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Average OT LB
11-14-2008, 03:04 AM
Anybody remember what Tom Brady played like before he scored a million touchdowns in a year? I've seen a few games Cassel has played (recently) and he looks alot like the Tom Brady i remember. You know, that guy who threw efficient short passes to everyone and anyone on the field.. a "game manager" whatever that means.. a clutch performer etc. Tom got better, so im not saying they're the same, but it absolutely looks to me that if cassel played 7 years in the patriots offense (and under the coaching staff) that he could be nearly every bit the player tom brady is today. The argument I always made with Peyton vs Brady was that you knew Peyton was gifted coming out of college.. It's why he was drafted so high. Peyton could have litterally gone anywhere and succeeded. Brady wasn't like that, he is today, but not when he was drafted. He happened to be on the perfect team for him and he reached his fullest potential and now hes maybe the greatest quarterback to ever play. But Cassel looks like he is the exact same player Brady was, and I think he could be just as good. He won't get his chance, so I'll never know but for now all I'd rather know is...

Is this a fair assessment?

619
11-14-2008, 03:06 AM
How do you expect me to focus on your assessment when you got that avy ? Dayuuuuum. :)

diabsoule
11-14-2008, 03:52 AM
Cassell could get his chance after this year since he is a FA. What I have liked out of him is that it looks like he's gotten better with each game. He's becoming more comfortable with the offense, even when he's had his top running backs go down with injury. With that being said, I don't think there can be a comparison between Brady and Cassell. It looks like Brady has better deep ball accuracy along with a bigger arm.

bored of education
11-14-2008, 06:41 AM
I cannot make a judgement here. Two different styles and two different teams. If I was to start Brady from 02 or this years Cassel with a team from Scratch I would go with Cassel. He could do more on his own than needing a team of coaches and other solid players around him. But that is going with 8 years backing up learning the system. Even without stepping on the field his junior year in college you could say he was a top 10 QB in college. Guy was a solid prospect with a ton of ablity and never got his chance.

But with that....

I had to think this over again lol. Hmmmm I dunno. Myabe I'd go with Tyler Thigpen

Wait let me think about this again.

TYLER THIGPEN!

I have no fricken clue.

Yatta!
11-14-2008, 07:50 AM
Someone is going to throw a lot of money at Cassell during the offseason. He's proven he can be an effective game manager and now he's starting to make big plays. Minnesota maybe? He would push them over the top.

jsagan77
11-14-2008, 08:41 AM
Someone is going to throw a lot of money at Cassell during the offseason. He's proven he can be an effective game manager and now he's starting to make big plays. Minnesota maybe? He would push them over the top.

I was thinking the Titans with Collins getting up there in age.....

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 09:38 AM
Brady...and it isn't even close. Not even in the same stratosphere. The way they're being used is similar, but Brady did it with FAR less help on offense. Matt Cassel has Randy Moss and he doesn't know how to use him. Old Tom Brady would struggle with it as well, but he damn sure wouldn't miss Randy Moss streaking by a corner near as often as Cassel does. He puts up decent numbers...but those few plays hurt us more than he helps.

Does he have a chance to progress? Yeah. He's a talented guy. Somebody should bring him in for sure. I'm not sure I would count on him. The team that brings him in should have another guy they like ready for sure.

PACKmanN
11-14-2008, 09:43 AM
Someone is going to throw a lot of money at Cassell during the offseason. He's proven he can be an effective game manager and now he's starting to make big plays. Minnesota maybe? He would push them over the top.

I will laugh my behind off if Minnesota overpays for him, which some team will do.

Geo
11-14-2008, 09:54 AM
I imagine some will unfortunately have a hard time with this, because they can't get past Brady playing in his 8th NFL season last year. Brady first played in his second NFL season, Cassel in his fourth NFL season.

And right now, Cassel looks just like Brady did in their respective first seasons. Probably better on last night alone, and this is all without Charlie Weis and having Drew Bledsoe/Tom Brady there at meetings. But we'll see if Cassel progresses like Brady, that's the biggest attribute of Brady in his career, how he's progressed.

Cassel has definitely shown more than Matt Schaub did when the Texans acquired him. I think Minnesota is a great idea, maybe moreso than San Fran.

Todd Bertuzzi
11-14-2008, 09:56 AM
I imagine some will unfortunately have a hard time with this, because they can't get past Brady playing in his 8th NFL season last year. Brady first played in his second NFL season, Cassel in his fourth NFL season.

Cassel also hadn't taken a snap since High School before this season.

Turtlepower
11-14-2008, 10:03 AM
Cassel also hadn't taken a snap since High School before this season.

He's taken plenty of snaps, but he just hasn't started.

Todd Bertuzzi
11-14-2008, 10:04 AM
He's taken plenty of snaps, but he just hasn't started.

When I say a snap I mean a meaningful one not one in practice or just to give Brady a water break.

Eaglez.Fan
11-14-2008, 10:05 AM
He's taken snaps in games before. Last year he took many snaps in the actual season.

Todd Bertuzzi
11-14-2008, 10:10 AM
You know what I meant

TitleTown088
11-14-2008, 10:18 AM
You know what I meant

Todd are you aware that Justin Morneau wears your jersey under his Twins jersey during games?

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 10:19 AM
I imagine some will unfortunately have a hard time with this, because they can't get past Brady playing in his 8th NFL season last year. Brady first played in his second NFL season, Cassel in his fourth NFL season.

And right now, Cassel looks just like Brady did in their respective first seasons. Probably better on last night alone, and this is all without Charlie Weis and having Drew Bledsoe/Tom Brady there at meetings. But we'll see if Cassel progresses like Brady, that's the biggest attribute of Brady in his career, how he's progressed.


But it's also with about ten times the supporting cast. The only thing Cassel has on Brady's first season is yardage. That's not surprising either. Brady threw 413 passes in 2001. Cassel is on pace to throw 500+. The offense and the style we play is completely different.

I'm not trying to deny that Cassel has been pretty good. But the numbers have made him look a lot better than he actually is.

ChezPower4
11-14-2008, 10:29 AM
Someone is going to throw a lot of money at Cassell during the offseason. He's proven he can be an effective game manager and now he's starting to make big plays. Minnesota maybe? He would push them over the top.

If Cassell continues to play well NE will not beable to sign him just for the reason you stated above. Cassell will go to the team that's going to give him a good payday. I think that Matt has been playing so well this year because of the coaching staff that he's got bringing him along. If Cassell goes some where else I have a hard time seeing him becoming a good QB in this league. Some will make a bad investment in Matt Cassell in the 2009 offseason.

BuddyCHRIST
11-14-2008, 10:30 AM
Cassell certainly looks pretty good now, so much better than he did early in the season where he seemed scared to throw the ball. He definitely has a better supporting cast than Brady did, but Brady had a much better defense too. Its really a toss up, because I don't think enough people realize how much better Tom Brady got, and it wasn't just him becoming more comfortable. His Arm strength looked like it doubled last year.

Geo
11-14-2008, 10:33 AM
Troy Brown was a Pro Bowl receiver in 2001, I'm glad someone actually recalls that. And the Patriots did have solid though unspecatular talent then too, David Patten in his prime, Antowain Smith ('97 1st round pick of the Bills, I remember him coming up in Buffalo), Kevin Faulk.

But I think it's fair to say that the '08 Patriots have much better offensive talent, not RB but the OL and the receivers.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 10:37 AM
and 1/47 the coaching.

further, is randy moss tripping or starting off deep routes at a jog (not to mention falling down at the merest hint of contact) really an improvement over troy brown going balls to the wall on every play? seems like selective memory.

Yes, actually. That's not taking into account that Wes Welker is playing the same exact game that Troy Brown was playing in 2001 either. So is Randy Moss better than David Patten?

I wouldn't say the coaching is far behind either. Charlie Weis is a great offensive coach. He made Brady. Josh McDaniels really isn't that far behind though, and he played a critical role in making Brady as well.

Turtlepower
11-14-2008, 10:43 AM
The Jets are ranked 27th in Passing Yards per game. I think people are blowing up one game a bit. Remember when Rex Grossman was an MVP candidate. Let's give him a full season or 2 before claiming how well he will be.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 10:54 AM
The Jets are ranked 27th in Passing Yards per game. I think people are blowing up one game a bit. Remember when Rex Grossman was an MVP candidate. Let's give him a full season or 2 before claiming how well he will be.

The Jets defense was also responsible for the rise of Tyler Thigpen.

In Tom Brady's first, limited offense year, he found a way to lead us to a Super Bowl victory and be the MVP of that game.

In his second year, he led the AFC in touchdown passes. Cassel...won't do that. Ever.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 10:57 AM
wes welker is not currently a pro bowl player though he DID have a comparable year last year. randy moss has had one great year out of his last 5. the rest, he's spent most of his time failing to try. would i currently rather have david patten and antowain smith (1100 yards) over a randy moss who won't run and whatever garbage you decide to start on sunday at rb? yes. unequivocally. unless moss decides he wants to try (on the TD reception) he's utterly not worth having on the field, in spite of all the ridiculous stat love he got last season.

Well, that's you sir. I'm sure you can find plenty of David Patten's and Antowain Smith's in free agency. They'll be more than happy to play for whoever.

Give me Randy and his crap. I'll take that along with the deep ball.

Oh, and you're right about Welker not being a Pro Bowler...but he' doing the EXACT same stuff Troy Brown was doing in 2001 and putting up the exact same numbers. It's almost eerie how similar they are.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 11:07 AM
the deep ball he's refused to run the last few games or the deep ball cassell's currently 0 for his last 22 (iirc) on, in part because moss has started off nearly every fade route at a 50% jog? either way, sounds like a solid plan to me. :rolleyes:

I'm not going to deny that Randy hasn't been as motivated as he was last season, but he's not the only guy. The only guy on our offense who's playing as well as they did last year is Wes Welker.

I don't know what you're watching as far as the deep ball goes, but I've seen him absolutely blow by guys more than a few times this year and Cassel flatout miss him. You give Brady the same plays and he probably completes a more than half of them.

B-Dawk
11-14-2008, 11:58 AM
anyone think the pats might tag cassell to trade him?

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 12:30 PM
however, in the last three games, moss will start a route at half speed, then, once cassell's thrown it (usually to a point moss could've easily gotten to at a sprint from the snap), he'll shift into gear. he still absolutely blows by the defender. but watching him now makes me think he's overcompensated for the first few games, where cassell regularly underthrew him (absolutely a problem for cassell). now, it seems to be completely the reverse.

*shrug*

That's not all that far from the truth. The fact of the matter is that it's Cassel's job to deliver the ball and Moss' to get open. The fact that they don't have the same kind of chemistry is unfortunate, but a lot of it can be pinned on Cassel's long throwing motion. He holds onto the ball WAY too long. He has problems pulling the trigger even on the short stuff. He completes it, but the timing isn't ideal and he minimizes our receiver ability to get YAC. Back in the day Brady was was a whole lot better than Cassel that.

CashmoneyDrew
11-14-2008, 12:32 PM
anyone think the pats might tag cassell to trade him?

No.

If you can read this you're wasting your time.

JonasBlane
11-14-2008, 12:33 PM
Cassell has a great offensive line and excellent receiving corps to work with, and he is putting up just average numbers. I believe that most NFL QB's would be able to put up either equal or better stats if they were given a full year in the Patriots system. A team will overpay for Cassell this offseason, and if it is a team like the Lions or Niners, they will be very upset. Because if he's putting up average numbers with the Pats offense around him, he won't stand a chance playing with a bad offense.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 12:34 PM
Cassell has a great offensive line and excellent receiving corps to work with, and he is putting up just average numbers. I believe that most NFL QB's would be able to put up either equal or better stats if they were given a full year in the Patriots system. A team will overpay for Cassell this offseason, and if it is a team like the Lions or Niners, they will be very upset. Because if he's putting up average numbers with the Pats offense around him, he won't stand a chance playing with a bad offense.

I agree. I think he could peak out as average in the NFL, but I'm very curious to see what he could do playing for a different team.

As far as tagging him, I don't see it. It would be really stupid too.

D-Unit
11-14-2008, 12:42 PM
anyone think the pats might tag cassell to trade him?
No way in hell. That tag on the QB position is so costly, it could backfire on them and they don't spend money frivously.

Cassell will end up being the QB of the Lions next year. Bank on it.

Menardo75
11-14-2008, 01:04 PM
For some reason I could easily see Cassell as a Niner next year.

Joker_232
11-14-2008, 01:22 PM
For some reason I could easily see Cassell as a Niner next year.

you would! any winning QB could wear the red and gold

DragonFireKai
11-14-2008, 01:25 PM
You're all wrong. All free agents of dubious talent and solid name recognition are automatically awarded a top 3 contract with the Raiders. It's written into the NFL bylaws.

CashmoneyDrew
11-14-2008, 01:31 PM
You're all wrong. All free agents of dubious talent and solid name recognition are automatically awarded a top 3 contract with the Raiders. It's written into the NFL bylaws.

Hey, then they could make Jamarcus Russell lose some weight and become the left tackle and kill two birds with one stone!

bored of education
11-14-2008, 01:34 PM
You're all wrong. All free agents of dubious talent and solid name recognition are automatically awarded a top 3 contract with the Raiders. It's written into the NFL bylaws.

Not funny?

Niners, Lions, Seahawks are my guesses.

BBIB
11-14-2008, 01:44 PM
I think it's amazing that this kid has even looked this good considering he's never started a game at the college level.

He's missed a ton of open WRs, but honestly what can you expect given that fact?

It's too bad the Pats put this kid in this situation. It's basically the arrogance of Bill Belichick who refused to go pick up a veteran QB. The Pats should at least be 7-3 right now, possibly 8-2 or 9-1 if they had just signed a veteran QB.

But the arrogance of Belichick, he wanted to stick with a no name guy just like Brady once was

bored of education
11-14-2008, 01:45 PM
I still dont think its that great of a story. if he was a back up at SW Missouri Technical University then I would says WOW AMAZING!!

HE was arguably a top 10 QB in college without even stepping on the field. Rusty? Yes. Loss of talent and natural abilities, no.

TimD
11-14-2008, 01:54 PM
Cassell could get his chance after this year since he is a FA. .

pick him up Jets haha

Geo
11-14-2008, 01:56 PM
I agree. I think he could peak out as average in the NFL, but I'm very curious to see what he could do playing for a different team.

As far as tagging him, I don't see it. It would be really stupid too.
As long as he doesn't sign the tag, they could always rescind it whenever they want. And then he would be a free agent. Then again he could sign the tag, have that great amount of money guaranteed for one year, and wait for a trade or free agency the next offseason (without a cap?).

Btw, I've noticed some people say that, if he leaves in free agency, the Pats will let him go for nothing. Even Mike Lombardi said this. And it's wrong.

If Cassel signs a free agent deal this offseason, presumably a healthy deal monetary-wise given his position and the promise he's shown recently, then the Patriots are in line to get a great compensatory pick. Most likely a 3rd rounder if it's a big money deal, and chances are it could be.

If the Pats were to sign a free agent to a big deal, that could nullify the loss of Cassel, but I don't think that's likely for the Patriots. Who would they sign to that type of deal, like they did with Adalius Thomas? Perhaps Karlos Dansby? They're more likely to re-sign Wilfork and maybe some other players.

Geo
11-14-2008, 02:02 PM
I think Cassel will be in great demand, and for some good reason because he's down some real promise the last few weeks.

Especially considering Matt Stafford is the only promising prospect in the Draft, once he's gone teams are going to be screwed. Draft Josh Freeman in the first round? No way for me, I'll take Cassel by a mile and use that first rounder elsewhere (DL, OL, etcetera).

Then again he's no Jim Sorgi. :D

I'd also look to get Matt Leinart from Arizona, especially if I was a west coast offense team.

Menardo75
11-14-2008, 02:07 PM
After seeing what happend to the Falcons with Vick and Shaub I don't know if they do that.

Jvig43
11-14-2008, 02:15 PM
The Jets are ranked 27th in Passing Yards per game. I think people are blowing up one game a bit. Remember when Rex Grossman was an MVP candidate. Let's give him a full season or 2 before claiming how well he will be.

I totally agree with you on this. Im still not even comfortable yet watching him as i know he cant hit Moss wide open with the deep ball, and yes im sure Moss isnt going 100% because why bother if the kid cant even hit you at 75%. Not that thats the mentality i want all my football players thinking like but i see where its coming from. I do think making comparisons with Brady after one great game dosent make sense. I agree with turtle power, lets wait a few more games to see how he plays. We still have some big ones left. Pittsburg comes to mind where im sure Cassell isnt going to play well against.

tjsunstein
11-14-2008, 02:16 PM
Is Cassel a future Lion or is he gonna resign as a backup?

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 02:19 PM
The Patriots are the NFL's Texas Tech offensively.

Menardo75
11-14-2008, 02:29 PM
The Patriots are the NFL's Texas Tech offensively.

I never thought of it like that before.

BlindSite
11-14-2008, 03:27 PM
Cassell imo, will be a good NFL QB elsewhere in the league, what he needs though is to sit for a year in the new city wherever he goes and adjust to the system. There's not a lot of places who can afford to shell out the money he'll garner to have him sit for a year and not a lot of fanbases that will allow it, but its what i'd want if I was signing him.

The only places that have that luxury are Arizona (If they're done with leinart as Warner, is probably only good for one more season), Tennessee (if they're done with young which I doubt), New York Jets (how long can favre play?), and Carolina.

FalconTown83
11-14-2008, 03:31 PM
Cassell imo, will be a good NFL QB elsewhere in the league, what he needs though is to sit for a year in the new city wherever he goes and adjust to the system. There's not a lot of places who can afford to shell out the money he'll garner to have him sit for a year and not a lot of fanbases that will allow it, but its what i'd want if I was signing him.

The only places that have that luxury are Arizona (If they're done with leinart as Warner, is probably only good for one more season), Tennessee (if they're done with young which I doubt), New York Jets (how long can favre play?), and Carolina.

Arizona won't re-up with Warner prolly. I think he's done with football, he has no contract so he has no responsibility to play anymore and I think at his age after this season he'll decide the time has come to let his playing days fall by the wayside. But saying that just to say that Warner isn't under contract with Arizona so they don't have that luxury.

I dunno where Matt will end up, but imo, Minnesota is going to come calling for him. They're a team that needs a proven QB, not drafting a rookie and hoping for the next Ryan/Flacco (whichever you prefer) they have a lot of vets and a team that is built to win now. Matt would come into a good situation with a good offensive line and a massive ground attack. Imo, that's the best fit for Cassel and his sizeable contract.

diabsoule
11-14-2008, 03:39 PM
As long as he doesn't sign the tag, they could always rescind it whenever they want. And then he would be a free agent. Then again he could sign the tag, have that great amount of money guaranteed for one year, and wait for a trade or free agency the next offseason (without a cap?).

Btw, I've noticed some people say that, if he leaves in free agency, the Pats will let him go for nothing. Even Mike Lombardi said this. And it's wrong.

If Cassel signs a free agent deal this offseason, presumably a healthy deal monetary-wise given his position and the promise he's shown recently, then the Patriots are in line to get a great compensatory pick. Most likely a 3rd rounder if it's a big money deal, and chances are it could be.

If the Pats were to sign a free agent to a big deal, that could nullify the loss of Cassel, but I don't think that's likely for the Patriots. Who would they sign to that type of deal, like they did with Adalius Thomas? Perhaps Karlos Dansby? They're more likely to re-sign Wilfork and maybe some other players.

He's going to be a N.O. Saint, sir.

Geo
11-14-2008, 03:57 PM
I'm looking forward to Cris Carter continuing to call Cassel a high school quarterback this Sunday. Idiot.

Arizona won't re-up with Warner prolly. I think he's done with football, he has no contract so he has no responsibility to play anymore and I think at his age after this season he'll decide the time has come to let his playing days fall by the wayside. But saying that just to say that Warner isn't under contract with Arizona so they don't have that luxury.
I think you're reading the tea leaves wrong. ;)

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
11-14-2008, 04:30 PM
Well I think they're similar now sure. But of course, it isn't just the surroundings that make an ELITE quarterback. good surroundings can nurse a QB and make him look better to a point, but an elite QB is an elite QB is an elite QB. Tom was able to become one, but that is certainly no indication that anyone else can too, or else Rex Grossman would have.

Menardo75
11-14-2008, 04:39 PM
Listening to Warner it sounded like he is done after this year....

Todd Bertuzzi
11-14-2008, 04:49 PM
Todd are you aware that Justin Morneau wears your jersey under his Twins jersey during games?

Are you aware that I wear a Justin Morneau jersey under my Flames jersey when I play.

RaiderNation
11-14-2008, 04:53 PM
Cassel is the perfect fit for the Vikings offence. If they can land him in F/A they will be a superbowl contender next year IMO

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 04:57 PM
I never thought of it like that before.

It doesn't seem like anyone does, but when you look at it, it makes sense. The Patriots practically run a spread offense, and pretty much have since Brady's emergence as starting QB (with the exception of 2004 and parts of 2006), they've used the short pass or the formation to substitute for a run game at times, and they've been at their best when they've had great talent at the WR position. IMO it screams system, especially since Cassel has been able to come in and do a decent job of replacing Brady.

Malaka
11-14-2008, 07:21 PM
IMO, I think we need to give more credit to Bellicheck's and McDaniels's(Also Weis's) offensive system. Now I am not saying ANY QB can go to New England and be a pretty good QB, but anyone with any slight bit of good decision making and good under pressure in the Pats system can be successful there, you do not have to be very athletic or talented in the least bit. As you can see that in both Cassel and Brady were not the most physically gifted QBs but, the system and the coaching has made it work.

Right now I believe Tom Brady is one of the best QBs of all time, but I also don't think he would be here without Bellicheck. Look at Brady coming out of Michigan, he was a 6th round pick, and was not really expected to do much in the NFL. I mean look at his combine pic...
http://archive.profootballtalk.com/Brady2000.jpg
He had an average NFL arm, very intelligent and had good size for the NFL, but other than that he was nothing special. Coming out of Michigan he was really just a late round pick, and up most of his collegiate career but Brady did get a chance to start. Now in the NFL, Bledsoe went down and the young QB comes in... and we all know what happens after that. The thing is however that until last years record breaking year, Brady has always been a 25 TD 10 INT guy, but since his rookie year he has progressed astoudingly with the help of great coaches, a perfect New England Offense and plain out experience, into one of the greatest QBs in the NFL ever. He still does not have rocket arm, or much athleticism but he is one of the best decision makers at the QB position to play the game... and I mean look at him now....
http://www.popserious.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/tom-brady.jpg

Now the Matt Cassel story. Coming out of high school Cassel was seen as a little over average prospect and had a good accurate delivery. As you all know he went to USC to back-up Heisman winners Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart, who knows maybe if he got his chance Cassel would be on the Cardinals right now and a Heisman winner, Leinart and Cassel are not much different aside form Leinart being a lefty. After backing-up since high school he was selected in 7th round by the Patriots, the story is almost exactly the same as Brady's, hell there even the same height and around the same weight. Cassel has finally gotten his chance to start with the season ending injury to Brady, and so far through this NFL season, even after a rocky start, it has been IMO a success.

Unfortuantely we will never know who is right, I firmly believe it is Bellicheck and the offensive system, but it is impossible to determine as of right now. Cassel will either be resigned and back-up Brady yet again, or sign on another team with a different system and different coaches. Either way you look at it... as a back-up, we will never see him play unless Brady is injured again, and if he goes to another team, he can play well and show that he has had talent all along, but if he fails it shows that the Patriots system is just an ingenious invention, by Bellicheck and his offensive coaching staff. You can compare rosters of Tom Brady and Cassel's team, and really it is not much different except for the offensive line, Randy Moss just does not try with Cassel there, and I doubt he would with old Brady, and Troy Brown = Wes Welker, and IMO old David Patten > Jabar Gaffney.

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 07:38 PM
I would say the way they let QBs progress is very intelligent (giving many high percentage throws and asking very little early on to build confidence, and slowly expanding on things), but the system? It looks no more ingenious to me than your average spread offense with a slight passing skew.

Shane P. Hallam
11-14-2008, 07:53 PM
Maybe we'll find out next year when Cassel moves elsewhere?

Malaka
11-14-2008, 07:54 PM
I would say the way they let QBs progress is very intelligent (giving many high percentage throws and asking very little early on to build confidence, and slowly expanding on things), but the system? It looks no more ingenious to me than your average spread offense with a slight passing skew.

Well that is it as you said, people say the spread would not work in the NFL, but the Patriots manage to run a form of it. As you said in Texas Tech all there QBs put up big numbers and I think that the Patriots system is what makes the QB, and while they learn and become better as they play, but if they never played with it we might be saying Who is Tom Brady?

EDIT: To Jbond: Yes, that is what will help determine the Patriot system theory.

Rayray52
11-14-2008, 08:42 PM
I dont think there is anyway that Cassel stays, not only are some teams gonna be throwing alot of money his way but i dont think he wants to remain a backup for the rest of his career which he will in New England. I think learning behind Brady and being under Belichicks tutelage has benefited him a great deal and hes now an above average NFL quarterback, with more playing time and experience he could become quite good.

bigbluedefense
11-14-2008, 08:51 PM
everyone is overreacting waaaaaaaay too much right now.


and no, he's not even in the old Brady's league.

Rayray52
11-14-2008, 09:05 PM
everyone is overreacting waaaaaaaay too much right now.

Interesting fact:
Matt Cassel career QB rating:85.6
Eli Manning career QB rating:75.5

Each have a super bowl ring

Cassel>>>ELI

(just kidding...sort of)

Malaka
11-14-2008, 09:52 PM
based on what? the fact that brady's much better now? or that you've forgotten that, talent wise, brady was largely ordinary in 2001 but was smart enough to make the right throws in a system tailored towards making his position easier to play?

I really think talent wise old Brady and Matt Cassel now are equals, same height, same weight, both intelligent, average to above average arms, and Tom Brady was a bit of a better decision maker back then IMO but Cassel is not horrible. I'll say it again I think the Pats spread-like system is the reason behind Brady, and if Cassel fails anywhere but New England it made him.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 10:01 PM
Oh god. I don't even want to touch this anymore. System quarterbacks and Brady isn't really that goods. I really just don't feel like it after last year.

Dam8610
11-14-2008, 10:08 PM
Oh god. I don't even want to touch this anymore. System quarterbacks and Brady isn't really that goods. I really just don't feel like it after last year.

If you can't handle an opposing viewpoint, there is always the option of not reading it and not posting.

TACKLE
11-14-2008, 10:27 PM
I'd have to go with Brady. What Brady didn't have was Wes Welker and Randy Moss. He had Troy Brown, David Patten with Antoine Smith. Josh McDaniel's offense allows any QB to successful with the ability to make short easy passes that doesn't require the QB to have great physical tools. I know Brady had Charlie Weis but it required him to make more NFL throws and reads.

ElectricEye
11-14-2008, 11:54 PM
If you can't handle an opposing viewpoint, there is always the option of not reading it and not posting.

This is how it all starts. Contests. Contests, contests, contests. We're fans. We're competitive and we like to delude ourselves into thinking we're connected and we matter. I get that. Hell, I understand that as well as anyone else. But still, it's just the lamest thing in the world when people try to take away from a guys success just for the sake of it. This is what the Brady vs. Manning debates have turned into. I thought it would be a lot better after Brady broke out last year, but now I kinda realize what you guys have been going through for the past couple years with the numbers crap as well.

It's seriously lame. I don't even want to legitimize the arguments by addressing them on any other level than saying it's lame and it's extremely, extremely petty. It doesn't really matter if some football genius on the internet makes a compelling enough argument against the how the way a quarterbacks toes are angled gives them an advantage in the veer offense, so Mike Vick is the greatest quarterback of all time. If a guy does something, he's capable of doing it where he is. We know that. One can't reasonably conclude that he isn't capable of doing something on a comparable level until they're actually put in that position. The NFL is not a level playing field. It never was, and it probably never will be. With quarterbacks, we hold it against a guy if they aren't running the same offense as everybody else and aren't throwing to exact robotic copies of the same receiver. Situations are different. Teams play the game in different ways. If they didn't, football would be boring. On the college level, moreso the prospect level, it's crucial to evaluate what offense a quarterback is playing with ect ect ect. It's because they might not quite be what the numbers make them look to be and they're a high at risk to flop in the big boy game if they aren't. In the NFL, that really doesn't matter. This is it. The end. Guys here don't make it unless they shredded through college or have elite level physical skills...usually it's a combination of both. The only thing that matters in wins and losses and whether or not a guy can put you in a position to be get more of the former.

Coaches have jobs for a reason as well. It's not just the players. It's their job to put guys in the best position have success, not necessarily statistically digestible or friendly success, but usually that comes with the territory. Stats will never, ever tell the entire story. If GM's judged players by boxscores, we would have a lot more bad football than we already do. They're not balanced metric. Guess what? They never will be. Tom Brady attempted 578 passes last year. A majority of them came in the shotgun. We don't have a legitimate running back. Maroney is really, really soft. He's garbage when he doesn't have a wide open hole. He cuts well, but he cuts into traffic and puts himself in a position to take big hits. Every single one of those passes was attempted in order to win a football game, not to mask any kind of deficiency, other than our inept running game.

It's not like he's not making a read. In a college spread offense, like Texas Tech, they make almost zero reads whatsoever. Most of it is determined at the snap. Brady is the absolute best in the league at dissecting a defense, reading coverages. It's not like he was throwing underneath every play. We had Welker to do that. That's only smart. If you have the best slot receiver in the game, you damn well better play up to his strength. Same goes with Moss. His strength happened to be the deep ball, the first time in appeared in our offense. While our receivers were good last year, it still ultimately came down to Brady making reads. A lot of the time, that was on screen passes and dumpoffs...but guess what? It works. It's working at the highest level of competitive football that exists. If we were doing anything else, it wouldn't be catering to the strengths of our offense. That's probably what this all comes down to; Player X would be better in offense Y, or Player Y wouldn't be what he was with team X. Guess what? That's probably true. If we were suddenly to have some kind of freaky, ******** mass quarterback swap, everybody would look different. Some guys would look better, some guys would look worse. You put oldschool Daunte Culpepper in our offense, and he doesn't quite touch Brady, but he puts up numbers similar to him. That's it though. It's just numbers ultimately. Tom Brady is an elite, elite, elite NFL quarterback. He hasn't done a thing to contradict that statement. All this fantasy football stuff is what it is. If you talk to any team in the NFL, there's probably only a few of them secure enough in their situations to say they wouldn't want him playing for them...and that has more to do with team chemistry and not trying to reinvent something that is already working.

There's only one guy who you can say might be legitimately better than Brady. There's no way around it. There's probably never going to be a satisfying conclusion to that argument either, and ultimately it's just leading to pecking at every little detail and fans trying to take away from just how great those two guys are....and it's really kind of depressing as a fan of the game. Saying stuff like if Cassel goes somewhere else and doesn't look as good as he does in our offense then Brady is a flop is just...gah. I don't even know how to digest that. Of course our offense has something to do with it. There's no doubt our coaching had something to do with it as well, but situations are just as big of a factor as a guys talent. Look at all the busts we have at the quarterback position. With them, you'll most likely find a poor supporting cast and poor coaching. Conversely, the same can be said for successful quarterbacks. If Matt Cassel flops, which I think he will, he's a bad quarterback. He's not a franchise guy who can get you to a Super Bowl. He's not even a guy who can make a defense pay when they blow a coverage. He is what he is. An average NFL quarterback, and a compelling story, throwing to good receivers and making them play down to his level. Tom Brady is an entirely different player.

awfullyquiet
11-15-2008, 12:08 AM
tl;dr...

and that. was that.

ElectricEye
11-15-2008, 12:10 AM
tl;dr...

and that. was that.

Pretty much.

All of this is really, really stupid.

Average OT LB
11-15-2008, 04:42 AM
This is how it all starts. Contests. Contests, contests, contests. We're fans. We're competitive and we like to delude ourselves into thinking we're connected and we matter. I get that. Hell, I understand that as well as anyone else. But still, it's just the lamest thing in the world when people try to take away from a guys success just for the sake of it. This is what the Brady vs. Manning debates have turned into. I thought it would be a lot better after Brady broke out last year, but now I kinda realize what you guys have been going through for the past couple years with the numbers crap as well.

It's seriously lame. I don't even want to legitimize the arguments by addressing them on any other level than saying it's lame and it's extremely, extremely petty. It doesn't really matter if some football genius on the internet makes a compelling enough argument against the how the way a quarterbacks toes are angled gives them an advantage in the veer offense, so Mike Vick is the greatest quarterback of all time. If a guy does something, he's capable of doing it where he is. We know that. One can't reasonably conclude that he isn't capable of doing something on a comparable level until they're actually put in that position. The NFL is not a level playing field. It never was, and it probably never will be. With quarterbacks, we hold it against a guy if they aren't running the same offense as everybody else and aren't throwing to exact robotic copies of the same receiver. Situations are different. Teams play the game in different ways. If they didn't, football would be boring. On the college level, moreso the prospect level, it's crucial to evaluate what offense a quarterback is playing with ect ect ect. It's because they might not quite be what the numbers make them look to be and they're a high at risk to flop in the big boy game if they aren't. In the NFL, that really doesn't matter. This is it. The end. Guys here don't make it unless they shredded through college or have elite level physical skills...usually it's a combination of both. The only thing that matters in wins and losses and whether or not a guy can put you in a position to be get more of the former.

Coaches have jobs for a reason as well. It's not just the players. It's their job to put guys in the best position have success, not necessarily statistically digestible or friendly success, but usually that comes with the territory. Stats will never, ever tell the entire story. If GM's judged players by boxscores, we would have a lot more bad football than we already do. They're not balanced metric. Guess what? They never will be. Tom Brady attempted 578 passes last year. A majority of them came in the shotgun. We don't have a legitimate running back. Maroney is really, really soft. He's garbage when he doesn't have a wide open hole. He cuts well, but he cuts into traffic and puts himself in a position to take big hits. Every single one of those passes was attempted in order to win a football game, not to mask any kind of deficiency, other than our inept running game.

It's not like he's not making a read. In a college spread offense, like Texas Tech, they make almost zero reads whatsoever. Most of it is determined at the snap. Brady is the absolute best in the league at dissecting a defense, reading coverages. It's not like he was throwing underneath every play. We had Welker to do that. That's only smart. If you have the best slot receiver in the game, you damn well better play up to his strength. Same goes with Moss. His strength happened to be the deep ball, the first time in appeared in our offense. While our receivers were good last year, it still ultimately came down to Brady making reads. A lot of the time, that was on screen passes and dumpoffs...but guess what? It works. It's working at the highest level of competitive football that exists. If we were doing anything else, it wouldn't be catering to the strengths of our offense. That's probably what this all comes down to; Player X would be better in offense Y, or Player Y wouldn't be what he was with team X. Guess what? That's probably true. If we were suddenly to have some kind of freaky, ******** mass quarterback swap, everybody would look different. Some guys would look better, some guys would look worse. You put oldschool Daunte Culpepper in our offense, and he doesn't quite touch Brady, but he puts up numbers similar to him. That's it though. It's just numbers ultimately. Tom Brady is an elite, elite, elite NFL quarterback. He hasn't done a thing to contradict that statement. All this fantasy football stuff is what it is. If you talk to any team in the NFL, there's probably only a few of them secure enough in their situations to say they wouldn't want him playing for them...and that has more to do with team chemistry and not trying to reinvent something that is already working.

There's only one guy who you can say might be legitimately better than Brady. There's no way around it. There's probably never going to be a satisfying conclusion to that argument either, and ultimately it's just leading to pecking at every little detail and fans trying to take away from just how great those two guys are....and it's really kind of depressing as a fan of the game. Saying stuff like if Cassel goes somewhere else and doesn't look as good as he does in our offense then Brady is a flop is just...gah. I don't even know how to digest that. Of course our offense has something to do with it. There's no doubt our coaching had something to do with it as well, but situations are just as big of a factor as a guys talent. Look at all the busts we have at the quarterback position. With them, you'll most likely find a poor supporting cast and poor coaching. Conversely, the same can be said for successful quarterbacks. If Matt Cassel flops, which I think he will, he's a bad quarterback. He's not a franchise guy who can get you to a Super Bowl. He's not even a guy who can make a defense pay when they blow a coverage. He is what he is. An average NFL quarterback, and a compelling story, throwing to good receivers and making them play down to his level. Tom Brady is an entirely different player.

This is a pretty long article so maybe i missed it.. but was there a point made? I don't think i found a position or an argument in there. Mayyybe you were saying you don't like how there can even be discussion on something like that, and if thats the case my response would be that things have been discussed that are far less important and far more stupid and this topic of conversation doesnt quite fit that mold in my eyes. If your point was that taking any type of bold stance in this argument is outlandish because it should all be conjecture and theory then i agree, but i just said that in one sentence.

Don't mean to be an ass here, there are a bunch of legitimate points made... although you counter them often in the next sentence.. I'd just like to point out its 'lame' just to call everyone else lame for discussing football on a football forum.

trkaline
11-15-2008, 05:30 AM
This is a pretty long article so maybe i missed it.. but was there a point made? I don't think i found a position or an argument in there. Mayyybe you were saying you don't like how there can even be discussion on something like that, and if thats the case my response would be that things have been discussed that are far less important and far more stupid and this topic of conversation doesnt quite fit that mold in my eyes. If your point was that taking any type of bold stance in this argument is outlandish because it should all be conjecture and theory then i agree, but i just said that in one sentence.

Don't mean to be an ass here, there are a bunch of legitimate points made... although you counter them often in the next sentence.. I'd just like to point out its 'lame' just to call everyone else lame for discussing football on a football forum.

I believe hes saying that when people compare players they tend to dissect every little aspect between players, use anything to try and prove ones better than the other including anything to make the other look bad...use only stats at times...and use way too many hypotheticals and unknowables...in a nutshell....

TitleTown088
11-19-2008, 12:12 AM
Are you aware that I wear a Justin Morneau jersey under my Flames jersey when I play.

You need to teach him how to knock white sox/Detroit players out.

Dam8610
11-19-2008, 12:17 AM
You need to teach him how to knock white sox/Detroit players out.

Yeah, teach him how to get suspended for long periods of time. That would be excellent. Make sure it's Miguel Cabrera that he goes after with the neck shot though.

soybean
11-23-2008, 07:35 PM
nice game today. looks to get a little more comfortable every week

Jvig43
11-23-2008, 07:41 PM
haha Matt did well today, however lets see how well he does without Light in against a Pitts defense. That will be a test.

bored of education
11-23-2008, 08:01 PM
haha Matt did well today, however lets see how well he does without Light in against a Pitts defense. That will be a test.

I think Pitt steamrolls them by at least 21

Jvig43
11-23-2008, 08:13 PM
I think Pitt steamrolls them by at least 21

Our defensive line will eat Pittsys Oline for breakfest. Id think theyd beat us, but no way by double digits. Not with the way Cassel has been playing.

ElectricEye
11-23-2008, 09:26 PM
I gotta give Cassel a lot of credit; he actually made throws today. It was pretty impressive. He wasn't limited in the offense very much and did some nice things with his mobility. Finally made use of the guys around him. He's still nowhere near the quarterback Brady was/is, but he's in a pretty good situation down the stretch. He's probably going to lose some offseason money next week against Pittsburgh though.

Pokeys
11-23-2008, 09:48 PM
Tom came out gunslinging it right from the beginning, lit up the Colts and then started lighting up everybody. Can't believe were even having this discussion. Is Cassel going to take Brady's job?

ElectricEye
11-23-2008, 09:49 PM
Tom came out gunslinging it right from the beginning, lit up the Colts and then started lighting up everybody. Can't believe were even having this discussion. Is Cassel going to take Brady's job?

Nope. Under no circumstances.

Don Vito
11-23-2008, 10:39 PM
I like Cassell a lot, he had a great game today and has showed a lot of talent and toughness this season. The Steelers defense will be a big challenge for him and I can't wait to see how he does.

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
11-23-2008, 11:11 PM
I think alot of this game will hing on what Roethlisberger shows up. If the good Big Ben shows up then the Patriots are in trouble, but if the bad Big Ben shows up then the Patriots have a shot. Hopefully Matt Light can play next week to keep Cassel on his feet as much as possible, because he will get sacked at least a few times by Pittsburgh. If Cassel plays like he has the last two weeks and the line can give him some time I think the Patriots have a good chance. The Pats' defense really needs to step up next week.

Dam8610
11-23-2008, 11:16 PM
Okay Pats fans, I have a hypothetical for you, call it the worst case scenario: What if the infection in Brady's knee takes hold as the surgeons fear, he has to have a new ligament replacement surgery, and he's out for the 2009 season. Do the Pats franchise Cassel? Do they still let him walk? Or do they sign him long term?

Bruce Banner
11-23-2008, 11:19 PM
Not a Pats fan but here are my thoughts.

Franchise him.

Don't have to commit long term on a possible fluke and he will still have to play for a new contract again.

We all know he doesn't "deserve" a franchise tag, both financially and in principle, but I find it to be the best solution.

Jvig43
11-23-2008, 11:32 PM
Okay Pats fans, I have a hypothetical for you, call it the worst case scenario: What if the infection in Brady's knee takes hold as the surgeons fear, he has to have a new ligament replacement surgery, and he's out for the 2009 season. Do the Pats franchise Cassel? Do they still let him walk? Or do they sign him long term?

Well thats already been taken care of so no worries there but i would imagine we franchise him. I can see us doing that even with a healthy Brady just to make sure Brady is ready to go again and if not we'll have a solid back up.

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
11-24-2008, 12:02 AM
I would franchise him for at least next year. God forbid that Tom is not ready for the beginning of next year, then Cassel would still be around to lead the team.

fenikz
11-24-2008, 12:09 AM
I thought i heard this today on one of the pregame shows, Cassell is the 1st Patriots QB to throw for 400 yards in back to back games

devinhester=R.O.Y 2006
11-24-2008, 12:14 AM
I thought i heard this today on one of the pregame shows, Cassell is the 1st Patriots QB to throw for 400 yards in back to back games

I just heard Boomer say that he is only the 5th QB to go for over 400 in back to back games along with Dan Marino, Phil Simms, Billy Volek, Dan Fouts.

Geo
11-24-2008, 12:47 AM
So, do people still think he doesn't come close to their revisionist memory of '01 Brady?

Bruce Banner
11-24-2008, 12:48 AM
So, do people still think he doesn't come close to their revisionist memory of '01 Brady?

01 Brady's team

08 Cassel's team

that is all

diabsoule
11-24-2008, 01:11 AM
I like Cassell a lot, he had a great game today and has showed a lot of talent and toughness this season. The Steelers defense will be a big challenge for him and I can't wait to see how he does.

I think it's going to be difficult and I won't be too critical on him if he loses. The reason for that being that without Matt Light in the game he will be harassed much like Ben Roethlisberger will be.

However, we are watching the emergence of a quarterback and I think it's a beautiful thing. I've been a Cassell fan for a while and am glad that he's turning into the QB I thought he could be. He's going to make Minnesota a very competitive team next year.

Bruce Banner
11-24-2008, 01:14 AM
I saw what you did there.

:)

MetSox17
11-24-2008, 02:16 AM
Not a Pats fan but here are my thoughts.

Franchise him.

Don't have to commit long term on a possible fluke and he will still have to play for a new contract again.

We all know he doesn't "deserve" a franchise tag, both financially and in principle, but I find it to be the best solution.

How much cap-space do the Patriots have? Do they really have enough wiggle room to commit 11 million dollars of their cap to their backup QB?

Bruce Banner
11-24-2008, 02:19 AM
How much cap-space do the Patriots have? Do they really have enough wiggle room to commit 11 million dollars of their cap to their backup QB?

I was working on that assumption.


probably not though.

ChezPower4
11-24-2008, 02:30 AM
So, do people still think he doesn't come close to their revisionist memory of '01 Brady?

all aboard!!!!

Menardo75
11-24-2008, 02:44 AM
His days as a Patriot are numbered now. Brady is their starter no matter what.

Bruce Banner
11-24-2008, 10:07 AM
that's extremely lazy and bad reasoning to boot. do you next plan to argue that joe montana is actually a really average quarterback?

I'm surprised it took this long.

That said, I AM too lazy to go any further atm.

Cassel<<<<<<Brady

Jvig43
11-24-2008, 01:22 PM
Cassell is playing well right now yes, after two very impressive performances i as a pats fan feel a little bit better everytime i see his arm come back to throw the ball. I for one do not believe this is the same situation as Brady, mostly because as already stated the talent level around Cassell and that of Brady are just so far apart its not even fair. Not to take anything away from Cassells play, but Brady played that way with this team every game last year. It could be argued that he was more comfortable with the system, but that first game against the Jets last year when Moss lit up that secondary proved how great of a Qb Brady is having had no playing time with Moss, so i dont think that argument does anything but prove Brady is on another Level. Could Cassell become a huge name star Qb? It looks like he has all the right tools to do so, but in all seriousness, imo Cassell is no Brady.

Jimmy
11-24-2008, 01:56 PM
I wonder how much of it is a system. I'm not saying it's like Florida or Texas Tech. I'm not saying it's that Cassel isn't good. But two relatively unknown college quarterbacks just don't magically turn all pro under the same coach by coincidence. I think coach has some mastermind scheme.

diabsoule
11-24-2008, 02:05 PM
I wonder how much of it is a system. I'm not saying it's like Florida or Texas Tech. I'm not saying it's that Cassel isn't good. But two relatively unknown college quarterbacks just don't magically turn all pro under the same coach by coincidence. I think coach has some mastermind scheme.

Excellent scouting + untapped potential + at least 2 years in the same system + steady coaching staff = Tom Brady's and currently Matt Cassell's success.

Jvig43
11-24-2008, 02:30 PM
completely meaningless given that the comparison was based on each player's first season, thus how brady did last year with the same team is irrelevant. moreso when you consider that the playcalling is VASTLY different for reasons only belichick knows.

True but i was just trying to point out Brady didnt have expreience with Moss in that first game either.

Paranoidmoonduck
11-24-2008, 03:43 PM
fair enough, although brady also had a pro bowl receiver in his first season.

this isn't directed at you, but i'm fairly sick of people acting like the patriots that year were somehow talent bereft. that's incredibly dishonest and/or delusional.

This is true. And it's also true that the Pats were mostly a running team who won with great defensive performances in 2001.

But to say that Brady stepping into that 2001 offense is even remotely comparable to Cassell taking the reigns of the most prolific offense in the history of the NFL is just crazy.

Jvig43
11-24-2008, 03:52 PM
fair enough, although brady also had a pro bowl receiver in his first season.

this isn't directed at you, but i'm fairly sick of people acting like the patriots that year were somehow talent bereft. that's incredibly dishonest and/or delusional.

Yeah i wasnt taking offense, I remeber that year, last year while everyone was picking up Moss and Welker Jerseys, I asked for a Brown Jersey as i hadnt gotten his up until then. I actually preferred having an amzing Defense over our Pass happy offense, winning games 13-9 and such were fun to watch. The goal line stand against Indy was one of the most exciting football games ive ever had the pleasure of watching.

Paranoidmoonduck
11-24-2008, 06:09 PM
i'm not sold that cassel is as good as or better than brady was at a similar point. and i'm EXTREMELY sure that i wouldn't give him the mega contract he's likely to get in the off season. however, some people here are 1) dramatically overstating how good brady was his first season and 2) dramatically overstating the realistic, 'tangible' differences between the two teams.

I completely agree with #1. What makes Tom Brady what he is isn't how he played in 2001, it's how he progressed after that point. And we're assured of no such thing with Cassell.

But I completely disagree with your second point. The New England defense has stayed mostly the same over the years, and I think one of the great accomplishments I've seen in football this decade has been how well they've plugged holes. But the difference between the offense, both personnel-wise and schematically, between 2006 and 2007 is drastic, much less between 2007 and that 2001 team. Brady ran an I formation offense with almost all the offensive pressure put on the run attack his first year, while 2007 and 2008 have featured very few sets featuring less than 3 wide receivers, a ton of shotgun snaps, and a spread attack style routes from the pass catchers. The difference between Josh McDaniels' offense and Charlie Weis' cannot be understated.

On one hand, what Cassell has done in his first year is almost more impressive. One less starting experience and (I personally believe) less talent, he's managed to direct a passing attack that has been top notch at times. But do not make the mistake of thinking that the one thing that drove that offense last year was Tom Brady. It wasn't. He's been there since 2001. The difference was schematic and it was the added personnel.