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SchizophrenicBatman
01-10-2009, 11:25 PM
After a performance like that someone is going to take the fall. But we all know the Panther front office - they won't make drastic changes. It's arguable whether they're necessary, this was a 12-4 team, though it had obvious flaws...but we all know the house won't be cleaned, so no point in asking for it.

With that said, who gets blamed this offseason? One or two people will be gone next year. A list of candidates:

- Delhomme. Obviously the list has to start with him. Unfortunately, we are not in a good position to replace him. Our first pick is in the 60s, and the few guys picked in that area who pan out take multiple years before blooming. So, free agency or trade? Cassel won't fit in our offense or in our salary cap. Culpepper? Favre? McCown/Moore? I don't see anyone out there who has more than a 50/50 chance of being better than INThomme next year

- Davidson. Doubtful, since this is the best the offense has been in the Fox era. However, I have never been a huge fan of his playcalls. Why does DeAngelo never get the ball in his hands on a short route or a screen? Why isn't Steve Smith getting more creative calls to get the ball in his hands period? Why is Jeff King lining up at WR then shifting in to the line making it painfully obvious that we're running?

- Trgovac. He shouldve gotten more out of the talent he had before...though this year, I'm not sure how much talent we really had. Still, it might be worth it to mix up the defense from the bend but don't break mindset he has given it to an attacking scheme

- Tim Lewis. Seems he has turned Gamble's career around but everyone else in the secondary has gone downhill. Richard Marshall and Charles Godfrey blow at least five coverages a game each, which might be more their fault than any coach's...but you gotta do SOMETHING about that as the man in charge.

- Mike McCoy. Maybe if we had a real QB coach instead of a glorified equipment manager Delhomme wouldn't still be throwing into double coverage and off his back foot every play?

- Crossman. Ok, Lloyd and Mark Jones have made the ST respectable. But, what does it say about the ST coach when it takes you five tries to find a KR and you have to sign a guy solely to do kickoffs?

- Fox. Well, he was on the hot seat entering the year.

- The Players. I could list off about 10 guys who could be improved on, though given our cap situation and lack of a first round pick it's unrealistic to upgrade more than 2 or 3 of them

Say that three big names get ax'd this offseason. Who's your picks?

Mine:

Crossman - This game wasn't his fault but it's the perfect time to bring in a real coach
Ken Lucas - Again, this game wasn't his fault but he's almost as done as Mike Wahle was last year
Trgovac - Even though I haven't been as hard on him in the past as most fans, it's time for a change. The defense completely fell apart as the season went on and the talent level is only descending. Nowhere to go but down with him at the helm

GB12
01-10-2009, 11:27 PM
Trgovac - Even though I haven't been as hard on him in the past as most fans, it's time for a change. The defense completely fell apart as the season went on and the talent level is only descending. Nowhere to go but down with him at the helm
Yes please. I'd take him in Green Bay in a second.

iBoldin
01-10-2009, 11:32 PM
Yeah, I think Trgovac would be a hot commodity if Carolina decided to fire him.

Although, I didn't like what he did tonight, and Julius Peppers was non existent(much like John Abraham last week).

Shiver
01-11-2009, 12:00 AM
Julius Peppers was non existent(much like John Abraham last week).

I think a lot of credit needs to be given to Arizona for their ability to neutralize them. Kurt Warner, with protection, is near unstoppable.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-11-2009, 12:00 AM
Trgovac has done a terrible job of isolating Peppers his entire tenure here. Before this season he'd waste him by dropping him into coverage 20% of the time, this year there just hasn't been enough talent on the DLine to get him help. That's been my only big complaint with him so far

And yea, he'd probably pick up another job fast. It's a GIGS fire for sure. Could it blow up in our face? Possibly, but I think there's a better chance a new guy with a different style would thrive here. Our D has become extremely emotionally driven over the past couple seasons and a bend-dont break philosophy can suck the energy out of a team like that. They need to be attacking, making big plays and putting pressure on the opposing offense if they are to thrive. Either Trgovac has to go or we need to get more even-keeled players in the lineup

dj825
01-11-2009, 12:20 AM
1. Trgovac needs to go due to lack of effective blitzing and play calling in general
2. Delhomme is still number 1 on my list for who needs to go, i used to think they just need to make him backup but after tonight i realize i dont want Carolinas future QB learning from him
3. John Fox has apparently gotten Carolina as far as he can take them so i think they need to give someone else a shot to bring this team to the next level
or if not Fox then McDaniel, theirs no reason Delhomme should have been throwing as often as he was as early as he was in games specially when we were leading and Williams and Stewart had already been running all over the opposing defense

...
01-11-2009, 12:22 AM
- Delhomme does deserve a lot of blame. Way too inconsistent. He's sucked for a few years now. Defenses figured him out. Time to move on. I don't see him as being anything more than a veteran backup at this point.

- Trgovac irks me too. I don't like the way he never blitzes, and if he DOES blitz, it's always painfully obvious, so it makes it easy for the opposing offenses to avoid. And I REALLY hate the fact that he insists on playing the corners 10+ yards away from the receivers.. quarterbacks just slowly pick us apart with ease. It's just stupid. People say we 'HAVE' to play the corners off because we generate no pass rush, but the lack of pass rush seems to be Trgo's fault too. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've seen teams with worse D-lines than Carolina's, and they don't seem to have to play their corners off in outer space somewhere.

Here's an option not quite on the list: BAD DRAFTING. I'd go more in depth but I'm sleepy.

dj825
01-11-2009, 12:58 AM
-

Here's an option not quite on the list: BAD DRAFTING. I'd go more in depth but I'm sleepy.


i agree completely bringing in a head coach who can draft better would be nice..dont get me wrong Fox is good at picking players he just isnt as good as developing that player to their full potential...now he has made some good pick ups in free agency like Chris Harris and noone expected Damione Lewis and Tyler Brayton to be even half as good as they were this year and Williams and Stewart seem to be progressing faster then expected, but im not referring to first round picks im referring to the players like Dwayne Jarrett who was seemingly drafted to be a future #2 option but now looks more like a wasted 2nd round draft pick since he never plays or Dante Rosario who after being the Hero week one against San Diego was rarely seen despite outplaying Jeff King every time he was out there...i like Fox hes a good coach and hes done alot to make Carolina a better team but theirs just too many non first and second round picks being seemingly wasted at times because Fox seems to prefer bargain bin Free Agency over developing a 3rd through 7th round pick to be the next Marquise Colston or Tom Brady

SchizophrenicBatman
01-11-2009, 01:52 AM
well if you have a problem with the drafting the person to fire is Hurney and I would be in full support of that. He does nothing but make obvious moves and the moves Fox tells him to make. He also never signs players to undermarket contracts...it's always an overpay or what looks like an underpay and turns out to be wasted money on a bust (see: Landon Johnson/DJ Hackett this year)

The drafting has been excellent in the first round though. We havent had a true bust in the first round of the Fox era IIRC. The later rounds are less than stellar, however

ShutDwn
01-11-2009, 10:06 AM
My number one is Jake Delhomme, I don't see how you can say anyone else.

1. Throwing 5 interceptions by itself should be enough to put you in jeopardy.
2. Those interceptions and fumbles really shortened the length of time the defense had to rest AND see what the hell the Cardinals were doing. They were completely lost and they looked tired. We lost the time of possession battle severely for the overall game, I would think the difference was even bigger at half time. Why the hell did it take us until the 3rd quarter to start pressing receivers?

3. He hasn't been good this year. Anyone who thinks a 15 TD 12 INT season is #2 seed caliber, I have no words for them. Add in the playoffs and he has a TD/Turnover differential he was -5.

4. Our schedule next year will be ferocious to say the least. We play the NFC and AFC east, our own division, and the winners of every other division. So, we play the three best current divisions, and then the best from the ones we don't play. Jake Delhomme won't get it done, and I think that we will have to a lot better on offense than we were.


Unfortunately, I doubt Trgo gets fired. He is the coordinator that controls the side that the head coach's specialty is on, he is running Fox's defense. Which apparently be described as "soft zone and obvious blitzes". They did nothing this year to even attempt to change their schemes from the first meeting, or the rest of the year. It didn't work then, why the hell would it work now?

Fox is so afraid of giving up the big play, however he is willing to allow the other team to take a 14 play drive 80 yards for a TD. He counts on the offense making one critical mistake, but even if they do (such as NYG's holdings, or the Cardinals delay of games) they overcome them in one play.

Most defenses have to gamble to make big plays, he isn't willing to and thus we get picked apart. There are such things as safe gambles, but those require being good at executing one single blitz. How many game changing defensive plays did we have that we actually forced?

In my opinion, the defense had been in a collapse since the midway point, DeAngelo and Smith willed us to victories despite them such as the Greenbay game, and the Oakland game. Jake didn't have a single game against an at least decent team that made me say "he's playing really well today".


The Question for everyone is:
Would you still have the QB who's stats were 16 TDs 17 INTs start again with an arsenal like we have? He should have one of the most efficient games in the league like David Garrard last year.

Matt Moore needs to see this as an opportunity and really take the job.

Don't give up on Jarrett just yet, he is starting over Hackett and looked good out there he has made some huge clutch catches. His biggest problem is that Delhomme plays favorites, big time. He is always going to find Moose and Smith before them, and throw it regardless too. Matt Moore proved to me that Dante Rosario can play if he gets the looks, Jake just doesn't look, I believe the same for Dwayne.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-11-2009, 03:16 PM
I wonder if it would be better for us in the long run if we just tanked next season for a top 10 pick. Start Moore from day 1. If he swims against that beast of a schedule, we've found our QB. If he sinks, then we're in a position to take a legitimate QB that can win a Super Bowl. Looking at these playoffs, it's become obvious to me that if you're in the top 10 you HAVE to take a QB, unless it's a David Carr/Joey Harrington year. Look at who's heading these teams - it's all first round picks or UDFAs.

Of course, no NFL coach or team is going to be complicit with this strategy. But I really wonder if it wouldn't do us better for the future to just punt next season

ShutDwn
01-11-2009, 05:07 PM
I wonder if it would be better for us in the long run if we just tanked next season for a top 10 pick. Start Moore from day 1. If he swims against that beast of a schedule, we've found our QB. If he sinks, then we're in a position to take a legitimate QB that can win a Super Bowl. Looking at these playoffs, it's become obvious to me that if you're in the top 10 you HAVE to take a QB, unless it's a David Carr/Joey Harrington year. Look at who's heading these teams - it's all first round picks or UDFAs.

Of course, no NFL coach or team is going to be complicit with this strategy. But I really wonder if it wouldn't do us better for the future to just punt next season

We have a terrible schedule, playing the top three divisions, and then the top teams from the ones we aren't playing.

We can't waste time with Delhomme, he gave us no reason to believe he can return to regular season form or anything because his regular season form wasn't good. We need to know now if Moore can play.

We need to get Delhomme to restructure either way, no way am I going to pay someone 6 million to be sub par and blow.

dj825
01-11-2009, 06:40 PM
yeah either Moore next season or draft someone in the second or third round to possibly play, but next season in the draft well have players like Colt McCoy and Tim Tebow in the draft who will probably go early on in the first and if Matt Moore tanks theirs a chance on McCoy who is very accurate and a great game manager or Tebow who could be a bit of a project but could also be one of the best NFL QBs in a few years but if you draft someone in the second or third round we need to try and and give him a few years to develop but really the only one worthy of that selection is Rhett Bomar who was one of the top recruits going into college but due to disciplinary actions was kicked off of the OU football team the rest of the QBs in the draft arent exactly NFL material it seems although Chase Daniel could be a steal in a few years if put in the right situation

d-dave
01-12-2009, 07:11 AM
The obvious scapegoat is jake delhomme, but lets also not forget our defense which allowed the cards to complete big pass after big pass to Fitzgerald. Who didn't get the pressure on Kurt Warner? Who allowed Jame to convert 3 and shorts (though kept him pretty well contained in the first half)? How about Lloyd for giving Arizona great field position by booting the ball out of bounds on the first play? What about the O line for getting neutralized at the point of attack by the smaller Cards d line and LBs? I think there is more than enough blame to go around for all the coaches and players.

So the first big scapegoat I'm going to name will be Jeremy Bridges. He got beat and allowed Antonio Smith to come in and smack the ball out of Jake's hands and recover. Then I'm going to put it on the coaches who called a piss poor game plan. How do you fail to run against the Cards? How do you give Fitzgerald all those open lanes because you aren't bumping him? How come there was no pressure on Warner? Failure to prepare. Then I'll pass the blame cup to Jake for zeroing in on Smith the whole night, which is where most of his INTs came from. Giving the Cards short field position right after you get the ball back is in excusable.

While everyone may want to blame Jake, he was far from the only person who contributed to the loss of this game.

ShutDwn
01-12-2009, 12:04 PM
6 turnovers is one of the worst performances I have seen. Though I give credit to the Cardinals, what he did was just idiotic. They didn't pull any exotic tricks out of the bag, Delhomme just went stupid on us.

All those turnovers = no time for defense to catch their breath or even look at pictures of whats happening.

Sorry, 23 of 33 points came off turnovers. Our only chance was a shootout and Delhomme swiftly took those hopes away.

Crickett
01-12-2009, 12:11 PM
- Delhomme. Obviously the list has to start with him. Unfortunately, we are not in a good position to replace him. Our first pick is in the 60s, and the few guys picked in that area who pan out take multiple years before blooming. So, free agency or trade? Cassel won't fit in our offense or in our salary cap. Culpepper? Favre? McCown/Moore? I don't see anyone out there who has more than a 50/50 chance of being better than INThomme next year

The Panthers might have a shot at Josh Freeman in the draft. It takes time for rookie QB's to develop, but if you dont take one now, what happens next offseason?

ShutDwn
01-12-2009, 12:32 PM
The Panthers might have a shot at Josh Freeman in the draft. It takes time for rookie QB's to develop, but if you dont take one now, what happens next offseason?

I wouldn't be against it if we could get more picks. We have other issues as well that we need to address like DT, CB and G. We could still fill all those needs if we got at least another second rounder. I'd like a new QB coach though.

I wish someone would bite if we franchised Peppers. I am not keen on tying that much money in one player who disappears.

Jake should restructure as well, I won't want to pay him that much to do so little.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-13-2009, 01:39 AM
I'm not a fan of Freeman. He's a big body with a big arm that lacks nearly everything else. His stats are especially underwhelming when you consider he put them up on Big 12 defenses and I've never come across impressed (other than physically) when watching him. Also, he's only 20, meaning the development cycle with him may take even longer than normal for raw QBs. I'm not saying he couldn't work out somewhere, I just don't think it'll be here. When I watched Jordyzzz tape last season Freeman didn't stand out to me, and that really shouldn't happen when the guy is supposed to lead our team in a year or two

Basically take everything about Matt Stafford, good and bad, magnify it by 100, and that's Josh Freeman. When you already have a ton of people thinking Stafford is an all arm, no brain QB...that can't be good for Freeman

FirstAndGoal
01-16-2009, 03:24 PM
I don't understand why Trgo would be a hot commodity. When he got the job, he inherited the 2nd ranked defense and has now made them average. With as much talent as we have, we should not have been ranked as low as we were.

Rjspartan
01-16-2009, 05:04 PM
i would only want Fox fired if we can get cowher

...
01-17-2009, 02:19 PM
Why? There are other coaches on earth besides Cowher.

Rjspartan
01-20-2009, 05:42 PM
Why? There are other coaches on earth besides Cowher.
if cowher goes to any team it is carolina, his family lives there
and who else would we get Gruden. ha don't make me laugh TOO hard!

garrard9
01-21-2009, 03:43 PM
The Jags might get your DC and I see these posts and they are very different takes on him. What are the facts and can this guy make JAX a top ten even top fifteen defense again?

ShutDwn
01-21-2009, 11:49 PM
Who knows, we really don't know how much is our DC Trgovac and how much is Fox.

If he leaves we will know for sure.

PACKmanN
01-22-2009, 12:04 AM
if cowher goes to any team it is carolina, his family lives there
and who else would we get Gruden. ha don't make me laugh TOO hard!

how about guys who have been in football and that aren't extremely overrated like Cowher. Do your research and get someone(Jeff Jagodzinski)

SchizophrenicBatman
01-22-2009, 12:35 PM
Why would we want an egomaniac who capitalized on Tom O'Brien's recruits for 2 years then bolted when the cupboard was suddenly bare?

PACKmanN
01-22-2009, 02:07 PM
Why would we want an egomaniac who capitalized on Tom O'Brien's recruits for 2 years then bolted when the cupboard was suddenly bare?

what are you talking about? he wanted to be a HC so he interviewed for the job and got fired for interviewing...how is that his fault...he is a good offensive minded guy but hey you want to throw all your money at Cowher then go ahead.

Rjspartan
01-22-2009, 02:52 PM
how about guys who have been in football and that aren't extremely overrated like Cowher. Do your research and get someone(Jeff Jagodzinski)
so you would take your chances on jagodzinski with no nfl head coaching experience then instead of a superbowl winning coach who has been to 2 superbowls, 6 afc conference championships, and won 150 games. no you need to do your research idiot!

PACKmanN
01-22-2009, 02:56 PM
so you would take your chances on jagodzinski with no nfl head coaching experience then instead of a superbowl winning coach who has been to 2 superbowls, 6 afc conference championships, and won 150 games. no you need to do your research idiot!
He doesn't want to coach, can't you get that through your head...everyone has to take chances, how do you think they all start...

Rjspartan
01-22-2009, 03:03 PM
He doesn't want to coach, can't you get that through your head...everyone has to take chances, how do you think they all start...

if you look at my first post on this thread i said.............
i would only want Fox fired if we can get cowher
i don't think we will get cowher either but if he goes to any team it might be carolina.

SchizophrenicBatman
01-22-2009, 07:04 PM
I don't want Cowher either. I think he'd be Seifert 2.0

The Jagz hype just strikes me like a Jason Garret thing. A guy who gets way overrated because he was put in a position where it's near impossible to fail. If he had stayed at BC for another year or two the football world's opinion of him would have soured fast