PDA

View Full Version : Jeremy Maclin or Percy Harvin


JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 09:04 AM
Who's a better WR Maclin or Harvin?

thule
12-13-2008, 09:21 AM
Depends what you need. Harvin gives you some more versatility....could be put wherever since he has experience in the backfield.

If your looking for more of a pure WR who has arguably the quickest cuts in college football while running a route you take maclin.

Both guys can help out your special teams as return guys.

Another thing to factor in is the fact Harvin hasn't been able to stay healthy....based on that criteria alone I think you go Maclin. Harvin is going to take more scheming on the offensive side of the ball to get the full potential.

JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 10:16 AM
Follow up Question, Darrius Heyward-Bey or Jeremy Maclin
So could you rank DHB, Maclin, Harvin?

thule
12-13-2008, 10:37 AM
Follow up Question, Darrius Heyward-Bey or Jeremy Maclin
So could you rank DHB, Maclin, Harvin?

Pick your poison type of deal.

DHB is a guy you draft to be a future #1. I think Robert Meachem when I think DHB....he is a guy you draft thinking he is going to solidify the spot for 10 years....but he is far from a lock...I think he is a bit of a project...and don't think he could start right away.

Maclin I can't ever see being a #1 guy...sure guys like Moss and Smith do it...but both guys are a bit more thick than he is....he'd excel as a #2 in the NFL....and is the most ready to make the jump imo.

Harvin like I said earlier...can do more than anyone at WR in this class...but can he stay healthy and do you have a scheme that can put him at his best? This is a buyer beware for me....gotta have the peices to draft him.

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 11:01 AM
maclin is both a better pass catcher and return man. he has a much better body and though has had some inuries but hasnt missed signifigant time. harvins done most damage in the run game so unless you plan to use him lots in the backfiled on reverses etc i dont see tons of value. and if theres one thing thats sure to happen as the sun comes up tomorrow is that harvin will be hurt all the time. so prepare if your team drafts that he may make a few plays at some point but he will surely miss signifigant amounts of playing time. maclin is my only rd 1 receiver at this point. he has the value added ability to contribute in the return game immediately while learning the nuances and hes a decent pass catcher doesnt drop many. harvin idconsider in rd 2 because iof value added and big play ability but you just have to know youre getting a part time player in the offense becuase of inury and limited uses for him. id say rd 3 would be a good value but rd 2 wouldnt be an awful move he can win some games with big plays.

JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 11:08 AM
maclin is my only rd 1 receiver at this point
So you don't think Michael Crabtree is a Rd.1 pick

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 11:11 AM
no i only like maclin that high.

JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 11:16 AM
no i only like maclin that high.

That's interesting, why don't you like Crabtree in Rd. 1?

MarioPalmer
12-13-2008, 11:25 AM
Crabtree is the only top 10 receiver in this draft, Star knows that, he's just going against the grain with this one. Crabtree is most like Larry Fitzgerald or Anquin Boldin both of which are worthy of top 5 picks if they came out now. Thats what Crabtree's future is most like.

A team like the Seahawks, Raiders, etc who need a big play, big target. big possesion receiver will take Crabtree. Michael has been dominanting big time corners for the better part of two years now and he has been THE most consistent in that respect also. Not Harvin, nor Maclin nor Bey have come close. I can't think of a receiver that would be a junior next year that would be a better pro than Crabtree.

BuddyCHRIST
12-13-2008, 11:30 AM
I like Maclin, I do think Harvin is a special talent he's just raw from Urbie's offense and the injuries are a major concern, plus there's character issues. He's definitely outstanding when he's out in space but its alot harder to get guys out there in the NFL. Maclin has such exceptional speed and quickness and looks more natural as a WR to me. I truly think he can be a #1, he's not huge but not as small as Moss or Smith. Coming out of the spread is an issue, but Missouri's spread is a little more pro style than UF's, if that makes any sense.

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 11:32 AM
please use a top 10 pick on crabtree. pretty please with sugar on top. im begging you. we really need a good offensive lineman to fall to us late in the first rd and we need teams ahead of us to use waste picks as they have in the past so we can conitnue to go to the playoffs all the time. crabtree has no value added skills. hes smaller than advertised. hes not going to outrun too many nfl dbs. he runs a lot of hitches and bubble screens and rarely is required to straight beat someone. dont see him running many deep routes and beating guys. rd2 if you can afford a posession receiver that could help. there are never any top 10 wrs. they are never worthy of a pick that high. remember calvin johnson. you can be the greates prospect ever at the position and it doesnt even guarantee you one victory. so by all means roll the dice put mike crabtree on kc or cleve and keep believeing that is ever the right move. theyre never worthy of that high a pick.

Babylon
12-13-2008, 11:33 AM
Crabtree is the only top 10 receiver in this draft, Star knows that, he's just going against the grain with this one. Crabtree is most like Larry Fitzgerald or Anquin Boldin both of which are worthy of top 5 picks if they came out now. Thats what Crabtree's future is most like.

A team like the Seahawks, Raiders, etc who need a big play, big target. big possesion receiver will take Crabtree. Michael has been dominanting big time corners for the better part of two years now and he has been THE most consistent in that respect also. Not Harvin, nor Maclin nor Bey have come close. I can't think of a receiver that would be a junior next year that would be a better pro than Crabtree.


Next year i think will be a pretty good year for receivers;

Dez Bryant
Arrelious Benn
Damien Williams

but i do agree Crabtree is the real deal.

BuddyCHRIST
12-13-2008, 11:40 AM
please use a top 10 pick on crabtree. pretty please with sugar on top. im begging you. we really need a good offensive lineman to fall to us late in the first rd and we need teams ahead of us to use waste picks as they have in the past so we can conitnue to go to the playoffs all the time. crabtree has no value added skills. hes smaller than advertised. hes not going to outrun too many nfl dbs. he runs a lot of hitches and bubble screens and rarely is required to straight beat someone. dont see him running many deep routes and beating guys. rd2 if you can afford a posession receiver that could help. there are never any top 10 wrs. they are never worthy of a pick that high. remember calvin johnson. you can be the greates prospect ever at the position and it doesnt even guarantee you one victory. so by all means roll the dice put mike crabtree on kc or cleve and keep believeing that is ever the right move. theyre never worthy of that high a pick.

See I don't completely disagree with your opinion, because in a very sketchy manner your saying that you shouldn't pick a WR high because WR's dont win games. But obviously O-Lineman and QB's aren't going to be the only guys picked in the first round, thats just not how things work.

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 11:49 AM
theyre complementary players not core players. when youre picking high you need elite core players. you can get steve smith in rd 2 or to in rd 4 or marvin harrison with the 18th pick.. you need to build your team up the middle as they say. the best teams are all built well up the middle. they all have good ol and dl and qbs. a freaky elite prospect lb or rb with the total complete package could be considered but only if there is not an elite dl, qb or ot available.

Race for the Heisman
12-13-2008, 12:02 PM
Maclin for me. Better return man and more potential as a #1/#2. If Percy Harvin goes in round two and Steve Smith's me I'm going to be a little upset though.

vidae
12-13-2008, 12:25 PM
I've seen a lot of Maclin and if it's between Maclin or Harvin I'm going Maclin 10 times out of 10. He's too explosive.

As for the Crabtree debate, while I do agree that WR and RB are more flash type picks and you build your franchise with the OL and DL/LB corps, we all know that someone is going to fall in love with Crabtree in the top 10 and he, right now, is a top 10 lock. As to his skills, I don't think you'll find a more skilled receiver in this draft. He will need some work at the next level, but who doesn't?

SenorGato
12-13-2008, 12:26 PM
Pick your poison type of deal.

DHB is a guy you draft to be a future #1. I think Robert Meachem when I think DHB....he is a guy you draft thinking he is going to solidify the spot for 10 years....but he is far from a lock...I think he is a bit of a project...and don't think he could start right away.

Maclin I can't ever see being a #1 guy...sure guys like Moss and Smith do it...but both guys are a bit more thick than he is....he'd excel as a #2 in the NFL....and is the most ready to make the jump imo.

Harvin like I said earlier...can do more than anyone at WR in this class...but can he stay healthy and do you have a scheme that can put him at his best? This is a buyer beware for me....gotta have the peices to draft him.

In Maclin's defense, Smith and Moss were once smaller too.

I really like Maclin's upside, so I'll take him here.

I would not take him over DHB. Both aren't locks to be great either, but I like Maclin better.

Babylon
12-13-2008, 12:29 PM
See I don't completely disagree with your opinion, because in a very sketchy manner your saying that you shouldn't pick a WR high because WR's dont win games. But obviously O-Lineman and QB's aren't going to be the only guys picked in the first round, thats just not how things work.


I agree. to me you just have to rank these guys and take the highest rated player. Wrs like Andre Johnson and Calvin Johnson certainly warrant high picks.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 12:40 PM
Crabtree is the only top 10 receiver in this draft, Star knows that, he's just going against the grain with this one. Crabtree is most like Larry Fitzgerald or Anquin Boldin both of which are worthy of top 5 picks if they came out now. Thats what Crabtree's future is most like.

A team like the Seahawks, Raiders, etc who need a big play, big target. big possesion receiver will take Crabtree. Michael has been dominanting big time corners for the better part of two years now and he has been THE most consistent in that respect also. Not Harvin, nor Maclin nor Bey have come close. I can't think of a receiver that would be a junior next year that would be a better pro than Crabtree.

Well sometimes when StarHeather stays strickly with football, his intellegense shines through, it's when he gets carried away with himself that he becomes ridiculous and everybody ignores him.
Crabtree is no Fitz or Bolden, he is expected to be significantly slower in the 40 than either of those 2. If he runs a 4.60 as some are saying, he'll go much later than people expect. This isn't college football where you get to be covered by 4.60 CB's, he'll have to beat 4.30-4.35 CB's in the pros and we'll have to wait and see if he can get seperation from them at the next level.
When you add in the offense he plays in where QB's have been throwing for over 4,000 yards every year since Leach has been there, his stats could be deceptive. Don't get me wrong there is a lot to like about Crabtree's game but unless he runs a sub 4.50, he won't see the top 10 and if he should run a 4.60, he'll be a late 1st rounder at best. Remember he only averages 12.2 Yds per catch, not exactly awe inspiring #'s for a college WR.
I personally don't think he is a top 10 guy till he can prove he can run that top end speed.
The Seahawks won't take him at #3. You have to have it all to go that high and Crabtree just doesn't have anything close to elite speed, in fact he will be a lot closer to the lower end when it comes to his speed. Oakland won't even look at him in round 2 if he falls that far. Al Davis loves speed and slow possession receivers aren't of much interest to him. Crabtree isn't going to be a deep threat at the next level, he's too slow. On a deep pass .1 equates to about 3 feet and if he runs a deep pattern he is giving away at least 9 feet to a speedy CB. That doesn't usually equal success at the next level and certainly isn't what you look for in a top 5 or top 10 WR.

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 12:45 PM
andre johnson has given them 0 winning seasons. theyre never worthy. different positions have different values. the best prospect at whichever position or the best player available strategy is a loser.

sbh15
12-13-2008, 12:49 PM
I don't see either being a terrific NFL wide receiver. In all honesty I think it's a toss up and that either will end up like Devin Hester. Harvin can provide more versatility and probably better YAC ability, while Maclin can provide more return ability. I think both are worth about 4th rounders based on their development at this point, but early 2nd based on potential.

Cigaro
12-13-2008, 12:50 PM
Harvin will probably be a bust, but I'm just in love with him.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-13-2008, 12:52 PM
Crabtree is no Fitz or Bolden, he is expected to be significantly slower in the 40 than either of those 2. If he runs a 4.60 as some are saying, he'll go much later than people expect.

Remember, Fitzgerald went 3rd overall after running a 4.63 at the combine (if memory serves). I don't think that running a sub 4.5 is a requirement for Crabtree to be considered the top receiver and as a result go somewhere in the top 10. I'm not his biggest fan in the world, I think that his adjustment to the NFL is going to be rougher than most realize, but his stock could definitely sit in that range.

Sometimes I think the best shot that a wideout has of going in the top 10 this year is if Oakland is sitting in the 6-9 range and Heyward-Bey has a strong combine showing.

djp
12-13-2008, 12:53 PM
I like both to be honest, but Maclin is a more polished receiver and has less injury concerns.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 12:57 PM
See I don't completely disagree with your opinion, because in a very sketchy manner your saying that you shouldn't pick a WR high because WR's dont win games. But obviously O-Lineman and QB's aren't going to be the only guys picked in the first round, thats just not how things work.

Well I agree that WR is a secondary position and unless you already have a superb QB, drafting a WR won't help a team much. They depend on their QB's performance to be effective and that relegates them to a secondary draft status. Of course if you have a franchise QB, a great WR could definitely be helpful and those teams will spend a 1st rounder on one.
On offense QB's, LT's and RB's are all considered priority positions in the draft. WR, TE, OG and OC are secondary positions. Again that doesn't mean they never get drafted in round 1, it just means they usually get passed over if a prospect is available who is in their area of rankings and plays a more primary position. If one of the secondary position players has a significantly higher rating than a primary position player, he will get drafted in round 1 no matter what position he plays.
Defenses a little more difficult to rank since each system used has different priorities and what is a primary position in one defense may be a secondary position in another defense.

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 12:59 PM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

illmatic74
12-13-2008, 01:03 PM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16There was no player they could have drafted to prevent that.

CashmoneyDrew
12-13-2008, 01:04 PM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

Exactly. Because one player would turn that whole team around right? Do they put computers in daycares today? I wish my daycare had computers so I could post on forums when I was 7.

captainjack27
12-13-2008, 01:50 PM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

...This is a joke right? You're callin Calvin Johnson a bust pick? OMG hahahahah. There was no one they could have picked to solve the 0-16. Unless you wanted them to draft superman.

CroomDawgs
12-13-2008, 01:58 PM
andre johnson has given them 0 winning seasons. theyre never worthy. different positions have different values. the best prospect at whichever position or the best player available strategy is a loser.

Andre Johnson leads the nFL in Cathes, its not his fault they have no pass defense.

CroomDawgs
12-13-2008, 01:58 PM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

You cannot be serious right? This is joke. Has to be. No one is this ignorant.

CroomDawgs
12-13-2008, 02:03 PM
Sigh...i can't beileve i'm doing this...but i agree with Star on Crabtree to an extent.

He's a mid-late first rounder IMO. I think he'll be top 10 based off his hype, but I don't see him being a star. I'm not gonna knock him for his college scheme a lot like Star, but Crabtree will prolly rin a 4.6 maybe high 4.5 40 so he'll be a possesion guy. Also Crabtree can't get seperation deep in the pro's, thats my biggest knock on him. He won't be deep threat at all and he'll have to get open deep. Look at the past top WRs in the draft. CJ, Braylon, Andre Johnson, all were able great at gettign seperation deep and were outstanding deep threats. Crabtrees yards come from, as star pointed out, screens, hitches outs and slants. He also does not run that great of routes and is slow coming out of his break, but those can be fixed in the NFL.

He's a first round prospect, but I don't think he's top 10 worthy.

JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 02:17 PM
I think people put too much weight on 40 times with WR's and they equate 40 times to seperation, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72 at the combine, Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63, Andre Johnson ran a 4.4 flat, Brandon Marshall ran a 4.52, Roddy White ran a 4.47, and I think Crab will run in the 4.4's

And how 'bout the greatest WR of all-time Jerry Rice, his 40 was 4.60

He's an elite talent and shouldn't be downgraded because of his 40 time

Turtlepower
12-13-2008, 02:18 PM
I think people weight 40 times too much with WR's, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72 at the combine, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.63, Andre Johnson ran a 4.4 flat, and I think Crab will run in the 4.4's

He's an elite talent

Boldin is that amazing that there are 2 of him at the combine.

JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 02:22 PM
Boldin is that amazing that there are 2 of him at the combine.

It was supposed to be Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 02:23 PM
if you look at the recent highly drafted top 10 wrs or tes and look at the records of their teams and the records and contibutions of players selected after them i think it speaks volumes. you need good wrs. but there are way more good wrs than there are good qbs or tackles or elite pass rushers. so i think you have to identify and lock up those elite core players at thise positions when you pick high. its clear. calvin johnson, a great player no disrespect if they didnt have hiom they may never score the best prospect ever at the position does not guarantee you one victory. andre johnson. braylon edwards winslow, vernopn davis. theyure all great players. but theyre greatness doesnt matter as much as how great peyton manning is or how great ben roethlisberger is or how great walter jones is or how great richard seymour is. they just dont matter as much and there are way more of them. and you dont need to have to and randy moss as your corps to get it done. it helps. but its not required. no elite qb. lineman who cant block. a defense thats not stout its going to be difficult to get it. its won and lost mostly in the trenches and in the hands of the qb. you can have tom brady and randy moss but if you get dominated in the trenches you still lose. you can have the greatest skill players in the world but if you cant block for them or get them the ball in position to make plays it doesnt matter youre not getting it done. and hes nowhere near the genetic freak of a randy moss or calvin ohnson or braylon edwards. ust nowhere near that level of athlete. theres no way hes better than santonio holmes so i wouldnt pick him in rd 1. hes more of a malcolm kelly type prospect. rd 2 for crabtree for me. hes a good player. ust not an elite player

MarioPalmer
12-13-2008, 02:23 PM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

Still a franchise receiver though, can't fault a player because of a lack of quarterbacking, offensive line and no running game. Yes they should have taken Thomas or Peterson, but you can't fault a club for taking a shot at a player that is a legit top skill position prospect. They just happen to overlook 2 bigger needs.

The Seahawks CAN afford to take Crabtree, they have the blocks there to take a shot at a high profile skilled player.

JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 02:30 PM
Comparing Michael Crabtree to Malcolm Kelly is ridiculous

I agree that there are lots and lots of good WR's out there and less talented big guys and QB's, but I wouldn't pass on a guy like Larry Fitzgerald, Calvin Johnson, or Michael Crabtree to reach for a 2nd tier O-Lineman or something like that

CroomDawgs
12-13-2008, 02:31 PM
Still a franchise receiver though, can't fault a player because of a lack of quarterbacking, offensive line and no running game. Yes they should have taken Thomas or Peterson, but you can't fault a club for taking a shot at a player that is a legit top skill position prospect. They just happen to overlook 2 bigger needs.

The Seahawks CAN afford to take Crabtree, they have the blocks there to take a shot at a high profile skilled player.


Seattle IMO should take if they have a shot andre Smith or Beanie Wells. Deion Branch may not be elite but he showed lately that he's still a solid receiver, and Burleson will be back next year. Seattle could take a shot on a guy like Kenny Britt should he declare in round 2.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 02:32 PM
I think people weight 40 times too much with WR's, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72 at the combine, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.63, Andre Johnson ran a 4.4 flat, Brandon Marshall ran a 4.52, Roddy White ran a 4.47, and I think Crab will run in the 4.4's

He's an elite talent

Bolden was coming off of surgery at the combine and just wanted to show scouts he was healing nicely. He ran with a noticable limp. Healthy, he is at least a 4.45 40 guy maybe even faster. I wish people would find another WR who ran a slow 40 as examples like Michael Clayton of Tampa Bay or Mike Williams of Detroit, look what it did for their careers. If the other WR your talking about is Fitz, he ran a 4.45 40.
Crabtree won't run in the 4.4's, that is just wishful thinkg. If he has an excellent run, it will be in the 4.55 range. He simply doesn't have elite speed or anything resembling it. Will he be a good pro, I like his chances but he won't be dominate at that speed and getting deep will be a serious problem.
I just don't see him as a top 10 guy unless he completely shocks me at the combine which is possibe but highly unlikely and unless he runs in the 4.4's, he is NOT an elite prospect.

CroomDawgs
12-13-2008, 02:33 PM
I think people put too much weight on 40 times with WR's and they equate 40 times to seperation, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72 at the combine, Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63, Andre Johnson ran a 4.4 flat, Brandon Marshall ran a 4.52, Roddy White ran a 4.47, and I think Crab will run in the 4.4's

And how 'bout the greatest WR of all-time Jerry Rice, his 40 was 4.60

He's an elite talent and shouldn't be downgraded because of his 40 time
Problem is that those guys (well at least AJ, Fitzy, and boldin) all could get seperation deep. Crabtree can't get open deep like those guys did.

If he runs in the 4.4's i'd be stunned.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 02:37 PM
I think people put too much weight on 40 times with WR's and they equate 40 times to seperation, Anquan Boldin ran a 4.72 at the combine, Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.63, Andre Johnson ran a 4.4 flat, Brandon Marshall ran a 4.52, Roddy White ran a 4.47, and I think Crab will run in the 4.4's

And how 'bout the greatest WR of all-time Jerry Rice, his 40 was 4.60

He's an elite talent and shouldn't be downgraded because of his 40 time

Gil Brandt who timed Jerry Rice at the combine and advised Dallas to draft him in round 1, timed him at 4.40. Fitz broke 4.50 at the combine at around 4.45. If your going to make an argument about 40 times please check your facts. Right now you are just stating false rumors to prove your point and it isn't working.

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 02:40 PM
malcolm kelly has better hands is bigger similar speed. both always hurt. im almost thinking hes a not as good as malcolm kelly prospect. anquan boldins not worthy of a top 10 pick. neither is fitz or cj or johnson. none of them are.they dont contribute enough to consistent winning. they complement the big pieces. no big pieces no championships.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 02:43 PM
Remember, Fitzgerald went 3rd overall after running a 4.63 at the combine (if memory serves). I don't think that running a sub 4.5 is a requirement for Crabtree to be considered the top receiver and as a result go somewhere in the top 10. I'm not his biggest fan in the world, I think that his adjustment to the NFL is going to be rougher than most realize, but his stock could definitely sit in that range.

Sometimes I think the best shot that a wideout has of going in the top 10 this year is if Oakland is sitting in the 6-9 range and Heyward-Bey has a strong combine showing.

Fitz ran a 4.45 40 at the combine which is why he went top 5. I do agree that Oakland and especially Al Davis loves speed so Heyward-Bey is not out of the question if he's as fast as they claim.

CroomDawgs
12-13-2008, 02:43 PM
malcolm kelly has better hands is bigger similar speed. both always hurt. im almost thinking hes a not as good as malcolm kelly prospect. anquan boldins not worthy of a top 10 pick. neither is fitz or cj or johnson. none of them are.they dont contribute enough to consistent winning. they complement the big pieces. no big pieces no championships.

So your suggesting that Plaxico, Steve SMith, and Hines Ward are all better players than Fitz AJ, and CJ? Yea, no. Ever occur to you that football is a team game

CroomDawgs
12-13-2008, 02:44 PM
malcolm kelly has better hands is bigger similar speed. both always hurt. im almost thinking hes a not as good as malcolm kelly prospect. anquan boldins not worthy of a top 10 pick. neither is fitz or cj or johnson. none of them are.they dont contribute enough to consistent winning. they complement the big pieces. no big pieces no championships.

Hands i agree on but thats it. Always hurt? Kelly has a degenerative knee and thats why he fell in the draft. Crabtree rolled his ankle very different injuries.

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 02:50 PM
theyre just as good. honestly for me, there arte few guys id take over hines ward, but i wouldnt build a bad team around him. regardless of what the injury is their still both always inured

STARHEATHER
12-13-2008, 02:50 PM
yes -3000!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sbh15
12-13-2008, 02:55 PM
malcolm kelly has better hands is bigger similar speed. both always hurt. im almost thinking hes a not as good as malcolm kelly prospect. anquan boldins not worthy of a top 10 pick. neither is fitz or cj or johnson. none of them are.they dont contribute enough to consistent winning. they complement the big pieces. no big pieces no championships.

Are you honestly suggesting that if you took away Boldin and Fitzgerald, that the Cardinals would be where they are right now? This is why you're stupid.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 02:57 PM
malcolm kelly has better hands is bigger similar speed. both always hurt. im almost thinking hes a not as good as malcolm kelly prospect. anquan boldins not worthy of a top 10 pick. neither is fitz or cj or johnson. none of them are.they dont contribute enough to consistent winning. they complement the big pieces. no big pieces no championships.

Now, you have reached the point where I definitely disagree. Kelly was not the prospect Crabtree is, Crabtree is a far better prospect but simply not a top 10 type of prospect IMO.
Drafting a great WR is fine if you are looking for somebody to compliment a great QB. These type of teams will definitely draft a WR because they know for sure he will be productive with say a Peyton throwing him the ball. Houston thought they had drafted the QB in Carr so their pick was acceptable as well. Detroit drafting Johnson was rather foolish in my opinion considering they already had Roy Williams on the roster and another WR wasn't going to lead them to more victories. It was a complete disaster for Detroit as witnessed by their 0-16 season. They needed help far more at other primary positions but with Millen running the draft, lunacy could be expected. It isn't a downgrade for Johnson but simply a fact that the pick of another WR showed how out of touch Millen was in knowing how to rebuild a football team.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Getting back to Harvin vs Maclin, if both were healthy I'd take Harvin because as a pro he is never going to be asked to run the ball up the gut in the NFL. At WR he might have stayed healthy but since he has been injured, I'd have to draft Maclin 1st. Because of his injuries Harvin could fall to late round 1 or early round 2, but if he stays healthy as a pro WR, he will be a game changer. Some good team will take a shot probably late round 1 because the alternative is to draft a 2nd round type talent vs Harvin who has top 10 elite ability.
I'm, not knocking Maclin at all, he'll likely go top 15-20 and has solid pro potential. He could also be a game changer but I just don't think he's as special as Harvin. However, he is healthy, I project he has a real chance to get drafted ahead of Harvin whose not.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-13-2008, 03:10 PM
Fitz ran a 4.45 40 at the combine which is why he went top 5. I do agree that Oakland and especially Al Davis loves speed so Heyward-Bey is not out of the question if he's as fast as they claim.

No he didn't. He ran a 4.63. And then a 4.5 at his pro day. He never timed under 4.5.

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 03:31 PM
No he didn't. He ran a 4.63. And then a 4.5 at his pro day. He never timed under 4.5.

I clearly remember him breaking 4.50 at around 4.45 at his pro day. I believe that is what cinched his placement in the top 5 although Arizona has one of the worst scouting departments in the NFL. It is just recently that with a brand new stadium providing increased revenues that they have suddenly become more competitive. Their scouting department was so bad that their HC Green made the pick. If you examine the 2004 draft which by the way was one of the better ones in this decade, I think you could argue that Arizona could have done a lot better than another WR when they already had Bolden.
Has Fitz been a great pro, certainly but he also has the luxury of playing with Bolden and now Breaston so teams cannot double team him nearly as much as other great WR's face.
Is Arizona going to make it to the SB, I don't think so, after all winning the NFC West isn't that impressive IMO.

JaxJag_1
12-13-2008, 03:45 PM
Fitz ran a 4.63, look it up

Iamcanadian
12-13-2008, 04:14 PM
Fitz ran a 4.63, look it up

I did:


http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_185853.html

http://proxy.espn.go.com/ncf/columns/story?columnist=kiper_jr_mel&id=1765595

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04083/290029.stm

And I still cannot find 4.63.

Paranoidmoonduck
12-14-2008, 12:47 AM
At a home friendly pro day with hand timed numbers, he'll definitely post a few high 4.4's, simply based on probability. His combine number should be around Fitzgerald. Being a speedster isn't really required to being a top 10 pick at wideout, but I wouldn't rate Crabtree on par with Fitzgerald in most things, even if they are even on speed.

Monomach
12-14-2008, 03:57 AM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

As usual, you are 100% correct. Your insight into the game of football is unmatched. If Calvin Johnson were a real franchise WR, he'd snap the ball, block incoming defenders, throw it downfield, then run down there and catch it.

After scoring, he'd go out there and play Tampa 2 MLB.

Since he doesn't do that, they should cut him. That 0-16 they're heading for obviously shows that he is not very good.

Caddy
12-14-2008, 04:25 AM
I'm a Maclin man. I'd be pretty stoked if he ended up in Tampa Bay come draft day.

gpngc
12-14-2008, 04:32 AM
What are we talking about here? Crabtree finds the endzone. A LOT. And he has great hands and runs precise routes. Hands, route-running are criteria #1 and #2 I look for in a WR prospect.

I don't care if he runs a 4.8, the Seahawks could really use him. I think he'll take some time to adjust to the NFL game as all young WRs do, but there's no reason to think he can't develop his game. Plus, teams gameplan and scout and utilize their weapons to play to their strengths. If Crabtree REALLY can't go deep on a straight 9 he will use double-moves or maybe even stay in the short or intermediate game.

Straight-line speed on deep routes is not as important as we think. How often does someone run a deep pattern and is wide open? If that occurs it's usually a blown assignment. Any team playing good defense will quite often be in position against a deep pattern. What makes guys like Fitzgerald, Jennings, and Steve Smith great is that they can locate the ball and pluck it WITH a defender draped on their back. Crabtree does this well too.

gpngc
12-14-2008, 04:34 AM
And I prefer Maclin mainly because of Harvin's injury problems and lack of real WR experience. He's a heck of a talent but will need a lot of work on playing basically a new position. Beating press coverage will be a big deal for Harvin.

Sniper
12-14-2008, 06:56 AM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

You're so right. Justin Gage, Tennessee's leading receiver, is the best receiver in the NFL. I mean, it doesn't matter that he only has 471 yards and 5 touchdowns, because his team has the best record. Kerry Collins is the best QB in the league, Bo Scaife is the best tight end, and Vince Young is the best backup QB.

JaxJag_1
12-14-2008, 07:14 AM
Iamcanadian, look at Larry Fitz's NFL Draft Scout.com profile and you'll see his combine numbers

Sniper
12-14-2008, 07:16 AM
Iamcanadian, look at Larry Fitz's NFL Draft Scout.com profile and you'll see his combine numbers

20 point infraction in 3...2....1..

rfc17
12-14-2008, 04:41 PM
I would take Harvin every time over Maclin. People knock Harvin because they line him up at RB, but they do so cuz he is so talented. Line him up at WR and he'd be one of if not the best WR in college. not only is he fast, he can change direction without losing speed better than almost anyone ive ever seen, college or pro. and as we all know, straight line speed isnt nearly that important if you cant change direction. Harvin has shown he has great hands when given the chance. no CB will be able to stay with him one on one with his ability to stop on a dime and accelerate. the only thing he'll need work on is dealing with pressure coverage. but what rookie WR doesnt need work on that? no college WR sees that so they all have to make the adjustment when they reach the pro's.

my only concern with Harvin would be the injury issues, but as someone else mentioned, he wont line up at RB in the NFL very often if at all, so he wont take the pounding he does in college.

CroomDawgs
12-14-2008, 04:50 PM
What are we talking about here? Crabtree finds the endzone. A LOT. And he has great hands and runs precise routes. Hands, route-running are criteria #1 and #2 I look for in a WR prospect.

Well thats a bold face lie. He doesn't run great routes at all.

Xonraider
12-14-2008, 04:54 PM
you mean a franchise wr like calvin johnson. great pick. 0-16

is this a joke?

moTIGS
12-15-2008, 03:12 AM
I don't see either being a terrific NFL wide receiver. In all honesty I think it's a toss up and that either will end up like Devin Hester. Harvin can provide more versatility and probably better YAC ability, while Maclin can provide more return ability. I think both are worth about 4th rounders based on their development at this point, but early 2nd based on potential.

Hester did what exactly in college? He STILL doesn't know how to play WR.

Maclin and Harvin both have far more ability as receivers than Hester ever will.

Maclin as a 4th rounder based on current ability and 2nd rounder based on potential is flat out absurd. What else do you need to see?

2 Live Crew
12-15-2008, 04:44 PM
I would take Heyward-Bey over any WR in this draft. I'm slightly biased because I watched all of MD's games this year, but this guy is ridiculous. He would easily have better numbers than Maclin/Crabtree if he played in an offense like that.

The Terps have a horrible QB (Chris Turner) that wouldn't even be 3rd string on a top 25 team. Their playcalling was extremely conservative, they rarely took chances with the ball. The few times a game that DHB got to touch the ball he was a threat to take it to the house each time.

His explosiveness is so far beyond Maclin/Crabtree that I would be willing to take the risk to get him. He could be the next TO except without the attitude problem. He's got the total package at WR but was so underutilized by a horrible coaching staff and QB.

ThatThereCarGoin200mph
12-16-2008, 12:03 AM
maclin or harvin, hmmm all im reading is 40 times injuries and maclin is a better kick returner, injuries are certainly a legitamite concern about harvin however he never returned punt/kicks in college however that will be his greatest value to begin his career in the nfl count on it forget forty speeds harvin easily has the fasted game speed of any of the wr's, neither will be #1 wr's in all likely hood

yourfavestoner
12-16-2008, 02:41 AM
Well sometimes when StarHeather stays strickly with football, his intellegense shines through, it's when he gets carried away with himself that he becomes ridiculous and everybody ignores him.
Crabtree is no Fitz or Bolden, he is expected to be significantly slower in the 40 than either of those 2. If he runs a 4.60 as some are saying, he'll go much later than people expect. This isn't college football where you get to be covered by 4.60 CB's, he'll have to beat 4.30-4.35 CB's in the pros and we'll have to wait and see if he can get seperation from them at the next level.
When you add in the offense he plays in where QB's have been throwing for over 4,000 yards every year since Leach has been there, his stats could be deceptive. Don't get me wrong there is a lot to like about Crabtree's game but unless he runs a sub 4.50, he won't see the top 10 and if he should run a 4.60, he'll be a late 1st rounder at best. Remember he only averages 12.2 Yds per catch, not exactly awe inspiring #'s for a college WR.
I personally don't think he is a top 10 guy till he can prove he can run that top end speed.
The Seahawks won't take him at #3. You have to have it all to go that high and Crabtree just doesn't have anything close to elite speed, in fact he will be a lot closer to the lower end when it comes to his speed. Oakland won't even look at him in round 2 if he falls that far. Al Davis loves speed and slow possession receivers aren't of much interest to him. Crabtree isn't going to be a deep threat at the next level, he's too slow. On a deep pass .1 equates to about 3 feet and if he runs a deep pattern he is giving away at least 9 feet to a speedy CB. That doesn't usually equal success at the next level and certainly isn't what you look for in a top 5 or top 10 WR.



http://www.fantasycollegeblitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/crabtree1.jpg
=

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/don_banks/02/25/snap.judgments/p1_022507_jarrett_si.jpg

There. I said it.

JaxJag_1
12-16-2008, 11:41 AM
Dwayne Jarrett couldn't seperate from anyone and was not a YAC guy, Crab is a WAY better route runner and much faster, better hands, a WAY better YAC guy

espnhatesthe49ers
12-17-2008, 03:22 PM
Bolden was coming off of surgery at the combine and just wanted to show scouts he was healing nicely. He ran with a noticable limp. Healthy, he is at least a 4.45 40 guy maybe even faster. I wish people would find another WR who ran a slow 40 as examples like Michael Clayton of Tampa Bay or Mike Williams of Detroit, look what it did for their careers. If the other WR your talking about is Fitz, he ran a 4.45 40.
Crabtree won't run in the 4.4's, that is just wishful thinkg. If he has an excellent run, it will be in the 4.55 range. He simply doesn't have elite speed or anything resembling it. Will he be a good pro, I like his chances but he won't be dominate at that speed and getting deep will be a serious problem.
I just don't see him as a top 10 guy unless he completely shocks me at the combine which is possibe but highly unlikely and unless he runs in the 4.4's, he is NOT an elite prospect.

I'm wondering where you get this Boldin has sub 4.45 speed from? He ran a 4.71 at the combine, and a 4.59 at his pro day. Even if you want to dismiss that due to injuries if you look at any scouting report of his going into the draft you see everyone of them saying he's a possession receiver who can only occasionally separate deep.

Onto Larry Fitzgerald. Fitz ran a 4.63 at the combine and a 4.47 at his pro day. Pro day numbers can be tricky. I remember one year everyone was raving about Carriker's pro day numbers saying how he ran a 4.7 (compared to a 4.9 at the combine). Only to look up that a white fullback also ran a low 4.3 forty there as well. My point is there's fast track that lead to inflated numbers. It's hard to go back 5 years and see how everyone did that day, but I do know Shawntae Spencer knocked the socks off of scouts at Pittsburgh's Pro Day as well.

Crabtree had 23 catches of over 25 yards his freshmen season. To think the men can't occasion go deep is absurd. Anquan Boldin is a perfect comparision to Crabtree. Fitzgerald is better at adjusting to the ball then anyone I've ever seen so I wouldn't put him in his class.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
12-17-2008, 03:41 PM
On Crabtree: This isn't Madden. It is certainly NOT the case that the only way to catch a deep ball is to have a guy with 95+ speed agaisnt a slow corner. There are these things called ball skills, you know, when the ball is in the air how they adjust to catch it, and those decide how good of a deep threat they are. Or else Troy Williamson would be a machine.

bored of education
12-17-2008, 03:42 PM
On Crabtree: This isn't Madden. It is certainly NOT the case that the only way to catch a deep ball is to have a guy with 95+ speed agaisnt a slow corner. There are these things called ball skills, you know, when the ball is in the air how they adjust to catch it, and those decide how good of a deep threat they are. Or else Troy Williamson would be a machine.

Ted Ginn is a machine.

illmatic74
12-17-2008, 03:46 PM
I'm wondering where you get this Boldin has sub 4.45 speed from? He ran a 4.71 at the combine, and a 4.59 at his pro day. Even if you want to dismiss that due to injuries if you look at any scouting report of his going into the draft you see everyone of them saying he's a possession receiver who can only occasionally separate deep.

Onto Larry Fitzgerald. Fitz ran a 4.63 at the combine and a 4.47 at his pro day. Pro day numbers can be tricky. I remember one year everyone was raving about Carriker's pro day numbers saying how he ran a 4.7 (compared to a 4.9 at the combine). Only to look up that a white fullback also ran a low 4.3 forty there as well. My point is there's fast track that lead to inflated numbers. It's hard to go back 5 years and see how everyone did that day, but I do know Shawntae Spencer knocked the socks off of scouts at Pittsburgh's Pro Day as well.

Crabtree had 23 catches of over 25 yards his freshmen season. To think the men can't occasion go deep is absurd. Anquan Boldin is a perfect comparision to Crabtree. Fitzgerald is better at adjusting to the ball then anyone I've ever seen so I wouldn't put him in his class.This is why 40 times are overated.

jnew76
12-17-2008, 04:35 PM
Harvin vs. Maclin -

Size - Maclin is at least 6' tall, while Harvin is around 5'10". Maclin's height makes him a little more of a prototypical WR prospect in the NFL, but smaller receivers have had success in the NFL recently.

Speed - So close, but I will take Maclin straight line in pads. He has the best 5 yard burst I have seen in a WR recently.

Lateral Quickness - Harvin, no question. No one is better laterally than Harvin. Maclin is not as dynamic as some from a lateral quickness standpoint. He is more of a one cut and burst guy.

Hands - Maclin shows better hands IMO. Neither have great hands, but Maclin shows more impressive hands away from his body. Makes more catches over the middle in traffic as well.

Route Running - Neither are as polished as they need to be. Neither have a variety of routes in their repetoire. I think it is a tie and cannot be determined. I like Harvin's lateral quickness to develop into a route running weapon. Both have to prove they can beat the jam in the NFL.

Production - As a receiver, Maclin in a landslide. He simply has more experience at the position and plays it at a consistently higher level than Harvin.

Return Ability - Maclin is a weapon in the return game and was rarely kicked to this year. The emergence of Brandon James at Florida relegated Harvin to be a non-factor in the return game.

Injuries - Harvin is also like a Ferrari... When he is healthy and tuned up, he is scary good. One thing goes wrong, and Harvin is in the shop for a while. Maclin played through a number of nagging injuries, but played none the less. He is simply more durable than Harvin.

Overall - Maclin is just better and more of a weapon overall. Harvin is dynamic, and has an NFL future in a certain role. Maclin has the ability to be a #1 WR in 2 years. I question whether or not Harvin will ever be more than a slot guy, but he could be an elite slot WR.