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View Full Version : It takes more than running the ball and playing D to win in today's NFL


Halsey
02-14-2009, 09:33 PM
Many fans and media seem stuck with this old mindset that to win in the NFL a team needs to be able to run the ball and play defense, and act as if passing the ball is secondary. People with this mindset point to 'blue collar', rough, tough teams that win in December and January with tough defense and a running game that can grind it out. In today's NFL, that's no longer enough. Being able to pass the ball is more important than ever. The rules of the game have been tweaked to help the passing game. I was having a debate with a Rams fan who told me that new coach Steve Spagnolo was going with a philosophy of tough defense and Steven Jackson running the ball. That sounds good, but if the Rams want to win a Super Bowl, they will also need to balance their offense with an effective passing game. To back up my point, I want to point out the epitamy of 'blue collar', tough defense, grind it out teams: The Steelers. Look at the way their team is built. Yes, they can play defense and run the ball, but they also have a 1st round QB with a $100 million contract, they drafted Santonio Holmes in the first round, Limas Sweed in the second round, Hines Ward was signed to a large extension not long ago, Heath Miller was a first round pick and they throw a good bit to their RB's. I just wanted to point this out for people who think QB's are just there to 'manage a game' or 'not lose games' and that passing is secondary. That's a myth.

yourfavestoner
02-14-2009, 09:34 PM
Throw to score. Run to win.

MetSox17
02-14-2009, 09:41 PM
Throw to score.

Throwing = Scoring.

Scoring = Winning.

Throwing = Winning.

Gay Ork Wang
02-14-2009, 09:43 PM
Throwing = Scoring.

Scoring = Winning.

Throwing = Winning.
Rose = Red
Red = Color

Rose = Color?

TimD
02-14-2009, 10:01 PM
Rose = Red
Red = Color

Rose = Color?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2331/2336326492_f0b078ed80.jpg

Razzle Dazzle Rose

Halsey
02-14-2009, 10:03 PM
The Steelers were ranked 23rd in run offense this past season. The Cardinals were dead last. I'm not trying to say that running isn't important. Just that passing that ball is just as important. Some teams succeed with run first offenses, but there are also teams that succeed with pass first offenses.

Gay Ork Wang
02-14-2009, 10:06 PM
The Steelers were ranked 23rd in run offense this past season. The Cardinals were dead last. I'm not trying to say that running isn't important. Just that passing that ball is just as important. Some teams succeed with run first offenses, but there are also teams that succeed with pass first offenses.
wow, what an insight into football! Never actually realized that.

RaiderNation
02-14-2009, 10:09 PM
Last 2 superbowl winners- New York Giants and Pitsburgh Steelers(defensive and running teams)
Last 2 superbowl losers- New England Patriots and Arizona Cardinals(passing teams)

End of discussion

Gay Ork Wang
02-14-2009, 10:13 PM
i dont think anyone who is a real football fan really thinks that after TGoT and the Patriots.

TACKLE
02-14-2009, 10:16 PM
So your saying that you need a good QB who is a good passer to win games in the NFL? This is ground breaking stuff.

brat316
02-14-2009, 10:30 PM
So your saying that you need a good QB who is a good passer to win games in the NFL? This is ground breaking stuff.

And good 1st round WR, TE, and receiving Rbs.

brat316
02-14-2009, 10:32 PM
Your title actually should be "It Take more than Running the ball to win in Today NFL."

If you don't play defense good luck winning. Examples Denver Broncos, threw the ball quite a bit, and then they decided not to play defense end result almost made it to the playoffs.

BlindSite
02-14-2009, 10:58 PM
Forget all this pass vs run vs defense ********.

A team needs to be balanced. You don't always need to be the best run defense or pass defense, just GOOD ENOUGH and the same goes for the offense.

With the exception of the Steelers, there's hasn't been a real defensive powerhouse win for about 6 seasons

Eaglez.Fan
02-14-2009, 11:07 PM
Defense no doubt does in championships. It wasn't by fluke that the top 3 defenses in the NFL, all played in their respective championship games. And just because you look at where these guys were drafted doesn't mean Pittsburgh is a gun-slinging team. Holmes was a first rounder but was a huge underachiever this whole year. And really only did something in the SB, not saying it wasn't important but without Holmes they still would have made it there. Sweed was a non-factor.And if you say the Steelers couldn't run very well, they were more of a passing team that is also wrong. Big Ben was 14th in the league in yards, and 15th in TDs.

It WAS their defense.

Brothgar
02-15-2009, 12:09 AM
If they can't score you can't lose defense is the most important thing in football. Running and passing are both secondary. Running the ball effectively will beat passing the ball effectively because you control the clock. Passing isn't unimportant specially if you need that 2 minute drill.

OzTitan
02-15-2009, 12:20 AM
I think running the ball and playing good D needs to usually be coupled with good QB play to make it all the way. Sometimes a very average QB can win a ring with a great run game and D, but chances are sometime in the playoffs or the Superbowl, you just need your QB to go out there and take the W. I think the Steelers showed that this season.

So alone they're not usually enough, but running the ball and good D are still going to likely get you further.

gramage
02-15-2009, 12:41 AM
I don't know if "run the ball and play good defence" was ever the only way to win. I don't think those Montana/Young 49er teams were running teams.

Whether you pass to set up the run or run to set up the pass, you have to be able to take advantage of a team when they overload one way or the other. The 2000 ravens didn't make a lot of plays passing but they did make big plays.

Personally I think "pass the ball and rush the passer" is at least as good a philosophy, and steeler fans probably agree with me this year.

d34ng3l021
02-15-2009, 12:44 AM
Your topic making abilities should be revoked.

Xonraider
02-15-2009, 12:56 AM
uh you obviously need something to compliment your strength.

you can't be 1st in pass and dead last on run because they can just play pass ... and you can't be 1st running and last on passing because they will put 8 in the box.

yodabear
02-15-2009, 01:05 AM
This thread makes John Madden look football literate.

tjsunstein
02-15-2009, 01:55 AM
Your topic making abilities should be revoked.
QFT

This thread makes John Madden look football literate.

Quoted for Truth. Topic sucks. Really competes for the suckass-ness of another topic about Anquan Boldin specualtion.

GermanSaint
02-15-2009, 02:52 AM
balance, balance , balance !

see the saints... number 1 offense in a few categories , but no running game at all.... 9-7 and dead last in their division. They had no defense either.... i stay with the old school rule, until i see pass-only poor-defense team like the saints win that thing.

Halsey
02-15-2009, 11:05 AM
Last 2 superbowl winners- New York Giants and Pitsburgh Steelers(defensive and running teams)
Last 2 superbowl losers- New England Patriots and Arizona Cardinals(passing teams)

End of discussion

This past season the Steelers totaled 506passing attempts, 3,607 yards passing, 19 passing TD's, 460 rushing attempts 1,690 yards rushing, 16 rushing TD's. During the entire season, including the playoffs, the Steelers only had a 100 yard rusher 4 times.

The Giants also had more passing attempts, yards and TD's than rushing in 2007.

Yeah, you really ended the discussion. :D

But despite the irrefutable facts I posted, you'll probably just be stubborn and cling to the stereotype that passing is secondary in the NFL. And there will still be other posters acting as if nobody sticks to this stereotype despite posts like the one I quoted. No biggie, people don't like it when you notice things they weren't perceptive enough to.

MetSox17
02-15-2009, 11:07 AM
Rose = Red
Red = Color

Rose = Color?

I was being facetious.

Gay Ork Wang
02-15-2009, 11:10 AM
I was being facetious.
i was being facetious

Gay Ork Wang
02-15-2009, 11:12 AM
This past season the Steelers totaled 506passing attempts, 3,607 yards passing, 19 passing TD's, 460 rushing attempts 1,690 yards rushing, 16 rushing TD's. During the entire season, including the playoffs, the Steelers only had a 100 yard rusher 4 times.

The Giants also had more passing attempts, yards and TD's than rushing in 2007.

Yeah, you really ended the discussion. :D

But despite the irrefutable facts I posted, you'll probably just be stubborn and cling to the stereotype that passing is secondary in the NFL. And there will still be other posters acting as if nobody sticks to this stereotype despite posts like the one I quoted. No biggie, people don't like it when you notice things they weren't perceptive enough to.

Do u understand that Run First teams CAN pass? no one says passing is irrelevant. The Steelers are a run first team. The Giants are a run first team. What do u think do they rely on?

Xonraider
02-15-2009, 11:14 AM
This past season the Steelers totaled 506passing attempts, 3,607 yards passing, 19 passing TD's, 460 rushing attempts 1,690 yards rushing, 16 rushing TD's. During the entire season, including the playoffs, the Steelers only had a 100 yard rusher 4 times.

The Giants also had more passing attempts, yards and TD's than rushing in 2007.

That stat is so irrelevant. Most teams get more yardage, attempts and usually touchdowns through the air than through the ground, comparing both is like compare apples and oranges.

Halsey
02-15-2009, 11:15 AM
And if you say the Steelers couldn't run very well, they were more of a passing team that is also wrong.

It is? See the facts I posted above. Maybe it's just me, but when a team passes it more than runs it and has more passing TD's, I consider them a 'passing team' more than a 'running team'.

Gay Ork Wang
02-15-2009, 11:16 AM
It is? See the facts I posted above. Maybe it's just me, but when a team passes it more than runs it and has more passing TD's, I consider them a 'passing team' more than a 'running team'.
OMGZ STATS!!!!! Show me a ******* team that doesnt have more passing TDs than Rushing TDs...

MetSox17
02-15-2009, 11:18 AM
i was being facetious

Touche....

Halsey
02-15-2009, 11:22 AM
That stat is so irrelevant. Most teams get more yardage, attempts and usually touchdowns through the air than through the ground, comparing both is like compare apples and oranges.

If most teams are passing it more and scoring more through the air, that kind of backs up my point: It takes more than a good defense and run game to win in today's NFL. A lot of fans and media are still stuck in that old mindset.

Halsey
02-15-2009, 11:24 AM
OMGZ STATS!!!!! Show me a ******* team that doesnt have more passing TDs than Rushing TDs...

Ah yes: The original "It's only stats!!1!" argument. How creative. Gaining yards and scoring TD's actually matter in the games. But keep telling yourself it's only stats.

Gay Ork Wang
02-15-2009, 11:29 AM
yes, but that doesnt define a run first team.

scottyboy
02-15-2009, 11:33 AM
Ah yes: The original "It's only stats!!1!" argument. How creative. Gaining yards and scoring TD's actually matter in the games. But keep telling yourself it's only stats.

if you think the Giants won the Super Bowl and get there based on the passing game, you're nuts. Our running game and defense won it for us, and the D obviously won it for the Steelers this year, that D was dominant.

Just a quote from one Tom Brady for you: "Only 17 points? haha, ok Plaxico..."

Halsey
02-15-2009, 11:36 AM
The Steelers and Giants have invested huge amounts of money and high draft picks in their QB's and pass catchers. The Giants gave up multiple draft picks to move up ad get the QB they wanted in 2004. Whatever you want to label their offenses, it's undeniable they take passing the ball very seriously.

scottyboy
02-15-2009, 11:40 AM
The Steelers and Giants have invested huge amounts of money and high draft picks in their QB's and pass catchers. The Giants gave up multiple draft picks to move up ad get the QB they wanted in 2004. Whatever you want to label their offenses, it's undeniable they take passing the ball very seriously.

well no ****, no team doesn't take passing seriously. But for the most part, we're a running team.
even still, everyone knows it takes balance to win, this topic is kind of...obvious?

Halsey
02-15-2009, 11:42 AM
if you think the Giants won the Super Bowl and get there based on the passing game, you're nuts. Our running game and defense won it for us, and the D obviously won it for the Steelers this year, that D was dominant.

Just a quote from one Tom Brady for you: "Only 17 points? haha, ok Plaxico..."
You're trying to twist my argument. I never said anyone did ajnything based only on passing. I am stating that passing matters more than many people give it credit. You aare backing up my point by saying they won with running and defense. Both of the Giants TD's in the Super Bowl were passing TD's and they didn't even run for 100 yards as a team in the game. But, I'm sure you'll hold on to that misconception and tell me I'm wrong no matter how many facts I throw out.

Gay Ork Wang
02-15-2009, 11:43 AM
seriously? in an era people say that its a "Passing League" ur trying to tell us, passing is useful? nice!

btw the Patriots had a rushing TD in the Superbowl. Pats = Running team?

Xonraider
02-15-2009, 11:47 AM
If most teams are passing it more and scoring more through the air, that kind of backs up my point: It takes more than a good defense and run game to win in today's NFL. A lot of fans and media are still stuck in that old mindset.

Of course it takes more! You need a good passing game in order to compliment your running game. You won't get 4 or 5 yards every single play. Some teams are more consistent doing it, but not every drive in every game will you get 8 first downs rushing. You need to pass the ball to keep the defense on their heels and keep them from sticking to 8 in the box all the time.

I'm not a fan of showing stats, but since you love them I'll show you some.

Top 5 passing teams:
New Orleans Saints
Arizona Cardinals - P
Denver Broncos
Houston Texans
Indianapolis Colts - P

Top 5 rushing teams:
New York Giants - P
Atlanta Falcons - P
Carolina Panthers - P
Baltimore Ravens - P
Minnesota Vikings - P

the P means they made the playoffs.

iBoldin
02-15-2009, 11:53 AM
You aare backing up my point by saying they won with running and defense.

No, he's not backing up your point then. Your point is that it takes more then running the ball and playing defense. You just contradicted your entire "argument" by saying the Giants got to the Super Bowl with running and defense.

And it's are, not aare.

BuddyCHRIST
02-15-2009, 12:28 PM
This is kind of pointless, it takes more than any one thing. You have to be able to do everything consistently. But history has shown that being able to run the ball and stop teams is more effective long term and in the playoffs. It's like pitching in baseball, your defense tends to be more consistent than your offense in big game situations. Same thing with running the ball where conditions like wind and temperature don't affect things. It also takes alot of the nervousness out of a game by running it, throwing involved more thinking and deciding while running is more on instincts and physical play which lessens the chances of mistakes in big games. It's not a fact, its just what history has pointed too and teams who have been able to do these things have been more successful than those who can't.

With all that said, if there is anything thats more important on a football team its QB play, and thats doesnt necessarily having anything to do with throwing the ball for lots of yards.

The Unseen
02-15-2009, 01:08 PM
Throwing = Scoring.

Scoring = Winning.

Throwing = Winning.

But you have to prevent the other team from scoring, too, which is why teams run the ball. It runs the clock out, but probably more importantly, it is safer than passing.

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
02-15-2009, 11:54 PM
lol.

"teams have to be good at stuff to win."

is this really the statement being discussed? that a team needs to occasionally throw to win?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

god i hate the offseason.

Aww, we're not winning anything for a while then.

21ST
02-16-2009, 12:12 AM
Actually the key to winning is scoring more points than the other team

CashmoneyDrew
02-16-2009, 12:16 AM
Actually the key to winning is scoring more points than the other team

What will they think of next!

Mr. Stiller
02-16-2009, 07:53 PM
Last 2 superbowl winners- New York Giants and Pitsburgh Steelers(defensive and running teams)
Last 2 superbowl losers- New England Patriots and Arizona Cardinals(passing teams)

End of discussion

If you watched any games this season... the Steelers were not a Running team.

The Unseen
02-16-2009, 08:39 PM
lol.

"teams have to be good at stuff to win."

is this really the statement being discussed? that a team needs to occasionally throw to win?

:eek: :eek: :eek:

god i hate the offseason.

What, you don't like metafootball?

Halsey
02-16-2009, 10:15 PM
It's funny to me that many fans seem ok with a mediocre QB starting for their team. They seem to think the key to the NFL is all building a great team around a QB and then the QB just needs to avoid mistakes. That's wrong. Having a quality starting QB who can makes bad teams into good teams and good teams into great teams. What's really puzzling is San Francisco fans who are ok with Shaun Hill as the starter. Those fans are either young or have short memories. The only times the 49ers have been relevant was when they had great QB's. Those same fans will tell you that the 49ers just need a QB who 'won't lose games' and they can win with defense and handing the ball to Gore...

Shane P. Hallam
02-16-2009, 10:30 PM
If you watched any games this season... the Steelers were not a Running team.

In the playoffs we kicked it off running a good amount.

Paranoidmoonduck
02-16-2009, 10:33 PM
So you're all telling me that I can't sum up all of football strategy into one universal overarching sentence?