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NIPS
12-30-2008, 08:57 PM
1st off, get outta Indy and hold the combines at a real stadium with grass

2nd. NFL players dont run in shorts on sunday

Why the combines dont make players wear full gear during drills and 40 time is a complete fraud

A 5'11 185 lb WR might have a faster 40 time than a 6'2 200 lb WR but the latter might carry the pads better and post a faster 40 time than the 5'11 guy

If the 40 time is what shoots players up and down the boards, why the fake plastic cylicone implants?

I want real game time speed

I want it on grass, not some brown carpet

The 40 times at the combines are not "true 40 times"

If I'm an owner and you are talking about millions of dollars they shell out to guys based purely on their 40 times in short.

Fix it, and let the true numbers surface

Paranoidmoonduck
12-30-2008, 08:59 PM
As long as everyone's on the same level, I hardly think it's that big of a deal. Anyone drafting based on 40-times is going to get what's coming to them regardless of what surface the 40 was run on.

dabul-master
12-30-2008, 09:01 PM
Agreed, 40 times mean too much to scouts than they should

Crickett
12-30-2008, 09:04 PM
A 5'11 185 lb WR might have a faster 40 time than a 6'2 200 lb WR but the latter might carry the pads better and post a faster 40 time than the 5'11 guy

If the 40 time is what shoots players up and down the boards, why the fake plastic cylicone implants?

I want real game time speed

I want it on grass, not some brown carpet

The 40 times at the combines are not "true 40 times"

If I'm an owner and you are talking about millions of dollars they shell out to guys based purely on their 40 times in short.

Fix it, and let the true numbers surface

I'm sure Deion Sanders (4.21), Chris Johnson (4.24), Randy Moss (4.25), Champ Bailey (4.28) and Andre Johnson (4.32) would completely agree with you.

BmoreBlackByrdz
12-30-2008, 09:05 PM
They do have a huge impact but I've never clearly understood why..

Xonraider
12-30-2008, 09:18 PM
As long as everyone's on the same level, I hardly think it's that big of a deal. Anyone drafting based on 40-times is going to get what's coming to them regardless of what surface the 40 was run on.

See the Oakland Raiders.


Anyways, it'd be really for the players. The difference in terms of money a 2nd round WR makes is huge compared to what a top 20 receiver makes

josh07039
12-30-2008, 09:37 PM
40 times are relevant, but are definitely overrated. Some of what has been said is true. However, despite the shortcomings of the 40 time, speed is still important.

Iamcanadian
12-31-2008, 12:04 AM
Almost all the guys drafted high in the draft have excellent workouts and run some of the fastest times for the position they play. Every #1 pick is a workout warrior with few exceptions.
GM's, HC's and scouts all consider the 40 time to be one of them most important elements of a prospect. Is it the only consideration, of course not and that is why it isn't the only event at the combine.
If a prospect can play solid football and has elite speed then he can be special but speed alone doesn't guarantee that.
Many speed guys aren't drafted high at all because they aren't considered solid football players but every GM, HC and scouts loves it when a good football player shows elite speed because it means he could become an elite player. There are extremely few elite players who lack solid speed and every GM, HC and scout knows that.
So is the 40 time overrated, no, not if it is used properly as it most often is by the solid GM's in the business of drafting. Weak GM's who have serious problems assessing talent may be fooled by it as they are often fooled by everybody they draft. They cannot look in a players eyes and tell whether he has what it takes so they rely on something they can see, like speed.
On every good team, the GM, HC, Director of Scouting and maybe some scouts all time every player who runs at the combine, do they do it to waste time, absolutely not, they do it because speed is an extremely important element in assessing prospects.

Halsey
12-31-2008, 01:18 AM
Who here thinks the NFL is run by stupid people? If you think the NFL is run by morons you're either an adolescent or you think like one. The NFL runs the combine the way it's run for good reasons. Stop being the arrogant kid who thinks he knows how to do everything better than people who are experts at it.

You think combine performance means nothing? Chris Johnson's stock was helped by his combine peformance. How's he doing in the NFL? Performance at the combine shows more than measurements. It also puts attributes like ability to perform under pressure and work ethic to the test.

yo123
12-31-2008, 01:26 AM
I'm sure Deion Sanders (4.21), Chris Johnson (4.24), Randy Moss (4.25), Champ Bailey (4.28) and Andre Johnson (4.32) would completely agree with you.


Ok. How about Rondel Melendez (4.24), Jerome Mathis (4.28), Troy Williamson (4.32), and Chad Jackson (4.32)?

Naming 4 guys that worked out doesn't mean 40 times are that important. Neither does naming 4 guys that don't pan out.

Solomon
12-31-2008, 01:41 AM
Agreed, 40 times mean too much to scouts than they should

No they don't.

If they did guys like Andre Caldwell (end of the 4th round), Will Franklin (4th round), Gary Guyton (UDFA), Wesley Woodyard (UDFA), Jon Goff (6th round), Red Bryant (4th round), Dre Moore (4th round), Donald Thomas (6th round), Trevor Scott (5th or 6th rd), Justin King (4th round), Tyvon Branch (4th round) and Josh Barrett (7th round) would have been drafted alot higher in 2008.

While guys like Malcolm Kelly, John Carlson, Sedrick Ellis, Lawrence Jackson, Curtis Lofton, Brandon Flowers, and Kenny Phillips would not have gone as high.

40 times mean too much to ordinary fans who follow the draft.

OneToughGame
12-31-2008, 02:03 AM
No they don't.

If they did guys like Andre Caldwell (end of the 4th round), Will Franklin (4th round), Gary Guyton (UDFA), Wesley Woodyard (UDFA), Jon Goff (6th round), Red Bryant (4th round), Dre Moore (4th round), Donald Thomas (6th round), Trevor Scott (5th or 6th rd), Justin King (4th round), Tyvon Branch (4th round) and Josh Barrett (7th round) would have been drafted alot higher in 2008.

While guys like Malcolm Kelly, John Carlson, Sedrick Ellis, Lawrence Jackson, Curtis Lofton, Brandon Flowers, and Kenny Phillips would not have gone as high.

40 times mean too much to ordinary fans who follow the draft.

Carlson was worth the pick used on him :P.. Jackson I'm not so sure about yet... :\

Mockie
12-31-2008, 06:04 AM
1st off, get outta Indy and hold the combines at a real stadium with grass

2nd. NFL players dont run in shorts on sunday

Why the combines dont make players wear full gear during drills and 40 time is a complete fraud

A 5'11 185 lb WR might have a faster 40 time than a 6'2 200 lb WR but the latter might carry the pads better and post a faster 40 time than the 5'11 guy

If the 40 time is what shoots players up and down the boards, why the fake plastic cylicone implants?

I want real game time speed

I want it on grass, not some brown carpet

The 40 times at the combines are not "true 40 times"

If I'm an owner and you are talking about millions of dollars they shell out to guys based purely on their 40 times in short.

Fix it, and let the true numbers surface

So what type of pads do you think players are going to wear when running their 40? Obviously the smallest pads they can find, far smaller than anything they'll actually wear on Sunday. That will actually make the playing field LESS even.

Iamcanadian
12-31-2008, 07:23 AM
Ok. How about Rondel Melendez (4.24), Jerome Mathis (4.28), Troy Williamson (4.32), and Chad Jackson (4.32)?

Naming 4 guys that worked out doesn't mean 40 times are that important. Neither does naming 4 guys that don't pan out.

Only Troy Williamson went in round 1 from your group so your example is rather flawed. Nobody is saying speed is the only aspect that is imporetant about a player but if you can play solid football, then speed can make you an elite player while a lack of speed usually will take you out of that category.

NIPS
12-31-2008, 07:34 AM
So what type of pads do you think players are going to wear when running their 40? Obviously the smallest pads they can find, far smaller than anything they'll actually wear on Sunday. That will actually make the playing field LESS even.

If all the players ran 40's in full pads

You'd see a different ranking list

You'd see the "true" speed of a prospect

Now if this were rugby.......

NIPS
12-31-2008, 07:39 AM
Only Troy Williamson went in round 1 from your group so your example is rather flawed. Nobody is saying speed is the only aspect that is imporetant about a player but if you can play solid football, then speed can make you an elite player while a lack of speed usually will take you out of that category.

I'll take instincts over speed anyday

I'll take the 4.8 MLB that is strong at the POC and can shed blocks over a MLB that can run a 4.6 that is weak at the POC

Speed is more useful to RB's, WR's and secondaries..Thats about all they are good for really

And even that tells you very little about a player

eaglesalltheway
12-31-2008, 09:11 AM
If all the players ran 40's in full pads

You'd see a different ranking list

You'd see the "true" speed of a prospect

Now if this were rugby.......

The point he was trying to make is this...

There are different types of pads, ones that are lighter and restrict motion less than others. Players with the money or agents to get the best pads for doing the 40 will have an advantage over a guy who may be a later round prospect or one with an agent without the resources to buy the top of the line pads that will help with the 40 time.

Personally I think some fans overestimate how much scouts and GMs take into account 40 times.

Bigburt63
12-31-2008, 09:39 AM
If all the players ran 40's in full pads

You'd see a different ranking list

You'd see the "true" speed of a prospect

Now if this were rugby.......

even running in pads would not give you the true game speed that a player has...some players play much faster in a game than they do running the 40, so no matter what they run it in, they wont be as fast as they play

Larry121283
12-31-2008, 10:05 AM
40s are overrated, mostly by the media and fans. Scouts use it as one bit of a large pie with many pieces in evaluating a kid.

Mockie
12-31-2008, 10:25 AM
"ZOMG nfl guys never makez mistakez and other peoplez r never write!!!1oneone1"

:rolleyes:

no one's said everyone in the nfl is an idiot, but countering the argument that they do stupid things with "well they always know better than you because i can name one example" is disingenuous at best. or should i name tony mandarich? would that like, totally prove all nfl people are idiots and all their tests are stupid and a waste of time?

for every random player you can name who had a great performance and is still good, there are probably ten players who had a great performance and sucked. there are arguments to be made for some of the tests that are used, but not only isn't this one of them, this is an example of a really, really bad one.

I enjoy long walks on the beach and asserting my perceived intellectual superiority over people on the internet.

Forenci
12-31-2008, 10:28 AM
I think the initial 10 yard times are more important for most positions. That initial burst can tell you a lot about several positions, like defensive end, running back, wide receiver, etc.

I mean just speaking about some of the Giants players who ran mediocre 40's at the combine like Kevin Boss (4.8ish?) and Ahmad Bradshaw (mid 4.5?) I can say they run much quicker than what a 40 time indicates.

The 40 time is overrated, but certainly not useless as some people seem to think.

Babylon
12-31-2008, 11:55 AM
40s are overrated, mostly by the media and fans. Scouts use it as one bit of a large pie with many pieces in evaluating a kid.

I totally agree, although you would have to think the ones that keep coming back to the top of the draft every year are probably more guilty than others.

Shane P. Hallam
12-31-2008, 11:57 AM
Tell all of this to Chris Johnson.

Paul
12-31-2008, 12:09 PM
1st off, get outta Indy and hold the combines at a real stadium with grass

2nd. NFL players dont run in shorts on sunday

Why the combines dont make players wear full gear during drills and 40 time is a complete fraud

A 5'11 185 lb WR might have a faster 40 time than a 6'2 200 lb WR but the latter might carry the pads better and post a faster 40 time than the 5'11 guy

If the 40 time is what shoots players up and down the boards, why the fake plastic cylicone implants?

I want real game time speed

I want it on grass, not some brown carpet

The 40 times at the combines are not "true 40 times"

If I'm an owner and you are talking about millions of dollars they shell out to guys based purely on their 40 times in short.

Fix it, and let the true numbers surface

Pretty sure most GM's and scouts know all of this, the smart ones do at least. This may sound naive, but I would like to think most GM's aren't "shelling out millions" purely based on 40 times. The prospect should have a good body of work in college, along with their own pro days and a number of other drills at the combine that come into play during the evaluation process. So I highly doubt teams are dumb enough to base there judgment on a player just on the 40 time alone.

BeerBaron
12-31-2008, 12:09 PM
I really only care when people run extremely slow 40s. Maybe they play fast than they time but what I think it tells me, is that they didn't prepare for it the best and maybe showed up out of shape or out of technique.

But, for the record, trying telling Dwayne Jarrett that 40s don't matter, lol. I think he's still finishing his.

CashmoneyDrew
12-31-2008, 12:25 PM
Reinfeldt seems to love them. How else can he explain to me Chris Henry? What a waste of a 2nd rounder.

LonghornsLegend
12-31-2008, 01:06 PM
1st off, get outta Indy and hold the combines at a real stadium with grass

2nd. NFL players dont run in shorts on sunday

Why the combines dont make players wear full gear during drills and 40 time is a complete fraud

A 5'11 185 lb WR might have a faster 40 time than a 6'2 200 lb WR but the latter might carry the pads better and post a faster 40 time than the 5'11 guy

If the 40 time is what shoots players up and down the boards, why the fake plastic cylicone implants?

I want real game time speed

I want it on grass, not some brown carpet

The 40 times at the combines are not "true 40 times"

If I'm an owner and you are talking about millions of dollars they shell out to guys based purely on their 40 times in short.

Fix it, and let the true numbers surface



You act like the scouts don't realize and understand players don't run that fast with equipment on, they know how to translate that.


They also look at game speed and try to find a common ground between the two, your just getting a players raw speed and it's one piece of the puzzle in trying to grade a prospect...They view the 40 as important as the vertical, they aren't looking at one individually and forming an opinion from it.


They have to do more events then just the 40 when they go to Indy, shuttles, 60 yard dash, while some people make a big deal if you run a good 40 time scouts are still factoring in how you timed in all those events before they want to draft you.

Hograiser
12-31-2008, 01:32 PM
first of all chris johnson was an incredible college player. he led the nation in total all-purpose yardage and had over 400 yards in the hawaii bowl his senior year.
40 time is not just used to measure top end speed but also work ethic and desire. chris johnson cant walk outside and just run a 4.24, it would be much more like 4.4. so the combine isn't designed to get just timed numbers but also it measures the size of the players heart.

Scott Wright
12-31-2008, 11:52 PM
I'll take my 4.4 wideout against your 4.6 corner every day of the week.

Can forty times be overblow? Sure.

With that said they are an important piece of the puzzle and it would be wrong to dimiss them.

NIPS
01-01-2009, 08:07 AM
I'll take my 4.4 wideout against your 4.6 corner every day of the week.

Can forty times be overblow? Sure.

With that said they are an important piece of the puzzle and it would be wrong to dimiss them.

I never meant to dismiss them. I think you and I both know, those same numbers in your example will be entirely different when they run on sundays in pads

May favor the 4.4 WR, may not

No one knows for sure...

Some guys carry weight better than others

villagewarrior
01-02-2009, 12:22 PM
I think the 40 is an important test for WRs, DBs and RBs to a lesser extent. Every other position I'm more interested in 3 cone, I Test, and three lifts: bench, squat, and power clean.

PACKmanN
01-02-2009, 03:43 PM
1st off, get outta Indy and hold the combines at a real stadium with grass

2nd. NFL players dont run in shorts on sunday

Why the combines dont make players wear full gear during drills and 40 time is a complete fraud

A 5'11 185 lb WR might have a faster 40 time than a 6'2 200 lb WR but the latter might carry the pads better and post a faster 40 time than the 5'11 guy

If the 40 time is what shoots players up and down the boards, why the fake plastic cylicone implants?

I want real game time speed

I want it on grass, not some brown carpet

The 40 times at the combines are not "true 40 times"

If I'm an owner and you are talking about millions of dollars they shell out to guys based purely on their 40 times in short.

Fix it, and let the true numbers surface
Isn't that why the teams have private practices with players to judge them some more?

giantsfan
01-02-2009, 03:43 PM
I think the 10 yard split, shuffle, cone drill and vertical are more important, those will give you a better feel for a players quickness and acceleration much more important than straight line speed for almost every player, other than Wideouts running fly routes.