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View Full Version : Roethlisberger Ties Record for most wins in his first 5 seasons...


Mr. Stiller
11-30-2008, 07:45 PM
49 - Ben Roethlisberger (2004-2008)*
48 - Otto Graham (1950-54)
48 - Dan Marino (1983 - 1987)
48 - Tom Brady (2000-2004)
46 - John Elway (1983-1987)

Since 1950.

* Still Active.

Pretty Elite company there.


I would have posted this in the Teams section but I think it's pretty noteworthy.

bored of education
11-30-2008, 07:46 PM
Big Ben is awesome.

Mr. Stiller
11-30-2008, 07:51 PM
Big Ben is awesome.

I think he breaks it either against Baltimore or if we lose to Baltimore we have to have him play against Cleveland at the last game of the season.

619
11-30-2008, 07:52 PM
Aye the over glorified game manager. Good for him. :rolleyes:

Babylon
11-30-2008, 07:57 PM
48 - Otto Graham (1950-54)
48 - Dan Marino (1983 - 1987)
48 - Tom Brady (2000-2004)
48 - Ben Roethlisberger (2004-2008)*
46 - John Elway (1983-1987)

Since 1950.

* Still Active.

Pretty Elite company there.


I would have posted this in the Teams section but I think it's pretty noteworthy.

Back in the 50s i think they only played 12 games a year for what that's worth.

Mr. Stiller
11-30-2008, 08:07 PM
Back in the 50s i think they only played 12 games a year for what that's worth.

Yeah,

But looking it up... Even though Graham did a heck of job winning 48 games in 5 seasons missing 20 games (Vs. current Starters)...

Graham was drafted in 1944 by Detroit.

Graham had 6 seasons in the AAFC before the NFL was formed (1950)...

So in all fairness he wasn't a rookie. And he was on the Browns of the 40's/50's that were absolutely unstoppable.

Twiddler
11-30-2008, 08:12 PM
That's cool I guess. But I hate when QB's get too much credit for this kind of stuff.

Mr. Stiller
11-30-2008, 08:17 PM
That's cool I guess. But I hate when QB's get too much credit for this kind of stuff.

Yeah I can see that criticism.

The team loses together, but the QB wins.

At the same time, 3 of those QB's are HOF'ers.. Brady likely will be too. As much as Roethlisberger is playing great and is a machine, he's going to have to have atleast 2 more rings to win if he doesn't start putting up huge numbers.

tjsunstein
11-30-2008, 08:37 PM
Good for Roethlisberger. He's in good company there. But like mentioned above, he'll have to do more in general to join them in the elite status.

Mr. Stiller
11-30-2008, 08:54 PM
Good for Roethlisberger. He's in good company there. But like mentioned above, he'll have to do more in general to join them in the elite status.

I agree.

I think he has the potential but I see him as a mix of Elway/Aikman.

Aikman's efficiency/Management with Elways style of play/Arm...

Now I know that sounds contradictory but, thats how his playstyle looks. My question is, can he take that next step and be like Elway and lead his team by putting them on the back.

He's won his last 3 games and thrown 30+ Times in each of them....

Though with how he played today he looked like 05/07 Ben, dodging Pats and making plays out of the Pocket.

captainjack27
11-30-2008, 08:57 PM
Aye the over glorified game manager. Good for him. :rolleyes:

Clearly you haven't watched him the last two years...


2004 98.1 196 cmp 295 att 66.4% 2621 yds 17tds 11 ints

2005 98.6 168 cmp 268 att 62.7% 2385 yds 17tds 9 ints

2006 75.4 280 cmp 469 att 59.7% 3513 yds 18tds 23 ints

2007 104.1 264 cmp 404 att 65.3% 3154 yds 32tds 11 ints


stats really tend to differ with what you say. average of completions and attempts has nearly doubled. and significant increases in yards. Most definitely he's a game manager... :rolleyes:

tjsunstein
11-30-2008, 09:06 PM
Clearly you haven't watched him the last two years...


2004 98.1 196 cmp 295 att 66.4% 2621 yds 17tds 11 ints

2005 98.6 168 cmp 268 att 62.7% 2385 yds 17tds 9 ints

2006 75.4 280 cmp 469 att 59.7% 3513 yds 18tds 23 ints

2007 104.1 264 cmp 404 att 65.3% 3154 yds 32tds 11 ints


stats really tend to differ with what you say. average of completions and attempts has nearly doubled. and significant increases in yards. Most definitely he's a game manager... :rolleyes:

Byron Leftwich could win on this team.
Although, Ben has stepped it up but I don't think his team completely relies on him to win games by himself and that's not discrediting him at all because he is a great NFL quarterback. We're just saying that in order for him to get the same recognition as the company that he needs to be more heavily relied on. Unfortunately, his team's style doesnt allow for that and thus he will need more rings to get the same recognition.

captainjack27
11-30-2008, 09:21 PM
Byron Leftwich could win on this team.
Although, Ben has stepped it up but I don't think his team completely relies on him to win games by himself and that's not discrediting him at all because he is a great NFL quarterback. We're just saying that in order for him to get the same recognition as the company that he needs to be more heavily relied on. Unfortunately, his team's style doesnt allow for that and thus he will need more rings to get the same recognition.

Completely agrees with that. By no means am I calling him an elite QB. He's getting there but theres plenty of work to be done. I'm saying he's well more than a game manager at this point in his career

MaxV
11-30-2008, 09:54 PM
Wait.

Brady only played in 1 game during his rookie season.

He is still tied for the record? That's impressive.

619
11-30-2008, 09:57 PM
Clearly you haven't watched him the last two years...

I know I was kidding. Last season is probably when he dispatched that game manager label for good. He earned his big offseason contract, I'll give him that.

captainjack27
11-30-2008, 09:59 PM
I know I was kidding. Last season is probably when he dispatched that game manager label for good. He earned his big offseason contract, I'll give him that.

sorry i got confused by the rolleyes.

MetSox17
11-30-2008, 11:32 PM
Pittsburgh has had a good run game and defense the minute Roethlisberger got on the field, so i don't put much merit into W's. He's not very good at all. If i were a team needing a quarterback right now, i'd pick about fourteen guys before Roethlisberger.

Mr. Stiller
11-30-2008, 11:34 PM
Pittsburgh has had a good run game and defense the minute Roethlisberger got on the field, so i don't put much merit into W's. He's not very good at all. If i were a team needing a quarterback right now, i'd pick about fourteen guys before Roethlisberger.

So has Romo? So Have a ton of other guys.

tjsunstein
11-30-2008, 11:38 PM
Pittsburgh has had a good run game and defense the minute Roethlisberger got on the field, so i don't put much merit into W's. He's not very good at all. If i were a team needing a quarterback right now, i'd pick about fourteen guys before Roethlisberger.

Just because the team around you is good, that makes you less good?

MetSox17
11-30-2008, 11:41 PM
Just because the team around you is good, that makes you less good?

I never said he was any good in the first place, so how am i making him less good?

Wins =/= Being good.

He has ridden the defense and run game to a lot of those wins, which is why i don't give a crap about wins.

So has Romo? So Have a ton of other guys.

Okay? How is that in any way relevant to what i said?

tjsunstein
11-30-2008, 11:52 PM
I dont get it, what point are you trying to make?

MetSox17
11-30-2008, 11:56 PM
That Ben Roethlisberger is a above average quarterback, and nothing more.

Zyro_1014
11-30-2008, 11:57 PM
Pittsburgh has had a good run game and defense the minute Roethlisberger got on the field, so i don't put much merit into W's. He's not very good at all. If i were a team needing a quarterback right now, i'd pick about fourteen guys before Roethlisberger.

who are the 14 in front of him? lol

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 12:00 AM
who are the 14 in front of him? lol

Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Carson Palmer (yes, he's still more talented)
Peyton Manning
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Tony Romo
Eli Manning
Donovan McNabb
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Matt Hasselbeck

Bruce Banner
12-01-2008, 12:05 AM
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Carson Palmer (yes, he's still more talented)
Peyton Manning
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Tony Romo
Eli Manning
Donovan McNabb
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Matt Hasselbeck

People will question the bolded above. Remember people, he said "right now". Not talking about a QBOTF.

But TBH, I wouldn't question those at all. Big Ben is just.....aloof. Taking decades to make reads, putting himself at risk constantly, etc.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 12:15 AM
That Ben Roethlisberger is a above average quarterback, and nothing more.

I can agree with that but the system he is in is a perfect fit making him a great quarterback for his team.

Menardo75
12-01-2008, 12:17 AM
Congradulations to him that's awesome.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 12:20 AM
People will question the bolded above. Remember people, he said "right now". Not talking about a QBOTF.

But TBH, I wouldn't question those at all. Big Ben is just.....aloof. Taking decades to make reads, putting himself at risk constantly, etc.

Yeah, i made sure i put "right now" to avoid any "ZOMGZ Brett Farve is 48!!!111 LOL".

One of the few things people think he has going for him is a "strong" arm, but to be honest, i hardly see him make any throws that make me say "wow" at his ability to zip the ball in tight spaces. He floats way too many balls. He's just... there. Not anything i'd fight over.

d34ng3l021
12-01-2008, 12:52 AM
Yeah. The Steelers OL gets a lot of flack for giving up sacks, but how about Roethlisberger actually going through his reads and making the throws after a 3 or 5 step drop? He holds onto the ball for way too long. That hurts him a ton as a QB.

Mr. Stiller
12-01-2008, 01:44 AM
It's evident that Roethlisberger will never get respect for what he does.

Troy Aikman is going to be a HOF'er and he's done less than Roethlisberger has and frankly I see them having almost similar career paths.

DMWSackMachine
12-01-2008, 02:15 AM
Two things to say here:

1) Metsox, bro, I usually feel you on most topics...but I think you are incredibly full of **** on this one. Roethlisberger has already established himself as an elite QB in this league. Now, if he doesn't get it back together soon he might lose the place he's made for himself, but lets not be confused. With the exception of his one really bad season (06), he has been an elite passer since coming into the league. Has he benefitted from having a perfect system in place around him? Without a doubt. But he's still a top QB. Great measurables, excellent leadership qualities, fairly smart. Could stand to be more of a student of the game, imo, but he's a top notch QB now. Even thought his year hasn't shown it.

2) Stiller, where are you getting off acting like he never gets credit? Earlier this year ESPN ran a "young QBs" feature on their website and Ben was tabbed as the best young QB in the game. Everyone was riding his jock. Just like they have ever since he's been in the league. Yet here you are acting like he gets disrespected and put down constantly. I don't understand where you're coming from. If Ben continues to win games and keep his team in contention for the next 8-10 years, he will get in the HOF. Book that.

Smooth Criminal
12-01-2008, 07:33 AM
So hes a future HoF QB, yet saying theres 14 QBs above him is giving him credit for what hes done?

This board hated Ben. Everywhere else knows what Ben can do and gives him credit for what hes done in his first 5 seasons.

bigbluedefense
12-01-2008, 07:41 AM
i never understood why its so bad to be a game manager. thats what wins football games in december and january, when it counts.

Ben is a good qb, but sometimes i feel the Steelers win despite him. I think theyre a SB team this year, but I can also see Ben screwing up in the playoffs and costing them a SB appearance. It all really rests on his shoulders.

That defense is insane. I love that defense. Easily the best in the league imo.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 08:01 AM
Two things to say here:

1) Metsox, bro, I usually feel you on most topics...but I think you are incredibly full of **** on this one. Roethlisberger has already established himself as an elite QB in this league. Now, if he doesn't get it back together soon he might lose the place he's made for himself, but lets not be confused. With the exception of his one really bad season (06), he has been an elite passer since coming into the league. Has he benefitted from having a perfect system in place around him? Without a doubt. But he's still a top QB. Great measurables, excellent leadership qualities, fairly smart. Could stand to be more of a student of the game, imo, but he's a top notch QB now. Even thought his year hasn't shown it.


We're not always gonna be in agreement, but i don't see how my opinions are so far away from yours. There is no way in hell this guy is an "elite" quarterback. I reserve that term from guys that can single handedly win games, and Roethlisberger is not that guy. Aside from last year, he was never really that well of a passer, and even then, last year a lot of his big plays were his WR's making great catches on inaccurate balls. For a guy touted for his arm strength, his arm isn't that strong. He underthrows a ton of deep balls, his intermediate stuff has no zip, and he takes 15 minutes to make a decision on where he's going with the ball.

He gains a lot of praise for his team winning, but he's not that big of a part of that winning. Does he do what is asked of him and does he put his team in a position to win? Yes, of course. He has shown that time and time again. Does that make him a great quarterback? Absolutely not.

619
12-01-2008, 10:04 AM
To be fair ppl are always looking for those "elite" guys to win you games but as some teams have proven this season especially, it's not exactly a necessity to becoming championship calibur as long as you have the great run game and top defense. So in that sense I'd probably have to agree with what BBD said. I'll take an Eli Manning over many guys if I know that means he won't cost me in December and January when it counts most.

awfullyquiet
12-01-2008, 11:08 AM
two fantastic game managers in the game today:

eli manning.
ben rothesburger.

both living off the success of their defense and strong running games.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 12:51 PM
Roethlisberger is what he is. An above average game manager. For all the beef i give Eli Manning, i'd take him any day over Roethlisberger. He's more talented and has shown that is clutch, and not just a production of his team's superior talent in almost every other facet of football.

Like i said before, for one season, i'd take fourteen guys before i took Roethlisberger.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-01-2008, 02:47 PM
Roethlisberger is what he is. An above average game manager. For all the beef i give Eli Manning, i'd take him any day over Roethlisberger. He's more talented and has shown that is clutch, and not just a production of his team's superior talent in almost every other facet of football.

Like i said before, for one season, i'd take fourteen guys before i took Roethlisberger.

I respect Big Ben and his abilities, but he really did come into a great situation with great coaches. You had Cowher, Whisenhunt, Russ Grimm as the OL coach, and a legend as your DC.

And yes you do give Eli grief! : P

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 02:52 PM
And yes you do give Eli grief! : P

Only when certain people think he's the second best quarterback in the NFL. :D

NY+Giants=NYG
12-01-2008, 02:56 PM
Only when certain people think he's the second best quarterback in the NFL. :D

Well then that's bad on their part too to be fair. lol.

BrownsTown
12-01-2008, 02:57 PM
A game manager equates to 32 TDs and 11 INTs? Damn, where can I get me a game manager?

Obviously he's having a bit of a down year but few people wouldn't behind that line.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-01-2008, 02:58 PM
two fantastic game managers in the game today:

eli manning.
ben rothesburger.

both living off the success of their defense and strong running games.

That's incorrect. One got better because he has a new OC and new QB coach. The old OC just won the Grey Cup in Canada as the HC. That's what happens when you draft a QB and put him to develop with an idiot. The whole team's success was because we fired Hufangel and Tim Lewis.

But in general the whole game manager concept being looked down upon is dumb even in its own right. Alot of clubs would love game managers.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 03:01 PM
A game manager equates to 32 TDs and 11 INTs? Damn, where can I get me a game manager?

Obviously he's having a bit of a down year but few people wouldn't behind that line.

Roethlisberger makes that line look worse than it actually is. It's bad, but Ben makes it look down right nasty.

Eaglez.Fan
12-01-2008, 03:05 PM
Clearly you haven't watched him the last two years...

How is Big Ben having a good year this year?

13 TDs with 12 INTs, only 2,412 yards, 200 yards per game and is averaging 7 yards a pass.

Those stats would not put him in the top 15 in any of those categories.

vidae
12-01-2008, 03:06 PM
If you're a team RIGHT NOW you'd take Favre and Warner over Ben? How? Favre has a year left, maybe, and Warner isn't far behind him.

If you're a team that needs a QB, you look for the future, not for one year. I agree with you on about 5 of those 14 names, and of course everyone will be different, but some of those names make no sense to me.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 03:13 PM
If you're a team RIGHT NOW you'd take Favre and Warner over Ben? How? Favre has a year left, maybe, and Warner isn't far behind him.

If you're a team that needs a QB, you look for the future, not for one year. I agree with you on about 5 of those 14 names, and of course everyone will be different, but some of those names make no sense to me.

Re-read the post before you reply to it. I said for one season. And i specifically put that there, hoping that someone would actually read the entire post before replying, but it was obviously too much to ask for from some of you all.

captainjack27
12-01-2008, 03:33 PM
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Carson Palmer (yes, he's still more talented)
Peyton Manning
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Tony Romo
Eli Manning
Donovan McNabb
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Matt Hasselbeck

Hasselbeck Cutler mcnabb rodgers and Matt Ryan(Playing awesome, great potential, but still a rookie and benefits from a great run game also) all made me bust out laughing. Thank you I needed that. How can you honestly list Hasselbeck, Cutler and McNabb...three of the most inconsistent QBs this year? Ben has struggled, but they've been against very tough teams. I'll give most of those on your list. But the five I listed, particularly the first three...are ridiculous.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 03:35 PM
Hasselbeck Cutler mcnabb rodgers and Matt Ryan(Playing awesome, great potential, but still a rookie and benefits from a great run game also) all made me bust out laughing. Thank you I needed that. How can you honestly list Hasselbeck, Cutler and McNabb...three of the most inconsistent QBs this year? Ben has struggled, but they've been against very tough teams. I'll give most of those on your list. But the five I listed, particularly the first three...are ridiculous.

You put Cutler in Pittsburgh and see what you get. Hasselbeck has been one of the most consistent quarterbacks in the league despite having the worst WR corps in all of football for so long.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 03:50 PM
Hasselbeck Cutler mcnabb rodgers and Matt Ryan(Playing awesome, great potential, but still a rookie and benefits from a great run game also) all made me bust out laughing. Thank you I needed that. How can you honestly list Hasselbeck, Cutler and McNabb...three of the most inconsistent QBs this year? Ben has struggled, but they've been against very tough teams. I'll give most of those on your list. But the five I listed, particularly the first three...are ridiculous.

I'd take Rodgers over Big Ben this year if I had to pick a QB for the Packers. And Big Ben over Rodgers if I had to pick a QB for the Steelers. It all depends on the players around you and system you're in before you're gonna decide who you want as your QB, if even for one year.

P-L
12-01-2008, 03:52 PM
Last year was Ben's only great year. Sorry, but there is no way in hell he is an elite quarterback. A very good one? Sure, but not elite. There is no way you can tell me he's on par with Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees. I wouldn't even put him on top of the second tier, probably in the 6-10 range (and NO, the 6-10 range is not elite).

captainjack27
12-01-2008, 03:53 PM
I'd take Rodgers over Big Ben this year if I had to pick a QB for the Packers. And Big Ben over Rodgers if I had to pick a QB for the Steelers. It all depends on the players around you and system you're in before you're gonna decide who you want as your QB, if even for one year.

I think rodgers is a good QB, but in his first year starting I'm not going to rank him ahead of Ben. I think if he can consistently repeat his numbers, I'll put him ahead.

captainjack27
12-01-2008, 03:54 PM
Last year was Ben's only great year. Sorry, but there is no way in hell he is an elite quarterback. A very good one? Sure, but not elite. There is no way you can tell me he's on par with Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Drew Brees. I wouldn't even put him on top of the second tier, probably in the 6-10 range (and NO, the 6-10 range is not elite).


I don't think anyone's calling him elite, I completely agree that you need to be top 3 to be elite, bens nowhere near that, but he's still a very good QB.

Mr. Stiller
12-01-2008, 07:56 PM
Roethlisberger makes that line look worse than it actually is. It's bad, but Ben makes it look down right nasty.

Yeah, Ben definitely makes the line Worse when the OL Has had 2 new Starters (Franchise LT and our 4 year RG) Get injured. He's had a different Center the last 3 years.

2007 we lost Cowher, Grimm, Whisenhunt, Whipple, etc.
2008 we lost Alan Faneca in FA and Marvel Smith/Kendall Simmons to injuries.

But constant turmoil on the OL isn't to blame, It's all Roethlisberger. And while yes, he holds the ball too long (Which he hasn't been doing the last 4-6 games, showing TRUE improvement), but He also has shown he's the best QB at making a huge play when the line Breaks down.

One of the few things people think he has going for him is a "strong" arm, but to be honest, i hardly see him make any throws that make me say "wow" at his ability to zip the ball in tight spaces. He floats way too many balls. He's just... there. Not anything i'd fight over.

I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Mario Williams Seperated his Throwing Shoulder in Week 1.

Ben was throwing Beautiful on Target/stride 40-50 yard passes last year. This year it was obvious that injury has had him struggling with his Throwing ability.


You're such a biased hater.

giantsfan
12-01-2008, 08:02 PM
Big Ben's a good QB in the second tier. He's right up there with Romo, Eli, Cutler, Rivers, etc.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 08:05 PM
Yeah, Ben definitely makes the line Worse when the OL Has had 2 new Starters (Franchise LT and our 4 year RG) Get injured. He's had a different Center the last 3 years.

2007 we lost Cowher, Grimm, Whisenhunt, Whipple, etc.
2008 we lost Alan Faneca in FA and Marvel Smith/Kendall Simmons to injuries.

But constant turmoil on the OL isn't to blame, It's all Roethlisberger. And while yes, he holds the ball too long (Which he hasn't been doing the last 4-6 games, showing TRUE improvement), but He also has shown he's the best QB at making a huge play when the line Breaks down.


I'm sure that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that Mario Williams Seperated his Throwing Shoulder in Week 1.

Ben was throwing Beautiful on Target/stride 40-50 yard passes last year. This year it was obvious that injury has had him struggling with his Throwing ability.


You're such a biased hater.

LOL how am i a biased hater? I'm offering my objective opinion on a guy i see plenty of. You jumping on every steelers related thread and rambling how they're teh bestestz is what's ridiculous.

Look at your post. Full of excuses.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 08:05 PM
Big Ben's a good QB in the second tier. He's right up there with Romo, Eli, Cutler, Rivers, etc.

All those guys you mentioned are a lot better than him.

d34ng3l021
12-01-2008, 08:06 PM
But constant turmoil on the OL isn't to blame, It's all Roethlisberger. And while yes, he holds the ball too long (Which he hasn't been doing the last 4-6 games, showing TRUE improvement), but He also has shown he's the best QB at making a huge play when the line Breaks down.

Damn. Mr. Stiller means business when he capitalizes the H in He. Roethlisberger = God?

Question though. Since when did the Steelers get a franchise LT? I was unaware.

Bruce Banner
12-01-2008, 08:07 PM
Metsox has no reason to be biased unless the Steelers fans on this board have gotten to him.

(They've gotten to me)

and I agree, the aforementioned QBs are all much better than Ben.

steelernation77
12-01-2008, 08:09 PM
Metsox has no reason to be biased unless the Steelers fans on this board have gotten to him eventually.

(They've gotten to me)

and I agree, the aforementioned QBs are all much better than Ben.

see NFL MVP thread

Bruce Banner
12-01-2008, 08:10 PM
see NFL MVP thread

I almost had a stroke visiting that thread.

I'll never go back!

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 08:10 PM
Metsox has no reason to be biased unless the Steelers fans on this board have gotten to him eventually.

(They've gotten to me)

and I agree, the aforementioned QBs are all much better than Ben.

Exactly. What do i have against the Steelers?

Stiller, specifically, is the one i'm getting pretty tired of. Every post talks about how the Pittsburgh equivalent of the conversation you're having is better than who you're talking about.

Bruce Banner
12-01-2008, 08:13 PM
Allow me to rephrase.

Not ALL Steelers fans have gotten to me. Just a few goobers.

but I'm sure that I have done/am doing the same to others.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 08:16 PM
Allow me to rephrase.

Not ALL Steelers fans have gotten to me. Just a few goobers.

but I'm sure that I have done/am doing the same to others.

The only difference is that you don't sound like a complete knucklehead when you make your points.

dhp318
12-01-2008, 08:17 PM
I can only barely call him above average after watching him this season. He holds onto the ball for way too long and puts himself in a position to get sacked too often. He has good pocket awareness which allows him to avoid sacks (or he's just really, really big), but still, not smart to hold onto the ball as long as he does. He makes random bad decisions, as evidenced by his 12 interceptions as opposed to his 13 tds.

I remember one game where he threw the ball for a 1st down while being dragged down for a potential sack. Good play? Maybe that time, but 1/3 times that's a fumble.

captainjack27
12-01-2008, 08:18 PM
All those guys you mentioned are a lot better than him.

Explain to me why they're A LOT better.

giantsfan
12-01-2008, 08:18 PM
All those guys you mentioned are a lot better than him.

I don't think so. His oline has been atrocious which has made his tendency to hold onto the ball even more of a problem than it really is, although he has been adjusting that this season. I think he's done a good job and last year showed he can really be exceptional if he just gets his play to that level consistently. But that said with his defense and RBs (when healthy) he'll never need to be Peyton and carry his team exclusively so people will always hate on him, just like people will always hate on Eli because we have a great running game and strong D.

Bruce Banner
12-01-2008, 08:19 PM
Explain to me why they're A LOT better.

too much effort!

but srsly.

too much effort.

they just are.

illmatic74
12-01-2008, 08:23 PM
Ben Rothelisberger was one of the best Quarterbacks in the league last year. This year even though the Steelers have been winning he is not having a great year. His major flaw of holding on to the ball too long has gotten absurd this year. Also he has thrown some bad picks.

MetSox17
12-01-2008, 08:23 PM
too much effort!

but srsly.

too much effort.

they just are.

Yeah, i'm really done discussing this. Obviously Steelers fans are never gonna budge off Ben's jock, so i'm through.

Mr. Stiller
12-01-2008, 08:45 PM
Yeah, i'm really done discussing this. Obviously Steelers fans are never gonna budge off Ben's jock, so i'm through.

And you're never going to go into a conversation about a Steeler without trying to completely undermine they're accomplishments.

I don't know your bag, but, you're seriously a hater.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 08:53 PM
I think rodgers is a good QB, but in his first year starting I'm not going to rank him ahead of Ben. I think if he can consistently repeat his numbers, I'll put him ahead.

I'm not ranking him ahead of Big Ben just yet either but in terms of systems they are in and molded for I wouldnt trade even if Big Ben is the consesus better quarterback overall. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Anyone get it? How about this? You can't just say one quarterback is better than the other just looking at the numbers aside from the obvious ones.. Brady, Manning, and such. It all depends on the system and if you were to just sub out Big Ben and implement him as the QB of the Packers he wouldn't be nearly the type of tier quarterback as he is. Big Ben is a good fit where he is, and I think he'll be a Steeler forever. But there are some quarterbacks that can adjust to different styles of football and they're the best. Manning can play game manager as well as game changer. Brady can as well and in a couple years I think Romo will be that kind of versatile guy but Big Ben isnt a game changer at this point in his career, just a game manager. Listen, I'm not knocking Big Ben at all. All I'm saying is that the style that these quarterbacks you guys are mentioning are sent out there to do different things. Big Ben is required to do less, but the team wins.

giantsfan
12-01-2008, 08:56 PM
Big Ben was a game changer last year, for what it's worth. I understand exactly what you're saying but Big Ben has done more than just manage games I don't think holding his strong D against him makes too much sense, what do you want him to do leave his D with short fields so they aren't as good, forcing him to win games on his own? Sure what guys like Cutler and Brees have done/are doing is impressive, winning without a defense, but a good team with a strong D will naturally be more careful because they can rely on their D which will negatively impact a QB's stats.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 09:00 PM
Big Ben was a game changer last year, for what it's worth. I understand exactly what you're saying but Big Ben has done more than just manage games I don't think holding his strong D against him makes too much sense, what do you want him to do leave his D with short fields so they aren't as good, forcing him to win games on his own? Sure what guys like Cutler and Brees have done/are doing is impressive, winning without a defense, but a good team with a strong D will naturally be more careful because they can rely on their D which will negatively impact a QB's stats.
I'm not trying to knock Big Ben at all but ultimately trying to say is that just because Big Ben is asked to do less doesn't mean he's of lesser capability. It's just him doing his job and winning games and that kind of style of football will never get the due credit of the typical stat lookers.

Mr. Stiller
12-01-2008, 09:04 PM
I'm not trying to knock Big Ben at all but ultimately trying to say is that just because Big Ben is asked to do less doesn't mean he's of lesser capability. It's just him doing his job and winning games and that kind of style of football will never get the due credit of the typical stat lookers.

Serious question. Looking at the last 3 games.. what has he been asked to do less? We've been trying to let him Lead the team more, resulting in him breaking the dreaded "25 passes per game" mark quite often. Including his last 3 wins.


I think Whats making Ben look worse right now is the ungodly amount of drops every week.

Ward was great this week but our Receivers seem to drop 1 pass for every 2 decent catches. Like they went to the Ike Taylor/Carlos Rogers school of Receiving.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 09:24 PM
Serious question. Looking at the last 3 games.. what has he been asked to do less? We've been trying to let him Lead the team more, resulting in him breaking the dreaded "25 passes per game" mark quite often. Including his last 3 wins.


I think Whats making Ben look worse right now is the ungodly amount of drops every week.

Ward was great this week but our Receivers seem to drop 1 pass for every 2 decent catches. Like they went to the Ike Taylor/Carlos Rogers school of Receiving.

The post of mine that you quoted agrees with you to the fullest extent.

captainjack27
12-01-2008, 09:27 PM
Yeah, i'm really done discussing this. Obviously Steelers fans are never gonna budge off Ben's jock, so i'm through.

No, if you have a good reason, please explain why? Anyone can just say someone is better. If you're reasons are good, then you are right. If not, what makes you're opinion any more valid than the steeler fans reasons?

captainjack27
12-01-2008, 09:29 PM
I'm not ranking him ahead of Big Ben just yet either but in terms of systems they are in and molded for I wouldnt trade even if Big Ben is the consesus better quarterback overall. I'm not sure if that makes sense. Anyone get it? How about this? You can't just say one quarterback is better than the other just looking at the numbers aside from the obvious ones.. Brady, Manning, and such. It all depends on the system and if you were to just sub out Big Ben and implement him as the QB of the Packers he wouldn't be nearly the type of tier quarterback as he is. Big Ben is a good fit where he is, and I think he'll be a Steeler forever. But there are some quarterbacks that can adjust to different styles of football and they're the best. Manning can play game manager as well as game changer. Brady can as well and in a couple years I think Romo will be that kind of versatile guy but Big Ben isnt a game changer at this point in his career, just a game manager. Listen, I'm not knocking Big Ben at all. All I'm saying is that the style that these quarterbacks you guys are mentioning are sent out there to do different things. Big Ben is required to do less, but the team wins.

ok that makes sense. I agree with that.

giantsfan
12-01-2008, 09:55 PM
I'm not trying to knock Big Ben at all but ultimately trying to say is that just because Big Ben is asked to do less doesn't mean he's of lesser capability. It's just him doing his job and winning games and that kind of style of football will never get the due credit of the typical stat lookers.

I agree with this post other than the notion that being on a balanced team means a player is asked to do less. I understand some guys are asked to do more because the talent isn't there on the rest of the team, but I don't think that prevents a guy from being considered elite as you ascertained in your previous post.

"But there are some quarterbacks that can adjust to different styles of football and they're the best."

In this your clearly assuming that big ben can't adjust to a different style and I disagree with that, he general isn't asked to play a more aggressive, air it out style but that's not to say he can't.

IMO what truly makes a great QB is knowing when to take over and when to play carefully, controlling the clock and not screwing over your defense. If the guy under center is able to take over when he has to that's all you really need and can ask of a guy. Big Ben has a great defense, he normally doesn't need to carry the team but when he does he steps up and delivers for them.

That said for the stat junkies out there all I have to say is be patient, wait until you see him with a rebuilt oline next season that lets him hold the ball a little longer and then you'll have your stats, just like last season he had the stats.

Hines
12-01-2008, 10:04 PM
To me, IMO, an elite quarterback is someone who wins. The stats are nice, but I would rather have a game managing quarterback who wins then a guy who can throw for 400 yards and loses.

People soon to forget that Big Ben carried his team and won the playoff games when they won the Super Bowl. Although he didnt have a great performance in the Super Bowl, he still had the key plays to make them win the game.

What Ben needs to work on is his checkdowns and getting rid of the ball earlier. I love how he can extend a play with his feet, size, and strength.

What seperates Ben from other quarterbacks, in my mind, is his toughness. He is playing with a bumb shoulder and thumb all on his throwing hand and arm. If those heal, I think he puts up numbers like he did last season.

As far as numbers, there are guys I would take over Ben. But as far as winning games, Big Ben should be at the top of everyones lists because he has proved he can win, defense or no defense. He does also lose some games for his team, which some people have issues on with discussing him in the "elite" status.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 10:05 PM
I agree with this post other than the notion that being on a balanced team means a player is asked to do less. I understand some guys are asked to do more because the talent isn't there on the rest of the team, but I don't think that prevents a guy from being considered elite as you ascertained in your previous post.

I'm saying that just because he is asked to do less doesn't mean he isn't capable of doing more, it's just not required. He's elite in the system he is in and to follow on your next statement...

"But there are some quarterbacks that can adjust to different styles of football and they're the best."

In this your clearly assuming that big ben can't adjust to a different style and I disagree with that, he general isn't asked to play a more aggressive, air it out style but that's not to say he can't.

I meant that he wouldn't eb as effecient as those guys because he holds onto the ball too long. Doesn't mean he isn't capable but when comparing him to guys doing it right now, I don't think Big Ben matches up favorably.

IMO what truly makes a great QB is knowing when to take over and when to play carefully, controlling the clock and not screwing over your defense. If the guy under center is able to take over when he has to that's all you really need and can ask of a guy. Big Ben has a great defense, he normally doesn't need to carry the team but when he does he steps up and delivers for them.

I haven't seen a time where Big Ben needed to come down the field and score with less than 3 minutes to go with the game on the line. That's to further clarify my definition of taking over a game. He may be able or he may not be able to. I have just never seen it or recall it. I just don't think that Big Ben can control the game with the pass like that. I will gladly admit I'm wrong there if it has happened but I don't remember it therefore biasing my opinion. I know that Aaron Rodgers is unable to do that just yet but he can manage the other 57 minutes pretty well. (Homer points.)

That said for the stat junkies out there all I have to say is be patient, wait until you see him with a rebuilt oline next season that lets him hold the ball a little longer and then you'll have your stats, just like last season he had the stats.

My responses in bold.

Mr. Stiller
12-01-2008, 10:21 PM
My responses in bold.

I can't remember the exact amount But I'm fairly certain Ben has quite a few game winning drives in the 4th quarter.

Whether he capped it off with a field goal or a TD, or a Kneel I guess that would deflate the argument, but a recent example would be the Chargers game.

We're losing 10-8. Ben walks them down the field.

Going 6/6 62 yards

and with Cowher ball... 101-1-1 after leading by 11+ at the half. The fact is, a lot of times we had to come back to win after leading by 11 at the half.

giantsfan
12-01-2008, 10:27 PM
To me, IMO, an elite quarterback is someone who wins. The stats are nice, but I would rather have a game managing quarterback who wins then a guy who can throw for 400 yards and loses.

People soon to forget that Big Ben carried his team and won the playoff games when they won the Super Bowl. Although he didnt have a great performance in the Super Bowl, he still had the key plays to make them win the game.

What Ben needs to work on is his checkdowns and getting rid of the ball earlier. I love how he can extend a play with his feet, size, and strength.

What seperates Ben from other quarterbacks, in my mind, is his toughness. He is playing with a bumb shoulder and thumb all on his throwing hand and arm. If those heal, I think he puts up numbers like he did last season.

As far as numbers, there are guys I would take over Ben. But as far as winning games, Big Ben should be at the top of everyones lists because he has proved he can win, defense or no defense. He does also lose some games for his team, which some people have issues on with discussing him in the "elite" status.

Wins is just as faulty as statistics in measuring QB success, there are plenty of mediocre QBs who are carried to wins by their team, Wins are important if the QB drives his team down the field for the win and thus can be largely credited for the victory but just using wins is a flawed approach. I love stats in 2 minute drill situations and when the team is down in the fourth quarter to give an estimate of how well a QB is performing.

As for the toughness point that really doesn't get too much credit for a QB, Eli played last season with a bum shoulder, he was projected to miss months if not the season by outsiders and didn't miss a game, do we count that towards eli being a good player? nope, noone except giants fans even remember that. Toughness is great to have in your QB but no one acknowledges that as a significant difference, as a final tiebreaker between QBs it works but it's down the list, most QBs are tough and very few of the elite ones actually miss games due to any injures that aren't potentially season ending.

I still maintain that Big Ben is certainly in that second tier of QBs and he has issues that prevent him from truly being consider a league wide elite QB.

My responses in bold.

I disagree that big ben wouldn't be just as efficient as tony romo playing behind that oline in dallas, or Kurt Warner with all that receiving talent. Would he be as effective as Drew Brees in NO were everything they do revolves around him or Peyton in Indy? No, but that's why he's in the second tier and not the top tier with Brady, Peyton and Brees.

This season hasn't been a very good one for Big Ben's personal achievements but I think last season you saw him airing it out and really being the engine for that offense that shows he can be that guy if you build the system around him, he's not being asked to be that guy now because the oline is atrocious and he's been banged up already, but if they fix their oline we'll see what he's capable of next year.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 10:49 PM
I can't remember the exact amount But I'm fairly certain Ben has quite a few game winning drives in the 4th quarter.

Whether he capped it off with a field goal or a TD, or a Kneel I guess that would deflate the argument, but a recent example would be the Chargers game.

We're losing 10-8. Ben walks them down the field.

Going 6/6 62 yards

and with Cowher ball... 101-1-1 after leading by 11+ at the half. The fact is, a lot of times we had to come back to win after leading by 11 at the half.

I'll take your word for it. Cowher ball is attributed to more than the Quarterback though.

I still maintain that Big Ben is certainly in that second tier of QBs and he has issues that prevent him from truly being consider a league wide elite QB.

I disagree that big ben wouldn't be just as efficient as tony romo playing behind that oline in dallas, or Kurt Warner with all that receiving talent. Would he be as effective as Drew Brees in NO were everything they do revolves around him or Peyton in Indy? No, but that's why he's in the second tier and not the top tier with Brady, Peyton and Brees.

This season hasn't been a very good one for Big Ben's personal achievements but I think last season you saw him airing it out and really being the engine for that offense that shows he can be that guy if you build the system around him, he's not being asked to be that guy now because the oline is atrocious and he's been banged up already, but if they fix their oline we'll see what he's capable of next year.

I absolutely agree with that bolded statement.

I don't think that Ben would be as effecient in a different scheme because of how the defense would prepare for him. They prepare for the Steelers offense right now, not Ben. Until it's seen it's a matter of opinion although there are stats saying he can, there are also factors that alter those stats.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 10:50 PM
What just happened here? A civilized discussion? Say it ain't so.

giantsfan
12-01-2008, 10:58 PM
What about his last season didn't you like, he threw the ball a lot and while the defense was strong that team really cruised along because of big ben offensively. I'd say he was playing a different style, and I think that was what Mike Tomlin wanted to do until he realized that with that offensively Big Ben might just get broken in half if he let the offense revolve around ben holding the ball and making plays down the field.

tjsunstein
12-01-2008, 11:51 PM
What about his last season didn't you like, he threw the ball a lot and while the defense was strong that team really cruised along because of big ben offensively. I'd say he was playing a different style, and I think that was what Mike Tomlin wanted to do until he realized that with that offensively Big Ben might just get broken in half if he let the offense revolve around ben holding the ball and making plays down the field.

Last season isn't fresh in my mind. He's had the same problem though, holding on to the ball too long.

giantsfan
12-02-2008, 12:39 AM
Last season isn't fresh in my mind. He's had the same problem though, holding on to the ball too long.

True but if he had the oline other elite QBs have that would be far less of a problem.

Giantsfan1080
12-02-2008, 12:43 AM
If Eli goes 2-2 the rest of the year he'll have 43 wins in 4.5 years. Couldn't have gone wrong with either of them but I'm glad, real glad, we have Eli as my QB instead of Big Ben.

steelersfan43
12-02-2008, 12:46 AM
Eli sucked up until the second half of last year. Im glad we have ben.

giantsfan
12-02-2008, 12:50 AM
Eli sucked up until the second half of last year. Im glad we have ben.

*shakes head* Eli threw it deep to much because Hufnagel didn't realize receivers don't have to run 15 yards down the field before his QB is allowed to look at them. That resulted in a lot of forced balls that were incomplete or intercepted, now that we're finally ridding ourselves of the last remaining influences of Hufnagel on this offense you're seeing Eli flourish. Coincidence? I think so, especially when you also consider how effective eli was when they let him run the two minute drill and control the plays more.

Giantsfan1080
12-02-2008, 12:51 AM
Eli sucked up until the second half of last year. Im glad we have ben.

Eli's and Ben's stats are pretty much the same up to this point while Ben had a much better team the first 2 years. Like I said I'm glad we have Eli.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 12:58 AM
True but if he had the oline other elite QBs have that would be far less of a problem.

Its actually more because of his decision making that he holds the ball too long. He doesnt throw the ball when recievers break but instead when they have to be wide open.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 12:59 AM
If Eli goes 2-2 the rest of the year he'll have 43 wins in 4.5 years. Couldn't have gone wrong with either of them but I'm glad, real glad, we have Eli as my QB instead of Big Ben.

What about poor Phillip Rivers?

Ness
12-02-2008, 01:06 AM
Good for him, but I really don't think it's a big deal. This is a team sport. If he was on the Arizona Cardinals I really don't think he would have so many wins.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 01:07 AM
Good for him, but I really don't think it's a big deal. This is a team sport. If he was on the Arizona Cardinals I really don't think he would have so many wins.

Or the 49ers. :p

Ness
12-02-2008, 01:08 AM
Or the 49ers. :p

Or Green Bay. ^.~

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 09:29 AM
Eli sucked up until the second half of last year. Im glad we have ben.

Learning with a new OC and new QB coach takes time. You don't close your guys and wake up when you have these changes and have things magically work out. Just ask Alex Smith and his 4 OCs.

bored of education
12-02-2008, 09:53 AM
A wins a win IMO

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 09:57 AM
A wins a win IMO

For a team, I agree. For player recognition, it's how you win.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 10:00 AM
For a team, I agree. For player recognition, it's how you win.

And how should you win for player recognition?

MetSox17
12-02-2008, 10:10 AM
A wins a win IMO

That's what everyone said about Vince Young..

bigbluedefense
12-02-2008, 10:14 AM
One thing that really hurt Ben's case was the Skins game this year. Not only did Leftwich come in and move the ball, but he actually did a better (much better actually) job than Ben did against the Skins defense.

They might not have won that game if Ben played the whole game, he looked terrible out there. And don't blame it on the injury, Ben is notorious for exaggerating injuries to make himself excuses.

He's a good qb, and he can win you SBs which is all you ask for. But he's not top 5 like many want you to believe. Let him learn how to read a defense before we anoint him.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 10:18 AM
And how should you win for player recognition?

Well the Steelers more so win as a team. The Vikings, however win because of Peterson. That kind of concept.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 10:24 AM
Well the Steelers more so win as a team. The Vikings, however win because of Peterson. That kind of concept.

Eh, even then, Peterson can't play defense. Or am I missing something and he was part of that goal line stand against Chicago? He does well and scores point but it's a team effort. The irony is talk to any person in football and say that and that idea would get you laughed at. Football is a team game, yeah Peterson does his part very well, but without defense it doesn't matter what he does. Same with Mario Williams. He needs that offense to score or else his efforts and sacks mean nothing.

I see what you mean but it really does come down to do you win or do you lose? Players can come in great situations, which helps them, and I can see how fans can pick at that, but again, it still comes down to does your team win or do they lose? The rest is all fantasy. What if you put Carr on the Steelers, or Big Ben on the Lions, all that then becomes madden. It is what it is, I respect what Big ben has done, but personally I am not a big fan of his, though he does win. I do think he had a great situation he came into, but that's not his fault. But I can see the points raised.

That is perhaps the hardest for football fans at all levels to grasp. Yeah it's cool to have a great-elite player, but it means nothing if your team can't win. I will take a win any day and risk the haters trying to break that win down. In the end, a W is a W.

MetSox17
12-02-2008, 10:35 AM
One thing that really hurt Ben's case was the Skins game this year. Not only did Leftwich come in and move the ball, but he actually did a better (much better actually) job than Ben did against the Skins defense.

They might not have won that game if Ben played the whole game, he looked terrible out there. And don't blame it on the injury, Ben is notorious for exaggerating injuries to make himself excuses.

He's a good qb, and he can win you SBs which is all you ask for. But he's not top 5 like many want you to believe. Let him learn how to read a defense before we anoint him.

His injury "concerns" have long been dated. Even his coaches have called him out on that.

As for him winning his team Superbowls, i'd beg to differ. He looked horrible in that game, and if it weren't for terrible (and i mean disgusting) officiating, Seattle would have won handily while Roethlisberger would have easily been the goat. He played so ugly.

bigbluedefense
12-02-2008, 10:39 AM
His injury "concerns" have long been dated. Even his coaches have called him out on that.

As for him winning his team Superbowls, i'd beg to differ. He looked horrible in that game, and if it weren't for terrible (and i mean disgusting) officiating, Seattle would have won handily while Roethlisberger would have easily been the goat. He played so ugly.

I agree with you completely. But we can't change history, it happened. And I do feel that if you make him a game manager (which Pittsburgh should do with that defense), he's capable of winning you a SB. And at the end of the day, thats ultimately all you want, all you ask for.

Let's just not call him the second coming of Marino though bc of it. He's not.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 11:25 AM
Eh, even then, Peterson can't play defense. Or am I missing something and he was part of that goal line stand against Chicago? He does well and scores point but it's a team effort. The irony is talk to any person in football and say that and that idea would get you laughed at. Football is a team game, yeah Peterson does his part very well, but without defense it doesn't matter what he does. Same with Mario Williams. He needs that offense to score or else his efforts and sacks mean nothing.


I'm just saying that some players are more vital to a team's success. I completely agree that it's a team sport but realistically you have to admit that some players mean more to their team than others.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 11:31 AM
I'm just saying that some players are more vital to a team's success. I completely agree that it's a team sport but realistically you have to admit that some players mean more to their team than others.

Yeah, to a certain a point. But how will Peterson do, if his center decides he doesn't want to block the 1 technique? Or how about if a LT decides he doesn't want block for the QB? I think there are "sexy" positions in football that fans like. Basically all the skill positions, and I think those are the positions where you see production which translates via stats. I think that can be misinterpreted as one player being valuable than another. But that value via stats comes from a player who needs others to do their job, so he can do his and get value, which comes in yards, TDs, and all that other fun stuff people love throwing around on here.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-02-2008, 11:38 AM
Hasselbeck Cutler mcnabb rodgers and Matt Ryan(Playing awesome, great potential, but still a rookie and benefits from a great run game also) all made me bust out laughing. Thank you I needed that. How can you honestly list Hasselbeck, Cutler and McNabb...three of the most inconsistent QBs this year? Ben has struggled, but they've been against very tough teams. I'll give most of those on your list. But the five I listed, particularly the first three...are ridiculous.

Jay Cutler has one of the least talented teams in the NFL primed for a playoff spot and is the only reason the Broncos are scary to anyone. People look at the defense, and gush about how they'll dominate them. They look at Peyton Hillis as starting RB and gush about how they'll stop him. Then Cutler slangs it for 350+ in the pouring rain against the team that just ended the Titans unbeaten season. Is Jay Cutler the best QB in the NFL? No. But to say that it's laughable to place him above Roethlisberger is pure homerism.

bigbluedefense
12-02-2008, 11:50 AM
Ive said in the past that Jay Cutler is the only young quarterback Id trade Eli Manning for.

I don't know if I feel that way anymore (probably don't), but that shows how highly I think of him as a player. Cutler is the man.

He carries that team.

Id rank em

Eli
Cutler
Rivers
Ben

in that order. Matt Ryan's name will be on that list soon enough.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 11:52 AM
I like Cutler too, but he has to learn when to shut up. Funny how some of these young QBs talk alot of smack.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-02-2008, 12:00 PM
Yeah, he likes to run his mouth lol.

bigbluedefense
12-02-2008, 12:00 PM
I want to hear him and Rivers really go at it during the week before a game lol.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 12:02 PM
Yeah, he likes to run his mouth lol.

So does Rivers, which makes it funny when they both start running their mouths at each other. That's why I like guys who are quiet and shut up and play. Eli, Kevin Boss, Toomer, and all them don't really talk that much. Biggest trash talker on the team is Jacobs. And no one will say much to a guy 6'4 265 when he starts talking.

bored of education
12-02-2008, 12:15 PM
That's what everyone said about Vince Young..

A wins a win when you contribute to the victory. Vince Young issues are not on the field issues. they are mental. Dude doesn't have the grit, the will, the ILL PUT 110% OFF AND ON THE FIELD, etc. He just doesn't have the IT factor forthe NFL. He could use his natural talents to get through college. But prepations and film workfor the other teams on Vinve Young without him progressing=ownage.

It doesn't seem he cares that he is not starting. Show some emotion.

He just seems like a big wimp.


Oh EDIT:

I was looking at his stats in comparison to his win los. He is not that good of a Qb from a tradition perspective, the guy can win. But is he directly the reason or put his team in those positions to get those wins? I am asking seriously. help me here Met Sox since you loveh im.

PACKmanN
12-02-2008, 12:27 PM
Ive said in the past that Jay Cutler is the only young quarterback Id trade Eli Manning for.

I don't know if I feel that way anymore (probably don't), but that shows how highly I think of him as a player. Cutler is the man.

He carries that team.

Id rank em

Eli
Cutler
Rivers
Ben

in that order. Matt Ryan's name will be on that list soon enough.
where would you rank Rodgers? I ask because you say Ryan will be on that list soon, yet no mention of him.

steelernation77
12-02-2008, 12:39 PM
His injury "concerns" have long been dated. Even his coaches have called him out on that.

As for him winning his team Superbowls, i'd beg to differ. He looked horrible in that game, and if it weren't for terrible (and i mean disgusting) officiating, Seattle would have won handily while Roethlisberger would have easily been the goat. He played so ugly.

That's a ridiculous statement. Not only were all the "controversial" calls correct, to say that Seattle would've won "handily" is ridiculous.

I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.

bigbluedefense
12-02-2008, 01:01 PM
where would you rank Rodgers? I ask because you say Ryan will be on that list soon, yet no mention of him.

I have Rodgers slightly ahead of Ryan. Good call, forgot about him.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 01:08 PM
Learning with a new OC and new QB coach takes time. You don't close your guys and wake up when you have these changes and have things magically work out. Just ask Alex Smith and his 4 OCs.

And Whisenhunt left at the end of 06, he had to adapt to Arians more Spread style offense. (Not to mention we lost Whipple(QB Coach), Cowher (HC), Grimm (OL Coach), Dick Hoak retired(Amazing RB Coach), Kevin Spencer(ST's)...)

We lost 5 coaches and had 1 promoted to OC. The offense and ST's had a completely new staff going into 2007. And these last 3 games tell me that 1) The OL is gelling, 2) Ben is learning to make his checkdowns, and 3) That the WR's need to stop dropping the ball.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 01:13 PM
That's a ridiculous statement. Not only were all the "controversial" calls correct, to say that Seattle would've won "handily" is ridiculous.

I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.

He's a hater, he'll latch onto any semblence of a reason why Said steeler is not any good.

Of course he'll ignore the playoffs.

39/72, 680 yards, 7TD:1INT, 113.19 QB Rating, 1 Rushing TD

Beating the #3 Seed, #2 Seed, #4 Seed to the Superbowl. Ben won us those games. I doubt that without Ben on this team we'd have been in the Superbowl.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 01:14 PM
And Whisenhunt left at the end of 06, he had to adapt to Arians more Spread style offense. (Not to mention we lost Whipple(QB Coach), Cowher (HC), Grimm (OL Coach), Dick Hoak retired(Amazing RB Coach), Kevin Spencer(ST's)...)

We lost 5 coaches and had 1 promoted to OC. The offense and ST's had a completely new staff going into 2007. And these last 3 games tell me that 1) The OL is gelling, 2) Ben is learning to make his checkdowns, and 3) That the WR's need to stop dropping the ball.

I thought Whisenhunt was a sick oC. He was my favorite OC with Cam Cameron after that. It makes me mad to think we drafted a franchise QB with an idiot OC guiding him and calling the plays.

Imagine what you guys are going throw but from the get go we never had our stuff together. We had an idiot OC who is in Canada now, an idiot DC who got fired, and then we had to hire a new QB coach, hire a new DC, promote Gilbride, and people wonder why Eli has played well. Factor in getting no more Tiki and Shockey and that helps alot. O yeah factor being on top with dropped passes and no wonder it was a big old mess. Finally we got our stuff together.

Ben will get better if you guys put him in a good system with good coaches and players around him. I am not a ben fan, but I respect the him. He does have talent and his issue is his health. If he can stay healthy and upright he can be a damn good qb.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 01:17 PM
I thought Whisenhunt was a sick oC. He was my favorite OC with Cam Cameron after that. It makes me mad to think we drafted a franchise QB with an idiot OC guiding him and calling the plays.

Imagine what you guys are going throw but from the get go we never had our stuff together. We had an idiot OC who is in Canada now, an idiot DC who got fired, and then we had to hire a new QB coach, hire a new DC, promote Gilbride, and people wonder why Eli has played well. Factor in getting no more Tiki and Shockey and that helps alot. O yeah factor being on top with dropped passes and no wonder it was a big old mess. Finally we got our stuff together.

Ben will get better if you guys put him in a good system with good coaches and players around him. I am not a ben fan, but I respect the him. He does have talent and his issue is his health. If he can stay healthy and upright he can be a damn good qb.

I agree with what you said. I think my point is until recently we haven't been designing plays with a Checkdown at all (Arians is our version of Hufnagel you can't throw passes shorter than 15 yards.)

MetSox17
12-02-2008, 01:18 PM
A wins a win when you contribute to the victory. Vince Young issues are not on the field issues. they are mental. Dude doesn't have the grit, the will, the ILL PUT 110% OFF AND ON THE FIELD, etc. He just doesn't have the IT factor forthe NFL. He could use his natural talents to get through college. But prepations and film workfor the other teams on Vinve Young without him progressing=ownage.

It doesn't seem he cares that he is not starting. Show some emotion.

He just seems like a big wimp.


Oh EDIT:

I was looking at his stats in comparison to his win los. He is not that good of a Qb from a tradition perspective, the guy can win. But is he directly the reason or put his team in those positions to get those wins? I am asking seriously. help me here Met Sox since you loveh im.

I loved him as a college quarterback, and i support him as a player in the NFL, but i have always disliked him as a pro-quarterback prospect. His arm isn't that strong, he can't read a book, much less a defense. His rookie year he scrambled in the pocket the second his first read was covered. His second year was improved slightly, but his pocket presence was still shady at best. Let's not forget the year that Lendale White had this past season, and that the running game was still the strength of that offense. The defense put them in positions to score 13 points and come away with the victory. I don't think much of the Titans' success relied on Vince Young as a quarterback.

Also, while his off the field issues are an obvious thing to look at, he's just not that good a quarterback, nor do i think he will be. He can be decent to above average, especially with his mobility and ability to break plays open, but as a passer, he will never be better than average.

Edit -
That's a ridiculous statement. Not only were all the "controversial" calls correct, to say that Seattle would've won "handily" is ridiculous.

I hate so much about the things that you choose to be.

Do you find it funny that for the most part, people agree with what i'm saying, yet the only ones that don't are Pittsburgh fans? :rolleyes:

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 01:30 PM
I agree with what you said. I think my point is until recently we haven't been designing plays with a Checkdown at all (Arians is our version of Hufnagel you can't throw passes shorter than 15 yards.)


I actually like short to intermediate passes. It beats going deep every damn time which we did with Huffy. Sometimes I felt like he was playing Madden in real life. How else do you explain having a young QB throw 557 times his first full year with TIKI BARBER as your RB???!?!?!?!?! What the hell is that about? You have Tiki Barber who can run yet you have your QB throw 557 times in his first full season? God I hated that man, and meanwhile we have to contend with other NFL fans hating on our QB, and some from our fan base too. It was like a civil war on our MBs. The haters vs the non haters. Everyday all day! As of now Eli after 12 games has thrown 371 passes. That's a good pace. Finally all it took was a smart OC to figure out how to run an offense.

Normally all plays have check downs. As a offensive coach, I can attest to that, but the coaches have to rep that to the QB. The QB then has to be willing to go through his progression and settle for the check down rather than make a play down field. That's on the QB, but the coaches have to rep that. OC and QB coach mainly.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 01:30 PM
Do you find it funny that for the most part, people agree with what i'm saying, yet the only ones that don't are Pittsburgh fans? :rolleyes:

Actually, you're one of very few people making the assertion that he's a mediocre QB.

Quite a few people have stood up for him. But I figured you'd ignore that to state a point.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-02-2008, 01:34 PM
So does Rivers, which makes it funny when they both start running their mouths at each other. That's why I like guys who are quiet and shut up and play. Eli, Kevin Boss, Toomer, and all them don't really talk that much. Biggest trash talker on the team is Jacobs. And no one will say much to a guy 6'4 265 when he starts talking.

Before the Broncos-Chargers game, they need to have a weigh-in, boxing style.

Rivers: Wow, 235, way to go fatty, you'd probably look like Jamal Williams if you didn't have diabetes.

Cutler: I like the way you throw, who taught you, your mom?

Rivers: I'm surprise you could hold on to that thought long enough to get it out, butterfingers.

Cutler: You know the first number in your record is wins, right? And you want lots of those. The second number is losses. Those are bad. Guess they don't teach you that at state schools.

Rivers: So how much weight did you put on after swallowing a truckload of Ed Hochuili's special men?

Cutler: Sorry, I missed that, can you repeat it, I was busy thinking about the playoffs.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 01:41 PM
Before the Broncos-Chargers game, they need to have a weigh-in, boxing style.

Rivers: Wow, 235, way to go fatty, you'd probably look like Jamal Williams if you didn't have diabetes.

Cutler: I like the way you throw, who taught you, your mom?

Rivers: I'm surprise you could hold on to that thought long enough to get it out, butterfingers.

Cutler: You know the first number in your record is wins, right? And you want lots of those. The second number is losses. Those are bad. Guess they don't teach you that at state schools.

Rivers: So how much weight did you put on after swallowing a truckload of Ed Hochuili's special men?

Cutler: Sorry, I missed that, can you repeat it, I was busy thinking about the playoffs.



Brandon Jacobs: You Can't stop me! I am the Juggernaut B..... ! (Xmen 3 reference)


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/Minion6990/Video%20Sigs/bjac27over944zc11no3.gif

captainjack27
12-02-2008, 01:41 PM
His injury "concerns" have long been dated. Even his coaches have called him out on that.

As for him winning his team Superbowls, i'd beg to differ. He looked horrible in that game, and if it weren't for terrible (and i mean disgusting) officiating, Seattle would have won handily while Roethlisberger would have easily been the goat. He played so ugly.


:rolleyes: Please. Stop bitching about the officiating. I'm so sick of hearing that.

CroomDawgs
12-02-2008, 01:50 PM
:rolleyes: Please. Stop bitching about the officiating. I'm so sick of hearing that.

I don't think they would've won handily but Steelers got a lot of calls there way, seattle prolly would've won. Regardless, its 3 years ago, no use in bitching about it

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 02:04 PM
I actually like short to intermediate passes. It beats going deep every damn time which we did with Huffy. Sometimes I felt like he was playing Madden in real life. How else do you explain having a young QB throw 557 times his first full year with TIKI BARBER as your RB???!?!?!?!?! What the hell is that about? You have Tiki Barber who can run yet you have your QB throw 557 times in his first full season? God I hated that man, and meanwhile we have to contend with other NFL fans hating on our QB, and some from our fan base too. It was like a civil war on our MBs. The haters vs the non haters. Everyday all day! As of now Eli after 12 games has thrown 371 passes. That's a good pace. Finally all it took was a smart OC to figure out how to run an offense.

Normally all plays have check downs. As a offensive coach, I can attest to that, but the coaches have to rep that to the QB. The QB then has to be willing to go through his progression and settle for the check down rather than make a play down field. That's on the QB, but the coaches have to rep that. OC and QB coach mainly.

I totally understand. Now, I love the pace Ben is going on ... 343 Attempts right now.. I don't mind our Passing:Rushing being 60:40 because Ben is good enough to throw 30-45 times a game.

Our issue is now that our OC is incredibly stupid and predictable...

Colts Game: He runs Mewelde Moore 3 times right behind Chris Kemoeatu. Moore is an amazing pickup and 3rd down back but if thats Gary Russell, we have a TD.

Philly Game: Kept utilizing 5 or 7 step drops when they're blitz was in our backfield by step 4 or 5. Didn't adjust and go 3 steps or screens.

He doesn't use screens. We have 2 RB's that are awesome in the open field, especially with a blocker leading the way. Why in gods name aren't they getting Kemo or Colon in front of Parker or Moore on a screen?!

He doesn't utilize the TE's: Miller is a very very underrated TE. He has never put up the #'s he's capable of because frankly none of our coordinator's ever utilizes the TE position. Now they're starting to, (Spaeth against SD, Miller the last 2 games) and it's working nearly 100% of the time.

His adjustments: Not so much in game as I've already gone over it... but just it's taken him 10-11 games to start using Russell as the SYB, Utilization of the TE's, took him 6 games to really start stressing Checkdowns, 1/3 step drops. Took him 9 games until he realized sending Santonio Holmes on a Slant almost guarantees 10 yards.

As Jim Wexell (Steelers beat writer) summed it up... Tomlin is preaching Attrition football, Arians is trying his best to be Mike Martz, and is forcing Roethlisberger to try to be Peyton Manning.

Add to the fact that the WR's are dropping roughly 6-8 good catchable passes a game (off their chests, hands.. not counting the ones that were uncatchable)...

And the OL is finally Gelling (Starks Vs. Ware should be very telling). Even though our Franchise LT is out with Back issues, and our Newly extended RG is probably done for his career with an achilles tear, we finally have this OL Playing cohesive.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 02:06 PM
I don't think they would've won handily but Steelers got a lot of calls there way, seattle prolly would've won. Regardless, its 3 years ago, no use in bitching about it

And Pereira said the only penalty that could be refuted was Matt Hasselbacks cutblock.

CroomDawgs
12-02-2008, 02:09 PM
And Pereira said the only penalty that could be refuted was Matt Hasselbacks cutblock.

How he can say that he was right on the Darrell Jackson finger touch is beyond me. It was a finger. Your gonna call that in the super bowl?

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 02:11 PM
How he can say that he was right on the Darrell Jackson finger touch is beyond me. It was a finger. Your gonna call that in the super bowl?

The one where he stiff armed Hope and knocked him backwards to get open for the TD?

Watch the replay, the arm doesn't only stop him from making a play, but it moved him off his feet.

Which is why Pereira said the call was made, not because of the stiff arm when the ball was in the air, but more so because he pushed off (Hope was clearly seen moving the opposite direction because of the said push).

But I love arguing hypotheticals..

Here's mine, if the don't call the first penalty the defense and offense get pissed off and score 48 points.

awfullyquiet
12-02-2008, 02:18 PM
Our issue is now that our OC is incredibly stupid and predictable...


i think you're not looking at it correctly. your OC is a genius.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 02:24 PM
i think you're not looking at it correctly. your OC is a genius.

How is our OC a genius?

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 02:26 PM
I totally understand. Now, I love the pace Ben is going on ... 343 Attempts right now.. I don't mind our Passing:Rushing being 60:40 because Ben is good enough to throw 30-45 times a game.

Our issue is now that our OC is incredibly stupid and predictable...

Colts Game: He runs Mewelde Moore 3 times right behind Chris Kemoeatu. Moore is an amazing pickup and 3rd down back but if thats Gary Russell, we have a TD.

Philly Game: Kept utilizing 5 or 7 step drops when they're blitz was in our backfield by step 4 or 5. Didn't adjust and go 3 steps or screens.

He doesn't use screens. We have 2 RB's that are awesome in the open field, especially with a blocker leading the way. Why in gods name aren't they getting Kemo or Colon in front of Parker or Moore on a screen?!

He doesn't utilize the TE's: Miller is a very very underrated TE. He has never put up the #'s he's capable of because frankly none of our coordinator's ever utilizes the TE position. Now they're starting to, (Spaeth against SD, Miller the last 2 games) and it's working nearly 100% of the time.

His adjustments: Not so much in game as I've already gone over it... but just it's taken him 10-11 games to start using Russell as the SYB, Utilization of the TE's, took him 6 games to really start stressing Checkdowns, 1/3 step drops. Took him 9 games until he realized sending Santonio Holmes on a Slant almost guarantees 10 yards.

As Jim Wexell (Steelers beat writer) summed it up... Tomlin is preaching Attrition football, Arians is trying his best to be Mike Martz, and is forcing Roethlisberger to try to be Peyton Manning.

Add to the fact that the WR's are dropping roughly 6-8 good catchable passes a game (off their chests, hands.. not counting the ones that were uncatchable)...

And the OL is finally Gelling (Starks Vs. Ware should be very telling). Even though our Franchise LT is out with Back issues, and our Newly extended RG is probably done for his career with an achilles tear, we finally have this OL Playing cohesive.


Yeah against a good defense, limiting the QB drops is key. That's one way teams are playing our defense. Our sack # is down because teams would rather run a quick game on us and try their luck that way rather then run a vertical stretch offense and risk it with a 5 and 7 step drop by their QB.

I am a big fan of screens. All of them, WR, TE, RB, and bubble. If I ever become an OC for college or HS, I would have many, many, screens in my playbook. Good especially against great aggressive defenses.

I can't really rip on your OC because I don't know what the defense is showing you vs the formations you are running. Also depends on other things as well.

What's Big Ben reading?

Does your system have alot of option and choice routes?

Is the QB and WRs on the same page and reading the same thing pre snap and post snap?

What passing concepts do you guys run? ( Vertical stretch, horizontal stretch, Oblique..)

What is the progression for each play?

Knowing the information above really is the key to figuring out what goes on in an offense. Every passing play as a different progression and factor in option and choice routes, it makes it complicated to know what's really happening..


Here is an example of the choice routes for a specific play in Kevin Gilbride's playbook which I have. I posted this on our giants MB one time because fans were wondering the difference. This is why in general comparing players, especially QBs in on different teams, in different systems, with different plays, with different coaches, is pretty damn dumb, especially when you realize how different systems and plays and reads are.

This is out of a basic 2 X 2 formation with QB under center. Ace- Double slot formation.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/Minion6990/choice.jpg

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 02:28 PM
Yeah against a good defense, limiting the QB drops is key. That's one way teams are playing our defense. Our sack # is down because teams would rather run a quick game on us and try their luck that way rather then run a vertical stretch offense and risk it with a 5 and 7 step drop by their QB.

I am a big fan of screens. All of them, WR, TE, RB, and bubble. If I ever become an OC for college or HS, I would have many, many, screens in my playbook. Good especially against great aggressive defenses.

I can't really rip on your OC because I don't know what the defense is showing you vs the formations you are running. Also depends on other things as well.

What's Big Ben reading?

Does your system have alot of option and choice routes?

Is the QB and WRs on the same page and reading the same thing pre snap and post snap?

What passing concepts do you guys run? ( Vertical stretch, horizontal stretch, Oblique..)

What is the progression for each play?

Knowing the information above really is the key to figuring out what goes on in an offense. Every passing play as a different progression and factor in option and choice routes, it makes it complicated to know what's really happening..


Here is an example of the choice routes for a specific play in Kevin Gilbride's playbook which I have. I posted this on our giants MB one time because fans were wondering the difference. This is why in general comparing players, especially QBs in on different teams, in different systems, with different plays, with different coaches, is pretty damn dumb, especially when you realize how different systems and plays and reads are.

This is out of a basic 2 X 2 formation with QB under center. Ace- Double slot formation.


I won't be confused with a coach as I don't know 100% what your talking about.

Earlier in the season it seemed Arians was insisting on a vertical offense, all pass plays 10-15 yards+

The WR's/Qb were not on the same page up until probably 5 games or so ago with Hot reads. Ward/Holmes/Washington on Many occasions never broke off their route for a Hot.

Other than That I can't offer much. All I could suggest is you watch the game. I never did much on offense, I was a MLB.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 02:39 PM
I won't be confused with a coach as I don't know 100% what your talking about.

Earlier in the season it seemed Arians was insisting on a vertical offense, all pass plays 10-15 yards+

The WR's/Qb were not on the same page up until probably 5 games or so ago with Hot reads. Ward/Holmes/Washington on Many occasions never broke off their route for a Hot.

Other than That I can't offer much. All I could suggest is you watch the game. I never did much on offense, I was a MLB.

LOL, No worries man. Yeah I will have to watch it or ask my cousins who live in Pittsburgh. They are all die hard Steeler fans. Only thing I can think of is that some of the plays and stuff were tweaked.

But my basic point is that usually there is alot more to it when it comes to the offense and adjustments good or bad. As I mentioned in the previous post alot of other factors usually play in.

We had that issue in NY where ELi threw one way and the WR went another, and the ball was picked. The fans blamed Eli, and he wouldn't throw people under the bus, but usually later sources said that Shockey or Plax either ran the wrong route, which indicated the offense had alot of option or choice routes, meaning everyone has to be reading the same exact thing for it to work. If you have a player who can't process that while running his route, then your Qb is reading 1 thing, and your WR is doing something totally different.

But I will keep my eye on you're offense. One thing I did notice is that Ben holds the ball for a long time.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 02:49 PM
LOL, No worries man. Yeah I will have to watch it or ask my cousins who live in Pittsburgh. They are all die hard Steeler fans. Only thing I can think of is that some of the plays and stuff were tweaked.

But my basic point is that usually there is alot more to it when it comes to the offense and adjustments good or bad. As I mentioned in the previous post alot of other factors usually play in.

We had that issue in NY where ELi threw one way and the WR went another, and the ball was picked. The fans blamed Eli, and he wouldn't throw people under the bus, but usually later sources said that Shockey or Plax either ran the wrong route, which indicated the offense had alot of option or choice routes, meaning everyone has to be reading the same exact thing for it to work. If you have a player who can't process that while running his route, then your Qb is reading 1 thing, and your WR is doing something totally different.

But I will keep my eye on you're offense. One thing I did notice is that Ben holds the ball for a long time.

Ben holds the ball for a long time, without a doubt. But I think people are putting that all on him. He's not a fan of throwing the ball away unless he's done everything in his power to do so (dodge 40 guys, and more willing to take a sack)..

The fact is, watch the NYJ Game last year, Even some of the games this year, our WR's are just not getting open. I don't know if it's route running, Play design or what, but I know the Giants game, we had almost 0 seperation. There were a few others coming to mind where our WR's are not getting open in the least bit.

Even when they do, All 3 (Including Ward) are having quite a case of the dropsies this year.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 02:58 PM
Ben holds the ball for a long time, without a doubt. But I think people are putting that all on him. He's not a fan of throwing the ball away unless he's done everything in his power to do so (dodge 40 guys, and more willing to take a sack)..

The fact is, watch the NYJ Game last year, Even some of the games this year, our WR's are just not getting open. I don't know if it's route running, Play design or what, but I know the Giants game, we had almost 0 seperation. There were a few others coming to mind where our WR's are not getting open in the least bit.

Even when they do, All 3 (Including Ward) are having quite a case of the dropsies this year.

It depends no why the WRs aren't getting open.. It could be because you guys run the same concepts over and over out defenses now are route easily route reading all the concepts you guys are throwing. So without even thinking based on the reps at practice the defense sees what the releases are and can read the route and figure out the concept.

Factor in pressure from the DL because they are figuring out your pass protection associated with the QB drop, and that's why everything can go wrong, when it does. There is always an under lying issue at the center, which requires more thought than what usually fans think.

Normally people blame seperation on slow WRs or something. But usually it can be alot of other things. Maybe it's a well coached defense who broke down film and figured out what concepts you guys run. So before your players get to their spots the defense can get their first. Meaning now Ben has no where to go, with the DL closing in because the DL coach coached up the DL during the week against your 5-8 pass protections that you run.

That's the great part of football, in my opinion, the scouting element and breaking down teams for scouting purposes.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 03:07 PM
It depends no why the WRs aren't getting open.. It could be because you guys run the same concepts over and over out defenses now are route easily route reading all the concepts you guys are throwing. So without even thinking based on the reps at practice the defense sees what the releases are and can read the route and figure out the concept.

Factor in pressure from the DL because they are figuring out your pass protection associated with the QB drop, and that's why everything can go wrong, when it does. There is always an under lying issue at the center, which requires more thought than what usually fans think.

Normally people blame seperation on slow WRs or something. But usually it can be alot of other things. Maybe it's a well coached defense who broke down film and figured out what concepts you guys run. So before your players get to their spots the defense can get their first. Meaning now Ben has no where to go, with the DL closing in because the DL coach coached up the DL during the week against your 5-8 pass protections that you run.

That's the great part of football, in my opinion, the scouting element and breaking down teams for scouting purposes.

Thats why I'm throwing the OC under the bus. Holmes is fast in and out of his breaks. Washington is the fastest guy on the team (That includes Parker, Holmes, Polamalu and Ike Taylor, 2 of which have run in the 4.2's) Now I understand that doesn't equate great WR, but paired up against a slow corner (Deltha O'Neal) He was getting away all night on pure speed, not to mention the fact that playcalling has been excellent the last 3 games.

But even Dungy said:

Reporter: How did you know where the run was going to be on that Goal Line Stand?

Dungy: Thats what they've been running the last 3 games.


It seems like Arians doesn't understand how to say "Oh we got stuffed 2 times to the left, lets Play action to the TE".. just "Keep running it there".

He just seems to have a knack for not realizing how to do better until after the opportunity is lost.

I would love to get a real Quarterbacks-Coordinator type guys. Someone who knows how to get a QB to play to his level by the playcalling and working him in the system...

Maybe Chow?... Cam Cameron would've been excellent.

Thank you Bill Cowher for putting the piece in his contract about being the next OC.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 03:28 PM
Thats why I'm throwing the OC under the bus. Holmes is fast in and out of his breaks. Washington is the fastest guy on the team (That includes Parker, Holmes, Polamalu and Ike Taylor, 2 of which have run in the 4.2's) Now I understand that doesn't equate great WR, but paired up against a slow corner (Deltha O'Neal) He was getting away all night on pure speed, not to mention the fact that playcalling has been excellent the last 3 games.

But even Dungy said:

Reporter: How did you know where the run was going to be on that Goal Line Stand?

Dungy: Thats what they've been running the last 3 games.


It seems like Arians doesn't understand how to say "Oh we got stuffed 2 times to the left, lets Play action to the TE".. just "Keep running it there".

He just seems to have a knack for not realizing how to do better until after the opportunity is lost.

I would love to get a real Quarterbacks-Coordinator type guys. Someone who knows how to get a QB to play to his level by the playcalling and working him in the system...

Maybe Chow?... Cam Cameron would've been excellent.

Thank you Bill Cowher for putting the piece in his contract about being the next OC.



I like Chow. Have a lot of respect for him and his system. I actually have a bunch of his playbooks and writings talking about his system. Very, very, very smart guy. Cam Cameron as a OC as well is very creative.

Usually when things are predictable like that it is a reflection of the playcall sheet. How many goal line plays does he have? How many runs? How many passes?

People don't realize that you go by the call sheet, so if your system is 60% run vs 40% pass then you break it up based on 70 or so offensive plays and come out with a number of how many passing and running plays to carry over. So usually predictable stuff is just bread and butter plays you scored on in the past, and you tried it again and it didn't work. So I agree that he should call a different play, but realistically how many other plays does he have installed and carried over from the week? Because the playsheet has a finite # of plays, alot will get repeated.

Ie., I have 6 3rd and short passing plays, and 4 3rd and short running plays. We have 15 3rd and short situations in the game with a total of 10 plays total. So some will be used more.

Just an example of redunancy and how based on how the defense is lined up certain plays may have to be ran twice or alot. That could be happening with your team. The real trick is to be able to check the call sheet and see how many of each is installed for the week.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 03:39 PM
I like Chow. Have a lot of respect for him and his system. I actually have a bunch of his playbooks and writings talking about his system. Very, very, very smart guy. Cam Cameron as a OC as well is very creative.

Usually when things are predictable like that it is a reflection of the playcall sheet. How many goal line plays does he have? How many runs? How many passes?

People don't realize that you go by the call sheet, so if your system is 60% run vs 40% pass then you break it up based on 70 or so offensive plays and come out with a number of how many passing and running plays to carry over. So usually predictable stuff is just bread and butter plays you scored on in the past, and you tried it again and it didn't work. So I agree that he should call a different play, but realistically how many other plays does he have installed and carried over from the week? Because the playsheet has a finite # of plays, alot will get repeated.

Ie., I have 6 3rd and short passing plays, and 4 3rd and short running plays. We have 15 3rd and short situations in the game with a total of 10 plays total. So some will be used more.

Just an example of redunancy and how based on how the defense is lined up certain plays may have to be ran twice or alot. That could be happening with your team. The real trick is to be able to check the call sheet and see how many of each is installed for the week.

I fully understand the callsheet and know that not every play in the playbook is utilized.

The fact remains that in 4 plays on the goal line.. he ran the same identical play with the same non-short yardage 3rd down/reeciver back right where the defense was expecting it.

I can understand that with Gary Russell in there.... imposing your will, but..

I can't with MeMo in there.

awfullyquiet
12-02-2008, 03:49 PM
How is our OC a genius?

he has the job. and you don't.

obviously. he's a genius because you're the smartest man in this room.

Mr. Stiller
12-02-2008, 03:57 PM
he has the job. and you don't.

obviously. he's a genius because you're the smartest man in this room.

Great Post.

I hope there's never a negative post against a player or coach on this board again because then we can point to the "Well he has the job and you don't"

Thanks for clearing that up, I almost forgot.:rolleyes:

NY+Giants=NYG
12-02-2008, 06:01 PM
I fully understand the callsheet and know that not every play in the playbook is utilized.

The fact remains that in 4 plays on the goal line.. he ran the same identical play with the same non-short yardage 3rd down/reeciver back right where the defense was expecting it.

I can understand that with Gary Russell in there.... imposing your will, but..

I can't with MeMo in there.

Well maybe someone upstairs saw something. For instance I was helping the local HS with scouting so I was then invited to go into the boothe and help out during a game.

We were on the goal line and the other team stopped us from the 1 or 2 yardline from scoring. We had our goal line formation there and tried running it and we got stopped. I noticed though there was a bubble on the left side so we could score. Now wasn't on the staff so I couldn't force my opinion. I told the guy upstairs who was a first year HS coach, but he stayed quiet.

But what happens if the OC/HC in this case ran 3 more plays to the left side and got stopped? Say he listened and saw the bubble and either QB sneaked it or ran to the side of the bubble.... and got stopped. To the avg fan they would fault the move like you saying playaction and do this. In fact some parents of the kids were doing what fans do and commenting. But the fact remains they werent in the boothe and didn't see that flaw in the formation.

My point is that the TV view sucks in seeing the technique of the linemen and player placement on the field. Maybe he saw something, but on straight plays someone blew an assignment thus stalling the play out. That's something a OC in the headset would tell the HC, that play was there, but so and so missed a down block, and the 3 T came in to make the play. Or that hole was there, but the center got submarined by the 0 Technique and screwed the RB up, but the hole was there.

So you never knew what goes on. That's why they have the headset. You don't know who is telling the OC stuff. Is your OC in the boothe or on the field? Our OC is on the field meaning he has to RELY on the guys stairs. So basically if your guys suck upstairs then so will your OC because he is going by what they say. Remember they don't have the TV angle like fans do. On the field with all the commotion you really can't do much. The guys upstairs are vital for success!

Mr. Stiller
12-03-2008, 02:34 PM
Some interesting information pointed out by a friend on a Steelers site:


Ben is a potential HOF QB. Yes he carried the Steelers to the SB, not the run game.

But lets not let facts get in the way, so here we go.

NFL records already

Rookie NFL record 13 regular season wins in a row.
Highest rookie completion % ever...66.4%
Highest rookie avg per att 8.9
Highest rookie QB rating 98.1 Dan Marino 96

Roethlisberger: 98.1 QB rating, 295 pass attempts
Marino: 96.0 QB rating, pass 296 attempts

In fact, no other rookie QB with at least 150 pass attempts has registered a QB rating in the 90s.

Outside of the best QB rating in rookie history

Roethlisberger’s QB rating, yards per attempt (8.9) and completion percentage (66.4) ranked in the top five of all QBs in his rookie year. Only Manning and Culpepper equaled that feat.


Going into this year:
Top 5 all-time passer ratings

Steve Young – 96.81
Peyton Manning – 94.25
Kurt Warner – 93.52
Tom Brady – 92.91
Ben Roethlisberger – 92.52

Top 5 all time passing yards per att

Otto Graham – 8.63 YPA
Sid Luckman – 8.42
Norm Van Brocklin – 8.16
Kurt Warner – 8.14
Ben Roethlisberger – 8.10

NFL record for wins in first 5 seasons

50 and will hold the NFL record at end of year

Youngest QB to start and WIN a SB

5-2 Post season record, how many Post season games has Romo won again ?

Made NFL history again by being the only rookie to start in two Conference Championship games in his first two seasons.

Oh, and the SB run....was all Ben, not run game.
AFC WC game
14-of-19 passes for 208 yards, three TDs and a 148.7 passer-rating.

AFC Div game
14-of-24 passes for 197 yards two TD passes and a quarterback rating of 95.3…Also made a game-saving tackle on Nick Harper after he returned a fumble to the Colts' 42-yard after Bettis and the run game almost COST us the game.

AFC Championship game
21-of-29 passes for 275 yards, two TDs and a 124.9 passer-rating…rushed three times for 12 yards and one TD

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 02:39 PM
He has to keep up the pace though throughout his career. Lack of injuries would help his cause too.

Mr. Stiller
12-03-2008, 02:42 PM
He has to keep up the pace though throughout his career. Lack of injuries would help his cause too.

I agree. He needs a few more seasons like he had last year and another SB Ring or Two would certainly help his cause.

dhp318
12-03-2008, 02:49 PM
Now we're arguing Ben for HOF? Good Lord. Just looking at his play this year, I'm going with no. Who cares if his rookie numbers were good if he's regressed since then.

Mr. Stiller
12-03-2008, 02:50 PM
Now we're arguing Ben for HOF? Good Lord. Just looking at his play this year, I'm going with no. Who cares if his rookie numbers were good if he's regressed since then.

I'm not arguing him for the HOF. That was merely a post on another forum.

My point was, he has performed at the top level for 3/4 years and he's getting Hot right now.


if Eli can be considered and Elite QB after 1.5 seasons of Good play (admittedly the OC sucked), then why so down on him even though he's accomplished more, in a shorter period?

MetSox17
12-03-2008, 02:55 PM
if Eli can be considered and Elite QB after 1.5 seasons of Good play

Who the hell said that? Cause i'll kick them off their high horse as well.

NY+Giants=NYG
12-03-2008, 03:02 PM
Who the hell said that? Cause i'll kick them off their high horse as well.

Damn giants homers.. GO get'em!! : P

MetSox17
12-03-2008, 03:03 PM
Damn giants homers.. GO get'em!! : P

Oh i will... i know exactly who they are!

giantsfan
12-03-2008, 07:46 PM
Oh i will... i know exactly who they are!

WARNING GIANTS HOMERS
MetSox on the prowl.

MetSox17
12-03-2008, 08:59 PM
WARNING GIANTS HOMERS
MetSox on the prowl.

Grr.

ten characters

BamaFalcon59
12-03-2008, 09:05 PM
His record will be broken by Matt Ryan eventually. As will all football records that carry positive merritt.

Mr. Stiller
12-03-2008, 11:02 PM
His record will be broken by Matt Ryan eventually. As will all football records that carry positive merritt.

Ryan isn't close to any of his rookie records IIRC.

I don't think Ryan can win the superbowl as the youngest QB either.

The most wins in 5 seasons is doable, if the Falcons really turn it around.

PoopSandwich
12-03-2008, 11:05 PM
Ryan isn't close to any of his rookie records IIRC.

I don't think Ryan can win the superbowl as the youngest QB either.

The most wins in 5 seasons is doable, if the Falcons really turn it around.

I doubt the Falcons will be able to do what the Steelers did the past 5 years... Wasn't ben like 14-0 as a starter in his rookie year?

Mr. Stiller
12-03-2008, 11:13 PM
I doubt the Falcons will be able to do what the Steelers did the past 5 years... Wasn't ben like 14-0 as a starter in his rookie year?

Steelers were 15-1 (1-1 first 2 games, Ben came in the 4th quarter against Baltimore).

He went on to win the rest of the games that season, including the Jets Game (Which he almost lost), but we lost to NE*** after that.

Which I don't totally blame Ben for if those tapings were that big of a deal.

That said he did drub both the Superbowl teams (NE 45-21, Phi 27-7)

d34ng3l021
12-03-2008, 11:19 PM
Steelers were 15-1 (1-1 first 2 games, Ben came in the 4th quarter against Baltimore).

He went on to win the rest of the games that season, including the Jets Game (Which he almost lost), but we lost to NE*** after that.

Which I don't totally blame Ben for if those tapings were that big of a deal.

That said he did drub both the Superbowl teams (NE 45-21, Phi 27-7)

Who would you say has a better rookie season? Big Ben or Matty Ice?

PoopSandwich
12-03-2008, 11:22 PM
Steelers were 15-1 (1-1 first 2 games, Ben came in the 4th quarter against Baltimore).

He went on to win the rest of the games that season, including the Jets Game (Which he almost lost), but we lost to NE*** after that.

Which I don't totally blame Ben for if those tapings were that big of a deal.

That said he did drub both the Superbowl teams (NE 45-21, Phi 27-7)

I thought he came in against the Dolphins when Maddox went down or was that Ben's first start...?

Hines
12-03-2008, 11:35 PM
I thought he came in against the Dolphins when Maddox went down or was that Ben's first start...?

He went in after Maddox got hurt against Baltimore. He played pretty well. His first start was the following week.

Mr. Stiller
12-03-2008, 11:43 PM
Who would you say has a better rookie season? Big Ben or Matty Ice?

Depends on your POV:

Matt Ryan: 61.0%, 2625 yards, 7.9 YPA, 13 TD, 6 INT, 91.2 QB Rating, 8-4

Big Ben: 66.4%, 2621 yards, 8.9 YPA, 17 TD: 11 INT, 98.1 QB Rating, 15-1 (13-0)

Ryan will have more attempts and yardage, perhaps even more TD's... Ben was extremely more efficient.

d34ng3l021
12-03-2008, 11:49 PM
Depends on your POV:

Matt Ryan: 61.0%, 2625 yards, 7.9 YPA, 13 TD, 6 INT, 91.2 QB Rating, 8-4

Big Ben: 66.4%, 2621 yards, 8.9 YPA, 17 TD: 11 INT, 98.1 QB Rating, 15-1 (13-0)

Ryan will have more attempts and yardage, perhaps even more TD's... Ben was extremely more efficient.

Efficient maybe. Ryan will probably end up with less interceptions, but that doesn't tell the whole story. Big Ben's comp. % is pretty ridiculous though.

I think Ryan is much more of a playmaker though. He already has more attempts than Big Ben had all of his rookie season with 4 games to go. Here is another interesting statistic.

In his rookie season, Big Ben faced 18 3rd and 8-10 yards. His completion percentage was 50% with a 6.7 YPA. He faced 26 3rd and 11+. His completion percentage was 53% with a 7.5 YPA.

So far, Ryan has faced 38 3rd and 8-10 yard situations (wow). His completion percentage is 66% with a 10.7 YPA. He has faced 23 3rd and 11+ situations. His completion percentage is 65% with a 13.0 YPA. I think you could make a case for him being one of the best 3rd and long QBs in the league.

Big Ben managed the game well and moved the chains. Though Turner leads the league in carries, Ryan is still being asked to make plays and delivers when asked.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-04-2008, 01:56 AM
ESPN projects Matt Ryan to finish with 3500 yards with 17 TD versus 8 INT.

One could make a case for either, but there's no doubt who was playing on the better team with more leads to work with. Matt Ryan has been asked to keep his team in games more than Roethlisberger was asked to in his rookie year, and for that reason I'd probably go with Ryan.

BamaFalcon59
12-04-2008, 04:40 PM
Ryan isn't close to any of his rookie records IIRC.

I don't think Ryan can win the superbowl as the youngest QB either.

The most wins in 5 seasons is doable, if the Falcons really turn it around.

Ryan's numbers as a rookie will be more impressive, considering he will have thrown the ball 150 more times his rookie season.

Even Marino didn't throw the ball this much his rookie year and have success.

BamaFalcon59
12-04-2008, 04:44 PM
Depends on your POV:

Matt Ryan: 61.0%, 2625 yards, 7.9 YPA, 13 TD, 6 INT, 91.2 QB Rating, 8-4

Big Ben: 66.4%, 2621 yards, 8.9 YPA, 17 TD: 11 INT, 98.1 QB Rating, 15-1 (13-0)

Ryan will have more attempts and yardage, perhaps even more TD's... Ben was extremely more efficient.

Extremely more efficient? Matt Ryan is on pace to throw less interceptions despite throwing 150 more passes. And Matt Ryan's supporting cast is not up to the Steeler's level.

d34ng3l021
12-04-2008, 06:53 PM
Extremely more efficient? Matt Ryan is on pace to throw less interceptions despite throwing 150 more passes. And Matt Ryan's supporting cast is not up to the Steeler's level.

A completion percentage of 66% and a YPA of 8.9 are hard to argue against. And supporting cast is debatable. The Falcons have a very good supporting cast for Ryan right now.

My point was, he has performed at the top level for 3/4 years and he's getting Hot right now.

The top level for 3/4 years? Year 1 and year 2 he had 295 attempts and then 268 attempts. Yeah his YPA was good and his QB rating was terrific, but with those kinds of attempts? He was a game manager for 2 years (while there is nothing wrong with being a game manager, it just isn't as valued as a playmaking QB). He has had 1 good year where he was very good. How does he follow it up? Career lows in comp%, YPA, already has taken more sacks than he did in his 3 good years, and has thrown 1 TD more than interceptions. And you think he is getting hot?

BamaFalcon59
12-04-2008, 06:57 PM
A completion percentage of 66% and a YPA of 8.9 are hard to argue against. And supporting cast is debatable. The Falcons have a very good supporting cast for Ryan right now.



The top level for 3/4 years? Year 1 and year 2 he had 295 attempts and then 268 attempts. Yeah his YPA was good and his QB rating was terrific, but with those kinds of attempts? He was a game manager for 2 years (while there is nothing wrong with being a game manager, it just isn't as valued as a playmaking QB). He has had 1 good year where he was very good. How does he follow it up? Career lows in comp%, YPA, already has taken more sacks than he did in his 3 good years, and has thrown 1 TD more than interceptions. And you think he is getting hot?

I think Matt Ryan makes the cast look much better than it is. If he didn't have such a good clock in his head to get the ball off the offensive line would look much worse. Jenkins is an average number 2 at best in my opinion, Douglas is good but a rookie, Finneran is a below average number 4, average tight ends. He also pushes the safties off to help out our running game.

Xenos
12-05-2008, 12:21 AM
I want to hear him and Rivers really go at it during the week before a game lol.
Rivers doesn't really talk before or after a game. I just find it funny that people actually take Rivers so called trash talking seriously. If anything, they should be upset that he can't trash talk that well.

d34ng3l021
12-05-2008, 12:28 AM
I think Matt Ryan makes the cast look much better than it is. If he didn't have such a good clock in his head to get the ball off the offensive line would look much worse. Jenkins is an average number 2 at best in my opinion, Douglas is good but a rookie, Finneran is a below average number 4, average tight ends. He also pushes the safties off to help out our running game.

Theres no way to tell. The Falcons are 8-4 because of elevated play from everyone on offense. I am not going to devalue the play of other players to give more credit to Ryan. Fact is, Jenkins is shedding his bust label, White is emerging as a true number 1, and our OL is well coached and has played very well.

BamaFalcon59
12-05-2008, 04:03 PM
Theres no way to tell. The Falcons are 8-4 because of elevated play from everyone on offense. I am not going to devalue the play of other players to give more credit to Ryan. Fact is, Jenkins is shedding his bust label, White is emerging as a true number 1, and our OL is well coached and has played very well.

I'm not devaluing their play because I want Matt Ryan to look better. I'm devaluing their play because Matt Ryan makes them look better. Jenkins is still average, and our offensive line (while improved) would have given up 30 sacks if a lesser QB was back there.

Shane P. Hallam
12-05-2008, 04:04 PM
This thread took a turn

BamaFalcon59
12-05-2008, 04:27 PM
Yeah, I have a tendency to turn thread topics.

Shane P. Hallam
12-05-2008, 04:28 PM
Maybe you shouldn't do that anymore.

BamaFalcon59
12-05-2008, 04:33 PM
Yeah, it's a bad habit.

P-L
12-05-2008, 04:40 PM
Anyone watching PTI? What Matt Hasselback supposedly said about Roethlisberger was hilarious.

Mr. Stiller
12-05-2008, 04:41 PM
How does he follow it up? Career lows in comp%, YPA, already has taken more sacks than he did in his 3 good years, and has thrown 1 TD more than interceptions. And you think he is getting hot?

Have you watched the Steelers Lately? last 3 games:

65/104 62.5%, 730yards, 3TD, 1INT, 1 TD Rushing.. 5 sacks...

Granted it was the Chargers, Bengals and Patriots.. If his midseason slump continued, those wouldn't be that good right now..

I think How he plays against Dallas will tell us how he'll be the rest of the season.

P-L
12-05-2008, 04:52 PM
Those number aren't that special over three games. If those numbers are him "getting hot" then that is a testament to how average he's played this season.

MetSox17
12-05-2008, 04:52 PM
Anyone watching PTI? What Matt Hasselback supposedly said about Roethlisberger was hilarious.

What did he say?

P-L
12-05-2008, 04:54 PM
What did he say?
A little girl asked Hasselback at his son's school: "Should girls be able to play in the NFL?"

Hasselback responded: "Of course they can, Ben Roethlisberger plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers."

MetSox17
12-05-2008, 04:58 PM
A little girl asked Hasselback at his son's school: "Should girls be able to play in the NFL?"

Hasselback responded: "Of course they can, Ben Roethlisberger plays for the Pittsburgh Steelers."

Lmao, Hasselbeck is such a cool guy.

Mr. Stiller
12-05-2008, 05:03 PM
Those number aren't that special over three games. If those numbers are him "getting hot" then that is a testament to how average he's played this season.

Exactly.

He's sucked this season, but A lot of blame goes around, if anyone here really watched every game then they'd know that...

the OL is just now starting to Gel.. 3 New Starters throughout the season, WR's dropping a lot of passes/not reading their hots.

Parkers Injury keeping him out. Losing Mendenhall the next week. We're starting to get healthy again (As well as Bens Shoulder seems healed.)

d34ng3l021
12-05-2008, 06:24 PM
Okay to let me get this straight. He has sucked this season. Him getting "hot" means getting 4 TDs in 3 games with a 63% comp rate. And by him getting hot, you actually mean him becoming average?

And by the way you make excuses for the offense sucking, it would seem as if you hardly blame Roethlisberger at all...

MetSox17
12-05-2008, 06:39 PM
the OL is just now starting to Gel.. 3 New Starters throughout the season, WR's dropping a lot of passes/not reading their hots.

How can you possibly say that the WR's aren't reading their hot routes? Are you the one calling plays or what?

Where's Shocking?!

Mr. Stiller
12-05-2008, 07:06 PM
Okay to let me get this straight. He has sucked this season. Him getting "hot" means getting 4 TDs in 3 games with a 63% comp rate. And by him getting hot, you actually mean him becoming average?

And by the way you make excuses for the offense sucking, it would seem as if you hardly blame Roethlisberger at all...

So let me get this straight...

Me saying he has sucked all season and is starting to get hot because he's playing the most flawless he has all season?

So, if he continues to stay Hot and keeps playing better and Better, how is my statement wrong.

As for Blaming Roeth, he's made a Quite a few ****** plays I'm not saying that he hasn't sucked this season in the least. But I'm also saying the offense as a whole sucked. There is a heck of a lot of reasons why our offense has been defunct this season, and it's not all Roethlisberger, it goes from Arians/Playcalling down to Ben making stupid throws, to the WR's dropping a lot of passes, to OL Not blocking, and the RB's not doing anything.


I don't get what you're stating.

"Okay to let me get this straight. He has sucked this season. Him getting "hot" means getting 4 TDs in 3 games with a 63% comp rate. And by him getting hot, you actually mean him becoming average?"

So, because he's played great (Had you watched the games you'd have seen) in only the last 3 games this season...I'm saying I feel he's about to go on a run.

He's struggled all season, but he's playing accurate and decisive football, actually using the checkdowns and getting the ball out quite fast, rarely has he really tried to go deep. And by deep I mean roughly 40+ yards in the air.

Now had you seen him every game you'd see a completely different QB.

Mr. Stiller
12-05-2008, 07:10 PM
How can you possibly say that the WR's aren't reading their hot routes? Are you the one calling plays or what?

Where's Shocking?!

You're absolutely right.

It wasn't rewatching the entire Eagles game seeing not 1 receiver break off his route during the blitzes. No.

It wasn't the Guys in the booth even pointing out that Ward missed a Hot route on the CB Blitz that sacked Ben. Can't be.

It can't be the mentions from Ward/Holmes in the Paper about them needing to "Get on the same page as far as hot routes and stuff.." Absolutely not.


1) I thought your weren't coming back in this thread.
2) I love how you're trying to talk down to me as if I don't know what a Hot route or when it's missed.
3) I think it's even more funny that you're doing it about a team you probably watched maybe once or twice this season, and I watch every week.

But I'm sure I can't be right. Only You.. Right?

d34ng3l021
12-05-2008, 07:15 PM
So let me get this straight...

Me saying he has sucked all season and is starting to get hot because he's playing the most flawless he has all season?

So, if he continues to stay Hot and keeps playing better and Better, how is my statement wrong.

As for Blaming Roeth, he's made a Quite a few ****** plays I'm not saying that he hasn't sucked this season in the least. But I'm also saying the offense as a whole sucked. There is a heck of a lot of reasons why our offense has been defunct this season, and it's not all Roethlisberger, it goes from Arians/Playcalling down to Ben making stupid throws, to the WR's dropping a lot of passes, to OL Not blocking, and the RB's not doing anything.


I don't get what you're stating.

"Okay to let me get this straight. He has sucked this season. Him getting "hot" means getting 4 TDs in 3 games with a 63% comp rate. And by him getting hot, you actually mean him becoming average?"

So, because he's played great (Had you watched the games you'd have seen) in only the last 3 games this season...I'm saying I feel he's about to go on a run.

He's struggled all season, but he's playing accurate and decisive football, actually using the checkdowns and getting the ball out quite fast, rarely has he really tried to go deep. And by deep I mean roughly 40+ yards in the air.

Now had you seen him every game you'd see a completely different QB.

By me saying "let me get this straight" or whatever I said, I meant it. It wasn't a way to prove a point or anything. I understand now that

Big Ben sucked -> Big Ben is average now

Therefore, Big Ben has gotten hot. And now that he has gone from being bad to okay, he has a chance of becoming good.

Mr. Stiller
12-05-2008, 07:39 PM
By me saying "let me get this straight" or whatever I said, I meant it. It wasn't a way to prove a point or anything. I understand now that

Big Ben sucked -> Big Ben is average now

Therefore, Big Ben has gotten hot. And now that he has gone from being bad to okay, he has a chance of becoming good.

Which is my point, it's progress. Regardless of how he plays his final 4 games this season unless he throws about 4 TD"s a piece with no INT's... even then the best he can do is 28:11 TD:INT.

What I've seen from this offense this season at the beginning was utter chaos.

Ask the Fans of Philly how easy it was to blitz our offense early this season.

Now it seems like this offense is on the same page, clicking together.

The only thing really ailing the offense right now is run blocking (Stapleton has been decent anchoring in Pass pro but gets no push in the run game :()
and drops.

Against the Patriots I think I counted 7 Drops. 2 for 30+ yard gains.


So basically by saying he's getting hot...

I didn't mean he was there yet, He's improved from suckage, and still has a ways to go, but as far as Stats-wise this season is a no-win for him..

But..

I think him getting hot now is great because I see the playoffs coming and he's really playing better ball... It's eerily similar to 2005, not completely..

But the offense got hot about this time.. And our defense is pushing for records.

MetSox17
12-05-2008, 07:43 PM
You're absolutely right.

It wasn't rewatching the entire Eagles game seeing not 1 receiver break off his route during the blitzes. No.

It wasn't the Guys in the booth even pointing out that Ward missed a Hot route on the CB Blitz that sacked Ben. Can't be.

It can't be the mentions from Ward/Holmes in the Paper about them needing to "Get on the same page as far as hot routes and stuff.." Absolutely not.


1) I thought your weren't coming back in this thread.
2) I love how you're trying to talk down to me as if I don't know what a Hot route or when it's missed.
3) I think it's even more funny that you're doing it about a team you probably watched maybe once or twice this season, and I watch every week.

But I'm sure I can't be right. Only You.. Right?

The reason i asked where Shocking was, is because he had mentioned on several occasions that people saying WR's running wrong routes or making wrong reads is a crock of junk, because the only persons that would have any knowledge whatsoever of whether a play was ran correctly or incorrectly would be the coaches and the actual WR's. I don't care how many games you've watched, you don't know what's being called or not.

Mr. Stiller
12-05-2008, 07:47 PM
The reason i asked where Shocking was, is because he had mentioned on several occasions that people saying WR's running wrong routes or making wrong reads is a crock of junk, because the only persons that would have any knowledge whatsoever of whether a play was ran correctly or incorrectly would be the coaches and the actual WR's. I don't care how many games you've watched, you don't know what's being called or not.

So them coming out (Holmes and Ward) Saying that they ran the wrong routes/didn't break off for the Hots in the Post Game Media interviews? Same things with the OC? Saying that the WR's didn't break off, and that they're not on the same page?

I guess they should check with you too?

MetSox17
12-05-2008, 07:50 PM
So them coming out (Holmes and Ward) Saying that they ran the wrong routes/didn't break off for the Hots in the Post Game Media interviews? Same things with the OC? Saying that the WR's didn't break off, and that they're not on the same page?

I guess they should check with you too?

Link? tenchar

bigbluedefense
12-05-2008, 08:52 PM
Im curious to see how he does against Dallas. The NFC East has owned Ben this year so far. He's been terrible against all 3 NFC East defenses he's played.

I think its safe to bet that Dallas will blitz him a lot. As much as WRs need to adjust hot routes, Ben needs to learn how to read defenses and audible some protections before the hike. The guy can't read defenses, that's the one thing that has been holding him back his entire career.

I still think he's a good qb though. If he craps the joint against Dallas, that will hurt his case, but if he lights them up everyone will sing his praises again. It is what it is.

We're so fickle as fans.

Mr. Stiller
12-06-2008, 12:33 AM
Link? tenchar

Article on the Insider from http://pit.scout.com

I'd post it but it's against forum rules.

steelernation77
12-07-2008, 06:56 PM
It's corny, but you just can't deny what ben's got...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jwZBqGPgVE

Bruce Banner
12-07-2008, 06:58 PM
but you just can't deny what ben's got...


A fat gut, league's #1 defense, and the slowest reads evar?

steelernation77
12-07-2008, 07:00 PM
A fat gut, league's #1 defense, and the slowest reads evar?

and Ws.

Hater.

Bruce Banner
12-07-2008, 07:02 PM
and Ws.

Hater.

good thing he picked that Romo pass off for 6 eh?

GTFO.

BamaFalcon59
12-07-2008, 07:03 PM
The Falcons appretiate the Steelers winning today.

steelernation77
12-07-2008, 07:05 PM
good thing he picked that Romo pass off for 6 eh?

GTFO.


Or led his team on a touchdown drive on a freezing december night with the game on the line.

Bruce Banner
12-07-2008, 07:05 PM
Or led his team on a touchdown drive on a freezing december night with the game on the line.

definitely the first to do that.

steelernation77
12-07-2008, 07:13 PM
definitely the first to do that.

More than Romo can say.

Don't worry about it though, I don't think Ben needs any credit from you, he'll have his ring to boost his spirits, and someday probably rings

Bruce Banner
12-07-2008, 07:18 PM
Don't worry about it though, I don't think Ben needs any credit from you, he'll have his ring to boost his spirits, and someday probably rings

I'm not a Cowboys fan so I will just ignore the first part.

You might as well quit posting on message boards if this is your mentality.

giantsfan
12-07-2008, 07:19 PM
I really wish I remembered the quote from the drunk steeler's fan in Z&M, it seems like a fitting post for this thread after this win.

Mr. Stiller
12-07-2008, 07:23 PM
good thing he picked that Romo pass off for 6 eh?

GTFO.

That pick 6 won the game, but Ben led them down the field twice in the 4th to tie the game.

Again, Romo only led his team to 13 points, with Similar #'s to Ben (Minus the 3 INT's), and because the defense got 1 pick 6 people are going to undermine Ben.

Romo is a guy who a lot consider top 5, Ben plays an identical game, has done it longer.

What did Romo have today a 22.1 or something close QB Rating?

Bruce Banner
12-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Romo is a guy who a lot consider top 5, Ben plays an identical game, has done it longer.


Romo is a Cowboy.

/thread
//not really
///yeah

BamaFalcon59
12-07-2008, 07:25 PM
Guys, it's obvious Matt Ryan is superior to both.

JonasBlane
12-07-2008, 09:07 PM
Ben was bad today, and got bailed out big by the defense. I think he is still hurting from injuries. They need to go no huddle and let him call his own plays more, that's when they have had the most success recently.

Geo
12-07-2008, 09:10 PM
Roethlisberger must love to get sacked, he can't get enough and holds the ball to make sure it happens.

d34ng3l021
12-07-2008, 09:45 PM
Guys, it's obvious Matt Ryan is superior to both.

QFT!

Matt Ryan actually likes to get timing down with his WRs so he can deliver the ball on time instead of making his OL look back while taking sacks!

tjsunstein
12-07-2008, 09:50 PM
What does QFT mean? lol

Big Ben played a good game I felt. Definitely didnt win it single handedly but you cant discredit him as an individual for other units of his team playing well. He did his job, put them in the position to win. He didnt make any mistakes but he wasnt overwhelming completing the ball either. In all fairness both O-lines were atrocious so I think about 5 of Ben's incompletions were throwing the ball away.

Geo
12-07-2008, 09:51 PM
QFT = Quoted For Truth

steelersfan43
12-07-2008, 11:17 PM
Roethlisberger must love to get sacked, he can't get enough and holds the ball to make sure it happens.
Hes addicted to it now, he cant just go cold turkey. Especially against such a tempting pass rush like what dallas has..

Also, your sig about the colts not allowing many pass tds is because everyone just runs it in on them..

BlindSite
12-07-2008, 11:26 PM
Watching that game today I wasn't real impressed with either QB. That being said I've been saying for months now that both Romo and Garrett are over rated.

Big Ben was terrible up until 20 mins to go.

Besides all this ********, you want a reason why the Steelers won, his name is Washington and he's the truth.

MetSox17
12-08-2008, 01:53 AM
Watching that game today I wasn't real impressed with either QB. That being said I've been saying for months now that both Romo and Garrett are over rated.

Big Ben was terrible up until 20 mins to go.

Besides all this ********, you want a reason why the Steelers won, his name is Washington and he's the truth.

Garrett yes, Romo, not so much. He's a very good quarterback, but sometimes he picks up bad tendencies in a game and tries to do too much. Today, that was staying in the pocket too long. The throws sailing, you can chalk that up to the pinky, or the wind, or the cold, whatever, he has never really looked that bad, so i'll go out on a limb and say he doesn't play like that next week. The forcing balls and holding onto it too long definitely needs to get worked on. So all in all, i'm not sure where you had Romo initially that you think he's overrated, but i think for the most part, people know what and who he is.

Mr. Stiller
12-08-2008, 11:15 PM
What does QFT mean? lol

Big Ben played a good game I felt. Definitely didnt win it single handedly but you cant discredit him as an individual for other units of his team playing well. He did his job, put them in the position to win. He didnt make any mistakes but he wasnt overwhelming completing the ball either. In all fairness both O-lines were atrocious so I think about 5 of Ben's incompletions were throwing the ball away.

Ben had 3 Throwaways and about 5 drops.

That game was on the entire offense, coaching/Ben/WR's.

Ben needs to get the ball to the WR as he's making his break not when he gets wide open because that allows DB's time to get in position (IE that amazing Newman breakup).

The WR's need to catch a pass they "Shouldn't" Be able to now and again but they're not even catching easy passes.

The playcalling and utilization of players is terrible. Willie Parker should not be banging at the goalline. Bring in Russell. Better Vision and power.

OL Played lights, I"m not pinning a sack on the OL that was Ben & The WR's yesterday. They gave Roeth all day. After 6 seconds it's on the QB and WR's.


Best play of the game? Harrison Launching Roy Williams to tackle the RB. That was awesome.

This was a step back than what I was expecting to see from the offense. After the NE game they looked like they were going to really take off.


But Ben played similarly to Romo, but way more efficient.

steelersfan43
12-08-2008, 11:28 PM
Ben had 3 Throwaways and about 5 drops.

That game was on the entire offense, coaching/Ben/WR's.

Ben needs to get the ball to the WR as he's making his break not when he gets wide open because that allows DB's time to get in position (IE that amazing Newman breakup).

The WR's need to catch a pass they "Shouldn't" Be able to now and again but they're not even catching easy passes.

The playcalling and utilization of players is terrible. Willie Parker should not be banging at the goalline. Bring in Russell. Better Vision and power.

OL Played lights, I"m not pinning a sack on the OL that was Ben & The WR's yesterday. They gave Roeth all day. After 6 seconds it's on the QB and WR's.


Best play of the game? Harrison Launching Roy Williams to tackle the RB. That was awesome.

This was a step back than what I was expecting to see from the offense. After the NE game they looked like they were going to really take off.


But Ben played similarly to Romo, but way more efficient.

One of those a guy came untouched off of the right side and hammered ben. That one was the o lines fault

Mr. Stiller
12-08-2008, 11:49 PM
One of those a guy came untouched off of the right side and hammered ben. That one was the o lines fault

You mean the Scandrick Blitz?

IIRC 4 of the 5 sacks came on Blitzes. The only one that didn't, Ben stepped up right into the pressure instead of looping behind the RT and around. That was the Ware sack.

They only started getting sacks when they blitzed and Ben didn't get rid of the ball fast enough.

When they rushed 4 our OL Stoned them everytime. Until the second half Ben had 5-8 seconds a play it seemed.