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View Full Version : LB Fun...What ifs...


UTPATS
03-11-2009, 11:05 AM
Looking back on the 2005 and 2006 drafts where we took MLBs, if we would have decided....

In 2005, instead of taking Burnett, we take Lofa Tatupu, drafter 3 spots later.

In 2006, instead of taking Carpenter, we take Demeco Ryans who went 15 spots later.


I know Parcells has "his" type guys that he was going to draft, and Lofa and Demeco probably are not "his" guys, but DANG, how nice would that have been?

Macarthur
03-11-2009, 11:35 AM
That's depressing.

For all the good the Big Tuna brought, he had his share of misses, too. And you would think LB would be a position Big Bill would be particularly astute.

OneToughGame
03-11-2009, 11:44 AM
I'm glad there's no take backs or time machines ^_^

leroyisgod
03-11-2009, 12:18 PM
Those guys really don't fit into a 3-4 scheme.

Macarthur
03-11-2009, 12:38 PM
Those guys really don't fit into a 3-4 scheme.

And Carpenter does?

I think there' too much stock put into that type of thing.

I bet Tatupu could be a good player for us regardless of the system.

leroyisgod
03-11-2009, 12:40 PM
And Carpenter does?

I think there' too much stock put into that type of thing.

I bet Tatupu could be a good player for us regardless of the system.

I never said Carpenter did fit. I just think those guys wouldn't fit.

JJJ888
03-11-2009, 12:51 PM
If those guys don't fit...then it's a pointless what if. They'd be just as big busts as Carpenter...

FinChase
03-11-2009, 12:56 PM
If we're doing what ifs, how about Anquan Boldin instead of Al Johnson in 2003, or anyone other than Jacob Rogers in 2004? We're all brilliant in hindsight.

Burns336
03-11-2009, 12:56 PM
I think Carpenter fits perfectly into a 3-4, he's got great versatility. He's able to play inside or out... He's just allergic to contact.

I'm just surprised Parcells couldn't sniff out a finesse player. If anything, he usually doesn't miss on "try hard" guys.

But yeah, no way would he draft someone as small as Tatupu to play in a 3-4... and try to remember, Tatupu wasn't jaw dropping coming out of SC. He wasn't projected to be anything close to the pro bowler he ended up becoming.

D-Unit
03-11-2009, 12:57 PM
These threads are ridiculous. If every GM was critiqued, they'll all look no better than monkeys drafting in thier stead. Are we gonna start the, oh we missed on Tom Brady now?

leroyisgod
03-11-2009, 12:59 PM
These threads are ridiculous. If every GM was critiqued, they'll all look no better than monkeys drafting in thier stead. Are we gonna start the, oh we missed on Tom Brady now?

Oh crap, you're right. Brady would've been a great steal. :)

JJJ888
03-11-2009, 12:59 PM
These threads are ridiculous. If every GM was critiqued, they'll all look no better than monkeys drafting in thier stead. Are we gonna start the, oh we missed on Tom Brady now?

Man...I forgot about him. If we had drafted that Tom Brady guy, who I knew would be sweeeet, we'd never need this Romo chump.

FinChase
03-11-2009, 01:04 PM
Man...I forgot about him. If we had drafted that Tom Brady guy, who I knew would be sweeeet, we'd never need this Romo chump.

Yeah, and we would have missed out on the "Quincy Carter Experience" :D

UTPATS
03-11-2009, 01:29 PM
These threads are ridiculous. If every GM was critiqued, they'll all look no better than monkeys drafting in thier stead. Are we gonna start the, oh we missed on Tom Brady now?

Hey now, I was just simply pointing out something...Not trying to say what if on every position, just the ILB position on a couple of drafts that were interesting to me.

UTPATS
03-11-2009, 01:31 PM
If those guys don't fit...then it's a pointless what if. They'd be just as big busts as Carpenter...

I disagree.

So, Zach Thomas is ideal for a 3-4 as far as size goes?

He and Tatupu are basically the same size and Ryans is even taller with more agility!

Mike Mayock says it all of the time, a good play-making linebacker will fit into both a 4-3 and 3-4. Aaron Curry will be the same way!

leroyisgod
03-11-2009, 01:49 PM
I disagree.

So, Zach Thomas is ideal for a 3-4 as far as size goes?

He and Tatupu are basically the same size and Ryans is even taller with more agility!

Mike Mayock says it all of the time, a good play-making linebacker will fit into both a 4-3 and 3-4. Aaron Curry will be the same way!

I do not feel Zach Thomas is a good fit in a 3-4. He gets swallowed up by bigger OL all the time.

and Mike Mayock isn't the end all be all when it comes to talent scouts.

JJJ888
03-11-2009, 02:23 PM
I disagree.

So, Zach Thomas is ideal for a 3-4 as far as size goes?

He and Tatupu are basically the same size and Ryans is even taller with more agility!

Mike Mayock says it all of the time, a good play-making linebacker will fit into both a 4-3 and 3-4. Aaron Curry will be the same way!

Ryans coming out was like 230 pounds...definitely not what Big Bill wanted for his 3-4 ILBs. Which brings up another point: it was under the Parcells regime that these guys were drafted, while Thomas was a signing of the Phillips era. We all know that there are big differences between their styles of defense. Parcells would never have signed Thomas to play ILB...he also released him last year, which allowed us to pick him up.

UTPATS
03-11-2009, 03:16 PM
Ryans coming out was like 230 pounds...definitely not what Big Bill wanted for his 3-4 ILBs. Which brings up another point: it was under the Parcells regime that these guys were drafted, while Thomas was a signing of the Phillips era. We all know that there are big differences between their styles of defense. Parcells would never have signed Thomas to play ILB...he also released him last year, which allowed us to pick him up.

Thomas was also released because he was a 34 year old LB.

So, are you admitting Carpenter is a bust? Even though, according to "Big Bill", he was the prototypical 3-4 linebacker with tons of versatility.

All that I wanted to point out is that I would hate for us to make the same kind of mistake in this year’s draft by taking a guy who is “prototypical” for a position instead of their ability to make plays.

There are certain things that each position requires to be successful, I understand that. But, I would rather have a guy who can make plays than someone who has the “right” size, shape, speed.

For example: Take safety, there are things that a safety HAS to be able to do. In this day in age, especially in Wade’s scheme, a safety must COVER and TACKLE. Does the safety have to be 6’2” 215 lbs. and run a 4.40? No, in my opinion, if he can cover well and tackle well by making plays, he fits the bill. IF Orlando Scandrick cannot play free safety for us, it is not because he is too small, it’s because he cannot tackle well enough in the middle of the field.

Another example (which I think we did right, even though I hated it at first): WE chose Felix Jones over Rashard Mendenhall.

Felix is a cat who makes plays. He can take it the distance on any given play. Mendenhall is more of your ideal featured back, as far as size, speed and running style. It would have been a safe choice to take the guy who has the “right” size and speed for a feature back. But, Garrett and company wanted Felix, a guy who can make plays whenever he touches the ball.

I think taking a guy who has the "ideal" size and speed is vastly overrated. Give me a guy who MAKES PLAYS, has character and plays with heart!

thule
03-11-2009, 03:35 PM
Thomas was also released because he was a 34 year old LB.

So, are you admitting Carpenter is a bust? Even though, according to "Big Bill", he was the prototypical 3-4 linebacker with tons of versatility.

All that I wanted to point out is that I would hate for us to make the same kind of mistake in this year’s draft by taking a guy who is “prototypical” for a position instead of their ability to make plays.

There are certain things that each position requires to be successful, I understand that. But, I would rather have a guy who can make plays than someone who has the “right” size, shape, speed.

For example: Take safety, there are things that a safety HAS to be able to do. In this day in age, especially in Wade’s scheme, a safety must COVER and TACKLE. Does the safety have to be 6’2” 215 lbs. and run a 4.40? No, in my opinion, if he can cover well and tackle well by making plays, he fits the bill. IF Orlando Scandrick cannot play free safety for us, it is not because he is too small, it’s because he cannot tackle well enough in the middle of the field.

Another example (which I think we did right, even though I hated it at first): WE chose Felix Jones over Rashard Mendenhall.

Felix is a cat who makes plays. He can take it the distance on any given play. Mendenhall is more of your ideal featured back, as far as size, speed and running style. It would have been a safe choice to take the guy who has the “right” size and speed for a feature back. But, Garrett and company wanted Felix, a guy who can make plays whenever he touches the ball.

I think taking a guy who has the "ideal" size and speed is vastly overrated. Give me a guy who MAKES PLAYS, has character and plays with heart!

Mendenhall was faster with more to show for and just as many big plays coming out...let alone had an NFL build...noone can convince me otherwise....Felix looked great with us...but I have no doubt Mendenhall could have done the same thing. Mendenhall tested better in every drill than Jones did if my memory serves me right...yet felix is always regaurded as the better big play threat....I still don't get that. This said...I'm glad felix has looked good for us...

D-Unit
03-11-2009, 03:37 PM
Hey now, I was just simply pointing out something...Not trying to say what if on every position, just the ILB position on a couple of drafts that were interesting to me.
OK... just hope we don't start the why did we take Greg Ellis over Randy Moss and Al Johnson over Anquan Boldin crap again.

UTPATS
03-11-2009, 04:10 PM
Mendenhall was faster with more to show for and just as many big plays coming out...let alone had an NFL build...noone can convince me otherwise....Felix looked great with us...but I have no doubt Mendenhall could have done the same thing. Mendenhall tested better in every drill than Jones did if my memory serves me right...yet felix is always regaurded as the better big play threat....I still don't get that. This said...I'm glad felix has looked good for us...

There were several things that stuck out to me during training camp and preseason games this last year. After watching both Felix and Mendenhall, it seemed Felix just knew how to avoid tacklers. Much like Emmitt in his prime, never took a big hit and just had an ability to avoid guys, that's what I see in Felix. Mendenhall never really showed that to me, even in his college tape. He could run over and out run guys, but couldn't always make guys miss, which will limit him some in the NFL.

As far as their workouts go. Felix had a better 10 sec time (1.46 vs. 1.53), a better broad jump but the same vertical jump. Mendenhall did test slightly better on the others.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Mendenhall and even more so when we had a chance to draft him. But, Garrett and Co going against the grain by drafting Felix, showed me they looked at more than just the "ideal" measurables.

UTPATS
03-11-2009, 04:11 PM
OK... just hope we don't start the why did we take Greg Ellis over Randy Moss and Al Johnson over Anquan Boldin crap again.

I know, I know, I know, I was just thinking out loud. I will just have to quit doing that!

leroyisgod
03-11-2009, 04:46 PM
There were several things that stuck out to me during training camp and preseason games this last year. After watching both Felix and Mendenhall, it seemed Felix just knew how to avoid tacklers. Much like Emmitt in his prime, never took a big hit and just had an ability to avoid guys, that's what I see in Felix. Mendenhall never really showed that to me, even in his college tape. He could run over and out run guys, but couldn't always make guys miss, which will limit him some in the NFL.

As far as their workouts go. Felix had a better 10 sec time (1.46 vs. 1.53), a better broad jump but the same vertical jump. Mendenhall did test slightly better on the others.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Mendenhall and even more so when we had a chance to draft him. But, Garrett and Co going against the grain by drafting Felix, showed me they looked at more than just the "ideal" measurables.

That was the huge knock on Mendenhall before the draft last year, that he didn't avoid tackles.

thule
03-11-2009, 05:26 PM
There were several things that stuck out to me during training camp and preseason games this last year. After watching both Felix and Mendenhall, it seemed Felix just knew how to avoid tacklers. Much like Emmitt in his prime, never took a big hit and just had an ability to avoid guys, that's what I see in Felix. Mendenhall never really showed that to me, even in his college tape. He could run over and out run guys, but couldn't always make guys miss, which will limit him some in the NFL.

As far as their workouts go. Felix had a better 10 sec time (1.46 vs. 1.53), a better broad jump but the same vertical jump. Mendenhall did test slightly better on the others.

Don't get me wrong, I loved Mendenhall and even more so when we had a chance to draft him. But, Garrett and Co going against the grain by drafting Felix, showed me they looked at more than just the "ideal" measurables.

It just bugged me in hardknocks when it showed Garrett talking about both guys and he said that Mendenhall was a more fulltime back and Felix was more of a utility back that was more explosive. That just didn't make any sense to me.

Hopefully this season both players are healthy and we get to see them

UTPATS
03-12-2009, 08:47 AM
It just bugged me in hardknocks when it showed Garrett talking about both guys and he said that Mendenhall was a more fulltime back and Felix was more of a utility back that was more explosive. That just didn't make any sense to me.

Hopefully this season both players are healthy and we get to see them

I think Felix even surpirsed the coaching staff some by his ability to handle pass protect and run both inside and outside as well as he did. I think the coaching staff was just expecting a specialty player, to be used a little like Reggie Bush, but what they got was a more well-rounded running back.

I have no problems with it!!!!

LonghornsLegend
03-12-2009, 12:14 PM
Mendenhall was faster with more to show for and just as many big plays coming out...let alone had an NFL build...noone can convince me otherwise....Felix looked great with us...but I have no doubt Mendenhall could have done the same thing. Mendenhall tested better in every drill than Jones did if my memory serves me right...yet felix is always regaurded as the better big play threat....I still don't get that. This said...I'm glad felix has looked good for us...


It still didn't make very much sense, but even in limited time it was easy to see Felix is just more talented then Mendenhall at this level regardless of all that other stuff...Both guys had short seasons, but Mendenhall struggled from the get go, while Felix was electric from the time he had a football put in his arm.


I think Mendy will be good but he's not really a good fit with us and our personnel, I don't mind the whole "part time/utility back" label, because that's all it is is a label...It's easy to find two different kinds of backs, and we did that with Choice, and by all accounts Choice has been a much better NFL RB then Mendenhall has, and when you consider that Felix can literally score every time he touches the ball that's priceless in the NFL.


Not many guys have that type of effect, I didn't think he necessarily had it, but he does...Can't underrate that, besides what Garrett said I think Felix can handle 20 touches per game, all you need is another solid Rb with him, even Pitt was sharing carries with Mendenhall too.


I was just as pissed at the time, but Mendenhall would have to turn into Michael Turner, and Felix would have to top out as a Leon Washington type of player for me to regret it, but as of now Felix and Choice both looked more impressive in limited time then Mendy ever did, Choice just looked like a natural at the positions and his strong Senior Bowl just carried right over.

JJJ888
03-12-2009, 04:28 PM
It still didn't make very much sense, but even in limited time it was easy to see Felix is just more talented then Mendenhall at this level regardless of all that other stuff...Both guys had short seasons, but Mendenhall struggled from the get go, while Felix was electric from the time he had a football put in his arm.


I think Mendy will be good but he's not really a good fit with us and our personnel, I don't mind the whole "part time/utility back" label, because that's all it is is a label...It's easy to find two different kinds of backs, and we did that with Choice, and by all accounts Choice has been a much better NFL RB then Mendenhall has, and when you consider that Felix can literally score every time he touches the ball that's priceless in the NFL.


Not many guys have that type of effect, I didn't think he necessarily had it, but he does...Can't underrate that, besides what Garrett said I think Felix can handle 20 touches per game, all you need is another solid Rb with him, even Pitt was sharing carries with Mendenhall too.


I was just as pissed at the time, but Mendenhall would have to turn into Michael Turner, and Felix would have to top out as a Leon Washington type of player for me to regret it, but as of now Felix and Choice both looked more impressive in limited time then Mendy ever did, Choice just looked like a natural at the positions and his strong Senior Bowl just carried right over.

Let me start by saying how pleasantly surprised I was by Felix Jones' production. But to say that Mendenhall struggled from the get go is purely wrong. He was injured right off the bat, and when you don't have the chance to get cracking during OTAs and the beginning of training camp, you're a step behind. Second, Mendenhall was working behind Willie Parker, in a completely different role than he would have taken with the Cowboys. And you mention Felix and Tashard's limited time, but never Mendenhall's. What gives?

Now, let me finish this post by saying that if we hadn't selected Felix, we would have never taken Choice, so I am quite pleased with that aspect of the decision. In the end, I certainly won't complain about our stable of backs.

LonghornsLegend
03-12-2009, 04:35 PM
Let me start by saying how pleasantly surprised I was by Felix Jones' production. But to say that Mendenhall struggled from the get go is purely wrong. He was injured right off the bat, and when you don't have the chance to get cracking during OTAs and the beginning of training camp, you're a step behind. Second, Mendenhall was working behind Willie Parker, in a completely different role than he would have taken with the Cowboys. And you mention Felix and Tashard's limited time, but never Mendenhall's. What gives?

Now, let me finish this post by saying that if we hadn't selected Felix, we would have never taken Choice, so I am quite pleased with that aspect of the decision. In the end, I certainly won't complain about our stable of backs.



I must mean by the fumbling issues for one, Pitt wanted to get him involved but he was just a ST guy early on because they didn't trust him with game experience much...Granted he did start out solid vs Baltimore, but I think he did have a chance to crack the line-up and get more reps he just didn't show off the dynamics that Felix has shown since OTA's...People were raving about Felix since he put on shorts, and it carried over into his very first few touches in pre-season, as well as his first few touches in the regular season, that's not a knock against Mendy just saying that he didn't come out of the gates blaring like Felix did.


I tried to watch Mendenhall as much as I could because my whole family was born in Pitt and my pops is a huge fan of Mendy, but I do know the vibe around Mendy going into the first few weeks of the season wasn't a comparison to the one for Felix...Choice got his time late in the year so maybe that helped, but he's just more of a natural runner then Mendenhall, doesn't have the speed he does but he's a much better football player, and I don't think I'll change that opinion even when Mendy does get more time.


With that said I think Mendy will be a beast for Pitt, just started to see he didn't fit as well with what we were trying to do, and I don't think Felix was a reach I just didn't like him, I felt Chris Johnson was ok at that spot so I was all for that type of player in the 1st, having two 1st gave us that benefit.

thule
03-12-2009, 04:44 PM
I must mean by the fumbling issues for one, Pitt wanted to get him involved but he was just a ST guy early on because they didn't trust him with game experience much...Granted he did start out solid vs Baltimore, but I think he did have a chance to crack the line-up and get more reps he just didn't show off the dynamics that Felix has shown since OTA's...People were raving about Felix since he put on shorts, and it carried over into his very first few touches in pre-season, as well as his first few touches in the regular season, that's not a knock against Mendy just saying that he didn't come out of the gates blaring like Felix did.


I tried to watch Mendenhall as much as I could because my whole family was born in Pitt and my pops is a huge fan of Mendy, but I do know the vibe around Mendy going into the first few weeks of the season wasn't a comparison to the one for Felix...Choice got his time late in the year so maybe that helped, but he's just more of a natural runner then Mendenhall, doesn't have the speed he does but he's a much better football player, and I don't think I'll change that opinion even when Mendy does get more time.


With that said I think Mendy will be a beast for Pitt, just started to see he didn't fit as well with what we were trying to do, and I don't think Felix was a reach I just didn't like him, I felt Chris Johnson was ok at that spot so I was all for that type of player in the 1st, having two 1st gave us that benefit.

I really hated Felix...I'm sold for now...but I'm still weary.

That said...Mendenhall would be a returner similar to felix...except I think Mendenhall has also returned punts. Plus he is a special teams monster and could contribute as a back opposite or Barber. I think Fred Taylor/MJD....Mend would have been Taylor...Barber our MJD...

This year will prove if one is truly a bigger dynamic playmaker than the other...I don't think mendenhall will disappoint but i've been wrong before...hopefully for our sake jones is that guy.

But I wanted Johnson/Mendenhall over Jones. Johnson has shown more than them all in a run heavy scheme. This year will be fun to compare and contrast the three.

E-Man
03-12-2009, 05:12 PM
FWIW I hated the Felix pick too at the time, but mostly because I wanted Chris Johnson. I'm glad that Felix turned out to be something special before the injury. I like being wrong on Cowboy's picks. lol DeMarcus Ware was one of my wrong picks, and I tell him to the tv how glad I am that I was wrong about him.

As for the what if scenarios, they can be a real bummer. Lord knows I really wanted me Randy Moss back then. But then I look on the bright side and see steals in the blue and silver. Think about Dexter Coakley, Jason Witten, Marion Barber, Jay Ratliff, Orlando Scandrick, and my personal all time favorite Cowboy Larry Allen.:)

D-Unit
03-12-2009, 05:45 PM
FWIW I hated the Felix pick too at the time, but mostly because I wanted Chris Johnson. I'm glad that Felix turned out to be something special before the injury. I like being wrong on Cowboy's picks. lol DeMarcus Ware was one of my wrong picks, and I tell him to the tv how glad I am that I was wrong about him.

As for the what if scenarios, they can be a real bummer. Lord knows I really wanted me Randy Moss back then. But then I look on the bright side and see steals in the blue and silver. Think about Dexter Coakley, Jason Witten, Marion Barber, Jay Ratliff, Orlando Scandrick, and my personal all time favorite Cowboy Larry Allen.:)
Haha! That's funny that you speak to Ware and apologize to him through the TV! Classic!

thule
03-12-2009, 10:38 PM
I broke my tv when we passed on Randy Moss...Jerry's excuse was character concerns...what a joke...he still takes it out on us till this day....same with steven jackson....they should both be cowboys lol.

M.O.T.H.
03-13-2009, 04:21 AM
I broke my tv when we passed on Randy Moss...Jerry's excuse was character concerns...what a joke...he still takes it out on us till this day....same with steven jackson....they should both be cowboys lol.

You broke your tv? What were you like 11? You couldnt have known that much about Randy at that age. haha. I was around the same age...I remember that draft well, Randy was the first player I ever really wanted. That was the first draft I watched from first pick to last. My dad is a big Charger fan and wanted Leaf so bad. :D I remember watching the first few picks in 97' but, I didnt even understand what the hell was going on mostly. haha. I was like..."Who the heck is Orlando Pace?"

As for Steven Jackson...he was the only real blue chip RB prospect in that draft. I was sure we were coming away with Chris Perry or Kevin Jones but no, my dream came true and Jackson was right there for us. yup. :( Broke my heart. I was so pissed off. lol. I was a big Julius Jones fan too, though but, the love I had for Jackson was on another level.

thule
03-13-2009, 10:21 AM
You broke your tv? What were you like 11? You couldnt have known that much about Randy at that age. haha. I was around the same age...I remember that draft well, Randy was the first player I ever really wanted. That was the first draft I watched from first pick to last. My dad is a big Charger fan and wanted Leaf so bad. :D I remember watching the first few picks in 97' but, I didnt even understand what the hell was going on mostly. haha. I was like..."Who the heck is Orlando Pace?"

As for Steven Jackson...he was the only real blue chip RB prospect in that draft. I was sure we were coming away with Chris Perry or Kevin Jones but no, my dream came true and Jackson was right there for us. yup. :( Broke my heart. I was so pissed off. lol. I was a big Julius Jones fan too, though but, the love I had for Jackson was on another level.

I was mad because they started hyping moss at about pick 9...and all they did was slob on him and show highlight videos....I got so excited....then all of a sudden we passed on him for ellis...and everybody in the studio was like uh....

It was even worse when Jerry went on and talked about we didnt wanna go after him because of the character concerns...what a crock of ****...we've taken chances with guys ever since hes been here.

So it wasn't like I followed moss...but kiper got me excited.

steven jackson thing was the same way for me...didnt really follow him in college...but come draft day all you heard was he's falling he makes perfect sense for the cowboys.

E-Man
03-13-2009, 10:36 AM
Haha! That's funny that you speak to Ware and apologize to him through the TV! Classic!
Haha I do alot of talking to my tv. Me watching the Cowboys play is like a wrestling match. I do alot of trash talking and celebratory dances. I'm a good sport though, I always(unless it's a blow out lol) congratulate the other team if the Cowboys lose.......of course this congratulations is like 2 weeks after the fact, but hey it counts.:)

On a side note, it's cool to see you, Ward, and Thule still around. I used to be on here for a brief minute back when you and newkwhy(where is that guy?) had the DeMarcus Ware vs. Shawne Merriman debates. Nice to see y'all as mainstays.

E-Man
03-13-2009, 10:41 AM
I was mad because they started hyping moss at about pick 9...and all they did was slob on him and show highlight videos....I got so excited....then all of a sudden we passed on him for ellis...and everybody in the studio was like uh....

It was even worse when Jerry went on and talked about we didnt wanna go after him because of the character concerns...what a crock of ****...we've taken chances with guys ever since hes been here.

So it wasn't like I followed moss...but kiper got me excited.

steven jackson thing was the same way for me...didnt really follow him in college...but come draft day all you heard was he's falling he makes perfect sense for the cowboys.
I felt the same way that you did. After seeing them go 6-10 the year before, character concerns didn't matter to me. Moss and Irvin together would've been something else. But since I'm getting all misty eyed thinking about the past I'll bring up Larry Allen again. Supposedly he had a bad workout, and teams were weary of drafting him. But the 'Boys missed that workout, and the rest is history.

LonghornsLegend
03-13-2009, 11:29 AM
Talking hindsight of draft picks just makes me sick, Steven Jackson and Randy Moss? Ugh. Randy Moss was such a Cowboy pick, made sense in so many ways, and like MOTH said that was a crock when Jerry said that about character, like he hasn't taken bigger chances then that before.


Really makes me wonder how things would have went if we had drafted him.

JJJ888
03-13-2009, 12:21 PM
I was soooo wrong about Ware...if you went back and read the draft day threads from 2005, I was miserable after that first day (with the exception of the Kevin Burnett pick, which I really liked, although I wanted Justin Tuck, who went two spots earlier). I had Derrick Johnson graded out as the best player in the draft (shows what I knew back when I was a sophomore in high school), and when he was on the board at 11, I was ecstatic. Of course, at that point I also wanted to stick with the 4-3...

Glad I was wrong now though.

E-Man
03-13-2009, 12:36 PM
I was soooo wrong about Ware...if you went back and read the draft day threads from 2005, I was miserable after that first day (with the exception of the Kevin Burnett pick, which I really liked, although I wanted Justin Tuck, who went two spots earlier). I had Derrick Johnson graded out as the best player in the draft (shows what I knew back when I was a sophomore in high school), and when he was on the board at 11, I was ecstatic. Of course, at that point I also wanted to stick with the 4-3...

Glad I was wrong now though.
Derrick Johnson and Justin Tuck were the ones I wanted for the first round too. I was vehemently against switching to the 3-4, so Johnson and Tuck would've been my choices to keep it running. The defense would've looked like this to me:

RE: Justin Tuck
DT:La Roi Glover
DT: Jason Ferguson
LE: Greg Ellis
SLB: Bradie James
MLB: Dat Nguyen
WLB: Derrick Johnson
CB: Terence Newman
FS: ? lol
SS: Roy Williams
CB: Anthony Henry


Would've been a good D, but Ware is something special so I'm glad I'm wrong.

JJJ888
03-13-2009, 12:39 PM
Derrick Johnson and Justin Tuck were the ones I wanted for the first round too. I was vehemently against switching to the 3-4, so Johnson and Tuck would've been my choices to keep it running. The defense would've looked like this to me:

RE: Justin Tuck
DT:La Roi Glover
DT: Jason Ferguson
LE: Greg Ellis
SLB: Bradie James
MLB: Dat Nguyen
WLB: Derrick Johnson
CB: Terence Newman
FS: ? lol
SS: Roy Williams
CB: Anthony Henry


Would've been a good D, but Ware is something special so I'm glad I'm wrong.

To be honest, I really wanted Antrel Rolle at safety (and no one believed me that he could play there...) with Tuck at 20. I remember D and I got into this HUGE debate about David Pollack vs. Justin Tuck...which I clearly won.

M.O.T.H.
03-13-2009, 01:05 PM
I was drooling over Ware after the combine...it was an easy sell after that. Merriman or Ware, either one I was happy.

D-Unit
03-13-2009, 01:15 PM
Haha I do alot of talking to my tv. Me watching the Cowboys play is like a wrestling match. I do alot of trash talking and celebratory dances. I'm a good sport though, I always(unless it's a blow out lol) congratulate the other team if the Cowboys lose.......of course this congratulations is like 2 weeks after the fact, but hey it counts.:)

On a side note, it's cool to see you, Ward, and Thule still around. I used to be on here for a brief minute back when you and newkwhy(where is that guy?) had the DeMarcus Ware vs. Shawne Merriman debates. Nice to see y'all as mainstays.
You're the kind of guy I like watching the game with! When I'm watching, my family thinks I'm nuts!

Yeah E, I remember you too. I made a sig for you back in the day too. lol. kwhy hasn't been around for years. you have a good memory though.

Being a mainstay is how I roll baby!

D-Unit
03-13-2009, 01:22 PM
I was soooo wrong about Ware...if you went back and read the draft day threads from 2005, I was miserable after that first day (with the exception of the Kevin Burnett pick, which I really liked, although I wanted Justin Tuck, who went two spots earlier). I had Derrick Johnson graded out as the best player in the draft (shows what I knew back when I was a sophomore in high school), and when he was on the board at 11, I was ecstatic. Of course, at that point I also wanted to stick with the 4-3...

Glad I was wrong now though.
...and I admit I was wrong about Tuck! I know you loved him and I kept telling you he sucks. hahah. I remember you loved Ryan Fitzpatrick like no other too! lol.

I think at the time we were all hoping for Derrick Johnson... with the impression we were sticking with the 4-3. We never knew we'd be going to the 3-4 for surety until that day.

As for David Pollack... lol. yeah, I definitely busted on him.

I wanted OU's WR Mark Clayton too, remember? He's sooo underwhelming now. Might have to do with the QB situation he had, but yeah... he didn't live up to my hype.

I remember being one of the early ones hyping up Jay Cutler here though. kwhy kept telling me that Jerry only goes for "Cadillac QBs".... and how Marcus Vick was so dreamy for him. He even convinced me and I took Vick for us in a forum mock. OMG... ha!

Fun memories... thanks guys!

pocketaces
03-13-2009, 04:21 PM
I felt the same way that you did. After seeing them go 6-10 the year before, character concerns didn't matter to me. Moss and Irvin together would've been something else. But since I'm getting all misty eyed thinking about the past I'll bring up Larry Allen again. Supposedly he had a bad workout, and teams were weary of drafting him. But the 'Boys missed that workout, and the rest is history.

Irvin is the reason we couldnt take Moss. Even Micheal said he was the reason Jerry couldnt take him. Irvin was in trouble with the law and Moss had issues. It would have been a huge PR hit.

thule
03-13-2009, 04:53 PM
Irvin is the reason we couldnt take Moss. Even Micheal said he was the reason Jerry couldnt take him. Irvin was in trouble with the law and Moss had issues. It would have been a huge PR hit.

like pacman jones and tank johnson weren't....

Paul
03-13-2009, 05:04 PM
like pacman jones and tank johnson weren't....

Skipping on Moss was probably the tipping point for Jerry. He seemed more willing to take a chance on a talented player with character issues after seeing what Moss became.

thule
03-13-2009, 05:06 PM
Skipping on Moss was probably the tipping point for Jerry. He seemed more willing to take a chance on a talented player with character issues after seeing what Moss became.

eh....good point...I'll just quit this argument as I don't have the memory/data to back up that he took chances before that.

Charles Haley was a chance tho right? If I remember right.

JJJ888
03-13-2009, 07:07 PM
...and I admit I was wrong about Tuck! I know you loved him and I kept telling you he sucks. hahah. I remember you loved Ryan Fitzpatrick like no other too! lol.

I think at the time we were all hoping for Derrick Johnson... with the impression we were sticking with the 4-3. We never knew we'd be going to the 3-4 for surety until that day.

As for David Pollack... lol. yeah, I definitely busted on him.

I wanted OU's WR Mark Clayton too, remember? He's sooo underwhelming now. Might have to do with the QB situation he had, but yeah... he didn't live up to my hype.

I remember being one of the early ones hyping up Jay Cutler here though. kwhy kept telling me that Jerry only goes for "Cadillac QBs".... and how Marcus Vick was so dreamy for him. He even convinced me and I took Vick for us in a forum mock. OMG... ha!

Fun memories... thanks guys!

I remember kwhy's and my forum mock that year consisted of Brodney Poole at 20 (we trade away the 11th for a late first and early 2nd), Khalif Barnes, Roddy White (who I really liked as well), and a trade for Darren Howard at 42. We then took Michael Boley and and Cedric Houston in the 4th and 5th rounds.

I guess that wasn't as bad as I thought...although our defense sure would look different. The White and Boley picks kinda save my butt.

On the Ryan Fitzpatrick subject (who proved to me this year that he was worthy of the 6-7th round hype I gave him), there's another Harvard QB, Chris Pizzotti, who has similar if not better skills. Nice accuracy, good skills at reading defenses (his TD to Int ratio was 31:8 the past two years and completed 63 % of his passes--granted, all in the Ivy League), decent mobility, and clearly a smart kid. Maybe not the developmental Tony Romo-style QB we're looking for right now, but an intriguing kid in the Jason Garrett mold nonetheless.

Maybe I'll go back and look at the film and hype him up in the thread.

E-Man
03-13-2009, 07:17 PM
You're the kind of guy I like watching the game with! When I'm watching, my family thinks I'm nuts!

Yeah E, I remember you too. I made a sig for you back in the day too. lol. kwhy hasn't been around for years. you have a good memory though.

Being a mainstay is how I roll baby!

See this is why I came back to this board. lol Glad I remembered this place after getting my new comp. I need a place to talk to die hard Cowboy fans with realistic expectations. Ugh the amount of people around here that think Romo should be cut makes me sick to my stomach.

I remember that cool sig you made for me. Wish I saved it to a flash drive or something. But can you tell me how to make a sig? I have this cool pic of Colossus on my desktop, and he's in that Jay Ratliff pose. I wanted to put the two side by side.

pocketaces
03-14-2009, 08:15 AM
like pacman jones and tank johnson weren't....

The difference being, we didn't have anybody currently on the team that was already in trouble with the law. If you have a good image and no trouble makers it allows you to take a chance on a pacman ect... Jerry will take chances, you just have to pick your spots.

FearTheSpur
03-15-2009, 10:41 AM
I think Demeco Ryans would have been a good fit here personally.