and my only problem with the job would be is im employed by a division rival

NY+Giants=NYG
01-08-2009, 01:41 PM
yeah i realize its lofty but one of my favorite quotes is shoot for the moon. if if you don't make it you'll land among the stars. i just want to work around football that bad. i could make my living as a towel boy for the lions and my only problem with the job would be is im employed by a division rival

That's something I need to get over too. But if it's work then you have to be mature enough to do it. I am supposed to meet with Cowboys OC Garrett's dad sometime soon for an interview. If I do get something it would be with the cowboys, and I am a die hard giants fan. Obviously not ideal, but I know it's a job and pays the bills, while doing what I love. So you gotta think of it as a job, doing what you love.

Xonraider
01-08-2009, 01:49 PM
That's something I need to get over too. But if it's work then you have to be mature enough to do it. I am supposed to meet with Cowboys OC Garrett's dad sometime soon for an interview. If I do get something it would be with the cowboys, and I am a die hard giants fan. Obviously not ideal, but I know it's a job and pays the bills, while doing what I love. So you gotta think of it as a job, doing what you love.

And since you know a lot about the Giants, you could help some against them :D

NY+Giants=NYG
01-08-2009, 02:13 PM
And since you know a lot about the Giants, you could help some against them :D

My worse fear is wearing Cowboys gear.. I might have to shower everytime and cry in the shower. lol. Take a crying game shower and sit under cold water, and say I am sorry, over and over again, lol.

DaBear89
01-08-2009, 04:06 PM
lol i can see it now "cowboys assistant exposed as giants fan. fired immediately."

CC.SD
01-08-2009, 04:46 PM
Anybody else here currently play or coach football?

I play QB, my school is going to be running a Wing T this year. We ran a West VA spread last year, and a sort of pro style offense my freshmen and sophomore years (JV was running a flexbone though, kind of stupid the JV ran a different offense). We've basically been through the entire spectrum of offenses in football

Sorry about that. Better make your throws count.

neko4
01-08-2009, 05:07 PM
I know most of the things of a Wing T, I've played it and coached it and love it. The plays I know, I know every rule and every technique.

What do you need to know?

Nothing really. I was just frustrated with the constant changing of systems

neko4
01-08-2009, 05:09 PM
Sorry about that. Better make your throws count.
Yeah. Our coach claims he wants a balanced attack, but we'll see about that

Xonraider
01-09-2009, 03:19 PM
Sorry about that. Better make your throws count.

921 for the win!

neko4
01-09-2009, 03:24 PM
921 for the win!

Our coach put in a few shotgun formations, mostly for passing and options and Im trying to convince him to throw in that option/shovel pass that Florida uses.

Smokey Joe
01-09-2009, 03:32 PM
A few questions about people who are experts on the 3-4...

What are the specific differences between both ILB and both OLB's in a 3-4. ie., what determines which side they have, skill sets needed, etc.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-09-2009, 11:02 PM
A few questions about people who are experts on the 3-4...

What are the specific differences between both ILB and both OLB's in a 3-4. ie., what determines which side they have, skill sets needed, etc.

They have to be smart and able to shed blocks.

ILB. Have to be able to read their keys and process information quickly because it's 3 DL vs 5 OL so 2 OL men are going to be blocking to the 2nd level. So you have to make sure your NT can eat up blockers, and your ILB have to be quick to read their keys, pass or run, and then read the backfield flow.

OLBs in a 3-4 are usually your 4-3 DEs. They are alot bigger have to play in space. So they have to athletic enough to cover TEs and guys from the backfield, and big enough so that when they blitz they can get by an OL player or RB. They have to be quick in processing run or pass, and then be the force player on a running play.

Football IQ is a must for all of these LBs, while size is wanted for the OLB. hat's why you normally see them as 4-3 DE. That's just general stuff without going into scheme stuff which usually differs from system to system.

Gay Ork Wang
01-10-2009, 07:13 AM
i think his question was more: whats the difference between the RILB and LILB as well as the LOLB and ROLB

Smokey Joe
01-10-2009, 09:31 AM
They have to be smart and able to shed blocks.

ILB. Have to be able to read their keys and process information quickly because it's 3 DL vs 5 OL so 2 OL men are going to be blocking to the 2nd level. So you have to make sure your NT can eat up blockers, and your ILB have to be quick to read their keys, pass or run, and then read the backfield flow.

OLBs in a 3-4 are usually your 4-3 DEs. They are alot bigger have to play in space. So they have to athletic enough to cover TEs and guys from the backfield, and big enough so that when they blitz they can get by an OL player or RB. They have to be quick in processing run or pass, and then be the force player on a running play.

Football IQ is a must for all of these LBs, while size is wanted for the OLB. hat's why you normally see them as 4-3 DE. That's just general stuff without going into scheme stuff which usually differs from system to system.
I think I was unclear...

1.) What exactly are the differences, if any, between BOTH of the two OLB's?

2.) What exactly are the differences, if any, between BOTH of the two ILB's?

NY+Giants=NYG
01-10-2009, 10:56 AM
I think I was unclear...

1.) What exactly are the differences, if any, between BOTH of the two OLB's?

2.) What exactly are the differences, if any, between BOTH of the two ILB's?

O ok, my bad. That's normally a system thing. I am sure the keys are the same as I listed above, but the players skills set as individuals may come into play to define their role to get maximum skill utilization. For instance if you have Ware, Merriman or LT as an OLB you may just send them every time throughout the game, while the other OLB mixes it up more. This allows the great OLB to get more chances for sacks.

I would guess it's the same with the ILBs. I have Bill B's '97 Jets playbook, so I will look it up for his system, but normally that role would be defined by the individual's player's skill set. Clearly you're not going to have good pass rushers not rush and stick to stopping the run and cover if the guy can excel at sacking the QB.

My suggestion is tape or record today's Ravens and game, and tomorrow's Steelers game and watch their defense and focus on the players you are wondering about. Honestly that's the easiest way to learn.

stephenson86
01-10-2009, 10:59 AM
the LILB is called the MIKE backer pretty similar to the 4-3 MIKE backer except he aligns in a 2 tech to the TE side. the RILB, referred to as the MAC backer also aligns in a 2 tech except he is on the weak side away from the tight end. both play from A gap to B gap (inside out run). the MIKE tends to be a harder nosed attacker of the ball as hes playing a strong side like roll almost like an SLB whereas the MAC has to be like a WLB not overruning the play and being patient so as not to lose backside containment normally the smaller and quicker of the two. both players also must be able to blitz the QB and be able to drop into short zones.

the two OLB's are pretty much similar and they are known mainly as pass rushers. they have SAM and WILL and both tend to either 5 or 7 gap the OL. they each have very similar roles and 1 tends to always go after the QB at least. they arent relied as much on in coverage as the MIKE or MAC but being good in coverage always helps.

hope that helps you

mind you thats just basic overview im sure it changes from coordinater to coordinater scheme to scheme

DaBear89
01-10-2009, 01:15 PM
since i can sense where this is going and ive had this thought in my head for awhile, how would u see the bears transforming into a 3-4? who do you think would line up where

Gay Ork Wang
01-10-2009, 01:17 PM
since i can sense where this is going and ive had this thought in my head for awhile, how would u see the bears transforming into a 3-4? who do you think would line up where
the bears would suck in a 3-4. we wouldnt have a NT, we dont even have a capable one in the 4-3. Harris would be kinda a non factor at 3-4 DE trying to stop the run. Urlacher would die at ILB since he is horrible at shedding blocks.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-10-2009, 01:44 PM
since i can sense where this is going and ive had this thought in my head for awhile, how would u see the bears transforming into a 3-4? who do you think would line up where

I don't know your roster or DC. It depends on the system what 3-4 fronts the bears want to show. I would say watch the pre season games and I am sure you guys will practice alot of the main fronts while keeping the stunting and blitz packages vanilla.

You need the right personnel to run a 3-4. Who would your 3-4 Lbs be? What about DEs and NT?

Gay Ork Wang
01-10-2009, 01:46 PM
we dont have anyone really that would fit in a 3-4 front

Smokey Joe
01-10-2009, 02:06 PM
Idonije's best fit is probably DE in a 3-4. I'd say it'd look something like the following (with no changes to our roster):

DE: Idonije
NT: Adams
DT: Harrison (Harris doesn't fit anywhere in a 3-4)
WILL: Alex Brown (better fit then Ogunleye)
MAC: Urlacher
MIKE: Briggs
SAM: Anderson
CB: Graham
SS: Payne
FS: Tillman (would have to move here with m2m coverage)
CB: Bowman (this was tough, we don't have any good man guys at CB)

Now, if we switched to the 3-4 and made a bunch of offseason moves...

DE: Idonije (good fit here)
NT: Raji (1st rounder, real good fit at NT for any system)
DT: Harrison (Harris doesn't fit anywhere on the line in a 3-4)
WILL: Suggs (free agent signing, he's a beast)
MIKE: Briggs (better in run support then Urlacher, so he plays the strongside)
MAC: Urlacher (better in coverage then Briggs so he plays the weakside)
SAM: Anderson (maybe he wouldn't suck here)
CB: Graham (solid in m2m, IMO)
SS: Payne (not much of a change here)
FS: Tillman (needs to be moved here we witch schemes)
CB: Mickens (2nd round pick, good m2m guy)

NY+Giants=NYG
01-10-2009, 02:12 PM
The main focus will be NT. If he is anywhere close to being bad, then your Brian U and Briggs will get owned like no ones business. Remember that off year where Ray lewis was whining because the NT couldn't get the blockers off of Ray ray, and then they drafted Ngata and it changed. But you guys better get the NT perfect.

Smokey Joe
01-10-2009, 04:37 PM
I remember hearing something a while ago about being able to get the coaches video of games... I was wondering, is there something like that out there or no?

neko4
01-10-2009, 04:53 PM
921 for the win!
We actually wont be using a numbering system for pass plays

illmatic74
01-10-2009, 10:00 PM
I remember hearing something a while ago about being able to get the coaches video of games... I was wondering, is there something like that out there or no?Only NFL teams and NFL films have coaching tape.

NY+Giants=NYG
01-13-2009, 10:32 AM
Wildcat Formation for people to refer to in the future.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/081116Saints-Chiefs02.jpg

Gay Ork Wang
01-13-2009, 10:51 AM
what exactly counts as Wildcat?

NY+Giants=NYG
01-13-2009, 10:58 AM
what exactly counts as Wildcat?

It's basically a theory where the skill players gets the snap, giving the option to run or throw it. Usually a WR or someone will motion and allow the skill player an option to hand it off to the WR, let him go, and hand it off to the RB, or let him run, and run a different way, follow the RB who will block for him now, or gives him an option to throw it.

Don't get bogged down by the name of the formation. Just learn what it's trying to do from an Xs and Os point of view. That's why it's effective. Same with Urban Meyer's spread gun. It's effective because it takes adv. of the #s in terms of single high safety or 2 high safeties. From there they look who is near the LOS, and run a play accordingly.

illmatic74
01-13-2009, 10:59 AM
what exactly counts as Wildcat?ItThere needs to be at least 3 options of either keeping the ball, handing the ball or, passing. There also has to have some form of motion.

CC.SD
01-13-2009, 12:31 PM
In the Chargers' 3-4, they used to have a thumper and a coverage backer as the ILBs (Godfrey and Donnie Edwards), with the thumper playing the run and blitzing in some packages and the coverage guy mopping up runs and obviously playing the pass.

Lately they have been employing two thumpers and playing a safety a little closer to the box as a way to shore up the soft middle. This experiment has failed because it gives too much responsibility to the 2nd safety, and both of ours are terrible. Stephen Cooper has tried to transform from thumper to coverage backer and done a decent job at it, but it's still not great.

The OLBs usually rush, already been pointed out in this thread. The Wade Phillips 3-4 was basically a 5-2 defense with both OLBs rushing constantly, but under Cottrell/Rivera one usually drops into coverage. Under both schemes, the defensive ends, run stuffers on the first two downs, are usually subbed for more pass-rush oriented players ie. Igor Olshansky for Jacque Cesaire or Marques Harris. Sometimes Shaun Phillips (or Merriman, sigh...) will put his hand on the ground and a backup OLB will rush from a 2 point stance.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-13-2009, 06:05 PM
By the way, I love that Kansas City was using the Pistol for a good chunk of the 2008 season. It didn't do much good, but I've always liked that alignment.

neko4
01-13-2009, 06:18 PM
By the way, I love that Kansas City was using the Pistol for a good chunk of the 2008 season. It didn't do much good, but I've always liked that alignment.
Thats probably because they have bad players, not because of the pistol

NY+Giants=NYG
01-14-2009, 08:47 AM
I like the theory behind the Pistol Offense. Not sure if I'd make it a system, but if I'd created a system I would use some of the alignments in my offense. It's a good mix of 2 different systems.

Iamcanadian
01-14-2009, 09:24 AM
A few questions about people who are experts on the 3-4...

What are the specific differences between both ILB and both OLB's in a 3-4. ie., what determines which side they have, skill sets needed, etc.

To put it simply, 2, 3-4 ILB's have far less field to cover and can therefore be much slower than 4-3 ILB's.
DE's provide the main pass rush in a 4-3 defense while OLB's provide the main pass rush in a 3-4 defense. As a general rule because there are 4 LB's in a 3-4, they can all be a slower than 4-3 LB's. That is not to say that they are all slower than a 4-3 LB, it just adds another position where you can get away with being slower.
OLB's in a 3-4 also have to be able in a lot of their defensive schemes, to play as a DE on occasion and thus usually have to be a bigger than 4-3 OLB's.
There are other differences because there are 2 kinds of 4-3 defenses, a Cover 2 or a basic 4-3 and many 3-4 teams have different defensive schemes they use but these are the main differences that exist.
As for individual abilities. The stronger ILB run defender might switch to the TE side or the LDE side where teams usually run more. The same for OLB's. The better pass rusher might be put on the side of the RDE if he is a weaker tackler as teams usually run to their right side more against the LDE's. So basically the better run defenders will probably be put on the left side and the weaker run defenders on the right side or some teams may mix the 2 up.

NY+Giants=NYG
03-12-2009, 11:24 AM
There are other differences because there are 2 kinds of 4-3 defenses, a Cover 2 or a basic 4-3 and many 3-4 teams have different defensive schemes they use but these are the main differences that exist.

Don't forget you have Cover 2, Tampa 2, and a regular style 4-3 defense.
I prefer the aggressive style of 4-3 after seeing the nonsense we ran when Lewis was our DC.

On general note, any members know anything about their team's new system implemented to their team, be it offense or defense?

The Legend
03-12-2009, 11:29 AM
Hey are 49ers going to run a 4-3 or 3-4 this year?

Brent
03-12-2009, 11:33 AM
Hey are 49ers going to run a 4-3 or 3-4 this year?
3-4, just like we have been since Nolan was hired. Occasionally we have 4-3 fronts but most the time, if there are 4 down linemen, it's in nickel or dime.

NY+Giants=NYG
03-12-2009, 11:36 AM
3-4, just like we have been since Nolan was hired. Occasionally we have 4-3 fronts but most the time, if there are 4 down linemen, it's in nickel or dime.

Who will make up the 4 down linemen in the 4-3 front?

yourfavestoner
03-12-2009, 02:36 PM
Don't forget you have Cover 2, Tampa 2, and a regular style 4-3 defense.
I prefer the aggressive style of 4-3 after seeing the nonsense we ran when Lewis was our DC.

On general note, any members know anything about their team's new system implemented to their team, be it offense or defense?

Jacksonville is going back to a Cover Two thankfully. It suits the personnel much better. Durant and Smith are two good linebackers that can run, hit, and cover.

If the young defensive ends progress as expected, this defense could make a nice turnaround from last season's disaster of a performance. It'd be nice to get a stud UT to take some pressure off John Henderson, too. He really struggled last season, getting no help from any other defensive lineman.

I'm not too worried about the secondary as long as the defensive line gets some help.

gpngc
03-12-2009, 02:40 PM
Jacksonville is going back to a Cover Two thankfully. It suits the personnel much better. Durant and Smith are two good linebackers that can run, hit, and cover.

If the young defensive ends progress as expected, this defense could make a nice turnaround from last season's disaster of a performance. It'd be nice to get a stud UT to take some pressure off John Henderson, too. He really struggled last season, getting no help from any other defensive lineman.

I'm not too worried about the secondary as long as the defensive line gets some help.

Peria Jerry would be ideal.

yourfavestoner
03-12-2009, 02:45 PM
Peria Jerry would be ideal.

To be honest, I really want to trade out of the 8 spot for him or Percy. Hopefully someone falls in love with Sanchez and tries to trade in front of San Francisco to get him.

NY+Giants=NYG
03-12-2009, 02:51 PM
Jacksonville is going back to a Cover Two thankfully. It suits the personnel much better. Durant and Smith are two good linebackers that can run, hit, and cover.

If the young defensive ends progress as expected, this defense could make a nice turnaround from last season's disaster of a performance. It'd be nice to get a stud UT to take some pressure off John Henderson, too. He really struggled last season, getting no help from any other defensive lineman.

I'm not too worried about the secondary as long as the defensive line gets some help.

Well that's the key in a cover 2 scheme. You guys need DL pressure or else it's going to be a long season. The thing that helps a team like the Colts is having Mathis and Freeney. You guys need your DL to come up huge, especially in that system.

yourfavestoner
03-13-2009, 04:21 AM
Well that's the key in a cover 2 scheme. You guys need DL pressure or else it's going to be a long season. The thing that helps a team like the Colts is having Mathis and Freeney. You guys need your DL to come up huge, especially in that system.

The crazy thing is that Jack Del Rio and Mike Smith made the scheme work up until last season with zero pressure at all. Hugh Douglas, Tony Brackens, Paul Spicer, Jason Gilden, Reggie Hayward, and Rob Meier have been previous starters on Jacksonville at the DE position since 2003.

You can't imagine how much losing Mike Smith meant to this team. You can see the results of how good of a coach he is in how quickly he got things turned around in Atlanta.

NY+Giants=NYG
03-13-2009, 08:46 AM
The crazy thing is that Jack Del Rio and Mike Smith made the scheme work up until last season with zero pressure at all. Hugh Douglas, Tony Brackens, Paul Spicer, Jason Gilden, Reggie Hayward, and Rob Meier have been previous starters on Jacksonville at the DE position since 2003.

You can't imagine how much losing Mike Smith meant to this team. You can see the results of how good of a coach he is in how quickly he got things turned around in Atlanta.

Yeah he is a good coach with a good GM. But let the honey moon period end, and let's see how he does in the long hall of things. If I am not mistaken Fassel started out good and then was avg before the wheels came totally off. But DL pressure is huge for those types of defensive systems.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-21-2009, 12:25 PM
Now that teams have different coordinators on both sides of the ball put observed scheme changes in here.

For instance now that Plax and Toomer are gone, we have re-adjusted our passing scheme to a certain extent. From what I observed so far, in the first preseason game, we seemed to have run a lot of installed screens. From RB, WR, and TE screens. We also ran simple ISO and LEAD concept runs vs the Panthers 4-3 base front, which they seemed to keep the same, according to John Fox.

The passing scheme was the basic curl, slant, and in routes, but good to see us also check down when nothing else was open. Looking forward to see some more practice of installs tomorrow vs the Bears.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-26-2009, 11:09 AM
Here BBD for you:

This is the basics for the install for this system. Obviously you can change it, and manipulate based on what you like and don't like. Also, remember when you install a system at any level, especially with this, the way you rep and practice is different too.. This holds true for this system. The way Leach practices is a lot different than any other coach might practice his system. It's really interesting how they rep this system.

THE SYSTEM

10-runs
20-runs
30-runs
40-fast screens right
50-fast screens left
60-quick game
70-nothing/false number during Nascar series
80-playactions,same as 90's
90-dropback


FORMATIONS:
colors= 2 RB sets
reg words-1 RB set

SHOTGUN:

Blue- 3 WR 2 RB (X,Y,Z) (BLUE- HB left)
Green-same as blue,but the RB and FB switch sides(X,Y,Z)(GREEN- HB right)
Ace-2 x 2 formation (X,H,Y,Z)
Early- 3 x 1 formation ( X,Y,H,Z)
Dart-2 x 2 formation,same as ace but X is inside and H is outside

UNDER CENTER:

Orange-I-formation
Black -offset, FB weak (BLACK-FB left)
Brown-offset, FB strong (BROWN-FB right)

FORMATION VARIATIONS
FLIP-puts the Z inside the X in any formation (Ace Flip gives u a trips left look)
FLOP-same as FLIP ,but the X is inside the Z
OPEN-flexes Y if ur base form has the tight-end in a 3pt stance
YO-puts Y in a 3pt stance if your base formation flexes him out wide
RIP-puts the Y off the ball and the Z on the ball
LATE-puts the Z in the slot on the same side as the Y,Y flexes out
SQUEEZE-compresses any spread formation
TITE-brings the X in to a tight end position backside
UNDER-puts the QB under center when he usually is in shotgun

DROPBACK (Tags)

90-Shallow (Z-Curl)
91-Smash (Cop,Slugo)
92-Mesh (Z-Post,F-Wheel,H-Wheel,Pyramid)
93- H-Wheel
94-Y-Sail (F-Angle,Z-Post))
95 -Y-Cross(Z-Post,X-Post,H,Backside)
96-All Curls (H-Wheel,Z-Post,X-Post)
97-Verticals (Z-Dig, X-Dig)


QUICK GAME

60-Speed Out (outside )
63-Quick Out (slot)
66-Hitch (outside)
67-Slant (Outside)
68-Y-Stick
69-Y-Corner

SCREENS

Fast
Slow
Bubble
Crack
Jailbreak

ROLLOUT

Rodeo-Right
Lasso-Left

BASE RUN GAME

Speed Sweep
Zone
Iso
Power
Speed Option
Lead Draw

NASCAR

no huddle system(many ways to do it)

Dam8610
08-26-2009, 11:38 AM
Don't forget you have Cover 2, Tampa 2, and a regular style 4-3 defense.
I prefer the aggressive style of 4-3 after seeing the nonsense we ran when Lewis was our DC.

On general note, any members know anything about their team's new system implemented to their team, be it offense or defense?

I think there's more than one style of 4-3 defense that's not Tampa 2 out there. The scheme the Packers ran last year was entirely different from the scheme the Eagles/Giants run, and both of those are entirely different from the scheme the Seahawks run, for example.

As far as what the Colts are going to do scheme wise, It's going to still be a Tampa 2 scheme, but the team is going to use more concepts from other schemes. Thus far, it looks like those concepts are coming from the attacking 4-3 scheme of Jim Johnson and the bump and run secondary concepts of the Packers 4-3 scheme from last year.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-26-2009, 11:42 AM
I think there's more than one style of 4-3 defense that's not Tampa 2 out there. The scheme the Packers ran last year was entirely different from the scheme the Eagles/Giants run, and both of those are entirely different from the scheme the Seahawks run, for example.

As far as what the Colts are going to do scheme wise, It's going to still be a Tampa 2 scheme, but the team is going to use more concepts from other schemes. Thus far, it looks like those concepts are coming from the attacking 4-3 scheme of Jim Johnson and the bump and run secondary concepts of the Packers 4-3 scheme from last year.

Yeah I am sure they fall into the Jim J's style of 4-3, or just a compilation of different defensive theories that take a little from every system.

So I am guessing probably a lot more man on the outside, and perhaps a little more aggressiveness but keeping some of the responsibilities and keys the same from the tampa 2.

It will be interesting to see. Now that I have DVR on one tv, and VHS tape on the other I can record more games and break it down. Though, for offensive purposes, I may just do the your offense. That to me is very interesting.

Are you excited to see this new defense of yours?

Dam8610
08-26-2009, 12:23 PM
Are you excited to see this new defense of yours?

I'm VERY excited to see the new defense, but that has a lot more to do with the personnel than it does with the scheme, though Wheeler is made more promising by the new scheme. The entire defensive personnel unit is more talented than it has been at any point in the past decade IMO (this includes two units that placed in the Top 2 in scoring defense in the league), it should be a fun unit to watch.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-27-2009, 08:01 AM
I'm VERY excited to see the new defense, but that has a lot more to do with the personnel than it does with the scheme, though Wheeler is made more promising by the new scheme. The entire defensive personnel unit is more talented than it has been at any point in the past decade IMO (this includes two units that placed in the Top 2 in scoring defense in the league), it should be a fun unit to watch.

Yeah I remember Wheeler coming out of college. I will be interested to see how he does as well. Sometimes talent doesn't come out due to scheme. Remember when people said we had a terrible secondary couple years ago? That was due to scheme and our DC was Tim Lewis. Once we fired him, and spags came in and changed it around and used our guys the right way. Our play increased for the better a 1000%. All of a sudden that made Webster a star. Someone who everything thought was a bust, came alive in a new system.

So a change of coordinator always scares me, even if they come from the within the staff, there is always some questions to be answered. You just hope he doesn't screw around and put good talent in the wrong spots, or doesn't utilize everyone efficiently.

bigbluedefense
08-27-2009, 10:13 AM
Here BBD for you:

This is the basics for the install for this system. Obviously you can change it, and manipulate based on what you like and don't like. Also, remember when you install a system at any level, especially with this, the way you rep and practice is different too.. This holds true for this system. The way Leach practices is a lot different than any other coach might practice his system. It's really interesting how they rep this system.

THE SYSTEM

10-runs
20-runs
30-runs
40-fast screens right
50-fast screens left
60-quick game
70-nothing/false number during Nascar series
80-playactions,same as 90's
90-dropback


FORMATIONS:
colors= 2 RB sets
reg words-1 RB set

SHOTGUN:

Blue- 3 WR 2 RB (X,Y,Z) (BLUE- HB left)
Green-same as blue,but the RB and FB switch sides(X,Y,Z)(GREEN- HB right)
Ace-2 x 2 formation (X,H,Y,Z)
Early- 3 x 1 formation ( X,Y,H,Z)
Dart-2 x 2 formation,same as ace but X is inside and H is outside

UNDER CENTER:

Orange-I-formation
Black -offset, FB weak (BLACK-FB left)
Brown-offset, FB strong (BROWN-FB right)

FORMATION VARIATIONS
FLIP-puts the Z inside the X in any formation (Ace Flip gives u a trips left look)
FLOP-same as FLIP ,but the X is inside the Z
OPEN-flexes Y if ur base form has the tight-end in a 3pt stance
YO-puts Y in a 3pt stance if your base formation flexes him out wide
RIP-puts the Y off the ball and the Z on the ball
LATE-puts the Z in the slot on the same side as the Y,Y flexes out
SQUEEZE-compresses any spread formation
TITE-brings the X in to a tight end position backside
UNDER-puts the QB under center when he usually is in shotgun

DROPBACK (Tags)

90-Shallow (Z-Curl)
91-Smash (Cop,Slugo)
92-Mesh (Z-Post,F-Wheel,H-Wheel,Pyramid)
93- H-Wheel
94-Y-Sail (F-Angle,Z-Post))
95 -Y-Cross(Z-Post,X-Post,H,Backside)
96-All Curls (H-Wheel,Z-Post,X-Post)
97-Verticals (Z-Dig, X-Dig)


QUICK GAME

60-Speed Out (outside )
63-Quick Out (slot)
66-Hitch (outside)
67-Slant (Outside)
68-Y-Stick
69-Y-Corner

SCREENS

Fast
Slow
Bubble
Crack
Jailbreak

ROLLOUT

Rodeo-Right
Lasso-Left

BASE RUN GAME

Speed Sweep
Zone
Iso
Power
Speed Option
Lead Draw

NASCAR

no huddle system(many ways to do it)

thanks bro. im gonna try to catch some of their games this year and just see this scheme in action as well. ill use this as a template on what to look for.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-27-2009, 10:59 AM
thanks bro. im gonna try to catch some of their games this year and just see this scheme in action as well. ill use this as a template on what to look for.

Or just PM me your playbook and this goes for anyone else that would like playbooks. Since it's the start of the year, I will send some out for people to look at. I have Sp. teams, offense, and defense..

I have a lot of Air Raid playbooks, so hit me up BBD, and I will send you some, if it fits in the email of course.

bigbluedefense
08-27-2009, 11:11 AM
Or just PM me your playbook and this goes for anyone else that would like playbooks. Since it's the start of the year, I will send some out for people to look at. I have Sp. teams, offense, and defense..

I have a lot of Air Raid playbooks, so hit me up BBD, and I will send you some, if it fits in the email of course.

Baby steps Shock :) I like watching a system first, getting a general idea of how it works and what they like to do, then i go into the details afterwards, watch it all over again, and fill in the pieces.

TACKLE
08-27-2009, 03:29 PM
http://smartfootball.com/

This is a great site with lot of good info. I've been going to this site for a while and I've always gotten a lot out of it. The analysis is very good techincal stuff is very well done.

NY+Giants=NYG
08-27-2009, 06:23 PM
http://smartfootball.com/

This is a great site with lot of good info. I've been going to this site for a while and I've always gotten a lot out of it. The analysis is very good techincal stuff is very well done.

Yup! One of the best sites out there..

djp
11-09-2010, 03:55 PM
We need to bring this thread back.

This is more of a general football philosophy question

I was just watching NFL Network, and Jason La Canfora made the point of how the Ravens offense was struggling with Cover 2 defenses because Flacco was not connecting on 15-20 yard routes behind the corners and in front of the safeties. He said Baltimore did a great job of adjusting to this by running a lot of screens and checkdowns to combat the amount of Cover 2 they were seeing.

My question is, what is the optimal gameplan for a team like Minnesota, who is struggling mightily with picking up man blitzes all season long? They have tried to screen teams, but it is sniffed out way more than they would like, so I don't think that would be an option at this point. How can they set themselves up to better defend the blitz? It seems like they are just blowing assignments (particularly Peterson, who has cost Favre at least 7-8 huge hits this year) all the time.

Paranoidmoonduck
11-09-2010, 07:52 PM
As I recall, Minnesota's offensive line huge but not particularly mobile. That makes screen harder (but not impossible), because it's harder to fool the linebackers or convince defensive linemen they beat the block that easy.

The problem gets compounded because when you struggle to pass prospect, you tend to leave people in the backfield but when you run a screen involving clearing the backfield, that sends a pretty good sign. Shorter dump-offs are great, but delayed blitzes will wreck that **** up.

I'm far from an expert in strategy, and having never had to work any problem solving out against a defense that was a fraction as complicated as an NFL defense, I could be missing something, but the most obvious (and very imperfect) solution I know is that if the team is going to blitz you and you can't get get a runner who can stay back and handle that, all you can do is try to dictate the blitz direction. Get a tight end in the box, cheat a backfield blocker to the same side, and run short slants with Favre all day long (he still throws those really well). If a blitz is coming, just make sure it's not productive from half the field. This practice only really works if you have a quarterback who can hang in the pocket and throw off the back foot like Favre can. Eventually teams will blitz less.

That said, in the meantime, Favre is going to take hits because the Vikings can't stop it. There ultimately aren't a whole lot of solutions to not being able to pass protect, just bandaid solutions to lessen pressure.

falloutboy14
11-09-2010, 08:32 PM
My first thoughts are having the TE delay his route. Acting as a blocker for the first moment then running a simple 4 yard route. Assuming the defense is blitzing 1-2 linebackers that should mean a safety is on the TE. Ideally he'd see the TE block and start looking to help the corners.

I'd go with slant or slant-&-go routes for the WRs. Slant routes lead the WR's into the space emptied by the blitzing LBs. Slant & go keeps the corners honest.

For the Vikings specifically, you could just run the ball. If you run away from the blitz, those are essentially defenders you don't have to block. Which means AP should be running into the secondary.

gpngc
11-09-2010, 08:40 PM
We need to bring this thread back.

This is more of a general football philosophy question

I was just watching NFL Network, and Jason La Canfora made the point of how the Ravens offense was struggling with Cover 2 defenses because Flacco was not connecting on 15-20 yard routes behind the corners and in front of the safeties. He said Baltimore did a great job of adjusting to this by running a lot of screens and checkdowns to combat the amount of Cover 2 they were seeing.

My question is, what is the optimal gameplan for a team like Minnesota, who is struggling mightily with picking up man blitzes all season long? They have tried to screen teams, but it is sniffed out way more than they would like, so I don't think that would be an option at this point. How can they set themselves up to better defend the blitz? It seems like they are just blowing assignments (particularly Peterson, who has cost Favre at least 7-8 huge hits this year) all the time.

You can have the greatest gameplan in the world but it won't matter if you don't execute. That has been Minnesota's problem. Although I do also think they are waaaaay too predictable at times (there have been way too many times when I called stretch play or screen attempt and sure enough the defense had it pegged as well).

When it's a blitz with man coverage across the board you just need to win one-on-one battles.

The best way to do that would be to have Harvin learn how to adjust while being on the same page as Favre when he sees blitz and run quicker routes (quick slant, quick hitch, quick out).

And throwing to Peterson on the swing pass (or even an angle route) is something they don't do nearly enough.

General Zod
11-09-2010, 08:47 PM
Peterson is never on the field on 3rd downs. Its always Gerhart or Kliensausage. Just for the fact that Peterson is so bad at pass protection. I like the quick slant idea, its just something Favre and Harvin have to workout. We are set up in max protect so much because of our terrible offensive line, it really limits our passing options.

gpngc
11-09-2010, 08:53 PM
Peterson is never on the field on 3rd downs. Its always Gerhart or Kliensausage. Just for the fact that Peterson is so bad at pass protection. I like the quick slant idea, its just something Favre and Harvin have to workout. We are set up in max protect so much because of our terrible offensive line, it really limits are passing options.

I meant throw to Peterson on early downs.

I think a swing pass on 1st and 10 or even like 2nd and 4 would be something a linebacker, thinking he needs to hit the hole and meet Peterson by being the aggressor vertically, would really struggle with. Peterson on the edge is scary.

General Zod
11-09-2010, 08:57 PM
I meant throw to Peterson on early downs.

I think a swing pass on 1st and 10 or even like 2nd and 4 would be something a linebacker, thinking he needs to hit the hole and meet Peterson by being the aggressor vertically, would really struggle with. Peterson on the edge is scary.

ah, gotcha

And its not a bad idea either, because a lot of times we do this with Harvin in the same situations and its usually effective.

Ravens1991
11-09-2010, 09:07 PM
i have a question about zone D coverages. This is coming from a guy who never played football in my life (**** you genetics)


It seems like the Ravens are playing tampa 2 zone with the CBs back pedaling. The WR does a curl route and the CB just stands there lets them catch and make a tackle. I figure if he charges the WR on the curl the WR will just break of the route and go deep for a big gain. But the CB gets crucified on various forums because of it.

So can you guys tell me the basic plan for a CB in a zone D (sorry if that explanation doesnt make sense)

king2am
11-09-2010, 09:09 PM
You can have the greatest gameplan in the world but it won't matter if you don't execute.

When it's a blitz with man coverage across the board you just need to win one-on-one battles.



This.

If you have cover zero there has to be a matchup you can consisently exploit if you have any hope of getting the defense to soften up. I know this question was specifically about beating combatting zero blitzes, but it's really the same concept with teams that want to run the ball but always see 8 or 9 man fronts. It's the defenses way of standing toe to toe saying, 'we don't think you can win the matchup on the edge' and until you do, you're allowing them to dictate the terms of the game.

Minnesota specifically would benefit a great deal if Bernard Berrian could come through with some cover zero beaters. I disagree with a previous poster who suggested double moves - there really isn't enough time if you are struggling in pass pro to execute a double move. Berrian getting vertical and cashing in on a long gain, or Harvin taking a quick slant ( as was suggested earlier) are the types of things that would make a DC think twice about sitting in zero and sending pressure leaving no backend help.

Personnel groupings can really benefit the offense as well. For instance, Shiancoe, Kleinsasser, Harvin, Berrian, AP suggests a run set with double tight single back. It could just as easily be a Trey set with Shiancoe on the line but split out. Now you have a large athlete in space against a linebacker. Or it forces the Defense to sub an extra DB and then you're cooking with gas on the ground.

Also, something that I think is not used enough - reset the pocket. You can manipulate the defense's set by having a TE or a tight slot, and then you can roll to the softer side away from where the D likes to send their pressure. Favre is going to throw on the move anyway, might as well design it.
1. Beat 1 on 1's that's what you're paid for.
2. Manipulate personnel groupings to get matchups you like (shiancoe)
3. Move the pocket

NY+Giants=NYG
11-09-2010, 10:32 PM
i have a question about zone D coverages. This is coming from a guy who never played football in my life (**** you genetics)


It seems like the Ravens are playing tampa 2 zone with the CBs back pedaling. The WR does a curl route and the CB just stands there lets them catch and make a tackle. I figure if he charges the WR on the curl the WR will just break of the route and go deep for a big gain. But the CB gets crucified on various forums because of it.

So can you guys tell me the basic plan for a CB in a zone D (sorry if that explanation doesnt make sense)

Depends on what kind of zone.. In typical zone, for example C 2 zone, like the Bucs ran with Kiffin, it was collision, funnel, and sink was what the Cbs tend to do..

Meaning you want to collision the wr, and funnel him towards the middle where the Lbs are all spot dropping. Then your keeping your eyes in the back for # 2 coming out.

But usually all this stuff is in the DB or secondary section of the defensive playbook. It tells you how the CB should align and what to do after that.

You normally are eyeing the QB, and trying to follow where is will go with the ball. Usually in these types of coverages, the DC relies on the front 4 for pressure, which means the QB has to either throw it away, force a bad pass, or get sacked. That's where the zone then rally and make a play.

the dude
11-13-2010, 09:41 AM
slightly OT: Does anybody know how to find the statistics for current head coaches replay challenge success rate?

yourfavestoner
11-13-2010, 11:54 AM
slightly OT: Does anybody know how to find the statistics for current head coaches replay challenge success rate?

Not off the top of my head. I know Coughlin is the active leader at like 47% success.

Rosebud
11-13-2010, 12:29 PM
Not off the top of my head. I know Coughlin is the active leader at like 47% success.

This fact seems to give every announcer an irony-boner. Which, while amusing, loses it's luster after you realize that the announcers will giggle over it everytime the old man challenges a play.

Ravens1991
11-17-2010, 03:02 PM
is bump and run or playing off the LOS does that depend on the coaches scheme or the CBs decision? Me and my friend are getting into a debate on it now.

bigbluedefense
11-17-2010, 03:07 PM
is bump and run or playing off the LOS does that depend on the coaches scheme or the CBs decision? Me and my friend are getting into a debate on it now.

both.

depends on how much lieniency the coach gives him.


Usually its based on scheme, but some coaches allow you to move closer or play off depending on how much he trusts you and how strict he is with his schemes.

Ravens1991
11-17-2010, 03:10 PM
Thanks me and my friend got in a big debate about that when we were talking about how terrible the Ravens pass D has looked recently.