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griff2213
03-05-2009, 08:51 PM
I don't understand what makes him and elite "talent". What made him so elite earlier in the year that people were raving about him. Though he has dropped some now due to character concerns, etc., he is still considered to have elite talent for the position by many. But he is not an amazing athlete (not as good as Oher or Smith for sure), he has average agility, and is not that great in pass protection compared to the other top tackles. These are three traits that seem required for you to be an elite talent at tackle. Joe Thomas possessed these. D Ferguson same. Etc. Whats the deal?

twista6002
03-05-2009, 08:53 PM
He's not bad but I never understood what the hype was about too. I see him get pushed back and get caught on his heels too much in pass pro. Not left tackle material. I see him as being a good right tackle or guard.

jnew76
03-05-2009, 09:19 PM
For a run first team without a ZBS, like the Steelers/Bills/Giants etc. he is an ideal fit. Easily the most dominant run blocking OT in the draft who also has the best initial hand punch out of the top prospects. Absolutely neutralized some great DE prospects in the SEC throughout his career. Not a fit in all schemes, but has the potential to dominate in some.

superman
03-05-2009, 09:31 PM
i have a feeling he's going to run a 5.5 and put up only 20 reps and drop like a rock

RaiderNation
03-05-2009, 10:02 PM
He is the perfect fit for us in Oakland. We need a big RT that can get great push and still pass block.

But it looks like Khalif Barnes is going to sign with us

ElectricEye
03-05-2009, 10:10 PM
He's an absolutely dominating blocker and he's athletic(contrary to what you've heard) as hell for his size. I don't know where you heard he wasn't good in pass protection because he honestly is. Really defines the phrase "light on his feet". He was a serious impact type player for Bama this year and is really being undersold at this point. If not for the character concerns and the emergence of Jason Smith as a A+ prospect, Smith would still be in the running to go within the first two picks. He's just screwing it all up acting like he already has his check.

SolMan
03-05-2009, 10:27 PM
For a run first team without a ZBS, like the Steelers/Bills/Giants etc. he is an ideal fit. Easily the most dominant run blocking OT in the draft who also has the best initial hand punch out of the top prospects. Absolutely neutralized some great DE prospects in the SEC throughout his career. Not a fit in all schemes, but has the potential to dominate in some.

Niners might be looking for him too, shifting from Martz to run first offense.

Sniper
03-05-2009, 10:29 PM
84-MwAbj7uw

Big guy can move...

MenOfTroy
03-06-2009, 01:04 AM
He only allowed 1 sack all year playing in the SEC, if I'm not mistaken.

Don't have to say much more.

Paranoidmoonduck
03-06-2009, 01:42 AM
He's an absolutely dominating blocker and he's athletic(contrary to what you've heard) as hell for his size. I don't know where you heard he wasn't good in pass protection because he honestly is. Really defines the phrase "light on his feet". He was a serious impact type player for Bama this year and is really being undersold at this point. If not for the character concerns and the emergence of Jason Smith as a A+ prospect, Smith would still be in the running to go within the first two picks. He's just screwing it all up acting like he already has his check.

This, basically.

Honestly, I don't even buy J. Smith or Monroe as having more potential than Andre Smith. He's very talented. But with some weight concerns, attitude concerns, intelligence concerns, etc. he's going to be dropping.

There was a stint during the 2008 college season when I thought Andre Smith was the best player in the country.

eaglesalltheway
03-06-2009, 06:30 AM
This, basically.

Honestly, I don't even buy J. Smith or Monroe as having more potential than Andre Smith. He's very talented. But with some weight concerns, attitude concerns, intelligence concerns, etc. he's going to be dropping.

There was a stint during the 2008 college season when I thought Andre Smith was the best player in the country.

Agreed, to what you agree on and what you said, lol.

eaglesalltheway
03-06-2009, 06:31 AM
i have a feeling he's going to run a 5.5 and put up only 20 reps and drop like a rock

I hope so, that way the Eagles can snatch him and we'll have an absolutely nasty LT to complete our OL...

619
03-06-2009, 07:50 AM
I hope so, that way the Eagles can snatch him and we'll have an absolutely nasty LT to complete our OL...

That would just not be fair. Strictly from a talent perspective he's right up there or was with anyone in the country at any point in the season. Of course, he's since hurt his stock severely since his bowl game, but I still believe he falls no further than to Washington.

roscoesdad27
03-06-2009, 08:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PgdAQkq4gI

very nimble and agile for a man his size...best runblocking o.t. that i've ever seen in college...extremely long arms, which was my ONLY question coming into the combine...character concerns are being blown out of proportion...best left tackle prospect in the draft, better than jake long or joe thomas imho.

ElectricEye
03-06-2009, 08:28 AM
This, basically.

Honestly, I don't even buy J. Smith or Monroe as having more potential than Andre Smith. He's very talented. But with some weight concerns, attitude concerns, intelligence concerns, etc. he's going to be dropping.

There was a stint during the 2008 college season when I thought Andre Smith was the best player in the country.

In agreement there as well. He really did look like the most important player in the country for awhile. You don't see a tackle dominate and make as much of an impact as Smith did very often.

Sniper
03-06-2009, 08:30 AM
best runblocking o.t. that i've ever seen in college

http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/football/bob_blog/jakelong.jpg

Mr. Hero
03-06-2009, 10:37 AM
Jake Long had neither incredible athleticism nor was he a great pass blocker. That said Andre smith has much quicker feet and overall athleticism than Long and is arguably a better pass blocker, add that to what a monster he is in the running game and how he wears out opponents and you start to get a picture for just how supremely talented this kid is. If he had his head on straight he'd still be a top 5 pick and still be battling Jason Smith for the number 1 OT ranking.

Flyboy
03-06-2009, 10:43 AM
Hmmm... if he falls, he'd be a very tempting option at #14...

Sniper
03-06-2009, 10:45 AM
Jake Long had neither incredible athleticism nor was he a great pass blocker.

If two sacks allowed in four years as a starter isn't a great pass blocker, I don't know what is.

...and I was just commenting on the run blocking.

Kase1
03-06-2009, 10:58 AM
If he can somehow make it to #29 Id LOVE him on the G-Men..... OT in the 1st is the way 2 go

BigBanger
03-06-2009, 11:33 AM
http://weblogs.newsday.com/sports/football/bob_blog/jakelong.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/football/2008/draft/players/images/162x262/jeff-otah.jpg

fear the elf
03-06-2009, 11:49 AM
best left tackle prospect in the draft, better than jake long or joe thomas imho.

your opinion would be wrong

Mr. Hero
03-06-2009, 11:56 AM
If two sacks allowed in four years as a starter isn't a great pass blocker, I don't know what is.

...and I was just commenting on the run blocking.

I was responding to the OP who said that being an elite pass blocker and premier athlete was a requirement to being an elite OT talent. Long's a very good technician with brutal strength, but certainly wasn't a premier athlete and his pass blocking was certainly questioned when it came to blocking premier NFL ends who would have the speed to give him fits and also know how to use that speed, unlike most college ends.

roscoesdad27
03-06-2009, 12:46 PM
your opinion would be wrong

smith has been a dominate left tackle for bama and has been starting since his first game of his freshman season...anybody that watched bama this year could tell you how physical he was on that left side, he dominated games....best run blocker ive seen at o.t. in college...my only question coming into the combine was his arm length his arms were #2 behind only loadholt...longer than jason smith's, monroes or ohers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=md-EZ6TOWyw

griff2213
03-06-2009, 12:55 PM
How would you rank the top OTs just in terms of sheer athleticism?

Menardo75
03-06-2009, 12:55 PM
He is as dominate a run blocker as anyone who has come out in some time. He also has good footwork and could play any position on the line.

Babylon
03-06-2009, 01:15 PM
How would you rank the top OTs just in terms of sheer athleticism?


Jason Smith
Andre Smith
Eben Britton
Eugene Monroe
Michael Oher
William Beatty

Paranoidmoonduck
03-06-2009, 04:16 PM
Jason Smith
Andre Smith
Eben Britton
Eugene Monroe
Michael Oher
William Beatty

William Beatty as the 6th most athletic offensive tackle? Huh?

CC.SD
03-06-2009, 06:29 PM
Even after all this crap I'll be very surprised if he slips out of the top 10. That's not stopping me from thinking about McNeill/Smith as bookend tackles though.

PossibleCabbage
03-06-2009, 09:31 PM
He only allowed 1 sack all year playing in the SEC, if I'm not mistaken.

Don't have to say much more.

Well, it's not as though Alabama has been a pass-happy team during Smith's tenure as a starter. When you don't pass the ball much, your QB doesn't get sacked much, no matter who you have at Tackle. So that doesn't say as much as you think it does. By my count, in 2008 Alabama had the 97th ranked passing offense last year, attempting only 334 passes (completing only 195). So being the anchor protecting the blindside for that offense isn't a huge resume chip.

Burger
03-06-2009, 10:04 PM
Andre Smith film has impressed me more than Jason Smith film. Andre plows people on the run and stonewalls people on the pass.

ElectricEye
03-07-2009, 10:58 PM
Well, it's not as though Alabama has been a pass-happy team during Smith's tenure as a starter. When you don't pass the ball much, your QB doesn't get sacked much, no matter who you have at Tackle. So that doesn't say as much as you think it does. By my count, in 2008 Alabama had the 97th ranked passing offense last year, attempting only 334 passes (completing only 195). So being the anchor protecting the blindside for that offense isn't a huge resume chip.

Weak, weak argument. Baylor threw a ton less than that at 290 attempts. Ole Miss threw a comparable amount too with only seven more attempts. Only one that has him beat by a large margin in Monroe. Smith's resume as a pass blocker is plenty strong.

Mr. Stiller
03-07-2009, 11:27 PM
For a run first team without a ZBS, like the Steelers/Bills/Giants etc. he is an ideal fit. Easily the most dominant run blocking OT in the draft who also has the best initial hand punch out of the top prospects. Absolutely neutralized some great DE prospects in the SEC throughout his career. Not a fit in all schemes, but has the potential to dominate in some.

Steelers are a pass first team and we do employ a variation of the ZBS.

JT Jag
03-07-2009, 11:27 PM
Andre Smith is one of the most dominant run-blocking linemen at any position to come out in the last decade. He's also a very capable pass-blocking lineman with a lot of upside there still. He has the lightest feet that a guy pushing 330 lbs at any given time could have.

Andre Smith comes in on day one, starts, and run blocks at an all-pro level at tackle. Give him two years and he'll be pass-blocking at a pro-bowl level as well.

Shane P. Hallam
03-07-2009, 11:30 PM
Steelers are a pass first team and we do employ a variation of the ZBS.

Our O-line is not really close to ZBS at all, and we were still a run first team every year except last year.

Mr. Stiller
03-07-2009, 11:43 PM
Our O-line is not really close to ZBS at all, and we were still a run first team every year except last year.

Do you suppose that after winning with a more pass-oriented attack that we're going to jump back to Cowher's Philosophy?

And on top of that, It's not a Denver style ZBS if thats all you think of, but a majority of the time they utilize Zone Schemes.

Arians is a major ZBS guy.

Staubach12
03-07-2009, 11:54 PM
I had him dropped for a while but his play speaks for itself. When it came down to it, Smith is stout, athletic, quick, and tracks his man well. I love him. Not as good as Jason Smith and maybe Monroe, but an awesome talent.

roscoesdad27
03-08-2009, 08:17 AM
Andre Smith is one of the most dominant run-blocking linemen at any position to come out in the last decade. He's also a very capable pass-blocking lineman with a lot of upside there still. He has the lightest feet that a guy pushing 330 lbs at any given time could have.

Andre Smith comes in on day one, starts, and run blocks at an all-pro level at tackle. Give him two years and he'll be pass-blocking at a pro-bowl level as well.

give him 1 year and he'll be pass blocking like a probowler.

much more dynamic than jason smith or monroe...jason is a tremendous pass blocker but he doesnt use leverage and leg drive when run blocking...below average run blocker...same with monroe except monroe is a bit better at run blocking than jason.

scale 1-5

andre
run blocking 5 pass blocking 4

jason
pass blocking 4 run blocking 2

eugene
pass blocking 4 run blocking 3

oher
run blocking 4 pass blocking 3

there are other factors involved i know but thats the just of it for me

1) a. smith
2) e. monroe
3) m. oher
4) j. smith

jason smith has more value than oher because he's a legit left tackle while oher is more of a right tackle that could develope into a left tackle.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
03-08-2009, 10:30 AM
Andre Smith's detractors should also consider how well he moves for a man who played at a weight I suspect was very close to 350 pounds last season!! His short area burst, agility and power are ridiculous.

What really jumps out from film on Smith is his ability to make his man disappear once he gets his hands on them.

VEry smooth and coordinated athlete for an OLineman, aggressive and enjoys physically punishing his man.

I hope he's there at #13 for the SKins, but I feel outside of a double homicide charge the night before the draft, Andre will still go in the top 10.

If he gets in a system where he focuses on improving his conditioning and weight concerns, Andre is one of those guys who you have to think has UNLIMITED potential.

He'll be as good as he wants to be at the next level, point blank.

Larry
03-08-2009, 05:19 PM
No way he falls past the Niners imo. Singletary desperately wants a run mauler at Right tackle next to Chilo Rachel.

TACKLE
03-08-2009, 05:24 PM
No way he falls past the Niners imo. Singletary desperately wants a run mauler at Right tackle next to Chilo Rachel.

But Singletary also desperately doesn't want lazy players who put themselves before the team.


Andre Smith's detractors should also consider how well he moves for a man who played at a weight I suspect was very close to 350 pounds last season!! His short area burst, agility and power are ridiculous.

It bothers me how people keep saying he "moves well for a man his size". Well he better move well if he wants to play OT at the next level. It's not a matter of how well he moves for a 335 pounder, it matters if he quick enough to block DeMarcus Ware, Osi, James Harrison or Freeney. If he's not, than he's not going to be an effective LT.

Also a lot of people like you are saying he has "great short area burst". If you watch Bama, Andre is almost always that last guy off the ball.

PossibleCabbage
03-08-2009, 05:57 PM
Weak, weak argument. Baylor threw a ton less than that at 290 attempts. Ole Miss threw a comparable amount too with only seven more attempts. Only one that has him beat by a large margin in Monroe. Smith's resume as a pass blocker is plenty strong.

I wasn't saying "Smith's no good because his team didn't pass enough". I'm saying "Didn't allow a sack in the SEC, nuff said" isn't actually enough to say because a team near the bottom of the entire NCAA in terms of passing attempts isn't going to be giving up more sacks anyway. So more needs to be said, for example "film, drills, and interviews" but that was really all that needed to be said anyway.

"Hasn't given up sacks" is a much less important aspect of a LT than "technique and physical ability" since "hasn't given up sacks" is a function of the entire offense, as well as the entire opposing defense. Technique, mental toughness, and physical ability are exclusively a function of the player in question.

TACKLE
03-08-2009, 06:07 PM
He gave up two sacks against SEC opponents.


vexQ4Cbl8_s

3:30-3:50
AVOGpC_JRHI

keylime_5
03-08-2009, 06:14 PM
He is so much better of a run blocker than any left tackle, he's in the Pace/Jones/Ogden league when it comes to moving people in the run game IMO. While he's not as nimble as those elite left tackles, he can move pretty well for a 6-4/330 manbearpig. He has the most potential of any tackle in the draft for sure and is so talented.

I think the combine thing was sort of overblown at first, but now it has died down a bit. I think He is certainly a top 8 pick, probably a top 6 pick. The Rams or Bengals are the two most likely destinations for him, maybe Jacksonville.

Chio151
03-08-2009, 06:26 PM
Jason Smith
Andre Smith
Eben Britton
Eugene Monroe
Michael Oher
William Beatty

Britton is clearly the worst athlete on that list. He is a waist bender, sorta slow. Bleh.

1. Jason Smith
2. Andre Smith
3. Eugene Monroe
4. William Beatty
5. Michael Oher
.
.
6. Eben Britton

MooshooGawd
03-08-2009, 06:37 PM
The draft is still a long way off. NFL Network had a really good interview with Andre this weekend. It's available on the NFL website under videos. In it, they show him working out and his trainer sitting there shouting things like 'they say you're not working out', 'they say you're a second rounder now'.

I think once some more time goes by and after his workout, Andre Smith's stock will be just as high as it ever was. He's just gotta be sure not to screw up and raise any more red flags. But for a guy his size, he's so quick.

ElectricEye
03-08-2009, 09:24 PM
I wasn't saying "Smith's no good because his team didn't pass enough". I'm saying "Didn't allow a sack in the SEC, nuff said" isn't actually enough to say because a team near the bottom of the entire NCAA in terms of passing attempts isn't going to be giving up more sacks anyway. So more needs to be said, for example "film, drills, and interviews" but that was really all that needed to be said anyway.

"Hasn't given up sacks" is a much less important aspect of a LT than "technique and physical ability" since "hasn't given up sacks" is a function of the entire offense, as well as the entire opposing defense. Technique, mental toughness, and physical ability are exclusively a function of the player in question.

If you're going to use small sample size to be critical you might as well look at the statistics to back that up though. You could say that about any number of guys that didn't play at Texas Tech.

If you were to make an argument about his technique, that would be more legit but still not very informed. There's nothing wrong from a technical aspect about Smith's physical skill or technique as a pass blocker. He could stand to be a bit taller and have longer arms, but besides that he's done nothing but dominate as a left tackle and it stands to reason that there's not much to get in the way of that at the next level that can be predicted by any present indicators.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
03-08-2009, 09:44 PM
TACKLE, open an account on youtube and take another look at Andre Smith play football.

To say he consistently is the last one off the line of scrimmage isn't true, what's more important is how well he moves AFTER the snap. No man that big should be able to roll and slide as well as Smith does.

Also, notice how well he blocks safeties and LBs who creep the line of scrimmage on a blitz.

If Andre can keep his pro weight under 335, off the snap playing in the box he moves like a 265 pound TE, IMO.

I doubt we've seen what Andre looks like playing in the 330s.

ElectricEye
03-08-2009, 09:51 PM
Andre moves as well as a guy who moves well for 300 pounds. He's light on his feet and isn't going to get beat to the corner. He's not a Jeff Otah type, who moved well despite being massive but not as well as a premier athlete at left tackle did. Smith falls more into the latter category.

PossibleCabbage
03-08-2009, 10:37 PM
If you're going to use small sample size to be critical you might as well look at the statistics to back that up though. You could say that about any number of guys that didn't play at Texas Tech.

If you were to make an argument about his technique, that would be more legit but still not very informed. There's nothing wrong from a technical aspect about Smith's physical skill or technique as a pass blocker. He could stand to be a bit taller and have longer arms, but besides that he's done nothing but dominate as a left tackle and it stands to reason that there's not much to get in the way of that at the next level that can be predicted by any present indicators.

You're not understanding what I'm actually saying:

I'm responding to:
He only allowed 1 sack all year playing in the SEC, if I'm not mistaken.

Don't have to say much more.

And what I'm actually saying is Yes you do. There is a comparatively small sample size for him in the passing game to be able to conclude that he is a lights out pass blocker. Now he might be a lights out pass blocker, and if so that will show up on film, but you do actually need to say more about the guy than how many sacks he gave up.

I don't actually have much of an opinion on A. Smith compared to the other LTs near the top of the board, haven't watched enough tape on them to really congeal an opinion. All I'm saying is that you really do need to watch some tape on the guy, statistics aren't enough since there is reason to believe that that particular statistic may be misleading (particularly since it's wrong (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1255104), unless I'm misinterpreting what "Allowed only one sack in 2008" means).

All I'm really saying is "if you want to tout the guy, tell me something about his game, don't just tell me how many sacks he gave up."

Matthew Jones
03-08-2009, 10:49 PM
I don't understand what makes him and elite "talent". What made him so elite earlier in the year that people were raving about him. Though he has dropped some now due to character concerns, etc., he is still considered to have elite talent for the position by many. But he is not an amazing athlete (not as good as Oher or Smith for sure), he has average agility, and is not that great in pass protection compared to the other top tackles. These are three traits that seem required for you to be an elite talent at tackle. Joe Thomas possessed these. D Ferguson same. Etc. Whats the deal?

He only allowed one sack in college last year en route to the Outland award. He's very athletic for his size and even caught a TD (find it on Youtube.) He has absolutely ridiculous functional strength and can maul anyone he gets his hands on. Being a good run blocker doesn't mean you can't pass block.

ElectricEye
03-08-2009, 10:56 PM
I don't actually have much of an opinion on A. Smith compared to the other LTs near the top of the board, haven't watched enough tape on them to really congeal an opinion. All I'm saying is that you really do need to watch some tape on the guy, statistics aren't enough since there is reason to believe that that particular statistic may be misleading (particularly since it's wrong (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1255104), unless I'm misinterpreting what "Allowed only one sack in 2008" means).

All I'm really saying is "if you want to tout the guy, tell me something about his game, don't just tell me how many sacks he gave up."

Tell me how many sacks he gave up. Not by itself, but I don't think that guy was being serious with his "don't need to say anymore". That's basically just being critical of the language he's using and picking at obvious hyperbole.

As far as the stat, I actually kinda like it. I'm glad people are keeping track of it better these days. That's a direct indicator of how good he is. There's variables in that stat for sure, but it's still damned useful.

Shere Khan
08-26-2009, 09:15 PM
It sure would be nice if the Bengals actually signed him already....sheesh.

Here we go again *facepalm*