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bearsfan_51
02-01-2009, 03:16 PM
Hello all. I used to follow the HOF much more closely than I do now, when I was working for the historical wing of the HOF (sounds cool, pay sucked). Anyway, the announcements yesterday got me thinking about who I feel has been long overdue for consideration (and no, the list doesn't begin and end with Bo Jackson for you kiddies out there). As you may notice, I left Richard Dent out of the discussion, as I'm just too biased.

In chronological order:

Jerry Kramer, Guard, Green Bay Packers (1958-1968)
http://assets.nydailynews.com/img/2008/01/16/alg_lombardi.jpg
I never really understood why so many Vince Lombardi Packers got into the Hall but not Kramer. He was on the 1960's all-decade team, a 5-time All Pro, a member of the 50th anniversary team in 1969, and #1 on NFL network's players that aren't in the Hall of Fame. Winning 2 Superbowls and 5 championships doesn't hurt either.

Tommy Nobis, Linebacker, Atlanta Falcons (1966-1976)
http://www.atlantasportshalloffame.org/m-9501.jpg
Nobbis was the 1st pick ever for the Atlanta Falcons, and recorded a whopping 294 tackles as a rookie, winning the rookie of the year award. A 5-time pro-bowler, Nobbis is often consider to be a much better player today than he was then, where he was buried by being on awful Atlanta teams.

Claude Humphrey, Defensive End, Atlanta Falcons, Philadelphia Eagles (1968-1981)
http://life.atlantafalcons.com/uploads/1219254389/gallery_196523_38_18899.jpg
I must have something for the Falcons defense of the 1970's. One of the best pass rushers of the decade, Humphrey finished his career with 126.5 sacks. He's been a finalist numerous times, and deserves to make the call.

Ken Stabler, Quarterback, Oakland Raiders (1970-1984)
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/classic_nfl/09/10/raiders/raiders.jpg
If Joe Namath is in the HOF, Stabler should be too. The 1974 NFL MVP, Stabler was one of the best quarterbacks of the 70's and captain of one of the best teams of the decade. He's hurt severely by the 75.4 passer rating and TD/INT ratio, but there is a history of players with poor stats making the HOF, so a case could be made for Stabler.

Robert Brazile, Linebacker, Houston Oilers (1975-1984)
http://www.sportsattic2.com/nflphotos/photos11/Brazile,Robert2.jpg
Although Lawrence Taylor is often credited as the prototype 3-4 OLB, many, including LT, have given Brazile credit as the originator of the pass-rushing linebacker. As the 3-4 continues to increase in popularity, I think it's only fitting that the HOF reconsider their position on Brazile. Brazile, a defensive nightmare used by head coach Bum Phillips, was a 7-time pro bowler, defensive rookie of the year.

Russ Grimm, Guard, Washington Redskins (1981-1991)
http://footballcollectible.com/secure/images/products/RussGrimm-Redskins-150.jpg
Most people know about Grimm by now. A constant on the "Hogs" front of the 1980's, Grimm was by far the best. I hope Grimm gets in at some point, but Jerry Kramer has been waiting for decades.

Deron Cherry, Safety, Kansas City Chiefs (1981-1991)
http://www.georgeblowfish.com/cherry.jpg
One of the best free safties to play the game, Cherry was a 6-time pro bowler from 1983-1988. Cherry holds 50 career interceptions, at a time when passing still wasn't as common as it is today, and is oddly enough a partial owner of the Jacksonville Jaguars. A serious neck injury ended his career.

Roger Craig, Runningback, San Francisco 49'ers(1983-1993)
http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1985/0128_large.jpg
Craig certainly benefitted by being on some great offensive teams, but the 49'ers were a better running team than given credit for. Craig was one of the first "multi-purpose" backs. A 3-time Superbowl champ, Craig is the only runningback to lead the league in receptions for a year, was the 1988 offensive player of the year, and made the playoffs every year of his career.

Kevin Greene, Linebacker, Los Angeles Rams, Pittsburgh Steelers, Carolina Panthers (1985-1999)
http://community.post-gazette.com/cfs-file.ashx/__key/CommunityServer.Components.UserFiles/00.00.00.26.55/kevingreene.jpg
I don't quite understand why Greene doesn't at least get some discussion on these lists. The man has 160 sacks as a linebacker, has a former DPOY, and made 5 pro bowls. Plus he had a super awesome mullet.

Chris Carter, Wide Receiver, Minnesota Vikings (1987-2002)
http://theblackquarterback.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/carter.jpg
I've heard the arguments against Carter. They're pretty weak. Yes he wasn't a game-breaker. Yes, he was arguably second fiddle to Randy Moss much of his career. Yes, his stats are being surpased by other players in the era of receptions. That doesn't take away from Carter's lengthy resume, which should get him in without question.

Shannon Sharpe, Tight End, Denver Broncos (1990-2003)
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2004/football/nfl/05/17/sharpe.retrospective/p1_shannon_sharpe_getty.jpg
Another player that will get in soon without much issue. I can understand why he didn't get in this year (tight ends usually aren't at the front of the line), but he'll get in very soon as he should.

John Randle, Defensive Tackle, Minnesota Vikings (1990-2003)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v201/FalconFB47/324994.jpg
I love John Randle. As a Bears fan I feel like I probably should hate him, but he was so good and played with such a passion that it was hard not to appreciate him. He'll get in pretty soon, just not on the first ballot.


There are others: Cortez Kennedy, Terell Davis, Randall Cunningham, Richard Webb, Dermonti Dawson, Chris Doleman, Steve Atwater,etc., but this is my top list.

bored of education
02-01-2009, 03:27 PM
Ricky Watters was a great RB, a lil tapped but I think he should be an HoFer. Had 10,643 yards rushing and 4,248 yards receiving with 91 TDs A threat to score on every play. 7 straight years of 1500 or more yards from scrimmage. Over a thousand yards from scrimmage in playoff games and 12 TDs in 11 games. Cut his own career short due to being afraid to fly or something.

boknows34
02-01-2009, 03:32 PM
Nice list.

Some more names:

Bob Kuechenberg
Andre Reed
Randy Gradishar
LC Greenwood
Lester Hayes
Cliff Branch
Drew Perason
Harold Carmichael
Jim Marshall
Cliff Harris
Charles Haley
Mark Bavaro
Todd Christensen
Henry Ellard
Sam Mills
Rickey Jackson
Kenny Easley
Albert Lewis

Brent
02-01-2009, 04:00 PM
I thought Ken Stabler was in the HOF. Wow, that's surprising.

Hines
02-01-2009, 04:02 PM
Dick LeBeau.

tjsunstein
02-01-2009, 04:46 PM
Because of my age, I was only able to watch the last four on your list but didnt really follow them in the way I do now. I do remember them being dominant and consistently so.

Shane P. Hallam
02-01-2009, 04:48 PM
Let me just do this so Mr. Stiller will stay out of this thread


OMG DERMONTI DAWSON SHOULD BE NUMMBR 1!!!!!!!1111!!1

jballa838
02-01-2009, 04:56 PM
BF, if you were to rank them 1-12 by most deserving and not chronological order what would it look like?

tony77
02-01-2009, 07:44 PM
I'll play too...

Top 10 guys not in the Hall that should be.

1. Stabler (for the reason initially mentioned...friggin' Namath is in)
2. Cris Carter
3. Kramer
4. Mick Tinglehoff
5. Shannon Sharpe
6. Sterling Sharpe
7. Terrell Davis
8. Kuechenberg
9. Joe Jacoby (More important than Grimm)
10. Randle

princefielder28
02-01-2009, 09:59 PM
Good work bf_51; I agree with a good amount of those

cdub11
02-01-2009, 10:08 PM
nice list, i agree with everyone on it

Mr. Stiller
02-01-2009, 10:25 PM
Let me just do this so Mr. Stiller will stay out of this thread


OMG DERMONTI DAWSON SHOULD BE NUMMBR 1!!!!!!!1111!!1

You don't think the best Center ever to play should be in the HoF?

I would second LeBeau/Greenwood and put a Wildcard.. Donnie Shell, SS.

He has the career record for INT's of a SS. But at the same time, I can understand the limit on 70's steelers.

bearsfan_51
02-01-2009, 11:22 PM
BF, if you were to rank them 1-12 by most deserving and not chronological order what would it look like?
That's a good question. I honestly don't know off the top of my head, which is part of the reason I didn't rank them as such.

Shannon Sharpe would probably be #1 though. As much as I can understand why he didn't make it as a first ballot guy, if he's waiting more than a year or two something is wrong. Jerry Kramer really needs to get in as well. Way more deserving than Bob Hayes. WAAAAAAAAY more deserving.

bearsfan_51
02-01-2009, 11:22 PM
I just can't sign on to Dick LeBeau. No assistant coach should ever make it in the HOF. Assistant is in the name after all. It's like naming the best Vice President, who cares?

Dermonti Dawson was close though.

Smooth Criminal
02-01-2009, 11:48 PM
LeBeau should make it as one of the best defensive minds in history, not to mention he had a great career with the Lions.

He has been in the league at a high level for 50 years now. He deserves it when he retires.

bearsfan_51
02-01-2009, 11:53 PM
LeBeau should make it as one of the best defensive minds in history, not to mention he had a great career with the Lions.

He has been in the league at a high level for 50 years now. He deserves it when he retires.

They don't combine coaching and playing accomplishments. You make it in as one or the other.

Regardless, I'm pretty strongly against coaches and owners in the HOF in general. I wouldn't even vote Bill Cowher in the HOF.

steelernation77
02-01-2009, 11:58 PM
They don't combine coaching and playing accomplishments. You make it in as one or the other.

Regardless, I'm pretty strongly against coaches and owners in the HOF in general. I wouldn't even vote Bill Cowher in the HOF.

I'd vote Lebeau over Cowher.

Dawson most certainly deserves to get in.

Mr. Stiller
02-02-2009, 12:00 AM
I just can't sign on to Dick LeBeau. No assistant coach should ever make it in the HOF. Assistant is in the name after all. It's like naming the best Vice President, who cares?

Dermonti Dawson was close though.

What about LeBeau as a CB though? Didn't the guy hold the record for INT's for a CB for quite a long time in a day in age when they didn't pass the rate they do now?

yourfavestoner
02-02-2009, 12:09 AM
They don't combine coaching and playing accomplishments. You make it in as one or the other.

Regardless, I'm pretty strongly against coaches and owners in the HOF in general. I wouldn't even vote Bill Cowher in the HOF.

As he shouldn't.

John Madden's induction into the Hall of Fame as a "coach" opened the door for a lot of coaches to be given consideration. However, you cannot tell the story of the NFL without John Madden and, ultimately, that is the major consideration as to whether you become a Hall of Famer or not.

boknows34
02-02-2009, 12:11 AM
LeBeau had 62 career interceptions and is tied for 7th all-time. Of the 6 players with more all but one (Ken Riley) is in the HOF.

steelernation77
02-02-2009, 12:12 AM
LeBeau had 62 career interceptions and is tied for 7th all-time. Of the 6 players with more all but one (Ken Riley) is in the HOF.

When you combine that with his contributions to the game as a coordinator, it's hard to keep him out.

nobodyinparticular
02-02-2009, 12:41 AM
Ken Stabler, Quarterback, Oakland Raiders (1970-1984)
http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2007/writers/classic_nfl/09/10/raiders/raiders.jpg
If Joe Namath is in the HOF, Stabler should be too. The 1974 NFL MVP, Stabler was one of the best quarterbacks of the 70's and captain of one of the best teams of the decade. He's hurt severely by the 75.4 passer rating and TD/INT ratio, but there is a history of players with poor stats making the HOF, so a case could be made for Stabler.

I'll play too...

Top 10 guys not in the Hall that should be.

1. Stabler (for the reason initially mentioned...friggin' Namath is in)
2. Cris Carter
3. Kramer
4. Mick Tinglehoff
5. Shannon Sharpe
6. Sterling Sharpe
7. Terrell Davis
8. Kuechenberg
9. Joe Jacoby (More important than Grimm)
10. Randle

Just a question, but what is the quality that Ken Stabler has over Jim Plunkett to get him in the HOF but not Plunk? (i.e. what is Jim missing?)

And for your specific lists, bf_51 you would mention Randall Cunningham, Roger Craig and Deron Cherry over Plunkett? And tony, you think Sterling Sharpe is a better player than Plunkett?

Certainly with Sharpe, I feel that if we use bf's notion of "you can't tell the story of the NFL without him" (which I am sure he will be the first to say that isn't the end-all and I will be the first to agree), Raiders' QB Jim Plunkett fits the bill much more than Sterling Sharpe.

(I would also take this time to mention the name of Lester Hayes. He rarely even gets much mention. That is all)

toddmlazarchick
02-02-2009, 01:29 AM
Tony Latone

Denver Bronco56
02-02-2009, 01:33 AM
Randy Gradishar is one of the biggest snubs....the leader of the Orange Crush D....Great player that should be in the hall

tjsunstein
02-02-2009, 01:34 AM
LeRoy Butler! :D

bearsfan_51
02-02-2009, 02:01 AM
Certainly with Sharpe, I feel that if we use bf's notion of "you can't tell the story of the NFL without him" (which I am sure he will be the first to say that isn't the end-all and I will be the first to agree), Raiders' QB Jim Plunkett fits the bill much more than Sterling Sharpe.

Actually that was YFS's notion, I happen to think it's a rather worthless and misleading one. You can tell a story in a multitude of ways, and I hardly consider half the players in the HOF to be central to any grand narrative on the NFL. It's usually just a subjective way to justify the presence of unworthy players.

Now, why doesn't Jim Plunkett get in? Because he was a bad quarterback. Where Stabler's stats aren't very good, Plunkett's suck. Stabler is a 3x All-Pro selection (which means something, more than the Pro Bowl). Stabler won an MVP award, as well as the Bert Bell. He led the NFL in TD passes and yards twice in his career, is a member of the all 70's team, and was the quickest QB to win 100 games (now passed by Brady and Peyton Manning).

Plunkett started his career as a bust, and redeemed himself only by riding on the back of a very good Raiders organization. He was already 33 before he even started to do anything in the NFL, and even still the results aren't overwhelming.

Honestly, this is a silly argument. Plunkett has no chance at the HOF. None.

tony77
02-02-2009, 06:29 AM
Now, why doesn't Jim Plunkett get in? Because he was a bad quarterback. Where Stabler's stats aren't very good, Plunkett's suck. Stabler is a 3x All-Pro selection (which means something, more than the Pro Bowl). Stabler won an MVP award, as well as the Bert Bell. He led the NFL in TD passes and yards twice in his career, is a member of the all 70's team, and was the quickest QB to win 100 games (now passed by Brady and Peyton Manning).

Plunkett started his career as a bust, and redeemed himself only by riding on the back of a very good Raiders organization. He was already 33 before he even started to do anything in the NFL, and even still the results aren't overwhelming.

Honestly, this is a silly argument. Plunkett has no chance at the HOF. None.

Plunkett's career was a train-wreck for 10 years until the Raiders grabbed him and never faced any great teams on the way to the two Super Bowl wins. Stabler constantly had to deal with the unbelievably great Pittsburgh and Miami teams. Plunkett also NEVER made the Pro Bowl...he was never believed to be a great QB any any point in time back then. Why should we believe it now?

Super Bowls should be used to break ties between guys who are close. If anything, we should be wondering how Joe Theismann has never been considered, not saying he should be in...but you never hear his name, yet Plunkett gets thrown around.

Other comments:

I think Gradishar is worthy of getting in. I think he and Andre Tippett had similar careers (different styles of play though), but I need to look up some more data on that.

Randall Cunnigham? I know he was a different type of player at QB; we had not see that type of running threat. But his playoff games STUNK going 3-6. His '91 Eagles team and '98 Vikings team should have gone to the Super Bowl and they came up short. Fair or not, it falls on him. I have no idea what to think with him...I need someone to convince me one way or the other.

I disagree with the Bob Hayes comment BF, because Hayes showed that speed can be used to do damage in football, not just brute force. To make that transition from track star to do the damage he did in the NFL of the 60s and early 70s is amazing. The guy averagred 25 or 26 yards per catch twice, didn't he? I know he finished in the Top 10 in touchdowns six time (led 2x) and yards/games seven times (led 2x) and was 1st-team All-Pro twice. It's a plenty good enough resume to get in. But yes, Kramer being left out is awfully bizarre.

tony77
02-02-2009, 06:29 AM
I have yet to work on DBs, so I can not make comment on LeBeau yet.