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Matthew Jones
12-19-2008, 12:19 PM
These are somewhat loosely ranked especially towards the end, because it's tough to rank people at different positions, and players who play for very small schools.

1. LB Aaron Curry, Wake Forest
2. CB Malcolm Jenkins, Ohio St.
3. DE Brian Orakpo, Texas
4. OT Michael Oher, Mississippi
5. OT Eugene Monroe, Virginia
6. OT Jason Smith, Baylor
7. DE Tyson Jackson, Louisiana St.
8. LB James Laurinaitis, Ohio St.
9. LB Rey Maualuga, Southern Cal
10. FS William Moore, Missouri
11. DT B.J. Raji, Boston College
12. LB Clint Sintim, Virginia
13. DT Peria Jerry, Mississippi
14. OG Duke Robinson, Oklahoma
15. CB Alphonso Smith, Wake Forest
16. LB Brian Cushing, Southern Cal
17. FS Rashad Johnson, Alabama
18. WR Derrick Williams, Penn St.
19. CB Mike Mickens, Cincinnati
20. OG Herman Johnson, Louisiana St.
21. DE Michael Johnson, Georgia Tech
22. DE Connor Barwin, Cincinnati
23. TE Chase Coffman, Missouri
24. OC Max Unger, Oregon
25. CB Darius Butler, Connecticut
26. OC Alex Mack, California
27. CB Victor Harris, Virginia Tech
28. RB Javon Ringer, Michigan St.
29. OT Jamon Meredith, South Carolina
30. LB Clay Matthews, Southern Cal
31. LB Marcus Freeman, Ohio St.
32. WR Juaquin Iglesias, Oklahoma
33. SS Patrick Chung, Oregon
34. CB Kevin Barnes, Maryland
35. LB Darry Beckwith, Louisiana St.
36. RB Rashad Jennings, Liberty
37. RB James Davis, Clemson
38. DE Larry English, Northern Illinois
39. DT Fili Moala, Southern Cal
40. OC Jonathan Luigs, Arkansas
41. OT Troy Kropog, Tulane
42. DT Ron Brace, Boston College
43. CB Sherrod Martin, Troy
44. WR Mike Thomas, Arizona
45. DT Vance Walker, Georgia Tech
46. CB Bruce Johnson, Miami (FL)
47. SS Michael Hamlin, Clemson
48. OT Fenuki Tupou, Oregon
49. DE Pannel Egboh, Stanford
50. OT Phil Loadholt, Oklahoma

ThePudge
12-19-2008, 02:33 PM
I like the board. I firmly believe Larry English should be higher than 38th among Seniors and Egboh has no business in the Top 50 here. Still, I must say nothing that really catches my eye in the top 15-20 or so. I will, of course, express my opinion and you can feel free to tell me why you disagree.

I think should be higher:

- As I mentioned, OLB/DE Larry English. I, too, am annoyed by some of the un-warranted hype. Still, English has not exactly come out of nowhere to those who watch MAC football. English is a great pass-rusher who is very athletic. We are not talking about Dan Bazuin here, but rather, perhaps James Harrison (if we're doing MAC --> NFL comparisons.) English has the size, strength, and yes, athleticism to be a very good 3-4 OLB. At 4-3 DE, English brings some value as well. It is also conceivable that he could play SLB in a 4-3. Still, to properly utilize his quickness, instincts, and physicality, 3-4 OLB is the way to go. Realistically, English's stock could be anywhere when April rolls around. If he tests a bit better than expected Mid-First Round is possible, but right now I see him as an Early-Mid 2nd Round pick. Over Connor Barwin due to experience and instincts.

- The two Centers, Mack and Unger, are up there with Nick Mangold in my book. Both are probably less experienced and have a bit less in terms of technique than the Jets' Pro Bowler, but they offer more in terms of versatility, size, and athleticism. These are two very good prospects that should have no problem finding a spot in Late Round 1-Mid Round 2.

- People hate Phil Loadholt. I used to, now I'm beginning to come around. He is, first and foremost, strictly a Right Tackle prospect at the next level. A punishing run-blocker, but also a rather solid pass-blocker. He reminds me, a bit of a bigger, thicker, slightly more athletic Jeremy Trueblood. The best comparison, in my mind may be Andrew Whitworth actually, though I think Whitworth offered a bit more discipline and versatility perhaps. I think, as long as he tests average, he should find a way into the Late 2nd-Mid 3rd.

- Michael Johnson - Packed with potential still, though raw and inexperienced. Will need to be coached well, but a difference-maker that has to be accounted for. Mid First-Early 2nd.

- Sherrod Martin is one of this years more versatile defensive backs. He is able to play CB or FS and has stepped up from the shadow of Leodis McKelvin. A Mid 2nd-Mid 3rd Round pick at either DB position.

I think should be lower:

- William Moore is a player that has seen his stock fall a bit. He has gone from a very good safety who is a great athlete, to a player with very good physical tools but a ways to go as a great safety. His instincts and skills in coverage could use some refining and to me he is starting to look a bit like former Georgia Bulldog Thomas Davis. Has gone, I think from an early-mid first round pick to a late first round pick, more in that 20-32 range, with a slight chance of falling to early Round 2.

- Derrick Williams is a player I've watched too much. He does have speed and adds value as a Kick Returner. However, is he a WR that adds value returning kicks? Or, is he a Kick Returner that adds value as a WR? Right now, I would say the latter. He is not yet a deep threat, nor does he run crisp routes, nor does he have reliable hands. He is a talent, but he is also the least polished receiver on his own team. I believe he deserves a chance in the NFL, but I don't trust him before the mid-late 3rd Round at the earliest.

- Rashad Johnson that high doesn't necessarily bother me, but a few guys you have him listed above does. That includes Max Unger, Michael Johnson, and Alex Mack specifically. I have Johnson pegged right now with a somewhat similar stock to former Alabama Safety Roman Harper. Harper's stock was in the mid 2nd-early 3rd range, though he went early 2nd. I think Johnson, a fairly similar player, could be in that same boat.

- Same deal with Chase Coffman who I see as a Late 2nd-Mid 3rd Round pick. I simply have a hard time seeing him go before Unger or Mack specifically.

- Mike Thomas - Undersized, shouldn't add much downfield or in the redzone. A #3-#4 receiver at best. Late 4th-5th Round

- Javon Ringer - Too much tread on the tires for the small, but physical runner. Mid 3rd-Mid 4th.

Left out?

- It may be a mistake, but no Brandon Pettigrew? From everything I've heard, despite off the field issues, Pettigrew is one of the most coveted Seniors in the draft. Some have him graded in the mid-late first. I would say late first-mid second myself. Still, a TE with dominating size, a great blocker and a threat as a receiver as well. The most complete Tight End to come out in years. A bigger, better blocking version of the Steelers Heath Miller. A very good prospect that is often forgotten.

- The second that comes to mind is Western Michigan Safety Louis Delmas who is really an enforcer in the middle. Delmas happens to be my second rated Senior safety at this point ahead of Alabama's Rashad Johnson. Delmas may be overrated by some but the man is a gamer. He's perhaps the draft's hardest hitting Safety, and a very intelligent and experienced player despite having average measurables.

- Georgia's Dannell Ellerbe has plenty of talent and shouldn't have much trouble fitting into the first three-four rounds despite character issues and a drop-off in production.

- Evander Hood is a bit overrated on these boards. However, in a weak DT class, Hood should have no problem fitting in as a Late 2nd-Early 4th Round pick at least. Has enough size and quickness to make an impact in the NFL.

- Louis Murphy has more receiver skills and better physical attributes than Derrick Williams. Though I don't necessarily have a problem with Williams over Murphy (due to the Florida WR factor) you have to ask how late that will drop the big, fast, talented Murphy. Don't forget Chad Jackson and Andre Caldwell still fit into the first three rounds. Murphy could realistically be a Late 2nd-Mid 3rd Round pick.



Still, good work. I do like it a lot, keep it up.

Matthew Jones
12-19-2008, 03:13 PM
- Larry English is someone who I haven't seen a lot of because of where he plays. I might change my evaluation of him later when I see more of him or he works out at the combine/pro day.

- Mack isn't nearly as physical as Mangold in my opinion, and his position kind of hinders him for me - I don't really see much value in first round centers. Unger could potentially sneak into the first.

- I have Loadholt's stock in the third round right now - he's a pretty good right tackle prospect but I don't feel as though he can pass block worth a damn. I've never been impressed with him in that regard.

- It's not even that he's raw, it's just that he's unproductive. You expect guys like that to get by on athleticism in college even if they aren't polished, but he doesn't have many big games, second rounder.

- Sherrod Martin is a pretty good prospect, my stock for him is most likely in the early third round, so I think we have fairly similar views on him at this point.

- I still see William Moore as a first-round value and he will have a long career in the NFL. Regardless of where he is drafted based on his senior year, I still have him as a top value in the draft.

- Derrick Williams is a nice project at wide receiver who can really contribute as a running back and in the return game. I believe in drafting to create mismatches and he is someone that can do that.

- Rashad is a lot more productive than Michael Johnson, which is why I have him there, and I explained that center is just not valuable enough for me. Production isn't everything, but I want to see something.

- Coffman may not have as high a draft stock as Mack or Unger, but I'd take him first because he is able to provide quarterbacks with a nice safety valve and extra pass-catcher.

- Mike Thomas is someone who could develop into an excellent slot receiver, really one of the most underrated positions on the field. I could see him becoming another Walker or Stokley.

- Ringer could even go as low as the fifth round because of the whole Mike Hart type deal with him, but aside from size, he really has pretty much anything you'd want in a running back.

- The legal issues and possible jail time are the reason I didn't include Brandon Pettigrew. He might make it into my top 75 or so though, but I don't want to draft someone high who might not even play.

- I did actually kind of pass over Delmas, and I might be adding him when I update the rankings - haven't seen a ton of him. Thanks for the heads-up, I'll check it out.

- Ellerbe was nowhere to be found when I watched Georgia games and he really looks like a pot-bellied safety out on the field, not someone who can really bring it. Character issues as well.

- I considered Hood but I personally preferred Vance Walker and he ended up taking Hood's spot later on in the rankings - Vance is a pretty disruptive player from what I've seen.

- You probably don't want to get me started on Louis Murphy - he wouldn't make my top five at wide receiver and most likely not my top ten. Not especially productive, doesn't run good routes, Florida receiver.

ThePudge
12-19-2008, 03:57 PM
- I have Loadholt's stock in the third round right now - he's a pretty good right tackle prospect but I don't feel as though he can pass block worth a damn. I've never been impressed with him in that regard.

- It's not even that he's raw, it's just that he's unproductive. You expect guys like that to get by on athleticism in college even if they aren't polished, but he doesn't have many big games, second rounder.

- Derrick Williams is a nice project at wide receiver who can really contribute as a running back and in the return game. I believe in drafting to create mismatches and he is someone that can do that.

- Rashad is a lot more productive than Michael Johnson, which is why I have him there, and I explained that center is just not valuable enough for me. Production isn't everything, but I want to see something.

- Ringer could even go as low as the fifth round because of the whole Mike Hart type deal with him, but aside from size, he really has pretty much anything you'd want in a running back.

- The legal issues and possible jail time are the reason I didn't include Brandon Pettigrew. He might make it into my top 75 or so though, but I don't want to draft someone high who might not even play.

- You probably don't want to get me started on Louis Murphy - he wouldn't make my top five at wide receiver and most likely not my top ten. Not especially productive, doesn't run good routes, Florida receiver.

Loadholt is sometimes, well, unfairly biased against. People think because he is so big he can't even turn around without breaking a sweat. I've watched him quite a few times now. He will be a liablity against the Robert Mathis' and Dwight Freeney's of the world, but he is a rather solid pass-protector. Don't forget he's protecting the Heisman trophy winner who threw for almost 50 Touchdowns this regular season. Bradford was dropped only eleven times all season. Trent Williams is the O-Lines real standout, along with Duke Robinson, but Loadholt has done his job against the likes of Connor Barwin and Jerry Hughes, holding each to very limited production (including 0 sacks.) If he can prove at the Senior Bowl that he can stick with the country's elite pass-rushers, he could see his stock really elevate.

- Michael Johnson disappears at times, his stamina isn't where it should be by his Senior season, he can be over-powered. Still, he has been productive. 43 Tackles, 15 TFL, 7 Sacks 2 FF, 1 Int, 1 Td, and ranks second on his team in PD with 8 and BrUp with 7 and has blocked a kick. Sure, he doesn't have as many sacks or TFL as Everette Brown or Brian Orakpo, but his impact is largely felt any time an opposing QB tries to throw the ball. He also has more tackles than Brown, Orakpo, and well more per game than Greg Hardy. He has progressed as a player, yet he is a work in progress nonetheless. A player that is made his impact felt in several areas of the game. People are very hard on him because they expected All-American numbers, but in his first year of being a full-time starter what do you expect?

- The truth is that Derrick Williams is just not a very good football player, and due to his size and considerable speed as well, Louis Murphy could likely create more mismatches in the passing game. Williams runs piss-poor routes, like Murphy, but unlike Murphy he has a hard time catching the ball when it is in his hands. 40 rec 451 yds 11.3 avg 3 Td (Williams) compared to 36 rec 611 yds 17.0 avg 6 Td's (Murphy). The production arrow really doesn't go your way there as Murphy has been the top receiver on his team above Percy Harvin/Aaron Hernandez, while Williams is #2 to Deon Butler, a relatively average player. Williams has a slight speed advantage and advantage in the return game, yet Murphy is bigger, with better hands, and better big play ability. They play in somewhat similar offenses this season, a spread which includes many gadget plays so the Florida receiver thing is tough to separate the two with. Speaking of gadget plays, Williams is not a physical or shifty runner, relying on speed alone, so it is unlikely he'll find a role there at the next level. I'm not high on either, but perhaps you have not seen enough of Derrick Williams, a good athlete who happens to play football.

Aside from size there's no problem to Ringer? What about his lack of breakaway speed, lack of elite shiftiness (which could be an issue for a player his size) and the tread on his tires? I have no real problem with Ringer as a player, but as a prospect he simply doesn't do it for me.

Legal issues aside, Pettigrew is likely a Top 10-15 pick. He is that good. He has blocked against the best and done it well. He is also, simply put, well above average as a receiver with great hands and a bit of ability to create after the catch, in addition to being able to create mismatches with his size. He may be getting lost in a good year for Tight End's but he is a first round talent with a seventh round attitude. They should balance out and based on talent, size, and the growing importance of a Tight End that can actually block, I would be shocked to say the least if he made it into the Second Day.

DiG
12-19-2008, 04:01 PM
rashad jennings > javon ringer fo show!

other than that im surprised to see coffman and herman that high. id take unger or max over herman personally.

Matthew Jones
12-19-2008, 05:50 PM
Loadholt is sometimes, well, unfairly biased against. People think because he is so big he can't even turn around without breaking a sweat. I've watched him quite a few times now. He will be a liablity against the Robert Mathis' and Dwight Freeney's of the world, but he is a rather solid pass-protector. Don't forget he's protecting the Heisman trophy winner who threw for almost 50 Touchdowns this regular season. Bradford was dropped only eleven times all season. Trent Williams is the O-Lines real standout, along with Duke Robinson, but Loadholt has done his job against the likes of Connor Barwin and Jerry Hughes, holding each to very limited production (including 0 sacks.) If he can prove at the Senior Bowl that he can stick with the country's elite pass-rushers, he could see his stock really elevate.

- Michael Johnson disappears at times, his stamina isn't where it should be by his Senior season, he can be over-powered. Still, he has been productive. 43 Tackles, 15 TFL, 7 Sacks 2 FF, 1 Int, 1 Td, and ranks second on his team in PD with 8 and BrUp with 7 and has blocked a kick. Sure, he doesn't have as many sacks or TFL as Everette Brown or Brian Orakpo, but his impact is largely felt any time an opposing QB tries to throw the ball. He also has more tackles than Brown, Orakpo, and well more per game than Greg Hardy. He has progressed as a player, yet he is a work in progress nonetheless. A player that is made his impact felt in several areas of the game. People are very hard on him because they expected All-American numbers, but in his first year of being a full-time starter what do you expect?

- The truth is that Derrick Williams is just not a very good football player, and due to his size and considerable speed as well, Louis Murphy could likely create more mismatches in the passing game. Williams runs piss-poor routes, like Murphy, but unlike Murphy he has a hard time catching the ball when it is in his hands. 40 rec 451 yds 11.3 avg 3 Td (Williams) compared to 36 rec 611 yds 17.0 avg 6 Td's (Murphy). The production arrow really doesn't go your way there as Murphy has been the top receiver on his team above Percy Harvin/Aaron Hernandez, while Williams is #2 to Deon Butler, a relatively average player. Williams has a slight speed advantage and advantage in the return game, yet Murphy is bigger, with better hands, and better big play ability. They play in somewhat similar offenses this season, a spread which includes many gadget plays so the Florida receiver thing is tough to separate the two with. Speaking of gadget plays, Williams is not a physical or shifty runner, relying on speed alone, so it is unlikely he'll find a role there at the next level. I'm not high on either, but perhaps you have not seen enough of Derrick Williams, a good athlete who happens to play football.

Aside from size there's no problem to Ringer? What about his lack of breakaway speed, lack of elite shiftiness (which could be an issue for a player his size) and the tread on his tires? I have no real problem with Ringer as a player, but as a prospect he simply doesn't do it for me.

Legal issues aside, Pettigrew is likely a Top 10-15 pick. He is that good. He has blocked against the best and done it well. He is also, simply put, well above average as a receiver with great hands and a bit of ability to create after the catch, in addition to being able to create mismatches with his size. He may be getting lost in a good year for Tight End's but he is a first round talent with a seventh round attitude. They should balance out and based on talent, size, and the growing importance of a Tight End that can actually block, I would be shocked to say the least if he made it into the Second Day.

A lot of Loadholt's "production" is likely because Bradford has such a quick release, though. Not to be a Patriots homer, but the offensive line suddenly looked a lot worse when they had Matt Cassel back there instead of Tom Brady, going from allowing 21 sacks last year with Brady to 45 so far this year with Cassel. I don't know how Loadholt would look with a mediocre quarterback back there. He also receives help from Duke Robinson which is pretty significant.

Johnson's stat-line is about half as good as Vernon Gholston's was at this point last year, and like Gholston, Johnson has serious issues in games. I've seen him make a sack during a game and not show up at all for the rest of the game except to make a couple of tackles in the running game. He doesn't always disrupt plays, he disrupts one out of maybe ten or fifteen passes. That's not substantial enough for me for someone with his level of talent.

Williams is decent at making the big-play - he has made a few highlight reel catches in my time watching him. I don't think he's a world-beater, but he's someone that has a lot to work with, and his ranking is around where I have some similar players like that, namely Michael Johnson. Williams is the clear #1 receiver on his team and deflects coverage away from Butler, who's what, 5'9"? Percy Harvin gets more carries than passes by the way. Williams is also a very physical runner for a receiver.

Ringer is more of a physical runner than anything, and he has respectable speed and wiggle. He's not Barry Sanders, but he doesn't need to be. There are plenty of smaller running backs that run inside in the NFL, and he could fit in pretty well as one of those in my opinion. When you look back on it, even Priest Holmes wasn't the fastest or biggest guy out there and had one of the best runs ever. He ran what, a 4.75 forty-yard dash?

Pettigrew doesn't make enough mismatches for me, and if he's convicted, a team won't even see him for four or five years. That's enough to scare me off from wasting a day one pick on him regardless of talent. Would you draft Pac-Man Jones or Chris Henry on the first day if you had a chance right now? I know I wouldn't, especially if they were currently facing jail time.