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View Full Version : Who are the best 4-3 LE's available?


R.I.P._Deuce_1
03-12-2009, 07:50 PM
He everybody, I'm new to the board in posting but I've been lurking here for years (specifically around draft time).

Being that my Washington Redskins are in need of a 4-3 LE, (a true one not like Mr. Dancing with the stars, who just got the boot),

I was wondering who are the best LE's available?

Thanks in advance...

gpngc
03-12-2009, 07:54 PM
Tyson Jackson, LSU
Robert Ayers, Tennessee
Michael Bennett, Texas A&M
Rulon Davis, Cal
Pannel Egboh, Stanford
Zach Potter, Nebraska

bigbluedefense
03-12-2009, 07:55 PM
I like Larry English a lot.

roscoesdad27
03-12-2009, 07:57 PM
I think michael johnson could be an excellent l.e., he has the frame to get to 280 pounds or more in his prime and he is an amazing athlete with better production than givin credit for...you would have to get him in the first thou.

Jaron Gilbert would be another option with the first pick and he would be a justin tuck type and kick in to u.t. (also a need) on passing downs.

shaugnessy and sidbury are good value in the third.

Matthew Jones
03-12-2009, 07:58 PM
I think Tyson Jackson (run stopper) and Larry English (pass rusher) are both well-rounded enough, and have similar grades, it's just based on preference at that point. Like I mentioned, Jackson offers more in run support and English more as an edge rusher, although it's not like either one is bad in either category. Robert Ayers is an option in the second.

gpngc
03-12-2009, 08:15 PM
I think Tyson Jackson (run stopper) and Larry English (pass rusher) are both well-rounded enough, and have similar grades, it's just based on preference at that point. Like I mentioned, Jackson offers more in run support and English more as an edge rusher, although it's not like either one is bad in either category. Robert Ayers is an option in the second.

Larry English as a 4-3 LE could really become clearer if someone could confirm his actual weight! It's a 19-lb difference on NFL.com from ESPN. (274-255)

Matthew Jones
03-12-2009, 08:18 PM
It's 255 as far as I know.

bigbluedefense
03-12-2009, 08:19 PM
I think michael johnson could be an excellent l.e., he has the frame to get to 280 pounds or more in his prime and he is an amazing athlete with better production than givin credit for...you would have to get him in the first thou.

Jaron Gilbert would be another option with the first pick and he would be a justin tuck type and kick in to u.t. (also a need) on passing downs.

shaugnessy and sidbury are good value in the third.

Michael Johnson can be a great anything, if he gives a damn. The sky is the limit for him, he just has to want it.

eaglesalltheway
03-12-2009, 09:10 PM
It's 255 as far as I know.
If he is 255, he has got to have other-wordly strength, hand placement, explosion of the snap, and other technique to be a successful LE. I know he is more of a pass rusher, but at 255 as a LE, that is really tough to ask of anybody. The LE usually gets run at more and have to face more raod-grading type guys. Sure he could make a great impact as a pass rusher, but if he is going to be a 4-3 End, he is best suited as a RE, especially if he needs to bulk up from 255 lbs.

etk
03-12-2009, 10:01 PM
Michael Johnson can be a great anything, if he gives a damn. The sky is the limit for him, he just has to want it.

At least he wants to be in prime physical condition. People underrated how difficult it is to prepare yourself for football through off-field training.

MJ makes no sense to me. It should be easy to play hard on the field but difficult to dedicate oneself off the field.

That's why I love his potential. He's not a lazy dude in general, he just needs good coaching.

bigbluedefense
03-13-2009, 07:53 PM
At least he wants to be in prime physical condition. People underrated how difficult it is to prepare yourself for football through off-field training.

MJ makes no sense to me. It should be easy to play hard on the field but difficult to dedicate oneself off the field.

That's why I love his potential. He's not a lazy dude in general, he just needs good coaching.

last year he wouldve been a surefire first rounder.

but with Vernon Gholston fresh in everyone's mind, he's a 2nd rounder this year.

Theres too many factors for us to generalize. Maybe he's dumb. Maybe he's got an issue with coaching/ppl telling him what to do. Maybe he just doesn't care. Who knows.

I think with guys like him, the interview process and wonderlic do in fact give you a good idea of whether they're worth the risk or not.

bigbluedefense
03-13-2009, 07:55 PM
If he is 255, he has got to have other-wordly strength, hand placement, explosion of the snap, and other technique to be a successful LE. I know he is more of a pass rusher, but at 255 as a LE, that is really tough to ask of anybody. The LE usually gets run at more and have to face more raod-grading type guys. Sure he could make a great impact as a pass rusher, but if he is going to be a 4-3 End, he is best suited as a RE, especially if he needs to bulk up from 255 lbs.

what does weight have to do with it? He plays strong, and plays with good leverage. Michael Strahan at 255 lbs played like he was 300 lbs because of good size/strength and incredible leverage.

English definitely has the strength at that size to play base LE, and I think he has potential to play with great leverage as well.

English isn't a lanky, weak guy. He's squat and strong. He'll be fine at LE, regardless of what he weighed in as.

etk
03-13-2009, 08:01 PM
what does weight have to do with it? He plays strong, and plays with good leverage. Michael Strahan at 255 lbs played like he was 300 lbs because of good size/strength and incredible leverage.

English definitely has the strength at that size to play base LE, and I think he has potential to play with great leverage as well.

English isn't a lanky, weak guy. He's squat and strong. He'll be fine at LE, regardless of what he weighed in as.

Strahan had an insanely strong base, insanely strong arms and hands which he used to his advantage very well, and he was smooth with good feet.

English....meh. He can hold up fine as a RDE but it's a liability to have him and another pass rush type on the field on running downs.

Nothing wrong with the points you made, I just don't think he'll be fine at LE unless it's on passing situations.


With Michael Johnson, it's critical to interview the coaching staff and find out the circumstances surrounding him, the scheme and what not. From watching GT's defenses I got the idea that his role in the defense was not always a speed rush to get to the QB. They used him in a number of different ways which contributed to disappointing production from him. He's also slow at jumping the snap which could be attributed to coaching (avoid penalties).

bigbluedefense
03-13-2009, 08:15 PM
Strahan had an insanely strong base, insanely strong arms and hands which he used to his advantage very well, and he was smooth with good feet.

English....meh. He can hold up fine as a RDE but it's a liability to have him and another pass rush type on the field on running downs.

Nothing wrong with the points you made, I just don't think he'll be fine at LE unless it's on passing situations.


With Michael Johnson, it's critical to interview the coaching staff and find out the circumstances surrounding him, the scheme and what not. From watching GT's defenses I got the idea that his role in the defense was not always a speed rush to get to the QB. They used him in a number of different ways which contributed to disappointing production from him. He's also slow at jumping the snap which could be attributed to coaching (avoid penalties).

English is a little stiff, and not as strong as Strahan, but I think he has potential. i like his squat frame, i think with good coaching, with better leverage, he can anchor the left side.

he's not going to be run stopper extraordinaire, but he'll be good enough to go with promising skills as a pass rusher.

i don't know what to make of Johnson. i see raw talent, and obviously untapped potential, but id only gamble on him if i was a team that didn't necessarily need a pass rusher and wanted to add quality depth. perhaps use him in a situational pass rushing role to cancel out his inconsistent motor, and take it from there.

foozball
03-13-2009, 09:36 PM
jarron gilbert

steelersfan43
03-13-2009, 10:06 PM
Is the only difference that the right ends are better pass rushers and left ends are better run stopers?

eaglesalltheway
03-14-2009, 04:20 PM
what does weight have to do with it? He plays strong, and plays with good leverage. Michael Strahan at 255 lbs played like he was 300 lbs because of good size/strength and incredible leverage.

English definitely has the strength at that size to play base LE, and I think he has potential to play with great leverage as well.

English isn't a lanky, weak guy. He's squat and strong. He'll be fine at LE, regardless of what he weighed in as.

I know what you're saying, and I know weight isn't a the end all be all, but there is a point when you can only have so much strength at a certain weight, your body just can't put out that type of strength. You know what I mean, at least I think...

All I was saying is with his size, and tools, he is a much better fit as a RE, where he will be able to use his stengths as a pass rusher better, and cover up his not-so strong points as a run defender. Even you must admit his better fit is as a RE instead of a LE. Your opinion is highly regarded in my eyes (even though you're a Giants fan, haha) and I think you'll agree his best position is as a RE. Sure he can play LE, but the position doesn't suit his as well as RE, for the reasons I said in the first post...

PuppyPuncher
03-14-2009, 06:36 PM
Michael Johnson doesn't play the run. Put him at LE and be prepared to give up 150+ yards on the ground a game.

jnew76
03-14-2009, 06:43 PM
jarron gilbert

Thank you... If anyone has Strahan like potential at LDE in a 4-3 it is Gilbert. If I was a team with the need, I would consider taking him in the top 10-15... maybe higher.

BUSTKUNTLAWL
03-14-2009, 06:44 PM
After the show Ayers put on during the Senior Bowl I'd have a hard time saying it's not him.

He can fly off the edge and is incredibly strong.

The way he was cornholing a very nice group of OL that week was impressive.

jnew76
03-14-2009, 06:49 PM
After the show Ayers put on during the Senior Bowl I'd have a hard time saying it's not him.

He can fly off the edge and is incredibly strong.

The way he was cornholing a very nice group of OL that week was impressive.

Absolutely, I have him and Gilbert rated well ahead of Tyson Jackson. Jackson's reputation is so much better than his tape.

TitanHope
03-14-2009, 06:54 PM
Tyson Jackson instantly comes to mind. Robert Ayers is perfect as well if he falls to the Skins in the 2nd RD.

Kyle Moore, Matt Shaughnessy on the 2nd Day. Someone said Rulon Davis, but I love him at UT - as long as he stays healthy...

BUSTKUNTLAWL
03-14-2009, 07:18 PM
Tyson Jackson instantly comes to mind. Robert Ayers is perfect as well if he falls to the Skins in the 2nd RD.

Kyle Moore, Matt Shaughnessy on the 2nd Day. Someone said Rulon Davis, but I love him at UT - as long as he stays healthy...

Ayers is going to be long gone before the 2nd round.

People are talking about him being a top 15ish guy now.

I always thought he'd be a good fit for the Titans, ironically..

bigbluedefense
03-14-2009, 07:59 PM
I know what you're saying, and I know weight isn't a the end all be all, but there is a point when you can only have so much strength at a certain weight, your body just can't put out that type of strength. You know what I mean, at least I think...

All I was saying is with his size, and tools, he is a much better fit as a RE, where he will be able to use his stengths as a pass rusher better, and cover up his not-so strong points as a run defender. Even you must admit his better fit is as a RE instead of a LE. Your opinion is highly regarded in my eyes (even though you're a Giants fan, haha) and I think you'll agree his best position is as a RE. Sure he can play LE, but the position doesn't suit his as well as RE, for the reasons I said in the first post...

Its a tough call with this guy. From my limited scouting of him, I don't know what to make of his first step. Sometimes he has a solid first step, other times it looks very slow off the snap. I don't know what to make of that.

If his first step is slow, I don't like him at RE. Left Tackles in the NFL will eat him up. I need to see a shuttle time on this guy.

I like how he plays low with good leverage, and I think he has adequate strength to anchor the left side. He's not a pure speed rusher either, he's not going to stretch that Left Tackle out wide, which is sometimes beneficial to blitzing teams because you want to create as much space in between gaps as possible for blitzers, or stunting linemen.

I think he plays with underrated power, and great leverage. He's squat, plays low, plays strong, and has decent but not great speed to him. His closing speed is great, but his burst is lacking.

So to me, I think he's better on the left side. If he is in fact 275, I think he's perfect for the left side. If he's only 255, Id have him bulk up another 10 lbs and still play on the left.

My opinion on this can change, but I need to know his true weight and his shuttle times first.

You know who he reminds me of? Terrell Suggs. I always liked Suggs more as a LE than a RE, and I kind of lean the same way with English.

By the way, I don't remember his combine, Im going off strictly game performance.

And thanks for the compliments, but fyi, i don't think too highly of my own opinion on college players because I don't watch enough college football to really get a good feel for these guys. I feel that I could formulate better opinions of these guys if I watched more games, but Im just not a big college football fan.

I can judge talent, but I just don't watch enough college ball to really have a good opinion on these guys. most of my opinions comes from very limited scouting on these guys.

So take it for what its worth.

TitanHope
03-14-2009, 08:21 PM
Ayers is going to be long gone before the 2nd round.

People are talking about him being a top 15ish guy now.

I always thought he'd be a good fit for the Titans, ironically..

Really? I think the 2nd RD is about right for him. But come to think of it, Washington doesn't have a 2nd RD pick, lol. Either way, I think Top 15 is unlikely. The end of the 1st RD is possible, like you suggested the Titans. I said in another thread that depending on the Titans future FA moves, that it would be possible that they pick a DE like the Giants did a few years ago with Kiwanuka.

Anyway, Washington's best bet would be Ty Jax with their 1st RD'er.

thetedginnshow
03-14-2009, 08:41 PM
last year he wouldve been a surefire first rounder.

but with Vernon Gholston fresh in everyone's mind, he's a 2nd rounder this year.

Theres too many factors for us to generalize. Maybe he's dumb. Maybe he's got an issue with coaching/ppl telling him what to do. Maybe he just doesn't care. Who knows.

I think with guys like him, the interview process and wonderlic do in fact give you a good idea of whether they're worth the risk or not.

Just wondering, but where then do you see Orakpo going? I laughed when Mayock talked about Michael Johnson being this year's Gholston. Gholston's stronger, but isn't the athlete Johnson is, and he was easily more productive.

bigbluedefense
03-16-2009, 11:48 AM
Just wondering, but where then do you see Orakpo going? I laughed when Mayock talked about Michael Johnson being this year's Gholston. Gholston's stronger, but isn't the athlete Johnson is, and he was easily more productive.

Probably to Cleveland. Was Johnson more productive than Gholston?

nepg
03-16-2009, 01:07 PM
Pretty sure English is in the 270 range, but cut down to make himself more attractive to 3-4 teams to improve his stock.
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PACKmanN
03-16-2009, 01:18 PM
I love what Paul Kruger has to offer. If he wasn't an older prospect he would have been getting much more attention.