Bucs 2009 Draft Thread

[Beans]

Yeah, yeah, early, I know, whatever.

I'll start this off with a pretty broad question: What are our major needs, and who are some possible choices to fill them?

My take:

WR: Pretty obvious here. Bryant's about the only guy on the team who could even be seen as a #1. Galloway seems to have lost his touch, Clayton's improved a little but really won't be anything more than a #3. Stovall hasn't shown anything at all since we drafted him, except a few tackles on special teams. Dexter Jackson, enough said.

Who we need: Crabtree (if he drops, somehow), Maclin, Heyward-Bey, Harvin, basically any 1st-2nd round value player. Someone's gotta sell me on Harvin though,he seems like a DJax type to me and we all know how that turned out.


DT: Haye's solid, and Hovan's okay, but the Carolina game really exposed that we need an upgrade here. We've got Greg Peterson who could be a project, but it looks like he's getting more plays at DE.

Who we need: I don't really know any DT's in this draft. >%) We should really throw the big bucks at Haynesworth in FA, though.


Thoughts, etc

[etk]

We need someone to push and replace Clayton at X receiver. We need Michael Crabtree. If we can't get him, then we should move Bryant to X and draft Harvin or Maclin. If we can't get one of those 3 WRs, I like Byrd, Massaquoi and Tate/Foster from UNC. There's also some good underclassmen possibilities like Kenny Britt. Jordan Shipley would be a good fit as well....he's a hard-working do-it-all receiver like Bryant. Galloway should retire at this point because Gruden can't find a use for him and he doesn't try when he's on the field.

Harvin is nothing like either Jackson from last year. He's a solid 190-200 lbs. of muscle at just under 6'. He has every ounce of athletic ability you can ask for to go along with great balance and playmaking ability. He's not a north-south guy like Dexter and he's not a frail elusive guy like DeSean. He can make you miss, run by you, or drive his legs through contact. Go watch any of his youtube videos from last year and you'll see what I mean, except now he's bigger, stronger and more experienced.

I explained our DT situation earlier. I think Hovan is the odd man out, and if he stays than it's Peterson because he hasn't done much.

Haynesworth would be nice, but first we have to make sure we have the money to pay our young players. We don't want to have to choose between some of our in-house guys like we have in the past (Dunn, Lynch, Sapp). Peria Jerry and SenDerrick marks are the cream of the crop at DT for us with Terrance Taylor just behind. Oklahoma has a couple good underclassmen DTs.

Tyson Jackson and Henry Melton are 2 possibilities at DE. We need another big guy who can help against the run, but there aren't many available in the draft. FA will likely provide us with an extra DE because right now we only have 3.5.

Lingering QB issues are still present, maybe more than ever. We need another RB, but which brand depends on Cadillac/Dunn situation. Jeremy Trueblood needs to be replaced, and we need depth regardless on the line. Our LB depth is weak. We need another corner.

Lots of holes to fill. Our young backups do not look ready to take the next step (aside from Talib & Piscitelli).

[Captain Fear]

Its hard to argue with our need at DT right now, but a capable offense would help encourage other teams to throw the ball from time to time.

The three positions I'd like to see us target are as follows...

QB - My disgust with Griese's performance today makes me really want a QB to look forward too. I have high hopes for Johnson still, but I can't put any faith in a 5th round pick until he proves otherwise. Sign Garcia for 2 more years and draft someone quality to develop in behind.

OT - Penn has been more than serviceable, but could still be upgraded. Trueblood has struggled, no need to say more. If we ever invest in a young QB, I would like to see our tackles improved upon.

WR - Probably our most glaring need. However, the emergence of Bryant has made this more luxury than outright need. Galloway's been battling injuries since the end of last season. I thought he was done many times in his career. A healthy offseason may help his revival if he decides to come back. If he doesn't, hopefully we find a replacement.

At this point, I don't favor any of these positions over the other. When our draft pick comes around, I hope we choose the player with the most value at these positions. DT can also be thrown in the mix if the right player is there.

[etk]

Why is it that "Penn can be upgraded"? Just because he was an UDFA doesn't mean he's not good. Sears, Joseph and Trueblood all get beat more than him and they don't go against the RDEs (the best pass rushers). That sack he gave up to Abraham was just a ridiculous body-contorting diving effort. Our protection was fine besides that 1 play....Griese just refused to throw the ball on long passing situations. I think it would be pretty difficult to upgrade Penn without using a top-20 pick or $40 million+ on a FA. Drafting an OT wouldn't hurt, however, because Trueblood is garbage and we need a backup anyway. Penn needs to get more aggressive in the run game, that's all.

Galloway is probably in the doghouse. He gets on the field and doesn't even make an attempt to get the ball if it's not right in his hands. He also dropped a bunch. I think this is it for him at that age. Bryant is world's better than him and they play the same position in the offense.

I'm cool with WR, DE, DT or OT in the 1st. I'd add QB to the mix but that is unlikely considering what's available. I agree that value is the top priority for us this offseason.

[Captain Fear]

Why is it that "Penn can be upgraded"? Just because he was an UDFA doesn't mean he's not good. Sears, Joseph and Trueblood all get beat more than him and they don't go against the RDEs (the best pass rushers). That sack he gave up to Abraham was just a ridiculous body-contorting diving effort. Our protection was fine besides that 1 play....Griese just refused to throw the ball on long passing situations. I think it would be pretty difficult to upgrade Penn without using a top-20 pick or $40 million+ on a FA. Drafting an OT wouldn't hurt, however, because Trueblood is garbage and we need a backup anyway. Penn needs to get more aggressive in the run game, that's all.


Exactly, Penn's run blocking can certainly be upgraded. His pass blocking has been very good this season, but it is by no means top 10 in the league. If we are going to build our team as a running team, we need to have a mauler at LT. Penn does not even come close to filling that mould. Otah last season would have been perfect. If we can get someone as good as him or better, I say we take him, otherwise I wouldn't bother Penn is good enough. I'm not saying we need to draft an LT at any cost, only if the right value and fit was available. RT however, could be addressed in the 2nd+ round. If we did get a top LT in the draft, we could always move Penn, or the rookie to the right side. Don't know if he can handle power ends any better than Trueblood though. Either way, more strength at OT is needed.

[Caddy]

I want a Defensive Tackle and a Wide Receiver with our first two picks and I'm not too fussed about the order.

We need a force on the defensive line. Haye is solid, but Hovan provides nothing in the form of a pass rush and is merely solid as a run stuffer. A new face would certainly be welcomed.

Our problems at Receiver are well documented and I'm a big fan of Jeremy Maclin. I like the late 1st round receivers in the draft and wouldn't mind any of them to be honest.

After that DE and QB could be addressed. Griese sucks (I've said this 23642356345634563465 times), Garcia is almost finished and I don't think the FO has faith in McCown; Johnson is still a ? An extra DE certainly wouldn't go astray. You can never have enough pass rush.

[etk]

Exactly, Penn's run blocking can certainly be upgraded. His pass blocking has been very good this season, but it is by no means top 10 in the league. If we are going to build our team as a running team, we need to have a mauler at LT. Penn does not even come close to filling that mould. Otah last season would have been perfect. If we can get someone as good as him or better, I say we take him, otherwise I wouldn't bother Penn is good enough. I'm not saying we need to draft an LT at any cost, only if the right value and fit was available. RT however, could be addressed in the 2nd+ round. If we did get a top LT in the draft, we could always move Penn, or the rookie to the right side. Don't know if he can handle power ends any better than Trueblood though. Either way, more strength at OT is needed.

Rather not argue about the foolishness in upgrading a solid lineman (Penn), I'll agree that adding another quality OT would be a wise decision for other reasons.

Penn can handle power ends just fine. He was handling Peppers all game until they moved Peppers over Trueblood for premium rape. If we add another lineman, I think Penn should stay on the left because of the continuity and also because the new lineman is probably a better run blocker and we like to run behind Joseph.

[Bucs_Rule]

Garcia really dislikes Gruden and if he's given a starting gig with another team he will bolt. I don't think he'll be offered one, but resigning him isn't a sure thing. Plus at his age he might just retire.

If he leaves that completely screws everything up. I don't think their will be a good answer in the draft. Would be stuck with McCown competing against Johnson and hopefully some crappy free-agent QB like Grossman/Losman instead of Griese.

[etk]

Yeah, I don't understand that. Why does Gruden love to alienate his starting QB? Some things about Gruden just confuse me....he makes decisions that appear to go beyond winning football games. His infatuation with quarterbacks and "inability to marry one" is a huge issue and he could use some therapy sessions to get over these quirks.

[Caddy]

I feel out of the loop this year with the draft than any other year. Damn you work and Uni!!!

[Captain Fear]

Garcia really dislikes Gruden and if he's given a starting gig with another team he will bolt. I don't think he'll be offered one, but resigning him isn't a sure thing. Plus at his age he might just retire.

If he leaves that completely screws everything up. I don't think their will be a good answer in the draft. Would be stuck with McCown competing against Johnson and hopefully some crappy free-agent QB like Grossman/Losman instead of Griese.

If such a scenario did unfold, and we were left without Garcia or an adequate FA signing, would it be worth mortgaging this year and next years draft to move up and draft Bradford or Stanford? As it has been mentioned, we have many wants, but few outright needs. Does that make now the right time to make a bold move like this? Galloway and Brooks' offseason decisions will also determine our draft day needs. However, I have more faith in our backup WRs and LBs than in our QBs. Its also easier to fill those positions in the draft or FA. A stud QB would help our ability to lure a big name WR if one was available in FA. The likes of Chad Johnson would never come to Tampa to have Garcia lob ducks at him once or twice a game (whether we'd want him is another question but he serves the example).

Also, I don't think its fair to judge Gruden until he has had a real QB under center for a couple seasons. The list of Tampa QBs he has had is absolutely pathetic. That said, Gruden is known for turning chicken **** into chicken salad, so maybe an elite QB is a waste in the Gruden system.

We will unlikely have the ammo to move into the top 5, but if an elite QB slips beyond I think we should consider some type of package. Personally, I enjoy following the draft too much to sacrifice a future 1st rounder, but I desperately want to see us improve at QB. That said, if a Front Office is making moves out if desperation, they're probably in trouble.

Many things will change between now and draft day, but I think moving up for the right QB is something we should strongly consider. Hopefully a Brady Quinn'esc fall takes place, but we surely can't rely on that. How much would you be willing to give?

[etk]

I feel out of the loop this year with the draft than any other year. Damn you work and Uni!!!

The draft "loop" is overrated. You end up falling for all the ups and downs the media feeds you and the hype that falls with it.

"So and so is top 3 material...so and so had a bad game and now he's undraftable".

You still have plenty of time to catch up. Watch as many bowl games as you can and then tune in for the East-West Shrine Game and Senior Bowl. Then try to see the Combine workouts (positional drills).

You do all that, and then you have multiple mental recordings of 100s of players live in action before the draft. Honestly, it's probably better not to read any player rankings or profiles before this stuff because it makes you biased. You actually have a good opportunity to form your own opinion without mainstream influence. Then you reflect and collaborate.

So yeah, no worries.

[Caddy]

The draft "loop" is overrated. You end up falling for all the ups and downs the media feeds you and the hype that falls with it.

"So and so is top 3 material...so and so had a bad game and now he's undraftable".

You still have plenty of time to catch up. Watch as many bowl games as you can and then tune in for the East-West Shrine Game and Senior Bowl. Then try to see the Combine workouts (positional drills).

You do all that, and then you have multiple mental recordings of 100s of players live in action before the draft. Honestly, it's probably better not to read any player rankings or profiles before this stuff because it makes you biased. You actually have a good opportunity to form your own opinion without mainstream influence. Then you reflect and collaborate.

So yeah, no worries.

This is true. I did not think about it that way at all.

I guess we'll see which players I cover with little prior knowledge of their prospect value. Last year it was DeSean (DAMNIT), this year is anyones guess at the moment.

[etk]

If a number of teams win/lose by tonight, we could have the 16th pick. Ton of possibilities now.

[Caddy]

We deserve a higher pick for having played so terribly.

[Beans]

If a number of teams win/lose by tonight, we could have the 16th pick. Ton of possibilities now.

who would have to lose

[etk]

who would have to lose

Didn't go so well.

Jets & Redskins lost. Jets have lower opp. %.

If Denver wins tonight we'll jump one spot because playoff teams draft lower automatically if the records are the same.

Bears and Saints also lost, but that was before my post and I already took that into account. The Bears have a lower opp. % so they beat us. Saints are 8-8.

On a positive note, Eagles and Cardinals won.

Right now we're at pick 19. If Denver wins we move down to 18. The Jets and Bears are picking below us but the %s are close so maybe we'll get lucky with the adjusted # after this week.

We're picking higher than last year....woohoo. 9-3.....18/19.

[DJC]

I don't think we should go WR in the first, assuming Bryant returns. I agree that even with him coming back the receiving core is a bit shaky, with Clayton likely leaving in FA, Galloway looking like he's done, and Dexter being Dexter. That leaves us with Ike and Stovall as our only other receivers with experience. I like the depth of the class this year, and think we'd be better off waiting to pick up someone like Iglesias, Barden, Tate, etc. in the 2nd/3rd and picking up a solid vet in FA to round up the core.

The two needs I'd like to see addressed in the 1st this year are the DLine or a QB. My 1st choice would be Mark Sanchez at QB. I think if he declares we could get a steal and our franchise QB at #19. The only other QB I like early in the draft after Stafford/Bradford is Nate Davis, and I'd consider him with our 2nd if he came out. It doesn't look like Sanchez will come out, so we should turn to the Dline with our 1st.

Obviously our rush defense needs to be addressed as well as DT, so I think Gerald McCoy would make the next best pick. Peria, and Marks are also possibilities here if he's gone/doesn't declare

Without going to much more indepth, here's my realistic mock...

...if Sanchez declares

1 (#19) - Mark Sanchez, QB USC
2 (#50) - Fili Moala, DT USC (alt: Evander Hood)
3 (#81) - Brandon Tate, WR North Carolina (alt: Brian Robiskie)
4 (#117) - Derek Walker, DE Illinois (alt: Keenan Lewis, CB Oregon State)
5 (#148) - Mark Parson, CB Ohio (alt: Phillip Hunt, DE Houston)
6 (#179) - Andrew Gardner, OT Georgia Tech
6 (#186) - Marlon Lucky, RB Nebraska
7 (#210) - Corey Smith, OLB Cincinnatti

if Sanchez doesn't declare

1 (#19) - Gerald McCoy, DT Oklahoma
2 (#50) - Brandon Lafell, WR LSU (alt: Juaquin Iglesias)
3 (#81) - Sherrod Martin, CB Troy (alt: Kevin Barnes)
4 (#117) - Devin Moore, RB Wyoming (alt: Tyrell Sutton)
5 (#148) - Kaluka Maiava, LB USC
6 (#179) - Jason Watkins, OT Florida
6 (#186) - Jaison Williams, WR Oregon
7 (#210) - Jason Boltus, QB Hartwick

I could see a lot of other potential scenarios unfolding too. A WR like Maclin/Britt/Nicks with our 1st if Bryant is gone, going BPA with someone like Moreno with our 1st, a OT earlier, a RB taken in the 2nd/3rd depending on Dunn, etc. Still earlier and plenty of variables this offseason with resignings, retirements, and free agency so our situation could be completely different in a couple months.

[etk]

I don't think we should go WR in the first, assuming Bryant returns. I agree that even with him coming back the receiving core is a bit shaky, with Clayton likely leaving in FA, Galloway looking like he's done, and Dexter being Dexter. That leaves us with Ike and Stovall as our only other receivers with experience. I like the depth of the class this year, and think we'd be better off waiting to pick up someone like Iglesias, Barden, Tate, etc. in the 2nd/3rd and picking up a solid vet in FA to round up the core.

The two needs I'd like to see addressed in the 1st this year are the DLine or a QB. My 1st choice would be Mark Sanchez at QB. I think if he declares we could get a steal and our franchise QB at #19. The only other QB I like early in the draft after Stafford/Bradford is Nate Davis, and I'd consider him with our 2nd if he came out. It doesn't look like Sanchez will come out, so we should turn to the Dline with our 1st.

Obviously our rush defense needs to be addressed as well as DT, so I think B.J. Raji would make the next best pick. He seems to be rising up draft boards and could easily be taken before our pick. He's most known as a run stuffer, but he's got some quickness for his size too and can get to the QB. I came away impressed with him from what I saw in the bowl game the other day. McCoy, Peria, and Marks are also possibilities here if Raji is gone.

Without going to much more indepth, here's my realistic mock...

...if Sanchez declares

1 (#19) - Mark Sanchez, QB USC
2 (#50) - Fili Moala, DT USC (alt: Evander Hood)
3 (#81) - Brandon Tate, WR North Carolina (alt: Brian Robiskie)
4 (#117) - Derek Walker, DE Illinois (alt: Keenan Lewis, CB Oregon State)
5 (#148) - Mark Parson, CB Ohio (alt: Phillip Hunt, DE Houston)
6 (#179) - Andrew Gardner, OT Georgia Tech
6 (#186) - Marlon Lucky, RB Nebraska
7 (#210) - Corey Smith, OLB Cincinnatti

if Sanchez doesn't declare

1 (#19) - B.J. Raji, DT Boston College
2 (#50) - Brandon Lafell, WR LSU (alt: Juaquin Iglesias)
3 (#81) - Sherrod Martin, CB Troy (alt: Kevin Barnes)
4 (#117) - Devin Moore, RB Wyoming (alt: Tyrell Sutton)
5 (#148) - Kaluka Maiava, LB USC
6 (#179) - Jason Watkins, OT Florida
6 (#186) - Jaison Williams, WR Oregon
7 (#210) - Jason Boltus, QB Hartwick

I could see a lot of other potential scenarios unfolding too. A WR like Maclin/Britt/Nicks with our 1st if Bryant is gone, going BPA with someone like Moreno with our 1st, a OT earlier, a RB taken in the 2nd/3rd depending on Dunn, etc. Still earlier and plenty of variables this offseason with resignings, retirements, and free agency so our situation could be completely different in a couple months.

Pretty good analysis. I don't think Raji would be a smart pick in the 1st because he's basically a Ryan Sims clone. If we want a DT, we need a 3-down multi-dimensional lineman. Stopping the run is something that's done as a collective unit (especially in Tampa 2), but an impact pass rusher can make plays on his own and that's what we need. I'd rather go for Jerry or Marks, or a DE if a good one is available.

LaFell reminds me a lot of Clayton. Solid physical tools, awful hands. I'd much prefer Iglesias or someone else. WR is definitely a position to consider in the 1st though. 2 reliable pass-catchers would do wonders for our offense as opposed to 1 and a cast of mediocre bodies.

Martin/Barnes would be fine. I like Barnes better at this point.

Moore/Sutton would be fine. I prefer Moore but both fit what we need at RB. Hopefully Caddy will be healthy for next year, and I assume Dunn will retire. Who knows?

Maiava is a good player who I'd like us to develop. It's worth mentioning that picking him would give us 4 young backups, however. 5 if you include McCoy but he's never going to compete for a starting spot.

Williams is that same big possession guy that Gruden has struggled with, so I'm iffy on that one. Watkins is a good pick. Boltus is kind of a waste considering the depth we have already. I'd rather see us take a shot at an OL/DL or WR.

Looking through this draft makes me realize that we don't have enough picks to fill all our needs. FA will help but we're gonna have to trade down or be forced not to take any "luxury" picks.

I'd love to get Sanchez, but I don't see it happening. Just looking at the picks....Hood is much better than Moala. Hood is probably the most athletic pass rushing DT in the draft, whereas Moala is lanky and stiff and I doubt he makes an impact as a pass rusher or run stuffer. Tate would be a good pick. Robiskie is decent but the 2nd is a bit high. I don't know much about Walker, but I like Will Davis a lot from the same team. I like Lucky a lot as a late rounder. I don't like Hunt for us because we don't really have room for 3 edge rushers.

[DJC]

Pretty good analysis. I don't think Raji would be a smart pick in the 1st because he's basically a Ryan Sims clone. If we want a DT, we need a 3-down multi-dimensional lineman. Stopping the run is something that's done as a collective unit (especially in Tampa 2), but an impact pass rusher can make plays on his own and that's what we need. I'd rather go for Jerry or Marks, or a DE if a good one is available.

LaFell reminds me a lot of Clayton. Solid physical tools, awful hands. I'd much prefer Iglesias or someone else. WR is definitely a position to consider in the 1st though. 2 reliable pass-catchers would do wonders for our offense as opposed to 1 and a cast of mediocre bodies.

Martin/Barnes would be fine. I like Barnes better at this point.

Moore/Sutton would be fine. I prefer Moore but both fit what we need at RB. Hopefully Caddy will be healthy for next year, and I assume Dunn will retire. Who knows?

Maiava is a good player who I'd like us to develop. It's worth mentioning that picking him would give us 4 young backups, however. 5 if you include McCoy but he's never going to compete for a starting spot.

Williams is that same big possession guy that Gruden has struggled with, so I'm iffy on that one. Watkins is a good pick. Boltus is kind of a waste considering the depth we have already. I'd rather see us take a shot at an OL/DL or WR.

Looking through this draft makes me realize that we don't have enough picks to fill all our needs. FA will help but we're gonna have to trade down or be forced not to take any "luxury" picks.

I'd love to get Sanchez, but I don't see it happening. Just looking at the picks....Hood is much better than Moala. Hood is probably the most athletic pass rushing DT in the draft, whereas Moala is lanky and stiff and I doubt he makes an impact as a pass rusher or run stuffer. Tate would be a good pick. Robiskie is decent but the 2nd is a bit high. I don't know much about Walker, but I like Will Davis a lot from the same team. I like Lucky a lot as a late rounder. I don't like Hunt for us because we don't really have room for 3 edge rushers.

I could accept Peria or Marks too with our 1st, just not sure the value is there. McCoy would be great, but not sure he's coming out and he'll probably be gone by our pick anyways. Like you said, if there's better value at DE I think we go that way. I'm hoping for Greg Hardy if we do go end. Also most likely to be off the board by our pick, but like Talib last year, some see him as a top 10 talent but could fall due to some character concerns.

Wide receiver is definitely a strong possibility, just not sold on it at this point in the 1st. Just think there's too many other holes that need to be addressed first. And like I mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of the depth at WR in this class and feel like we can get a very solid starter later.

I'm assuming Dunn retires too. If he does, finding a replacement for him in the draft wouldn't be a bad idea. I like Caddy as much as anybody else, just can't rely too much on him at this point. Clifton could develop into an option, but he needs to get rid of his fumbling problem first. It'd be nice to get someone like Slaton in middle of the draft this year, we deserve it after the DJax/Moore picks last year.

Yeah, LB isn't really a big need for the draft, I just Maiava and think he'd be too good to pass up at that point. Most likely something we'd look at in FA though in adding some depth with a vet.

I'll admit Sanchez is more of a pipe dream than anything else, but I just thought I'd throw it out there to see what everyone else thought about him. I'm a Ziggy fan and I'd be happy to get him in the 2nd, I just saw something about Moala being a perfect fit for the Tampa-2 so thought he was worth a mention. And I agree that the 2nd is a little high for Robiskie, that's why I had him as the alternate pick for our 3rd ;) . Lucky seems like he could be a real steal for us. His value is way down because of this year, but I like what he showed last year, especially his ability as a receiver.

I'm hoping we wake up in FA and sign Suggs. We signed a big FA DE once in Simeon and that worked at pretty damn well, why not try it again? I'd like for us to make a run at Sproles too in case Dunn retires.

[etk]

My bad on Robiskie. I like your DJax/Moore comment. It's only fair.

[woodnick]

Hey guys, theres a forum mock thats being set up if anybody is interested. There are still something like 12 GM spots available if people are interested.

For people that haven't participated in a forum mock in the past they should check it out, they are tons of fun.

Sign-up deadline is tonight, so try to hurry.


http://www.draftcountdown.com/forum/...t=28445&page=3

[TRJ997]

I believe that a franchise QB is our biggest need and will be the difference between us winning a super bowl and being one-and-done in the playoffs over the coming seasons. What do you think about trading up for Bradford should he make it to 10-12? According to the Draft Value Chart, the value of our 1st and 2nd round picks is enough to get us to around 10. I'm not 100% sold on Bradford yet, but if he truly has franchise QB potential I'd love to see us make a strong move to go after him (like Denver did with Cutler).

[etk]

Not in favor of trading up for anyone. We have way too many needs.

[Bruce Banner]

Trade the team for Stafford.

[Bucs_Rule]

I"d be happy making that trade. Its really hard to win the Super Bowl without a Franchise QB. I don't want to wait until the team has another horrible year to draft one.

[dbtb135]

I'm thinking something along the lines of Marks/Jerry/Maclin or possibly a QB in round 1 depending on the value of who's left. I'd like to find a DE later, but I'm not a big fan of the class as is. I like Barwin, but I think he's gone by mid-2nd with the DE class the way it is now. It's just really crappy IMO after Brown/Johnson/Selvie/Jackson. There's obviously still some talent there, but I don't think it compares to some of the recent DE classes. Which hurts because DE has become a bigger need as the season went on. TE or RB could be a secondary need. RB SEEMS like a bigger need, but once Earnest comes back healthy it won't be a top priority. Of course, everyone is going to want a fast playmaker, but it's not really the biggest hole we have right now. TE would seem to have less talent, but maybe a bigger affect with how little we throw the ball deep and with Stevens possibly leaving via FA. LB really isn't a need. Safety really isn't a need. CB could get us very good value in round 2-4, but I don't know if the staff is going to use such a premium pick there unless P-Buc isn't re-signed. OL is finished, if we use another top 3 round pick there I'm going to blow. I think our needs are:

UT
QB
LDE
FL
TE
CB
RB
KS

[etk]

I agree, sort of. I think you're underrating our TEs and overrating the OL & LBs. Smith, Stevens and Gilmore are all solid and the depth is nice. The chances of us finding an upgrade in the draft are very low. We should keep all 3 and hold off on that position for at least another year.

The OL is definitely not set. Trueblood is a weak link and we need to find him some competition. Our depth is also very weak. I could definitely see us drafting or signing someone to bring insurance at the very least.

We appear to be set at LB, but I see concerns. None of our backups have looked all that good, Brooks is deteriorating and June is mediocre. If Ruud gets injured our season is pretty much lost. Only Hayward has looked anything short of horrible when he's playing.

How can you be so sure that UT is the need and not NT? Hovan is the weak link at DT and finding a replacement for him is crucial. Jerry is a perfect fit imo. I like Marks but Haye/Wilkerson/Carter>Hovan/Sims. Peterson does not appear to be a factor.

The needs are : DT, LDE, QB, X receiver, CB and then RB, LB and OL as depth possibilities.

I have no clue how to arrange the major needs. WR and DL would be a good start, but QB is an option if available. CB could be a mid-round fill.

[Merlin]

If Moreno or Beanie Wells were to drop to us, should we pull the trigger? (FA withstanding)

I know our biggest need is up front (defense) but looking at our RB's health and age issues, I'd be hard pushed not to select one or the other?

Thoughts.....

[etk]

Both backs are overrated. Moreno=slight upgrade over Cadillac. Wells=slight upgrade over Graham.

Not worth a 1st rounder for that.

[Caddy]

Both backs are overrated. Moreno=slight upgrade over Cadillac. Wells=slight upgrade over Graham.

Not worth a 1st rounder for that.

Correct.

I think we have far to many needs at the moment to even consider drafting a RB. I would even look at possibly a trade down to someone coveting one of these guys if that were at all possible.

[Bruce Banner]

I'd have QB as a 2nd or 3rd need, not 1st, imo. Mainly because I know we have no shot at the elite talent.

[Babylon]

I'd have QB as a 2nd or 3rd need, not 1st, imo. Mainly because I know we have no shot at the elite talent.


As far as value goes what would be the price to get to #1? My guess is 1st and 2nd this year and 1st next year. Would that do it?

[Bruce Banner]

As far as value goes what would be the price to get to #1? My guess is 1st and 2nd this year and 1st next year. Would that do it?

Me and you have been on this same wavelength a while Babylon. I think it would take more (like another 2nd and a 4th or something comparable to that), but I would do it.

[Babylon]

Me and you have been on this same wavelength a while Babylon. I think it would take more (like another 2nd and a 4th or something comparable to that), but I would do it.

You know it isnt going to happen, you could maybe see a team coming from a top 10 spot and moving up but playoff caliber teams dont see the need to make that kind of a bold move. They'll never get to the Superbowl with what they have we know that.

[Bruce Banner]

You know it isnt going to happen, you could maybe see a team coming from a top 10 spot and moving up but playoff caliber teams dont see the need to make that kind of a bold move. They'll never get to the Superbowl with what they have we know that.

Which sucks. The Bucs are in a terrible position. They have to tank in the near future in order to secure elite talent. but........

Based on Bruce Allen's comments in his most recent press conference (which can be found on the front page of www.buccaneers.com), he doesn't think the Bucs need elite talent at the QB position anyways...He doesn't consider the position "premium" or of any greater worth than any other position on the field.

[etk]

I'd have QB as a 2nd or 3rd need, not 1st, imo. Mainly because I know we have no shot at the elite talent.

Mark Sanchez would be a great pick....Nate Davis as well.

Those guys are good.

and Bruce Allen is ********.

[Caddy]

I want a new QB. :(

[Babylon]

I'd give even money that they would strongly consider Sanchez and Bradford if they were there but they wouldnt be trading up to try to get to the top.

[manilavanilla]

hey guys, long time first time.

personally i'd like to see us go after Haynesworth hard this offseason. I realize he'd cost a lot of money and normally I don't particularly like the idea of going after free agents and spending a ton of dough but i think for certain players you can justify such a move. IF your franchise decides to spend money to pursue a high profile guy, the one MUST is he has to make those around him better. I feel like if we had HaynesW holding down the middle of the field we would see increased production out of Gaines and the rest of the line, plus decreased wear and tear on Brooks, Barber, etc. Putting pressure on the QB with the Tampa 2 makes life easier for everyone on the D-side of the ball and if anyone in the LEAGUE can do it, it's Haynesworth - let's go get him.

Since this is the Draft thread I think I should put my 2 cents in regarding the draft as well. Personally, the positions I'd like to see us go depend greatly on the offseason but since this is my thread lets pretend we did get Haynesworth. If so, I'd like to see us focus on the offensive side of the ball simply because I think we've done a good enough job drafting quality defensive players over the past couple years (t-jax, p-teli, aquib, ruud) to where we have a decent core of young guys to work with. On the other hand our players drafted on offense I don't feel as comfortable with (trueblood, d-jax2, caddy, stoval). We should also keep in mind that we were one of the top defenses in the league prior to the little meltdown at the end of the season however we just couldn't close in the red zone.

1st Round - In my dreams, one of the top 3 OT's (Smith, Oher, Monroe) falls to us but if a QB of the Bradford/Sanchez-type is there then I believe we have to take a him (as much as I like J.Johnson). Now if one of those mentioned aren't there and a value DT/DE is there we take him and NOT a WR. As much as I'd love to see DHB or Maclin in a bucs uni, I don't feel like our foundation for a good offense is solid enough to justify taking a WR (ie the lions and Calvin Johnson).

2nd round - (tired of typing, looking forward to posting again and even more-so reading all of your posts!)




later.

[dbtb135]

I agree, sort of. I think you're underrating our TEs and overrating the OL & LBs. Smith, Stevens and Gilmore are all solid and the depth is nice. The chances of us finding an upgrade in the draft are very low. We should keep all 3 and hold off on that position for at least another year.

Gilmore is a solid blocker. Receiving-wise, Stevens could be gone in FA. Even if our FO WANTS him back, he could go to a better team or more money or go back to the west coast. Smith is a disappointment who I think could be upgraded. It's confusing how the fanbase has held him in the same high regard since he came here, despite never improving at a noticeable rate. Everyone gets on Clayton and Stovall and Trueblood, etc etc when they don't play well, but Smith gets a pass for the 4th straight season while getting passed on the depth chart for a FA who got paid the league min?

If we can upgrade at TE, I'd be for it. I don't think it's the biggest need, but it is one that I can see being upgraded by a quick draft pick. Can't really say the same for WR or QB or other positions. I think the OL has had enough resources put into it. If we use another top pick on it, I'm giving up on this team. Our LBs are solid also. Ruud is set at Mike, and we've got June who can play WSLB at a high level and Black who can probably play SSLB pretty solid. Hayes looked good at WSLB in his short time there this season as a 20 year old rookie.

The OL is definitely not set. Trueblood is a weak link and we need to find him some competition. Our depth is also very weak. I could definitely see us drafting or signing someone to bring insurance at the very least.

Sign them then. If we're using a top 5 round pick on another OL after we used a 3rd round pick on a VERSATILE BACK-UP last year, then we're ********.

We appear to be set at LB, but I see concerns. None of our backups have looked all that good, Brooks is deteriorating and June is mediocre. If Ruud gets injured our season is pretty much lost. Only Hayward has looked anything short of horrible when he's playing.

June is playing solid at a position that doesn't fit him. He played great at WSLB in Indy. I don't see how you can call him mediocre. Ryan Nece was mediocre. Hayes played better than Hayward IMO. Both are great ST players.

I don't get the point of trying to upgrade the back-ups at positions like RT or MLB when our STARTERS at UT, NT, LDE, Flanker, and QB are all well below average. Even Gaines, though I'm giving him somewhat of a pass because he can actually rush the passer when Carter, Hovan, and Haye outside of last season cannot.

How can you be so sure that UT is the need and not NT? Hovan is the weak link at DT and finding a replacement for him is crucial. Jerry is a perfect fit imo. I like Marks but Haye/Wilkerson/Carter>Hovan/Sims. Peterson does not appear to be a factor.

I like Wilkerson, the rest is pretty much done. We were actually worse off in the run game when Hovan was out and Sims was in. Sims is useless. Haye's play dropped off entirely. He didn't get any rush this year, plain and simple. At UT of all positions, thats not going to cut it. Ask Booger. Carter is just about done. I think we need to upgrade both spots, but UT is the more pressing need IMO. We've made run stoppers out of less. See: Hovan before he came here. It's also easier to find a solid big body in the run game than to find an interior pass rush.

We'd draft Jerry and then play him at NT? Is you crazy? Of course he would go to UT.

The needs are : DT, LDE, QB, X receiver, CB and then RB, LB and OL as depth possibilities.

I have no clue how to arrange the major needs. WR and DL would be a good start, but QB is an option if available. CB could be a mid-round fill.

OL shouldn't even come into play at all this draft except a 7th rounder or UDFA. We've put the majority of our recent premium draft picks and FA money (Faine's contract being worth more than Bryant's, Stevens', Garcia's, P-Buc's, and June's combined) into the line. If we feel compelled to spend more on the upgrading the insurance policies on the line than we do to put solid starters at other positions of more significant need, then I don't trust our ability to run a team over a 4 year old's.

[etk]

Gilmore is a solid blocker. Receiving-wise, Stevens could be gone in FA. Even if our FO WANTS him back, he could go to a better team or more money or go back to the west coast. Smith is a disappointment who I think could be upgraded. It's confusing how the fanbase has held him in the same high regard since he came here, despite never improving at a noticeable rate. Everyone gets on Clayton and Stovall and Trueblood, etc etc when they don't play well, but Smith gets a pass for the 4th straight season while getting passed on the depth chart for a FA who got paid the league min?

If we can upgrade at TE, I'd be for it. I don't think it's the biggest need, but it is one that I can see being upgraded by a quick draft pick. Can't really say the same for WR or QB or other positions. I think the OL has had enough resources put into it. If we use another top pick on it, I'm giving up on this team. Our LBs are solid also. Ruud is set at Mike, and we've got June who can play WSLB at a high level and Black who can probably play SSLB pretty solid. Hayes looked good at WSLB in his short time there this season as a 20 year old rookie.



Sign them then. If we're using a top 5 round pick on another OL after we used a 3rd round pick on a VERSATILE BACK-UP last year, then we're ********.



June is playing solid at a position that doesn't fit him. He played great at WSLB in Indy. I don't see how you can call him mediocre. Ryan Nece was mediocre. Hayes played better than Hayward IMO. Both are great ST players.

I don't get the point of trying to upgrade the back-ups at positions like RT or MLB when our STARTERS at UT, NT, LDE, Flanker, and QB are all well below average. Even Gaines, though I'm giving him somewhat of a pass because he can actually rush the passer when Carter, Hovan, and Haye outside of last season cannot.



I like Wilkerson, the rest is pretty much done. We were actually worse off in the run game when Hovan was out and Sims was in. Sims is useless. Haye's play dropped off entirely. He didn't get any rush this year, plain and simple. At UT of all positions, thats not going to cut it. Ask Booger. Carter is just about done. I think we need to upgrade both spots, but UT is the more pressing need IMO. We've made run stoppers out of less. See: Hovan before he came here. It's also easier to find a solid big body in the run game than to find an interior pass rush.

We'd draft Jerry and then play him at NT? Is you crazy? Of course he would go to UT.



OL shouldn't even come into play at all this draft except a 7th rounder or UDFA. We've put the majority of our recent premium draft picks and FA money (Faine's contract being worth more than Bryant's, Stevens', Garcia's, P-Buc's, and June's combined) into the line. If we feel compelled to spend more on the upgrading the insurance policies on the line than we do to put solid starters at other positions of more significant need, then I don't trust our ability to run a team over a 4 year old's.

Agree wholeheartedly on Smith. He's our worst TE and could easily be upgraded. I'm so used to a lack of production from the position that I've been conditioned to accept mediocre receiving threats. Forgive me for that, but having 2 above-average TEs and 1 average one sounds good to me....at least compared to what I'm used to.

Again....agree on TE. Agree on OL (not using a high draft pick), but it's definitely not set as I said earlier. We have holes, and signing some depth would be the best bet. I'm not convinced about Black as SLB, but June would be an acceptable replacement for Brooks. I agree about Hayes and I think he has more potential than any of our backups. We still need more depth though.

June has been a mediocre SLB. For a guy who's undersized and makes few plays in the backfield, he also misses a lot of open-field tackles. I was a fan of his in Indy so I'm willing to give him a chance at WLB. I never really thought of that but thanks for bringing up the idea. Hayes played better than Hayward, but in limited minutes. I didn't include him in the discussion because there wasn't enough evidence.

Did I say I wanted us to prioritize upgrading backups over starters? I don't think I did. That's just one of our needs. I'm laying it all on the table. I'd like to find one more reliable OT and a better LB than McCoy....that's it. That's a luxury in the draft that I'm not sure we will have.

Jerry could play either position. People think just because he's explosive and athletic that he has to play UT, but he truly has the build, strength and leverage of a NT. If Haye is done like you say he is, than Jerry would go to UT. If Haye gets revived, then Jerry would be an upgrade over Hovan. Sims fell off late in the season. Up until that point he was a helpful contributor. We have to assess whether or not he's committed to the team over a full year, and his motor.

Again....I said OL was a secondary option. I understand your frustration with spending so many resources on the line, but the reality is that we still have holes. Trueblood is a liability as a pass protector and with his temper. Signing competition or switching some positions along the line wouldn't hurt. A late-round draft pick wouldn't do much so the draft is likely not an option unless we score big at other positions in FA (unlikely).

[dbtb135]

I just don't think the OL is going to come into play much this off-season, nor should it. We might pick up a UDFA or sign someone Torrin Tucker-like. The staff seems to be high on Lee as a swing tackle, they love Zuttah as everyone knows, and he's played both guard spots so far and played RT in college, and of course we have Sean Mahan........whatever that counts for......

We probably don't have anymore OL spots open, unless someone new beats out one of those 3. And not spending anything of worth on the line, I don't think that has much of a chance of happening. Though with our success in Penn and Davis, I won't say it's impossible. Just highly improbable.

Obviously, with him playing NT at Ole Miss, I don't think he's some one-dimensional pass rusher. I'd MUCH rather have Hovan/Jerry start than Jerry/Haye. While it would be a big upgrade to have someone who can rush the passer from the NT position, it would almost be a waste. The responsibilities are focused to the run and gap control too much for him to really let loose on the rush. Not only would Jerry be better utilized at UT, but having his improved run play next to Hovan who is still good against the run.

I actually thought Sims was our worst DT last year, not including Peterson or Carter who were both tweeners who I don't see roster-worthy next year. To be real honest, I'd rather give Dre Moore a chance at back-up NT.

We'd have to score at a LOT of positions to even entertain the idea of drafting another OL before the last round and a half (guys who historically under Gruden here don't even last a year).

[Merlin]

I think Jerry would be much better suited at UT.

[Merlin]

How would you guys feel about us drafting Rhett Bomar, I'd guess in the 3rd, maybe as high as the 2nd?

[Me Likey Rookies]

I was thinking about Bomar too but I guess he disapointed at the Senior Bowl. I would stay away from Josh Freeman because he has bust written all over him. Nate Davis is a guy I dont know anything about and is intriguing.

I think we might be better trying to find a guy through FA like Boller or Leftwich or resign McCown and then draft a QB next year.

In the first i like Raji/Jerry/Maclin/Harvin in that order.
In the second i like QB (if we fall in love with someone)/WR/RB

[etk]

No Bucs videos on your youtube...I'm a subscriber now.

[Beans]

i want maclin

[etk]

I want Nicks. Or Harvin. Depends what we do in FA. 2 1st rounders would be nice for Jerry and a WR.

[DJC]

I just finished watching the Skill challenge on DVR. I got a new draft strategy now. Draft Nicks in the 1st and Nate Davis in the 2nd. Trade Trueblood and another pick to get another 2nd and draft someone like Evander Hood or Paul Kruger.

[chapo123]

1. everette brown -
2. kenny britt - wr
3. donald brown - rb
4. marcus freeman - olb
5. curtis painter - qb
6. tony fiametta - fb
7. kevin brock - te

[etk]

NONONONONONO

Everette Brown is purely a pass rushing DE. We can't afford to spend a 1st round pick on another one of those.

Britt is decent. I'm not a fan, but I doubt he'll be available in the 2nd,

We don't need another decent RB. We have 3. No sense wasting a pick on a 4th just to add to the rotation.

Freeman is a good pick but there's no chance he slips that far.

Painter, Fiametta and Brock make no sense. We don't need any of those positions that late in the draft. I don't understand the ideology of some fans where they think "oh we have a bunch of decent players at this position but no great ones so let's add another below-average player to the mix".

[chapo123]

the thing is, what are those decent players doing or have done?

[redbuc]

This one has some guys going in places I didn't expect, but they seem to make some sense. As a Bucs fan, I like Peria Jerry at 19, but part of me would rather have Larry English if the Bears didn't take him.

Here is a link.

<link removed>

What do you guys think?

[TRJ997]

If Nnamdi Asomugha hits free agency, how much is he worth to the Bucs. Talib looks good, but Ronde is done and Buchanon may not be resigned. I wouldn't be all that upset if we took a CB in the first round. I would be also be willing to give Nnamdi Asomugha a Haynesworth-like contract.

He only had 35 passes thrown his way in the 2007 season. He's the closest thing the NFL has to a pure shut down corner and no one ever throws at him. He and Talib would be a pretty exciting tandem for the next few seasons.

[Caddy]

Simply put, A LOT.

[Tampa 2 4 life]

If Nnamdi Asomugha hits free agency, how much is he worth to the Bucs. Talib looks good, but Ronde is done and Buchanon may not be resigned. I wouldn't be all that upset if we took a CB in the first round. I would be also be willing to give Nnamdi Asomugha a Haynesworth-like contract.

He only had 35 passes thrown his way in the 2007 season. He's the closest thing the NFL has to a pure shut down corner and no one ever throws at him. He and Talib would be a pretty exciting tandem for the next few seasons.

Can we have max deals in the NFL?

[zCaddyz]

Heres my hope for the draft
1.Brain Crushing or BPA
2.Fili Moala

That is all.

[Caddy]

Heres my hope for the draft
1.Brain Crushing or BPA
2.Fili Moala

That is all.

With our second being used on Kellen Winslow there is only a tiny chance Moala comes to Tampa. Combine that with the fact that I don't really see him as an ideal fit in the defense Bates is trying to develop.

[etk]

Heres my hope for the draft
1.Brain Crushing or BPA
2.Fili Moala

That is all.

Oh boy....

Brian Cushing is the most overrated player in the draft. He has really tight hips and will struggle with coverage and pursuit. He's not a Tampa LB by any means. Black and Hayes should get their shot at the job, so there's no need to spend our 1st on a LB with so many other needs out there.

I like Moala as a pass rusher, but he's lanky, stiff and struggles at the point of attack. We already have similar players in Peterson and Moore. Moala's best fit is in a 3-4. I don't think he's more than a situational guy in a 4-3.

At this point DT doesn't look like a position we're looking to address. We still have Haye, Hovan, Sims, Wilkerson, Peterson and Moore all locked up. Those guys can all be upgraded, but don't you think we would've let Sims go or cut someone by now if we wanted a DT? We've shown no interest in any FA DT except Haynesworth, so that's telling as well.

[roscoesdad27]

1) J. Gilbert d.e./d.t. san jose state
a justin tuck type player with tremendous athleticism...can play left end opposite adams in base defense and kick in to the u.t. position in nickel/dime packages....had a tremendous combine....sleeper

2) K. Mckinley w.r. s. carolina
productive w.r. with great speed and very good hands would be a great #2 to bryant...former q.b. who could possibly run the wildcat and is always good for some trick plays.

complete mock here
http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1533596&posted=1#post1533596

thoughts?

[etk]

I posted my thoughts in the thread already....yesterday.

[TRJ997]

For your viewing pleasure:

An animated short based on message board discussions between two Bucs fans.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=2009030623035437

[Caddy]

For your viewing pleasure:

An animated short based on message board discussions between two Bucs fans.

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch?e=2009030623035437

Haha pretty funny.

Anyone think we'll try and replace Bidwell this off-season?

[gpngc]

Don't crucify me for this...

Never made this connection but someone else did (don't know if it's been mentioned here yet): Raheem Morris coached a young Josh Freeman at KSU in 2006.

I know he was the DC and didn't work directly with him, but I'm just stating a fact...

[Caddy]

Don't crucify me for this...

Never made this connection but someone else did (don't know if it's been mentioned here yet): Raheem Morris coached a young Josh Freeman at KSU in 2006.

I know he was the DC and didn't work directly with him, but I'm just stating a fact...

That fact has been constantly posted by the guys at Pewter Report.

[etk]

That fact has been constantly posted by the guys at Pewter Report.

/facepalm.

Do you really think a newly appointed Head Coach for an NFL team is gonna draft a guy just because he coached on the other side of the ball for one year? Morris is not Nick Saban. Plus it's not like Freeman was much to write home about in 2006 anyway.

Although I do think it helps because Morris will have an idea of his habits as a human being off the field.

[manilavanilla]

I think we should take smith if he's there at #19.

needs:
DT - unless Raji falls to us, there's no one that I feel would fit into Bates system that's worthy of our first rounder

QB - if Sanchez falls then we grab him before the Jets do, otherwise nobody really does it for me.

DE - Maybe if T.Jackson or Brown falls but I think I'd still rather have Smith over both.

CB - Letting P.Buc go concerns me as we've got little depth. Mack may impress but I can see us bringing in a guy to compete and replace Ronde by next year. A.Smith looks like he can really play and having him and Talib for the next 10 years together would be gnarly.

[etk]

I agree about the impact of Alphonso Smith in our defense. It's a big turnaround from having a potential liability at corner for teams to pick on....to having 2 playmaking corners that can really benefit from our physical safeties that take away the deep threat. Smith and Talib are both very good at covering short routes which limits an opposing team's ability to produce long drives.

I'll be disappointed if we settle with a mediocre (or worse) CB unit.

[chapo123]

1. percy hervin - wr / morris said he wants points on the board, its going to take more than bryant, clayton, and winslow
3. sen'derrick marks - dt / they need to get younger and athletic here
4. james casey - te
6. quinn johnson - fb
7. kendall davis-clark - cb

[etk]

Uhh....

James Casey and Quinn Johnson? We don't need either position.

Marks is probably too small for our scheme.

Where's the DE? That's probably our biggest need.