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bored of education
03-06-2009, 11:06 AM
is a concept I cannot grasp. No team just trades down. Teams actually trade up and try to find the suitor and placement to trade up for.

What are your thoughts on trading up v. trading down.

Trading down is a luxury that occurs only if a team is willing to trade up FIRST.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-06-2009, 11:09 AM
Teams wanting to trade down just let teams know they are shopping the pick, the same way teams let other teams know they are shopping a player. Obviously a team needs to be interested in the pick/player being shopped and then they will initiate trade talks.

That would be my guess to how it typically works.

bored of education
03-06-2009, 11:10 AM
Of course, but a team who is trading down doesn't 'say hey Eagle I want to trade down with you, you want my pick'

I KNOW IT ALL
03-06-2009, 11:11 AM
Of course, but a team who is trading down doesn't 'say hey Eagle I want to trade down with you, you want my pick'

They might float the idea to certain teams they think are interested.

twista6002
03-06-2009, 11:32 AM
If there's not a player worth taking where you are, trade down, or don't have the money for one. You can stockpile draft picks for later or in some cases get a high pick the next season. I'd rather trade down than up.

bored of education
03-06-2009, 11:44 AM
If there's not a player worth taking where you are, trade down, or don't have the money for one. You can stockpile draft picks for later or in some cases get a high pick the next season. I'd rather trade down than up.

But trading down is harder to find a suitor than trading down. if everyone could trade down they would, but cant.

BuddyCHRIST
03-06-2009, 12:15 PM
But trading down is harder to find a suitor than trading down. if everyone could trade down they would, but cant.

Which is why it doesn't happen much, especially in the top picks. I don't understand what your saying/asking in this topic.

BeerBaron
03-06-2009, 12:20 PM
Try and tell the Saints who, this year, have a whopping 3 picks in the entire draft that they can't try to trade down......

A lot depends on your situation as well. If your a team with only a few major needs, maybe you package some of your picks together and trade up to insure that you get a player who fills one of those needs.

If your a team without any major glaring needs and are just in need of some depth, you should try trading down to pick up some extra picks to fill out your roster with more quality depth.

It works both ways.

bored of education
03-06-2009, 12:20 PM
Which is why it doesn't happen much, especially in the top picks. I don't understand what your saying/asking in this topic.

Well in every mock in the mock forum people are requestingtrade downs as if they can happen just as easy as making it happen ina mock. but i dont think people understand the logic and process behind it.

Iamcanadian
03-06-2009, 02:27 PM
I think there are a # of factors that play into trades.

1) How good is the draft year? If the talent is extremely thin and top ended, we are better off trading up and paying the price for at least a shot at obtaining a decent player. This is when you see teams holding 2 first rounders trade up into the top 10 or even the top 5 by offering both of them. See New Orleans trading up for Sullivan and the Jets trading up for Dewayne Robertson

2) Will there be a solid player there when I draft who fits our scheme and is a need? Can cause a team to trade down a little if they can find a trading partner.

3) We are this close to maybe making a serious run, how do I add the piece that can cinch it. Team may trade up at a serious cost to obtain that one more piece.

4) There is a franchise QB sitting there in the top 5 who is likely to go #1 overall. The team holding the pick doesn't want him for whatever reason. We do and are prepared to pay the asking price. Think Eli trade.

5) We are loaded for a serious playoff run and really don't like our chances of finding a solid player who fills a need when it is our pick. Will be trying to trade the pick for a pick(s) in next year's draft.

6) We are in a total rebuilding mode and are looking for extra picks provided that we still get an impact player where we trade down to. Willing to trade down a FEW spots as long as they still get an impact player.

7) We love prospect a but the team drafting before us has a serious need at the same position so we would like to trade up a couple of spots so we draft ahead of them. A very common occurrence on draft day.

8) We love a prospect but feel where we are picking, he just isn't worth the value. Willing to trade down to a place where the guy they want badly has real value.
9) Next year's draft is loaded with top end talent, this year isn't. Who can I get to trade this year's pick to for a pick(s) next year.

There are probably more reasons for trades but these are the most common. Teams desiring a trade in either direction will likely inform the other teams of their willingness to trade and try to gage who is interested. They will also gage the asking price or what it will take to get trade talks started. Once you get 2 teams interested in a trade then the bargaining starts to see if a trade is possible.
The better GM's like to trade on draft day when the pressure because of time restraints, puts the weaker GM at a disadvantage.
People say trading up into the top 5 has become almost impossible but I did a little research and found that teams are always willing to give up picks to trade up into the top 5 if a true franchise QB is available. They won't trade up and give up picks for any other position player. This has pretty well always been the case over the last 20 or so years. I don't think money comes into play as much as people think. At least I can find no significant changes from decade to decade when it comes to trading up or down in the top 5. Believe me if Peyton were available in this year's draft, the Lions would be getting calls feeling out a trade.
I've probably missed some but these are the ones I can think of now.

TACKLE
03-06-2009, 03:06 PM
I know what you mean boe. Everyone talks about trading down but that concept doesn't really exist. If you're a team that doesn't think its going to get good value or wants more picks, you can't just trade down. You're just a more likely suitor for a team that wants to trade up because you'll be less demanding in terms of compensation because of desire to move out of that spot.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-06-2009, 03:08 PM
Well in every mock in the mock forum people are requestingtrade downs as if they can happen just as easy as making it happen ina mock. but i dont think people understand the logic and process behind it.

Forum mocks are complete garbage. Might as well do a fantasy draft in Madden.

Borat
03-06-2009, 03:28 PM
Sounds pretty mutual.

BuddyCHRIST
03-06-2009, 06:09 PM
Well in every mock in the mock forum people are requestingtrade downs as if they can happen just as easy as making it happen ina mock. but i dont think people understand the logic and process behind it.

Well yea, but I think anyone who knows what they are talking about knows how hard it is to trade down especially with equal value. Especially in the top picks unless someone really wants a QB or something, not only has building through the draft become the way to go so teams don't want to give up those picks. But also the money paid to top guys is too high to trade up. It rarely happens within the top 10 picks, and most people know that.

Sveen
03-06-2009, 07:10 PM
Try and tell the Saints who, this year, have a whopping 3 picks in the entire draft that they can't try to trade down......
We actually have four picks ;) In addition to our 1st, 4th and 7th we have the Jets' 4th rounder.

Staubach12
03-07-2009, 02:01 PM
If I'm picking 15 and I want Player A, who is predicted to go around 30, why not trade down to 20 or 25 for more picks?

AntoinCD
03-07-2009, 02:17 PM
I think it all depends on what teams are below you, the players available and general depth. For example, last year after Dorsey and Ellis the DT class was relatively weak. It was obvious that both the Saints and Bengals could have taken Ellis if he had fallen. Also obvious was the fact that the Patriots are generally a team willing to trade down when possible. In this case the Patriots had leverage on the Saints to trade down and still get a good deal. However in the Saints case this year unless someone like Sanchez, Andre Smith etc is available then it will be tougher for them to trade down and get a fair price.

All teams could trade down in the draft, however it would be plain stupid. The only reason to trade down is because you get a deal which is better off for your franchise than taking a player at that point. For instance, if the 49ers offered the Browns #10, and their 2nd to move to #5 so they could take Raji then it would be smart of Cleveland to take the deal as they don't have many picks. However, if the Browns were actively shopping #5 to get extra picks, unless a team really falls in love with a prospect then it is unlikely they would get a similar or better deal as they have automatically lost leverage unless there are 2 teams willing to trade with them.

bored of education
03-07-2009, 02:59 PM
If I'm picking 15 and I want Player A, who is predicted to go around 30, why not trade down to 20 or 25 for more picks?

Because you can't just snap your fingers and trade down. You have to find a team that thinks a player on their big board and is a sure shot of being their to trade up with. Also they must feel they are willing to give up 1-2 picks to move up 3-8 spots.


It just doesn't happen for a team that wants to trade down.

Xonraider
03-07-2009, 03:14 PM
I don't understand this thread. Its quite simple bro.
Team A wants player in the top 10 but picks 16th
Team B doesnt want any player in the top 10
Team A calls team B and they work out a deal

its not rocket science

CJSchneider
03-07-2009, 03:38 PM
I grasp what you are saying boe, but I think you are skipping over how teams prepare for the draft. Don't forget that teams have projections for what every other team is looking at at every other pick.
Let me set up a situation for you.

Team 1 knows if Team 2 could use a CB (for example).

Team 1 is set at CB's and at pick 15 they are really looking at a ILB who based on their projections assume will be there at pick 25.

Team 2 has pick 22

Team 1 calls Team 2 and offers a trade

Keep in mind while this is happening Teams 3 - 32 are looking and adjusting their projections accordingly and perhaps, in seeing what could unfold, are making phone calls to trade up or down themselves.

bored of education
03-07-2009, 03:42 PM
I get al lthat. But a team sitting at ppick 13 thiks hey lets jsut get more picks to get them can't really happen unless a team is calling them. Also thye must feel they can trade down get more picks and still address needs. A team can't go into a draft looking to trade down just to trade down

CJSchneider
03-07-2009, 04:24 PM
I get al lthat. But a team sitting at ppick 13 thiks hey lets jsut get more picks to get them can't really happen unless a team is calling them. Also thye must feel they can trade down get more picks and still address needs. A team can't go into a draft looking to trade down just to trade down


No, you think the phone only works in one direction. Teams who know they would like to trade down make the first call all the time.

Well why else would you trade down?

THav916
03-07-2009, 04:43 PM
I'll agree that people too often want to trade down in mock drafts, but I'll disagree that it's only teams wanting to trade up and if a team is lucky enough to get a call from one of these teams, they can trade down. It goes both ways. If a team wants to trade down they'll call around. If a team wants to trade up they'll call around. If trading down was that great you'd see a team giving up the 35th pick for the 65th pick and a 5th rounder. But the team moving down wouldn't want to do that. They want fair value. I think it's more common to think of a team 'trading up' because if they want somebody they might be more apt to overpay, in which the team trading down is that lucky participant. But I definitely think trading down exists and not even sure how someone could think it doesn't.

Menardo75
03-07-2009, 06:24 PM
If the value of the players on the board don't match up with your team needs trading down is a great idea. Finding someone to do it with and the spot you want is the tricky part.

Halsey
03-07-2009, 06:28 PM
Every team wants to trade down for better value. Any pick is for sale for the right price, but like any informed draftnick knows: It takes 2 to tango.

CJSchneider
03-07-2009, 06:29 PM
Also, understand, and I am going to have to search for the article I read to show it off, but here, when we run a mock draft, our trades regarding draft picks use the trade value chart. Many pro-teams use other charts then the one we have here as the 3000 points for the #1 spot is a killer.

PossibleCabbage
03-08-2009, 05:08 PM
Many pro-teams use other charts then the one we have here as the 3000 points for the #1 spot is a killer.

How often do you see a team trading up to the #1 overall spot? How often do you see a team trading up into the top 5? The last time I can remember it happening, the Saints traded their entire draft to get up to #5 for Ricky Williams.

I think if there's a problem with our draft charts, it's not at the very top since teams very, very rarely trade up into the top #5 in part because it's so very expensive.

Really, the problem with the draft chart is that in reality the value of a pick varies a lot year to year. How many teams would trade their entire draft to grab Manning in 1998? A whole lot of them. How many teams would trade even an additional 1st day pick to grab Alex Smith at the top of the 2005 draft? Virtually none of them.

Iamcanadian
03-09-2009, 04:28 AM
Complain all you want about the draft chart but I have rarely seen a trade that didn't come close to following it. I have yet to see a team that has a different chart from the rest. IMO, it is still the foundation for every trade made in the NFL. Is it absolutely fixed in stone, no, circumstances and desires can make teams vary a little but it is never far off the mark except maybe the Williams trade which in the end cost the HC his job.

IrishX (aka bornbear)
03-09-2009, 10:02 AM
I think I get what the OP is saying. When people make their mock drafts they shouldn't act like trades are gonna happen, they should mock it just the way it is now.

Flyboy
03-09-2009, 01:33 PM
I gotta agree with boa here. I'm tired of Saints fans claim that we should trade down in the first round.

Someone would have to be willing to trade UP first for that to even be plausible.

bored of education
04-09-2010, 10:33 AM
Ok, so I had to re-up this thread. After reading it again I don't know if I was clear with what I was trying to accomplish here.

Everyone would ideally like to pick up extra draft picks, and the best way to do that is trading down. Would you rather have the 10th pick and you typical 1 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 4th or the 18th pick 1 2nd, 2 3rds, 1 4th and an extra pick in the 2-3rd next year? Of course you would rather have more picks.

So, the miscommunication that was presented earlier by me has become more clear on my own end. The premium placed on draft picks between 30-100 is greater than ever and even more so in a draft that is so deep this year. If a team wants to acquire more picks via trding down they have to come to two very important conclusions:

1. At this current pick, do we have someone on our value board that is worth picking at this time

2. If not, is their someone that a team is willing to trade up for.

If 2 exists, maybe that teams phone is ringing or that team is calling some teams saying "you want player X because if you dont trade up for him now, team B will draft him". Something along those lines.

In the end, a team just cannot wave a mgic wand and call a team like the Browns and say we will give you the 19th overall pick if you give us a 2nd and 3rd and a 3rd next year.

It takes two too tango.

Dammnit, I have repeated my self from my original post. ****.

villagewarrior
04-09-2010, 12:54 PM
Yes, it takes 2 to tango. I think there would be more trades if there was a rookie pay-slot system in place. It is too prohibitive financially picking in the top 5, top 10. That makes it much more risky if the player you trade up for busts out. Get the money under control and making mistakes won't be as prohibitive.