PDA

View Full Version : Why do people hate on Michael Johnson [Georgia Tech]


JohnCandy
01-07-2009, 08:07 PM
Everywhere I turn people are talking down Michael Johnson and I cannot figure out why. Was he a little overhyped coming into the season yeah but he had a great senior year.

-Great physical package 6'7" 260lbs. 4.6 [40]

-Solid production

-No glaring off field issues

What is the issue I know that he is thin but that will not be the case in an NFL weight program.

Shane P. Hallam
01-07-2009, 08:13 PM
He just has disappeared at times, especially in big moments. I think there is also some motor questions.

Scott Wright
01-07-2009, 08:14 PM
Watch him play and you'll see.

Or in Johnson's case WON'T see.

JohnCandy
01-07-2009, 08:14 PM
He just has disappeared at times, especially in big moments. I think there is also some motor questions.

All DEs disappear from time to time they said the same thing about Mario Williams and Julius Peppers when they came out. It is hard to get a sack it is not all about beating the OLmen.

JohnCandy
01-07-2009, 08:16 PM
Watch him play and you'll see.

Or in Johnson's case WON'T see.

40 tackles 15 TFL 15 Passes Defensed 7.5 sacks [9.5 counting the bowl game] and an INT for a TD.

What do you mean he doesn't show up I would take those stats from a DE any day of the week.

Scott Wright
01-07-2009, 08:24 PM
Stats never tell the whole story.

Danny Wuerffel put up big numbers in college too but that didn't make him a good pro prospect.

Johnson gets easily washed out against the run and is a non-factor most of the time.

To me he is strictly a 3rd down pass rushing specialist in a 4-3 at this point.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-07-2009, 08:40 PM
Scott is right. Try and track down any GT game from this season and and watch the entire thing. You'll immediately see what we're talking about.

Anywhere between 3 or 4 plays a game Johnson is exactly what you hope to see. For the rest of it he may as well not even be on the field. If someone can light a fire under his ass, then I have no doubt he can be a very good player. But I have never seen a college defender play with as little overall effort as Johnson.

wonderbredd24
01-07-2009, 08:43 PM
Compared to many of the pass rushers coming out, those stats still aren't that impressive

Geo
01-07-2009, 08:49 PM
PMD has been saying this for some time, took me a while to get it and cool off considerably on Johnson.

Although I love his potential and would personally be happy with the pick, I didn't even put Michael Johnson on my Colts' big board. Because if I'm spending a 1st round pick on a guy, he needs to deliver on the football field. I don't question his motor and so on.

This isn't even a Mathias Kiwanuka situation, where he had a down senior year, Johnson just hasn't done enough up to this point.

ATLDirtyBirds
01-07-2009, 08:55 PM
I'm a big supporter of Michael Johnson and I think if he falls into a good coaching situation, he'll be a huge hit. I'm hoping the Falcons take him with their mid 20's pick.

LonghornsLegend
01-07-2009, 08:55 PM
Haven't we had this thread like 4 times already? It's pretty easy, for a guy with his measurables and athleticism he should be producing alot more, or causing alot more havoc, and that's just not the case.


Right now he's strictly a potential pick, but he hasn't played on the field on the level of Brown or Orakpo at all...Not that he can't or won't become a good pro, but he did disappear quite a few times during games.

Halsey
01-07-2009, 08:57 PM
People 'hate' on him because he was being projected as a top 5 pick at one time and didn't play up to it this past season. If he had never been projected that high he wouldn't have been under such a microscope.

AtariBigby
01-07-2009, 09:00 PM
Haven't we had this thread like 4 times already?
Who's counting?
Are you?

thebow305
01-07-2009, 10:05 PM
To the original poster, if you use the search feature on the forum, I started a thread about a couple months back prompty entitled "Why so much Michael Johnson hate?"

You should be able to find all you need there.

And for the record, if the Phins took him at #26, I would not be the least bit upset. :)
His potential is just AWESOME!

foozball
01-07-2009, 11:22 PM
he doesnt play with passion. doesnt play sideline to sideline like he should with his speed. never chases in pursuit. just doesnt play with a high motor. he's not really stout against the run either and doesnt have many moves.

if the ball isnt coming his way, he doesnt play.

Unbiased
01-07-2009, 11:27 PM
To the original poster, if you use the search feature on the forum, I started a thread about a couple months back prompty entitled "Why so much Michael Johnson hate?"

You should be able to find all you need there.

And for the record, if the Phins took him at #26, I would not be the least bit upset. :)
His potential is just AWESOME!

You want Gholston version 2?

Wait, you wanted Gholston at #1 last year. You should have learned your lesson.

619
01-07-2009, 11:29 PM
And for the record, if the Phins took him at #26, I would not be the least bit upset. :)
His potential is just AWESOME!

You should go work for Al Davis. :)

WMD
01-07-2009, 11:30 PM
I bet he ends up on the Giants.

Staubach12
01-07-2009, 11:35 PM
Ugh... I hate not having a first round pick.

thebow305
01-08-2009, 12:37 AM
You should go work for Al Davis. :)

He would love me. ;)

thebow305
01-08-2009, 12:38 AM
You want Gholston version 2?

Wait, you wanted Gholston at #1 last year. You should have learned your lesson.

Hmmm... That was cute.

Sure, let's just pick on thebow and his undying love of physical freaks and hybrids... REAL MATURE!! :D

Menardo75
01-08-2009, 02:43 AM
Bottom line he is too inconsistant to be the impact player that he can be, that's why you have Michael Johnson hate.

bitonti
01-08-2009, 08:38 AM
purely on measurables, MJ could be alot better in pros than college

no one believes he's a top 5 type any more but he's still a rare athlete at a premium position

bored of education
01-08-2009, 09:25 AM
The reason why their is hate for Johnson is that he has the talent to be the number one overall pick but plays like a 3rd rounder.

bitonti
01-08-2009, 09:52 AM
I used to come down alot harder on players like Michael Johnson, that was before Mario Williams went from being the 3rd best DL on NC State to one of the best DE in the NFL.

NFL coaches believe they can take a raw athlete and teach him... and that has happened - but they can't take a marginal athlete and make him faster or taller.

aNYtitan
01-08-2009, 09:55 AM
Another Michael Johnson thread? Well, I wouldn't mind seeing him on the Titans giving us another missile to rush off the edge.

Paranoidmoonduck
01-08-2009, 02:34 PM
I used to come down alot harder on players like Michael Johnson, that was before Mario Williams went from being the 3rd best DL on NC State to one of the best DE in the NFL.

NFL coaches believe they can take a raw athlete and teach him... and that has happened - but they can't take a marginal athlete and make him faster or taller.

Let's be clear, Mario Williams was never the third best lineman on NC State. He was obviously better and was more productive than either McCargo, Lawson, or Tyler. Also, Williams was way more productive in college than Johnson, and displayed none of the symptoms we see from Johnson. It's one thing to have raw technique, it's another entirely to jog through 90% of one's plays.

bitonti
01-08-2009, 03:11 PM
Let's be clear, Mario Williams was never the third best lineman on NC State. He was obviously better and was more productive than either McCargo, Lawson, or Tyler. Also, Williams was way more productive in college than Johnson, and displayed none of the symptoms we see from Johnson. It's one thing to have raw technique, it's another entirely to jog through 90% of one's plays.

uh... yeah. Lawson went against better LT as a RDE but whatever.

since we are being clear so what do you think of Michael Johnson?

Paranoidmoonduck
01-08-2009, 03:22 PM
And Mario Williams was the guy getting chip blocked by tight ends over half the time and had all the backfield blocking set to his side.

I think I wouldn't draft Michael Johnson at all. Not that I don't think he can be a good player, but there are so many ultra-talented defensive ends in this draft, I see no reason to take the least motivated one. Johnson's problems are so much far past the past defensive ends that have received the "lazy" or "inconsistent" tag like Mario Williams or Gaines Adams.

I think he represents a decent value after the 25th pick or so, but only if a team talks to him and comes out of that interview feeling positive about his dedication and see's some buttons they can push to get him playing at the right level. If not, I'd just as soon watch him underachieve elsewhere.

bitonti
01-08-2009, 03:30 PM
And Mario Williams was the guy getting chip blocked by tight ends over half the time and had all the backfield blocking set to his side.

it's a chicken/egg thing, maybe the reason why chipped is because most RT's are terrible at pass pro... and coaches at least hoped their best pass protector could take away Lawson 1-on-1. End of the day both players had over 20 career sacks.


I think I wouldn't draft Michael Johnson at all. Not that I don't think he can be a good player, but there are so many ultra-talented defensive ends in this draft, I see no reason to take the least motivated one. Johnson's problems are so much far past the past defensive ends that have received the "lazy" or "inconsistent" tag like Mario Williams or Gaines Adams.

I think he represents a decent value after the 25th pick or so, but only if a team talks to him and comes out of that interview feeling positive about his dedication and see's some buttons they can push to get him playing at the right level. If not, I'd just as soon watch him underachieve elsewhere.

I can see all that here's a followup is Michael Johnson less motivated than Greg Hardy?

foozball
01-08-2009, 03:53 PM
it's a chicken/egg thing, maybe the reason why chipped is because most RT's are terrible at pass pro... and coaches at least hoped their best pass protector could take away Lawson 1-on-1. End of the day both players had over 20 career sacks.



I can see all that here's a followup is Michael Johnson less motivated than Greg Hardy?

yes, he is less motivated. did you see the bowl game? here's what would happen on about 75% of the plays...

he rushes, gets stood up, then stands around. never chases in pursuit, never runs down the field, jogs pretty much everywhere...he just doesnt hustle.

CJ4life
01-08-2009, 06:50 PM
Stats never tell the whole story.

Danny Wuerffel put up big numbers in college too but that didn't make him a good pro prospect.

Johnson gets easily washed out against the run and is a non-factor most of the time.

To me he is strictly a 3rd down pass rushing specialist in a 4-3 at this point.
Danny Wuerffel put up big numbers in college too but that didn't make him a good pro prospect.
Now I realize you're the owner of this site and this is my first post ever and no disrespect but I'm not sure you've ever really watched Michael Johnson extensively. First off, Wuerffel wasn't exactly the athlete that Michael Johnson is. 6'7 260 lb DE and runs a 4.6 is not exactly "only production". That's out of this world as far as measurables are concerned and he has backed them up with great production.
Johnson gets easily washed out against the run and is a non-factor most of the time.
I think this only backs up my statements. This would have applied BEFORE the season but you can't really knock him on his run stopping ability. He doesn't get caught out of position nearly as much as he used to, he uses his long arms and great upper-body strength to stop runners either in the backfield or for a short gain. He does it pretty consistently but I will agree that he needs to work a bit on his lower body strength. Still, he's ALOT better than you give him credit for.
To me he is strictly a 3rd down pass rushing specialist in a 4-3 at this point.
As I said earlier, he's a lot better against the run than you give him credit for. He could and will play all 3 downs in the NFL.
2009 Defensive End Rankings

1. Michael Johnson
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n287/dragonslx1/MichaelJohnsonisRIPPED-1.jpg
PROS:
Absolute physical freak. Is 6'7, 260 pounds and has a chance at clocking in at around 4.59 in the 40-yard dash. Has the frame to bulk up a lot more without losing a step, and has a large wingspan that allows him to bat balls away at the line of scrimmage. Much stronger than people give him credit for, and has repeatedly overpowered the blocker he is playing against. Has been making huge leaps in stopping the run, and has really made an impact there. Explodes past the slower tackles he plays against, repeatedly getting around the tackle because of his speed. Destroyed Eugene Monroe when they played, forcing him to hold on multiple occasions as well as having a sack and a forced fumble. Maybe the best Defensive end at disengaging from his blockers and this allows him to make plays in both running and passing plays. Very underrated against the run and has made leaps in that department. Rarely gets caught out of position and is a solid tackler in the open field. Is not only a situational pass rusher, can do it all and do it all well.

CONS:
Has been a bit inconsistent this year, having a two sack game and then disappearing and then showing up again, although it is the nature of the position. Needs to add a bit of bulk to his frame to allow him to push around tackles a bit more, but still better there than people give him credit for. Needs to add strength to his upper body;Only has one year of starting experience, so he is still a bit raw. Inconsistency is the Achilles heel of an otherwise excellent prospect, as he absolutely dominate on some plays and vanish in others.
VIDEOS:
Vs. Mississippi State
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMYi-I60fec
Vs. Eugene Monroe and Virginia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tbnh9F9A
Vs. Boston College
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxsgCbIUoSM&feature=related
Vs. Virginia Tech
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9tRkjU4Oig&feature=related
Vs. North Carolina
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHJFf8rMi28


The problem with you using those arguments is the fact that Michael Johnson the real deal physically and people say he needs to add a bit of weight but you make it sound like it's impossible for Johnson while it's an easy feat for Maybin. Why? If he has the same problems as the other two but is better athletically, shouldn't he be rated a bit higher for you? :?

Johnson isn't the real deal physically... he needs to put on weight, just like Maybin and Selvie do. However, the latter have both proven to be excellent pass rushers in college moreso than Johnson has. They are better players than Johnson right now, I feel, although all three have to do some bulking up.
:arrow: George Selvie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOGKVNeTSSc (#1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH4m2lRZqkY (#2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uga2J5gqPM8 (#3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqNOv_HSp80 (#4)
:arrow: Brian Orakpo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN2rNQac-Pw (#1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0fudWpk2mU&feature=related (#2)
:arrow: Michael Johnson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxsgCbIUoSM (#1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMYi-I60fec&feature=related (#2)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q_tbnh9F9A&feature=related (#3)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHJFf8rMi28 (#4)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9tRkjU4Oig&feature=related (#5)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQrZCza5Hp0 (#6)

ANALYSIS:
I'm going to compare Michael Johnson to every elite pass-rusher and try to prove to you and everyone that Michael Johnson deserves more credit than he is given.

MICHAEL JOHNSON VS. BRIAN ORAKPO:
Let's start off with the physical abilities. Michael Johnson is 6'7 and every bit of 265 with the frame to add 10-20 lbs easily. Orakpo is 6'4 and a solid 260 lbs with the frame to add at most 15 lbs. Johnson runs a 4.6, Orakpo runs a high 4.6, low 4.7. I think its pretty clear that Johnson wins this category although not by that much. Using the various videos by NFLDRAFTPARTY It's pretty evident that Johnson has a lot more moves than Orakpo. Notice that in videos 1 and 2 the only thing that Orakpo does is overpower or speed by the defender. No spin move, no swim move and hardly any bull-rush. Watch both of Orakpo's highlights, all he does is once again either overpower or blow past the tackle. Johnson uses the spin move at 1:31 in video 2 and 1:03 in video 6 to a devastating effect. He uses the spin move frequently although not enough IMO because when he does it works nearly every time. His swim move is outstanding and is evident throughout video #2. Just look at :40, :48 and :54 as he uses the swim move to near perfection. As far as burst off the line I feel they are about even because they can both just blow past a tackle. If there's one thing that Orakpo does better than Johnson is taking an angle towards the QB. Johnson sometimes goes a bit too fast and doesn't have enough time to change directions, something Orakpo has a good grasp off IMO.

MICHAEL JOHNSON VS. GEORGE SELVIE:
This is probably 100 times closer than Orakpo-to-Johnson in terms of moves. Both have a plethora of moves at their disposal and use them all really well. I can't knock Selvie on moves, but he is smaller and less athletic than Johnson. 6'5 and 245 pounds is already 15 less than Johnson and Johnson is considered lean by most. Their burst off the line is comparable too, but Johnson has Selvie beat in terms of stopping the run. Selvie seems to be locked in as only a pass rusher and doesn't even seem to try to go after the RB. Maybe it's the scheme and if it is this shouldn't be a big concern but otherwise he needs to learn to stay at home and at least take up blockers that he usually leaves his LBs to take on. Again, I'll take Johnson over him but this one was pretty close, at least a lot closer than Orakpo vs. Johnson IMO.

*NOTE: I love all of these players, I just feel that Johnson always gets labeled as the "worst" despite being maybe the best of the three. He has all of what you ask in terms of a DE and has produced well. 9 Sacks, 4 FF, 46 Tackles and 7 passes defended. I advise that you watch all the highlight videos of all of them as you will be able to better compare all of them. You better have a good connection though, otherwise you could be in front of your screen for a while. :wink:

Babylon
01-08-2009, 06:59 PM
Probably the Darko Milicic of this draft. Looks great getting off the bus and teases with a decent game every once in awhile but for the most part not worth the bother.

CC.SD
01-08-2009, 07:10 PM
Hmmm... That was cute.

Sure, let's just pick on thebow and his undying love of physical freaks and hybrids... REAL MATURE!! :D

It's ok bow, I will always understand your love of freaks.

giantsfan
01-08-2009, 07:39 PM
He just has disappeared at times, especially in big moments. I think there is also some motor questions.

at times, I'd say he appears at times. I love the kids package but he only tries on every 12th snap.

And yes he's less motivated than Hardy, Hardy got in trouble with his HC because of how badly he wanted to play, he didn't want to rest his injured toe and his coach told him he had to so he got in the doghouse, how is that unmotivated?