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HellonEarth84
12-13-2008, 04:15 AM
Obviously this will change after Free Agency when new players are signed and old players sign with other teams. For now...

1 - OLB - An impact DE conversion is desperately needed. Vrabel is on his last legs and has looked terrible rushing the passer this year. Adalius Thomas is pretty old as well. Behind those two, the Pats only have undrafted free agents like Pierre Woods and Vince Redd, and an unfinished project in Shawn Crable who has not played at all this year. The Pats are getting killed on 3rd downs this year and are not applying any pressure at all on opposing QBs.

A smallish DE like George Selvie, Everette Brown, Larry English, or Clint Sintim (plays OLB in the 34 for Virgina) is what the Pats need. Vrabel has 1 more year left in him and a replacement needs to be groomed and ready to step in once he's gone.


2 - CB - Deltha ONeal is showing why he was cut by the Begals. Ellis Hobbs is decent but nothing special. His contract will be up soon anyways and I doubt he will re-sign. Terrence Wheatley looked decent in his limited playing time, but he has a long history of being injury prone, and got injured in the one and only game he saw significant time in this year. I have a bad feeling that Wheatley will never last a 16+ game season and will be a regular on the injury list. Wilhite is only a nickle/dime CB.

A cornerback in the early 2nd (with the Chargers pick) is a no-brainer. Alphonso Smith, Darius Butler, Mike Mickens.



2b - RB - Maroney is made out of glass. Sammy Morris has had injury problems as well. Lamont Jordan won't be re-signed. Kevin Faulk is great but he's getting up there in age and is only a 3DB to begin with. BJGE has looked decent but he's a 3rd stringer on most teams.

Look at the impact that guys like Forte, Slaton, Chris Johnson, Hightower, etc have had on their teams success this year. Picking up a RB late in Rd2 would give the Pats a legitimate running game and help protect Brady. Someone like Shonn Greene, Rashad Jennings, James Davis, who are reliable and durable backs to provide some stability to this injury riddled group in New England.


3 - SS - Meriweather is a FS and needs to be moved there. James Sanders is one of the worst starters on the Pats defense and at times I barely notice he's even on the field. Sanders is slow, bad in coverage, undersized. He's more of a back up and STer. A big SS like Kevin Ellison would be a nice pick up here.

4 - OG

5 - ILB - Worrell Williams - DJ's younger brother. Very stout and ideal size for the Pats ILB position. Could be a nice addition alongside Mayo. Has experience playing in the 34 this season in College. Bruschi will retire and the Pats are so desperate at LB that they brought Seau out of retirement... again. An infusion of youth is needed at LB. Worrell starts off on Special Teams and eventually starts over Gary Guyton, who lacks the bulk to play SILB.

6 - WR - NE already has 2 studs in Moss/Welker. Take a flyer here on a slot receiver with decent hands.

Bigburt63
12-13-2008, 02:45 PM
Obviously this will change after Free Agency when new players are signed and old players sign with other teams. For now...

1 - OLB - An impact DE conversion is desperately needed. Vrabel is on his last legs and has looked terrible rushing the passer this year. Adalius Thomas is pretty old as well. Behind those two, the Pats only have undrafted free agents like Pierre Woods and Vince Redd, and an unfinished project in Shawn Crable who has not played at all this year. The Pats are getting killed on 3rd downs this year and are not applying any pressure at all on opposing QBs.

A smallish DE like George Selvie, Everette Brown, Larry English, or Clint Sintim (plays OLB in the 34 for Virgina) is what the Pats need. Vrabel has 1 more year left in him and a replacement needs to be groomed and ready to step in once he's gone.


2 - CB - Deltha ONeal is showing why he was cut by the Begals. Ellis Hobbs is decent but nothing special. His contract will be up soon anyways and I doubt he will re-sign. Terrence Wheatley looked decent in his limited playing time, but he has a long history of being injury prone, and got injured in the one and only game he saw significant time in this year. I have a bad feeling that Wheatley will never last a 16+ game season and will be a regular on the injury list. Wilhite is only a nickle/dime CB.

A cornerback in the early 2nd (with the Chargers pick) is a no-brainer. Alphonso Smith, Darius Butler, Mike Mickens.



2b - RB - Maroney is made out of glass. Sammy Morris has had injury problems as well. Lamont Jordan won't be re-signed. Kevin Faulk is great but he's getting up there in age and is only a 3DB to begin with. BJGE has looked decent but he's a 3rd stringer on most teams.

Look at the impact that guys like Forte, Slaton, Chris Johnson, Hightower, etc have had on their teams success this year. Picking up a RB late in Rd2 would give the Pats a legitimate running game and help protect Brady. Someone like Shonn Greene, Rashad Jennings, James Davis, who are reliable and durable backs to provide some stability to this injury riddled group in New England.


3 - SS - Meriweather is a FS and needs to be moved there. James Sanders is one of the worst starters on the Pats defense and at times I barely notice he's even on the field. Sanders is slow, bad in coverage, undersized. He's more of a back up and STer. A big SS like Kevin Ellison would be a nice pick up here.

4 - OG

5 - ILB - Worrell Williams - DJ's younger brother. Very stout and ideal size for the Pats ILB position. Could be a nice addition alongside Mayo. Has experience playing in the 34 this season in College. Bruschi will retire and the Pats are so desperate at LB that they brought Seau out of retirement... again. An infusion of youth is needed at LB. Worrell starts off on Special Teams and eventually starts over Gary Guyton, who lacks the bulk to play SILB.

6 - WR - NE already has 2 studs in Moss/Welker. Take a flyer here on a slot receiver with decent hands.

I think that an inside linebacker or an outside linebacker is a need, but Crable looked good before he got hurt. Don't dismiss Guyton either...BB and the coaches are very high on him and he is very athletic. The more I see of Clint Stintim the more I like him and his fit into the system.

For corner, Hobbs is a good #2, Wheatley had worked himself into a starting role until he broke his wrist (not the wrist that had given him trouble in college). He and Wilhite are very, very fast and athletic and have looked good when they have been on the field. Plus, I think Hobbs signs here again as I don't know how much attention he would draw on the open market. I do agree that a corner is needed, I personally like Harris from Va Tech.

I doubt that a rookie RB could have a profound impact on this patriots team, seeing as our play call selection is overwhelmingly pass. More balance would be nice, but we are still a pass first team. I'd rather draft a TE over a WR, Watson has had a down year and Thomas has been invisible.

Don Vito
12-13-2008, 05:05 PM
I would like to see us take a DB with our first pick. We do need help at linebacker still but we have added some very talented young guys, they are just extremely raw and need to develop. We desperately need help in the secondary at both corner and safety, I would love to see us grab someone Alphonso Smith or William Moore in the first. Moore could play both safety spots like Meriweather which would make him even more valuable as well as making James Sanders a top notch backup/special teamer.

Hopefully Carble is ready to play next year because we need him. We are lacking a pass rush and it could really improve if Crable makes an impact with Adalius healthy. Vrabel has really slowed down but I don't think we take DE/OLB with in the first two rounds. I would love for us to take Brandon Spikes if he were available, I know Guyton has looked great but Spikes and Jerod would be an insane ILB tandem. Guyton can play outside as well which makes him so important. We have some young talent at LB, we just need them to develop and stay healthy.

I would rank our needs like this-

1. DB (corner or safety, we desperately need help at both. wheatley and wilhite have potential but we obviously have still have issues at corner. willie moore is one of my favorite prospects for us because he can play both spots and is a solid all around player with all of the tools to be a stud)

2. LB (again, we could go either ILB or DE/OLB, we still need to add some more youth)

3. OL (especially a RG or LT, maybe even a center, we have no depth)

4. RB (I still don't want to give up on Maroney but the injuries are out of control, BJGE has looked good but he is one dimensional, Faulk is getting old, Morris is good but he's always hurt, Jordan has looked OK but he is never on the field either. lots of backs but the bottom line is they are always hurt)

5. WR (Gaffney is OK but we really do need another young target since the ChadJackson experiment failed. Washington, Slater, and Aiken are mainly special teamers)

HellonEarth84
12-13-2008, 09:18 PM
William Moore isn't the prospect everyone thought he was last year. He's looked pretty bad at times this season. I wonder where his stock is at this point, but this is a pretty DEEP draft for Safeties. You can draft a decent prospect in the 3-4 rounds this year.

Also don't forget we have two 2nd rounders this year

Don Vito
12-14-2008, 01:32 AM
William Moore isn't the prospect everyone thought he was last year. He's looked pretty bad at times this season. I wonder where his stock is at this point, but this is a pretty DEEP draft for Safeties. You can draft a decent prospect in the 3-4 rounds this year.

Also don't forget we have two 2nd rounders this year

He really hasn't been healthy this season. Moore has a ton of potential and I think he would be a great fit in our defense. Moore, like Meriweather, can play both safety spots which would help us maximize his potential. When healthy Moore is solid against the run and a ballhawk in coverage, and the coverage aspect is something that James Sanders is not too strong in. Moore's injuries do scare me (the last thing we need is another injury prone defender) and we really need a corner, but I would be pumped if we drafted him.

As for other safeties, the next best guy for us is probably Rashad Johnson. Great cover guy who has all of the intangibles and is a ballhawk. Patrick Chung, Kevin Ellison, Mike Hamlin, Courtney Greene, and Nic Harris are all guys who I could see fitting in here as well.

HellonEarth84
12-14-2008, 02:03 AM
I doubt we go Safety in the first again. Sanders will most likely be re-signed and I believe Tank Williams is still signed but on the IR. Sign Sanders to a short term deal, and groom his replacement.

Kevin Ellison, Patrick Chung, Courtney Greene... I like those guys at SS in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.

Don Vito
12-14-2008, 02:46 PM
Tank was going to be more of a linebacker on passing downs/special teamer than a safety before he got hurt. He certainly has talent but he has been injury riddled throughout his whole career and that must be taking a toll on his body. Guys like Ellison, Chung, and Greene would be great pick ups but I still would be open to taking Willie Mo in the first.

Here are a couple of scenarios that could be nice fore us:

1. William Moore S Mizzou
2a. Macho Harris CB VT
2b. Larry English DE/LB NIU
3. Jonathan Luigs OL Arkansas

1. Brandon Spikes LB Florida
2a. Rashad Johnson FS Bama
2b. James Davis RB Clemson
3. Antwan Barnes CB Maryland

HellonEarth84
12-14-2008, 08:46 PM
Here are a couple of scenarios that could be nice fore us:

1. William Moore S Mizzou
2a. Macho Harris CB VT
2b. Larry English DE/LB NIU
3. Jonathan Luigs OL Arkansas

Macho Harris is best fit for the Tampa 2. Probably not a player who would fit our scheme.

I wouldn't bet on English lasting until the mid-late 2nd round. It's a weak draft for DE's and a lot of teams need a pass rusher (Buffalo, Green Bay, Cleveland, etc). Mayock listed his as one of the Top Players in his recent Top 20. Mayock is usually the most accurate (Kipers trash) and English will only improve his stock after the Senior Bowl and Combine.


1. Brandon Spikes LB Florida
2a. Rashad Johnson FS Bama
2b. James Davis RB Clemson
3. Antwan Barnes CB Maryland

Spikes would play the same position as Mayo. WILB. No use is spending another 1st rounder when we already have that position filled. Guyton has really impressed as well and offers starting potential. Bo Ruud was also drafted last year and could see some time at ILB. If we do go LB in the 1st rd, it will be an OLB/DE hybrid guy... not another ILB.

Rashad Johnson. Small FS. Much like Meriweather. Again, we already spent a recent pick at that position and won't use another one. If we do go Safety, look for a big physical SS. Kam Chancellor is another player to keep an eye on. 6'4 215 athletic, aggressive, early 2nd round grade on him right now.

James Davis - yes. I like that pick!

Antwan Barnes????? CB from Maryland?? Surely you meant Kevin Barnes. Whom I believe just had a season ending injury.

HellonEarth84
12-23-2008, 04:45 AM
Clint Sintim BTW is coached at Virginia in a 3-4 Defense by Al Groh. Former Patriots Linebacker coach. Scout.com had an insider article on Patriots Scouting the Virginia players. Al Groh has a very good relationship with Sintim and says praises him as a great OLB prospect. Groh has coached many great LB's FTR - Lawrence Taylor, Carl Banks, Willie McGinest, Andre Triplett, etc.

Bigburt63
12-23-2008, 08:47 AM
I like sintim alot, the more I see of him the more I envision him being in a patriots uniform. That beign said, I also really like Alphonso Smith from Wake, Moore from Mizzou, Harris from VaTech. I'm not sure if the pats go LB early in this draft. they normally don't, and did twice last year (Mayo, Crable), plus with Guyton who they seem to love and Redd who has alot of potential, im not sure they go LB early. BB loves to have experienced linebackers, and has on numeroud occasions talked about having a balance between youth and experience. My feeling is that the patriots grab a couple low profile FA's at LB and use them to infuse some youth with Mayo, Crable, Guyton, Redd, etc. Safety, TE, CB, even DE and OL depth, are more pressing needs IMO

HellonEarth84
12-24-2008, 03:16 AM
It really depends on how much faith BB has in Crable and Redd. Considering Crable was IR'd and Redd as on the PS, we can't really judge at this point.

I agree with your point on youth/experience. However, even if Crable can replace Vrabel (which is unknown at this point), don't forget that Adalius Thomas is also in his 30's and seems to have slowed down since his Bmore days. We still need another future OLB on the other side. I highly doubt Pierre Woods is capable of filling those shoes. Redd is unknown right now.

I will say one thing though - Sintim is the anti-Crable. Going into the draft, Crable was undersized, undeveloped, no true position, boom or bust pick, project player taken on potential.

Sintim has experience in the 3-4. Will play OLB in the NFL. Ideal height/weight. Developed by former Pats LB Coach Al Groh. Can step in and contribute earlier than a project like Crable. Far more NFL-ready than any other prospect in recent years (Gholston, Crable, Groves, Manny Lawson). More of a sure thing than a boom or bust. I wouldn't let that slip past me with a pick in the 20's and many questions marks with the current OLB situation.

HellonEarth84
12-25-2008, 05:22 AM
Connor Barwin is another OLB to look for.

Nalej
12-29-2008, 07:16 PM
-Pass Rushing OLB(adds depth as well- we won't have Seau and Colvin back)
-CB
-SS
-ILB
-RT
-CB
-WR

HellonEarth84
12-31-2008, 10:41 PM
-Pass Rushing OLB(adds depth as well- we won't have Seau and Colvin back)
-CB
-SS
-ILB
-RT
-CB
-WR

Agree. Maybe not in that order though. It depends what value is available at those draft spots.

The more I look into it, the more it looks like a quality OLB will be available at our 2nd Rd Chargers Pick. Depends on who rises and falls after Senior Bowl and Combine too.

AntoinCD
01-07-2009, 01:25 PM
I would rate the needs as

1. OLB-I like the look of Crable but don't think he will ever be the impact player that is required.

2. SS-Really liking the development of Merriweather but Sanders could do with being replaced.

3. CB-By no means should we take a first round CB unless Davis falls. Give the two rookies from last year more time with hopefully a pass rush. Maybe Mike Mickens in the late 2nd.

4. O-line depth-A third or fourth on someone like Loadholt if he's there.

5. ILB-I agree that Guyton should be given a chance at starting for the season but depth is worrying.

Bigburt63
01-07-2009, 01:37 PM
Wilhite began to impress me as the season progressed and he got more and more playing time, although he clearly has things to improve upon, who doesn't? Wheatley looked pretty good until he hurt his wrist. Personally, I think the patriots need some more LB depth, even with alot of the young guys that they have in there now (mayo, guyton, crable {dont sleep on vince redd yet either}) and some depth at CB is needed (Hobbs is a #2, not a #1, and I wouldn't be opposed to drafting a CB in the first round as guys seemingly get hurt every year, and we have little to no real depth at the position anyways). we need a versatile interior lineman (can play both guards, maybe center) for depth, and I like Kazcur but he could be upgraded in the middle rounds if someone falls in this deep class of tackles. and ILB could use a stud because Guyton is intriguing and has looked good at times, but we have no depth there almost at all

proshoota25
01-07-2009, 06:41 PM
im a huge fan of brandon spikes, and if he were available, i would love for the patriots to pick him up. spikes and mayo, along with guyton, would be an exciting and orgasmic tandem for the next few years!

Bradyjackson12
01-16-2009, 11:06 PM
The will probably be some more draft picks if Cassel is trade which is likely to happen and I didn't really consider OLB as a big need because I think injuries were the biggest reason to our difficulties this year. Adalius Thomas and Vrabel will be back healthy this year and they should have more impact but also Crable and Reed who will be first year player should help bring pressure to the opposite QB.

1st round:
#23 Vontae Davis CB Illinois
2nd Round:
#48 (SD) David Bruton S Notre Dame
#55 Jamon Meredith OT South Carolina
3rd Round:
#87 Rashad Jennings RB Liberty
#97 Kevin Barnes CB Maryland
4th Round:
#119 Shawn Nelson TE Southern Miss
5th Round:
#151 Ramses Barden WR Cal Poly
6th Round:
#183 Xavier Fulton OT Illinois
7th Round:
#215 Antonio Appleby ILB Virginia
Undrafted:
RFA Khalif Mitchell OT East Carolina
RFA Nic Harris S/LB hybrid Oklahoma
He could play the same hybrid position that Tank Williams was learning during last year pre-season.

Give me some feedback

HellonEarth84
01-17-2009, 03:05 AM
Vontae Davis is exactly the type of player that Belichick always stays away from.

proshoota25
01-17-2009, 12:48 PM
Vontae Davis is exactly the type of player that Belichick always stays away from.

thats what everyone was saying about brandon meriweather too when he came out of miami........ (cant spell his name correctly)

Bigburt63
01-17-2009, 01:58 PM
plus i doubt he falls to us anyways

Don Vito
01-17-2009, 04:57 PM
1st round:
#23 Vontae Davis CB Illinois
I really liked Vontae before this season and there is no doubt he has a ton of talent, but he is coming off of a poor junior season. That being said, he has the talent to be an elite shutdown corner in the NFL and that certainly is tempting. I don't know if BB takes a guy who struggled on the field so much in his last season but the ability is definitely there. I know we have Adalius coming back and a ton of young guys including Crable, but there will be a guy like Sintim available at the end of the first who could make a huge impact in our linebacking corps for years to come. There is much more depth at corner in this class whereas the group of pass rushers is kind of top heavy, I say we go for a guy like Sintim and focus on the secondary with our two second rounder.

2nd Round:
#48 (SD) David Bruton S Notre Dame
Good pick. Bruton is a very well-rounded and smart player who could be a great SS for us but also play free. Bruton would complement Meriweather very well and would push James Sanders to a backup/situational role where I believe he would excel.

#55 Jamon Meredith OT South Carolina
Meredith is a great fit for our line, but we haven't taken a linebacker yet which we would need to address. However I really like Meredith and he could project to a number of positions on the line; his athleticism, versatility, and youth would be very valuable.

3rd Round:
#87 Rashad Jennings RB Liberty
Not too sure about this pick. I love Jennings as a prospect, he has a very high ceiling and could be a great runner for some team, but we don't need another power back. If we take any RB we need a back who is a home run threat who can contribute as a runner, receiver, and even returner to be groomed as Faulk's replacement. I think Jennings could be a stud in the NFL in the mold of Michael Turner, but we simply don't need him. We have Morris, Jordan, Green-Ellis, and Evans to pound the rock.

#97 Kevin Barnes CB Maryland
Great pick. If Barnes falls to the third he will be a steal for some team, and I believe he very well could fall this far. Barnes has all of the tools to be a great NFL corner; he is big, fast, instinctive, and is a HUGE hitter. He can play man and zone and would be a great addition to our secondary. Not only can he cover but he is a physical corner who would make a formidable tandem with Vontae Davis.

4th Round:
#119 Shawn Nelson TE Southern Miss
Decent pick. Nelson is a TE/slot receiver type ala David Thomas, just with more size and ability. Nelson is very athletic and was very productive in college, and we could use another weapon in the passing game. I could see the staff falling in love with Nelson.

5th Round:
#151 Ramses Barden WR Cal Poly
This is wishful thinking to hope Barden falls this far, but if he did I would not oppose to us taking him. He is a huge target with great body control and athleticism, think Plaxico Burress without the issues. We generally don't look for huge receivers but I would not oppose to taking Barden.

6th Round:
#183 Xavier Fulton OT Illinois
OK pick. Fulton is a very athletic pass blocker but he isn't physical offers very little in the running game. We do need a blindside protector to learn behind Light and take over for him in a few years, but Fulton is still pretty raw. He would be in a great situation in New England since he could develop for a few years before starting. The kid has a ton of potential as a pass blocker and would be a pretty good fit for our offense if he could just get a little tougher in the run game.

7th Round:
#215 Antonio Appleby ILB Virginia
This is one of the best picks in your mock as far as value is conerned. Appelby is another huge and very athletic UVA linebacker and he is tailor made for our 3-4. He could be a super inside guy but he can also play outside if need be. I would absolutely love if we got Appelby in the fourth or fifth, let alone the seventh.

Undrafted:
RFA Khalif Mitchell OT East Carolina
RFA Nic Harris S/LB hybrid Oklahoma
It's kind of tough to project UDFA's, but I give you props for trying. I don't know much about Khalif Mitchell but based off of his triangle numbers he looks like a solid fit for our line, but you cannot evaluate offensive lineman on triangle numbers. Nic Harris is not going undrafted, he may be taken as early as the second round. I would love to get him and have him in that Tank Williams role as you said, though.

Overall, the secondary got upgraded in a big way. We certainly need some youth and talent in our secondary and if we added Davis, Bruton, and Barnes we would be in a good spot with Meriweather, Wheatley, Wilhite, and even Hobbs as other young guys who have a ton of potential. I agree with you that our pass rush will be muched improved with a healthy Adalius and Crable as well as having the young guys come back with another year of experience, but I think we still need a young guy who will be a gamechanger. Crable has that ability but we haven't seen enough of him yet, I would love Sintim in red and blue. You also got some OL help with Meredith and Fulton, two guys who are great fits for our line. I like how we got a few more talented receiving weapons as well, we need some young talent there. One thing I think we need is a developmental space eating NT because if Wilfork goes down we don't have another big guy. Mike Wright is more of a third down/high motor guy, he couldn't be an every down NT. This was a pretty solid mock overall, great effort too.

HellonEarth84
01-17-2009, 06:48 PM
thats what everyone was saying about brandon meriweather too when he came out of miami........ (cant spell his name correctly)

No. Meriweather was a Team Captain. Great leader on Miami. His problems were off the field, and also during a brawl that he did not cause.

Vontae Davis is a primadonna like his brother. His coaches benched him this year(that never happened to BWare). You can't even compare that to Meriweather.

proshoota25
01-17-2009, 06:53 PM
No. Meriweather was a Team Captain. Great leader on Miami. His problems were off the field, and also during a brawl that he did not cause.

Vontae Davis is a primadonna like his brother. His coaches benched him this year(that never happened to BWare). You can't even compare that to Meriweather.

I know he didnt start it, but the fact that he got a suspension for stomping on a guys face doesn't help his cause. He took ALOT of heat from the national media for it. You can't say that they were just off the field.

Don Vito
01-17-2009, 09:34 PM
I wanted us to take Meriweather so badly that year. I liked Michael Griffin and I thought Eric Weddle could be a decent pickup due to his versatility. but I really wanted Meriweather. I went nuts when they announced the selection, I couldn't believe it. He had some problems at Miami but has been a model citizen for us and is really developing into a hell of a player.

Our coaches have shown the ability to turn players with bad reputations or poor team attitudes into stars that don't cause problems (Dillon, Moss, Meriweather). What our staff has not done is turn great athletes who aren't tough, solid football player into stars. Vontae Davis does kind of have that reputation, but he has a ton of ability. If we drafted him I would be confident knowing the staff picked him because they can make him a stud, I just can't see us drafting him. There is no denying his ability though, just like his brother.

ElectricEye
01-17-2009, 09:54 PM
I really don't like Vontae Davis for us. Getting an absolutely elite talent at corner would be nice, but the problem is that Davis just doesn't have the work ethic to match the talent. He got beat by guys that had absolutely no business beating him this year. It's an interesting thought having a guy that talented here, but I would rather have us pass.

The rest is nice. Love the fact we get Bruton and Meridith. Love the Jennings pick, as we need someone to step up and be the guy in the running game and he fits out scheme very well. Getting Barnes is awesome too. LOVE the Antonio Appleby pick as well. He's a thumper that could compliment Mayo nicely.

AntoinCD
01-18-2009, 05:41 AM
I wanted us to take Meriweather so badly that year. I liked Michael Griffin and I thought Eric Weddle could be a decent pickup due to his versatility. but I really wanted Meriweather. I went nuts when they announced the selection, I couldn't believe it. He had some problems at Miami but has been a model citizen for us and is really developing into a hell of a player.

Yea my favourite three players in that draft where Michael, Griffen, Merriweather and Aaron Ross. Im glad we took Merriweather but gladly would have accepted either the other two if they were available.

As for the mock draft there, there are some nice picks but none addressing IMO the biggest need-OLB to rush the passer. Also the longer time goes the more I like Mike Mickens with either of the 2nds.

Bigburt63
01-19-2009, 01:51 PM
Meriweather was a surprise to some, but BB worked him out personally prior to the draft, and that is usually a sign that there is strong consideration in the organization to draft him. This will be a very interesting draft as it is the first without Pioli....this is a monumental draft in the development and progression of this franchise

Cronin
01-19-2009, 06:13 PM
Not bad picks at, but I guy I hope we pick up somewhere (3rd maybe?) is Jasper Brinkley from South Carolina :)

proshoota25
01-19-2009, 10:33 PM
i do like brinkley as well, i think he is vastly underrated

Bigburt63
01-20-2009, 10:56 AM
he seems like he'd be a great thumper at ILB

Bradyjackson12
01-20-2009, 12:52 PM
Brinkley might be a good fit but I thought that Appleby was a good pick because he played at MLB in college in a 3-4.

Bradyjackson12
01-20-2009, 01:03 PM
Yea my favourite three players in that draft where Michael, Griffen, Merriweather and Aaron Ross. Im glad we took Merriweather but gladly would have accepted either the other two if they were available.

As for the mock draft there, there are some nice picks but none addressing IMO the biggest need-OLB to rush the passer. Also the longer time goes the more I like Mike Mickens with either of the 2nds.

I simply don't see how you can consider OLB as our biggest need.
Vrabel played with an injury to his shoulder all year
Thomas was on IR but I admit he was not dominant before his injuries still he frequently put pressure early in the year.
Crable was on IR but he was showing a lot of promise during the pre-season.
Redd is an interesting projects who needed and still need development but he could really be a stud in that role. But he showed potential late in the year when he played.
Woods was showing good thins before he too was put on IR

Yeah I can accept that we could take an OLB during the draft but it is far far from our biggest need. The main reason why our defense was disappointing this year was the bad play of our DB. Hobbs and O'Neal are in the top 3 for TD passes concedes and we saw all year those 3rd and long being converted. (Jets game...)

Bradyjackson12
01-20-2009, 01:10 PM
If there are people who are interested in making their own mock draft for the Patriots, it would be interesting to discuss them in this thread. Also what do you think will happens with Math Cassel. I think he will get tag and then trade but still we don't know what is the health of Brady. Considering what the Chiefs received for Allen last year, I think that a first and a second or a first, a third and a late pick would be a good trade for us.

proshoota25
01-20-2009, 01:34 PM
my ideal patriots draft:

1. Aaron Maybin OLB Penn State
2. Patrick Chung S Oregon
2. Mike Mickens CB Cincy
3. Alex Boone OT Ohio State (if still available, which i doubt)

AntoinCD
01-20-2009, 03:49 PM
I simply don't see how you can consider OLB as our biggest need.
Vrabel played with an injury to his shoulder all year
Thomas was on IR but I admit he was not dominant before his injuries still he frequently put pressure early in the year.
Crable was on IR but he was showing a lot of promise during the pre-season.
Redd is an interesting projects who needed and still need development but he could really be a stud in that role. But he showed potential late in the year when he played.
Woods was showing good thins before he too was put on IR

Yeah I can accept that we could take an OLB during the draft but it is far far from our biggest need. The main reason why our defense was disappointing this year was the bad play of our DB. Hobbs and O'Neal are in the top 3 for TD passes concedes and we saw all year those 3rd and long being converted. (Jets game...)

Because Mike Vrabel will be 34 on opening day, AD will be 32 and if either one goes down again your left with Crable or Redd as a starter. I like Crable quite a lot and Redd come come good but I wouldn't be too confident with either starting all season yet. We had no pass rush at all last year and a pass rush helps out a corner. Besides Wheatley and Wilhite will have an extra year under them and they both have potential. Unless Vontae Davis slips or Alphonso Smith really has a good senior bowl/combine then I wouldn't touch a corner in the first. Not when we could take either Mike Mickens or Coyie Francies with either of our 2nd round picks.

Bigburt63
01-20-2009, 04:31 PM
Because Mike Vrabel will be 34 on opening day, AD will be 32 and if either one goes down again your left with Crable or Redd as a starter. I like Crable quite a lot and Redd come come good but I wouldn't be too confident with either starting all season yet. We had no pass rush at all last year and a pass rush helps out a corner. Besides Wheatley and Wilhite will have an extra year under them and they both have potential. Unless Vontae Davis slips or Alphonso Smith really has a good senior bowl/combine then I wouldn't touch a corner in the first. Not when we could take either Mike Mickens or Coyie Francies with either of our 2nd round picks.

For the most part i agree, but we could definitely use more help at corner. Hobbs, Wheatley, and Wilhite are not enough corners to have an impact. Could we use youth at LB, oh definitely, and I personally really like Sintim, and kind of like Maybin although he is very small and raw for OLB. If Alphonso Smith, or maybe DJ Moore, aren't there at the pick, then I would be ecstatic if the patriots took Sintim or Maybin, but I feel that Smith is too good a fit and a need to pass up. With the way our DB's get hurt year after year, we need a solid platoon, nevermind the fact that more and more teams are using 3 wr sets as their base offense. Personally, I would really like for a safety to be brought in, although I'm not sure Moore is the best fit, or that he will fall to us in a very weak safety class (at least at the top).

Looking at last years draft, as well as the current state of the team, I could see BB and company going OL or DL in the first. They seem to always draft along the front before it really beomes a need. Wilfork and Seymour have contracts ending soon, as do Mankins (if we dont re-sign him i will flip out), Neal, and Kazcur, and Light i believe. A guy like Tyson Jackson could be snared with our first 2nd to add valuable depth and a potential replacement for Seymour (I would hate to see him leave). With the crazy depth for OL in this draft, it wouldn't surprise me if someone fell into our laps that the coaching staff fell in love with. The unexpected have come to be the expected with patriots drafts.

HellonEarth84
01-26-2009, 02:11 PM
Why? Because Mankins, Kaczur, Hobbs, Wilfork, and Seymour are all FA's next year.

Of the big 3 - Seymour, Wilfork, and Mankins - Mankins is the easiest to replace. Seymour type players come around once every 10 years. Wilfork is a rare NT who would not be easily replaced and MUST be re-signed. Mankins is a Top 5-10 LG in the league. But really, good Guards are a dime a dozen. Mankins is still on his rookie contract and will be looking for a huge raise, ie. Steve Hutchinson/Alan Faneca type money?? We simply can't afford to keep him with our defense seemingly in it's rebuilding stages - wilfork and seymour take priority over Mankins.

BB being the genius he is, addresses this issue a year early, drafting Canfield or the next best OG available to play RG in 2009, and then take over for Mankins at LG in 2010.

Bigburt63
01-26-2009, 05:47 PM
you bite your tongue...the only difference is that seymour is much older than mankins is. I dunno how much it would cost for mankins, hopefully he would take a discount to stay in NE (oh god i hope so)

luckyjackaubrey
01-26-2009, 07:37 PM
I agree with the premise that guys like seymour come around once every 10 years. My problem is how many years has he BEEN here ? He may not have many (if any) "impact" seasons left in him. You may be resigning a guy on the back end of his career to a contract that handcuffs you going forward. BB is not known for making those kinds of mistakes. I trust BB is looking at all the points you listed, such as money available, and who is most easily replaced.

HellonEarth84
01-27-2009, 05:27 AM
Seymour should have atleast 3 good seasons in him. Dline tend to last well into their 30's. Look at Jamal Williams in San Diego and the Williams in Minnesota.

FlyingElvis
01-27-2009, 03:19 PM
But really, good Guards are a dime a dozen. Mankins is still on his rookie contract and will be looking for a huge raise, ie. Steve Hutchinson/Alan Faneca type money??
Shaun Alexander called, he begs to differ.

But Oline has to be considered in this draft. G or T spots b/c neither tackle on the roster will be worth the raise they will want when their respective contracts are up. Mankins . . . oh man I hope they figure out a way. I completely disagree with the qouted statement and would hate to see Logan beasting out for some other RBs.

I'm not sure what the priority will be. I think Mankins may take priority over Seymour b/c of age, but that depends on how much money each is looking for next year.

I will say this: I think LB and S are the top priorities, which means the Pats will probably go all O & D line with the day one picks. ;)

Bigburt63
01-27-2009, 06:57 PM
Honestly, I think we will draft some o-line help earlier than previosuly expected, but I don't think it is a round 1 need (unless someone fell somehow) or unless the staff fell in love with someone (see Logan Mankins). I still feel that CB is a bigger need than LB because outside of Hobbs, Wheatley, and Wilhite we have.....Richardson? A DB or 4 always get hurt every year. At LB we still have Thomas, Mayo, Vrable, Crable, Guyton, Redd (i know, i know, he's a project), and maybe Bruschi. Ya there is a hole at ILB and some depth on the outside could be used, but I feel like we could get a pretty good thumper at ILB later int he draft (Jasper Brinkley?). Safety is definitely a need, where Meriweather can play either free or strong, and Sanders is better suited for a backup/sub role. Problem there is that outside of maybe Moore (which is still probably somewhat of a reach) there are really no first round safeties to draft, leaving it as more of a round 2-3 choice. Ideally, we pick up at least a first from say...Minnesota, and can pick up a need (CB or LB, maybe S) and then possibly an OL/DL with the other (DL if they feel someone there fits.

Edit: Also, keep in mind that we have a recent history of getting our o-lineman later in the draft/outside of the draft. Only Mankins (1st) and Light (2nd) are high draft picks. Koppen (5th), Neal (UDFA), Kazcur (4th), in addition to Hichstein (FA, but 5th round by TB), O'Callaghan (5th) are all later draft picks.

HellonEarth84
01-28-2009, 12:05 AM
Patrick Chung (SS, Oregon) could possibly be a 1st rd pick.

Mr. Stiller
01-28-2009, 12:23 AM
Just to throw this out... Canfield has 30-31" arms.

Baby T-rex.

proshoota25
01-28-2009, 09:46 PM
i wouldnt mind jason watkins in the 3rd round for depth and the eventual successor to matt light

HellonEarth84
01-31-2009, 12:20 AM
1st) OLB - Larry English
2nd) SS- Patrick Chung


or


1st) CB - Alphonso Smith
2nd) OLB/ILB/TE - Conner Barwin






Personally I like the first option better. Because CB depth is always good and BB knows how to pick them in the later rounds. Someone like Joe Burnett (UCF) or Bruce Johnson (Miami) in the 3rd-4th round seems like the typical Belichick pick. Scout.com has an article on the Pats scouting both of them already, saying they fit the Patriot CB mold. Also as much upside as Barwin has, he's ultimately a project at whatever position they put him at. English is solid all around and possibly the best pure rusher after Everette Brown in this years draft. Patrick Chung is the best SS this year who can play in the box AND cover TE's.

Babylon
01-31-2009, 01:48 PM
Need to see what Barwin can do at the combine, if he measures at 6-4 and 250+ and runs a 4.6 then you're talking 2 guys with 1st round numbers in him and Alphonso Smith.

Bradyjackson12
01-31-2009, 05:11 PM
I think it could be interesting to see others mocks for the Pats, just explains why those picks would work well. I'll post one soon considering how the senior did at the senior bowl.

Trade in the mock are welcome, just explain why for both team and try to limit yourself to one to stay reasonable.

looking forward to discuss other's opinions.

proshoota25
01-31-2009, 06:57 PM
yea i like option 2 muchhhhh better

HellonEarth84
02-01-2009, 08:50 AM
Barwin is overhyped due to the Vrabel comparisions. I watched the Cinci vs VTech game and was not impressed at all with Barwin. Just because he played TE and DE people automatically think he's Vrabel minus 15 years. Simply not true. Vrabel was a beast DE in College. Barwin was/is a project who only played one year at DE. Yes, he has potential and a huge ceiling. But he also has the potential to be a one year wonder without any consistency.

English is the complete opposite. A contributer his entire time in College. Putting up consistent numbers, always being the stand out on defense. 2 time MAC player of the year. Solid showing at the Senior Bowl.

Matthew Jones
02-01-2009, 01:04 PM
Option two.

Matthew Jones
02-01-2009, 01:09 PM
thats what everyone was saying about brandon meriweather too when he came out of miami........ (cant spell his name correctly)

I actually called the Meriweather pick, the Maroney pick, and had Mankins in round two, which is pretty neat. I was off on Mayo (I thought it'd be Keith Rivers), but other than that I feel like I have somewhat of a feel for the Patriots' drafting habits and there's no way I could see Vontae Davis. This guy is just a straight-up bum, I can't see anything besides potential that makes him appealing, and most every first round pick in the NFL has Pro Bowl potential at some point.

AntoinCD
02-01-2009, 02:26 PM
2 definitely. I don't know about Larry English in the first and he won't be there by the second so he's probably not the choice. I like Chung but coupled with English i'd say no. Alphonso Smith will be a good player for good time and Barwin has about as much upside as anyone but is the definition of boom or bust. But overall the ability of Smith outweighs the choices of English and Chung alone and then theres the possibility of Barwin being a flat out stud.

HellonEarth84
02-01-2009, 02:35 PM
Patrick Chung is being severely under-rated. He's probably the best SS in this draft. I don't think he'll turn out to be an amazing game breaking type of player like Polamalu or Ed Reed, but he will be a solid safety like Chris Hope from Tennesse. Homerism also blurs a lot of fans opinion of James Sanders. I think he's easily the worst player on our defense and needs to be upgraded.

With Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite, Richardson, and a sure fire veteran CB in free agency... do we really go that route so early? Especially with success BB has had in taking CB's in the later rounds.

ElectricEye
02-05-2009, 12:22 AM
So we're talking ideal drafts huh? Or at least we were. I don't check here much, regrettably.

1st, #23 Alphonso Smith
I've kinda come down off the Sintim seat. He looked pretty unspectacular at the Senior Bowl. Didn't fulfill my expectations I had for him at all. Smith has spectacular ball skills. It would be nice to have a guy who can put up 5+ picks a year and take some to the house again.

2, #48 Larry English
Probably isn't happening, but there's a good chance that either he or Sintim fall this far. We've talked about needing a pass rusher, and English fits that mold. True tweener who should be excellent at getting to opposing quarterbacks. A little bit of help in free agency at this position wouldn't hurt either.

2, #55 Phil Loadholt/Jamon Meredith
Right tackle is an underrated need for us. Nick Kaczur kinda...well, he kind of sucks. Someone to sure up the right side of our line would be really nice. Either of those two could do it as well. Loadholt would really give our running game a boost.

3, #84 Chip Vaughn
Completely underrated guy who I'm pretty damned sure could fill the SS role quite nicely. If he isn't there, Cook is a guy I'm really excited about as well. Seems to be a bit of an idiot, but he's talented as physical. Hamlin and Greene would be nice too, although we could probably pick them up later. Pretty good draft to be looking for a SS.

3, #97 Jasper Brinkley
Might as well grab a thumper. Ours are aging a bit. Brinkley is flying under the radar a bit. I think he needs to stop himself from getting too big, but if he can control his weight a bit I think he could be a major asset in holding up against the run.

4, #119 Andre Brown
Might not last this long, but he seems to be cut from the Sammy Morris type mold that can be wicked effective for us. Doesn't hurt that he probably has the talent to go two or three rounds higher either.

5, #151 Captain Munnerlyn
A guy who really should have stayed in school. Gives us good depth with the potential to start down the line if things come together right. Probably won't be here, but it's a possibility. People aren't real high on him.

6, #183 Anthony Hill
Having a dominant blocker at tight end never hurts. Could really give a bit of a boost to our run game. Richard Quinn would be another guy to keep an eye on if he was there.

7, #215 Jaison Williams
He's big and he's fast...that's pretty much all that's too him. But it's a 7th rounder. What does it matter? Might as well pickup a bit of talent.


Yes, I realize this is a pipe dream.

ElectricEye
02-05-2009, 12:24 AM
I don't want to touch Barwin. He's interesting to think about, but he's also really raw. Eh, I suppose he could be good for us...but I would rather get a more proven pass rusher who has played the position for a bit longer.

AntoinCD
02-05-2009, 11:45 AM
I don't want to touch Barwin. He's interesting to think about, but he's also really raw. Eh, I suppose he could be good for us...but I would rather get a more proven pass rusher who has played the position for a bit longer.

I agree with the sentiments but is there going to be a proven pass rusher with that sort of upside at the end of the second. I think it would be worth the 2nd 2nd rounder and let him learn the position for a while.

AntoinCD
02-05-2009, 12:47 PM
1. Alphonso Smtih-Officially i'm on the bandwagon here as I don't think we get a real quality OLB in the first to warrant us passing on Smith.

2. Louis Delmas/Patrick Chung-Hopefully one of them will be here. I would prefer Delmas but its likely he'll be a late first/early second guy.

2b. Connor Barwin-Boom/bust pick here but I think his upside is too high to pass on. With AD, Vrabel and Crable he won't need to be rushed and can learn the position.

3. Mike Mickens-I think his stock will go way down with his injury and his slight frame. Real good steal here.

Not too sure of things will shape up after that but OT depth and ILB depth should be added

Don Vito
02-05-2009, 01:44 PM
I'm not too high on Barwin. He has a lot of potential but he didn't look like anything special whenever I saw him play, but he definitely looks the part of a Patriot. If we got Smith, Delmas/Chung, and Mickens I would be thrilled.

Bradyjackson12
02-05-2009, 08:30 PM
I don't have an opinion on this subject yet but what if MIchael Johnson falls in the range of our 1st our 2nd pick in round 2. I haven't seen him play that much this year and I know he isn't a high-motor guy but if he can show some agility and ability to play linebacker, he may be worth a look.
As I said, this is more of a question since I haven't seen him play and doesn't really have an opinion on him. If he falls all the way to the middle of round 2, maybe the potential is high enough to take a gamble

ElectricEye
02-05-2009, 09:26 PM
Johnson project terribly to OLB in a 3-4. Wouldn't fit at all. He's not the type of guy you look for at the position. Too big. Plus he sucks. Almost anyone who has seen him play will tell you that. Good workout numbers and potential aren't worth the headache with poor technique and lack of effort.

HellonEarth84
02-08-2009, 12:59 AM
I think Barwin's one of those guys that will take a while to find his niche in the NFL. Probably will sit in the bench for 3 or 4 years and then have a breakout season. Definitely a project where ever he ends up.

Larry English is an undersized DE who should be able to translate to OLB in the 3-4. He won't wow scouts at the combine with his athleticism, but neither did Woodley.

Bostonsportlova
02-08-2009, 05:19 PM
I perfer the second combination because Smith is an excellent cornerback that would fit well and needed. Barwin can play a multiple postions and help the team anyway possible which is covented by Bill

ElectricEye
02-08-2009, 09:12 PM
I'm not so sure about Barwin being able to play multiple positions. Yeah, he can play tight end. Does that make him Vrabel? Not yet. Wouldn't mind if we got him, but I don't want to spend one of our second rounders on a guy that won't help for a bit.

HellonEarth84
02-09-2009, 02:42 AM
2 definitely. I don't know about Larry English in the first and he won't be there by the second so he's probably not the choice.

Why not English in the 1st? He's probably the best DE to OLB conversion in this years draft.

Orakpo and Everette Brown both look like pure DE's to me. Sintim and Cushing both seem like cocky primadonnas. Cushing looks more like a ILB in a 3-4 and Sintim is overhyped because he has experience in the 3-4, which means very little considering every 3-4 OLB played DE in College. English is a blue collar OLB prototype. 6'2 255lbs on the Right side with Crable adding weight to take on the left side in the future.

The only reason people question his 1st round status is because he went to NIU, but alot of great pass rushers have come from small schools (DeMarcus Ware, Osi Umenyora, James Harrison) and I think English could be the next great rusher in that same mold.

hannah73
02-09-2009, 10:36 AM
Barwin is the flavor of the day apparently. Who says he's even a first day pick?

He played TE and got ten sacks in the very weak Big East. So what. Guys like that are a dime a dozen.

What about Crable? He had like 15 sacks in the Big Ten. Huge TFL numbers.

What about Redd, Robertson, Woods? Just draft another guy and throw him in there w/o any guarantee he'll be any better than the aforementioned?

I think they're interested, or should be in

Brandon Pettigrew (very important to get someone who can catch from the TE) - 1st

Percy Harvin, would be a great H back out of the backfiled - 1st / 2nd

Alphonso Smith, like Hobbs only a lot better 1st / 2nd

Sean Smith 2nd

Alex Mack, could play guard or center and is probably already better than Koppen 2nd

Ayers, could play elephant role (Vrabel's) or 3-4 DE or possibly ILB 3rd/4th

Mitch King, like Klecko only with 6 more inches and more mobile could convert to ILB. 5th

Julius Byrd CB with great ball skills 4th/5th

A safety would be nice, don't know if any out of college would have the intelligence to play the position...however Alphonso Smith probably could, he has the size, tackling ability and ball skills.

Demonte Bolden DT - good size for 3-4 DE, very strong. latter rounds.

Bear Pascoe / Ryan Purvis latter round TE if Pettigrew isn't taken.

nepg
02-09-2009, 11:19 PM
Ya, big eww @ Johnson in the first round...nevermind in the Patriots' 3-4. There are tons of better options out there for that.

For the OP:
I like Vontae Davis, but I doubt he'll be there. He's really the only CB I could see them taking in the first round.

Jennings is a huge reach in the 4th for a team whose RB depth chart is set.

Shawn Nelson is highly doubtful to be available in the 4th round - he's looking like a 2nd round pick (with many projecting him as a 1st rounder).

Way too much invested in offensive tackles... The Pats might upgrade the RT spot, but it's more likely to come from within (O'Callaghan/Britt).

I like Bruton, but he might be had later.

I like Barden, but the Pats need to invest in a more proven WR earlier in the draft. I'd like to see one taken in their first 3 picks.

And I know a lot of people have the Pats taking Alphonso Smith at #23, but I just don't see him as the type of CB the Pats would use a first on. If the Pats had the #23 pick last year, I could see them doing whatever it took to get DRC, Jenkins, Talib, or McKelvin... But you just don't have those elite physical-athletic freaks that were highly talented and productive in this draft (there are still a ton of good ones). The Pats got guys fitting Smith's profile in the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th (Samuel, Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite) rounds in recent drafts... Why would they use a first round pick on him? Does not compute.

Honestly, if William Moore either isn't there or turns out to be a total slob, and Rey Maualuga doesn't fall off the face of the Earth (i.e. down to #23), I think I'd probably prefer the Pats to take one of the WRs at #23... DHB, Nicks, Britt...I'd be happy with any of those 3 bigger, outside threats.
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ElectricEye
02-10-2009, 12:33 AM
Honestly, if William Moore either isn't there or turns out to be a total slob, and Rey Maualuga doesn't fall off the face of the Earth (i.e. down to #23), I think I'd probably prefer the Pats to take one of the WRs at #23... DHB, Nicks, Britt...I'd be happy with any of those 3 bigger, outside threats.

I think we need to find a number 2 receiver with potential, but I don't think this is the year for it. If one of those guys falls to the second, especially Britt or DHB, I wouldn't mind it...but assuming Brady is healthy we're a few holes away from being in the mix for a title.

Bradyjackson12
02-10-2009, 11:52 AM
Ya, big eww @ Johnson in the first round...nevermind in the Patriots' 3-4. There are tons of better options out there for that.

For the OP:
I like Vontae Davis, but I doubt he'll be there. He's really the only CB I could see them taking in the first round.

Jennings is a huge reach in the 4th for a team whose RB depth chart is set.

Shawn Nelson is highly doubtful to be available in the 4th round - he's looking like a 2nd round pick (with many projecting him as a 1st rounder).

Way too much invested in offensive tackles... The Pats might upgrade the RT spot, but it's more likely to come from within (O'Callaghan/Britt).

I like Bruton, but he might be had later.

I like Barden, but the Pats need to invest in a more proven WR earlier in the draft. I'd like to see one taken in their first 3 picks.

And I know a lot of people have the Pats taking Alphonso Smith at #23, but I just don't see him as the type of CB the Pats would use a first on. If the Pats had the #23 pick last year, I could see them doing whatever it took to get DRC, Jenkins, Talib, or McKelvin... But you just don't have those elite physical-athletic freaks that were highly talented and productive in this draft (there are still a ton of good ones). The Pats got guys fitting Smith's profile in the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th (Samuel, Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite) rounds in recent drafts... Why would they use a first round pick on him? Does not compute.

Honestly, if William Moore either isn't there or turns out to be a total slob, and Rey Maualuga doesn't fall off the face of the Earth (i.e. down to #23), I think I'd probably prefer the Pats to take one of the WRs at #23... DHB, Nicks, Britt...I'd be happy with any of those 3 bigger, outside threats.

I agree a couple of things you said, but I think you didn't consider everything before commenting on our RB, OL and WR depth.
First, Maroney and Morris are both injury prone as is Jordan and we're not even sure to resign Jordan. Jennings would give us a good young option in the short yardage situation. As for the OL, remember how we got destroyed against teams like Pittsburgh. Our left side do a good job but the right side could really be upgraded. Neal is always injured and the bad play from our right tackle prevent us from running on this side. Also if you've seen play O'Callaghan, you would realize that he doesn't have what it takes to be a dominant T, he's way too slow on his feet and does not get good leverage to use his strength. Britt is a good backup but he's not much more than that. Concerning WR, I don't think we should look earlier than the third for this position as we clearly have more pressing needs.

As a side note, I did this mock before the senior bowl. Nelson is clearly not falling further than early third round.

nepg
02-10-2009, 08:13 PM
First, Maroney and Morris are both injury prone as is Jordan and we're not even sure to resign Jordan. Jennings would give us a good young option in the short yardage situation.

Aside from Morris and Maroney, they've got Faulk, Evans, and BenJarvis Green-Ellis. Jordan is unlikely to be back with the Pats. Doesn't make sense to draft a guy earlier than the 6th round when you've got 4-5 locks on the depth chart.

As for the OL, remember how we got destroyed against teams like Pittsburgh. Our left side do a good job but the right side could really be upgraded. Neal is always injured and the bad play from our right tackle prevent us from running on this side. Also if you've seen play O'Callaghan, you would realize that he doesn't have what it takes to be a dominant T, he's way too slow on his feet and does not get good leverage to use his strength. Britt is a good backup but he's not much more than that.

Pittsburgh did well because Casey Hampton dominates Dan Koppen. Personally, I know Koppen's overrated a bit, but I don't see anyone calling for him to be replaced because he does so many other things. There were a lot of things wrong in the Pittsburgh game, and I really don't think the OL was even close to the beginning of the problem there (special teams and turn overs)...

The OL played very well as they got healthier. Billy Yates could use replacing, and O'Callaghan maybe could be replaced as well (though he was looking pretty good as someone who might be able to play either T or G). Wesley Britt is a bit underrated, and I'm surprised he's not starting somewhere right now.

Point is, it's going to take a lot higher pick to find someone that will make the roster, nevermind unseat Nick Kaczur at RT (#23) or Stephen Neal at RG... I do like Jamon Meredith a lot though.

Concerning WR, I don't think we should look earlier than the third for this position as we clearly have more pressing needs.

I definitely disagree here... The lack of a real threat outside of Moss and Welker shut down a large portion of the Patriots' offense, and kept Gaffney from doing what he does when teams expend energy on defending 3 other guys. They need someone on the sideline opposite Moss to pull corners and safeties away from the play (or blow by them if they "don't bite").
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ElectricEye
02-10-2009, 09:28 PM
I definitely disagree here... The lack of a real threat outside of Moss and Welker shut down a large portion of the Patriots' offense, and kept Gaffney from doing what he does when teams expend energy on defending 3 other guys. They need someone on the sideline opposite Moss to pull corners and safeties away from the play (or blow by them if they "don't bite").

I'm in the same boat with you about the lack of a threat outside of Moss and Welker, but the value wouldn't be there at all if you weigh it against our needs at other positions. Moss and Welker will get loose next year if Brady is healthy. Our entire offense gets better with him under center. I wouldn't call Gaffney didn't exactly wow last year like he did in the playoffs, but Cassel wasn't exactly as adept as Brady is at getting everyone involved in the offense. Picking up a guy in the third or fourth round to develop would be ideal, IMO.

nepg
02-11-2009, 08:31 AM
In the first round, unless a guy like Maualuga falls, they should go either WR (Maclin, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Percy Harvin) or OL (Duke Robinson, Jason Smith, Ebon Britton)... Those are going to be the BPA's anyway. I really like the idea of William Moore in the first, but I'd be really happy with a Victor Harris/Darius Butler & Patrick Chung/Michael Hamlin combo in the 2nd round...

As I've said, if they don't use #23 to take an OL, it's fairly pointless to take one at all until a bit later... So I'd say the first two rounds being...

23. Darrius Heyward-Bey
48. Victor "Macho" Harris
57. Patrick Chung

...would be ace.

The drop-off in WR talent from the first and second round to later is huge. Not so with CBs...the CB class is pretty deep with guys that are on the same level.
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FlyingElvis
02-11-2009, 10:35 AM
But we're really 2 years away from even needing a WR. There's barely enough balls for Moss & Welker, and the O has had success with just about any guy plugged in to the "#2" spot outside.

I would prefer moves that land us the T & S we need now and long term. WR can wait a year or 2, or possible be addressed in FA (Ocho would look good in blue)

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 11:18 AM
But we're really 2 years away from even needing a WR. There's barely enough balls for Moss & Welker, and the O has had success with just about any guy plugged in to the "#2" spot outside.

I would prefer moves that land us the T & S we need now and long term. WR can wait a year or 2, or possible be addressed in FA (Ocho would look good in blue)

If we're throwing out free agents, how about Torry Holt? Perfect stop gap solution.


....it would never happen though. Personally, I don't want to deal with Chad Johnson. I didn't think Randy Moss would workout either, but still, Johnson has been acting like a real girl the past few years and has a bigger mouth than Randy ever had. I'm pretty sure he said something about wanting to play here and the price is probably one we could afford to pay(one of our seconds might do the trick) but it's just too much of a headache. Don't think it has any legs anyway. We have to be careful at this point too. Can't bring in too many guys like that. Can't get too old.

I just don't see wide receiver as that big of a need. There ARE a few guys out there in free agency if Belichick it's really that big of a need...but we don't need to use a first on a receiver. No need to. Much better to fill a hole at corner or pickup a pass rusher at OLB than to take a luxury pick on DHB or Harvin(Maclin will be looooooong gone). I wouldn't even take a wide receiver until around the 4th. Picking up a right tackle and a safety in addition to the OLB/Corner need would be good. Then, maybe I would take a Brandon Tate or Demetrius Byrd type. Ramses Barden wouldn't be bad in the third either if he's there.

hannah73
02-11-2009, 11:20 AM
That's who I think they need. A real TE, instead of an athlete who has cement hands and fights the ball.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 11:31 AM
Over a safety, corner, or a pass rusher? No thanks. If really felt we needed a blocking tight end, we would have kept Daniel Graham around, who Pettigrew compares to. I agree that Watson is a pretty garbage player(in a frustrating way) and a waste of talent, but he isn't bad enough for us to need to draft a tight end in the first round. Besides, we kinda found ways around throwing to tight ends in our offense. Welker basically does the same thing an elite tight end would do for us in the receiving game, except on the goaline.

It wouldn't be a bad move to take a guy in the third round, but not anywhere near before it. If Jermaine Gresham was in the draft, maybe it would be different...but he isn't. Jared Cook might be a good guy to take a look at if he were to fall. If not, we can basically get the same caliber of blocker at tight end as Pettigrew in Anthony Hill in the 4th or 5th round.

hannah73
02-11-2009, 11:45 AM
Over a safety, corner, or a pass rusher? No thanks. If really felt we needed a blocking tight end, we would have kept Daniel Graham around, who Pettigrew compares to. I agree that Watson is a pretty garbage player(in a frustrating way) and a waste of talent, but he isn't bad enough for us to need to draft a tight end in the first round. Besides, we kinda found ways around throwing to tight ends in our offense. Welker basically does the same thing an elite tight end would do for us in the receiving game, except on the goaline.

It wouldn't be a bad move to take a guy in the third round, but not anywhere near before it. If Jermaine Gresham was in the draft, maybe it would be different...but he isn't. Jared Cook might be a good guy to take a look at if he were to fall. If not, we can basically get the same caliber of blocker at tight end as Pettigrew in Anthony Hill in the 4th or 5th round.

Whiskey bottles...brand new cars...

Anyway, Anthony Hill can't catch. Pettigrew is a great athlete, phenomenal blocker and good pass catching TE. Most complete TE in years, they say.

I think he's more a sure thing than some random safety, pass rusher (they ahve like 4 in Woods, Crable, Redd, Robertson that need to be given a chance), etc.

I could see them drafting Alex Mack too, as Koppen basically sucks at blocking bigger linemen. He could also play guard.

Crickett
02-11-2009, 12:04 PM
That's who I think they need. A real TE, instead of an athlete who has cement hands and fights the ball.

I would love to see the Patriots draft a TE in the first round A-G-A-I-N.

And I am a Jets fan. That is all.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 01:14 PM
Whiskey bottles...brand new cars...

Anyway, Anthony Hill can't catch. Pettigrew is a great athlete, phenomenal blocker and good pass catching TE. Most complete TE in years, they say.

I think he's more a sure thing than some random safety, pass rusher (they ahve like 4 in Woods, Crable, Redd, Robertson that need to be given a chance), etc.

I could see them drafting Alex Mack too, as Koppen basically sucks at blocking bigger linemen. He could also play guard.

I'll take a quick fix for a problem we actually have over one that doesn't exist at the moment any day.

Anthony Hill might not be able to catch, but Pettigrew certainly isn't Tony Gonzalez either. He's not going to stretch defenses or even be an impact player in the passing game. He would put up comparable numbers to Watson, albeit with much better blocking.

As far as drafting some "random" safety goes, it wouldn't be a good move in the first round. There's no value there for it. However in the second round there's guys like Delmas and William Moore to keep an eye on. Both of them could step in and instantly solve the SS problem(although I'm weary of Moore). We do have good depth as far as pass rushing linebackers go, but we would be lucky to have one of those guys pan out and even that is being generous. Besides, despite having all those guys, they did absolutely dick last year. After AT went down, our pass rush was pathetic. A real impact, 8 sack a year guy could really lift us up on only next year, but in the future as well.

Alex Mack wouldn't be the worst pick in the world, but it would be a waste of a first rounder. Koppen isn't the best center in the world and is probably more than a little overrated, but he's good for the team and he he's more than a tick above average as a starter. The right side of our line leaves something to be desired with Neal's injury issues and getting up there in age, but right tackle is the big need at the moment, not right guard. I would rather get a Meredith/Loadholt type rather than Mack if we were to draft an offensive linemen.

nepg
02-11-2009, 01:25 PM
I like Pettigrew, and he's a possibility... But there are a lot of good TE's in this draft.
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TheBuffaloBills
02-11-2009, 01:27 PM
Prediction: Pettigrew falls to the second round. I think he will come in at the combine, overweight and will run a 4.9 forty.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 01:31 PM
Prediction: Pettigrew falls to the second round. I think he will come in at the combine, overweight and will run a 4.9 forty.

I don't think he'll come in overweight. No reason for him to try to bulk up. He's got a really good body for a tight end(har har har). He's already so damn good as a blocker because of his length and quick feet that he's got no reason to think weight would help him. 4.9 is a bit of a stretch as well. High 4.7's-to mid 4.8's wouldn't be out of the question either.

I don't see him doing much as a receiver at all in the NFL. Too limited from a speed perspective. I also really don't like the fact he assaulted a cop. That's a dirtbag move, no matter what you say. I would really like to avoid that kind of crap on our team. Luckily, he'll probably go before #23 so it won't even be an issue.

nepg
02-11-2009, 01:58 PM
I don't think it's a luxury pick to make a vast improvement on your capabilities on offense by drafting a guy like DHB. Once Crabtree, Maclin, and DHB are gone, it's really tough to decipher who the real talent is at WR. Once Kenny Britt's gone (middle of the 2nd round), it's pretty pointless from that point on. The Pats really work best when Gaffney is their 4th guy. Unless they're going to start using Kelley Washington, they need to add someone here.

The talent level at CB is the same from the bottom third of the first round to the middle of the 4th, maybe into the 5th. A ton of parity there - many shades of gray. Outside of Jenkins, Davis, or Moore, I don't see anyone definitely pushing Wilhite or Wheatley down on the depth chart.

I see safety as the biggest need for this team, but if you want to start throwing around free agents, this becomes the most confusing position...

I'd love to see Jim Leonhard and Gerald Sensabaugh on the Pats... Those are two relatively inexpensive, proven, young-ish safeties that fill the needs the Pats have at the position.

There are a few UFA CBs that I like, but I don't see any as real starters: Foxworth, McFadden, Paymah... Big upgrades.

At WR and OT, I really don't see the anything that makes sense for the Pats. Maybe Reggie Williams, Michael Clayton, or Bryant Johnson... But nothing as far as OT's go.

As far as LB's go, the Pats were so injured last year, it's tough to really tell what the need is there. They do need a young ILB, but both Thomas and Vrabel are pretty solid ILB's when they move over. At OLB, they have Woods, Vrabel, and Thomas to go along with Crable (who looked good prior to getting injured and might be able to rotate inside) and Vince Redd (physical/athletic freak)... Gary Guyton should be good for depth... I think they'd have to find a real stud to draft someone...maybe if Maualuga or Cushing falls to #23, slight possibility for Sintim at #48 (though I've given up on them drafting UVA guys). So I really think they'll just pick up another vet FA to fill in where needed at LB...

The Pats have ~$21m in cap space, but have a number of free agents and need to get Seymour and Wilfork extended.

So when you break down the free agents and cap space, it looks like they might have to grab a RT with #23 (J. Smith, Britton or Loadholt) if they really want to upgrade the position. I still think they need to go WR early though (Britt/Nicks at #48?)...
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ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 02:47 PM
I don't think it's a luxury pick to make a vast improvement on your capabilities on offense by drafting a guy like DHB. Once Crabtree, Maclin, and DHB are gone, it's really tough to decipher who the real talent is at WR. Once Kenny Britt's gone (middle of the 2nd round), it's pretty pointless from that point on. The Pats really work best when Gaffney is their 4th guy. Unless they're going to start using Kelley Washington, they need to add someone here.
I agree that it could improve our offense some, but it's still not a direct need. We have two extremely capable receivers in Welker and Moss and the rest of the supporting cast is well above average. I just really think there's bigger needs for us right now and going forward than receiver. It would be nice to have Donte Stallworth back, but we're fine without him or a true #2.

The talent level at CB is the same from the bottom third of the first round to the middle of the 4th, maybe into the 5th. A ton of parity there - many shades of gray. Outside of Jenkins, Davis, or Moore, I don't see anyone definitely pushing Wilhite or Wheatley down on the depth chart.
Alphonso Smith is probably a better corner than both Davis and Moore and all three of those guys have a chance to be there when we pick at 23. I would strongly disagree that the talent level is equal from the late first onward at corner. There's a major dropoff after the the second round type guys. Francies, Smith, Butler, Harris, and Mickens are all legit second round possibilities. In a lot of the mocks out there, there's a run on corners starting in the late first. A few of them might slip into the 3rd and while that would be a real good value....do we really want to take that chance? Personally, I'm tired of seeing Hobbs get beat up every other week. We need some help at that position desperately. If we don't come away from draft day with one of those guys, I know I'm not going to be the only person disappointed.

I see safety as the biggest need for this team, but if you want to start throwing around free agents, this becomes the most confusing position...

I'd love to see Jim Leonhard and Gerald Sensabaugh on the Pats... Those are two relatively inexpensive, proven, young-ish safeties that fill the needs the Pats have at the position.

I agree that safety is a pretty big need. Rodney Harrison played pretty good last year when he actually played, but he's a free agent and not a healthy one either. His stay in New England is over, IMO. There is a lot to like out there as far as free agent strong safety types go. I'm not really a big fan of Jim Leonhard, too small for my liking, but Gerald Sensabaugh or Sean Jones would make me a happy camper. Both of those guys would be as good if not better options than Chung or Chip Vaughn. I would still probably prefer Delmas is a I had a choice, but if we're not able to land him at a pick that makes sense for us to draft him at, then one of those two would fill the hole nicely.

There are a few UFA CBs that I like, but I don't see any as real starters: Foxworth, McFadden, Paymah... Big upgrades.
Foxworth would be an upgrade. I think he would start over Hobbs. Really played well down the stretch against Atalanta. He's probably the best option out there outside of Asomugha if he were to hit the open market, so his price may be inflated.

At WR and OT, I really don't see the anything that makes sense for the Pats. Maybe Reggie Williams, Michael Clayton, or Bryant Johnson... But nothing as far as OT's go.
Reggie Williams might be good, but I would be more inclined to go for a speed guy than a bigger receiver, and Reggie really doesn't play up his 40 time.

As far as LB's go, the Pats were so injured last year, it's tough to really tell what the need is there. They do need a young ILB, but both Thomas and Vrabel are pretty solid ILB's when they move over. At OLB, they have Woods, Vrabel, and Thomas to go along with Crable (who looked good prior to getting injured and might be able to rotate inside) and Vince Redd (physical/athletic freak)... Gary Guyton should be good for depth... I think they'd have to find a real stud to draft someone...maybe if Maualuga or Cushing falls to #23, slight possibility for Sintim at #48 (though I've given up on them drafting UVA guys). So I really think they'll just pick up another vet FA to fill in where needed at LB...
I would disagree about the young ILB thing. Vrabel and Thomas are more than good enough to keep up for a few more years. The problem is outside. One of Vrabel those two needs to stay inside next year(probably Vrabel) because Bruschi is pretty much done. Guyton looks like he can start down the line, but as of right now, that leads to a lot of questions outside. I love Crable and Redd, but I wouldn't count on them. I would be very uncomfortable going forward with any of Crable, Woods, Redd or Robertson starting next year.
We weren't able to get anything going in the pass rush last year, health issues or not. That made our secondary look even worse than it actually was. I really think we need a Larry English type to get something going off the edge. The guys we have may be good in a couple of years. We need production at that position now, especially if we plan on contending for a title next year.

The Pats have ~$21m in cap space, but have a number of free agents and need to get Seymour and Wilfork extended.
Does that include Cassel? Not sure it does. That figure is a bit old.

So when you break down the free agents and cap space, it looks like they might have to grab a RT with #23 (J. Smith, Britton or Loadholt) if they really want to upgrade the position. I still think they need to go WR early though (Britt/Nicks at #48?)...

Britton would be nice, but I wouldn't expect Jason Smith(he would make an awful right tackle anyway) to be there and we would be reaching on Loadholt. I would actually love to pick Loadholt, but in the second or third...not the first. RT isn't a dire enough need to pull the trigger on with our first rounder though. Maybe if we pick up an extra pick in that round from the Cassel situation Britton would be nice. Britt wouldn't be a bad selection at #48 assuming we already picked a corner or a linebacker(or both, hopefully) but I still maintain that's a bit of a luxury pick.

FlyingElvis
02-11-2009, 03:12 PM
I was thinking Ocho next year, as his contract is through 2010 with an option for 2011. So one more year w/Randy & Wes with fill-in guys like Gaffney and any other guy off the street, basically.


I believe the cap number is correct at 21 million, but that is without Cassel on the roster. If he signs at 14+ million the cap space drops to 7.

hannah73
02-11-2009, 04:07 PM
I don't think he'll come in overweight. No reason for him to try to bulk up. He's got a really good body for a tight end(har har har). He's already so damn good as a blocker because of his length and quick feet that he's got no reason to think weight would help him. 4.9 is a bit of a stretch as well. High 4.7's-to mid 4.8's wouldn't be out of the question either.

I don't see him doing much as a receiver at all in the NFL. Too limited from a speed perspective. I also really don't like the fact he assaulted a cop. That's a dirtbag move, no matter what you say. I would really like to avoid that kind of crap on our team. Luckily, he'll probably go before #23 so it won't even be an issue.

Well, from what I understand he didn't really "assault a cop". He was dead drunk and he elbowed a cop while being arrested. AGain, not good, but if he doesn't have a drinking problem it may be a one off thing.

He's 6'6" has a great body for shielding defenders and great hands. Don't think you really need that much speed to be a good TE. And he can block really well. So he's kind of like Graham with hands, I suppose.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 04:23 PM
Well, from what I understand he didn't really "assault a cop". He was dead drunk and he elbowed a cop while being arrested. AGain, not good, but if he doesn't have a drinking problem it may be a one off thing.

He's 6'6" has a great body for shielding defenders and great hands. Don't think you really need that much speed to be a good TE. And he can block really well. So he's kind of like Graham with hands, I suppose.

Eh, I just don't think he's a very natural receiver. We can get basically the same value as a blocker with Anthony Hill and deal with Watson's bad hand until we can draft a legitimate tight end.


Tony Gonzalez wouldn't be a bad guy to take a look at as far as trades go...Not much of a chance of it happening though.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 04:43 PM
I was thinking Ocho next year, as his contract is through 2010 with an option for 2011. So one more year w/Randy & Wes with fill-in guys like Gaffney and any other guy off the street, basically.


I believe the cap number is correct at 21 million, but that is without Cassel on the roster. If he signs at 14+ million the cap space drops to 7.

Which would pretty much screw us out of a lot of those free agent safeties we should be checking out.

Don Vito
02-11-2009, 08:23 PM
Pettigrew is a beast and I love him as a prospect but we have much, much bigger needs on the defensive side of the ball.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 08:35 PM
Pettigrew is a beast and I love him as a prospect but we have much, much bigger needs on the defensive side of the ball.

I really think people are starting to lose sight of that a bit.

nepg
02-11-2009, 10:22 PM
The need for a TE shouldn't be overlooked either. Both Watson and Thomas are free agents after 2009... Do the Pats want to keep both/either around? This is a deep TE class, and one should be drafted early-on.
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gpngc
02-11-2009, 10:26 PM
The need for a TE shouldn't be overlooked either. Both Watson and Thomas are free agents after 2009... Do the Pats want to keep both/either around? This is a deep TE class, and one should be drafted early-on.

Plus BB loves TEs.

Draft is not always about plug-n-play by filling "needs".

The Pats can help out the defense in free agency.

This is a team that can win right now- the draft isn't necessarily the place they are going to look in order to fill their "need" areas. It's for building, and sometimes enhancing team strengths- not only helping out "weak" areas, and Pett would be a quality building block.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 10:27 PM
The need for a TE shouldn't be overlooked either. Both Watson and Thomas are free agents after 2009... Do the Pats want to keep both/either around? This is a deep TE class, and one should be drafted early-on.

No, I don't think we want to keep either around. I agree we need to draft a tight end, but I wouldn't be upset just living with Watson despite how frustrating he is as a player. Use the early picks on guys that help us win next year and to reload on defense.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 10:30 PM
Plus BB loves TEs.

Draft is not always about plug-n-play by filling "needs".

The Pats can help out the defense in free agency.

This is a team that can win right now- the draft isn't necessarily the place they are going to look in order to fill their "need" areas. It's for building, and sometimes enhancing team strengths- not only helping out "weak" areas, and Pett would be a quality building block.

While I agree about the draft not being about filling needs, you don't have an excuse not to exhaust every resource available to fill holes. By that definition, tight end is a need. OLB, CB, and SS are holes. Those can hurt you.

The entire tight end argument is weakened a bit for me about the entire nature of the position as well. Personally, I wouldn't draft a tight end in the first round over a position where you have other needs unless he is a Kellen Winslow type superstar. Pettigrew is more in the Heath Miller range of prospects. Not worth it when you can get a guy who can contribute more at a chink in the armor.

Bigburt63
02-11-2009, 10:34 PM
Plus BB loves TEs.

Draft is not always about plug-n-play by filling "needs".

The Pats can help out the defense in free agency.

This is a team that can win right now- the draft isn't necessarily the place they are going to look in order to fill their "need" areas. It's for building, and sometimes enhancing team strengths- not only helping out "weak" areas, and Pett would be a quality building block.

True, but sooner or later some youth needs to be infused on the defense...it started last year, but we have one legitimate safety, some young, although talented, probably not elite #1 types at CB, and the core of our LB corps is old Thomas, Vrable, Bruschi. And if the draft is deep in TE's, then that is even more of a reason to not draft a TE in the first if there are some real talents in the later rounds.

ElectricEye
02-11-2009, 10:36 PM
I think James Casey could fit our offense well. Could kind of give us a bit of what Watson was supposed to be. At the very least, he could give us a dependable guy to go to underneath who can make some yards after the catch. We bit on Garrett Mills once. Casey is a rich, rich mans Mills.

Don Vito
02-12-2009, 12:00 AM
I think James Casey could fit our offense well. Could kind of give us a bit of what Watson was supposed to be. At the very least, he could give us a dependable guy to go to underneath who can make some yards after the catch. We bit on Garrett Mills once. Casey is a rich, rich mans Mills.

I would love to see the Pats go after Casey as early as the third if he were still available. He could be a great weapon for us and like you said he is in the Garrett Mills mold but with a ton more ability. Casey played every position on offense beside the OL at Rice and he could be a huge weapon in our offense.

ElectricEye
02-12-2009, 01:20 AM
I would love to see the Pats go after Casey as early as the third if he were still available. He could be a great weapon for us and like you said he is in the Garrett Mills mold but with a ton more ability. Casey played every position on offense beside the OL at Rice and he could be a huge weapon in our offense.

There's really a few tight ends I could see us going after anywhere after the second round.

Casey would be pretty nasty in our offense. Big time short game guy with the athleticism to do damage after the catch. Chris Cooley isn't a bad comparison for him, except Casey isn't as limited athletically(although he probably won't be as good of a player). He's real strong too. Haven't seen him asked to block much, but I don't think he's offensive in that category either. Either way, I would take that with his kind of abilities as receiver. He's got to get a bit bigger, but he's built pretty solidly and has the frame to put on ten pounds as well.

Shawn Nelson would be the perfect player at tight end for us, but he probably won't be there when we go looking for a tight end. I'm really intrigued by his upside, personally. Nelson is underrated as an athlete, despite being undersized. He has the frame to put on a bit of weight and probably get a bit more explosive as well. He's already an advanced receiver and he's really making strides as a blocker as well. Probably hasn't reached his potential in either aspect of his game.

Anthony Hill and Richard Quinn are guys that I would really like for us to pick up at some point later in the draft. Both of them are dominant in line blockers who could probably help out our running game and big formations significantly. Hill probably has the higher upside of the two because he's still developing as a receiver, but even with that said he probably will never offer much more than a big body on the goaline in that area of his game. He's a good enough blocker to make up for it though. Could be a nice guy to have around. Quinn is pretty much limited to being a blocking specialist even though he's not completely stone legged. He's just not a very natural receiver.

I would be happy if we managed to get one of those guys after getting a corner and a linebacker(perhaps a right tackle as well). Of those four, I think Casey would do the most for us. He would really go along with what we like to do on underneath routes and give Brady another dependable set of hands to throw outlet passes to.

FlyingElvis
02-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Which would screw us out of FA safeties - Cassel this year or Ocho next year?

I'd really like to see a S drafted this year anyway. My gut feeling is Seymour may be a casualty next year, or maybe Wilfork. I won't like it, but I don't see them both being re-signed.

Moss is up in 2011, so it would be one year with Moss, Ocho, and Welker . . . :eek:

Stop crushing my dreams. lol

ElectricEye
02-12-2009, 11:12 AM
Which would screw us out of FA safeties - Cassel this year or Ocho next year?

I'd really like to see a S drafted this year anyway. My gut feeling is Seymour may be a casualty next year, or maybe Wilfork. I won't like it, but I don't see them both being re-signed.

Moss is up in 2011, so it would be one year with Moss, Ocho, and Welker . . . :eek:

Stop crushing my dreams. lol

I would rather have Wilfork than Ocho :p

I'm pretty sure Wilfork isn't allowed to leave. He's pretty much the reason our the most important player on our line. Lot of money comes off the books next year. We'll be able to get something done with both he and Seymour, hopefully.

FlyingElvis
02-12-2009, 11:16 AM
well . . . if lots of money is freed up (and there's the looming lack of a CBA) then perhaps we can have all 3. :)

ElectricEye
02-12-2009, 11:18 AM
well . . . if lots of money is freed up (and there's the looming lack of a CBA) then perhaps we can have all 3. :)

That would be nice haha.

Still think Johnson is much more of a headache then he is worth. He would absolutely explode playing next to Randy Moss, but I can't handle his ego personally. He contributed more than a little to the Bengals blowing up. We took a risk with Randy Moss and lucked out with a good guy once. Wouldn't want to try running through the fire again haha.

FlyingElvis
02-12-2009, 11:22 AM
See, I think Ocho is a safer move than Moss. Chad has never quit on the field. Ever. He's more like Corey Dillon - a "malcontent" - or, more appropriately, a guy who played hard and did everything right for many years while playing for one of the biggest jokes in the league.

I'm fine with the guy who finally says enough is enough when it comes to the losing franchise he has given everything to over the years. Winning puts an end to that type of malcontent PDQ.

ElectricEye
02-12-2009, 11:23 AM
See, I think Ocho is a safer move than Moss. Chad has never quit on the field. Ever. He's more like Corey Dillon - a "malcontent" - or, more appropriately, a guy who played hard and did everything right for many years while playing for one of the biggest jokes in the league.

I'm fine with the guy who finally says enough is enough when it comes to the losing franchise he has given everything to over the years. Winning puts an end to that type of malcontent PDQ.

He's got way too big of a mouth though, and I always argued that it was all in good fun with Chad until the past couple years...but he's got a bit of media ***** in him. Don't like that, personally.

FlyingElvis
02-12-2009, 11:33 AM
I'm not a huge fan of it either, but I've given up hope for anything else from a true stud WR. Maybe the Cards would trade us Fitz.

ElectricEye
02-12-2009, 11:35 AM
We all know that isn't happening haha. I wish we somehow had the money to land Boldin. That would be great, both now and after Moss.

hannah73
02-12-2009, 12:31 PM
Pettigrew/ TE OSU. Already wrote about. Complete TE. NOt great speed but great size, athletic ability, phenom as a blocker, etc. 1st. Think Graham with better athletic ability and hands.

Percy Harvin WR/RB. One of a kind athlete who gets huge yards with every touch either as WR or RB. Not immature like Chad Jackson. 1st

Jarius Byrd from Oregon, great ball skills, unreal athlete. Not sure if he has enough man cover skills or pure speed. Son of a NFL CB. Decent size at 6'0" 200 lbs. Probably 3rd round.

Phil Loadholt, maybe would be a good RT, although they said he looked better at LT during the senior bowl. Probably 2nd round.

Tyrone McKenzie could play OLB or ILB, great athlete, great production. 4th/5th.

Scott McKillop, one of those LBs who is super productive but won't measure that well, was also a great wrestler in high school, good sign. Decent size. 4th/5th

Nic Harris, Safety/OLB Oklahoma, seems too big to play safety at 6'3" 230, but is a world better than sanders and has the size of Rodney. Good coverage ability, super production, great intangibles, true football player. 3rd/4th.

Quan Cosby/ WR Texas 6th smaller WR with great hands, kind of Branch-esque. Super productive. If the pats don't draft Harvin.

Tyson Jackson DE/ LSU. Good 3-4 potential but production slacked off after sophomore year for some reason. Should be good at holding the point. 2nd / 3rd round.

Alex Mack C / G Cal. Koppen isn't that good and can't handle large DL. Could play guard as needed. 2nd

Ricky Jean-Francois LSU. DE/DT Super talented though a little short to play 3-4 end at 6'3". Very strong and quick, but checkered productivity at LSU partly due to injuries. 5th/6th

Marlon Lucky RB Nebraska. Good production early at Nebraska...less later partly due to coaching changes. Good receiving ability also. 5th/6th

Mitch King DL Iowa undersized DL played LB in high school. Great speed, quickness, athletic ability, strength. 6'2" 270, kind of Bruschi esque. Would have to lose 10-15 pounds. 5th.

Robert Ayers DE TN. Could play Vrabel's role, although the Pats already have a ton of talent there. 2nd

nepg
02-12-2009, 01:23 PM
He's got way too big of a mouth though, and I always argued that it was all in good fun with Chad until the past couple years...but he's got a bit of media ***** in him. Don't like that, personally.

Ya, Chad's not a bad guy, and the way he goes about things makes him look really bad. TJ Houshmandzadeh (UFA by the way) is just as good and does it with his mouth shut.
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FlyingElvis
02-12-2009, 01:28 PM
TJ is more of a possession guy. He's very good, but definitely not as good as Johnson.

Boldin . . . hahaha - well, at least you're dreaming with me now.

ElectricEye
02-12-2009, 01:33 PM
Realistically, we have what it takes to acquire him in terms of draft choices, but it's a pipe dream from a finical perspective. Wherever Boldin goes, he's getting paid and then some.

Bigburt63
02-13-2009, 10:52 AM
TE is definitely a need, don't get me wrong, but I don't want to go near a first round TE, but we probably will, that's just how we do things...IMO there are bigger needs on defense, but if the pats took Pettigrew I could understand their reasoning with Watson and Thomas set to be free agents at the end of next year. I think the more likely move would be to grab a decent veteran option (Im not sure exactly who is available), if there is one, specifically a blocking TE. Again, if they take Pettigrew I could see the reasoning, wanting a young TE to have for the future with Watson and Thomas likely to leave next year, or at least capable of leaving next year.

Bigburt63
02-13-2009, 04:26 PM
Another possibility that may seem to be against the grain is for the patriots to draft a WR. Somebody like DHB, Nicks, maybe even Harvin if he appeals to the coaches could be drafted in the first round. Aside from Moss and Welker, we really don't have any legitimate talent at WR (damn you Chad Jackson!)

HellonEarth84
02-13-2009, 09:15 PM
Bear Pascoe in the 4th round would be nice.

and hes from Fresno State like Mankins and Sanders. BB seems to like drafting out of there.

ElectricEye
02-13-2009, 09:24 PM
Another possibility that may seem to be against the grain is for the patriots to draft a WR. Somebody like DHB, Nicks, maybe even Harvin if he appeals to the coaches could be drafted in the first round. Aside from Moss and Welker, we really don't have any legitimate talent at WR (damn you Chad Jackson!)

Wouldn't want to dirty our hands with Harvin. I'm skeptical about DHB as well. Don't think Nicks would be the greatest fit either...but should he fall to us in the second and I don't think he would, I would be all over it. Britt even more so than Nicks.

HellonEarth84
02-13-2009, 09:25 PM
Larry English

Brian Cushing

Alphonso Smith

Clint Sintim

Mike Mickens

Patrick Chung

Worrell Williams

Antonio Appleby

Bear Pascoe

Otis Wiley

Chip Vaughn

BradysKnee
02-14-2009, 08:12 AM
If we get minny's first, we should grab Pettigrew. He's a great player.

But our first and foremost priority has to be Alphonso Smith, He's an amazing corner, and the only reason he's not top 10 is because of his height.

Lauraintis is another strong option. I think outside we gotta give Crable more time.

Bigburt63
02-14-2009, 12:56 PM
Wouldn't want to dirty our hands with Harvin. I'm skeptical about DHB as well. Don't think Nicks would be the greatest fit either...but should he fall to us in the second and I don't think he would, I would be all over it. Britt even more so than Nicks.

Oh I'm not saying Im high on Harvin or DHB, just that the surprise pick I could see happening is going WR. Harvin is intriguing, but I don't know how well he fits in the NFL, but there are a few offenses (NE, Indy to name a couple) that could maximize his abilities, as he is an incredible athlete.

Babylon
02-14-2009, 06:57 PM
I'm high on Harvin and even more so if they get an extra 1st for Cassel. My dream draft would probably go something like:

DJ Moore
Harvin
Matthews
Barwin
Casey

Hell i might even move back there.

ElectricEye
02-15-2009, 01:22 AM
I'm high on Harvin and even more so if they get an extra 1st for Cassel. My dream draft would probably go something like:

DJ Moore
Harvin
Matthews
Barwin
Casey

Hell i might even move back there.

That wouldn't be a bad haul. Have to disagree with you about Harvin though...Prefer Britt or DHB is we're taking a receiver.

Babylon
02-15-2009, 11:12 AM
That wouldn't be a bad haul. Have to disagree with you about Harvin though...Prefer Britt or DHB is we're taking a receiver.


My fascination with Harvin if you will is his versatility. The guy has played with weak arm QBs his whole career at Florida, i would like to see him completely healthy and see how he does with a QB that can get the ball down the field. Whether we see that at the combine or in workouts i'm not sure.

FlyingElvis
02-16-2009, 01:00 PM
So what is your ideal draft board, then?

Bigburt63
02-16-2009, 03:48 PM
There are so many ways the patritos could go this draft. S is a huge need, but they could very likely sign a veteran that they feel fits the need. For LB, it comes down to how much they trust the young guys they took last year. I could see the patriots going LB in the first, or not at all. The same can be said for CB, let the young guys from last year develop, pick up a few veterans, or take another CB in the first. DL depth could be used, and a potential replacement for Seymour may be needed. WR depth is really lacking outside of Moss and Welker, and both of our TE's have been at least somewhat disappointing and are both FA's next year. Cassell shoul dbe traded IMO, but depending on what we gets that allows us to fill more holes through the draft. OL depth could be used, but what positions exactly, and when can we find a guy to upgrade on the line without passing up on a chance to fill a bigger need?

I'm not sure what my ideal draft board would look like, but some of the prospects I like in the first are Alphonso Smith, Clint Sintim, JL is starting to grow on me (courtesy of RoP), Louis Delmas, Rashard Johnson (albeit a reach), maybe Aaron Maybin/Brian Cushing/Larry English, and if he were to somehow fall Rey Maulauga.

nepg
02-16-2009, 06:17 PM
OL is tough because there are only so many guys that would actually provide upgrades for the Pats. And if they don't upgrade, it's almost pointless to bring in any at all outside of UDFA's...

DL is tricky because Wilfork and Seymour are FA's after 2009. They have pretty solid, long-tenured depth... But if they can nab a guy like Tyson Jackson in the 2nd round...I don't know that they can pass on that.

S is blurry because there are lots of moderately-priced UFA's out there, and it's tough to figure out what the story is with the draft prospects before the combine and workouts... If William Moore is healthy and works out well, it's unlikely he'll even be there at #23... Are any of the UFAs or draft prospects true upgrades over James Sanders (who looked great early in his career, but has been a disappointment since)? It's really tough to tell...

CB...I like DJ Moore and Vontae Davis, but neither is likely to be there... Alphonso Smith just doesn't fit the profile of someone the Pats would draft in the first round (they got Samuel and Hobbs in the 4th and 3rd rounds respectively...why would they use a 1st on a similar prospect?)... And after DJ Moore is gone, the talent level is pretty even...they should be able to get a good corner in the 3rd or 4th fairly easily.

I see LB as an option only if there's a real stud staring them in the face at one of their picks...

So, ya, this is a tough draft to project for the Pats...
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FlyingElvis
02-17-2009, 08:54 AM
The Cassel situation makes everything a little crazy. I think there's is no inclination at all to keep him, and the franchise tag is strictly to secure picks in a trade. O'Connell will be expected to step up if Brady has a set back or is really rusty.

A Cassel trade will bring either a 1st round pick (18-24, iirc) or two 2nds, at which point we will see an epic day of classic Patriot Wheel-n-Deal. They could drop a few picks at a time, stocking up with a 2010 pick with each deal and still end up with 4 starters.

FlyingElvis
02-17-2009, 10:28 AM
I was looking at Scott's ranking page and have decided on a draft I think would look great. His list is linked here (http://www.draftcountdown.com/rankings/top.php), but it is only seniors so that's all I incorporated.

I did assume Cassel gets moved, and my thoughts are that will be a deal with the Lions. I just posted it elsewhere, but I think the Lions could trade the Cowboys #1 (20 overall) and would still have plenty of picks left. They would then have turned Roy Williams into a potential franchise QB & pick #82 while keeping their picks - #1, 33 & 65 and NOT have to deal with a rookie QB. That's great value for Williams, imo. Pats get pick #20 and a 3rd next year.

So we have picks # 20, 23, 47, 58, 89 (3 rounds)
Based on Scott's list the Pats would be able to trade down to the end of the 1st with both picks and gain some extra draft spots in 2010. Realistic?? Maybe, maybe not, but I'm just going on the current rankings list regardless of needs for the teams at that spot.

Trade 20 to 31 and get a 2nd next year.
Trade pick 23 to 26 and get a 3rd next year.

Picks:
26 – Maybin (or English if they like him better)
31 – Moore (or other S – buy I would like to get the tallest & probably most athletic)
47 – Loadholt (or Butler for you CB crazed Pats fans :))
58 – Nelson (or Coffman – I really don't know which would be best)
89 – Gilbert (a DT at 6'6" 280 – which means he's got the room to top 300, not a bad project to take on)

Net result is all these players and 4th thru 7th round picks plus two 3rds and a 2nd in 2010. Arizona's 2nd, Lions 3rd & Ravens 3rd.

Is nice, no?

nepg
02-17-2009, 10:36 AM
I don't think they'll get a first for Cassel...they might get a conditional pick that could become a first rounder... I know the Chiefs got a 1st and 2 3rd's for Jared Allen, but I just don't see the Pats getting that great of a package for Cassel...
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HellonEarth84
02-17-2009, 02:22 PM
Picks:
26 – Maybin (or English if they like him better)
31 – Moore (or other S – buy I would like to get the tallest & probably most athletic)
47 – Loadholt (or Butler for you CB crazed Pats fans :))


26-BUST
31-BUST
47-BUST

NO THANKS

hannah73
02-17-2009, 03:30 PM
Maybin I think is an absolute bust.

What skill does he have to make anyone think he's a 3-4 OLB? One year of good play in a weak conference and then mostly against weak teams? Too small and light to play 3-4 OLB, but maybe he'll gain some weight? Marginal intelligence and instincts?

Crable
Robertson
Craig
Woods

All look better than this guy. He's just be another body on the pile. I think to draft a 3-4 OLB type, they need some idea that this guy is better than what they have.

proshoota25
02-19-2009, 04:10 PM
with the picks you listed, you can get alot better prospects than you listed

Todd Bertuzzi
02-19-2009, 04:12 PM
26-BUST
31-BUST
47-BUST

NO THANKS

Loadholt's not a bust, but Moore and Maybin are risky picks for sure.

nepg
02-19-2009, 06:18 PM
Moore at 31 really is not a risky pick. Maybin is pretty much a complete no-go. Loadholt would be a steal at 47.

The Pats are likely going to go with the player who has the best combination of production, physicality, football IQ, and athleticism with their first round pick(s)...just like they always do.
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Nalej
02-23-2009, 11:50 AM
We will get a first rounder for Cassel. I'm pretty confident on that

nepg
02-23-2009, 05:40 PM
Early second is more of a reality.

*The Vikings just traded a 4th for Rosenfels. They're officially out of the market.

*Kyle Orton really did a decent job for the Bears. They need better weapons for him to throw to. They don't need another QB to throw to nothingness...

*The Jets are 100% no-go.

*I don't see Tampa Bay investing those resources towards Cassel...

*Detroit's likely to roll with Stafford (though I disagree with that one)...

Even in the early second, the market is tough-to-non-existant...

*See above for Detroit.

*KC kept Chan Gailey, so they could make modifications to the offense they installed at the end of 2008 and give Thigpen a harder look...

That leaves St. Louis and San Francisco as the only possibilities at 35 and 43... With SF, they might get Sanchez at 10 or opt to roll with Shaun Hill for 2009... StL might give Bulger another go.
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hannah73
02-25-2009, 11:07 AM
Looks like Pettigrew is a no-go in the 1st. Too slow.

I think they go for either alphonso smith or Percy Harvin. Hopefully Harvin isn't a loser like Chad Jackson. He was a swine.

Other guys

Casey TE Rice, in the 3rd
Delmas S they apparently like. 2nd
I'd like to see them draft the safety from TCU, Hodge. 3rd/4th
Jaruis Byrd, not sure if he has the speed, but he'd be a great safety. 3rd

Possibly Brown RB, UConn 3rd (prob. won't last that long).

I could see them doing something crazy like Moreno or Oher in the 1st too. If Oher lasts that long. Maybe even maulauga.

Can't see them wasting high picks on OLB types, as they have about 5 on the roster already.

ILB Jaspar Brinkley is a guy they need, 4th/5th.

Bigburt63
02-25-2009, 11:20 AM
Brown won't last past the 2nd. If Oher falls to 23 we better take him, same goes for Rey Rey. Delmas could go in the first to the Pats, same with Rashad Johnson. I like Brinkley, more of a late 2nd early third guy though at this point IMO.

hannah73
02-26-2009, 11:55 AM
Don't know if they take Rey. He may be a bust in the making. May not have the head for the Pats defense.

Another guy they are interested in is Fenuki Tupou from Oregon.

Patrick Chung, may have mentioned before. He could be a good pick in the 2nd.

On another board they're having man crushes (using words like "binkie" which sounds homosexual to me (not that there's anything wrong with that)) on Delmas. One scout has him rated a 4th rounder and these guys want to draft him at #23 lest they miss him. He's their "binkie".

I'm thinking Harvin in teh first is a real possibility.

Jarron Gilbert with the first pick in the 2nd if they can.

hannah73
02-27-2009, 12:39 PM
OK I'm changing my mind again. I'm sure this is how the pats are going. I think they're very high on Alphonso Smith, basically a very rich man's ellis hobbes.

Alphonso smith / Pettigrew 1st

Jarron gilbert 2nd

Patrick Chung S Oregon

James Casey TE 3a /

Jairus Byrd 3 supplemental

Jaspar Brinkley 4th

Sammy Lee Hill DT/DE 5th

Jarrett Dillard WR 5th supplemental

Fenuki Tupou OL / Oregon 6th


Other possibilities:

Knowshown Moreno in the 1st. Yes, it's a possibility. Maroney is junk.

They're also interested in Kory Sheets RB from Purdue, I believe.

kennyb
03-01-2009, 12:54 PM
I will throw some stuff out, maybe some of itg will stick.

First off, don't know if they take an OLB high. As they have like 4 guys on the roster who are in the same position? Who is to say that Connor Barwin is better than Crable?

Also safety, they need a very intelligent guy and they also have Tank Williams coming back, if I recall correctly.

But I see them taking players from this pool.

Jarrod Gilbert - don't know if he can hold the point in the 3-4, seems to have the athletic ability and strength though...would save the Pats huge money if they can get rid of Seymour next year

CB - Butler. Very good all around CB, can play man, very athletic.

S - Delmas or Chung.

OL - Mack or Unger - they need help at guard eventually and a backup for Koppen would be good.

RB - Brown or Moreno - may not want a super high pick as they hhave bust maroney and just signe Taylor. Pats don't seem good at high RB picks.

ILB Jaspar Brinkley - don't know if he's athltic enough or smart enough to learn their complicated system but he's very interesting. Maybe get him in the 4th.

DL - Sammy Lee Hill would be good replacement for Wilfork also may be tall enough to play end. 4th rounder probably


TE- Casey 3rd rounder. Great all around athletic ability/work ethic. Little bit worried that he's kind of similar to Dave Thomas who hasn't put things together yet (although it may be because he's had injuries).

WR- there are a ton of guys, but don't think they want any brand name guys are they are too bustable. jarrett Dillard from Rice would be good, although he's kind of small, he has great ability overall. Also very intelligent and hard worker.


also WR Hakeem Nicks would be a good possession type receiver who doesn't drop a lot of balls. May have to spend a #2 on him though.

latter rounds:

CB - Bradley Fletcher Iowa

OL - Tupou later pick would make a great guard. Unger actually moved from LT so he could play it.

RB - Kory Sheets, Purdue later round pick has Faulk like abilities

OG Seth Olsen Iowa

nepg
03-01-2009, 01:37 PM
I don't think they have OLB high on their list, but you can bet your ass they're taking long, hard looks at Matthews, Barwin, and Sintim... Crable was projected as a guy who could play either ILB or OLB in a 3-4, and Adalius Thomas's best efforts fo far with the Pats have been at ILB...so they have options there...

The best value for the Pats at #23 might be at OL. Duke Robinson should be there, he's a guy that can play either OG or RT. Eben Britton is another possibility in the first. I think they'll address RT and/or G early on... Loadholt, Meredith, and Murtha are other possibilities.

DL...they haven't re-signed Wright yet, and should have a shot at Jarron Gilbert, and maybe even Tyson Jackson. I really think they'll end up with one of those two guys or Ziggy Hood later. They haven't brought in a real stud at DE since they drafted Hill... Ron Brace might also be an option - he's being severely overlooked because of Raji.

The CB's are so clustered together, it's really hard to rank them, but Sean Smith and Darius Butler definitely both jump out at you. Both are good options with either pick, I also love Joe Burnett a little later.

Safety is the team's biggest need. If William Moore's pro day goes well, I'd love him in New England - even if it takes #23 to get him. I really believe his drop in interceptions (he still produced - just a different kind of stat line) is due to injury and a change in the way he was utilized. I love Chung in the 2nd, but am not a big Delmas fan like some are.

TE seems like a much lesser need now that they've brought in Baker. If they can find a guy like Darius Hill to work with on Day 2, that's a win. Not worried about it otherwise...

RB is a UDFA position for the Pats...maybe Tyrell Sutton if he keeps falling...
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proshoota25
03-01-2009, 01:49 PM
My Patriots Mock Draft.....

1. Percy Harvin, WR, Florida
2. Connor Barwin, OLB, Cincy
2. William Moore, S, Mizz
2. Darius Butler, CB, UCONN

Babylon
03-01-2009, 02:51 PM
My Patriots Mock Draft.....

1. Percy Harvin, WR, Florida
2. Connor Barwin, OLB, Cincy
2. William Moore, S, Mizz
2. Darius Butler, CB, UCONN


You are a good man.

Bigburt63
03-01-2009, 03:24 PM
That would be awesome...possibly even replacing Barwin with Sintim.

AntoinCD
03-01-2009, 04:05 PM
My Patriots Mock Draft.....

1. Percy Harvin, WR, Florida
2. Connor Barwin, OLB, Cincy
2. William Moore, S, Mizz
2. Darius Butler, CB, UCONN

Oh hell yea i'd take that

Babylon
03-01-2009, 05:04 PM
That would be awesome...possibly even replacing Barwin with Sintim.


There is no comparison between the two as far as athletic ability is concerned. If Barwin had played at SC or Florida he'd be a top 15 pick.

Bigburt63
03-01-2009, 06:25 PM
There is no comparison between the two as far as athletic ability is concerned. If Barwin had played at SC or Florida he'd be a top 15 pick.

Ya probably, I just like Sintim more though...probably just me :)

Nalej
03-01-2009, 06:28 PM
C.Barwin only played one year at that position.
Tight End before that... that's kinda risky to take with our first couple of 2nd rds
After reading a couple of scouting reports though- he seems like a guy I'd like on the Pats.
Scott has him as a 2nd/3rd rd so I wouldn't use our 34th on him
I still like L.English or Sintim if available at 34.
I just don't want us to draft Cushings or Matthews.
Not a fan of them- then again- L.Tatufu (or whateva) turned out alright

Babylon
03-01-2009, 07:10 PM
C.Barwin only played one year at that position.
Tight End before that... that's kinda risky to take with our first couple of 2nd rds
After reading a couple of scouting reports though- he seems like a guy I'd like on the Pats.
Scott has him as a 2nd/3rd rd so I wouldn't use our 34th on him
I still like L.English or Sintim if available at 34.
I just don't want us to draft Cushings or Matthews.
Not a fan of them- then again- L.Tatufu (or whateva) turned out alright

Barwin isnt as experienced playing defense but his highlight reel this year is pretty unreal.I also like the fact that he played TE, shows some flexibilty there. Sinitim is more of a pass rusher that looks a bit lost in space.

I think English at about 275 lbs is a DE so not putting him in the 3-4 OLB discussion.

I like Cushing and Matthews but i think Clay is a better fit for the Pats. He's also a great pass rusher with better wheels than Sintim.

To complicate things further i'm not convinced that Brown and Maybin might not be available at that 23rd pick making the decisions even more interesting.

Used to drive through Worcester all the time when i was working in Springfield and living in Lowell.

Nalej
03-01-2009, 09:23 PM
Not arguing the Barwin pick- like I said- he looks like a guy I'd like on the Pats.
I just said I wouldn't use the 34th on him unless all the other OLBs were gone by then.

If you're right about Clay then I'll for it.

Agree @ 23rd pick

That's kind of a long drive, man. I wouldn't of been able to do that.
Unless you know some short cut that involves the space/time continuum. lol

Babylon
03-02-2009, 01:49 PM
Not arguing the Barwin pick- like I said- he looks like a guy I'd like on the Pats.
I just said I wouldn't use the 34th on him unless all the other OLBs were gone by then.

If you're right about Clay then I'll for it.

Agree @ 23rd pick

That's kind of a long drive, man. I wouldn't of been able to do that.
Unless you know some short cut that involves the space/time continuum. lol

Just made that run on the weekend, stayed at a motel during the week.

ryno626
03-05-2009, 06:03 PM
I'm hoping we walk away from the draft with a pass rushing OLB, i think the team is in a great posistion to get one in the first round without having to trade up. Even if they had to move up the ammo is there is jump up a few spots. I've become a fan of Larry English but i'd be surprised if he made it past Chicago or Tampa Bay plus he seems like he's almost too big to man the OLB spot i thought i saw somewhere he weighed in at around 270 at the combine.

Is there a chance to see Brian Robiskie taken in the 2nd? I think he'd fill Jabar Gaffney's shoes

FlyingElvis
03-06-2009, 11:05 AM
We were just discussing Robiskie yesterday in the Free Agent thread. Fingers are crossed . . . that we can get him in the 3rd.

Don Vito
03-06-2009, 12:46 PM
We were just discussing Robiskie yesterday in the Free Agent thread. Fingers are crossed . . . that we can get him in the 3rd.


Elvis my bad, it says I edited your post but I was trying to quote it not edit it. Didn't change anything.

I was going to say I would love Robiskie on the Pats, he looks to be a solid all around receiver. I would love for us to snatch him in the third, but unfortunately he will probably go a lot earlier than that due to his performance in Indy. Some team may fall in love with him and take him as early as the late first (he seems like a Colt to me).

ElectricEye
03-06-2009, 01:03 PM
I don't think late first is a possibility, but mid to late second is a possibility. I can see him falling a bit too.

Menardo75
03-06-2009, 01:05 PM
We were just discussing Robiskie yesterday in the Free Agent thread. Fingers are crossed . . . that we can get him in the 3rd.

I think Robiskie has a good chance to be one of the best receivers in this draft.

Don Vito
03-06-2009, 01:12 PM
Yeah, I think he could be the most well rounded wideout in the class. Has all of the tools to succeed but he does everything that makes a good receiver a great receiver (smooth, great hands, great routes, concentration).

I would love for us to grab Robiskie, but he just seems like a Colt to me. If they don't take a DT in the first I would not be suprised if they took him, but thats just me.

Matthew Jones
03-06-2009, 01:53 PM
I would not be happy with any offensive player in the first round short of Michael Crabtree, Jeremy Maclin, or one of the elite offensive tackles. New England desperately needs to spend picks on the defensive side of the ball, as it's failed them against the Colts in the AFC Championship and at the end of the Super Bowl, likely costing them two titles. Here's what I'm hoping for:

1. OLB Clint Sintim, Virginia
2. ILB James Laurinaitis, Ohio State
2. FS Rashad Johnson, Alabama
2. CB Victor "Macho" Harris, Virginia Tech

roscoesdad27
03-06-2009, 02:06 PM
1) A. Maybin olb penn state
fluid athelete should make a smooth transition from d.e. to 3-4 olb...fierce pass rusher that fills a huge need at great value here.

2a) D. Butler c.b. uconn
athletic playmaker with geat ballskills and hands...reminds me of asannte samuel in coverage...great return guy and can even line up at w.r.

2b) W. Moore s.s. mizzou
elite athlete that has shown flashes of brilliance but struggled bigtime in coverage this year and some are moving him to wlb....will get some of the best coaching in the league and fills a major need at great value here...could be the steal of the draft.

2c) D. Williams r.b./w.r. psu
offensive weapon can be a great #2 or slot reciever, a much needed 3rd down r.b. and give bill a good excuse to run the wildcat...second best return guy in the draft behind maclin...had the flu during the combine but will run in the low 4.4's at his proday imho....sleeper

3) A. Gardner o.t. g.t.
very solid o.t. prospect can play either left or right tackle and will be a good investmment with brady coming back off injury.

complete mock here
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1533596&posted=1#post1533596

thoughts?

FlyingElvis
03-06-2009, 02:50 PM
^ I'd like to see defensive players with the first three, but after that I'd be fine w/Robiskie. So maybe it will cost the 58 overall we're holding. I would still be happy with that based on his creds.

Elvis my bad, it says I edited your post but I was trying to quote it not edit it. Didn't change anything.

I was going to say I would love Robiskie on the Pats, he looks to be a solid all around receiver. I would love for us to snatch him in the third, but unfortunately he will probably go a lot earlier than that due to his performance in Indy. Some team may fall in love with him and take him as early as the late first (he seems like a Colt to me).
lol - I forgot you were a mod.

Based on his showing at the combine I thought he would be bumped to late 2nd or higher. But my knowledge is pretty limited on most of these guys so I wasn't sure.

hannah73
03-06-2009, 02:53 PM
1) A. Maybin olb penn state
fluid athelete should make a smooth transition from d.e. to 3-4 olb...fierce pass rusher that fills a huge need at great value here.

2a) D. Butler c.b. uconn
athletic playmaker with geat ballskills and hands...reminds me of asannte samuel in coverage...great return guy and can even line up at w.r.

2b) W. Moore s.s. mizzou
elite athlete that has shown flashes of brilliance but struggled bigtime in coverage this year and some are moving him to wlb....will get some of the best coaching in the league and fills a major need at great value here...could be the steal of the draft.

2c) D. Williams r.b./w.r. psu
offensive weapon can be a great #2 or slot reciever, a much needed 3rd down r.b. and give bill a good excuse to run the wildcat...second best return guy in the draft behind maclin...had the flu during the combine but will run in the low 4.4's at his proday imho....sleeper

3) A. Gardner o.t. g.t.
very solid o.t. prospect can play either left or right tackle and will be a good investmment with brady coming back off injury.

complete mock here
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1533596&posted=1#post1533596

thoughts?

Maybin? Puke. They already have about 3 guys just like him or better, Crable, Redd, Woods. He has no ability to stop the run and has no experience.

Butler, don't know, not a priority with 2 2nd year players and Springs on teh roster, but maybe sometime.

Moore, interesting pick there.

D william, psu, complete bust. Don't think they waste a pick on him.

The other guy I haven't heard of.

I'd rather see them take a

Nalej
03-06-2009, 04:13 PM
My own assessment...

1) At 23- Maybin, English, Barwin and Sintim are available.
Leading me to believe that one of them will be available at 34
So I'd take DHB at that spot.

2a) At 34- I'd take one of the those pass rushing OLB's I previous stated.

2b) W. Moore pick is good

2c) WR is taken cared of in the 1st round so I think the CB position needs to be addressed. I like M. Mickens here (CIN)

3) I like the OT position here as well. I don't know the guy but if he versitile like you say and can play the RT well enough- or can be groomed into a starting RT- I'd love it. Our right side blows

Don Vito
03-06-2009, 06:13 PM
I would not be happy with any offensive player in the first round short of Michael Crabtree, Jeremy Maclin, or one of the elite offensive tackles. New England desperately needs to spend picks on the defensive side of the ball, as it's failed them against the Colts in the AFC Championship and at the end of the Super Bowl, likely costing them two titles. Here's what I'm hoping for:

1. OLB Clint Sintim, Virginia
2. ILB James Laurinaitis, Ohio State
2. FS Rashad Johnson, Alabama
2. CB Victor "Macho" Harris, Virginia Tech

I agree with you completely, I wouldn't mind if we spent a day 1 pick on an offensive player but I would be the happiest guy around if we spent all 4 of our day 1 picks on defense. I would love this scenario personally-

1. ILB Rey Maualuga

2a. OLB Clint Sintim (I think he will be available, if he isn't than Larry English should be)

2b. FS Rashad Johnson (if they want Meriweather at SS, but if they want him at free than Willie Moore or Patrick Chung)

2c. CB Jairus Byrd

Matthew Jones
03-08-2009, 04:35 PM
Maybin? Puke. They already have about 3 guys just like him or better, Crable, Redd, Woods. He has no ability to stop the run and has no experience.

Three guys just like him or better? Meaning three guys who, in this draft, would have top-50 talent? Don't confuse me with someone who actually wants Aaron Maybin, but at the same time, let's be realistic. 200+ picks, and all 32 teams passed on Vince Redd and Pierre Woods not once, not twice, not three times, but up to 10-11 times each. No one is going to pass on Aaron Maybin 10 times. Shawn Crable was a third round pick.

I agree that Crable should be given a chance, and you should know that i do also like Vince Redd and Pierre Woods, but at the same time, if you have the ability to add a premium pass rusher, you have to do it. Outside linebacker is becoming the second most important position on defense after nose tackle, and we don't have a stud to put opposite Thomas. You're acting like those three guys have actually achieved something in the NFL when they haven't.

Don Vito
03-09-2009, 03:32 PM
Love Scott's new mock, he gave us some guys who I think could be big time players for us at positions of need.

1. Clint Sintim
2. Louis Delmas
2. Brian Robiskie
2. Jairus Byrd

I love the Byrd pick, I think he is really underrated. He's got great size for a corner at 5-11 205, is physical, athletic, and has great coverage skills. Not to mention that his father was a stud corner, and the Pats love the guys with a great football background. He declared after his junior year but he was a solid corner during his time at Oregon and has all of the tools and intangibles to make the transition to the NFL. I really want us to pick Byrd and I think it could happen.

Sintim is a guy who all of us Pats fans were really high on until his stock dropped at the senior bowl a little, but he is still as good a fit for our defense as any DE/LB in this class. I would still love to see Sintim in a Pats uni, but Larry English could be a possibility there too. I think he is going to be a stud.

Delmas is another guy who I like a lot, he and Meriweather would be great together. He is athletic, can hit, and is an intelligent football player. He would push James Sanders to a backup/special teams role where I think he is better suited for and he could excell in that roll. Sanders is not a bad player, he just doesn't have the athleticism you look for in a starting NFL DB. He is very intelligent but he is not like Rodney in that he can make plays not only against the run but in coverage consistently despite the lack of ideal athleticism.

If we take a wideout, I would love for us to get Robiskie. He is exactly what we need because he is super at working the middle, and if he can do that Moss and Welker be that more dangerous down the field and underneath respectively. He has great size, athleticism, super hands, and is tough.

I know a lot of Pats fans want this draft to be defense defense defense, and trust me I am one of them, but we still need another receiver. I think Scott's newest mock is an ideal day 1 for us.

Bigburt63
03-09-2009, 06:11 PM
Ya i really like this draft, possibly my favorite draft that I've seen this year. Sintim is my favorite prospect for the patriots. Delmas, Robiskie, and Byrd are all perfect fits for the our needs.

ElectricEye
03-09-2009, 09:57 PM
Love Scott's new mock, he gave us some guys who I think could be big time players for us at positions of need.

1. Clint Sintim
2. Louis Delmas
2. Brian Robiskie
2. Jairus Byrd

I love the Byrd pick, I think he is really underrated. He's got great size for a corner at 5-11 205, is physical, athletic, and has great coverage skills. Not to mention that his father was a stud corner, and the Pats love the guys with a great football background. He declared after his junior year but he was a solid corner during his time at Oregon and has all of the tools and intangibles to make the transition to the NFL. I really want us to pick Byrd and I think it could happen.

Sintim is a guy who all of us Pats fans were really high on until his stock dropped at the senior bowl a little, but he is still as good a fit for our defense as any DE/LB in this class. I would still love to see Sintim in a Pats uni, but Larry English could be a possibility there too. I think he is going to be a stud.

Delmas is another guy who I like a lot, he and Meriweather would be great together. He is athletic, can hit, and is an intelligent football player. He would push James Sanders to a backup/special teams role where I think he is better suited for and he could excell in that roll. Sanders is not a bad player, he just doesn't have the athleticism you look for in a starting NFL DB. He is very intelligent but he is not like Rodney in that he can make plays not only against the run but in coverage consistently despite the lack of ideal athleticism.

If we take a wideout, I would love for us to get Robiskie. He is exactly what we need because he is super at working the middle, and if he can do that Moss and Welker be that more dangerous down the field and underneath respectively. He has great size, athleticism, super hands, and is tough.

I know a lot of Pats fans want this draft to be defense defense defense, and trust me I am one of them, but we still need another receiver. I think Scott's newest mock is an ideal day 1 for us.

Preaching it!.

I'm a bit low on Sinim after the post-season. He just didn't play the way he did during the season. Still, I think we've all be underselling him a bit and while I would prefer Matthews after he proved the athleticism concerns simply weren't all they were cracked up to be or the natural pass rushing ability of Larry English, Sintim would be a great pick as well. Matthews shouldn't be underestimated either. Pete Carroll is in love with the guy and really regrets not giving him a fair shot until the middle of the season. He's every bit the all around player Sintim is and probably has just as much of an in to the Patriots organization as anyone. Higher bust factor, but I think it's worth the risk.


The Delmas pick is worth it. Sanders will be an expensive backup, but that's what he is ultimately; a very quality backup for a championship caliber team. Delmas plays the game hard as anyone and would look great opposite Merriweather. I'm really intrigued about playing Brandon at SS and drafting Rashad Johnson though. I think that would really upgrade the playmaking abilities of our secondary and really make a difference in terms of generating turnovers. Still, Delmas is a great selection and a damn good value at that point.

Robiskie is a guy who I've been hoping to land lower, but the extra second really gives us some flexibility. He would fit in perfect with us and could really make an impact playing Robin to Randy Moss' Batman and letting Welker sneak around in the slot like he did a couple years ago. Really good all around game. Not an explosive player, but we don't need explosiveness at that position with Moss having a few good years left.

Byrd is amazing. Really love that pick. I've been getting higher and higher on this guy lately and Scott's piece or him really has me believing outside of Jenkins, he might actually be the best corner for us. Wouldn't mind seeing him get a couple more interceptions for us year to year ;)

Overall, life is good if you're a Patriots fan with the draft picks we have. Scott's mock really has me excited for next season and makes me happy that we've been pretty accurate with the things we've been kicking around on this forum.

FlyingElvis
03-10-2009, 12:38 PM
That would be a nice draft for sure!! It would be perfect for me, since I still say a CB should not be top priority, but with the 4th pick in the top 62 I really would not mind. 2 guys from football families would be great.

ElectricEye
03-12-2009, 09:40 PM
James Laurinaitis blows and he doesn't fit out scheme at all. There. I went there.

Seriously though, he doesn't fit our scheme at all and I'm seeing one too many mocks having us take him in the first round. Can someone tell me why he would be a good fit? I mean he might profile well mentally, but physically he just isn't capable of standing up to the more physical style 3-4 ILB's have to play. Don't get it.

Don Vito
03-12-2009, 10:15 PM
James Laurinaitis blows and he doesn't fit out scheme at all. There. I went there.

Seriously though, he doesn't fit our scheme at all and I'm seeing one too many mocks having us take him in the first round. Can someone tell me why he would be a good fit? I mean he might profile well mentally, but physically he just isn't capable of standing up to the more physical style 3-4 ILB's have to play. Don't get it.

Every time I see JL to the Pats in a mock I pretty much try to say that as sugar coated as I can, usually something along the lines of "right position but I'm not sold on him in our scheme". I think he could be successful as a tampa 2 MLB maybe but he doesn't offer anything to 3-4 teams. He isn't as bad as some people on this site say he is, but he is not a 3-4 ILB. Maualuga, on the other hand, I think is a good fit for our defense and if he were available I wouldn't mind us taking him. Frantz Joseph is a guy I really like later on in the draft, former BC LB who transfered to FAU. He is a football player.

ElectricEye
03-12-2009, 11:47 PM
I just really, really don't get the pick. We need a thumper type and JL would spend a lot of time on his backside if he were playing for us. He'll probably spend a lot of time there no matter what team he ends up playing for, but in a 3-4 specifically he would get absolutely mauled. MLB isn't even THAT big of a need. We can get by on Bruschi is we absolutely had to(although it would be unfortunate). Guyton getting a shot wouldn't be the worst thing in the world either.

It would be rather stupid not to pick up someone to play opposite Mayo, but the guys who fit that profile can be had in the third round and onward. Jaspar Brinkley is the guy I've locked onto personally. He's absolutely made to be a 3-4 thumper and he's looking like he did pre injury athletically and in terms of conditioning. Appleby is another guy to keep an eye on late late and he probably wouldn't start for us, but he still has some upside left and is experienced at the position already.

FlyingElvis
03-13-2009, 12:03 PM
JL seems to have the same knock from everyone - he's a Tampa2 MLB. Pass. Plus he's a *uckeye. ;)


If he slid to late 2nd it might be worth it, but there definitely seem to be guys that would fit better and can be picked later.

nepg
03-13-2009, 12:20 PM
Honestly, I think the Pats have put themselves in a position, through FA moves, to go for a homerun with every pick in this draft. I think they're going to take the highest upside guys they can with every pick... Really think this is going to be a much different draft than they've had in recent years. Very few "safe" picks...
________
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proshoota25
03-15-2009, 01:30 PM
Honestly, I think the Pats have put themselves in a position, through FA moves, to go for a homerun with every pick in this draft. I think they're going to take the highest upside guys they can with every pick... Really think this is going to be a much different draft than they've had in recent years. Very few "safe" picks...

yeah i could see them doing that. boom or bust picks, because we do have most of our starters already set and there is no clear position need other than an OLB

RWills
03-15-2009, 01:31 PM
So far thru the mock I have going this is how the picks laid out for us.

1 - MLB - Rey Malauga - The perfect compliment to Mayo, He will be a difference maker and a huge thumper leaving Mayo to go sideline to sideline, should be excellent on inside blitzes
2 - OLB - Conor Barwin - Doesnt have to start with AT/Woods/Crable, but we will see a lot of him on 3rd downs and on ST and offense, until he develops his game as a starter
2 - SS - Patrick Chung - Has the football IQ BB loves, could replace Sanders by midseason, will be a ST standout
2 - OL - Jamon Meredith - Can play all OL spots but center could find a home at RG or RT and eventually replace Light
3 - FB - Tony Fiammetta - Perfect fit, think Heath Evans, but better speed, better blocker, can also catch pass and pass block, will play ST as well and our goaline back.

Waiting for supp picks to continue

nepg
03-16-2009, 08:02 AM
Dude that predicts the comp picks has the Pats with a 3rd, 5th, & 6th this year...
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proshoota25
03-17-2009, 10:15 PM
My latest patriots mock::

Check out my sig! haa

ElectricEye
03-17-2009, 10:31 PM
Not bad at all. I prefer Matthews to Sintim and Byrd to Francies, but that's actually pretty nice.

Nalej
03-17-2009, 11:22 PM
ProShoota,

I like your mock but I just don't see Rey Rey lasting that long.
Bump up everyone up one draft choice and try and pick up Gilbert/Kruger or Loadholt
or BPA to fill in the last spot would be a success, IMO

Oh... and IF for some insane reason Rey Rey was available that your MOCK would be better then I ever invisioned.

Good stuff

proshoota25
03-17-2009, 11:30 PM
ProShoota,

I like your mock but I just don't see Rey Rey lasting that long.
Bump up everyone up one draft choice and try and pick up Gilbert/Kruger or Loadholt
or BPA to fill in the last spot would be a success, IMO

Oh... and IF for some insane reason Rey Rey was available that your MOCK would be better then I ever invisioned.

Good stuff

yeah i dont think he will be there either, but i do think he is sliding down the draft boards and maybe there is a chance he will be there at 23. or who knows, maybe they even trade up a few spots with some of our second rounders to secure him, doubt that though.

ElectricEye
03-17-2009, 11:33 PM
I think there's a chance of Rey being there contingent upon what the Chargers do. Don't really see anyone between us and them that would really want him, besides maybe Detroit...but they have bigger needs.

ElectricEye
03-18-2009, 08:32 AM
With all the recent talk about drafting an offensive linemen, who's your guy?

I agree with the sentiment that drafting a guy for depth and too sure up certain holes along the line. It's defiantly on the bottom of my list in terms of our top tier needs, but it's pretty legit.

Anyway, most people here seem to favor drafting Alex Mack at some point. Wouldn't be a bad pick, but I think ultimately tackle is a bigger need. I can live with Neal's age situation for one more draft(assuming we have the inside track on Mankins resigning). What I might not be able to live with is consistently bad play at the right tackle spot. Nick Kaczur has been pretty terrible for us for a few years and upgrading him wouldn't be hard. I would love to bring in a right tackle type, especially one who might be able replace Light one day. With all that said, I think the pick is kind of obvious. I favored Loadholt early in the process after his impressive Senior Bowl performance, but Jamon Meredith has the versatility to solve any issue we have along the line right now and the upside to develop into a really good right tackle at the very least. He's also completely capable of playing guard should we need one next year. I think he would be an excellent selection with one of our second rounders if things break right in terms of guys we land.

Nalej
03-18-2009, 09:55 AM
With all the recent talk about drafting an offensive linemen, who's your guy?

I agree with the sentiment that drafting a guy for depth and too sure up certain holes along the line. It's defiantly on the bottom of my list in terms of our top tier needs, but it's pretty legit.

Anyway, most people here seem to favor drafting Alex Mack at some point. Wouldn't be a bad pick, but I think ultimately tackle is a bigger need. I can live with Neal's age situation for one more draft(assuming we have the inside track on Mankins resigning). What I might not be able to live with is consistently bad play at the right tackle spot. Nick Kaczur has been pretty terrible for us for a few years and upgrading him wouldn't be hard. I would love to bring in a right tackle type, especially one who might be able replace Light one day. With all that said, I think the pick is kind of obvious. I favored Loadholt early in the process after his impressive Senior Bowl performance, but Jamon Meredith has the versatility to solve any issue we have along the line right now and the upside to develop into a really good right tackle at the very least. He's also completely capable of playing guard should we need one next year. I think he would be an excellent selection with one of our second rounders if things break right in terms of guys we land.


The bolded are exactly how I feel. Alex Mack isn't a bad player but he's not what we need, IMO.
A RT to replace that got awful N. Kaczur. I like Loadholt but I honestly don't know much about Meredith.
Either way, like previously stated... It won't be hard to upgrade.

Bigburt63
03-18-2009, 12:47 PM
I disagree. Kazcur has been average, Neal is above-average when healthy, but he is getting up there in age and cannot stay healthy, plus his contract is up next year. Kazcur and Light, I believe, are both signed for longer than next year, and since Neal is having trouble staying healthy to begin with, a guard type is more of a need.

ElectricEye
03-18-2009, 08:57 PM
Still, it's not hard at all to find an upgrade for Kazcur. We tried to do that with Ryan O'Callaghan already. Kazcur certainly isn't bad, but I wouldn't call him average. Neal is a real solid starter but you're probably right about his days coming to an end. Still, guards are a lot easier to find than tackles. If we were going to draft a linemen, I think it would be a mistake to go with anyone but Meredith. It's almost too perfect.

Quick report.

Positives:Long armed and quick footed. Despite having 34 1/2" arms(Andre Smith has the longest at almost 36", Eugene Monroe had 34", Jason Smith measured in at close to 34" and Oher measured in at 33 and 1/2") he still managed to throw up 31 reps, tied for 4th best among offensive linemen at the combine, far and away better than his other long limbed counterparts. He ran a very fast 40 as well, even though we all know how much that matters. He's also a pretty slick athlete and will have no trouble moving his feet and dealing with speed at the next level. When it comes to actual blocking, he can be devastating with his initial punch at times and can really use his strength to his advantage. He also has the ability to get to the second level and maul down linebacker without much of a problem. The main thing that makes me him intriguing to me for us is that he's played every position along the South Carolina line with the exception of center and hasn't had much of a problem dealing with the issue of position switches either. His skills project him as a tackle, but he would have an easy time sliding into the starting guard role right away for somebody. He probably still has some upside left.

Negatives:Has trouble sustaining blocks and let's his man come into him a bit too much. He's a little raw and isn't a particularly brilliant technician in the Eugene Monroe mold. Doesn't have ideal size measuring in at 305 pounds at the combine, but his strength more than makes up for it and he actually has a bit of room to fill out his 6'4+ frame. Had a suspension issue early in the season which led to him being booted from his role as LT and playing LG for the rest of the season. He's a bit inconsistent at times as well. The main thing that's wrong with Meredith that's preventing him from being viewed as well as the top flier type prospect his physical skills would indicate is that he's can play more than a bit soft at times and he may not have a killer instinct.

There's some downsides to his game for sure, but his talent level and versatility are something we should be looking into. Doesn't hurt that he can probably be had for the lowest of our second rounders depending on how things break either. Scott did an excellent report on him recently and there's a nice video of him by the guys at DraftGuysTV I advise you to all check out.

RWills
03-18-2009, 10:01 PM
From what I heard Meridith has bad character meaning not 100% motivated and not totally in love with game

ElectricEye
03-18-2009, 10:27 PM
From what I heard Meridith has bad character meaning not 100% motivated and not totally in love with game

Graduated with a 3.7 GPA. Really bright kid from what I've read. I wouldn't say he has character issues at all. The suspension this year was because of a medical redshirt issue from way back in 2004. That's where most of that talk is coming from, most likely.

The love of the game part might be legit. There's no way to tell with those things though.

Nalej
03-18-2009, 11:45 PM
If that's Merideth's scouting report-then he doesn't sound too bad.
Can fill in at G and OT. I like it. Why not.

ElectricEye
03-19-2009, 12:22 AM
I'm a bit high on him, but I'm in love with his tools. If it hadn't been for that suspension, I don't think people would be talking about William Beatty as much.

RWills
03-19-2009, 05:09 AM
Graduated with a 3.7 GPA. Really bright kid from what I've read. I wouldn't say he has character issues at all. The suspension this year was because of a medical redshirt issue from way back in 2004. That's where most of that talk is coming from, most likely.

The love of the game part might be legit. There's no way to tell with those things though.

I am reading this from Pro Football Draft guide. I didnt hear about anything about it till I read it.

'Not Tough, Lacks Passion for the game and is motivated for the wrong reasons. Locker Room Lawyer. Does not like to condition his body. To many mental lapses show up in his game for as smart as he is.'

word for word

Bigburt63
03-23-2009, 08:10 PM
We received 3 compensation picks. 3rd for Samuel, 5th for Stallworth, and 6th for Randall G ay. Its the first compensation pick for Samuel, 97th overall I believe.

ElectricEye
03-23-2009, 10:26 PM
Six picks in the top one hundred? Oh hell yes.

FlyingElvis
03-24-2009, 08:51 AM
I have always loved the draft and look forward to it each year. But the 6 picks in the top 100 has me incredibly excited this year.


33 days and counting . . .

hannah73
03-24-2009, 09:17 AM
alex Mack is a consideration, although you'd have to draft him high.

Fenuki Tupou would be a good G/OT pick. Road grader with great feet. Strong enough to root out big DT, unlike Koppen.

Guys like Sintim, I don't know what they bring that Crable, Redd, Woods, don't already have. Everette Brown is a pretty amazing pass rusher, gets guys off balance and then is by them in an instant. Watch his video, I know it's a little misleading, but it's amazing.

Ayers might be gone early but he'd be an 3-4 OLB who could stand up at the point of attack and also be a good pass rusher, although he might not be quick enough to be great covering backs.

Look at Michael Johnson's video. He's unstoppable at times, don't know why he has such a bad rap. I thought I read the pats were interested in him.

FlyingElvis
03-24-2009, 09:45 AM
I don't see Woods as a solid starter. He is a good back up and special teamer. I am banking on Crable to pan out as a #1 OLB, but Redd is a long shot. So another OLB w/pass rush skills is a must, imo. With the depth in this draft it makes sense to get somebody there, and the best pass rush guys will go early.

On the other hand - and completely against my sig - if the Rey were to fall to NE at 23 I would be less concerned w/the OLB spot. Thomas on one side & Crable/Woods/Redd/Guyton on the other would be fine.

But our pass rush was not good enough last year and I think adding some skill there is a smart move considering the depth in this draft and the number of picks we have.

ElectricEye
03-24-2009, 10:45 AM
What do you know what Crable/Woods/Redd bring to the table? None of them have played that much. Crable didn't play at all and Vince Redd/Woods aren't exactly guys I plan on seeing starting any time soon. Sintim would be an upgrade over every one of those guys with the exception of perhaps Crable if he were to get his ass in gear.

hannah73
03-24-2009, 10:48 AM
What do you know what Crable/Woods/Redd bring to the table? None of them have played that much. Crable didn't play at all and Vince Redd/Woods aren't exactly guys I plan on seeing starting any time soon. Sintim would be an upgrade over every one of those guys with the exception of perhaps Crable if he were to get his ass in gear.


How do you know? Crable was a star coming out and Redd and Woods were pretty good, I know both were undrafted but they've shown promise. Sintim might be just another guy on the pile. What is so special about him? I haven't seen anything. In his videos he looks like a big stiff guy.

Same with Barwin. He's so great people want him at #23. How is he any better or different than Crable?

Bigburt63
03-24-2009, 11:09 AM
How do you know? Crable was a star coming out and Redd and Woods were pretty good, I know both were undrafted but they've shown promise. Sintim might be just another guy on the pile. What is so special about him? I haven't seen anything. In his videos he looks like a big stiff guy.

Same with Barwin. He's so great people want him at #23. How is he any better or different than Crable?

Ok, so let's say that Crable stays healthy, plays alot this year and is very effective. The other OLB spot could be manned by Thomas, or Redd (who the coaches are very high on),or Woods (who started before he got hurt last year, although he was not very effective), or TBC (who was not that good when he was here before). The ILB spots would be Mayo and Bruschi/Guyton. Thomas could move inside, leaving Crable, Redd, Woods and TBC on the outside. I am high on Crable and Redd, but who is to say they pan out and are very effective.

Getting a guy like Sintim, who played in the 3-4 all through college, would have Sintim, Crable, and Thomas on the outside, with Guyton, Bruschi, and Mayo on the inside, leaving TBC, Redd, and Woods as depth (With Thomas being able to play both inside and outside).

Like it or not, we need to upgrade our pass rush. With the beastly front 3 there is no reason we should not be getting to the QB alot. Woods wasn't overly effective, and neither was TBC when he was here. Crable and Redd are unknowns. We need some sort of LB in this draft.

Don Vito
03-24-2009, 11:52 AM
Personally, I think the best case scenario at 23 is Maualuga. We really don't have any true ILB option we can depend on now besides Mayo. Adalius could play there but I'd love to see us get Maualuga and have he and Mayo as a future tandem. We still need another outside guy in my opinion, Crable has potential as do Woods and Redd but if a guy like Ayers/Sintim/Clay Matthews were available at 34 it would be smart to take him. We really could use another safety too, we could either take a roaming FS like Rashad Johnson and play Meriweather at SS or take a SS like Willie Moore and play Meriweather at free. I personally think Johnson or Delmas would be the best fits. Finally, even though we added a few vets, I still would love for us to go after a corner day 1, Jairus Byrd being my guy.

Needless to say, I think we need to go defense day 1. An OL is a possibility as well as WR possibly, but our defense has been our achilles heel lately and we need to address it. We have an elite DL, if we put some more talent behind them I think a super bowl is very likely.

Babylon
03-24-2009, 02:21 PM
How do you know? Crable was a star coming out and Redd and Woods were pretty good, I know both were undrafted but they've shown promise. Sintim might be just another guy on the pile. What is so special about him? I haven't seen anything. In his videos he looks like a big stiff guy.

Same with Barwin. He's so great people want him at #23. How is he any better or different than Crable?


No comparison as athletes, there is about a foot differance in both the vertical and broadjump between these two and Crable doesnt have near the speed of Barwin either. My guess is by draft time Barwin will be gone by the Pats pick so it's probably not an issue anyway.

Bigburt63
03-24-2009, 07:04 PM
Besides, are we really comfortable with Thomas (maybe at ILB), Crable, TBC, Woods, and Redd at OLB? Thomas is very effective when healthy, Woods and TBC have yet to show they can consistently get to the QB, Crable is an unknown as is Redd. Plus, Guyton, Mayo and Bruschi at ILB leave some depth to be desired, and if Thomas is to be used there, then we need more depth at the very least at OLB.

ElectricEye
03-24-2009, 09:35 PM
Personally, I think the best case scenario at 23 is Maualuga. We really don't have any true ILB option we can depend on now besides Mayo. Adalius could play there but I'd love to see us get Maualuga and have he and Mayo as a future tandem. We still need another outside guy in my opinion, Crable has potential as do Woods and Redd but if a guy like Ayers/Sintim/Clay Matthews were available at 34 it would be smart to take him. We really could use another safety too, we could either take a roaming FS like Rashad Johnson and play Meriweather at SS or take a SS like Willie Moore and play Meriweather at free. I personally think Johnson or Delmas would be the best fits. Finally, even though we added a few vets, I still would love for us to go after a corner day 1, Jairus Byrd being my guy.

Needless to say, I think we need to go defense day 1. An OL is a possibility as well as WR possibly, but our defense has been our achilles heel lately and we need to address it. We have an elite DL, if we put some more talent behind them I think a super bowl is very likely.
Pretty much this.

Hannah is entirely overestimating how good Crable/Redd are. I won't even mention Woods. We know what he is, and it ain't anything special. Crable and Redd are unknowns. If Crable was such a star coming out, why did he last until the third round? Dude has no lower body strength to speak of and has questionable pass rushing skills. He has some impressive physical gifts, but he was a raw one year wonder in college. He didn't even play last year and you're already saying you're comfortable with him starting? Does that make sense? Same with Redd except even more so. Don't know what we have there. We could have something special, but it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Redd out of the league in a few years.

Sintim is a great pass rusher with developed skills. He would adapt very well to our scheme and could come in and start right away. He's not the quickest guy in the world, but he certainly isn't entirely stiff. Pretty decent athlete, actually.

Barwin is another animal. He's a freaky athlete with scary potential. Scary downsides as well. He gets by entirely of athleticism and a nasty demeanor at this point and could be controlled very easily by an experienced tackle. Still might be worth the risk just due to his ruthless playing style and speed.

I'm not sure about Barwin, but Sintim and Matthews would be instant upgrades over Crable. In a similar league talent wise, but nowhere near as raw and both of those guys would be capable starting right away. Rey is another interesting possibility. If he were to drop, his talent level is significant enough that it would be worth it to pair him up with Mayo. They compliment each others game perfectly. I don't see ILB as quite as big of a need, but it would be worth it on talent alone.

nepg
03-25-2009, 08:21 AM
I think you're underestimating Woods and forgetting what TBC can do in the Patriots' offense. I think they could draft an OLB early because they don't have anyone who's 100% proven (personally, I'd take Matthews or Cushing if they're there at #23). I don't think they worry about ILB, though. Thomas was very good inside, and they have a few other guys in Alexander, Guyton, and Crable who are capable of playing inside.

The Pats' big needs are OL (RG, RT), S('s), and high-potential players.
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Don Vito
03-25-2009, 08:27 AM
Crable is strictly an outside guy and I don't think we should be banking on Alexander or Guyton to be reliable starters. Guyton showed a lot as a rookie UDFA but he is more of a ST/depth guy, same goes for Alexander. I think if Maualuga is available it would be very wise for us to take him, he and Mayo would be a great tandem inside for the future. That leaves Adalius and a host of unproven yet talented guys on the outside. TBC is nothing special, he didn't do much here and did very little in SF. I wouldn't be suprised if we took 2 LBs day 1 but we also need a safety badly. OL and CB are needs too, but you really never know with this staff. We very well could take a lineman in the first round if the staff falls in love with someone like they did with Mankins.

nepg
03-25-2009, 09:19 AM
I'd be in support of taking an OT at #23. I think it's a very real possibility.

I wasn't saying Guyton and Alexander should start, I'm saying they can play the position. They're good depth guys and can be used in a rotation. Adalius Thomas can start at ILB (and I think it's his better position in NE's 3-4 anyway), Crable was projected as either an OLB or ILB in a 3-4.

Thomas can play 4 more years at ILB. It's not something that should be looked at on the first day.
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FlyingElvis
03-25-2009, 09:28 AM
If Maualuga is there at 23 it would be crazy of NE to pass on the perfect compliment to Mayo.

But I definitely agree that we may see OT at 23. Mostly b/c nobody is picking that to happen, which is a sure sign it's very likely. lol

I do agree w/Electric about the OLBs on the roster. There is a wealth of potential and raw talent with little true experience. At pick 23 or 34 NE can get a player with eqaul or better talent/potential and more experience (ie years player) in similar roles.

TNPatsFan
03-25-2009, 09:41 AM
I'd be in support of taking an OT at #23. I think it's a very real possibility.

I wasn't saying Guyton and Alexander should start, I'm saying they can play the position. They're good depth guys and can be used in a rotation. Adalius Thomas can start at ILB (and I think it's his better position in NE's 3-4 anyway), Crable was projected as either an OLB or ILB in a 3-4.

Thomas can play 4 more years at ILB. It's not something that should be looked at on the first day.

I totally disagree. Thomas has been way better at OLB for the Pats than he was when he was playing ILB. I don't want him inside. It would take away what is right now our best pass rusher and putting him in a position he doesn't excel at. And Crable has never been projected as an ILB.

Bottom line is they have only three ILB's on the roster right now (I consider Alexander a special teams only guy, I don't want him playing defense cuz he's terrible), Tedy Bruschi should not be starting any more, and Guyton is probably not ready to be a starter. I think ILB is just about the biggest need the Pats have and if there is one guy in this draft that would be the one perfect pick for the Pats it would be Maualuga.

Don Vito
03-25-2009, 10:15 AM
I totally disagree. Thomas has been way better at OLB for the Pats than he was when he was playing ILB. I don't want him inside. It would take away what is right now our best pass rusher and putting him in a position he doesn't excel at. And Crable has never been projected as an ILB.

Bottom line is they have only three ILB's on the roster right now (I consider Alexander a special teams only guy, I don't want him playing defense cuz he's terrible), Tedy Bruschi should not be starting any more, and Guyton is probably not ready to be a starter. I think ILB is just about the biggest need the Pats have and if there is one guy in this draft that would be the one perfect pick for the Pats it would be Maualuga.

Exactly. Thomas could play inside or outside but we need him outside because he is the only proven option there, if Maualuga is available we should take him because we would have a great young tandem of ILBs. We either need one of the young OLBs we have to step up or we could look at another guy. Crable is a pure OLB, he is not an inside guy at least not at this stage of his career. Woods has shown some flashes, especially late in the year, but he is not a consistent option right now. Vince Redd is another skilled guy who is unproven.

We have a lot of holes in our LB corps and we still need at least one DB as well as offensive linemen. Those are our biggest needs and we could still use some DL depth, a young WR, a FB, maybe a TE, and possibly a 3rd down back type to groom to replace Faulk. Good thing we stockpiled so many picks becuase we will probably need some rookies to step up this year and play early even though BB is usually against that unless it is a stud like Mayo. This draft is going to be the youth movement we have needed for a while.

TNPatsFan
03-25-2009, 10:28 AM
I did forget to mention Bo Ruud, so that's another ILB we have on the roster, but he spent the whole season on IR and was only a 6th round pick to begin with so expectations for him have to be limited.

A lot depends on how BB feels about the OLB's he has now. There are four young OLB's on the roster (Crable, Woods, Redd, and TBC) so it's possible he won't take one early unless he really thinks there is one that is clearly better than what he already has. I'd love to see them get a great young pass rushing OLB, but they don't need one in my opinion the way they need an ILB. And the idea of teaming Mayo and another stud ILB together sounds like a great move. I'd love to see them get Rey if they can. I don't like Laurenaitis. I do actually like the idea of drafting either Matthews or Sintim and giving them the opportunity to play both outside and inside.

Bigburt63
03-25-2009, 11:06 AM
I did forget to mention Bo Ruud, so that's another ILB we have on the roster, but he spent the whole season on IR and was only a 6th round pick to begin with so expectations for him have to be limited.

A lot depends on how BB feels about the OLB's he has now. There are four young OLB's on the roster (Crable, Woods, Redd, and TBC) so it's possible he won't take one early unless he really thinks there is one that is clearly better than what he already has. I'd love to see them get a great young pass rushing OLB, but they don't need one in my opinion the way they need an ILB. And the idea of teaming Mayo and another stud ILB together sounds like a great move. I'd love to see them get Rey if they can. I don't like Laurenaitis. I do actually like the idea of drafting either Matthews or Sintim and giving them the opportunity to play both outside and inside.

TBC will be 29 at the start of the season, and had 12.5 sacks in 4 years with the patriots, 5.5 in his last year. He was not great, I don't know where some fans (not necessarily you) are coming up with this beastly image of TBC in NE. He was ok, but could certainly be upgraded.

TNPatsFan
03-25-2009, 11:17 AM
TBC will be 29 at the start of the season, and had 12.5 sacks in 4 years with the patriots, 5.5 in his last year. He was not great, I don't know where some fans (not necessarily you) are coming up with this beastly image of TBC in NE. He was ok, but could certainly be upgraded.

Oh I agree completely. When they signed him back I thought "why?". The TBC experiment failed once already we don't need him back and I'm hoping he doesn't even make the team. But BB must like him, so that's why I wonder if maybe he feels he's got 4 OLB's under 30 and is content to go with them.

Bigburt63
03-25-2009, 11:39 AM
Oh I agree completely. When they signed him back I thought "why?". The TBC experiment failed once already we don't need him back and I'm hoping he doesn't even make the team. But BB must like him, so that's why I wonder if maybe he feels he's got 4 OLB's under 30 and is content to go with them.

That is a distinct possibility. I just feel that we need to add an elite talent to our LB corps, be it at ILB or OLB. Guyton could develop into a good ILB, but I don't think he is quite ready yet, and Bruschi has lost more than just a step.TBC is ok, but certainly not great, Thomas is great outside, Mayo is a stud inside. Crable and Redd could develop into great OLB, but its all potential at this point.

ElectricEye
03-25-2009, 12:14 PM
A lot depends on how BB feels about the OLB's he has now. There are four young OLB's on the roster (Crable, Woods, Redd, and TBC) so it's possible he won't take one early unless he really thinks there is one that is clearly better than what he already has. I'd love to see them get a great young pass rushing OLB, but they don't need one in my opinion the way they need an ILB. And the idea of teaming Mayo and another stud ILB together sounds like a great move. I'd love to see them get Rey if they can. I don't like Laurenaitis. I do actually like the idea of drafting either Matthews or Sintim and giving them the opportunity to play both outside and inside.

Most of that rests on Crable then, because Woods, Redd, and TBC are not guys I would be comfortable with starting. Woods is more a depth player and Redd needs a few more years although it is a good sign he made the team last year off the practice squad. TBC might be a good situational pass rusher for us again and then again he might be cut a few weeks into the season. We have good depth at that position and I wouldn't mind seeing Crable and Redd getting playing time, but thus far they haven't demonstrated anything that would make me think they could be productive fulltime starters. Hopefully Redd is the gem we all hope he is because he's monstrous physically, but we still can't count on that. Crable has a lot of talent, but he still has some maturing to do physically. There's some legit reasons why he wouldn't pan out either. I think we're all kind of looking for him to be something he isn't ready to be next year. We've also have to consider AT. He's getting up there in age and he doesn't exactly look like the type of guy who's going to age well. How many good years do we have left from him? Two? Three? Are any of those years going to be healthy years? I think with that in mind, we need to find a fulltime starter at OLB in this draft. There's pretty good depth at that position and the extra second rounder we picked up from Kansas City kind of allows us a bit of room to play around. In all likelyhood, one of Matthews, English, or Sintim will be there for us at the top of the second. All of those guys would be able to step in and play at a higher level than Crable and Redd right away. The other option that's probably going to be there is Barwin, who a lot of people her like. I'm starting to come around, but I doubt he would be able to do anything meaningful for us besides running fast towards the quarterback for the first few years of his career. Might be extremely valuable down the line...but then again he might never fully materialize either. He would be more of a luxury type pick than the others.

As far as inside linebackers go, Rey would be excellent, but there's a chance he won't fall all the way down to 23. He's a lot more talented than that...he's just kind of fallen out of vogue a bit. The draw with him is how well he would pair up with Mayo. Mayo would be capable of doing a lot of the coverage work and letting Maualuga be a bully at the line of scrimmage. If we don't get Maualuga(Jaspar Brinkley!), I think we have to go outside and get that pass rusher we've been talking about. The value is right for most of the guys at #23 for a linebacker and the linebackers left at that point are probably the best first round type talents left on the board if the draft goes the way most people think it will. Certainly the most talented of the guys we can use.

Overall, I think we could use a bit of a talent surge at both inside and outside linebacker. I could see a scenario where three years down the line, Mayo is the only guy from our linebacking corps left on the team. That's never a good thing.

FlyingElvis
03-25-2009, 12:29 PM
At this point I'm thinking it will be Rey, OT or a trade down from #23. Possibly a move up if Rey is still on the board heading into the 16 - 20 range b/c SD, NYJ, TB and Detroit are all possiblilities for Maualuga.

So if he's gone and no top ranked OT has fallen to 23 I will be expecting a trade down. This is assuming 3 OLBs are still available - Sintim, Cushing, English (maybe Barwin) - with the gain being an extra pick next year.

I'm still hoping for Rey one way or the other - dumb luck or an upward trade. The problem, like Electric mentioned, is that he's good enough to be a top 10 pick. The big question is who takes him, as I can see any team from Cleveland (#5) down needing a solid MLB. Any team from 5 - 20 could use him with the exceptions being SF, Buff, NO, & Chicago. (Working off memory, anyway, which doesn't always serve me well)

Bigburt63
03-25-2009, 12:41 PM
At this point I'm thinking it will be Rey, OT or a trade down from #23. Possibly a move up if Rey is still on the board heading into the 16 - 20 range b/c SD, NYJ, TB and Detroit are all possiblilities for Maualuga.

So if he's gone and no top ranked OT has fallen to 23 I will be expecting a trade down. This is assuming 3 OLBs are still available - Sintim, Cushing, English (maybe Barwin) - with the gain being an extra pick next year.

I'm still hoping for Rey one way or the other - dumb luck or an upward trade. The problem, like Electric mentioned, is that he's good enough to be a top 10 pick. The big question is who takes him, as I can see any team from Cleveland (#5) down needing a solid MLB. Any team from 5 - 20 could use him with the exceptions being SF, Buff, NO, & Chicago. (Working off memory, anyway, which doesn't always serve me well)

There could be the surprising pick of an OL, although its so surprising now that its really not that surprising. My guess would be safety however. CB needs, as far as an immediate impact starter, are taken care of with Bodden and Springs, with Hobbs, Wilhite and Wheatley and Richardson all in reserve. For safety, Meriweather is a legitimate starter, Sanders is ok, but could be upgraded, and is probably better served as a situational backup (although if a safety is drafted and is not ready yet, Sanders could be a stop gap until the rookie is ready to start).

At this point I think it's just a pipedream that Rey Rey falls to 23, albeit a great one ;) . We need some LB help, a safety badly IMO, and some OL depth/future starter, or if a top guy somehow fell, a replacement (i.e. Oher or someone falling would replace Kazcur and then eventually take over for Light, who is still solid).

nepg
03-25-2009, 12:43 PM
TBC will be 29 at the start of the season, and had 12.5 sacks in 4 years with the patriots, 5.5 in his last year. He was not great, I don't know where some fans (not necessarily you) are coming up with this beastly image of TBC in NE. He was ok, but could certainly be upgraded.

He really didn't get a chance to show what he could do until late in that last season though. He was a beast, and he was absolutely abusing the left side of the Colts' offensive line. Got held so many times. So many missed calls that game...Grade A hosery.

With the 49ers, that whole team sucked. I feel that there's grounds to be pretty optimistic about TBC returning and being a very good pass rusher for the Patriots.
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ElectricEye
03-25-2009, 12:45 PM
At this point I'm thinking it will be Rey, OT or a trade down from #23. Possibly a move up if Rey is still on the board heading into the 16 - 20 range b/c SD, NYJ, TB and Detroit are all possiblilities for Maualuga.

So if he's gone and no top ranked OT has fallen to 23 I will be expecting a trade down. This is assuming 3 OLBs are still available - Sintim, Cushing, English (maybe Barwin) - with the gain being an extra pick next year.

I'm still hoping for Rey one way or the other - dumb luck or an upward trade. The problem, like Electric mentioned, is that he's good enough to be a top 10 pick. The big question is who takes him, as I can see any team from Cleveland (#5) down needing a solid MLB. Any team from 5 - 20 could use him with the exceptions being SF, Buff, NO, & Chicago. (Working off memory, anyway, which doesn't always serve me well)

The thing we're banking on if we're hoping for Rey is value. Traditionally, unless they're coming off a monstrous season with an amazing combine, you don't pick a ILB top fifteen. Mayo was an exception to that, but he did have a good season and a great combine. Rey didn't. He might fall into the traditional ILB range because of that. The number one thing we should hope for is a tackle falling to Detroit at #20....but it looks like they're taking Jason Smith anyway. Also, the Chargers taking Tyson Jackson or a DE would be big as well. Those are probably our biggest threats.

Bigburt63
03-25-2009, 12:47 PM
He really didn't get a chance to show what he could do until late in that last season though. He was a beast, and he was absolutely abusing the left side of the Colts' offensive line. Got held so many times. So many missed calls that game...Grade A hosery.

With the 49ers, that whole team sucked. I feel that there's grounds to be pretty optimistic about TBC returning and being a very good pass rusher for the Patriots.

I wish I could share your optimism, but I just can't. He could be solid, if unspectacular, for us, but I don't see him being any better than a rookie we could draft, or even Crable or Redd (again, all based on potential). I'd rather see those two get a shot over TBC.

FlyingElvis
03-25-2009, 12:58 PM
TBC is good for long yardage situations as a pass rusher and nothing more. If he were more than that NE would not have let him go to SF in the first place.

The thing we're banking on if we're hoping for Rey is value. Traditionally, unless they're coming off a monstrous season with an amazing combine, you don't pick a ILB top fifteen. Mayo was an exception to that, but he did have a good season and a great combine. Rey didn't. He might fall into the traditional ILB range because of that. The number one thing we should hope for is a tackle falling to Detroit at #20....but it looks like they're taking Jason Smith anyway. Also, the Chargers taking Tyson Jackson or a DE would be big as well. Those are probably our biggest threats.

This hits the issue right on the head. There will be a run on DE/OLB pass rushers and that will make all the difference for where Rey falls. Will the depth in this class at OT & DE/OLB make them all slide a little b/c teams will think "I can get one later" or will they all go in a streak broken by the handful of studs at other positions?

Bigburt63
03-25-2009, 01:01 PM
TBC is good for long yardage situations as a pass rusher and nothing more. If he were more than that NE would not have let him go to SF in the first place.



This hits the issue right on the head. There will be a run on DE/OLB pass rushers and that will make all the difference for where Rey falls. Will the depth in this class at OT & DE/OLB make them all slide a little b/c teams will think "I can get one later" or will they all go in a streak broken by the handful of studs at other positions?

Which then begs the question, if there is a run at OLB/DE, do we try and trade up or reach for one, or do we stay put and hope Rey falls into our laps?

FlyingElvis
03-25-2009, 01:11 PM
^ Exactly. And, if Rey falls to 23, does selecting him cost us a chance at one of the better OLBs?? Damned opportunity costs!!



edit: can't plus rep you for that . . . stupid site tells me to spread some around first. lol

Bigburt63
03-25-2009, 01:17 PM
^ Exactly. And, if Rey falls to 23, does selecting him cost us a chance at one of the better OLBs?? Damned opportunity costs!!



edit: can't plus rep you for that . . . stupid site tells me to spread some around first. lol

The NFL draft is a riddle, wrapped in an enigma shrouded in mystery, lol

FlyingElvis
03-25-2009, 01:21 PM
ouch, my brain.

Don Vito
03-25-2009, 01:43 PM
We all seem to be on the same page when it comes to linebackers. We need at least one linebacker day 1, if we came out of round 2 with Maualuga and Sintim I would be ecstatic. I don't want to touch Laurinaitis, he is not a 3-4 backer. He could do well in a tampa 2 as a MLB in my opinion, but he is not a good fit for us. BB could make me eat my words because there are always suprises come draft day, but I don't think JL would be wise for us.

Concerning our current linebackers, the only two sure things we have are Thomas and Mayo. If the injury bug strikes one or both of them we will be in a tough spot. TBC is nothing to get too excited about, I am not a fan of him. I am excited about Crable but he is unproven along with Redd. Woods has shown some flashes but we need consistency. Guyton was impressive as a special teamer and spot duty LB as a rookie but I don't think we should bank on him as a starter, he is athletic but he is not a run stopping thumper like we need in the middle (Maualuga). Ruud is another guy with some upside along with great bloodlines but we haven't seen anything from him.

This is going to be an extremely exciting Pats draft because we will have a ton of options with a lot of needs and picks on the board, I can't wait because I trust our staff to make the right decisions.

Bigburt63
03-25-2009, 01:54 PM
We all seem to be on the same page when it comes to linebackers. We need at least one linebacker day 1, if we came out of round 2 with Maualuga and Sintim I would be ecstatic. I don't want to touch Laurinaitis, he is not a 3-4 backer. He could do well in a tampa 2 as a MLB in my opinion, but he is not a good fit for us. BB could make me eat my words because there are always suprises come draft day, but I don't think JL would be wise for us.

Concerning our current linebackers, the only two sure things we have are Thomas and Mayo. If the injury bug strikes one or both of them we will be in a tough spot. TBC is nothing to get too excited about, I am not a fan of him. I am excited about Crable but he is unproven along with Redd. Woods has shown some flashes but we need consistency. Guyton was impressive as a special teamer and spot duty LB as a rookie but I don't think we should bank on him as a starter, he is athletic but he is not a run stopping thumper like we need in the middle (Maualuga). Ruud is another guy with some upside along with great bloodlines but we haven't seen anything from him.

This is going to be an extremely exciting Pats draft because we will have a ton of options with a lot of needs and picks on the board, I can't wait because I trust our staff to make the right decisions.

I feel the same way about JL. I know that RoP is high on him, but I just don't see him fitting into our 3-4. Another ILB I like in the later rounds is Appelby from UVA.

Nalej
03-25-2009, 01:59 PM
If Rey Rey gets drafted before 23- I hope they'd draft an OLB
with the idea of drafting Brinkley later on like Electric Eye said.

I agree with you all that we should draft Rey Rey if he's available.
I don't think he'll be available though- that's just me.
OLB and Safety are two positions I hope are addressed early on.
After that- I think we have the luxery to go BPA or depth/future replacements
i.e. OL and DL (it's what I'd like to see addressed) in the 2nd round
Grab Brinkley in the 3rd and I'd be as happy as I can be.

TNPatsFan
03-25-2009, 02:06 PM
Ideally we come out of day 1 with an ILB, and OLB, and a safety. The difficulty there is that Maualuga is the only ILB worthy of a day one pick. However, I am of the opinion that either Matthews or Sintim could play both OLB and ILB so there's a little flexibility there. One way or the other I'd like to see two more LB's. I was very happy to get Crable last year and have high hopes for him, but we still have no idea what we're gonna get from him. And a lot of times those guys that miss their whole rookie year never do come around.

As for safety it may be our biggest need. Right now all we have is Brandon and James as starters and no depth. Just a couple special teamers and Tank Williams whom I like but is looking more like a situational player. I love all the top safeties Delmas, Moore, and Chung. But none are really first rounders. There is one wildcard and that's Utah's Sean Smith who could play CB or S and he may be worth a first round pick.

Don Vito
03-25-2009, 02:15 PM
I think the safety we are most likely to end up with is Rashad Johnson. He isn't as physical as we usually like, but he is very smart and is a Saban product and we all know BB likes Saban's guys. Meriweather's biggest weakness is holding on to the ball, he can get to it he just drops a lot of picks. Johnson has great hands and range, he is a playmaker. That would put Meriweather at SS since Johnson is a true FS. However, that would give us two safeties who are much smaller than our typical safeties so that could make William Moore a distinct possibilty. I could see us taking anyone of Delmas, Moore, Johnson, or Chung day 1 or possibly ending up with a guy like Bruton or Hamlin.

Concerning Laurinaitis, he isn't a great fit for our defense but the staff could take a liking to him for his intelligence. We'll just have to wait and see.

proshoota25
03-25-2009, 02:15 PM
interesting article i found on the bleacher report written by Andrew Cahill

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/142813-new-england-patriots-draft-day-moves-their-not-too-old-just-inexperienced

"Just do your job!"

Bill Belichick will be saying that next season, a lot.

The general sentiment of a New England Patriots fan this offseason is that they need to get younger on defense.

Of course the team will always be looking for future talent, but this years roster is full of young, physically capable players.

That is a fact, and that is the problem.

These young players lack the experience experience needed to excel in a typically difficult to understand Bill Belichick 3-4 style defense.

Here is a look at the New England Patriots defensive depth-chart, updated as recently as March 20, 2009.



Left Defensive End

1- Ty Warren - 28 - Seven years experience.

2- Le Kevin Smith - 26 - Four years experience.



Nose Tackle

1- Vince Wilfork - 27 - Six years experience.

2- Mike Wright - 27 - Five years experience.



Right Defensive End

1- Richard Seymour - 29 - Nine years experience.

2- Jarvis Green - 30 - Eight years experience.

3- Titus Adams - 26 - One year experience.



Left Outside Linebacker

1- Pierre Woods - 27 - Four years experience.

2- Tully Banta-Cain - 28 - Seven years experience.

3- Vince Redd - 23 - One year experience.



Inside Linebacker

1- Jerod Mayo - 23 - One year experience.

1- Tedy Bruschi - 35 - Fourteen years experience.

2- Eric Alexander - 27 - Five years experience.

2- Gary Guyton - 23 - Two years experience.

3- Bo Ruud - 24 - One year experience.



Right Outside Linebacker

1- Adalius Thomas - 31 - Ten years experience.

2- Shawn Crable - 24 - One year experience.

3- Angelo Craig - 23 - One year experience.



Left Cornerback

1- Jonathon Wilhite - 25 - One year experience.

2- Shawn Springs - 34 - Thirteen years experience.

3- Terrence Wheatley - 23 - One year experience.



Right Cornerback

1- Ellis Hobbs - 25 - Five years experience.

2- Leigh Bodden - 27 - Seven years experience.

3- Mike Richardson - 25 - Three years experience.



Strong Safety

1- Brandon Meriweather - 25 - Three years experience.

2- Antwain Spann - 26 - Three years experience.

3- Tank Williams - 28 - Seven years experience.



Free Safety

1- James Sanders - 25 - Five years experience.

2- Ray Ventrone - 26 - Four years experience.



After really taking a look at who the Patriots have on their roster, I've come to some conclusions.

Tedy Bruschi is close to retirement, and Mike Vrabel has departed. With the recent signings of veteran cornerbacks, their most glaring needs are at inside and outside linebacker (not exactly a shocker).

Rodney Harrison may still not return, so if he doesn't, they may draft another safety or sign another free agent. I think they will address this with free agency this year, and then long-term with the draft next year.

As much as I like safety Louis Delmas out of Western Michigan, I am aware there will be players like him in the draft next year. They won't be able to draft him if they go after this trade for the players I'm suggesting.

They really need players to recreate a pass-rush that was non-existent last year. They need a prolific pass rusher, and they need another player who will be able to chase downs plays, as Jerod Mayo can, and Tedy Bruschi used to.

That prolific pass rusher may be Julius Peppers. He will cost a lot, though, and a trade with Carolina would more than likely be a significantly larger package than just the 34th pick, as NFL.com reported earlier last week. Keep this in mind.

They may still sign free-agent Jason Taylor—but only for the right price.

With all this in mind, I do not think that they will use this draft to bring in a fleet of new, inexperienced players. I think that Belichick will put together together a draft-pick bundle he will use to move up into the middle first round, where talent, ability, and price match perfectly (Mayo).

Now I know that in saying this, the criticism will be "then why did the Patriots not go for this with the Matt Cassel trade, and why did they trade Vrabel, too?"

Well, the Matt Cassel trade yielded what it could, and if there really was a mid-first round pick that came to the table from another team, then it came to the table after New England and Kansas City had agreed to the trade in principle.

Bill Belichick would not have wanted to create a rift with Kansas City, to go for a conditional three-team trade that may or may not have happened. If the other trade fell through, the Kansas City trade would most likely not have still been on the table.

Belichick also knew that Vrabel was an example of why the Patriots' critics thought they were getting too old on defense. Even though he was a fan favorite from Super Bowl championship Patriots' teams, it was time for him to go.

The financial handicap Matt Cassel's franchise tag had placed on the teams ability to resign players, and make offers to potential free agent acquisitions, was a key factor as well.

Freeing up the aging Vrabel's cap hit, was also key in the ability to sign players, and keep enough room under the cap to pay new key players from this years draft.

So this is what I expect.

If the Patriots don't make a trade for Julius Peppers, they will trade this draft-pick bundle to Denver (Josh McDaniels) to move up to the 12th overall pick, as well as for probably one or two later picks in 2010's draft. They then use that pick to draft Rey Maualuga (quick, fast, reacts quickly to situations) from USC to play inside linebacker.

If they decide outside linebacker truly has the priority, they draft either Brian Cushing or Clay Matthews (both versatile every down type, hybrid pass rush / cover players) from USC. I think they will pick inside first, because they think they can, and plan on, drafting Connor Barwin with the 34th pick.

They then use the 34th pick (they would not make this trade with this in the draft-pick bundle) in the draft to get Connor Barwin (my favorite player in the draft for the Patriots) from Cincinnati to play outside linebacker.

If they did not pick Maualuga with the 12th, and went with an outside linebacker, they will draft James Laurinaitis (I have him still on the board here) from Ohio State to play inside.

Some people may think that Denver will want to use this pick to draft a quarterback in light of the Jay Cutler fiasco.

In my opinion, Jay Cutler plays in Denver in 2009. Someone just needs to tell him that.

If they don't trade with Denver, they could trade with San Francisco, Buffalo, or Washington, for the 10th, 11th, or 13th pick respectfully.

If they do trade for Julius Peppers, you can pretty much count most of this out. They would have to sacrifice at least three, of their four, day-one picks to make it happen, not to mention that it would make resigning Seymour, Wilfork, and Mankins much more difficult economically speaking.

Trading for Peppers would be in line with the philosophy behind my plan towards approaching the draft this year, though.

Now back to the Patriots defense.

If they sign a whole fleet of new, inexperienced players, when would these players get the experience they need? This year the defense is going to experience some growing pains, but it is going to do just that, grow.

The young players on the roster now, will continue to get the experience they need to play well in Belichick's defense.

When it comes to the draft this year, the Patriots will follow the timeless principle of quality over quantity. With letting the players play, and making a move to draft some serious talent, the Patriots will solidify their defensive front-seven for years to come.



Andrew Cahill is a true Boston Sports fan. Check out footage of Connor Barwin on his website, "Patriot Pat's Patsies."

hannah73
03-25-2009, 02:24 PM
I doubt they draft Maulauga at all, let alone trade up for him. The warning signs are there; free lances too much, immaturity, off field problems, not super atheltic (slow combine, either he's slow or wasn't prepared), intelligence. They look for coachable guys who take instruction well. Is that Maulauga? On the other hand, BB said Lua not starting at USC was understandable as he was behind "one of the best LBs in football".

Cushing, Matthews, just average guys. cushing has been injured basically his whole career. Matthews, is he big enough to play ILB?

Appleby is a guy with a lot of experience, reasonable athleticism, he could play inside and could probably be had with a late pick.

Don Vito
03-25-2009, 02:35 PM
We need to hold on to our picks this year since we have so many needs, I would be disappointed if we tried to move up. If Maualuga falls into our laps I would be glad to take him but I don't think we should move up for him.

I really like Appelby as a late round guy, he is very talented and has experience in a similar defense, but we are starting to accumulate those young talents at LB who for some reason haven't taken there skills to the next level. They are still young, but we are getting to the point where we can't wait 2 or 3 years for a guy to be NFL ready.

hannah73
03-25-2009, 02:49 PM
We need to hold on to our picks this year since we have so many needs, I would be disappointed if we tried to move up. If Maualuga falls into our laps I would be glad to take him but I don't think we should move up for him.

I really like Appelby as a late round guy, he is very talented and has experience in a similar defense, but we are starting to accumulate those young talents at LB who for some reason haven't taken there skills to the next level. They are still young, but we are getting to the point where we can't wait 2 or 3 years for a guy to be NFL ready.


One of the reasons is they don't get a lot of playing time unless there's a gaping hole there like at ILB. Maulauga just strikes me as a meat head, maybe I'm wrong.

FlyingElvis
03-25-2009, 02:54 PM
2- Gary Guyton - 23 - Two years experience.

Is this wrong? I thought Guyton was an undrafted FA rookie last year.



I agree w/Hannah that the need at LB this year will force some of these young guys to get experience. Which is exactly what happened last year w/all the injuries. We just have to hope they do a better job this year, especially on 3rd down.

TNPatsFan
03-25-2009, 02:55 PM
Cushing, Matthews, just average guys. cushing has been injured basically his whole career. Matthews, is he big enough to play ILB?


Is Matthews big enough to play ILB? He's 6'3 240. Mayo is 6'1 242. Is he big enough? Matthews is big enough to play ILB and versatile enough to play either ILB or OLB. There are definitely players I like better, but he'd be a great second round pick because he can play multiple LB positions as well as special teams.

ElectricEye
03-25-2009, 04:44 PM
Is Matthews big enough to play ILB? He's 6'3 240. Mayo is 6'1 242. Is he big enough? Matthews is big enough to play ILB and versatile enough to play either ILB or OLB. There are definitely players I like better, but he'd be a great second round pick because he can play multiple LB positions as well as special teams.

Size isn't really an issue with Matthews. He wouldn't play ILB for us either, that's wasting one of his best skills. He's a bit small for either position, but he played defensive end effectively for USC. That translates well to being able to able to play outside in a 3-4. He could stand to add a bit of weight but I'm not really concerned with his size.

nepg
03-26-2009, 08:00 AM
Matthews could eventually play ILB. He's smart enough and works hard enough to be able to do something like that. But they'd want him outside at first.
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ElectricEye
03-26-2009, 11:05 AM
He wouldn't be bad inside, but that's taking away from his relentless pass rushing, which is what everybody likes about him in the first place.

nepg
03-26-2009, 11:21 AM
Everyone likes how hard he works. He'd work just as hard no matter where he was on the field or on the depth chart. That's what people love about him. He's going to be an amazing special teamer.
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ElectricEye
03-26-2009, 11:25 AM
Beyond his work ethic, he's also an excellent pass rusher with a motor that doesn't stop. He's got the skills to get 8+ sacks a year playing OLB.

Don Vito
03-26-2009, 02:41 PM
If Matthews fell to 34 and we took him there, I would be ecstatic. He would be such a great fit for our team. I could see us or the Phins taking him in the first, but if we wound up with two of the USC LBs (Maualuga/Matthews/Cushing) we would be in great shape, they all could fit in our defense. Maualuga and Matthews would be awesome.

ElectricEye
03-26-2009, 02:43 PM
If Matthews fell to 34 and we took him there, I would be ecstatic. He would be such a great fit for our team. I could see us or the Phins taking him in the first, but if we wound up with two of the USC LBs (Maualuga/Matthews/Cushing) we would be in great shape, they all could fit in our defense. Maualuga and Matthews would be awesome.

I was thinking of that as well. Maualuga and Matthews would be absolutely excellent. That would be just what the doctor ordered on defense.

Bigburt63
03-26-2009, 03:27 PM
That would shore up our defense, at least the LB corps, with Mayo for years to come. Thomas, Mayo, Maualuga, Matthews starting with Woods, Crable, Redd, Guyton and Bruschi in a rotation would be amazing. Then we just need a safety.....;)

proshoota25
03-26-2009, 03:34 PM
That would shore up our defense, at least the LB corps, with Mayo for years to come. Thomas, Mayo, Maualuga, Matthews starting with Woods, Crable, Redd, Guyton and Bruschi in a rotation would be amazing. Then we just need a safety.....;)

crossing my fingers that we either get delmas, moore, or johnson :)

FlyingElvis
03-26-2009, 03:41 PM
We have enough picks to maneuver and get all of them. Gawddammit the draft can't get here fast enough!!!!

Nalej
03-26-2009, 03:59 PM
We have enough picks to maneuver and get all of them. Gawddammit the draft can't get here fast enough!!!!

I hear that. My wife's due with our first son on the 20th
and I told her- if for some reason he comes on Draft Day...
She's gonna be highly upset with me 'cause I'll be on my cellphone
checking NFL Mobile Live and NFL Network staying updated with the draft

haha... she didn't think it was as funny as I did. *shrug* :D

FlyingElvis
03-26-2009, 04:05 PM
HA! Don't sweat it, all the maternity rooms have televisions!

Congrats & good luck. It's awesome - I've got a 9 month old son coming home from his first flight tonight. He & mom & grandma went to visit family in NC. I got to stay home and demo & replace the kitchen cabinets & counters. Total BS! lol

TNPatsFan
03-26-2009, 04:29 PM
Yeah I could deal with Maualuga and Matthews. Follow that up with a good safety like Delmas or Moore and we'd be looking good. They could then go BPA at any position for the rest of the draft.

Don Vito
03-26-2009, 04:47 PM
That would shore up our defense, at least the LB corps, with Mayo for years to come. Thomas, Mayo, Maualuga, Matthews starting with Woods, Crable, Redd, Guyton and Bruschi in a rotation would be amazing. Then we just need a safety.....;)

That would be great, wow. We like to rotate guys in we just haven't had the depth to keep everyone fresh the last few years. It would be nice to have that much depth and athleticism across the board, with Bruschi's intelligence and leadership to boot.

If we could get 2 LBs and a safety we would be in great shape on defense. James Sanders would be an amazing backup safety/special teamer, he is a solid and smart player he just can get exposed due to his lack of great athleticism.

We could still use one more young corner, but I think we might be able to wait until the third round for a corner and take a guy like Joe Burnett. Then again, I wouldn't be upset at all if we walked out of day 1 with 2 LBs and 2 DBs. I would actually be ecstatic.

ElectricEye
03-26-2009, 11:06 PM
Give me Rey, Clay, Byrd, and Johnson and that would pretty much be the greatest draft in history.

Don Vito
03-27-2009, 12:17 AM
Give me Rey, Clay, Byrd, and Johnson and that would pretty much be the greatest draft in history.

That would be an absurd day 1, absolutely perfect. Maualuga, Matthews, and Byrd are probably my favorite prospects for us at their respective positions but I would be thrilled with Moore, Johnson, or Delmas at safety, perhaps Chung or Bruton.

ElectricEye
03-27-2009, 12:57 AM
It's fairly realistic as well. We could do that if we wanted to. The only question is if we want to or not. We draft for three years down the line. We might not understand every pick right away. But as far as internet hype goes, but would be incredible.

As far as safeties go, I've kind of fallen out with Delmas. Really don't like that Wonderlic score, and I'm not usually a person to question someone based on that. Merriweather can play strong with no problems at all. He's small, but he plays the run well enough that it isn't an issue. If we do want to go for a strong safety, I really love Chip Vaughn's game. But Johnson is the one that makes the most sense right now.