American Idol is a disease to the music business

[bigmac076]

Where do I begin? Let's start with the fact that people watching at home most likely have no musical talent whatsoever, but they are permitted to vote for who shall make it big in music, right? What happend to playing clubs and acutally working for success. These days if Simon likes you, you're all set. Ridiculous.

[Go_Eagles77]

Who cares. Some people find it to be an entertaining show, and it's not like all the past winners are terrible.

[MetSox17]

Where do I begin? Let's start with the fact that people watching at home most likely have no musical talent whatsoever, but they are permitted to vote for who shall make it big in music, right? What happend to playing clubs and acutally working for success. These days if Simon likes you, you're all set. Ridiculous.

No doubt it's a popularity contest once the actual show begins, but you do realize that the judges are the ones that decide on what talent actually gets on the show, right?

The only instance i can think of where the most talented person didn't win the competition, and that was when Taylor Hicks beat Katharine McPhee. Either way, success carries through if you're talented or not.

[Modano]

Well I've never been a big fan of the show, but David Cook is a very talented guy. His voice is amazing.

[SeanTaylorRIP]

Well its just like the real world. People don't buy the albums of the most talented artists, they buy the albums of the artists who are promoted the best and have the most appealing image. I'm not a fan of the show but at least I know that the artists on this show can legitimately sing instead of some loser who gets rich because they have an appealing image and produce a "studio" song but in fact can't sing. This show at least brings legitimacy to the artists. There are over a thousand artists who are mutlimillionare grammy winning, but couldn't stand in front of America every week and sing live to be critiqued by judges. I guarantee you Britney Spears or T-pain are on American Idol and they couldn't last a day.

[MetSox17]

Well its just like the real world. People don't buy the albums of the most talented artists, they buy the albums of the artists who are promoted the best and have the most appealing image. I'm not a fan of the show but at least I know that the artists on this show can legitimately sing instead of some loser who gets rich because they have an appealing image and produce a "studio" song but in fact can't sing. This show at least brings legitimacy to the artists. There are over a thousand artists who are mutlimillionare grammy winning, but couldn't stand in front of America every week and sing live to be critiqued by judges. I guarantee you Britney Spears or T-pain are on American Idol and they couldn't last a day.

Couldn't have said it better myself. At the end of the day, the fans vote for their favorite singers, but let's not kid ourselves here, they're all very very good singers. The one d-bag that couldn't sing and won the competition just fell off the face of the earth (taylor hicks).

[Go_Eagles77]

Couldn't have said it better myself. At the end of the day, the fans vote for their favorite singers, but let's not kid ourselves here, they're all very very good singers. The one d-bag that couldn't sing and won the competition just fell off the face of the earth (taylor hicks).
He also beat out Chris Daughtry that year.

[iowatreat54]

If I was ever one American Idol and was actually pretty good, I would try to make it to like the final 5 or 10 or whatever, and then tank on purpose. That way, I get eliminated, don't have to sign the ****** contract from the guy that owns the show, and can sign a contract with an actual good label.

[MetSox17]

He also beat out Chris Daughtry that year.

That was probably the best thing that could have ever happened to him.

If I was ever one American Idol and was actually pretty good, I would try to make it to like the final 5 or 10 or whatever, and then tank on purpose. That way, I get eliminated, don't have to sign the ****** contract from the guy that owns the show, and can sign a contract with an actual good label.

Yeah, i can agree with this, but i think once you get pretty high, they hold your rights. Simon Cowell pretty much owns you if you win, but that's not always a bad thing. If you're talented and marketable, you'll blow up.

[Shane P. Hallam]

They only hold rights to #1.

[iowatreat54]

That was probably the best thing that could have ever happened to him.



Yeah, i can agree with this, but i think once you get pretty high, they hold your rights. Simon Cowell pretty much owns you if you win, but that's not always a bad thing. If you're talented and marketable, you'll blow up.

Yea, it's not so much for like sales, but the fact that they make you go on ****** tours and do worthless appearances and dumb **** to promote the show. I would rather get a real contract and, you know, have it about me and promoting my music rather than for the benefit of that POS show.

[Twiddler]

Like others have said, I think the music industry itself is the problem. But that's not saying that I think American Idol is good, I can't really stand it. And quite honestly, crap like Miley Cyrus and The Jonas Brothers are worse than anything the non-Disney music industry has put out in my eyes...

[Go_Eagles77]

The worst thing about the show is Paula Abdul IMO. She makes me want to stab myself in the ear.

[CashmoneyDrew]

Chris Daughtry is a saint! Plus this show gives us all kinds of hotties like Carrie Underwood, Kelly Clarkson, Katherine McPhee, Kellie Pickler and so on.

[themaninblack]

This, Twilight, and Soulja Boy will be the demise of America, nay, the world.

[Shane P. Hallam]

Not when Soulja Boy gets owned by the internet:

See Soulja Boy Challenge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHXBqo6RgN4

See the internet accept:
http://www.screwattack.com/Random/WeAccept

See Soulja Boy get called out:
http://www.screwattack.com/Random/WeAccept2

[gameplaya2435]

Listen to your own music and don't worry about the **** the music industry/radio pumps out.

/thread

[soybean]

seriously, these singers at least know how to sing. Look what happened when ashley simpson's voice was live and not digitally altered turned out she's as tone deaf as most of us.

[Whistler6]

This, Twilight, and Soulja Boy will be the demise of America, nay, the world.


The doom of us all...

[nrk]

It isn't only a disease to the music business but the to the television business as well. It has spawned even more horrifying shows.

[steelersfan43]

Where do I begin? Let's start with the fact that people watching at home most likely have no musical talent whatsoever, but they are permitted to vote for who shall make it big in music, right? What happend to playing clubs and acutally working for success. These days if Simon likes you, you're all set. Ridiculous.
Your reasoning doesnt make sense, "Making it big" means you are very popular with the people and sell alot of crap... The people vote on this show buddy.

I hate american idol btw

[M.O.T.H.]

meh...I only have two gripes with this show really.

1. It's corny as hell
2. They let previously signed artists get on the show ("ringers" if you will)

But yeah, it's not easy to get in the music business...I honestly dont get the hate really. I think a lot of people just hate it because, everyone else loves the show. I agree it's corny and repetitive with it's sappy stories and Seacrest is a major tool but, there is surely worse crap on television. I dont even like this show but, giving normal folk a chance to make it big in something they love, doesnt really grind my gears all that much.

[MetSox17]

I thought you weren't allowed to audition if you had been previously signed?

[M.O.T.H.]

I thought you weren't allowed to audition if you had been previously signed?

That's what they say but, apparently that's a load of bull. I even turned it on like last week or so and some girl was previously signed to A&M records or w/e and still was allowed to audition and made it. Also, that Archuleta kid and Clarkson were previously signed artists before American idol. Perhaps it's independent lables? I have no Idea but, in any case the show has a bunch of ringers every year.

[Go_Eagles77]

Yeah so much for "undiscovered talent".

[MetSox17]

That's what they say but, apparently that's a load of bull. I even turned it on like last week or so and some girl was previously signed to A&M records or w/e and still was allowed to audition and made it. Also, that Archuleta kid and Clarkson were previously signed artists before American idol. Perhaps it's independent lables? I have no Idea but, in any case the show has a bunch of ringers every year.

Well honestly, if the label was too dumb not to notice Clarkson's immense talent, they deserved to have lost her.

[giantsfan]

Is it really that bad? I mean I've only seen like one episode of this show, got boring and repetitive, but it just seemed like a great way to make fun of losers who can't sing and crushing their completely unrealistic dreams.

[MetSox17]

Is it really that bad? I mean I've only seen like one episode of this show, got boring and repetitive, but it just seemed like a great way to make fun of losers who can't sing and crushing their completely unrealistic dreams.

That's actually the only part of the show i don't like. I don't like seeing idiots making fools out of themselves, just wasting time, and then the people that honestly do try out get insulted out of the audition room.

Once the competition begins you start having your favorites and that's when it gets more enjoyable. There's no doubt that they're all very talented singers though, this isn't Americas Got talent.

[bigmac076]

Wow. Someone plummets my rep for making a thread expressing my views on a TV show. I mean this is the Off-Topic thread, not like it isnt allowed. Or wait, are we not allowed to give our opinion? And better yet, the douchebag doesn't even post in the thread. Unbelieveable.

[SeanTaylorRIP]

Wow. Someone plummets my rep for making a thread expressing my views on a TV show. I mean this is the Off-Topic thread, not like it isnt allowed. Or wait, are we not allowed to give our opinion? And better yet, the douchebag doesn't even post in the thread. Unbelieveable.

lol thats kinda funny, I put you back up.

[MetSox17]

lol thats kinda funny, I put you back up.

Now why would you do that strip. Now i'm gonna have to go and.....

[fischbowl]

I was respectfully disagreeing with you asshole. Don't ******* come out and personally attack me. It's ******* rep, deal with it. Maybe post something worthwhile if you care so much about it.

A music fan indeed, they don't play what I listen to per say on the show itself, but I am going to admit. I am a huge fan of the show. Many of the top recording artists over the last few years have come right out of the show, some being Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood, and Chris Daughtry. The whole purpose of reality TV is to give the public some say in what happens on the show. It's not ******* scripted, thats the point. It was revolutionary in a sense that previous reality shows like Survivor didn't do that.

I agree with STRIP, the show shines a light on some regular people with talent. In today's world talentless family members of famous people such as Ashlee Simpson or actresses such as Hilary Duff are the only ones who seem to make it in today's pop music. And if that's such a big deal for you, you matter as well move to Soviet Russia

[Brent]

well move to Soviet Russia
In Soviet Russia, Idol votes for youuuuuuuuu!

[CashmoneyDrew]

i sincerely hope that every single winner/finalist/whatever fails miserably.

Lol. Did Rueben Studdard eat a family member of yours or something?

[nrk]

no, he's just a worthless hack.

being able to sing good (on its own) isn't interesting and it certainly isn't indicative of musical talent, in any way, shape or form.

I second this post.

[badgerbacker]

While you may not find 'being able to sing good' interesting, the 30 million or however many viewers they get to make it the most watched show on television obviously disagree with you.

[bigmac076]

Keep -repping me, folks. Obviously I've offended some of you and your lame TV show. If this is what the -rep is for then I'll take it.

[bigmac076]

I was respectfully disagreeing with you asshole.

Ok buddy so a -rep with the note "**** You" is respectful eh? I want more -rep from all you "Idol" fans.

[badgerbacker]

It doesn't need to be completely about musical talent. It is supposed to be a popularity contest. You are trying to look too deeply into it. People just choose the contestant that they most want to listen to.

And edit: if you watch the show, the judges (or at least Simon) know what they are looking for. They want people who have looks, personalities, and voices which the viewers will like. They are trying to find pop stars, not America's best singer.

[bantx]

Ok buddy so a -rep with the note "**** You" is respectful eh? I want more -rep from all you "Idol" fans.

you ask and you will receive...

[bigmac076]

you ask and you will receive...

Thank You http://draftcountdown.com/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif, as if rep on this board means anything.

[bigmac076]

Funny thing is I get all my negative rep from the Off Topic forum, when this site is all about sports. So keep it coming.

[badgerbacker]

Funny thing is I get all my negative rep from the Off Topic forum, when this site is all about sports. So keep it coming.Dude, take it easy about the neg rep. Rep received from an online forum isn't that big of a deal. A little guess I have though, the more you complain about receiving bad rep, the more you will receive. I haven't neg repped you at all, but I can give you some positive rep if it means that much to you.

And njx, you are definitely on to something about music in general. I'm glad you understand the problem doesn't stem from American Idol.

[bigmac076]

Dude, take it easy about the neg rep. Rep received from an online forum isn't that big of a deal. A little guess I have though, the more you complain about receiving bad rep, the more you will receive. I haven't neg repped you at all, but I can give you some positive rep if it means that much to you.

I didn't have much to begin with, so its not a big deal. But I'm saying I got all my +rep from actual sports related posts, and now American Idol fans are -repping me for giving an subjective opinion about a television show. So -rep from this thread means nothing to me really.

[bantx]

you got the neg rep the way you went about it, you sure do bring up rep a lot for a person who doesnt care about it.

[bigmac076]

you got the neg rep the way you went about it, you sure do bring up rep a lot for a person who doesnt care about it.

Not that I dont care about it, only thing that matters to me is where the negative/positive rep is from. If the -rep is from a discussion about American Idol, like I said, it doesnt matter to me.

[CashmoneyDrew]

Quit talking about rep. It's pointless and overrated. The only reason I like rep is to neg rep the trolls like starheather. It makes me feel all warm inside.

/rep discussion.


I'll respectfully disagree with njx9 on this one. I think Carrie Underwood is pretty damn talented. I hate country music with a passion but I actually listen to a few of her songs. If a singer can make me turn my back on the hate I feel for their genre, then they have to have some talent. Although, as a drummer I do sometimes have a little more respect for people who take time and learn to play instruments.

[Paul]

Not a fan of the show really, but if they keep finding these...

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h308/bendzgerona/Ramielemalubay.jpg

Keep on going. :)

[nrk]

Quit talking about rep. It's pointless and overrated. The only reason I like rep is to neg rep the trolls like starheather. It makes me feel all warm inside.

/rep discussion.


I'll respectfully disagree with njx9 on this one. I think Carrie Underwood is pretty damn talented. I hate country music with a passion but I actually listen to a few of her songs. If a singer can make me turn my back on the hate I feel for their genre, then they have to have some talent. Although, as a drummer I do sometimes have a little more respect for people who take time and learn to play instruments.

Or people who actually write their own music.

[CashmoneyDrew]

Or people who actually write their own music.

True. I don't know about the other idols but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Kelly Clarkson wrote most if not all the songs on her breakaway album.

[vidae]

I watch it until it gets to an actual competition because the auditions are funny. Yeah, Seacrest is a tool but I know what I'm getting when I watch it: entertainment.

As for the being signed to a label, I thought if you were CURRENTLY signed to one you couldn't audition but if you weren't you could. Maybe that's wrong, I'm not entirely sure, but the chick from a week or so ago wasn't CURRENTLY signed, the label dropped her (she said this) so she was unsigned then.

[doingthisinsteadofwork]

I'm still suprised this show is still on. Its kinda like the Rocky series except worse.

[nrk]

True. I don't know about the other idols but I'm pretty sure I remember reading that Kelly Clarkson wrote most if not all the songs on her breakaway album.

I wasn't sure if she did or not but I'm pretty sure most of the other idols don't.

[bigmac076]

Quit talking about rep. It's pointless and overrated. The only reason I like rep is to neg rep the trolls like starheather. It makes me feel all warm inside.

/rep discussion.


I'll respectfully disagree with njx9 on this one. I think Carrie Underwood is pretty damn talented. I hate country music with a passion but I actually listen to a few of her songs. If a singer can make me turn my back on the hate I feel for their genre, then they have to have some talent. Although, as a drummer I do sometimes have a little more respect for people who take time and learn to play instruments.

As a drummer myself, I totally agree. But Im not going to say that a voice is not an instrument. My opinion is, the difference of a singer alone getting to the top seems quite easier. Especially with the help of a TV show. A band these days (depending on the genre) still has got to do it the hard way. Unless someone in the band knows somebody, but thats a whole other discussion. If you're a great singer these days:

1: Go on American Idol.
2. Sing a song written by someone else.
3: Fans and Simon approve.
4: Record deal.

Rinse and repeat.

[CashmoneyDrew]

*shrug* to each their own. i just don't see anything about being able to sing that makes someone that much more talented than someone else. to qualify: we're not exactly talking about opera singers here. we're talking about pop singers. and we're further talking about a very small subset of the potential cast (based on age requirements/appearance requirements, etc). if any of these people wrote their own music, or played an instrument, or demonstrated an ability to do anything other than read a piece of paper and keep their metabolism up, i'd be much more interested in their musical ability. as it is? i couldn't care less.

They did have a show on fox very similar to American Idol for people who were in bands and played their own instruments. It only lasted one season though unfortunately. At least I think. It was pretty entertaining. There were a lot of bands from Nashville and they were pretty spread out genre wise too. Not just country music. I'm surprised that show didn't last longer.

[drowe]

meh.

1-yeah. wifey likes it..so, i watch it.

2-it's not bad tv. some of the contestents are either likeable, good singers, have good taste in music or hot....but never more than 2 of those 4.

3-problem is; once the show is over, the songs that get written for the idols, or finalists are TERRIBLE. really. i think the songs are written using the same formula south park claims family guy uses to write episodes. so generic. everything that sucks about today's music.

4-the first round of the contestants being in hollywood is always the best. much fun drama.

5-anytime somebody complains about rep, i neg rep 'em. nothing personal bigmac. :)

[Gay Ork Wang]

njx9 ud love the the german idols, they all fail incredibly, i mean i dont think there is one band or singer of any casting show really that stayed for more than like half a year

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I have a lot of appreciation for people who can sing, but American Idol never really grabbed me.

But what people are saying is true. The problem with the music industry is much more deeply seeded than simply a yearly popularity contest.

[giantsfan]

Not that I dont care about it, only thing that matters to me is where the negative/positive rep is from. If the -rep is from a discussion about American Idol, like I said, it doesnt matter to me.

really?....

Wow. Someone plummets my rep for making a thread expressing my views on a TV show. I mean this is the Off-Topic thread, not like it isnt allowed. Or wait, are we not allowed to give our opinion? And better yet, the douchebag doesn't even post in the thread. Unbelieveable.

[Gay Ork Wang]

the kenyan version was also pretty god awful. and no, that's not sarcasm. i watched it when i was in nairobi last summer. just horrendous.
i doubt there is anything worse than the german version

[giantsfan]

My biggest problem with the show is that they're recruit pop singers. So they're looking for people who's actual singing ability is almost insignificant. I mean these aren't people who's voices are just so amazing that you'll listen to them sing anything because of how they can sing, so this show really isn't about the music. But again this is a gripe I have with popular music in general and isn't limited to the show but rather the industry. i mean if they had singers like this: VK9qfVQ4Z04 and what they sang really highlighted their voices instead of being just catchy crap I'd actually watch the show. Now if I'm wrong about this show I guess I'll give it a shot but everytime I've tried to get into it I just couldn't because what was being "sung" wasn't really musically appealing to me.

[NYGibril28]

i can proudly say i've never watched an episode.

[MetSox17]

certainly doesn't stem from it, however american idol is a really easy scapegoat, given that it's pretty representative of what the music industry has become.



*shrug* to each their own. i just don't see anything about being able to sing that makes someone that much more talented than someone else. to qualify: we're not exactly talking about opera singers here. we're talking about pop singers. and we're further talking about a very small subset of the potential cast (based on age requirements/appearance requirements, etc). if any of these people wrote their own music, or played an instrument, or demonstrated an ability to do anything other than read a piece of paper and keep their metabolism up, i'd be much more interested in their musical ability. as it is? i couldn't care less.

As someone that does both of these things for a living, i can tell you right off the bat, that learning to play an instrument is a million times easier than being able to sing. I've played the trumpet for 12 years now (and going), and i've been singing for 4. I can drop my instrument, pick it up a year later and it would take me a week to get my chops back to the way they were before i stopped. Once you know, you know. Reading music isn't very difficult either. Being able to sing on pitch, add vibrato to your voice, project and have overall control and balance is a hell of a task. Add to that the fact that you're either gifted or not enough to sing, it becomes a tough thing to do.

I stated earlier that it is a popularity contest, and as Sanjaya and Chicken Little (forgot his actual name) have proven, when you're on the show you don't necessarily need to be performing well to advance through weeks, but ultimately, the best rise to the top.

[CJSchneider]

This guy owned

Zcc8dTqflh8

[MetSox17]

as someone who's done both "professionally" (not that that makes a lick of difference), i'll happily and completely disagree. i don't know why you're making it out as if these people are amazing singers. they hit pitch, they get decently high and they have decent breath control. they're not anymore exceptional than the vast majority of people who sing and play an instrument and write their own music in other label bands. except that they're not talented enough to write the music or play anything.

How does it not make a lick of a difference if you're experienced in the difficulties that both those things can bring?

Kelly Clarkson is both an amazing singer (yes, more than the majority of people in labels and anywhere), and she writes her own music.

Carrie Underwood writes her own music and is a better singer vocally than about 95% of country music singers.

Leona Lewis (whom Simon Cowell "found" on the UK version of idol), is probably a top five vocalist, regardless of genre in the United States and the UK. I believe she wrote her music as well.

The premise of the show is to bring popularity and success to those that are both talented enough to make the show, and marketable enough to be commercial success. Other than the fact that the winner remains signed with Cowell's label, i don't see why you would wish ill on any of them.

[MetSox17]

because neither my experience playing bass/guitar and singing and your experience playing trumpet and singing are representative of anything other than what we're good at and what we have to work at. do you think pavarotti struggled every day just to hit pitch? i certainly don't think hendrix spent decades taking lessons. so the fact that one person can pick one up and be naturally ahead of others isn't overly relevant. it's less so when one considers that you've spent 12 years playing trumpet and 4 years singing. of course you can pick up the trumpet any time you want right now. you played for 12 years. were those numbers reversed, i believe you'd be saying the opposite. but given that conjecture isn't really ever relevant...

What i was trying to get across is that a lot of people, including the ones i mentioned, have natural born talents. A lot of people can pick up an instrument, and with practice and time invested, you can become a good to very good player. Obviously there's phenoms like Hendrix and Van Halen, or whoever else you consider naturally great, but i'm saying that you can learn to be good at playing an instrument. William Hung (the guy on the video that CJ posted) can hire a thousand vocal coaches and he'd never be a good singer. He can grab a drum set, and play that thing non stop for a year and i guarantee you he can be a good player


she may write her own music, but i don't rate her voice as any better than most of the people singing on the same label. "since u been gone" is neither musically interesting nor, from what i remember, technically difficult. to me, it was completely boring. as someone already pointed out, a lot of people are ok with things that aren't technically difficult or musically interesting. there's a reason britney spears exists, for instance.

Could you name some of the people signed on RCA that you think are better vocalists than her? I agree that some of her music was pop-ish, but that doesn't take away from the fact that she's a great singer. I thought her second album was great. She really showed more of her strong vocals in that album. I agree completely that there's talentless "artists" out there that are financially successful, but i would hardly consider them talented. Your example is a very good one, Britney Spears was a product of teen hype and perfect timing.

further, since it's a repeating theme, while writing your own music is infinitely better than not writing it ever, there's a major difference between someone who has talent and can do it well, and someone like james labrie, who's a worthless hack.

I had never heard of James Labrie before reading your post.

carrie underwood is a nobody if she's not drop dead gorgeous, let's not pretend otherwise. she also uses a co-writer, as far as i'm aware.

as far as being better than other country music singers... well, i'll take your word for it. she's certainly better than most of the country i've heard over the last decade, but that's not actually saying much.

Like we've been doing most of this thread, i'll strongly disagree that you're crediting her musical success to her beauty alone. While she is stunningly beautiful, and i'll concede that that might have some influence in her success, i think she is a great singer. There is plenty of country singers with good vocals (Martina McBride, Faith Hill, Reba McEntire to name a few), so it's not like she's competing against nobodies.


you would bring in UK versions of shows, which are almost always better than the US counterparts.

i'll honestly say i have no idea who she is, and until i do, i'll modify my comment:

"i hope all the contestants and finalists on the AMERICAN version of the show fail miserably."

As someone who has no access whatsoever outside of YouTube videos of UK shows, i can not comment on them being "better" than American shows. I sure know that Leona Lewis is an amazing singer here, in England, in Spain, in Russia....i think you get the jist of this.

and if i ran the world, the show would concentrate on bringing people with more talent than the ability to grow c cups and hit high e to the stage so that people might actually start listening to decent music, instead of whatever crap TRL is currently infested with.

I don't think the show has as big an influence on what teens listen to when compared to MTV and/or VH1, honestly.


because i'm a hateful, spiteful ******* and because their style of pop "music" makes me ill.
Can't disagree much here.



Responses in bold.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

To think that even American Idol influences people's listening habits is probably disingenuous. The show only pushes as far as it feels its base would accept, and its base is purely made of up pop-loving idiots who watch it because it reinforces their own crappy taste in music.

If someone were to break that cycle, it wouldn't change the other contributor. If American Idol actually looked for musicians and classically talented singers, the watchers would probably find another show. Because that's really what American Idol sells. It sells the idea of possible success from simply having been born with an extraordinary voice (even when the contestants are well trained, the show seems to downplay that fact).

Maybe I'm wrong, because my impression of the show comes from highly sporadic watching, but I wouldn't hope for some kind of aesthetic responsibility from any show of its kind.

[MetSox17]

To think that even American Idol influences people's listening habits is probably disingenuous. The show only pushes as far as it feels its base would accept, and its base is purely made of up pop-loving idiots who watch it because it reinforces their own crappy taste in music.

If someone were to break that cycle, it wouldn't change the other contributor. If American Idol actually looked for musicians and classically talented singers, the watchers would probably find another show. Because that's really what American Idol sells. It sells the idea of possible success from simply having been born with an extraordinary voice (even when the contestants are well trained, the show seems to downplay that fact).

Maybe I'm wrong, because my impression of the show comes from highly sporadic watching, but I wouldn't hope for some kind of aesthetic responsibility from any show of its kind.

Seriously, that's about as ignorant and condescending a remark as i've heard in a long time. I can understand the criticism of the premise of the show, and the attention it garners for it ultimately being "pop" music, but c'mon. There's plenty of people that watch it, myself included, that are not anymore swayed by what comes out on the show than what i see on TV or the radio.

And to the people that think it's all "pop", you do realize that every week they're given a theme to sing to, right? They've had weeks of Queen, Barry Manilow, Latin music, Dolly Parton, etc. There's plenty of artists that go and help during the week and they sing their songs.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I'm merely pointing out the commercial techniques the show employs.

I never said that everyone who loves the show is an idiot or that they watch it purely to feel good about their listening choices, but the show clearly plays to the idea that their key group of watchers (hence my use of the term "base") is of a certain kind, and I stand by my comments in that regard. The show doesn't try to expand musical horizons and it tends to weed out the unconventional artists rather quickly (from what I have watched of the show, a lot of the singers I actually liked got tagged with not being "American Idol material").

And everything they show can directly influence is pop. By most definitions, Queen and Barry Manilow are pop.

[MetSox17]

I'm merely pointing out the commercial techniques the show employs.

I never said that everyone who loves the show is an idiot or that they watch it purely to feel good about their listening choices, but the show clearly plays to the idea that their key group of watchers (hence my use of the term "base") is of a certain kind, and I stand by my comments in that regard. The show doesn't try to expand musical horizons and it tends to weed out the unconventional artists rather quickly (from what I have watched of the show, a lot of the singers I actually liked got tagged with not being "American Idol material").

And everything they show can directly influence is pop. By most definitions, Queen and Barry Manilow are pop.

Well i guess the way it was written sure made it seem that that is what you were implying. They've accepted rock type of singers, country singers, R&B singers, pop singers. The only ones that obviously don't make it are rappers or opra or theatrical type of singers. It's not as narrow a field as you make it out to be.

I'd hardly call Queen pop. But anyway, what i was trying to explain was that they give them different of genres of music to sing weekly, so it's not like the artists are in their "pop" comfort level all season long.

[awfullyquiet]

first. queen is pop.

second. the only reason why this show continues to exist is that they think they're more qualified from their couches to judge than any of those three 'idiots' on there. people want to feel superior. this show allows them to feel that way.

[MetSox17]

first. queen is pop.

second. the only reason why this show continues to exist is that they think they're more qualified from their couches to judge than any of those three 'idiots' on there. people want to feel superior. this show allows them to feel that way.

Well whatever the reason it is that people watch, i for one enjoy watching the singers. I always end up liking one singer more than the others, and it's interesting to see how they fare weekly and whether they get to go on. If people watch it to feel empowered through the voting, well to each his own, i guess.

[andyjo672]

Ok buddy so a -rep with the note "**** You" is respectful eh? I want more -rep from all you "Idol" fans.

Sounds like someone's garage band got made fun of at the local edition of American Idol...

[Crickett]

I don't watch American Idol. I never have. I think there may be something wrong with me. :(

[giantsfan]

I think there may be something wrong with me. :(

You are a jets fan...

[bigmac076]

Simon rules

[G-Mac]

That way, I get eliminated, don't have to sign the ****** contract from the guy that owns the show, and can sign a contract with an actual good label.

Actually, the owners of the show work for 19Entertainment/Recordings and as soon as a contestant makes the top twelve, 19E has first dibs on signing a contestant; the contestants have no say. Chris Daughtry, while immensely successful at the moment, was owned by Simon Fuller (19E) until his Idol contract expired. He then resigned with them after that.

Honestly, the only bad part of getting the contract is if you win you have to sing a watered-down coronation song.

The show is a joke for the first couple months or so, but once the top five or six are left, the talent is evident. Idol will be known for the Sanjaya's and William Hungs of the world, but they also discovered Kelly Clarkson, Carrie Underwood, Chris Daughtry, Jennifer Hudson, and David Cook. So the show is legitimate to an extent.

[ShutDwn]

They rarely do anything, and no one outside the American Idol fanbase buys their stuff, so what is the issue? How many non fans can name someone other than Kelly Clarkson and Clay Aiken? I can think of about one more, Ruben.

Guitar Hero is more of a problem, kids should pick up a real guitar or drums. In the end the game and systems are more expensive than a cheap guitar or drumset.

[bigmac076]

Guitar Hero is more of a problem, kids should pick up a real guitar or drums. In the end the game and systems are more expensive than a cheap guitar or drumset.

Very good point, I totally agree. Learn the real thing first.

[CashmoneyDrew]

I completely disagree with the rock band/guitar hero thing. I had already been playing drums for years before I started playing it but it's a great way to "jam" with your friends if you don't want to lug your instruments to other places. It can also peak interest in learning a real instrument. I know a few people who started playing guitar some after they played those games.

[slightlyaraiderfan]

Todays radio friendly music is not good for the soul, and that's what American Idol produces.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I completely disagree with the rock band/guitar hero thing. I had already been playing drums for years before I started playing it but it's a great way to "jam" with your friends if you don't want to lug your instruments to other places. It can also peak interest in learning a real instrument. I know a few people who started playing guitar some after they played those games.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy Rock Band as being any sort of substitute for jamming with friends.

[CashmoneyDrew]

I'm sorry, but I can't buy Rock Band as being any sort of substitute for jamming with friends.

It's not a complete substitute. Only on those days when you don't feel like lugging your **** back and forth. Especially if you have a small car and don't have the proper carrying cases for drums. That gets old quick.

[awfullyquiet]

It's not a complete substitute. Only on those days when you don't feel like lugging your **** back and forth. Especially if you have a small car and don't have the proper carrying cases for drums. That gets old quick.

People learn the art of 'practicing' which is great. I could sit and practice bass like I'd practice guitar hero. By the way. For GH3, That one ****** disturbed song is WAY easier on guitar than on GH.

[ShutDwn]

I'm sorry, but I can't buy Rock Band as being any sort of substitute for jamming with friends.

It is like calling Madden throwing the football around with the guys.

The southpark episode put it perfectly, when Stan's dad tries to teach them real guitar and they don't care.

What is cooler: being able to play a real guitar, for real people, or a video game with five buttons?


I just wish that kids had the same enthusiasm and addiction to real instruments as they do to the video game.

[MetSox17]

It is like calling Madden throwing the football around with the guys.

The southpark episode put it perfectly, when Stan's dad tries to teach them real guitar and they don't care.

What is cooler: being able to play a real guitar, for real people, or a video game with five buttons?


I just wish that kids had the same enthusiasm and addiction to real instruments as they do to the video game.

Not everyone is as musically inclined as others, that's a given. Some kids just wanna have something fun to play with, and it really is a great way to have fun with your friends, especially if you're drunk off your ass. There's a lot of rock music lovers out there that wanna feel like they're jamming out without having to actually go out and learn the guitar. Not everyone wants to be a musician.

Not everyone is athletic or coordinated enough to be a football player, yet you have millions of Madden-ites. It's the same way with GH.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Yes, but while Madden is fun, organizing a football game with friends is much more fun. And while Guitar Hero or Rock Band are fun, jamming together with friends without having to adhere to a bunch of crawling notes is much more fun.

I understand why the games appeal to people. But I can't imagine a situation where I was going to hang out with people I jam with and someone reasonably suggested "hey, instead of playing instruments, let's just play rockband!"

[MetSox17]

Yes, but while Madden is fun, organizing a football game with friends is much more fun. And while Guitar Hero or Rock Band are fun, jamming together with friends without having to adhere to a bunch of crawling notes is much more fun.

I understand why the games appeal to people. But I can't imagine a situation where I was going to hang out with people I jam with and someone reasonably suggested "hey, instead of playing instruments, let's just play rockband!"

I happen to agree, but not everyone shares our same view on games, and that doesn't necessarily make their opinion any more right than yours and mine. I know plenty of people that would prefer to play rockband or madden over a lot of things. They just have no interest whatsoever in learning an instrument, but do it for the fun it brings.

And when you play music i guarantee you you're gonna have to adhere to a bunch of crawling notes at one point or another. When you learned to play the instrument, you had to see charts or what not. If you learned everything by ear, you're in for a **** attack when someone asks you to play something in a different key and you don't know what the hell they're talking about.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

And when you play music i guarantee you you're gonna have to adhere to a bunch of crawling notes at one point or another. When you learned to play the instrument, you had to see charts or what not. If you learned everything by ear, you're in for a **** attack when someone asks you to play something in a different key and you don't know what the hell they're talking about.

I've been playing music by ear since I was 8 years old and can get along fine. Learning music theory and reading music don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. All you have to do is get a working model of music theory in your mind and apply it to the instrument you're playing.

[MetSox17]

I've been playing music by ear since I was 8 years old and can get along fine. Learning music theory and reading music don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. All you have to do is get a working model of music theory in your mind and apply it to the instrument you're playing.

So if you were asked to play a song, you'd rather take it out by ear than read it off a piece of paper?

[The Unseen]

they're in Jacksonville tonight.

win

[Paranoidmoonduck]

So if you were asked to play a song, you'd rather take it out by ear than read it off a piece of paper?

Certainly. It helps me get to know the song much better as well as critically think about ways to make small changes that make musical sense.

[MetSox17]

Certainly. It helps me get to know the song much better as well as critically think about ways to make small changes that make musical sense.

So how do you know what key a song is in just by ear?

[Paranoidmoonduck]

So how do you know what key a song is in just by ear?

I don't have perfect pitch or anything (sadly) so I have to sort of calculate backwards by identifying the scale and zeroing in on the root. Some come quicker than others, but I'm still getting more comfortable with theory these days. If I'm playing bass and someone kicks off a song, I can usually easily figure out something to go along with it without any thought towards key.

[MetSox17]

I don't have perfect pitch or anything (sadly) so I have to sort of calculate backwards by identifying the scale and zeroing in on the root. Some come quicker than others, but I'm still getting more comfortable with theory these days. If I'm playing bass and someone kicks off a song, I can usually easily figure out something to go along with it without any thought towards key.

I've been playing by ear for three years now, and improvising isn't hard once i know the key, but i wouldn't be able to tell you the key of a song by ear if my life depended on it. I ask the other guys in the group what the key is, they tell me and well i know the scales already so it's simple, but i don't know how you identify just by ear.

And obviously knowing the keys helps you reduce that random note that you pop out once in a while that just doesn't fit.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I've been playing by ear for three years now, and improvising isn't hard once i know the key, but i wouldn't be able to tell you the key of a song by ear if my life depended on it. I ask the other guys in the group what the key is, they tell me and well i know the scales already so it's simple, but i don't know how you identify just by ear.

And obviously knowing the keys helps you reduce that random note that you pop out once in a while that just doesn't fit.

Yeah, but jam sessions aren't really meant to be perfect. If you plan to perform a more jam-like part of a song, the scales are already pretty much set, as are the possible chord changes.

[MetSox17]

Yeah, but jam sessions aren't really meant to be perfect. If you plan to perform a more jam-like part of a song, the scales are already pretty much set, as are the possible chord changes.

Oh, i play trumpet for a living lol.

[OSUGiants17]

Yeah, but jam sessions aren't really meant to be perfect. If you plan to perform a more jam-like part of a song, the scales are already pretty much set, as are the possible chord changes.

they aren't ment to be perfect but Jam sessions and Jam bands are my fav.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Oh, i play trumpet for a living lol.

Right. A classical instrument in what I assume is a classical environment and reading music and precision has been the standard for centuries.

Personally, while I find music theory useful, I still have problems embracing it all together because I functioned without it for so long.

[CashmoneyDrew]

I'm gonna be honest. I've played drums for coming up on 10 years and I can't read music at all. I was basically taught through jam sessions with my drum instructor.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I'm gonna be honest. I've played drums for coming up on 10 years and I can't read music at all. I was basically taught through jam sessions with my drum instructor.

Wouldn't you say that drums, being mostly atonal, can most easily escape the need to read music? The only thing I can see theory being a really necessary part of drumming is the exposure to strange time signatures.

[CashmoneyDrew]

Wouldn't you say that drums, being mostly atonal, can most easily escape the need to read music? The only thing I can see theory being a really necessary part of drumming is the exposure to strange time signatures.

I'd definitely agree with that. I hardly ever have too much trouble learning to play a song from memory or listening that is within my skill range. I'm still working hard on my double bass though. It's like starting all over again for me because I just started working on that.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I'd definitely agree with that. I hardly ever have too much trouble learning to play a song from memory or listening that is within my skill range. I'm still working hard on my double bass though. It's like starting all over again for me because I just started working on that.

I'm at a crossroads right now, actually. I want to try and get into playing double bass, but I also want to upgrade my electric bass from my generic little Dean EVO to a Warwick. I can't afford both. And nice double bass' are so damn expensive.

[MetSox17]

Right. A classical instrument in what I assume is a classical environment and reading music and precision has been the standard for centuries.

Personally, while I find music theory useful, I still have problems embracing it all together because I functioned without it for so long.

Well that's how i was taught, yes, but like i said, the past three years i've been playing by ear. I don't play classical music anymore, mostly mariachi, jazz and salsa.

And if you can keep a beat and rhythm, you can play the drums.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

I imagine that playing more latin and south american music would be require becoming slightly less attached to classical rules, since so much of that stuff is off-beat, sometimes in the strangest ways.

[MetSox17]

I imagine that playing more latin and south american music would be require becoming slightly less attached to classical rules, since so much of that stuff is off-beat, sometimes in the strangest ways.

Absolutely. It took me about a year to really get the style for mariachi music. It basically gets all the stuff you learned in classical, rolls it up into a ball and kicks it out the window. Everything i learn is by ear or just given the fingerings to, and your tone and articulation is way way different. I always had a jazzy style to my playing so i've never had problems with that.

[Charm City Byrdgang]

I hate American Idol and everything it stands for, I approve this thread!

[MetSox17]

This is Kelly two years ago at the Idol Gives Back thingie they had. For those that haven't heard her sing.
UhCnPiEoYw4

[Shiver]

Music, to me, is about artistic expression. That is exactly why American Idol is a cancer. Instead of writing their own material, playing shows, and becoming successful from word of mouth they go onto the show sing someone else's song, someone else's emotive experiences. If their lucky they make a bunch of money and get to sign to whatever the AI crack team of music writers come up with for them. In the end we get emotionless, meaningless, karoke music that is indistiguishable from anything else.

David Cook for example, won off of the strength of performances like the rock version of Billie Jean that he ... err... Chris Cornell came up with.

No thanks.

[awfullyquiet]

Well that's how i was taught, yes, but like i said, the past three years i've been playing by ear. I don't play classical music anymore, mostly mariachi, jazz and salsa.

And if you can keep a beat and rhythm, you can play the drums.

It's harder than that. You have to separate your mind from your physical processes to control each limb independently.

Absolutely. It took me about a year to really get the style for mariachi music. It basically gets all the stuff you learned in classical, rolls it up into a ball and kicks it out the window. Everything i learn is by ear or just given the fingerings to, and your tone and articulation is way way different. I always had a jazzy style to my playing so i've never had problems with that.


Tone is key. Biggest thing that gets me is people who are guitarists who don't know a damn about articulation, proper attack, and the value of empty space in music. When they pick up a bass, it becomes all apparent that their flaws are huge in that regard. I have a friend who was in a band, they kicked him out, and the guitarists decided, hey we play better guitar than he can, he's got slow fingers, truth is, playing fast and technical doesn't necessarly make it sound better. as mxpx says. Some pages better left unread. Some words are better left unsaid.

[MetSox17]

It's harder than that. You have to separate your mind from your physical processes to control each limb independently.

You're right, but that's something that can be picked up with time. Some people take longer than others, but it's achievable. I think 90% of beginners, start with the ability to keep a beat and rhythm. If you can't, it's damn near impossible to play music properly. So if you can, with proper work and instruction on the right techniques, you can become a good drummer.


Tone is key. Biggest thing that gets me is people who are guitarists who don't know a damn about articulation, proper attack, and the value of empty space in music. When they pick up a bass, it becomes all apparent that their flaws are huge in that regard. I have a friend who was in a band, they kicked him out, and the guitarists decided, hey we play better guitar than he can, he's got slow fingers, truth is, playing fast and technical doesn't necessarly make it sound better. as mxpx says. Some pages better left unread. Some words are better left unsaid.

I'm not sure if you were confused with my post or if you went off on a different tangent, but i play the trumpet. The concepts are mostly the same though. Playing classical music for my first 8 years, technicality, tone and dynamics were emphasized. Now that i make a living out of mariachi and salsa, i have completely thrown out all that was taught to me before. Now i'm forced to concentrate on projection, obviously intonation that's something you'll always need, and the different articulation that the pieces require.

[CashmoneyDrew]

You're right, but that's something that can be picked up with time. Some people take longer than others, but it's achievable. I think 90% of beginners, start with the ability to keep a beat and rhythm. If you can't, it's damn near impossible to play music properly. So if you can, with proper work and instruction on the right techniques, you can become a good drummer.


You wouldn't believe how many people I've let play my drums and they have no clue what to do when they get on the throne. A great majority of them can't keep rhythm or anything. Some of these people being fellow musicians. It's like people's brains begin to melt away right when they're about to hit a drum. Hell, some people start off holding the drum sticks like chop sticks.

[MetSox17]

You wouldn't believe how many people I've let play my drums and they have no clue what to do when they get on the throne. A great majority of them can't keep rhythm or anything. Some of these people being fellow musicians. It's like people's brains begin to melt away right when they're about to hit a drum. Hell, some people start off holding the drum sticks like chop sticks.

LOL, really? I mean, if fellow musicians can't keep a beat.. I think they're in the wrong business lol. Usually people get better if they practice with metronomes for a while. Also, if you're a bassist and you can't keep a beat, seriously, go start throwing a football.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

Music, to me, is about artistic expression. That is exactly why American Idol is a cancer. Instead of writing their own material, playing shows, and becoming successful from word of mouth they go onto the show sing someone else's song, someone else's emotive experiences. If their lucky they make a bunch of money and get to sign to whatever the AI crack team of music writers come up with for them. In the end we get emotionless, meaningless, karoke music that is indistiguishable from anything else.

Yeah, but any art form that is widely consumable ceases to be just about artistic expression really quickly. Visual artists get hired to construct commercials and billboards, sound artists get hired to create something that isn't objectionable to the ear and doesn't require much conscious thought to process.

Cancer might be a strong word, because it's actually a brilliant scheme by the music industry. You get to take prewritten music, hold a contest which finds at least one commercially marketable package to deliver that music, the contest itself acts as massive advertising for the singers, and then record companies get to hire people who are already household names. This is just the cookie-cutter approach to music standards honed to a science.

It would be a cancer if it was undermining the rest of the music business. But I don't think it really is. It's just perfecting a big pot of mediocrity. No one says you have to eat from it.

[awfullyquiet]

You're right, but that's something that can be picked up with time. Some people take longer than others, but it's achievable. I think 90% of beginners, start with the ability to keep a beat and rhythm. If you can't, it's damn near impossible to play music properly. So if you can, with proper work and instruction on the right techniques, you can become a good drummer.

I'm not sure if you were confused with my post or if you went off on a different tangent, but i play the trumpet. The concepts are mostly the same though. Playing classical music for my first 8 years, technicality, tone and dynamics were emphasized. Now that i make a living out of mariachi and salsa, i have completely thrown out all that was taught to me before. Now i'm forced to concentrate on projection, obviously intonation that's something you'll always need, and the different articulation that the pieces require.


i tangented. people try to do too much than what their skill in technique allows. the concept of how music works is essentially the same across the board, but, like if i play reggae (which i have been known to do), it requires a completely different focus on concepts within an individual session that wouldn't be required while i'm playing something considerably more jazzy and aggressive. an example would be like a classically trained choir vocalist who even when they're in the car singing pop songs, they always sound like a classically trained choir vocalist... i have a girlfriend like that... she hasn't learned how to rock out and not worry about perfect intonation and worry more about how to be dynamic and a little sloppy as it calls for it when you're singing something like... heart.

[CashmoneyDrew]

LOL, really? I mean, if fellow musicians can't keep a beat.. I think they're in the wrong business lol. Usually people get better if they practice with metronomes for a while. Also, if you're a bassist and you can't keep a beat, seriously, go start throwing a football.

I have some really talented friends who play guitar excellently, but like I said, their brains turn to dust on the throne and they can't do **** on drums. Kind of the reverse of this, but I'm struggling with my double bass peddle and complete d-bags with no musical talent will just hop on and ride those sons of bitches like they just got done playing ozzfest on a blow high. Pisses me off to no end.

[Paranoidmoonduck]

You wouldn't believe how many people I've let play my drums and they have no clue what to do when they get on the throne. A great majority of them can't keep rhythm or anything. Some of these people being fellow musicians. It's like people's brains begin to melt away right when they're about to hit a drum. Hell, some people start off holding the drum sticks like chop sticks.

I've always wanted to play a drum kit, but I'm confident that if I sat behind one right now I'd be absolutely awful (and I have pretty good rhythm). Maybe after a week of dedicated practice I would be passable, but it's a drastically different approach to instrument interaction. Most other instruments you have to control your two hands (and perhaps your breath) to make one sound at a time. With drums, it becomes using your four limbs to make four sounds at the same time (if need be). It takes some getting used to.

I've done a lot of work with hand drums, but I'm sure that if I had to do anything behind a drum kit it would be horribly embarrassing.

[awfullyquiet]

I have some really talented friends who play guitar excellently, but like I said, their brains turn to dust on the throne and they can't do **** on drums. Kind of the reverse of this, but I'm struggling with my double bass peddle and complete d-bags with no musical talent will just hop on and ride those sons of bitches like they just got done playing ozzfest on a blow high. Pisses me off to no end.

it's true. conceptially they have no way to transfer anything like that. it's a completely different physical experience from anything musically.

[MetSox17]

i tangented. people try to do too much than what their skill in technique allows. the concept of how music works is essentially the same across the board, but, like if i play reggae (which i have been known to do), it requires a completely different focus on concepts within an individual session that wouldn't be required while i'm playing something considerably more jazzy and aggressive. an example would be like a classically trained choir vocalist who even when they're in the car singing pop songs, they always sound like a classically trained choir vocalist... i have a girlfriend like that... she hasn't learned how to rock out and not worry about perfect intonation and worry more about how to be dynamic and a little sloppy as it calls for it when you're singing something like... heart.

Yeah, i know exactly what you mean because i was that way for a while. Not that i wasn't looking to change, but my brain, fingers and lips were, for 8 years, programmed to play a certain way. The way i learn a lot is by listening to a ton of music. It's that simple for me, honestly.

Arturo Sandoval ftw.