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View Full Version : 4-3 Pass Rushing Run Stuffing DT: Jerry, Marks or Other?


toddmlazarchick
12-05-2008, 02:50 AM
Im a skins fan and we need a DT who can collapse the pocket and still stuff the run. I think it boils down to Jerry or Marks. But Id like others opinions. Who do you think of the 2 is better to fold the pocket and still stand up against the run of the 2 of them and why? Also if you have a day 2 player who might fit the mold then lets hear something about who it is and why?

PACKmanN
12-05-2008, 02:52 AM
Vince can also do both pretty good.

Don Vito
12-05-2008, 03:44 AM
Jerry has been blowing up plays in the backfield, he is very solid against the run. If anyone saw the LSU game or any Ole Miss game this year they know that. Personally, I would take Jerry. Call me a homer but I think he is the best all around DT in this class. Out of guys who project best into a 4-3 I think Jerry is definitely the best run stuffer as well as being a solid pass rusher.

Don't get me wrong, Marks is a freak of nature with all of the ability in the world. He could go high due to a somewhat weak senior DT class, but I think he should stick around one more year.

giantsfan
12-05-2008, 04:16 AM
If McCoy doesn't come out Vince Oghobaase is my favorite DT in this draft, that said he doesn't have quite as much physical potential as marks and isn't playing against the level of competition Jerry is. I love Marks' potential but I think Vince O can be more dominant as he can be massive NT who also collapses the pocket

Paranoidmoonduck
12-05-2008, 04:23 AM
Jerry has been the best guy this season, but I sorta wonder if it'll cross over into the pro's. I think it might harder for him to generate a pass rush in the NFL, just as I think it will be for Sedrick Ellis and like it has been for Brandon Mebane. I think he could definitely do alright as a pass rusher, especially if he lands in a 4-3 system next to a top level NT, but outside of that situation he's going to make most of his plays in the run game.

Marks definitely has top level physical talent, but his inconsistency this season worries me a bit. If Gerald McCoy comes out, I'd say he has the potential to be that guy, but I doubt he lasts until Washington's pick. Oghobaase is a tough guy to analyze, because if he's just 300 lbs at 6-6, he's might be worryingly light for real inside work, which makes him more attractive as a 5-tech in a 3-4 defense. If he weighs in higher and I see more consistent leverage from him (I haven't had a chance to see much Duke football yet, something I'll try and rectify), then I like him as a UT. He sure is quick off the line.

giantsfan
12-05-2008, 04:29 AM
With how fast O is off the snap he should be able to beat many lineman to the point of attack negated his height disadvantage in the battle for leverage. I'm a big fan of his play the times I've caught him.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-05-2008, 04:31 AM
With how fast O is off the snap he should be able to beat many lineman to the point of attack negated his height disadvantage in the battle for leverage. I'm a big fan of his play the times I've caught him.

He certainly has been in college, but he's tall enough and doesn't always get low enough that an NFL guard with a good base would be able to knock him off balance even if Oghobaase gets a good jump. We'll see. I want to like Oghobaase, because I like a lot of what I see, but there are a couple red flags that shoot up.

giantsfan
12-05-2008, 04:37 AM
Albert Haynesworth is tall DT, 6'5" himself and wasn't much over 300 pounds when he came into the league, Vince will be able to bulk up and usual shoots out nice and low which is why I don't see leverage being that much of a problem for him, he doesn't really play very tall and keeps driving and trying to penetrate. As previously mentioned I'm a big fan of his and see potential to be a great defender in him.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-05-2008, 04:59 AM
Albert Haynesworth was 320 at the 2002 NFL Combine and ran a 5.09.

Size-wise, in college, there's no real comparison. Haynesworth was a monster and Oghobaase looks a little more like a base end.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m249/paranoidmoonduck/Haynesworth.jpg http://www.lindyssports.com/images/content/2398-200.jpg

Don Vito
12-05-2008, 05:41 AM
I really like Oghobaase as a 5 tech in the 3-4. He is a beast but he wouldn't be able to get leverage or under the pads of most guards in the NFL, and yes there are some tall 4-3 DTs in the NFL but as PMD said he is probably a lot better of as a 3-4 end. He is a hell of a prospect there.

I believe Jerry will be a solid player in the NFL. He is by no means a 6-4 310 4.9 pound freak; but he is well polished, strong, has all of the intangibles, and has a great motor. He is a great college player who might not be a dominant pro, but I think he will be a great leader and solid player for some team.

As far as McCoy is concerned, he is that 6-4 310 4.9 freak. Maybe not those numbers exactly but man he has all of the potential in the world. McCoy is one of those special prospects that every team salivates over because he could play end in a 3-4 as well as both spots in a 4-3 (even though NT could be kind of a waste of some of his abilities). I really hope he stays in school, I really do think he has the potential to be a Haynesworth type player with his ability and versatiliy.

CashmoneyDrew
12-05-2008, 12:16 PM
Dan Williams is a beast. I just hope he stays for his senior year.

STARHEATHER
12-05-2008, 08:50 PM
other draft them and teams will be better running than they already are gainst wash . its not a good division to be soft and undersized vs the run. not going to win many if you let thise teams run the ball effectively. if draft peria Jerry/marks its going to be bad. just think of what happened in to them vs bama. gaping holes all day for marion barber and brandon acobs. not good.

eaglesalltheway
12-05-2008, 08:52 PM
Who else knew that^ was coming?

STARHEATHER
12-05-2008, 09:01 PM
of course. my disdain for undersized 4-3 ut with high picks is well documented

eaglesalltheway
12-05-2008, 09:04 PM
As we all know, but you do realize not all undersized UTs fail right?

STARHEATHER
12-05-2008, 09:07 PM
i dont like them as high picks. few are great players. and less and less are good as the game evolves away from that scheme and that type player. late rds for me.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-05-2008, 09:08 PM
other draft them and teams will be better running than they already are gainst wash . its not a good division to be soft and undersized vs the run. not going to win many if you let thise teams run the ball effectively. if draft peria Jerry/marks its going to be bad. just think of what happened in to them vs bama. gaping holes all day for marion barber and brandon acobs. not good.

And think of what happened to Terrance Cody when LSU put up 180 rushing yards. And BJ Raji when Georgia Tech put up 150 yards rushing. And Gerald McCoy when Texas put up 160 yards rushing. And to every single awesome college defensive tackle at least several times in their college career.

If you're not going to evaluate players on themselves and only on the stats that the defense they play on surrenders, then I'm not even sure why you bother to post. You obviously take more time constructing falsehoods through statlines than you do trying to scout players.

STARHEATHER
12-05-2008, 09:20 PM
that was in one game. theyre average per game was about 70 yds. so if they gave up 180 to lsu what did they do in the rest of the games.first game back from injury. and if you you watch the tape almost all their yards were when cody was not in the game. he played sparingly. i think it showed how much they missed cody

PACKmanN
12-05-2008, 10:39 PM
Albert Haynesworth was 320 at the 2002 NFL Combine and ran a 5.09.

Size-wise, in college, there's no real comparison. Haynesworth was a monster and Oghobaase looks a little more like a base end.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m249/paranoidmoonduck/Haynesworth.jpg http://www.lindyssports.com/images/content/2398-200.jpg

Stroud is 6'6 and 310. He also a top 10 DT in the league.

http://cache.gettyimages.com/xc/52035488.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1939847EC77F5F8D1CEC5DF6F58610EBC17 A40A659CEC4C8CB6
pretty similar if you ask me.

Malaka
12-05-2008, 10:42 PM
Sen'Derrick Marks is the best pass rushing DT IMO, he would be perfect for a cover 2 team, like the Bucs, Colts, etc. or even a great pass rushing team like the Giants can use him. I like him the best out of all the DTs in this years class I think he can be Warren Sapp 2.0.

Mr. Stiller
12-06-2008, 12:43 AM
I don't know why Raji isn't being considered for the 3 Tech/UT position.

They guy can handle 2 blockers, stuff the run and the guy can get after the QB and probably has the most explosion off the snap.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-06-2008, 01:00 AM
I don't know why Raji isn't being considered for the 3 Tech/UT position.

They guy can handle 2 blockers, stuff the run and the guy can get after the QB and probably has the most explosion off the snap.

Maybe because the 3-tech lines up right on top of the guard, meaning he doesn't have to handle 2 blockers?

Raji is quick for a man his size, but he doesn't keep guy's hands off him particularly great, which is pretty much key to being a good UT at the NFL level. I like Raji, just not for that position.

renegade
12-06-2008, 08:41 AM
John Henderson and Albert Haynesworth were both defensive tackles on the Tennesee line in college. Most of you probably already know that, but I just giggle at the thought of that much domination.

As for my opinion this class is pretty weak and some guys who normally wouldn't have a shot at round 1-2 might get there. But lets hope your team avoids them because the top of the class is really weak but the depth is great. My personal favorites are Vance Walker UT Georgia Tech (early 3rd round IMO) and Roy Miller DT Texas (4th-5th round IMO).

Mr. Stiller
12-06-2008, 09:35 AM
Maybe because the 3-tech lines up right on top of the guard, meaning he doesn't have to handle 2 blockers?

Raji is quick for a man his size, but he doesn't keep guy's hands off him particularly great, which is pretty much key to being a good UT at the NFL level. I like Raji, just not for that position.

Thats true but thats merely some technique work. Raji has a hell of a motor and a killer first step. I just don't see a DT position he could line up in and not succeed.

That said I think he'd be a monster NT for a T2 Team.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-06-2008, 10:51 AM
That said I think he'd be a monster NT for a T2 Team.

I agree. But you were talking about him being an undertackle, not a nose tackle.

CashmoneyDrew
12-06-2008, 01:00 PM
John Henderson and Albert Haynesworth were both defensive tackles on the Tennessee line in college. Most of you probably already know that, but I just giggle at the thought of that much domination.


And they choked away a national championship in the SEC championship game their final seasons. :(

Mr. Stiller
12-07-2008, 03:42 AM
I agree. But you were talking about him being an undertackle, not a nose tackle.

For a non-Tampa2 team I don't see the issue. He can clog the lanes, but he still has the ability get a passrush.

For a Tampa 2 team yes he'd likely be the NT, Non-Tampa2, he could probably be either.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-07-2008, 03:47 AM
For a non-Tampa2 team I don't see the issue. He can clog the lanes, but he still has the ability get a passrush.

For a Tampa 2 team yes he'd likely be the NT, Non-Tampa2, he could probably be either.

What exact difference do you think there is between the way a Tampa 2 uses its defensive tackles and any other 4-3 team?

Mr. Stiller
12-07-2008, 10:45 AM
What exact difference do you think there is between the way a Tampa 2 uses its defensive tackles and any other 4-3 team?

It's not the way they use their tackles. It's what they expect out of their tackles. Add to it what style of coverage they use.

An attacking team that plays a lot of man coverage and jam WR's at the LOS might use a guy like Raji as an UT because he's superior against the run compared to guys like Marks/Atkins. But he can still provide a decent pass rush, and with another guy next to him that can play nose and be more effective against the run, he should be ok.

Teams that predicate on zones, and need a quick pass rush as to stop the passer before the holes in those zones are exploited, they may be willing to give up the ability to stuff the run for added interior pressure, meanwhile a 4-3 team that isn't predicated on the Cover2 Philosophy or a Zone philosophy could sacrifice it a bit because they can slow the receivers off their routes.


Raji could really play both in my mind. He's not a pure passrusher a la Marks or Atkins... but he's no slouch, and he provides much more ability against the run.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-07-2008, 11:15 AM
There are certainly teams that tend to have lighter and heavier defensive tackle duos, but I find that most 4-3 teams, Cover 2 or not, tend to function on the same basic UT-NT principle.