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View Full Version : Robert Ayers- a top 10 pick?


49ersfan_87
03-15-2009, 07:51 PM
According to a mock draft by Michael Lombardi, a former NFL GM..

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/2009/03/lombardis-top-ten-mock-draft/

Robert Ayers was the 10th selection for the 49ers. Now normally if its a mock draft i dont put a whole lot of stock into it or anything but...Lombardi is actually a former GM. He definitely has some credence.
Do you see Ayers as a top 10 selection? Has he climbed that high? And if so, would it be a wise choice?

I KNOW IT ALL
03-15-2009, 07:57 PM
This guy also has Maybin in the Top 10. I can see both Maybin and Ayers as mid-1st round picks but I'm not sure I can see either cracking the top 10 unless they do something spectacular at their pro days.

BeerBaron
03-15-2009, 07:57 PM
Thats most likely why he's a former GM....

It's one thing when a guy who underachieved in college raises his stock up from undrafted to late round pick with great workouts. Or even when a borderline guy goes one round sooner.

But seriously, Ayers going from mid round pick to top 10 pick seems a little absurd. I wouldn't even want him at 18 and DE is still a top need for the Bears.

TACKLE
03-15-2009, 08:00 PM
Top 10 - Probably not.
Top 20 - A definite possibility.

thetedginnshow
03-15-2009, 08:02 PM
I can see him going to the Bills, so I don't think it that's big of a stretch. A lot of those analysts have him as a top 15 prospect and I think Mayock has him as his top DE so I think this is very realistic.

superpack84
03-15-2009, 08:06 PM
Thats most likely why he's a former GM....

It's one thing when a guy who underachieved in college raises his stock up from undrafted to late round pick with great workouts. Or even when a borderline guy goes one round sooner.

But seriously, Ayers going from mid round pick to top 10 pick seems a little absurd. I wouldn't even want him at 18 and DE is still a top need for the Bears.

There are folks out there that are really falling in love with workouts why too much IMO.

Smokey Joe
03-15-2009, 08:08 PM
In my mock, I have him going no. 11 to the Bills, so I obviously see it as a possibility.

The guy has impressed Scouts and has raised his stock tremendously, and he did it without huge numbers at the combine but with domination at the senior bowl.

Texas Homer
03-15-2009, 08:10 PM
Top 20, but I don't think top 10.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 08:24 PM
He had three sacks his senior year! Michael Johnson had more sacks this year than Ayers did in his last three years at school. I still haven't heard from anyone who was the last college 4-3 DE with three or less sacks to be drafted in the first round, let alone the top 10. Completely absurd.

BRAVEHEART
03-15-2009, 08:34 PM
I'm a big fan of him, but would'nt touch him until the start of round two. I would'nt be surprised if shows he's worthy of a top 10 selection in a couple of years, but based off what he did in college, a first round pick in general is quite generous.

Matthew Jones
03-15-2009, 08:46 PM
I have him going #28 in my last mock to Philadelphia, because he fits in pretty well there, but even then I thought I was being generous with his draft position. I'd rather miss out on the guy if I'm a team picking in the teens than reach by about a round on where his value is.

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 09:36 PM
He had three sacks his senior year! Michael Johnson had more sacks this year than Ayers did in his last three years at school. I still haven't heard from anyone who was the last college 4-3 DE with three or less sacks to be drafted in the first round, let alone the top 10. Completely absurd.

There's a little more that factors in to a prospects eventual draft placement than sack numbers. Why aren't you arguing for David Veikune to be drafted ahead of Michael Johnson then if you want to make career sacks your main criteria for a DE to be drafted in the 1st round? Someone did answer your question in the other thread as well. It was Kentwan Balmer just last year.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-15-2009, 09:40 PM
There's a little more that factors in to a prospects eventual draft placement than sack numbers. Why aren't you arguing for David Veikune to be drafted ahead of Michael Johnson then if you want to make career sacks your main criteria for a DE to be drafted in the 1st round? Someone did answer your question in the other thread as well. It was Kentwan Balmer just last year.

Didn't Balmer play DT in college?

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 09:47 PM
Didn't Balmer play DT in college?

But he was drafted to play DE for the 49ers. It's a technicality but then again, Ayers might not even play DE for whoever drafts him.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 09:48 PM
There's a little more that factors in to a prospects eventual draft placement than sack numbers. Why aren't you arguing for David Veikune to be drafted ahead of Michael Johnson then if you want to make career sacks your main criteria for a DE to be drafted in the 1st round? Someone did answer your question in the other thread as well. It was Kentwan Balmer just last year.

Balmer wasn't a 4-3 DE in college.

Career sacks obviously isn't my only criteria. However, production is important and when you are talking about someone being a top ten pick while never having more than 4 sacks in a year in college I can't help but laugh. No one can name the last DE who was drafted in round 1 who had 3 sacks or less (and played the full season, and was a real 4-3 DE) because it doesn't happen.

jnew76
03-15-2009, 09:53 PM
defensive ends are always over-drafted. Especially ones that can play the strong side and play the run as well as Ayers. I have Ayers going #12 in my current mock, and I have considered having him go higher, but I like him to the Broncos at this point.

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:04 PM
Balmer wasn't a 4-3 DE in college.

Career sacks obviously isn't my only criteria. However, production is important and when you are talking about someone being a top ten pick while never having more than 4 sacks in a year in college I can't help but laugh. No one can name the last DE who was drafted in round 1 who had 3 sacks or less (and played the full season, and was a real 4-3 DE) because it doesn't happen.

So because it's never happened before means it can't ever happen? It's all about supply and demand. There's little supply for 4-3 ends in this class and a huge demand. In most other years he'd probably be a 2nd or maybe even 3rd rounder. Just a right place at the right time kind of situation. Not to mention his versatility, run stopping ability and other various factors that make up for lack of sacks.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 10:10 PM
So because it's never happened before means it can't ever happen?

I forgot draft history is completely meaningless. *rolls eyes*

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:12 PM
I forgot draft history is completely meaningless. *rolls eyes*

It's not meaningless but you can't use it as a complete barometer for how things will happen this year.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-15-2009, 10:13 PM
So because it's never happened before means it can't ever happen? It's all about supply and demand. There's little supply for 4-3 ends in this class and a huge demand. In most other years he'd probably be a 2nd or maybe even 3rd rounder. Just a right place at the right time kind of situation. Not to mention his versatility, run stopping ability and other various factors that make up for lack of sacks.

Teams don't value 4-3 defensive ends who aren't elite pass rushers at the top of the 1st round. Pass-rush ability is why these guys are so highly valued.

Like I said, I could see Ayers in the mid-first if everything plays out favourably for him but that's about his ceiling if you ask me.

Brent
03-15-2009, 10:13 PM
But he was drafted to play DE for the 49ers. It's a technicality but then again, Ayers might not even play DE for whoever drafts him.
Yes. Balmer was drafted to be a 3-4 DE after playing 4-3 DT in college. He isnt expected to get sacks. There are many in the Niners organization, according to the beat writers, who think Ayers can be an effective 3-4 OLB.

jnew76
03-15-2009, 10:15 PM
Balmer wasn't a 4-3 DE in college.

Career sacks obviously isn't my only criteria. However, production is important and when you are talking about someone being a top ten pick while never having more than 4 sacks in a year in college I can't help but laugh. No one can name the last DE who was drafted in round 1 who had 3 sacks or less (and played the full season, and was a real 4-3 DE) because it doesn't happen.

Ayers is a 3-down strong side defensive end in a 4-3... Do you understand the difference between his position and a pass-rushing DE? Ayers can come in and play every down immediately. He also shows the ability to develop as a pass rusher.

Tyson Jackson from LSU had 3.5 sacks this year and he is considered a top 15 prospect by most draft pundits.

Brent
03-15-2009, 10:22 PM
Tyson Jackson from LSU had 3.5 sacks this year and he is considered a top 15 prospect by most draft pundits.
Yeah, as a 3-4 DE or 4-3 DT. Neither position would require that he net a lot of sacks.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 10:24 PM
It's not meaningless but you can't use it as a complete barometer for how things will happen this year.

You can't use trends to evaluate everything, but I have yet to come across anyone on any message board that can name me my example. I think that's a strong enough trend for me to ride. Just because he's at a position that some teams need help at doesn't make him any better. If 4-3 teams are drafting a DE in round 1, he's going to be a guy who gets pressure on the QB.

RaiderNation
03-15-2009, 10:24 PM
Late 1st to mid 2nd

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:24 PM
Teams don't value 4-3 defensive ends who aren't elite pass rushers at the top of the 1st round. Pass-rush ability is why these guys are so highly valued.

Like I said, I could see Ayers in the mid-first if everything plays out favourably for him but that's about his ceiling if you ask me.

I don't agree with Ayers being a top 10 pick. I'm mainly disagreeing with Cicero saying that just because he only had 3 sacks and no one can name the last time a DE with that few sacks went first round means he shouldn't be a first round pick. I disagree with that aspect.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 10:26 PM
Ayers is a 3-down strong side defensive end in a 4-3... Do you understand the difference between his position and a pass-rushing DE? Ayers can come in and play every down immediately. He also shows the ability to develop as a pass rusher.

Tyson Jackson from LSU had 3.5 sacks this year and he is considered a top 15 prospect by most draft pundits.

Once again, 3-4 DE is definitely not the same as 4-3 DE. He sure developed a lot of that pass rush his four years at Tennessee too.

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:27 PM
You can't use trends to evaluate everything, but I have yet to come across anyone on any message board that can name me my example. I think that's a strong enough trend for me to ride. Just because he's at a position that some teams need help at doesn't make him any better. If 4-3 teams are drafting a DE in round 1, he's going to be a guy who gets pressure on the QB.

But there's more to playing DE than just sacks. Do you see that that's where I disagree with you? QB hurries, run stopping, disrupting plays in the backfield, dropping back in coverage when asked, versatility to play multiple positions. You say history is on your side, but I guarantee Robert Ayers goes in the first round. Lock it up.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 10:32 PM
But there's more to playing DE than just sacks. Do you see that that's where I disagree with you? QB hurries, run stopping, disrupting plays in the backfield, dropping back in coverage when asked, versatility to play multiple positions. You say history is on your side, but I guarantee Robert Ayers goes in the first round. Lock it up.

I see what you are saying, but sorry I'm not spending a first round pick on a DE who wasn't able to prove he was an effective pass rusher in college. Not even for one season.

phlysac
03-15-2009, 10:36 PM
What we think doesn't matter. All that matters is what the commulative minds of a teams scouting group and GM decide. Scouts are privy to alot more tape than we can imagine as well as seeing a players coachability, etc. The one thing that I, as only a fan, not a trained scout, was able to see was this...

Robert Ayers dominated guys at the Senior Bowl that the guys we "assume" are better than him weren't able to dominate.

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:37 PM
I see what you are saying, but sorry I'm not spending a first round pick on a DE who wasn't able to prove he was an effective pass rusher in college. Not even for one season.

That's the thing. You're not scouting or management so it's all good. There's a reason why he's consistently moved up draft boards this entire season and post season. I watched every game of his this year, and let me tell you. On an excellent defense with many very good players he stood out to me all the time even though he wasn't getting many sacks. He sure as hell gave Andre Smith fits as well. Even some of the other top guys at the Senior Bowl. There are many reasons he didn't produce as greatly as other DE's. Mainly because of the system at UT. He was in a position where he wasn't going to get the opportunity to start until his senior year, and secondly the Vols played a defensive scheme where most of the rush came from the middle with the tackles and linebackers. Not to mention he split a good amount of time rotating plays with former 5 star DE's waiting in the wings.

TACKLE
03-15-2009, 10:39 PM
Cicero, please watch him play before you make snap judgments based only on statistics.

PAR9Qb3liRs

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jnew76
03-15-2009, 10:39 PM
Once again, 3-4 DE is definitely not the same as 4-3 DE. He sure developed a lot of that pass rush his four years at Tennessee too.

LSU doesn't play a 3-4.

And I think the legitemate answer to your other question is Shaun Ellis of the Jets, although I cannot confirm the # of sacks he had as a Senior.

I KNOW IT ALL
03-15-2009, 10:46 PM
That's the thing. You're not scouting or management so it's all good. There's a reason why he's consistently moved up draft boards this entire season and post season. I watched every game of his this year, and let me tell you. On an excellent defense with many very good players he stood out to me all the time even though he wasn't getting many sacks. He sure as hell gave Andre Smith fits as well. Even some of the other top guys at the Senior Bowl. There are many reasons he didn't produce as greatly as other DE's. Mainly because of the system at UT. He was in a position where he wasn't going to get the opportunity to start until his senior year, and secondly the Vols played a defensive scheme where most of the rush came from the middle with the tackles and linebackers. Not to mention he split a good amount of time rotating plays with former 5 star DE's waiting in the wings.

How do you know if he's moved up teams' draft boards, and not just draft analysts' boards? Just like we aren't real scouts, draft analysts aren't either. They might think Ayers is a top 15 pick but unless a team also believes that, he won't go that high.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 10:47 PM
That's the thing. You're not scouting or management so it's all good. There's a reason why he's consistently moved up draft boards this entire season and post season. I watched every game of his this year, and let me tell you. On an excellent defense with many very good players he stood out to me all the time even though he wasn't getting many sacks. He sure as hell gave Andre Smith fits as well. Even some of the other top guys at the Senior Bowl. There are many reasons he didn't produce as greatly as other DE's. Mainly because of the system at UT. He was in a position where he wasn't going to get the opportunity to start until his senior year, and secondly the Vols played a defensive scheme where most of the rush came from the middle with the tackles and linebackers. Not to mention he split a good amount of time rotating plays with former 5 star DE's waiting in the wings.
And with all of that talent around him, Ayers was only able to get three sacks. There are plenty of situations where you ask your front four to generate pressure while dropping everyone else in coverage. Not only that, but regardless of where you blitz from, your top DE who is supposed to be a first round talent should finish the year with more than 3 sacks.

But this is why we have the draft. I will certainly eat my crow if he turns out to be a good pass rushing DE and a stud in the NFL.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 10:48 PM
LSU doesn't play a 3-4.

And I think the legitemate answer to your other question is Shaun Ellis of the Jets, although I cannot confirm the # of sacks he had as a Senior.

He's going to be drafted to play 3-4 DE. I doubt he would be a first round pick as a 4-3 DE.

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:51 PM
How do you know if he's moved up teams' draft boards, and not just draft analysts' boards? Just like we aren't real scouts, draft analysts aren't either. They might think Ayers is a top 15 pick but unless a team also believes that, he won't go that high.

Because more often than not they kind of go hand in hand. When former scouts and analysts are raving about a guy then more likely than not so are front offices. Not to mention, former scouts and even analysts have inside information with teams and their front offices. Look at Jerod Mayo last year. He was a pretty late but fast riser among analysts and former scouts and such and he got taken top 10 in the end.

phlysac
03-15-2009, 10:52 PM
He's going to be drafted to play 3-4 DE. I doubt he would be a first round pick as a 4-3 DE.

If he's drafted highly by a 3-4 team, it will be to play OLB.

That's what I like most about his game that translates to a 3-4. His abilities to "stack the edge" is SIGNIFICANTLY more impressive then any of the other 3-4 OLB prospects.

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:54 PM
And with all of that talent around him, Ayers was only able to get three sacks. There are plenty of situations where you ask your front four to generate pressure while dropping everyone else in coverage. Not only that, but regardless of where you blitz from, your top DE who is supposed to be a first round talent should finish the year with more than 3 sacks.

But this is why we have the draft. I will certainly eat my crow if he turns out to be a good pass rushing DE and a stud in the NFL.

Ayers got plenty of pressure. You just assume sacks=pressure. Watch his highlights and such. There's a reason he's being considered as a 3-4 OLB as well.

CashmoneyDrew
03-15-2009, 10:54 PM
If he's drafted highly by a 3-4 team, it will be to play OLB.

He's talking about Tyson Jackson, not Robert Ayers.

619
03-15-2009, 10:55 PM
If he's drafted highly by a 3-4 team, it will be to play OLB.

I think he was referring to Tyson Jackson, not sure.

jnew76
03-15-2009, 10:56 PM
He's going to be drafted to play 3-4 DE. I doubt he would be a first round pick as a 4-3 DE.

You asked when the last time a DE that had as little as 3 sacks in a year was drafted in the 1rst round... I give you a DE with 3.5 sacks as a senior, plays in a 4-3, and is considered a top 20 prospect and now you change the criteria? WTF??? Just go on not liking Ayers and spare us the topics that you don't really want opinions on that you don't agree with. You have already made up your mind, so go with it.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 11:03 PM
You asked when the last time a DE that had as little as 3 sacks in a year was drafted in the 1rst round... I give you a DE with 3.5 sacks as a senior, plays in a 4-3, and is considered a top 20 prospect and now you change the criteria? WTF??? Just go on not liking Ayers and spare us the topics that you don't really want opinions on that you don't agree with. You have already made up your mind, so go with it.
My opinion on Ayers is set in stone just like yours is. I think it would be foolish for a 4-3 team to use a pick a DE who doesn't get pressure on the QB. I know I'm not the only one with that opinion.

If he's drafted highly by a 3-4 team, it will be to play OLB.

That's what I like most about his game that translates to a 3-4. His abilities to "stack the edge" is SIGNIFICANTLY more impressive then any of the other 3-4 OLB prospects.

No no I meant Tyson Jackson. Ayers won't be a 3-4 DE.

jnew76
03-15-2009, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE=Cicero;1548669]My opinion on Ayers is set in stone just like yours is. I think it would be foolish for a 4-3 team to use a pick a DE who doesn't get pressure on the QB. I know I'm not the only one with that opinion.
QUOTE]

Scott Wright has Tyson Jackson going to the Washington Redskins at pick 13 in the first round of his mock. I did not realize that the Redskins were switching to a 3-4 defensive scheme? Because they aren't! He has him being drafted as a LDE in a 4-3.

Obviously you know something that the rest of us don't. I feel so much smarter listening to your infinite wisdom with regards to the value and skillset needed to play LDE or Strongside DE in a 4-3.

Cicero
03-15-2009, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE=Cicero;1548669]My opinion on Ayers is set in stone just like yours is. I think it would be foolish for a 4-3 team to use a pick a DE who doesn't get pressure on the QB. I know I'm not the only one with that opinion.
QUOTE]

Scott Wright has Tyson Jackson going to the Washington Redskins at pick 13 in the first round of his mock. I did not realize that the Redskins were switching to a 3-4 defensive scheme? Because they aren't! He has him being drafted as a LDE in a 4-3.

Obviously you know something that the rest of us don't. I feel so much smarter listening to your infinite wisdom with regards to the value and skillset needed to play LDE or Strongside DE in a 4-3.
Ya, and I don't agree with Scott there. Jackson doesn't do much to help the skins pass rush. Scott himself said he's an average pass rusher.

Woody56
03-16-2009, 03:36 AM
LSU doesn't play a 3-4.

And I think the legitemate answer to your other question is Shaun Ellis of the Jets, although I cannot confirm the # of sacks he had as a Senior.

Ellis had 8.5 sacks his senior year

oldman9er
03-16-2009, 10:18 AM
Not that it means everything ( sacks don't either ), but look at the stats. In the last 2 seasons, Ayers had 27.5 TFL compared to Orakpo's 28 TFL. The guy gets disruptive in the backfield. Is he a top 10 pick to me? No... though I suspect he will play like a top 10 soon enough. I wouldn't see anything wrong with a team selecting him a little later though.

draftguru151
03-16-2009, 10:26 AM
I really liked Ayers but the hype is getting too much. He's had a great off season and had a damn good game against Alabama (didn't see much of him other than that game) but top 10 is too much. He's a great run defender and a good pass rusher, but not top 10 worthy. I really don't get the OLB talk either, I know teams have shown interest there, I think he's worth a mid 2nd there at best, while he's a late first value as a 4-3 DE.

oldman9er
03-16-2009, 10:37 AM
I don't know... He's basically the same size as Shawn Merriman and Adalius Thomas. I don't see a strong reason to dismiss him from 3-4 OLB possibilities. He actually did stand up some at Tennessee, and shows enough athleticism and short-area burst to handle the role. A few weeks ago, I had SF selecting him at #43. I think that's probably the right area for him, considering the depth at DE/OLB this year. Some teams may get dazzled enough by him to take a chance earlier though.

Saints-Tigers
03-16-2009, 10:46 AM
I just think it's hypocritical to not factor in his production when that is all people can cling to for Michael Johnson, and how much he is downgraded.

Brent
03-16-2009, 11:12 AM
I really don't get the OLB talk either, I know teams have shown interest there, I think he's worth a mid 2nd there at best
Because teams overvalue guys that can pass rush well. And since 3-4 is the big trend now, every team wants their own Ware/Merriman. Every 3-4 defense needs a dominant OLB who just rushes the QB.

ElectricEye
03-16-2009, 11:22 AM
A top ten pick? Hold on there. The guy is a one year wonder who really came into the spotlight in the offseason. I really, really like the guy and he's helped himself a whole lot, but that's pushing it. I could see him going end of the first/early second, but that's a bit optimistic even. He's coming on strong late in the process but the other stages of it can't be ignored.

CashmoneyDrew
03-16-2009, 11:46 AM
A top ten pick? Hold on there. The guy is a one year wonder who really came into the spotlight in the offseason. I really, really like the guy and he's helped himself a whole lot, but that's pushing it. I could see him going end of the first/early second, but that's a bit optimistic even. He's coming on strong late in the process but the other stages of it can't be ignored.

He's not necessarily a one year wonder. It's just his first year as a starter because he was behind a couple of seniors, and Phil Fulmer prefers upper classmen most of the time. He had a pretty good year as a backup as a junior as well.

ElectricEye
03-16-2009, 11:52 AM
He's not necessarily a one year wonder. It's just his first year as a starter because he was behind a couple of seniors, and Phil Fulmer prefers upper classmen most of the time. He had a pretty good year as a backup as a junior as well.

Even with that said I'm weary. I saw this guy blow by Michael Oher a few times. I'm a believer for sure. But he has some questions he won't be able to answer until he plays for a few years.

draftguru151
03-16-2009, 12:40 PM
Because teams overvalue guys that can pass rush well. And since 3-4 is the big trend now, every team wants their own Ware/Merriman. Every 3-4 defense needs a dominant OLB who just rushes the QB.

That doesn't really address why Ayers is looked at in that position though.

I'm not dismissing the idea entirely, I just a see a good amount of guys I'd rather have at 3-4 OLB while Ayers is one of the top 4-3 DEs. At 43, I understand the 49ers looking at him, but at 10 I think that's kind of insane.

SenorGato
03-16-2009, 01:47 PM
I could see him being a Calvin Pace/Mike Vrabel-esque 3-4 OLBer...both guys excel/excelled at stacking the edge, and I agree that Ayers does that very well.

Hell no to being a top 10 pick.

bernbabybern820
03-16-2009, 06:00 PM
Lombardi doesn't even have Crabtree going in the top 10.

Cicero
03-17-2009, 09:46 PM
Wow, Mayock thinks he's one of the 5 best players in the draft.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d80d41b6d&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

Brent
03-17-2009, 09:47 PM
That doesn't really address why Ayers is looked at in that position though.
I was implying that if teams were looking at him as a possible 3-4 OLB, that he could go higher than he should because of the premium on the position.

bored of education
03-17-2009, 10:12 PM
Holy ****. Mayock has lost it.

ElectricEye
03-17-2009, 10:29 PM
This guy can play but he's not a top five player in the draft talent wise, let alone production wise. People aren't going to be getting quite what they expected out of Ayers if they draft him that high.

Brent
03-17-2009, 10:37 PM
Holy ****. Mayock has lost it.
I am shocked he put him at the #1 DE.

ElectricEye
03-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Mayock seems to be getting a little crazy lately. He's tends to be early on some stuff that ends up actually happening though. However, that one I just don't see.

TACKLE
03-17-2009, 10:41 PM
Holy ****. Mayock has lost it.

I love Mayock. No football analyst anywhere is as dedicated and knowledgeable as he is. He is more consistently right about prospects than any one else on TV. But c'mon Mike! Top 5? For Real?!?!?

CashmoneyDrew
03-17-2009, 10:42 PM
I'd just like to point out that Mike Mayock is a cake eater. Me and TitanHope were the first on the Robert Ayers bandwagon around late September to mid-October. That guy can't hold our jocks. And Robert Ayers owes us a portion of his signing bonus for getting his hype train rolling this fast. :D

ElectricEye
03-17-2009, 10:44 PM
I'd just like to point out that Mike Mayock is a cake eater. Me and TitanHope were the first on the Robert Ayers bandwagon around late September to mid-October. That guy can't hold our jocks. And Robert Ayers owes us a portion of his signing bonus for getting his hype train rolling this fast. :D

Do you really think he'll play like you would want a top five player in the draft to play? Or even a top ten player?

CashmoneyDrew
03-17-2009, 10:49 PM
Do you really think he'll play like you would want a top five player in the draft to play? Or even a top ten player?

I never said he should be a top 5 or 10 pick. I just said he should be a first or second rounder in this weak class. This was when he was barely a blip on anyone's radar.

ElectricEye
03-17-2009, 10:51 PM
I never said he should be a top 5 or 10 pick. I just said he should be a first or second rounder in this weak class. This was when he was barely a blip on anyone's radar.

Ok, good. I was just checking. I agree with you about him being a first or second rounder but I don't really get why people think he's a top five or ten player. Top 40 or even 30 for sure, but people are getting a little carried away. I would love to have someone explain with reasons other than his stock is rising.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
03-18-2009, 12:12 AM
Anyone who has Ayers rated above Michael Johnson as a 4-3 DE, or 3-4 OLB for that matter is on crack!!

It's funny how much hate Johnson gets because of so called "limited" production in college and inconsistent effort, yet a guy like Ayers who so obviously underperformed at Tennessee is now viewed by some as an elite talent.

Let me get this straight, some of you look at Ayers and see a Pro Bowl talent?
Roll that around in you mouth for a sec, now spit.

Ayer= way overrated

TACKLE
03-18-2009, 11:38 AM
Anyone who has Ayers rated above Michael Johnson as a 4-3 DE, or 3-4 OLB for that matter is on crack!!

It's funny how much hate Johnson gets because of so called "limited" production in college and inconsistent effort, yet a guy like Ayers who so obviously underperformed at Tennessee is now viewed by some as an elite talent.

Let me get this straight, some of you look at Ayers and see a Pro Bowl talent?
Roll that around in you mouth for a sec, now spit.

Ayer= way overrated

Again, make sure you watch Ayers before you make a strong judgement on him. No DE in the draft plays better against the run. He is a disruptive force in the backfield. Although his sack numbers aren't impressive, he showed at the Senior Bowl his pass rushing ability. At Tennessee, there were several times when he wouldn't get the sack but he made the play. I don't know how you can say he underperformed. Physically he is not anything really special. 6'3 270, 4.8-4.7 DE's come around all the time. Ayers is a high motor who's been able to maximize his ability. Now in no way am I saying that he's an Top 5-10 player in this draft, but to say "Anyone who has Ayers rated above Michael Johnson as a 4-3 DE, or 3-4 OLB for that matter is on crack!" is just an ignorant statement.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
03-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Re-read the title of the original thread, TACKLE.

IF Michael Johnson is in no way considered a top 10 pick, how then can one legitimately make the argument that Ayers is?

Except for Ayers "motor", both prospects have similar negatives, limited production, didn't start for more than one year.

Of the two, Michael Johnson was much more productive throughout his career on the field in terms of making plays beyond pure sack totals.

And who cares how much a player is able to maximize his ability in college?
Usually what that implies is that a player has a limited upside as a pro and shouldn't be drafted high.
Who do you know that believes Michael Johnson has maximized his unlimited "ability"? Yet am I to believe you'd still take Ayers of Johnson?

Yeah right.

Go sell crazy somewhere else, TACKLE.

Ayers is a post-season high riser who did little to distinguish himself on the field. He's a mid round pick who probably will be overdrafted in the top 50 picks.
The guy was virtually invisible against teams like UCLA, and his highlight reel on youtube is a farce.

DEs aren't drafted in the first round because of how well they play the run.
That's like drafting a RB in the 1st because of how well they block in pass pro.
Hopefully a top flight DE prospect can rush the passer/defend the run with equal proficiency, but for the most part teams are looking for a 1st round DE who can get to the passer foremost.

metafour
03-18-2009, 03:47 PM
A lot of NFL scouts in this thread.

DiG
03-18-2009, 04:12 PM
the difference between ayers and johnson is that ayers isnt expected to be a pass rush specialists whereas johnson is. johnson is absolutely horrid against the run wheras ayers is one of the best run stopping defensive ends in the draft. everyone seems to rate their des on number of sacks nowadays but dont take into consideration strengths in the run game as well as the difference between getting at the qb in college and actually being able to get to the qb at the pro level. i think johnsons height and lack of upper body strength is going to cause him to get locked up easily at the pro level by big ots. ayers might not be a 15 sack/year guy but looks like a guy thats going to be stout against the run, get into the backfield, and has the potential to get some decent sack numbers on the right line with the right team. im not saying ayers is top 10 because i dont think that he is but im taking him over MJ any day.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
03-18-2009, 08:00 PM
Um, somewhat off-topic, but how does someone make three posts in a 24 hour period and see their rep drop -64 points??!!

Is this attributable to "normal" forum member activity or mod retribution?

Just asking...

Malaka
03-18-2009, 08:02 PM
Um, somewhat off-topic, but how does someone make three posts in a 24 hour period and see their rep drop -64 points??!!

Is this attributable to "normal" forum member activity or mod retribution?

Just asking...

stupid remarks... like this one ^^^....

619
03-18-2009, 08:05 PM
Um, somewhat off-topic, but how does someone make three posts in a 24 hour period and see their rep drop -64 points??!!

Is this attributable to "normal" forum member activity or mod retribution?

Just asking...

You must've upset Sniper.

Hint: He's not a real big fan of Derrick Williams

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
03-18-2009, 08:23 PM
Hm, TACKLE calls me ignorant, or rather, refers to my opinion about Ayers versus Michael Johnson as an "ignorant statement", I respond in kind, my rep drops through the toilet in less than a day, (nothing vindictive or petty about that!), I then ask what's the beef, and now I get another ad hominem attack from Malaka.

Seems to me there's a few neg reps that need to be spread around on this forum.

To Malaka, TACKLE, etc, a good rule of thumb to follow moving forward:

If you dislike it so much when people defend their opinions, try to refrain from calling them names and always remember to attack the message, not the messenger.

Discourse in cyberspace works so much easier that way...

Malaka
03-18-2009, 08:28 PM
Nah I don't dislike your opinions...

I just think your a ***** bitching about little rep...

Damn I wonder how you'd feel if you got rep raped... I lost like 400+ rep in 10 min, and I couldn't give a flying ****...

Thumper
03-18-2009, 08:38 PM
Hm, TACKLE calls me ignorant, or rather, refers to my opinion about Ayers versus Michael Johnson as an "ignorant statement", I respond in kind, my rep drops through the toilet in less than a day, (nothing vindictive or petty about that!), I then ask what's the beef, and now I get another ad hominem attack from Malaka.

Seems to me there's a few neg reps that need to be spread around on this forum.

To Malaka, TACKLE, etc, a good rule of thumb to follow moving forward:

If you dislike it so much when people defend their opinions, try to refrain from calling them names and always remember to attack the message, not the messenger.

Discourse in cyberspace works so much easier that way...


You would have been better off saying that you want neg rep. That was dumb. Don't whine about rep or you'll get rep raped.

parrish_lemar24DBSkins
03-18-2009, 08:46 PM
Nope, I'm far from bitching, ( then you really wouldn't like me!!)

Just curious where the heads are of the 'powers that be' on this forum.

Seems a little moody and temperamental for a bunch of guys engaged in a discussion about the ultimate MAN's game.

What'd you call it, rep raped, Malaka?? Odd choice of words there.

I dunno, but it sounds like took it a tiny bit personal.

Whatever, I didn't sign up here to earn rep, I came here to discuss football.
I'll leave it at that.

Peace

Menardo75
03-18-2009, 09:06 PM
I don't think he is a top ten pick. Mid first rounder to late very possible. The fact that Lombardi is a former GM makes me listen to him a little more, but there is a reason why he isn't a GM anymore. Charlie Chasserly was also a former GM and we saw him put the Redskins and Texans into a hole.

Looking at Ayers as a player the fact that he is a one year wonder is really risky. He is a very good pass rusher, and a solid all around defensive end. I really don't think he is going to have the impact though that a top ten pick should have on the football field.