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View Full Version : Josh Freeman: the Jay Cutler of this draft?


Matthew Jones
03-11-2009, 02:42 PM
I find it interesting how both quarterbacks had very similar careers, although everyone loved Cutler and everyone hates Freeman. Freeman comes out two years younger than Cutler and as a junior, but actually has more starting experience. This is a matchup of them as prospects:

Jay Cutler (SR), 6'3" 230

45 career starts

2005 (SR): 3,073 yards (59.1%), 6.65 YPA, 21 TD, 9 INT

Vanderbilt: 5-7

---

Josh Freeman (JR) 6'6", 250

33 career starts

2008 (JR): 2,945 yards (58.6%), 7.71 YPA, 20 TD, 8 INT (14 rush TD)

Kansas State: 5-7

I'm not exactly seeing what made Cutler such a Godly prospect on this site and what makes Freeman a colossal bust.

Shane P. Hallam
03-11-2009, 02:43 PM
I think Cutler was more of a pure passer, stats are great and all, but looking at the tape, Cutler was a lot more polished. Now, that being said, Freeman has a ceiling that is Cutler-esque, but I think Cutler combined many of those attributes with a more polished overall look to put him in that top range.

CC.SD
03-11-2009, 02:44 PM
Freeman is from the town of Kwanzaa.

Matthew Jones
03-11-2009, 02:47 PM
I think Cutler was more of a pure passer, stats are great and all, but looking at the tape, Cutler was a lot more polished. Now, that being said, Freeman has a ceiling that is Cutler-esque, but I think Cutler combined many of those attributes with a more polished overall look to put him in that top range.

I remember Cutler making a lot of questionable throws and throws off of his back foot or into multiple coverage. He's continued to do that in the NFL, where he has 32 INTs in his last 32 starts, without a winning record or playoff appearance. He's a good quarterback right now and could be a top one, but I wouldn't say he's very polished. I wouldn't be surprised if Freeman went in the same range as Cutler, even possibly ahead of Mark Sanchez (and for people who think that's ridiculous, remember that Miami almost traded up not for Brady Quinn but for John Beck.)

Shane P. Hallam
03-11-2009, 02:49 PM
I remember Cutler making a lot of questionable throws and throws off of his back foot or into multiple coverage. He's continued to do that in the NFL, where he has 32 INTs in his last 32 starts, without a winning record or playoff appearance. He's a good quarterback right now and could be a top one, but I wouldn't say he's very polished. I wouldn't be surprised if Freeman went in the same range as Cutler, even possibly ahead of Mark Sanchez (and for people who think that's ridiculous, remember that Miami almost traded up not for Brady Quinn but for John Beck.)

I didn't say he was very polished coming out, just a lot more than Freeman. Cutler had more of a gunslinger attitude, which was his knock. Freeman just doesn't make the throws sometimes and struggles identifying coverage I believe. Thus the difference. Stats are not the be all end all.

TimD
03-11-2009, 02:53 PM
Pure athletics Josh Freeman may be the best QB prospect in a while. But when it comes to knowledge, that's his knock. He struggles with coverages, but he is used to playing in a pro-style offense which will help his stock. He could turn out awesome or bust big time.

Matthew Jones
03-11-2009, 02:55 PM
I would say it's more inconsistency than anything - he had all of his interceptions in three games this year (and in the Oklahoma game, he also threw for 478 yards and 3 TDs), and aside from those three games, had 28 total TD with no INTs in the other 9. He has extensive experience in a pro system and his YPA went up big time since last year, even without legitimate NFL prospects on his offense playing in the Big 12. Also, he's the second best QB in a while athletically, the top being JaMarcus Russell.

Babylon
03-11-2009, 03:10 PM
Pure athletics Josh Freeman may be the best QB prospect in a while. But when it comes to knowledge, that's his knock. He struggles with coverages, but he is used to playing in a pro-style offense which will help his stock. He could turn out awesome or bust big time.

I'm not convinced any team in the Big-12 plays in what you would call a pro style offense and i'm not convinced that Freeman is more athletic than Stafford of Sanchez.

bitonti
03-11-2009, 03:12 PM
Cutler beat better teams, played better in big games, and stayed 4 years. Freeman beat worse teams, played like garbage in big games (check his Kansas games) and stayed 3 years.

bitonti
03-11-2009, 03:13 PM
I find it interesting how both quarterbacks had very similar careers, although everyone loved Cutler and everyone hates Freeman. Freeman comes out two years younger than Cutler and as a junior, but actually has more starting experience. This is a matchup of them as prospects:

Jay Cutler (SR), 6'3" 230

22 career starts

2005 (SR): 3,073 yards (59.1%), 6.65 YPA, 21 TD, 9 INT

Vanderbilt: 5-7

---

Josh Freeman (JR) 6'6", 250

33 career starts

2008 (JR): 2,945 yards (58.6%), 7.71 YPA, 20 TD, 8 INT (14 rush TD)

Kansas State: 5-7

I'm not exactly seeing what made Cutler such a Godly prospect on this site and what makes Freeman a colossal bust.


Cutler started 45 games most in Vandy history, not 22. He was a 4 year starter and a 3 year captain.

Matthew Jones
03-11-2009, 03:22 PM
Cutler started 45 games most in Vandy history, not 22. He was a 4 year starter and a 3 year captain.

I was mistaken - ESPN.com didn't show any statistics for his first two years. You sure you wanted to bring up that 48% completion percentage as a freshman? He really only played well as a senior.

D-Unit
03-11-2009, 03:39 PM
I dunno... I'm thinking more along the lines of Kyle Boller.

batsandgats
03-11-2009, 04:30 PM
cutler also played against sec defenses with a team that doesnt belong in the sec, and freeman did it in the big 12 against swiss cheese defenses, and he had Jordy Nelson who was a great receiver in the 2007 season who caught anything that was near his vicinity

CC.SD
03-11-2009, 04:37 PM
cutler also played against sec defenses with a team that doesnt belong in the sec, and freeman did it in the big 12 against swiss cheese defenses, and he had Jordy Nelson who was a great receiver in the 2007 season who caught anything that was near his vicinity

UndereZzzZZztimated factor. Freeman is better than Cutler because at some point Jordy probably gave him a high five.

batsandgats
03-11-2009, 04:47 PM
UndereZzzZZztimated factor. Freeman is better than Cutler because at some point Jordy probably gave him a high five.

hahaha, and he gave him the chest bounce

nepg
03-11-2009, 05:04 PM
Freeman has a nice ceiling, but it's just not happening. To compare him to Cutler is just foolish. They're nothing alike.

Cutler was extremely polished coming out of Vanderbilt...doesn't hurt that he went to VANDERBILT... He kept his team in games, and was an obvious leader for an SEC team during one of the SEC's peaks. He obviously had the mental part of the game mastered, and the film shows just great polish and ability to make things happen.

Freeman has a good head on his shoulders, he's a good, smart kid. But it hasn't been translating on the football field. His mechanics aren't good, he lacks polish, he makes awful decisions with the football, and just doesn't do things to get his team in position to win games (or be competitive). Freeman needs 24/7 service from a pro QB coach. He should have done that over the Summer rather than declaring for the draft.

Because of all of his inadequacies, Freeman is just a massive project. Cutler was ready to go out of the box. Big difference all-around. Again, nothing alike.
________
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Larry121283
03-12-2009, 08:18 AM
Cutler has one of the best arms you'll ever see. The thing is a howitzer on his shoulder.

I wasn't a big fan of Cutler when coming out, I'll be honest. Thought he'd bust. I was wrong...but I did acknowledge his upside and his ridiculous arm.

Freeman, while has become consensus 3rd QB off the board, and is now the token late first round-early second round QB of the year (previous award goes to Joe Flacco, Kellen Clemens, John Beck, Jason Campbell, JP Losman, Kyle Boller, and Pat Ramsey...dang, I thought I was hyperbolizing, but there really is a guy every year, lol).

When there is lack of depth at the position, that is what happened. that "next best" guy gets pushed up higher then his draft grade would make him. If you don't get Sanchez or Stafford, if you wait for Freeman with your "next" pick, you might not get him and after that guy, you have clump of second day types...so, it'll be a battle for that "next best" guy.

Halsey
03-12-2009, 08:22 AM
The original poster got it wrong from the beginning. Not everyone liked Cutler when he came out. There were all types of questions about him. And posting stats doesn't make them alike.

635
03-12-2009, 08:37 AM
Pure athletics Josh Freeman may be the best QB prospect in a while. But when it comes to knowledge, that's his knock. He struggles with coverages, but he is used to playing in a pro-style offense which will help his stock. He could turn out awesome or bust big time.

Josh freeman Is NOT one of the most athletic QBs to come out in a while...By a long shot.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-12-2009, 09:25 AM
Cutler really looked the part coming out which is why a lot of people were high on him. As soon as you watched Cutler drop back, plant his foot, and deliver a strike, you could picture him on Sunday's shredding opposing defenses.

I don't think Freeman has had that same effect on scouts as it stands right now. His mechanics are very inconsistent which is likely the reason his accuracy is insufficient.

I think Freeman has potential (especially being that he'll be 21 as a rookie, very young player) but he really needs to sit and learn for a few years. If he gets thrown into the fire too soon he won't be able to iron out his mechanics which are his problem right now.

I definitely think coming out early was a mistake for Freeman in terms of his development as a quarterback. Another season in the NCAA would have really benefited him.

635
03-12-2009, 09:33 AM
Cutler really looked the part coming out which is why a lot of people were high on him. As soon as you watched Cutler drop back, plant his foot, and deliver a strike, you could picture him on Sunday's shredding opposing defenses.

I don't think Freeman has had that same effect on scouts as it stands right now. His mechanics are very inconsistent which is likely the reason his accuracy is insufficient.

I think Freeman has potential (especially being that he'll be 21 as a rookie, very young player) but he really needs to sit and learn for a few years. If he gets thrown into the fire too soon he won't be able to iron out his mechanics which are his problem right now.

I definitely think coming out early was a mistake for Freeman in terms of his development as a quarterback. Another season in the NCAA would have really benefited him.

so many things wrong with that post

1.Josh Freeman has excellent mechanics. that's actually one of his strong suits, is that he has excellent mechanics and a good delivery. His "inaccuracy" stemmed from the boo boo players that played around him. I repeat there is nothing deficient or inadequate about his mechanics.

2.Also, Going Back to college another year wouldn't have helped him at all. Bill Snyder is back as the coach, and he wasn't going to be running that pro-style offense That K-state has been running for the past couple of years. He would have been running a run based offense that relies on a dual threat QB, which Josh Freeman certainly is not. So going back to School would have served him zero purposes, especially combined with the sorry players he would have had to play with.

You don't know it all, you know very little.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-12-2009, 09:39 AM
so many things wrong with that post

1.Josh Freeman has excellent mechanics. that's actually one of his strong suits, is that he has excellent mechanics and a good delivery. His "inaccuracy" stemmed from the boo boo players that played around him. I repeat there is nothing deficient or inadequate about his mechanics.

2.Also, Going Back to college another year wouldn't have helped him at all. Bill Snyder is back as the coach, and he wasn't going to be running that pro-style offense That K-state has been running for the past couple of years. He would have been running a run based offense that relies on a dual threat QB, which Josh Freeman certainly is not. So going back to School would have served him zero purposes, especially combined with the sorry players he would have had to play with.

You don't know it all, you know very little.

Am I reading this right? You think Freeman has excellent mechanics?

I think the vast majority of people would disagree with you there. Anytime he feels pressure it's like he forgets how to play football. At least that's my opinion, and the opinion of most of the scouting reports I've read on him.

But if I'm missing something, let me know.

ElectricEye
03-12-2009, 09:42 AM
Cutler played in the SEC, Freeman looked lost at times in the Big XII.
Freeman got left out of the numbers party of the Big XII and while that might have a lot to do with poor receivers, he still looked very raw against some very poor passing defenses. He doesn't read coverages effectively and doesn't always put the ball where it needs to be. Cutler was a ton more polished coming out as well. Watching him, he just looked the part. Freeman doesn't really do that for me. I can't see him succeeding in the NFL at this point because he's just so damned raw.

635
03-12-2009, 09:45 AM
Am I reading this right? You think Freeman has excellent mechanics?

I think the vast majority of people would disagree with you there. Anytime he feels pressure it's like he forgets how to play football. At least that's my opinion, and the opinion of most of the scouting reports I've read on him.

But if I'm missing something, let me know.

You're missing everything....Josh Freeman has excellent mechanics, a good wind-up and quick release on his throws...You've read scouting reports on him, you haven't watch any of his games at all. His mechanics are fundamentally excellent.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-12-2009, 09:49 AM
You're missing everything....Josh Freeman has excellent mechanics, a good wind-up and quick release on his throws...You've read scouting reports on him, you haven't watch any of his games at all. His mechanics are fundamentally excellent.

I watched several of his games as well as game tape. Scouting reports on him all consistently agree with me and says his mechanics are inconsistent and sloppy.

The guy has all the physical tools in the world, why else do you think he's not a top-rated quarterback?

635
03-12-2009, 09:53 AM
prove it. he said/she said is lame. if you think every scouting report on him is wrong (which would be a fairly impressive presumption), then throw out a video clip, or breakdown his mechanics. but just saying, point blank, that they're excellent proves nothing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoDjfUS7YH0

Look at the man's throws, His dropback is good, HE doesn't hold the ball too too high (which is good considering he is tall as hell), He always has his body parallel to his receiver (something a lot of college Qbs don't do), and he doesn't waste motion when releasing the ball because he gets it out of there quickly and doesn't go throw a long Windup a-la Byron Leftwich or Andre Woodson. And Most importantly, he releases it very quickly....


Now you prove to me that his mechancis are flawed, besides reciting what the scouting reports you've read say

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/josh-freeman?id=79557#player-profile-tab-set-1:player-profile-tab-analysis

ElectricEye
03-12-2009, 09:56 AM
I don't think that video shows much of a difference between the scouting reports. I really don't like his release point. The ball doesn't come out cleanly.

superman
03-12-2009, 09:58 AM
wait, what makes freeman and russel the most athletic qb's to come out in a while? because they're big and black?

in both drafts there was more athletic ones

635
03-12-2009, 09:58 AM
I don't think that video shows much of a difference between the scouting reports. I really don't like his release point. The ball doesn't come out cleanly.

His release point is good, because if he holds it any higher,he risks having a lot of overthrown balls due to his height, and while he does get the ball out quickly, it ckan come out sloppily at times, I agree.

635
03-12-2009, 09:59 AM
wait, what makes freeman and russel the most athletic qb's to come out in a while? because they're big and black?

in both drafts there was more athletic ones

Freeman is nowhere near as Atheltic as Russell. at all....

Freeman is not that great of an athlete.

superman
03-12-2009, 10:02 AM
Freeman is nowhere near as Atheltic as Russell. at all....

Freeman is not that great of an athlete.

i'm not saying either is overly athletic. someone above did.

ElectricEye
03-12-2009, 10:02 AM
His release point is good, because if he holds it any higher,he risks having a lot of overthrown balls due to his height, and while he does get the ball out quickly, it ckan come out sloppily at times, I agree.

Eh, I've seen quarterbacks his height hold the ball a little higher and not have much of a problem with overthrows. Looks like he's holding it too close into his shoulder too. Just doesn't look like very much of a natural motion to me.

YAYareaRB
03-12-2009, 10:05 AM
I'm not convinced any team in the Big-12 plays in what you would call a pro style offense and i'm not convinced that Freeman is more athletic than Stafford of Sanchez.

Kansas State does play in Pro Style Offense.. and I'm just baffled at the 2nd statement.

Pittbc7
03-12-2009, 10:33 AM
Kansas State does play in Pro Style Offense.. and I'm just baffled at the 2nd statement.


Why are you baffled? Freeman isn't some amazing athlete. Stafford and Sanchez are both athletic. I think people think he is some great running threat because of his high number of rushing TD'S.

Saints-Tigers
03-12-2009, 11:31 AM
Freeman isn't overly fast or elusive, I think Sanchez is more mobile for sure, and I'm not even a fan of his...

635
03-12-2009, 11:46 AM
i don't recall ever suggesting they were flawed, but you disagreed with someone quoting scouting reports by essentially saying "i'm right, period." now that you've demonstrated some evidence, your argument is more compelling (although, since i can't youtube at work, you might've also just rickrolled me or something).

I didn't rickroll you, I proved you wrong

I KNOW IT ALL
03-12-2009, 12:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoDjfUS7YH0

Look at the man's throws, His dropback is good, HE doesn't hold the ball too too high (which is good considering he is tall as hell), He always has his body parallel to his receiver (something a lot of college Qbs don't do), and he doesn't waste motion when releasing the ball because he gets it out of there quickly and doesn't go throw a long Windup a-la Byron Leftwich or Andre Woodson. And Most importantly, he releases it very quickly....


Now you prove to me that his mechancis are flawed, besides reciting what the scouting reports you've read say

http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/josh-freeman?id=79557#player-profile-tab-set-1:player-profile-tab-analysis

I already told you what I think of his mechanics. They are inconsistent.

His backpedal is too slow. His release isn't very good, as evidenced by his poor accuracy and touch. Under pressure he relies on his arm strength and forgets about mechanics (stepping into throws, facing receiver, etc.). Seems to leave the ball exposed in the pocket and doesn't feel pressure.

Those are most of my problems with him, and I bet you'll find that most scouting reports say similar things. Do you really that you have some insight that all of these other scouts don't have? Is it just a giant conspiracy against Freeman or does he have glaring weaknesses in his mechanics?

FreeBaGeL
03-13-2009, 10:34 PM
Cutler played on a team that was consistently one of the worst among BCS conference teams for the past couple decades, and played against some of the toughest defenses in the nation week in and week out.

Freeman played on a traditionally mediocre team in a conference known for strong offenses and porous defense.

Given that, the fact that the two put up similar numbers is a big notch on Cutler's belt when comparing the two.

BuddyCHRIST
03-14-2009, 11:52 AM
I would say it's more inconsistency than anything - he had all of his interceptions in three games this year (and in the Oklahoma game, he also threw for 478 yards and 3 TDs), and aside from those three games, had 28 total TD with no INTs in the other 9. He has extensive experience in a pro system and his YPA went up big time since last year, even without legitimate NFL prospects on his offense playing in the Big 12. Also, he's the second best QB in a while athletically, the top being JaMarcus Russell.

I did it in a previous post and don't feel like looking it up again, but if you actually look at his game by games stats for the year. His stats are actually skewed to being better because he had a few great games against bad teams and then very average outside of that.

I don't understand what people are saying about his release though, its what impressed me most. Very quick.

635
03-14-2009, 12:21 PM
I did it in a previous post and don't feel like looking it up again, but if you actually look at his game by games stats for the year. His stats are actually skewed to being better because he had a few great games against bad teams and then very average outside of that.

I don't understand what people are saying about his release though, its what impressed me most. Very quick.

they don't watch games, they take their analysis from elsewhere and just run with it