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MarioPalmer
12-02-2008, 12:28 AM
And just wanted to say whets up and Mario Williams is a pure beast. I haven't been catching as many games as I have wanted too, but I do catch the night games like the Monday Night Football, Sunday Night and Thursday night games.

Mario and Jared Allen have solidified the top 2 DE spots in the NFL and I have to say that watching both of them is fun.

The move tonight that beat Tony Pashos on Marioís first sack made Pashos look like he was standing still and the extension to almost completely lay out to strip the ball from Garrard on Marioís 3rd sack was almost as cool. The 2nd sack was a home town call, but so what, thatís what home field advantage is all about.

Allen was even more impressive last night and is hands down the best DE in the NFC as is Mario in the AFC. 8 tackles and 3 sacks against a pretty solid Bears O-Line is a feat in its own right. Allen has proven that the trade for a mid first round pick was more than worth it and lets be honest, every team that runs a 4-3 should have been in the Jared Allen sweepstakes. How many times does a franchise DE in the prime of his career come up for grabs? Seriously? And I know that Brandon Albert is looking like a stud offensive tackle but Tamba Hali is no Jared Allen and giving him up because of money and contract issues was a very big blunder by the Chiefs and should rightfully be criticized. You guys better hope that Matt Stafford and or Sam Bradford or even Mark Sanchez is there for you guys to pick or the draft selection of Albert is all for nothing if he isn't blocking for anyone of worth.

I TiVoed both games, Bears at Vikings and Jags at Texans, and I came to the conclusion that Mario and Allen have both become the elite DE's that can dominant at any given moment and on any given day.

I didn't mention John Abraham because of his inability to stay healthy and his past for being considered a soft player. Not saying that he doesn't have the skill to be a top flight defensive end, but I am saying that his inability to play tough through out a season consistently is very disconcerting. If the Falcons felt that Abraham was such a force and a consistent threat on every Sunday then they don't pick Jamaal Anderson and instead go with Patrick Willis, Marshawn Lynch or even Amobi Okoye. Not saying that those would have been the right picks, just saying that the pick of Anderson is the answer to what the franchise felt about Abraham. Because of that and because Parcells once told him to "take off his little pink skirt" I have to go with Allen and Mario. Also, both of them are younger and both of them play hurt no matter what and are extremely stout against the run.

You don't play when you want to or when your team is good, you play no matter what thatís what you get paid to do and both Mario and Jared do that. Playing on the Texans and the Chiefs can be a humbling experience. Both of them knew deep down that their teams just didn't have it, yet they both went out there guns a blazing to give their teams a chance to be competitive. And they are now reaping the rewards of their dominating play and itís a true privilege to watch such awesome talents play this game at itís highest level at the very pinnacle of their position.

FuzzyGopher
12-02-2008, 12:32 AM
Here come the Abraham homers in 3...2...1...

A Perfect Score
12-02-2008, 12:32 AM
I think you will find strong opposition from people who will say guys like Justin Tuck and Aaron Kampman both deserve to at least be in competition with Allen. Dont get me wrong, I love me some Jared Allen, dude is a hard worker with some badass pass rush moves, but I certainly dont think hes as complete as someone like Kampman and while I personally would prefer him on my team, i dont think we can say without question that Allen and Williams are the best. Once again, they are both very good, but I want more consistency from Williams and Allen has major compeition in the NFC.

diabsoule
12-02-2008, 12:35 AM
I think you will find strong opposition from people who will say guys like Justin Tuck and Aaron Kampman both deserve to at least be in competition with Allen. Dont get me wrong, I love me some Jared Allen, dude is a hard worker with some badass pass rush moves, but I certainly dont think hes as complete as someone like Kampman and while I personally would prefer him on my team, i dont think we can say without question that Allen and Williams are the best. Once again, they are both very good, but I want more consistency from Williams and Allen has major compeition in the NFC.

Justin Tuck I think deservedly needs mentioning for the top spots. He's just a pure beast. Kampman on the other hand was owned by Saints RT John Stinchcomb and I'm sorry but when he holds you to 1 Asst. Tackle he doesn't deserve mentioning in the top 2-3 sports, although he is extremely productive.

giantsfan
12-02-2008, 12:36 AM
Tuck (49 tackles, 11.5 sacks, 3 FF and 1 INT returned for a score), Kampman(44 tackles and 9.5 sacks) and even Julius Peppers (41 tackles, 11 sacks, 5 FF) don't get mentioned but Abraham (29 tackles, 12.5 sacks and 3 FF) does?

Those guys are having big seasons, kampman's a little down but still playing at a high level, and are actually useful against the run. Abraham's numbers don't even really stand out that much, he has a sack more than Tuck but isn't nearly the force against the run JT is, a sack and a half more than peppers but 2 less FF.

MarioPalmer
12-02-2008, 01:06 AM
Not saying that Peppers, Tuck and even Kampman, even though not much of a fan, aren't in the top 5, but as for the top 2 I'm going with Mario and Allen. Peppers was held to 3 sakcs during a healthy year last season, sorry but your no longer "THE" elite DE if that happens. And he had Kris Jenkins next to him. Not much you can do to try to convince me other wise and until Mario came into the league Pep was my favorite DE. Tuck is a beast, but he plays on a great line, and although Allen gets help from the Williams', Mario is by himself on a horrid D-Line that has 2 legit busts playing next to him, well at least one anyway in Johnson and another that is on his way to Bustland, Okoye. Tuck has a great secondary to help with coverage sacks, LB's that can fill behind him and a DE opposite him in Kiwi that has the speed to be a threat off the edge. Mario and Allen don't have that opposite end and Mario is stuck with the disgrace that is Anthony Weaver. Have you seen Mario's secondary? His safeties? His LB corps minus Ryans? Look at his team, he is gaining his sacks playing for a losing team. That means almost always playing from behind when teams are more than likely to run and kill time, where Kamp, Tuck and Pep are playing for winners with a lead and the opponent is forced to throw and take gambles.

Just imagine this, if Mario was playing for the Bears, Vikes, Bucs, Panthers, Packers, Giants, or Skins do you think he'd have more sacks by this time of the year? I would go out on a limb and say he would have 14-16 sacks by now if he were playing for a team with a winning record that had a legit defense that didn't have to rely on the play of one player to be compettive. Mario was "THE" reason why the Texans were in tonights game. He disrupted the entire offensive gameplan from start to end for the Jags.

Mario is #1 and Allen is #2 because of their present and previous production. Also Mario is number one because of not just his production or his consistency, but his atyle and his power/size/speed ratio. No one is on his level except for maybe Peppers but he is now on the decline of his prime. Also Peppers has never been a student of the game, he is a player that relyes solely on his athletic ability and not his brain for his play. It works for him, but what happens when he is disinterested like he was last year?

They are what I see the NFL brass consider the standard of the DE position from now on. Every player that enters the league is going to be compared to Mario and Allen. Power, speed and athletic abled DE's will be matched up to Mario and speed, hustle, tancity and explosion will be compared to Allen.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 01:10 AM
Yay. Another DE thread. Only a matter of time before its flooded with Giants and Falcons fans. All I ask is to atleast mention Kampman.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 01:13 AM
But yes, Mario, Tuck, Kampman, Peppers and Allen solidify the top 5. The order is debatable.

1. Mario Williams
2. Justin Tuck
3. Jared Allen
4a. Aaron Kampman
4b. Julius Peppers

Giantsfan1080
12-02-2008, 01:22 AM
Wow first time I read the Giants have a great secondary.

TitanHope
12-02-2008, 01:47 AM
Both players have multi-sack games, and all of the sudden they're the hands down best two DE's?

BlindSite
12-02-2008, 02:08 AM
Mario isn't even playing in the same class as Peppers right now. You've been gone for a while and you haven't been watching much football.

Kampman, peppers and Abraham have been better than Williams by FAR this year.

SenorGato
12-02-2008, 03:43 AM
Whats with all this hyperbole?

Mario "hands down" the best DE? If he had a this that and a third he'd have like a million sacks...he's not in the same class as guys he's totally in the same class with...

Williams is a top DE right now, but "the best' is just for fun. All the guys mentioned in this thread could be argued as the top DE in some way, shape, or form.

I love Williams though. He's going to be a sick player for a long time, and well worth #1 overall. Dude has the chance to be a special player in this league, and I see a guy that wants to reach that goal. He's improved immensely since coming into the league, and he's well on his way to being the most dominant D-lineman in the game. The Texans are yet another team to watch out for. If they don't do anything that would suck, because Johnson and Williams are two of the best talents in the league...Johnson's been wasted for years down there.

Shane P. Hallam
12-02-2008, 03:54 AM
Mario isn't even playing in the same class as Peppers right now. You've been gone for a while and you haven't been watching much football.

Kampman, peppers and Abraham have been better than Williams by FAR this year.

Mario is easily in the same class as all those guys and last year and this year has been just as effective.

D-Rod
12-02-2008, 04:10 AM
Ditto. Mario Williams has been playing just as well this year as he was last year. Peppers is finally playing up to his talent again, but he is definitely not a class above Mario.

I think that Atlanta "homers" were merely piqued that Abraham was never even mentioned in the top 10 DEs, partly due to durability concerns. Now that he's playing regularly, he's getting the respect he deserves, and there's no need to push the issue of whether he is top 10 or top 5 or whatever. I'd certainly concede that he's not quite the all-round force that Mario and Peppers are.

BlindSite
12-02-2008, 06:52 AM
Alright, I admit I was overzealous, I'm just sick of hearing Mario Williams this, Mario Williams that, from this guy. Mario Williams farts and its beautiful music.

While I agree, Williams has the potential to be the best in the league and has played well this year, I don't agree he's played as well as Tuck, Peppers, Abraham or Kampman and that has nothing to do with statistics.

After watching both games, while Allen and Williams impacts have been impressive on their teams, they're not the best in the NFL and neither really deserve to be in the probowl this year when you consider the amazing play of some other defensive ends.

imo Shaun Ellis' has been amazing this year now he's finally got some help and no one is mentioning his name, no one's talking about Richard Seymor or Robert Mathis either. Quietly they're all playing just as good.

TitanHope
12-02-2008, 08:03 AM
BlindSite is correct on MarioPalmer's homerism. I believe MarioPalmer's first thread was him declaring Mario Williams to be one of the best defensive players in the NFL, and that he should win DPOY. This is either his 2nd or 3rd thread devoted to praising Super Mario.

Though, he's made other threads on topics that were very insightful, and is a gifted writer in conveying his points. It's just that all of us know Super Mario is a beast of burden already. :P

MarioPalmer
12-02-2008, 09:35 AM
First off Kampman isn't the dominant player that everyone thinks or thought he was. He isn't the dominanting presence nor has the athletic ability of Mario, Julius, Jared or Tuck and is a pure "hustle" player. Which is fine, but can never be the best. The best players are players who have that special talent to go with athletic ability, passion and the mind set to play at a high level. Mario has it. Allen has it, Julius had it, Tuck has it. A few others but none have the ceiling nor the ability of Mario. Sorry to Peppers fans, but his 3 sack season last year in a year mind you that needed him more than this year is a dissapointment to me and surely to his team. Is Peppers playing for his Free Agency contract or is he going to play like this afterwards? The same question is being asked in Titan country right now with Haynesworth. He is on a beastly mission right now, but will he play like this after his big contract in the off season? Or will Albert go back to being the same Albert for the 5 previous seasons where he was just another DT?

Mario has come into this league with more hatred, more criticism, more overall disgust then anyone ever picked in the draft. He could have completely failed and no one would've even cared because thats what they expected. He was drafted to some of the loudest boo's ever, not just from his teams fan base, but from the entire country. The Vince Young and Reggie Bush love was ridiculous in this country and the hype following them into the NFL Draft was unreal to say the least.

Can you imagine being called Sam Bowie from the day you enter the league and you've never touched the field? Can you imagine playing with Plantar Fasciitis through the last 8 games of your first year when you have already hit your rookie wall? Can you imagine playing in your rookie year and the home town hero, who by the way was passed on for you, plays you twice a year and has a highlight home coming win against you? I know I can, and what I have seen Mario do, not only production wise, but his attitude towards the media, the fans, the entire NFL couldn't be more profesional and done with more class. Who would have blamed him for crawling into a whole and pulling a Vince Young, or calling out fans and media members or just plane acting out? He could have gone buck wild yet he didn't and he took it all in stride and shut them up with his play instead of his mouth.

Mario is only 23 years old, only 23. He is younger than Chris Long and Mario has been in the league 2 years longer. He is projected to hit his prime 2 years from now when he is 25 or 26 years old. That means that we haven't even seen the best from him. Peppers is on the decline, sorry but thats the way it is. Kampman as well and only Tuck and Allen can even rival Mario in the potential catagory yet Mario is still younger than both and has even a greater ceiling than both. Only Jared Allen and DeMarcus Ware have more sacks than Mario in the last 2 years, thats huge when considering he is only a 2 and 3/4 veteren.

My homerism is high on him because if you were to look at a professional football player that is a non quarterback what other guy has this much class and that has stood in front of this much scutiny and has carried himself liek this? Very few if any have had this kind of media hate towards him that is a non criminal, and Mario has succeeded and I praise him for that and for that he is not only my favorite player, but someone I root for and consider the best player at his respective position.

bored of education
12-02-2008, 09:46 AM
Plantar Fasciitis hurts like a *****

MarioPalmer
12-02-2008, 09:47 AM
BlindSite is correct on MarioPalmer's homerism. I believe MarioPalmer's first thread was him declaring Mario Williams to be one of the best defensive players in the NFL, and that he should win DPOY. This is either his 2nd or 3rd thread devoted to praising Super Mario.

Though, he's made other threads on topics that were very insightful, and is a gifted writer in conveying his points. It's just that all of us know Super Mario is a beast of burden already. :P

Thanks for complement, and yes I am a homer and yes most of us if not all know he was the right pick. I bring it up every once in awhile to make sure that people remember how poorly he was treated and even though Vince Young looks like a gigantic bust he isn't getting nearly the hate that Mario got in his first year. So I do this to make sure all the haters and people who labled him after the 2006 draft relize how wrong they really were.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 09:55 AM
It's not like Mario Williams is the only guy in the NFL with professionalism like you make him out to be.

MarioPalmer
12-02-2008, 11:00 AM
It's not like Mario Williams is the only guy in the NFL with professionalism like you make him out to be.

Not saying he is, but under the circumstances of which he was under you have to admit that he has been above the scum of the media and some of the disgracful fans. Not many players have been able to take the beating he took and not lash out.

tjsunstein
12-02-2008, 11:20 AM
Not saying he is, but under the circumstances of which he was under you have to admit that he has been above the scum of the media and some of the disgracful fans. Not many players have been able to take the beating he took and not lash out.

I think thats expected of a player and that he shouldnt be praised for it.

Dam8610
12-02-2008, 11:45 AM
If a player lets himself get caught up in fan opinions, he's an idiot, so you're saying Mario Williams is not an idiot. If you really think he was the most hated #1 overall pick in any draft, you must not have a very long memory. Eli Manning walked up to just as many boos and not only did the Chargers fanbase hate him, most fanbases other than the Giants hated him for what he did to the Chargers. Obviously he's your favorite player and you enjoy him doing well, and that's fine, but there's no need to exaggerate things.

SMoore
12-02-2008, 11:49 AM
Alright, I admit I was overzealous, I'm just sick of hearing Mario Williams this, Mario Williams that, from this guy. Mario Williams farts and its beautiful music.

While I agree, Williams has the potential to be the best in the league and has played well this year, I don't agree he's played as well as Tuck, Peppers, Abraham or Kampman and that has nothing to do with statistics.

After watching both games, while Allen and Williams impacts have been impressive on their teams, they're not the best in the NFL and neither really deserve to be in the probowl this year when you consider the amazing play of some other defensive ends.

imo Shaun Ellis' has been amazing this year now he's finally got some help and no one is mentioning his name, no one's talking about Richard Seymor or Robert Mathis either. Quietly they're all playing just as good.

Allen definitely belongs in the pro bowl at this point. He is playing outstanding lately.

PACKmanN
12-02-2008, 12:15 PM
Mario has come into this league with more hatred, more criticism, more overall disgust then anyone ever picked in the draft. He could have completely failed and no one would've even cared because thats what they expected. He was drafted to some of the loudest boo's ever, not just from his teams fan base, but from the entire country. The Vince Young and Reggie Bush love was ridiculous in this country and the hype following them into the NFL Draft was unreal to say the least.[b]

I'm sorry, but anyone with half a brain knew that Mario was a top 3 talent.The only ones who thought he would fail were the Texans' fan base and the media. No one thought he was going to fail, and were surpirsed if he would. The lovefest for Bush and Young have no impact on the position for where Mario would be taken. He wouldn't have gone past the Titians or even the Packers if you guys would have taken Young or Bush.

Turtlepower
12-02-2008, 12:17 PM
I'm sorry, but anyone with half a brain knew that Mario was a top 3 talent.The only ones who thought he would fail were the Texans' fan base and the media. No one thought he was going to fail, and were surpirsed if he would. The lovefest for Bush and Young have no impact on the position for where Mario would be taken. He wouldn't have gone past the Titians or even the Packers if you guys would have taken Young or Bush.

I think he would've fallen to the Packers.

1. Bush
2. AJ Hawk
3. Vince Young
4. D'Brick
5. Mario Williams

PACKmanN
12-02-2008, 12:20 PM
I think he would've fallen to the Packers.

1. Bush
2. AJ Hawk
3. Vince Young
4. D'Brick
5. Mario Williams

I was saying if they would have taken Young then Mario could have gone to the Titans

Turtlepower
12-02-2008, 12:21 PM
I was saying if they would have taken Young then Mario could have gone to the Titans

Nah, I think the Titans would've taken Leinart in that instance. Well, that is all conjecture anyway.

bored of education
12-02-2008, 12:23 PM
You've been gone a while..obviously not long enough. :)

D-Rod
12-02-2008, 02:04 PM
Just think, though, if Mario had been taken by the Titans.

Haynesworth, Mario, and Vandenbosch. Ridiculous.

giantsfan
12-02-2008, 03:22 PM
If a player lets himself get caught up in fan opinions, he's an idiot, so you're saying Mario Williams is not an idiot. If you really think he was the most hated #1 overall pick in any draft, you must not have a very long memory. Eli Manning walked up to just as many boos and not only did the Chargers fanbase hate him, most fanbases other than the Giants hated him for what he did to the Chargers. Obviously he's your favorite player and you enjoy him doing well, and that's fine, but there's no need to exaggerate things.

Eli still gets hated on for that, whereas people mostly hated on mario for his engine and lack of consistent dominance in college in comparison to other great athletes Vince Young and Reggie Bush, which he has since used to motivate himself to overcome that earlier problem.

I completely agree Mario has had a tough road and he's playing very well right now in a tough situation, and physically he's just freakier than almost anyone else in the league, but he just isn't the sure fire number 1 DE in the league right now. He's a top 5 DE for sure and has the potential to be one of the great players in this league, but let's wait on crowning him and let him prove himself to be the "hands down" best DE in the league.

OzTitan
12-02-2008, 06:24 PM
I'd feel a lot better about Mario if he didn't have so many 0 sack games. 50% of the games this season he registered no sacks. Not that sacks are the end all for DE's necessarily, but it's the same knock he had coming into the NFL - consistency issues. Coming into this game, Haynesworth had more sacks than Mario, and he's a DT that is doubled most plays.

The end season numbers will be good regardless, and maybe I'm underestimating how many other DE's make their sack numbers in bunches, but he seems to be one or two 'feast games' away from a sub 10 sack season.

Shahin
12-02-2008, 07:38 PM
If a player lets himself get caught up in fan opinions, he's an idiot, so you're saying Mario Williams is not an idiot. If you really think he was the most hated #1 overall pick in any draft, you must not have a very long memory. Eli Manning walked up to just as many boos and not only did the Chargers fanbase hate him, most fanbases other than the Giants hated him for what he did to the Chargers. Obviously he's your favorite player and you enjoy him doing well, and that's fine, but there's no need to exaggerate things.

I didn't really take any time to figure out what the deal was with Eli and the Chargers, but what I heard ( i was out of the country when all this went down) was that he was drafted by San Diego and he basically refused to play with them until he was traded to the Giants.

Which leads me to believe he's a prick. You don't compare somebody who acted like a complete ***** to somebody who acted with the class and poise that Williams did. You play where you're drafted whether they are good or bad. Williams handled it like a man, E.Manning pussied out and cut to New York. He deserves the hate he got and the hate he's still getting.

And I hate the damn chargers.

scottyboy
12-02-2008, 07:45 PM
you know what's funny? Osi is a better DE than Tuck when healthy.

bored of education
12-02-2008, 07:46 PM
you know what's funny? Osi is a better DE than Tuck when healthy.

Still not as good as JA :) :) :)

d34ng3l021
12-02-2008, 08:04 PM
Still not as good as JA :) :) :)

Make that both JAs. John Abraham and Jamaal Anderson.

bored of education
12-02-2008, 08:17 PM
Make that both JAs. John Abraham and Jamaal Anderson.

Not really. Good try.

d34ng3l021
12-02-2008, 08:38 PM
Not really. Good try.

Oh were you serious about him being better than John Abraham? I thought it was sarcastic and I was just continuing it. :(

steelersfan43
12-02-2008, 10:35 PM
2,0,0,2,2,0,1,1,0,0,0,3.Sacks by week

He always explodes then goes and hides and they explodes and over again.

Bruce Banner
12-02-2008, 10:40 PM
2,0,0,2,2,0,1,1,0,0,0,3.Sacks by week

He always explodes then goes and hides and they explodes and over again.

usually deciding to "explode" against garbage opponents.

MetSox17
12-02-2008, 10:42 PM
usually deciding to "explode" against garbage opponents.

LOL i was looking at that yesterday.. in four games he had 14 tackles and 0 sacks.

D-Ware has only gone sackless in a game ONCE this season ;)

Bruce Banner
12-02-2008, 10:43 PM
LOL i was looking at that yesterday.. in four games he had 14 tackles and 0 sacks.

D-Ware has only gone sackless in a game ONCE this season ;)

Ware is a monster.

He's the guy that I always have my eye on when I am subjected to watching the 'Boys.

(almost weekly)

Bruce Banner
12-02-2008, 11:23 PM
dub post.

fwiw, on sirius radio, eric winston said that the only DE in the league with mario's level of talent is gaines adams.

LonghornsLegend
12-03-2008, 12:34 AM
While I agree, Williams has the potential to be the best in the league and has played well this year, I don't agree he's played as well as Tuck, Peppers, Abraham or Kampman and that has nothing to do with statistics.

I wish you would give the homerism a break just SOME of the time with Panthers players...What crazy high level has Julius Peppers played on the past year and a half? I'd love some examples of this.


Were talking about a guy who had 3 sacks all of last year and was completely healthy, what was his excuse then? This year he didn't even have a multi-sack game until week 10 until Oakland came strolling along, then he had his 2nd multi-sack game of the year vs Detroit in week 11 with 2, WOW so much dominance.


In comparison last year Mario Williams had at least 2 sacks in every month of the season before he closed the year in December with 8 sacks...So if were not talking statistics what is Peppers been doing the past year and a half that makes Mario pale in comparison? I can agree with the other guys, but I have seen nothing that suggest Peppers has completely outplayed Mario stats or no stats.

BlindSite
12-03-2008, 02:20 AM
I wish you would give the homerism a break just SOME of the time with Panthers players...What crazy high level has Julius Peppers played on the past year and a half? I'd love some examples of this.


Were talking about a guy who had 3 sacks all of last year and was completely healthy, what was his excuse then? This year he didn't even have a multi-sack game until week 10 until Oakland came strolling along, then he had his 2nd multi-sack game of the year vs Detroit in week 11 with 2, WOW so much dominance.


In comparison last year Mario Williams had at least 2 sacks in every month of the season before he closed the year in December with 8 sacks...So if were not talking statistics what is Peppers been doing the past year and a half that makes Mario pale in comparison? I can agree with the other guys, but I have seen nothing that suggest Peppers has completely outplayed Mario stats or no stats.


If you read what I had to say, you would've realised that I am talking about this season. The NFL is a What have you done for me lately league and I'm talking about who's been the top defensive ends, plural this year.

I didn't even say Peppers was the best this year, just that he and tuck and Abraham amongst the others I listed have been playing at a higher level.

I don't care if Mario Williams had 50 sacks last year, he's not playing better right now that Julius Peppers, or Abraham, or any of the guys I mentioned.

If you'd watch a game you'd know what I'm talking about against Arizona he was a force, against Oakland, Detroit, Greenbay and Atlanta he was a dominant force in all facets of the game. He isn't just a pass rusher, he's an every down non stop player who hasn't taken a game off all year. San Diego he showed some brilliance, the list goes on and on.

So far all you've done is call me a homer and say last year Mario Williams posted X statistics. Then you say "tell me why he's better"

You're starting an argument with an already assigned point of view in an attempt to personally attack me. I'm above feeding trolls. Watch a game here or there and don't just type nfl.com/stats to formulate an arugment.

SenorGato
12-03-2008, 09:34 PM
I think he would've fallen to the Packers.

1. Bush
2. AJ Hawk
3. Vince Young
4. D'Brick
5. Mario Williams

Totally wouldn't have made the Packers...Jets would have screwed them...Williams would have been our pick if he didn't go one...that door was wide open until the Texans went and closed it the night before.

All I can say about this thread is that I'm happy to see Williams, Tuck, and Peppers have made believers out of fans. I'm especially excited for Tuck, because I've thought he was a star in the making since his ND days. F the Giants for lucking into that. F Herm for blowing our first on Doug Jolley, and then taking a kicker with our second rounder...the year I learned drafting on talent > drafting on need.

LonghornsLegend
12-03-2008, 10:14 PM
If you read what I had to say, you would've realised that I am talking about this season. The NFL is a What have you done for me lately league and I'm talking about who's been the top defensive ends, plural this year.

I didn't even say Peppers was the best this year, just that he and tuck and Abraham amongst the others I listed have been playing at a higher level.

I don't care if Mario Williams had 50 sacks last year, he's not playing better right now that Julius Peppers, or Abraham, or any of the guys I mentioned.

If you'd watch a game you'd know what I'm talking about against Arizona he was a force, against Oakland, Detroit, Greenbay and Atlanta he was a dominant force in all facets of the game. He isn't just a pass rusher, he's an every down non stop player who hasn't taken a game off all year. San Diego he showed some brilliance, the list goes on and on.

So far all you've done is call me a homer and say last year Mario Williams posted X statistics. Then you say "tell me why he's better"

You're starting an argument with an already assigned point of view in an attempt to personally attack me. I'm above feeding trolls. Watch a game here or there and don't just type nfl.com/stats to formulate an arugment.



I love when you come out with a statement that holds no substance then when you get called on it you call everyone a "troll", I guess I'd do that too if I didn't have anything else to add to the topic at hand.


All your excuses for Carolina players are "watch the games they are so dominant", and no we aren't just throwing away last year when he looked lazy, un-motivated, and constantly taking plays off...But because he was good a few years ago and he's in a contract year now he's a top DE all over again?


I can pull up plenty of instances of this last year that have nothing to do with stats, half the time he ran up to the tackle and stood around, just because he's racked up a few sacks vs Detroit and Oakland hardly make him anywhere near a dominant DE this year, or overall for that matter...He's playing better then last year that's about it, but he's not one of the best DE's this year just because he has a ridiculous amount of potential.

RaiderNation
12-03-2008, 10:31 PM
MarioPalmer, please enough of the Mario Williams homerism. We get it, hes a great player. Im pretty all of us agree with you that hes the best DE right now. Please stop making a forum every week or so about how good Mario is
thanks
Mike Hawk

xooberon
12-04-2008, 04:50 AM
I can pull up plenty of instances of this last year that have nothing to do with stats, half the time he ran up to the tackle and stood around, just because he's racked up a few sacks vs Detroit and Oakland hardly make him anywhere near a dominant DE this year, or overall for that matter...He's playing better then last year that's about it, but he's not one of the best DE's this year just because he has a ridiculous amount of potential.

nah he has been dominant this year. against both the pass and the run he's been excellant. dunno what was going on with him last year (some kind of infection apparently) but yeah without him we're 3-9, he's been that good.

BlindSite
12-04-2008, 05:46 AM
I love when you come out with a statement that holds no substance then when you get called on it you call everyone a "troll", I guess I'd do that too if I didn't have anything else to add to the topic at hand.

What holds no substance? That a player who's play is being heiled as the primary reason for Carolina's defense come back Along with other defensive ends, which I mentioned and you ignored, is/are playing better than Mario Williams

You are being a troll, you're taking what I said and you're picking an choosing portions of it to label me and personally attack me. You haven't mentioned the other defensive ends I've talked about, just attacked my opinion for including a defensive end who's playing at an exceptional level because he plays for Carolina. This would be like me calling you a homer for saying DMW has been playing like one of the best OLBs in the league...


All your excuses for Carolina players are "watch the games they are so dominant", and no we aren't just throwing away last year when he looked lazy, un-motivated, and constantly taking plays off...But because he was good a few years ago and he's in a contract year now he's a top DE all over again?

He's had one bad year in a career where he's never been mentioned as anything other than a top 5 defensive end and all of a sudden he sucks? You want to act like a pain in the ass and change the discussion to suit your argument, then at least acknowledge the fact that Peppers has been a dominant DE for a lot longer than Mario Williams has. You want to talk about longevity as a DE, Peppers has been recognised as a dominant force in more years that Williams has even been playing.


I can pull up plenty of instances of this last year that have nothing to do with stats, half the time he ran up to the tackle and stood around, just because he's racked up a few sacks vs Detroit and Oakland hardly make him anywhere near a dominant DE this year, or overall for that matter...He's playing better then last year that's about it, but he's not one of the best DE's this year just because he has a ridiculous amount of potential.

You can not, he got 4 sacks in those two games. He got 2 against Greenbay. He's been playing better in the run game than he has in the pass anyway.

All you've done in this thread is highlight my name and say "blindsite you're a homer for suggesting a player that is having a great year statistically and to the eye of everyone watching football (except me) is playing at a higher level than Williams because he had great games against weaker opponents and has had one bad year in an otherwise stellar career"

Do you realise just how rediculous you sound?

TitanHope
12-04-2008, 03:44 PM
Thanks for complement, and yes I am a homer and yes most of us if not all know he was the right pick. I bring it up every once in awhile to make sure that people remember how poorly he was treated and even though Vince Young looks like a gigantic bust he isn't getting nearly the hate that Mario got in his first year. So I do this to make sure all the haters and people who labled him after the 2006 draft relize how wrong they really were.

Vince Young was labeled as suicidal, immature, and a quitter after false reports from the media earlier this season. Any criticism Mario Williams received was due to other players' successes, and many realized that it wasn't on him. If anything, the Texans FO was criticized most because they chose Williams over Bush and Young, so Mario wasn't "hated on." Many analysts came to his defense by saying he's got all the talent and has the potential to be better than Bush and Young.

Just because a ton of casual fans wanted skill position players over a defensive player doesn't mean Mario Williams was subjected to criticism worse than other players around the NFL. That's the territory of a #1 pick. Knowledgeable fans would have said that DE's take at least a season to develop, and that Mario's first season shouldn't be judged. Most posters here are the latter of the two.

Williams has shown character in his first few seasons - no doubt about that. Is it something to be shouting from the threadtops about? I wouldn't say so.

datchapin
12-06-2008, 02:35 PM
I'm a big Texan's fan, thus also a Williams fan. I'm not about to debate alot of the things that have been said on here. I'm just gonna say to Mario Palmer that the talent that surrounds Williams is not exactly trash. TJ may be a bust because of where he was picked, but considering the situation it can't be blamed on the players. After the Cleveland game there was a very telling quote from Mario when he was asked by the media about the tackle on on J. Lewis. Mario said he told the line coach he wasn't going to read and go, but go and read. This is the same type of situation he had in college. Anyways the point here is that the coaching philosophy is something that may hold our players back as much. Last year Okoye had 4-5 sacks,(sorry, don't have the stats in front of me right now.) this year he's been almost non-existent. The last few games after realizing how slim our playoff hopes are our DC's have become a little more aggressive. Okoye is not a read and go type of player he's better making the reads once he's in the backfield. Also Bullman was signed of waivers and is doing a solid job. I love Mario to death, but if only our dc's would let all our D off the leash I would say I love our d-line. Also to those who say Mario is not in the same class a J. Peppers, just imagine if Mario played go and react on almost every down.

Another thing, I'm a Texans homer, but man even I can get tired of threads made to DR one of our players.

CT Bronco Fan
12-06-2008, 03:35 PM
I still cry a little bit when I think that Tuck was almost a Bronco 8( 8(

MarioPalmer
12-06-2008, 03:57 PM
Well glad to see a thread I posted just to stir the pot after a great game by my favorite player got so much attention. I guess.

But in seriousness, Mario is a beast, talk about him being inconsistent then you didn't see the Cleveland game where he destroyed Joe Thomas. No sacks, but he just killed him, remember Joe Thomas? The guy who was declared as the next Orlando Pace after his rookie year? Yeah that same guy was penalized 5 times, or was it 4, regardless he was owned to say the least. Mario has something special and I like to highlight it because of the poor defense he plays on and the poor franchise he suits up for. I don’t think that he, nor guys like Peppers, Kampman, and Allen until this year get nearly the attention they deserve. I shouldn’t feel bad or apologetic for me being a homer and screaming from the roof tops that Mario is, in my opinion, the best DE in the game.

My reasons for that extend beyond the football field and onto his off the field actions as well as his play. I feel that his lead by example attitude, his character, his professionalism, his work ethic, his overall aura to his surrounding team mates and coaches are just awesome. You can’t put a price on him as a person when combined with him as a player. I think that’s why he is the best player at his position and personally would take him over any defensive player in the league if I were to start a franchise.

For starters I will try to argue a few points made in this thread. The Eli Manning comparison to Mario is unjust to say the least. The fans distaste for Eli was self inflicted and brought on entirely for being a pompous ass that was interested in more what his father, brother and agent all felt was the best for Eli instead of Eli just allowing the process to take place. Yes, the big reason for Eli to go to the NFC was so that he and his brother would some day play against each other in the Super Bowl. But to hold a franchise hostage with the #1 overall pick just top get your way is completely different from being hated because you were picked in front of the two most hyped players ever to come out of college football. And the hatred for Mario was real by the fans. If you listened or had any clue what the fans of the Texans were saying before the start of the 2006 season you would be appalled. It was bad, and yes some criticism comes with being the #1 overall pick but to be broken down and belittled and ridiculed and basically given up on and called a failure before ever stepping on the field is just down right disgusting and embarrassing. Eli was hated because of what he did, Mario was hated because of things he had no control over. Huge difference there considering the circumstances.

Next, I would like to say that a 4-3 DE is more important than a 3-4 OLB. Sorry, but in terms of their respective draft positions the 4-3 player will almost always go ahead of the 3-4 player. Only has Lawrence Taylor gone in the top 3 as a pure rush outside linebacker. Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Gaines Adams, Chris Long, Simeon Rice, etc. will always go higher than the DeMarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, Manny Lawson, Anthony Spencer, Kamerion Wimbley, Vernon Gholston, etc. Why do I say this? Because the odds of finding a dominant 4-3 DE in later rounds with the athletic ability, football sense, production and potential are greater than finding a 3-4 OLB in the later rounds. Yes there are the exceptions. Jared Allen, Aaron Kampman and Justin Tuck will be overlooked during the process and will fall through the cracks, but just look at some of the most productive 3-4 OLB’s in recent years. Joey Porter (Drafted 3rd Round), Mike Vrabel (Drafted 3rd Round), Adalius Thomas (Drafted 6th Round), James Harrison (Undrafted Free Agent Signee) Shaun Phillips (Drafted 4th Round), etc. So you can find more than suitable players that can fit this scheme in later rounds. Not saying that spending a high round pick on them isn’t worth it. Just look at the studs that have come out in these last few years. Ware, Merriman, Pace, Suggs, etc. They are all certified Pro-Bowl talents that have made huge impacts on the game. But in terms of worth to the conventional NFL Draft thinking the top end, elite talented 4-3 DE, just like the elite OLT and elite QB are all worthy of the #1 overall pick without much controversy.

As for the 2 positions, while they might hold the sacks in high regard the 4-3 DE has the tougher position to uphold. The 43 DE will always have a tackle lined up across from him, and the elite 43 DE will almost always have the chip or a TE lined up next to the OT to help block him. The 34 OLB will have chances to be lined up with out a tackle directly in front of him. He will also have the advantage of playing standing up, where he will have the advantage of all ready being in full extension when colliding with a blocker. Also the 34 OLB has a lesser reliability to be stout in the run game. His job is to flow to where the play is and clean up, where the 43 DE is responsible for being strong at the point of attack and collapsing his side of the line. The DE is also responsible for going laterally down the line which is one of the hardest maneuvers in football to accomplish. Especially when trying to sift through the trash along the line of scrimmage. The 34 OLB has a more likely chance of being unblocked where as the DE will always be blocked and he will always have to go through at least one person to get to the QB. In my opinion the DE has a much more important and more powerful job at hand.

As for the comparison to Julius Peppers. I think that I should elaborate on my statements so that it doesn’t cause more confusion. Peppers was once the toast of the NFL. Pep was once the “it” guy at the 4-3 DE position. He had everything and still does have everything to be a dominant force in the NFL. His athleticism along with his speed and power ratio is almost unmatched and was until 2006. Mario Williams has taken over as the prototype 4-3 defensive end. He just has. He is bigger, stronger, just as fast, just as explosive and just as athletic as Julius Peppers. He is just younger and it’s his time to take over for Peppers as the top dog in the 43 DE worlds. Yes this league is a “what have you done for me lately” league. But you can’t dismiss last year’s flop that he had as just a bad year. It is a sign of things to come, whether you as Peppers or Panthers fans want to admit it. If he was such a dominant player after last year and that last year was nothing to worry about than why let Julius go this long without contract negotiations? Why allow Peppers to go this long in the year without signing him to a contract extension of resigning him? To me, just as the Titans did this year with Albert Haynesworth and making sure that he play at an elite level before talking to him the Panthers are doing the same with Julius Peppers. There is no doubt that football players hit their decline in their late 20’s and early 30’s and Julius Peppers is entering that age now. So there is no doubt that his play and physical ability will falter. It’s inevitable. With Mario being on an ascending swing at the early age of 23 years old and Julius Peppers being on the descending decline if his career at 28 years old it’s obvious which one is in a better place right now.

I love Julius Peppers, I really do, he was the first defensive end that I have seen that had that combination of speed, power and pure athleticism that I, personally, have witnessed. And Peppers was a truly awesome site to behold, but it’s time for him to pass the torch and move on, he is on the verge of being an all time great and on being enshrined into the Pro Football Hall of Fame, but he is no longer “the” defensive end like he was from 2002-2006. He still is an elite player but he is not the elite defensive player that he once was. With that said, I would love for him to play opposite Mario Williams next year in the Blue Steel and Battle Red. Seriously, that would just be fantastic.

Mario Williams is the guy, it might be a homer saying it, but you can’t deny that when you see him playing that he is truly an awe inspiring player and sublime talent to watch.

Bruce Banner
12-06-2008, 04:54 PM
You're obsessed.

Gay Ork Wang
12-06-2008, 05:40 PM
lol for Julius Peppers in the HoF. Just really big lol

giantsfan
12-06-2008, 07:46 PM
I'm sorry but if mario gets points for being a professional Tuck gets points for making OG crap themselves during film study.

BlindSite
12-06-2008, 09:05 PM
As for the comparison to Julius Peppers. I think that I should elaborate on my statements so that it doesnít cause more confusion. Peppers was once the toast of the NFL. Pep was once the ďitĒ guy at the 4-3 DE position. He had everything and still does have everything to be a dominant force in the NFL. His athleticism along with his speed and power ratio is almost unmatched and was until 2006. Mario Williams has taken over as the prototype 4-3 defensive end. He just has. He is bigger, stronger, just as fast, just as explosive and just as athletic as Julius Peppers. He is just younger and itís his time to take over for Peppers as the top dog in the 43 DE worlds. Yes this league is a ďwhat have you done for me latelyĒ league. But you canít dismiss last yearís flop that he had as just a bad year. It is a sign of things to come, whether you as Peppers or Panthers fans want to admit it. If he was such a dominant player after last year and that last year was nothing to worry about than why let Julius go this long without contract negotiations? Why allow Peppers to go this long in the year without signing him to a contract extension of resigning him?

Julius Peppers is 6-7 283, Williams is 6-6 283. He isn't bigger. He might have him on strength, that is impossible to quantify but he doesn't have him on flat line speed. Peppers runs sprints with the running backs, not the linemen and any of his career highlight reels will show him running down fast QBs and RBs from the other side of the field. Hell, look at his TD run backs from fumbles, his INT's in coverage. Look at his covering speed in the GB game highlights where he knocked the bejayzus out of Rogers.

As for being on the downside of his career, he's 2 sacks away from equalling his career best of 13 and if history is any kind of indicator he has another 5 to 7 years of play in him. Strahan played for 15 years, rice for 12 and to date Peppers has no injury history.

On the other point, the Panthers spent a lot of last season and the offseason trying to hammer out a contract agreement. Its not in the Panthers front office Modeus Operandi to negotiate during the regular season. To date there's only been one or two players given extensions during the regular season, you just don't see it happen. The idea behind not extending him was to take the big cap hit this year and have more space free to get him signed (and others this offseason).

Mario Williams is a great up and coming player, but he's not the best defensive end in the NFL. Not yet anyway.

MarioPalmer
12-06-2008, 10:45 PM
No Mario Williams is 6'8 291lbs. thats a fact. look at any official Texan website or program. He is THE biggest pure 4-3 DE. Sorry, but its the truth. Go and look at his combine numbers. Peppers is actually at 6'7 280lbs playing weight.

As for their Pre Draft results go, Mario destroys Julius is reps at 35 at 225lbs. while Peppers goes 22 reps at 225lbs. The 40 is about the same with Mario at 4.7 and Julius 4.68. Don't know Julius's vert, but I'm sure it's at least as good as Mario's which was 40.5 inches.

Mario, as you all ready know plays against the offensive left tackle on 90% of his snaps while Peppers plays against the offensive right tackle at around 99% of the snaps. He has also had Kris Jenkins, Ma'ake Kemoeatu, Damione Lewis and Mike Rucker these past few years with exception of this year. While Mario Williams has had Travis Johnson, Amobi Okoye and Anthony Weaver. There is a huge difference in talent and production from the players' team mates. Actually there is no comparison. Remember, Kris Jenkins was once the most feared DT in the NFL until he was hurt in his 2005 season and his 2006 season. Then he came back and regained his dominance. But before his injuries he was "the" elite 4-3 defensive tackle. Mario was supposed to have that in at least one of the two former 1rst rounders, Johnson or Okoye, yet he hasn't gotten anything remotely resembling an elite talent from either one. With that said, Peppers has also had elite line backing play to go along with solid to superb secondary play. Only Dunte Robinson and DeMeco Ryans fits in that catagory and DeMeco has been exposed as just a highly productive high motor player that is light on talent and athleticism. While Dunte Robinson missed most of last year and is still coming back from a devestating knee injury this year. Not exactly the combination of Chris Gamble, Ken Lucas and Richard Marshall. And as good as DeMeco can be, I would take Jon Beason over him and there is no body on the Texans that even comes close to Thomas Davis's level of talent and athleticism. Yes you do have safety weakness's but we have never had a safety to even call him a weakness. That position has been non exsistent here since their inception. While you have had at least Mike Minter who, to me, is on the same level as John Lynch and Rodney Harrison just never got the hype and attention.

I love Peppers, I really do, and I in no doubt think that he won't be playing on a high level for the next 6-7 years. He has the tools to be a thorn in quarterbacks sides for the next decade if he wanted to, but does he have that desire? Was his 2007 season just a fluke? Those questions have to be answered before I call him "the" DE again like I did every year from 2002-2006.

Also, to the people that laughed about Julius Peppers being a Hall of Fame candidate, you obviously don't know what your talking about. Before last year you would have called him the best DE of this decade. His years from 2002-2006 were some of the most dominant seasons from any DE. His 7 sack run when the Panthers went to the Super Bowl was mind numbing and so awesome that even Reggie White and Bruce Smith would pay homage to that feat. I don't know about you, but the best player at his position during the decade of which he played certainly deserves HoF attention and distinction. So please, don't comment or make stupid comments if you can't back up your argument. It's embarressing to have to share a thread with you when you do that. I'd appreciate it if you went to someone elses thread and made stupid jokes and dumb analysis.

Dam8610
12-06-2008, 10:49 PM
No Mario Williams is 6'8 291lbs. thats a fact. look at any official Texan website or program. He is THE biggest pure 4-3 DE. Sorry, but its the truth. Go and look at his combine numbers. Peppers is actually at 6'7 280lbs playing weight.

As for their Pre Draft results go, Mario destroys Julius is reps at 35 at 225lbs. while Peppers goes 22 reps at 225lbs. The 40 is about the same with Mario at 4.7 and Julius 4.68. Don't know Julius's vert, but I'm sure it's at least as good as Mario's which was 40.5 inches.

Mario, as you all ready know plays against the offensive left tackle on 90% of his snaps while Peppers plays against the offensive right tackle at around 99% of the snaps. He has also had Kris Jenkins, Ma'ake Kemoeatu, Damione Lewis and Mike Rucker these past few years with exception of this year. While Mario Williams has had Travis Johnson, Amobi Okoye and Anthony Weaver. There is a huge difference in talent and production from the players' team mates. Actually there is no comparison. Remember, Kris Jenkins was once the most feared DT in the NFL until he was hurt in his 2005 season and his 2006 season. Then he came back and regained his dominance. But before his injuries he was "the" elite 4-3 defensive tackle. Mario was supposed to have that in at least one of the two former 1rst rounders, Johnson or Okoye, yet he hasn't gotten anything remotely resembling an elite talent from either one. With that said, Peppers has also had elite line backing play to go along with solid to superb secondary play. Only Dunte Robinson and DeMeco Ryans fits in that catagory and DeMeco has been exposed as just a highly productive high motor player that is light on talent and athleticism. While Dunte Robinson missed most of last year and is still coming back from a devestating knee injury this year. Not exactly the combination of Chris Gamble, Ken Lucas and Richard Marshall. And as good as DeMeco can be, I would take Jon Beason over him and there is no body on the Texans that even comes close to Thomas Davis's level of talent and athleticism. Yes you do have safety weakness's but we have never had a safety to even call him a weakness. That position has been non exsistent here since their inception. While you have had at least Mike Minter who, to me, is on the same level as John Lynch and Rodney Harrison just never got the hype and attention.

I love Peppers, I really do, and I in no doubt think that he won't be playing on a high level for the next 6-7 years. He has the tools to be a thorn in quarterbacks sides for the next decade if he wanted to, but does he have that desire? Was his 2007 season just a fluke? Those questions have to be answered before I call him "the" DE again like I did every year from 2002-2006.

Also, to the people that laughed about Julius Peppers being a Hall of Fame candidate, you obviously don't know what your talking about. Before last year you would have called him the best DE of this decade. His years from 2002-2006 were some of the most dominant seasons from any DE. His 7 sack run when the Panthers went to the Super Bowl was mind numbing and so awesome that even Reggie White and Bruce Smith would pay homage to that feat. I don't know about you, but the best player at his position during the decade of which he played certainly deserves HoF attention and distinction. So please, don't comment or make stupid comments if you can't back up your argument. It's embarressing to have to share a thread with you when you do that. I'd appreciate it if you went to someone elses thread and made stupid jokes and dumb analysis.

Haven't you written enough books about Mario Williams yet?

MarioPalmer
12-06-2008, 10:51 PM
You posted this why?^ You don't like it, don't read it. Go be a tool some where else.

Dam8610
12-06-2008, 10:53 PM
You posted this why?^ You don't like it, don't read it. Go be a tool some where else.

I'm pretty sure everyone got your point two pages ago. You think Mario Williams is great and you want everyone to know it. Got it. Why does this thread still have to clutter the top of the forum?

giantsfan
12-06-2008, 10:56 PM
If peppers gets himself into the conversation for best DE in the league over the next 5 years at least then we can talk about the HoF but while he amy have been the freakist DE in the league from 2002-2006 he certainly wasn't far and away the best DE in the league over those same seasons.

MarioPalmer
12-06-2008, 11:02 PM
i've only posted 4 times, that means 59 posts weren't made by me, that means this topic was popular, maybe not you, but to others it was and by the way, you made it even more popular by posting and keeping it at the top, so once again, go be a hater somewhere else. If you don't want to see it anymore then don't post and ignore it.

Some people pride themselves in being able to argue points instead of just saying so and so sucks and my team rocks. Not exactly the most intelligent argument and thats why some people fail to ever get their point across. I actually try to make my point visiable and worthy of being at the least considered, thats why I write what I write. If you don't want to read it then don't and certainly don't post or my thread will certainly stay atop the board.

MarioPalmer
12-06-2008, 11:04 PM
If peppers gets himself into the conversation for best DE in the league over the next 5 years at least then we can talk about the HoF but while he amy have been the freakist DE in the league from 2002-2006 he certainly wasn't far and away the best DE in the league over those same seasons.

I agree completely, but you have to at least consider him HoF worthy. I consider Dwight Freeney, Jason Taylor, Simeon Rice along with Peppers as all HoF worthy. I would gladley take them over some of the defensive players that have been accpeted into the "Hall".

I think had Peppers been more of intense and mental type player he would have been accepted more as the #1 DE during those times. To me he was, but to others like yourself he wasn't. I think thats a huge shame, his talent is on the same level as Bruce Smith, Reggie White Too Tall Jones and Deacon Jones but his mental aspect of the game has never been quite on the same level, thats where I think fans of the NFL have had their differences with him.

giantsfan
12-06-2008, 11:05 PM
The problem is that when you're discussing DEs you bring pure physical ability into the conversation too much, we all know peppers is a freak and mario's even freakier, the problem is do they use that freakiness to be as good as guys who aren't as freaky and IMO neither has ever clearly been the number DE in the league like you seem to believe.

giantsfan
12-06-2008, 11:07 PM
I agree completely, but you have to at least consider him HoF worthy. I consider Dwight Freeney, Jason Taylor, Simeon Rice along with Peppers as all HoF worthy. I would gladley take them over some of the defensive players that have been accpeted into the "Hall".

Not yet. Jason Taylor and Simeon Rice are hall worthy, but peppers isn't hall worthy yet and would have to re-establish himself as a top 5 DE over the next 5 years at least before I even gave him a thought. making the hall is more than being the most physically impressive guy at your position, it should entail being an elite player for an extended period of time or barring longevity at least remarkable dominance, JPep has neither. In time he could be a hall of fame DE but the same could be said for Osi, Tuck, Allen, kampman and a **** ton of other DEs who ultimately won't be hall worthy.

Loggerhead
12-06-2008, 11:32 PM
Mario Williams and Julius Peppers are about the same player right now. They both have 11.0 sacks and 41 tackles while Peppers also has 4 passes defensed. To me Julius Peppers is still the best best DE in the NFL. Peppers just has that ability to take over any game when he wants to that I have never seen from another DE. Right now Peppers is dominating the NFL with 7 sacks in his last 4 games including 2 against the Packers in his most recent game. Peppers was also just awarded the NFL Defensive Player of the Month for November. Of those 4 games he had 3 multi sack games and 3 forced fumbles. Peppers is starting to look like a DPOTY while Mario didn't even have a sack in 3 of his last 4 games. Peppers is not even close to declining and last year was an aberation. Look at the list of DE's who have been effective since age 30: Strahan, Rucker, Rice, Kerney, Howard, Ellis, Taylor, etc. have done good after they turned 30.

BlindSite
12-06-2008, 11:42 PM
Mario williams isn't as big a role player, he can't drop into coverage as well and doesn't chase down the line anywhere near as well.

Bruce Banner
12-06-2008, 11:44 PM
Mario williams isn't as big a role player, he can't drop into coverage as well and doesn't chase down the line anywhere near as well.

^

Very underrated aspect of a DE's game.

Mario isn't anywhere near top tier doing this.

MarioPalmer
12-06-2008, 11:48 PM
Not yet. Jason Taylor and Simeon Rice are hall worthy, but peppers isn't hall worthy yet and would have to re-establish himself as a top 5 DE over the next 5 years at least before I even gave him a thought. making the hall is more than being the most physically impressive guy at your position, it should entail being an elite player for an extended period of time or barring longevity at least remarkable dominance, JPep has neither. In time he could be a hall of fame DE but the same could be said for Osi, Tuck, Allen, kampman and a **** ton of other DEs who ultimately won't be hall worthy.

Excellent point and definitly something that I will consider from now on. I love the physical marvels that some of these elite players have and yes I do get blinded by it.....sometimes. But thats not to say that I'm completely blinded by their athleticism. I have never been a Michael Vick, Vince Young, Darren McFadden, Mike Williams (OT and WR), Jimmy Kennedy or the unbelievably lame Vernon Davis fan, who by the way was the biggest fraud and actually beat out Mike Mammula as the biggest workout warrior ever to enter the NFL Draft, but thats another thread for another time. I love guys like Mario Williams, Julius Peppers, Andre Johnson, Randy Moss, Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning, LaDanian Tomlinson, DeMarcus Ware, Shawn Merriman, Orlando Pace, Marcus Stroud, Albert Haynesworth (when he's playing like this), Gaines Adams, Patrick Willis, etc.

But I think that the truely great football players have that elite athleticism to build off of. Most people would say that Jerry Rice is the greatest receiver to ever play. I would tend to disagree. My pick for the best WR is Randy Moss. Who is more dominant? The NFL is predicated on speed and physical talent, and to me the most dominant players are guys like Moss, Peppers, Hutchenson, Dickerson, etc. Thats not saying that guys like Howie Long, Walter Payton, Ty Law, Thurman Thomas, Tim Brown, etc. weren't all special players that are more than worthy of being mentioned as the greats. I just tend to look at the ones with that special "once in a lifetime ability". I would take Orlando Pace over any OLT to ever play the game. Just like I would take Elway, Marino and Manning over any quarterback who has ever played. The same way I would take Barry Sanders, LT and Eric Dickerson over any other RB that has ever played. Lawrence Taylor, Brian Urlacher, Ray Lewis, Sean Taylor, Rod Woodson (CB), Ed Reed, Deon Sanders, Champ Bailey, would all be my picks for their respective positions.

I'm a prototype fan. I guess thats a con, but it's something that I hold true as a fan of football. I don't like players like Kurt Warner, Drew Brees and Isaac Bruce. Thats just something I have to work on. I guess thats one of the reasons why I hold Mario in such high regard. It's the same reason why I held Julius Peppers so high.

MarioPalmer
12-06-2008, 11:52 PM
Mario williams isn't as big a role player, he can't drop into coverage as well and doesn't chase down the line anywhere near as well.

Hopefully you can give him some time to work on that aspect of his game. He has been asked to drop into coverage more this year, but because of the horrible system and poor talent around him he has to stick to one thing game after game. Because there literally is no one else to rush, he has to. Hopefully that will change when the Texans can start filling in missing sections of the defense. If they can get a solid rusher opposite of Mario then he can be more of threat dropping into coverage and chasing down plays on the opposite side of the field.

bearfan
12-06-2008, 11:58 PM
Im gonna go out on a limb and say that Mark Anderson will be better than Mario Williams. He only rides the bench now because it wouldnt be fair to put him out on the field.

giantsfan
12-06-2008, 11:59 PM
Yeah I think you're significantly over-rating a guys potential to dominate and severily down playing how consistently and regularly a guy does dominate. Too me consistency is much more impressive and key to successful football than sporadic dominance. Which is why some of my favorite all time players are guys who you knew would deliver every game and go out there and do their jobs. I'm talking guys like Johnny Unitas, Walter Payton, Bruce Smith, and Michael Strahan. In recent years guys like Drew Brees who really master their position by mastering the nuance and technique are guys that really impress me. There are plenty of freaks of nature in the world, now if one of those freaks masters the nuances of his job and plays tough and intelligent consistently then that's incredibly, but most of the time these guys can get by in the regular season on their athleticism to a degree and so they ultimately don't develop the consistency and polish to be effective against the very best in the playoffs.

MarioPalmer
12-07-2008, 12:08 AM
Yeah I think you're significantly over-rating a guys potential to dominate and severily down playing how consistently and regularly a guy does dominate. Too me consistency is much more impressive and key to successful football than sporadic dominance. Which is why some of my favorite all time players are guys who you knew would deliver every game and go out there and do their jobs. I'm talking guys like Johnny Unitas, Walter Payton, Bruce Smith, and Michael Strahan. In recent years guys like Drew Brees who really master their position by mastering the nuance and technique are guys that really impress me. There are plenty of freaks of nature in the world, now if one of those freaks masters the nuances of his job and plays tough and intelligent consistently then that's incredibly, but most of the time these guys can get by in the regular season on their athleticism to a degree and so they ultimately don't develop the consistency and polish to be effective against the very best in the playoffs.


Excellent way of putting it. Hopefully because the haterism and negativety that Mario received as a rookie and a prospect he will ocntinue to work hard on playing consistently and mastering every single aspect of the positio and the game. It will be very interesting to see how things shake out in the near future.

scottyboy
12-07-2008, 09:34 AM
"Osi Umenyiora is better and more productive than Julius Peppers"

MarioPalmer
12-07-2008, 12:30 PM
"Osi Umenyiora is better and more productive than Julius Peppers"

Well, maybe these last 2 years, but this year is obviously incomplete since Osi is out. But the argument can certainly be made. Osi is defintly on the top 10 list, but I don't know if many people would take him over Justin Tuck.