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PuppyPuncher
03-26-2009, 11:44 PM
In the NFL, hope plays an important role. The top 10 teams hope to win the Super Bowl and the bottom 10 teams hope to make the playoffs. It’s no surprise that Kansas City fans and media were feeling pretty good about their 2-14 team after turning the hopeless duo of Carl Peterson and Herman Edwards into Scott Pioli and Todd Haley. Why? Because it’s Scott Pioli, the mastermind behind three Super Bowl teams, a great eye for talent in draft and free agency with consecutive “Executive Of The Year Awards” from 2003-2004 to boot. So let’s take a look at what his impact on the Chiefs has been so far and what KC fans should expect from his drafts.



The Chiefs have switched to a 3-4 defense:


This is an odd decision when you consider that a lot of personnel doesn’t the 3-4. Why are the talents of the best three technique prospect since Warren Sapp being wasted at nose tackle or five technique? Tamba Hali at outside linebacker? Yuck. How badly will Brandon Flowers get burned playing press man coverage? Sometimes we get too excited about the potential deceptiveness of a 3-4 pass rush and forget that 4-3 teams like the Colts and Bengals have made their pass rush unique and deceptive too.


Traded 34th pick for Matt Cassel and Mike Vrabel:



I’ve never been a fan of Cassel. I feel like he’s a spread system QB that wasn’t needed since they already had one of those in Tyler Thigpen. Maybe I’m wrong, but let us see what he can do without Welker and Moss. Not much needs to be said about Vrabel. He’s a bad contract that couldn’t get many sacks in the linebacker friendly defense of the Patriots.


Signed guys like Bobby Engram and Mike Goff while pissing off Brian Waters:


These are stop gap guys, but at least they can start. On the other hand, Brian Waters is an all-pro and might be the best left guard in the NFL.

Now look at some Patriot Drafts:

2005
1/32 – Logan Mankins, Guard
3/84 – Ellis Hobbs, Cornerback
3/100 – Nick Kaczur, Right Tackle
4/133 – James Sanders, Safety
5/170 – Ryan Calridge, Outside Linebacker
7/230 – Matt Cassel, Quarterback
7/255 – Andy Stokes, Tight End
Most analysts will agree that getting 3 starters out of a draft class is considered good, with anything more being great. Keep that in mind as you look at these classes. Logan Mankins has worked out great. Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur and James Sanders are solid contributors even though each could be upgraded this year. Matt Cassel is an incredible pick when you consider that they turned the 230th pick into the 34th. I just wonder why it had to be Pioli’s 34th?

2006
1/21 – Laurence Maroney, Running Back
2/36 – Chad Jackson, Wide Receiver
3/86 – David Thomas, Tight End
4/106 – Garrett Mills, Fullback
4/188 – Stephen Gostkowski, Kicker
5/136 – Ryan O’Callaghan, Tackle
6/191 – Jeremy Mincey, Linebacker
6/205 – Dan Stevenson, Guard
6/206 – LeKevin Smith, Defensive Linemen
7/229 – Willie Andrews, Cornerback

I think we can officially call Laurence Maroney a bust. He’s oft-injured and a ballerina in the backfield. We know Chad Jackson is a bust because he got kicked to the curb last training camp. Stephen Gostkowski, a kicker, is the only solid contributor.

2007
1/24 – Brandon Meriweather, Safety
4/127 – Kareem Brown, Defensive End
5/171 – Clint Oldenburg, Tackle
6/180 – Justin Rogers, Linebacker
6/202 – Mike Richardson, Cornerback
6/208 – Justise Hairston, Running Back
6/209 – Corey Hilliard, Tackle
7/211 – Oscar Lua, LB
7/247 – Mike Elgin, Guard/Center

Brandon Meriweather hasn’t shown up as the Top-15 talent with character problems that he was billed as back in 2007. The four interceptions can give Pat fans hope though. Patriots have gotten nothing other than that though. They did get Wes Welker and Randy Moss from this draft though.

2008
1/10 – Jerod Mayo, Linebacker
2/62 – Terrence Wheatley, Cornerback
3/78 – Shawn Crable, Linebacker
3/94 – Kevin O’Connell, Quarterback
4/129 – Jonathan Wilhite, Cornerback
5/153 – Matthew Slater, Wide Receiver
6/197 – Bo Ruud, Linebacker

Winning the Defensive Rookie Of The Year makes Jerod Mayo’s future look promising. He is a little overrated because his skills at shedding blocks are below average. I don’t think we should expect much out of the rest of these picks because they were all reaches. Terrence Wheatley was an especially confounding pick.

All in all, Scott Pioli has made some questionable decisions so far and his recent drafts have proven to be lackluster. Scott Pioli might not be the right guy to turn this team around. But at least Kansas City fans can still hope.

Calvin & Kevin
03-26-2009, 11:49 PM
Of course he's overrated, simply because he's considered some incredible super genius who is head and shoulders above all other NFL execs.

His success has a lot to do with a very good coaching staff and talented players with great leadership.

That's not to say he isn't a very good exec though. But no one is as good as Pioli's current rating.

RaiderNation
03-26-2009, 11:52 PM
All I can say is when hes been the GM this team has been very good

bearsfan_51
03-26-2009, 11:54 PM
Every single person in the history of the world will make, has made and will continue to make bad decisions. I don't mean to feign naivity here but I fail to see your point.

vidae
03-27-2009, 12:02 AM
We haven't for sure switched to a 3-4, but one would argue that, looking at our defensive stats from last year, we didn't have the personnel to run a 4-3 either.

I don't really get the point of this thread either. As a Chiefs fan replacing Peterson with Pioli was the best possible thing that could have ever happened to this organization. We've made some moves this offseason, which King Carl almost never did, and Pioli is shaking things up.

On Cassel, Vrabel, Engram and Goff: The last three will provide veteran leadership to a young team. Yes, they're stopgap players, but we do have some solid people on the team who could use a little coaching and time to develop (Rudy Niswanger (C), Barry Richardson (RT), Will Franklin (WR) etc) so these players can help mentor those younger guys. As for Cassel, I didn't like the move originally and I'm still kind of on the fence about it, but it's nice to have an above average QB for a change. As to wether or not he's GREAT or FRANCHISE, well, that hasn't been determined yet. I do love the fact he's making moves though.

Right now it's pretty sweet to be a Chiefs fan.

gpngc
03-27-2009, 12:04 AM
We haven't for sure switched to a 3-4, but one would argue that, looking at our defensive stats from last year, didn't have the personnel to run a 4-3 either.

LOL. True.

CC.SD
03-27-2009, 12:41 AM
I think you have to give him at least one season in KC before starting this thread.

nepg
03-27-2009, 07:29 AM
*They're not 100% switching to a 3-4 in 2009.

*Thigpen is a high school quarterback. The amount of adjustments Chan Gailey had to make for Thigpen to not fail horribly is insane. Thigpen wasn't allowed to throw the ball away. If his primary receiver wasn't open, he tucked it and ran or took a sack. Those were his instructions. Watch him prior to these adjustments, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Thigpen's not even close to the same world that Cassel's in. Thigpen can't read defenses, can't go through progressions, and just can't function in any kind of offense you can win a game in in the NFL. Cassel reads defenses, goes through progressions, makes adjustments, is one of the best prepared players in the NFL, and is a perfect fit for Haley's offense.

*Vrabel was never really a sack guy, he's more of a do-it-all utility LB. He had a couple seasons where he racked up some sacks, but that's really not his MO. The Pats had a ton of injuries at LB (OLB in particular) in 2008, so Vrabel had zero help on top of a hodge podge secondary.

*Waters put himself in that position. Goff and Engram are very good signings for any team. You're missing the point that Pioli is a free agent GM. He'll find low-cost free agents that have specific skills that fit what his coaches want to do, and buy into the team's winning philosophy. Signings like this and not catering to a disgruntled player are why the Patriots have 3 trophies.


2005
1/32 ? Logan Mankins, Guard
3/84 ? Ellis Hobbs, Cornerback
3/100 ? Nick Kaczur, Right Tackle
4/133 ? James Sanders, Safety
5/170 ? Ryan Calridge, Outside Linebacker
7/230 ? Matt Cassel, Quarterback
7/255 ? Andy Stokes, Tight End
Most analysts will agree that getting 3 starters out of a draft class is considered good, with anything more being great. Keep that in mind as you look at these classes. Logan Mankins has worked out great. Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur and James Sanders are solid contributors even though each could be upgraded this year. Matt Cassel is an incredible pick when you consider that they turned the 230th pick into the 34th. I just wonder why it had to be Pioli?s 34th?

You mean 5 starters?

2006
1/21 ? Laurence Maroney, Running Back
2/36 ? Chad Jackson, Wide Receiver
3/86 ? David Thomas, Tight End
4/106 ? Garrett Mills, Fullback
4/188 ? Stephen Gostkowski, Kicker
5/136 ? Ryan O?Callaghan, Tackle
6/191 ? Jeremy Mincey, Linebacker
6/205 ? Dan Stevenson, Guard
6/206 ? LeKevin Smith, Defensive Linemen
7/229 ? Willie Andrews, Cornerback

I think we can officially call Laurence Maroney a bust. He?s oft-injured and a ballerina in the backfield. We know Chad Jackson is a bust because he got kicked to the curb last training camp. Stephen Gostkowski, a kicker, is the only solid contributor.

You can't call a guy a bust when the reason for his lack of production is injuries. Ghost isn't a "solid contributor", he's ******* Pro Bowl kicker. And LeKevin Smith is emerging as a very good 3-4 DL.

2007
1/24 ? Brandon Meriweather, Safety
4/127 ? Kareem Brown, Defensive End
5/171 ? Clint Oldenburg, Tackle
6/180 ? Justin Rogers, Linebacker
6/202 ? Mike Richardson, Cornerback
6/208 ? Justise Hairston, Running Back
6/209 ? Corey Hilliard, Tackle
7/211 ? Oscar Lua, LB
7/247 ? Mike Elgin, Guard/Center

Brandon Meriweather hasn?t shown up as the Top-15 talent with character problems that he was billed as back in 2007. The four interceptions can give Pat fans hope though. Patriots have gotten nothing other than that though. They did get Wes Welker and Randy Moss from this draft though.

Brandon Meriweather was one of the better safeties in the NFL last year. He was easily the best defensive back on the team. You obviously have no clue. They didn't have any needs or room on their roster going into this draft, so they had to take a bunch of guys they hoped would stick on their practice squad and develop later.

2008
1/10 ? Jerod Mayo, Linebacker
2/62 ? Terrence Wheatley, Cornerback
3/78 ? Shawn Crable, Linebacker
3/94 ? Kevin O?Connell, Quarterback
4/129 ? Jonathan Wilhite, Cornerback
5/153 ? Matthew Slater, Wide Receiver
6/197 ? Bo Ruud, Linebacker

Winning the Defensive Rookie Of The Year makes Jerod Mayo?s future look promising. He is a little overrated because his skills at shedding blocks are below average. I don?t think we should expect much out of the rest of these picks because they were all reaches. Terrence Wheatley was an especially confounding pick.

2008 was a great draft. Mayo is going to be in the middle for the Pats for a long time. Crable was extremely promising before going to the IR. Kevin O'Connell was a highly thought-of QB prospect and is going to develop directly behind Tom Brady. Kid's going to basically go through the whole off-season preparing as the starting QB of the New England Patriots. He's going to develop quickly, and he showed a ton of potential. Wilhite turned out to be a great special teams player and is going to give incoming free agents and rookies a run for the #2 CB spot, and while I would have rather had Charles Godfrey with the Wheatley pick, Wheatley looked damn good prior to going to the IR.

And you're missing one of the biggest reasons for Pioli's success. He's a great player evaluator, but he's an even better staff evaluator. Look at the coaches and scouts he's brought in that have gone on to much bigger roles...
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Smooth Criminal
03-27-2009, 08:46 AM
Funny the coaches you mention go on to bigger roles, have all sucked at them.

nepg
03-27-2009, 09:08 AM
Funny the coaches you mention go on to bigger roles, have all sucked at them.

Mangini did a great job with the Jets, and Charlie Weis made Notre Dame relevant again. But I was more speaking of front office guys like Dimitroff.
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TNPatsFan
03-27-2009, 09:16 AM
if you're talking about maroney, his lack of production is because he sucks. the injuries are incidental.

You're right. Averaging 4.5 yards per carry does suck.

bored of education
03-27-2009, 09:20 AM
you really can't overrate 3 rings no matter who you think 'won' those rings. Yes age has taken its toll on the Patriots but they have one of the best winning %'s over the last 10 years. How much does that attribute to Pioli? 2%? 25%? 13? No one knows. But he did have a very important role in the Patriot Way.

And you can't say anything bad about what he has done for KC as of yet. They have sucked the last 2-3 years. He is bringing the philosophy from NE which helped him win 3 Super Bowls to a franchise that badly needed reconstruction.

nepg
03-27-2009, 09:23 AM
That's his job. He's a homerun hitter. Teams have to respect his speed when he's in the backfield, which makes the Pats' offense nearly unstoppable. That's why they drafted him. The Patriots always have a nice stable of backs that can all do specific jobs very well.
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TNPatsFan
03-27-2009, 09:28 AM
*yawn*

let me know when you've actually watched him *****-foot around the backfield and are going to do something other than quote lame stats and this might turn into an interesting discussion.

Oh boo-hoo. I have watched him and just because he doesn't run full steam straight ahead into the pile and gain 2 yards all the time you think he sucks. He produced when Josh "what-is-a-running-back" McDaniels gave him the chance. He's a cut-back runner and he does his job. He's the most talented running back on the Patriots by far. Sorry you can't recognize that just because you don't like his style.

bored of education
03-27-2009, 09:28 AM
He is a homerun hitter like Rob Deer was. 19 Homeruns, .212 average, .275 OBP, 200ks.

Thunder&Lightning
03-27-2009, 09:33 AM
Didnt know having 3 super bowl rings made you overrated... Would love to see what he would have done with the chiefs draft last year.

TNPatsFan
03-27-2009, 09:48 AM
and seriously, boo hoo? really? :rolleyes:

That was in response to your childish *yawn* comment. Sorry if that was too complicated for you. I guess when someone makes a valid point you have to resort to things like that instead of intelligent discussion. Hey it's your opinion, so you go with it.

As for me, when a guy runs for over 800 yards, has 4 out of 5 100 yard games, is playing behind a very overrated O-Line which in most games does not run block very well, and with a play caller who completely abandons the running game in the second half every week, yeah I'd say that's a pretty good back who deserves more opportunity to run the ball. He also proved to be very explosive catching the ball on swing passes but McDaniels failed miserably to take advantage of that. I'm hoping he gets those opportunities this year now that McDaniels is gone.

FlyingElvis
03-27-2009, 10:23 AM
Puppy Puncher = Brian Waters' son?


What a pessimistic thread, seemingly based solely on upsetting Brain Waters. The Maroney/Jackson draft certainly looks to be the only true fail for Pioli & BB since they took over in NE. But even that is too recent to be sure. We'll find out for sure if O'Callahan, LeKevin Smith and David Thomas can play over the next 2 seasons.

Merriweather is very good and my crystal ball says he earns his first pro-bowl appearance this year. Considering the rest of that draft consisted of Welker & Moss I'd say that's pretty stellar, which you did mention.


The biggest ommission from your post is the fact that every time a top player goes down someone else steps up. That is the measure of the FO's effectiveness. Be it Brady, Seymour, Adalius, Maroney, or the entire defensive secondary - the next guy in line steps up and plays well enough to not be a glaring hole. Coaching is certainly part of that, but I'd say - based on KC's success over the last few seasons - that anything is an upgrade. Going out and poaching one of the consensus best in the league is a great move.

The second biggest would be the 2000-2004 drafts that you conviently left out.
2004 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Wilfork, Watson, Hill (rip)

2003 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Bethel Johnson (bum), Dan Klecko, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen

2002 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Dan Graham, Deion Branch, Rohan Davey, Jarvis Green, David Givens,

2001 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Richard Seymour, Matt Light

2000 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
ok, Redmond in the 3rd . . . meh. Brady in the 6th on the other hand . . . and Patrick Pass in the 7th

They do great in the draft and free agency. What the hell are you looking for in KC of Pioli isn't good enough? Overrated . . . maybe, but the success of NE makes it tough to defend calling him overrated. How many championships does a guy need to be "as good as advertised" in your opinion?


I don't mind Maroney being considered a bust, but to say he sucks is just stupid. He dances too much, but that (imo) is more a function of a guy who can't stay healthy enough to break through the 'rookie happy-feet' syndrome.

FlyingElvis
03-27-2009, 10:48 AM
given that you usually make pretty coherent, well reasoned arguments (honestly), i'll be waiting to hear why, in the face of almost all evidence, he doesn't suck.

The guy has talent. He has good speed, is elusive and can deliver a hit on defenders. He went off in the 07 post season, accumulating nearly 300 total yards & 2 TDs in two playoff games in 2007 until NYG destroyed everything the Pats tried to do offensively.

A career long TD of 59 yards and enough 10+ yard gains to go with that over his injury plaqued career. I would mention the 4.5 ypc, but you pre-emptively nixed that as an argument ;)

He absolutely has not panned out, but it seems to be b/c of injury. To say he sucks is unfair, imo. Call him a bust* and define the * as 'injury related' and I'm ok with it. Call him a bust and say he sucks and I'm going to disagree. Get him on the field for a full season (however doubtful that may be) and see how he does. If he can't do any better than his usual backfield dancing then I'll be willing to say he sucks.

Thanks for the compliment.

bearsfan_51
03-27-2009, 10:48 AM
Didnt know having 3 super bowl rings made you overrated... Would love to see what he would have done with the chiefs draft last year.
Actually this is a pretty decent example of how he likely has become overrated. Pioli was part of an organzation that won 3 Superbowls. That doesn't mean it will translate to success by himself in Kansas City as all. Romeo Crennel was part of an organization that won 3 Superbowls too.

Splat
03-27-2009, 10:51 AM
Hater in the house I could not care less if he is overrated as long as he keeps doing what he has done the last 8 years or so.

TNPatsFan
03-27-2009, 10:52 AM
do i? like when i've said something of substance in every post in this thread thus far? do you have problems reading or did you just skip past all the words?



boy, 800 yards?!? you mean he averaged a whopping 50 yards per game? what a great running back.



what the hell are you talking about? he has 4 100 yard games in HIS CAREER. he's 4 for 30.



sure didn't seem to hold morris back. but maybe he played behind an entirely different line.



in week one last year against KC, you ran 5/11 times on your opening drive, finishing with a morris score. your next drive, in the 4th quarter, you ran 1/3 plays. your next posession, you ran 3/3 plays. on your final drive, you ran the ball 5/10 plays. giving a total of 14 runs out of 27 total plays. which means you actually ran the ball MORE often than you threw it.



pretty explosive catching the ball? based on what, exactly, his 4 total catches in the last year and three games? meanwhile faulk has had 40+ catches every season maroney's been in new england. and has been FAR better on third downs. but the 36 catch difference is just because mcdaniels hated maroney, right?


do you have ANY idea what you're talking about? this entire post was a series of either complete fabrications or outright lies.


I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing match with you. But to answer your questions..

Like I said that 800 yards was 4.5 yards per carry. That's pretty good. If he had more carries he'd be a 1200 yard back (assuming he could stay healthy of course, and that's my concern with him)

He actually has 6 100 yard games including playoffs which is what I'm talking about. Those 4 100 yard games came in 4 out of 5 games. You could have just asked me to clarify instead of throwing a tantrum. Maroney can't be expected to have many 100 yard games when they aren't giving him the ball. He was getting better and better in his second year but McDaniels didn't take advantage of it.

You say it didn't hold Morris back, but Maroney had more yards than Morris so I can't understand your argument there.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the KC game comment, but that's nice. The fact is Josh McDaniels frequently gives up on the running game in the second half. He even did it when Dillon and Maroney were there. Again, it boils down to what I've been saying, he produces well for the limited carries he's getting.

Again I'm not sure why you're comparing Maroney to Faulk there. Of course Faulk catches the ball more. He's the third down back. Maroney isn't. I'm not talking about statistics in this case. I'm talking about when they threw him the ball (which as you pointed out they did very little) he was very effective getting big yards out of it. An intelligent OC would see that and make that a part of his offense but McDaniels failed to do it.

And yes, I do know what I'm talking about. It's just clear that you're not interested in opinions that don't agree with yours and your response is to throw crap at anyone who says something you don't agree with.

Jvig43
03-27-2009, 10:55 AM
I think you have to give him at least one season in KC before starting this thread.

Agreed, you havent even gotten through your draft yet. I think regardless of how you feel this was a big improvement over what you had, you won two games last year, you cant go anywhere but up, and who in your opinion would you have hired other then Pioli?

bearsfan_51
03-27-2009, 10:59 AM
Agreed, you havent even gotten through your draft yet. I think regardless of how you feel this was a big improvement over what you had, you won two games last year, you cant go anywhere but up, and who in your opinion would you have hired other then Pioli?

I think most of you are failing to understand the point of his post (which, I didn't understand until I saw some of the hyperbole coming from people trying to disagree with him).

He's not saying, I don't think, that Pioli is unqualified or that he automatically thinks he'll do a bad job. He's saying that it's completely unfounded to assume that he'll turn the Chiefs around like he did with the Patriots. Which is absolutely true. One, becuase it's a completely different organization. Two, because he has much more personal responsibility over the operation of the team. Three, because, as was pointed out, his drafts the last 3-4 years have been pretty average.

To say that he needs a year before you can call him a failure is obvious. But it seems like far more people are willing to assume that he's going to succeed than logic and precendence would allow.

Jvig43
03-27-2009, 11:03 AM
I think most of you are failing to understand the point of his post (which, I didn't understand until I saw some of the hyperbole coming from people trying to disagree with him).

He's not saying, I don't think, that Pioli is unqualified or that he automatically thinks he'll do a bad job. He's saying that it's completely unfounded to assume that he'll turn the Chiefs around like he did with the Patriots. Which is absolutely true. One, becuase it's a completely different organization. Two, because he has much more personal responsibility over the operation of the team. Three, because, as was pointed out, his drafts the last 3-4 years have been pretty average.

To say that he needs a year before you can call him a failure is obvious. But it seems like far more people are willing to assume that he's going to succeed than logic and precendence would allow.

Right, I agree that its stupid to think the chiefs can just become a play off contender with one draft. I just didnt see the point of worrying yet, as the draft isnt even here yet.

LarryJohnson27
03-27-2009, 11:08 AM
I don't think all the hype is just about Pioli. I think it also has alot to do with the situation as there is already alot of young talent already in Kansas City. I know alot of fans (not just Chiefs fans) give Herm Edwards alot of ish but he got this franchise a very solid group of young guys to build around. I don 't know for sure if this team will be playoff caliber anytime soon, but I do know that if we do guys like Albert, Bowe, Dorsey, Flowers, Page, Carr, Charles, and Cottam will be a big part of the success.

Splat
03-27-2009, 11:10 AM
Right, I agree that its stupid to think the chiefs can just become a play off contender with one draft. I just didnt see the point of worrying yet, as the draft isnt even here yet.

Most Chiefs fans understand that this will take a few years and might not work out at all but there is reason for hope that we didn't have the last few years.

nepg
03-27-2009, 11:18 AM
With the way some of the other teams are going in the AFC West, the Chiefs might be the favorite to win it. They really don't lack talent, and one Pioli draft could do it when you take last year's rookies and their development as well as the players they've acquired in the off-season into account.
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FlyingElvis
03-27-2009, 11:19 AM
I think most of you are failing to understand the point of his post (which, I didn't understand until I saw some of the hyperbole coming from people trying to disagree with him).

He's not saying, I don't think, that Pioli is unqualified or that he automatically thinks he'll do a bad job. He's saying that it's completely unfounded to assume that he'll turn the Chiefs around like he did with the Patriots. Which is absolutely true. One, becuase it's a completely different organization. Two, because he has much more personal responsibility over the operation of the team. Three, because, as was pointed out, his drafts the last 3-4 years have been pretty average.

To say that he needs a year before you can call him a failure is obvious. But it seems like far more people are willing to assume that he's going to succeed than logic and precendence would allow.

The point is understandable, and the question is fair.

Some of the "evidence" is incorrect. Specifically, claiming the last 3-4 years of drafting have been average is just wrong. One year out of 3 has the potential to be (and arguably already is) an epic fail.

2008 = DROY and the next 3 picks landed on IR
2007 = Merriweather (trades for Welker & Moss)
2006 = Epic Fail
2005 = 4 solid starters & Cassel (imo 5 starters)

Splat
03-27-2009, 11:21 AM
With the way some of the other teams are going in the AFC West, the Chiefs might be the favorite to win it. They really don't lack talent, and one Pioli draft could do it when you take last year's rookies and their development as well as the players they've acquired in the off-season into account.

This is why threads like this get started slow down this will take time our D is a mess it is going to take more then one off season to fix it.

nepg
03-27-2009, 11:24 AM
The D isn't that bad. It lacked a pass rusher and a middle linebacker. The offense was more at-fault, and that aspect of the team has been addressed (and they're still working on it).
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Splat
03-27-2009, 11:26 AM
The D isn't that bad. It lacked a pass rusher and a middle linebacker. The offense was more at-fault, and that aspect of the team has been addressed (and they're still working on it).

You have got to be joking.

bored of education
03-27-2009, 11:31 AM
I want Pioli to swap 1sts with the Vikings to get Jared Allen back and give them Tyler Thigpen! And give them a 4th!

ahh man I miss JA :(

nepg
03-27-2009, 11:34 AM
You have got to be joking.

The offense couldn't convert 3rd down and played like ass in the 2nd and 4th quarters. This is both after they switched to the high school offense to accomodate Thigpen's inadequacies... Prior to that, the offense played like garbage every down of every quarter in every situation.
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bearsfan_51
03-27-2009, 11:37 AM
The point is understandable, and the question is fair.

Some of the "evidence" is incorrect. Specifically, claiming the last 3-4 years of drafting have been average is just wrong. One year out of 3 has the potential to be (and arguably already is) an epic fail.

2008 = DROY and the next 3 picks landed on IR
2007 = Merriweather (trades for Welker & Moss)
2006 = Epic Fail
2005 = 4 solid starters & Cassel (imo 5 starters)
How many great players has Pioli drafted in the last 4 years? I don't think you can say any so far.

Splat
03-27-2009, 11:53 AM
The offense couldn't convert 3rd down and played like ass in the 2nd and 4th quarters. This is both after they switched to the high school offense to accomodate Thigpen's inadequacies... Prior to that, the offense played like garbage every down of every quarter in every situation.

The D played like garbage every down every quarter all season.

bored of education
03-27-2009, 12:01 PM
Everything last year sucked about KC except Tony G, Albert and Brandon Flowers.

Splat
03-27-2009, 12:05 PM
Everything last year sucked about KC except Tony G, Albert and Brandon Flowers.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b87/Splat420/Bowe.png

vidae
03-27-2009, 12:17 PM
Bowe had a case of the drops early in the season.

Matthew Jones
03-27-2009, 12:20 PM
If the 3-4 defense wasn't installed, Pioli would have a much harder time scouting players for his scheme. The Chiefs should have and probably did know that he was going to do that. I think Dorsey is a decent fit, but Hali probably has to go in the next couple of years. Brandon Flowers is an excellent fit - I wanted New England to draft him last year. If their 3-4 is like New England's, they'll usually be playing zone coverage. Besides, did the Chiefs show you anything on defense last year in a 4-3?

The difference between Matt Cassel and Tyler Thigpen is enormous. One of them ended up at Coastal Carolina, the other was a highly-recruited prospect who happened to walk into a situation where two top-ten picks with Heisman trophies were ahead of him on the depth chart. Thigpen blew games in the fourth quarter last year, and Cassel looked like a Pro Bowler over the last couple months. Vrabel is mostly there for leadership reasons. The Chiefs are one of the youngest teams in the league and don't have much veteran presence.

Like you said, Bobby Engram and Mike Goff are both decent starters. Brian Waters is not even close to being the best left guard in the league. That's Steve Hutchinson by a mile.

2005: I think we agree on this. Mankins, Hobbs, Kaczur, Sanders, and Cassel were starters last year. 5/7 starters is outstanding, especially considering they didn't have a second round pick. The only two players they "missed" on were #170 overall and Mr. Irrelevant.

2006: I'll agree this wasn't an excellent draft. Maroney is probably still the starter at running back, although the team is wisely keeping the committee approach. He's 24 years old, for crying out loud. When you add playoff games, his first two seasons:

2006 - 17 games, 206 carries, 832 yards, 6 touchdowns
2007 - 16 games, 246 carries, 1,115 yards, 9 touchdowns

Last year he was injured, playing in only three games. Stephen Gostkowski is a Pro Bowler, and O'Callaghan and LeKevin Smith are on roster. I'll agree this is their weakest recent draft, but I wouldn't call Maroney a bust.

2007: Brandon Meriweather was outstanding last year. He was easily the biggest playmaker in the secondary. Richardson is another player I like and is still on the roster. Again, like you said, they picked up Moss and Welker in this draft and went 16-0 the next year. Everyone else they picked (who were picked in rounds 6 and 7, mostly) was a long shot to make the roster because the team was loaded across the board going into the draft.

2008: Jerod Mayo is the defensive rookie of the year. Terrence Wehatley and Jonatahn Whilhite both looked good last season too, but Wheatley broke his wrist deflecting a pass in the Colts game (his first start.) Crable was on I.R. this year. Kevin O'Connell has talent but was behind Brady and Cassel.

Not including Moss, Welker, and Cassel, 8 of New England's draft picks the past four years will likely go into this season as starters. The team has drafted pretty much every starter they have - QB, RB, TE, OL, DL, 3/4 LBs, 1 CB, S - under Belichick/Pioli and I'd say they've assembled a pretty good team.

bored of education
03-27-2009, 12:22 PM
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b87/Splat420/Bowe.png

I didnt even have to type his name. if he didn't have the dropsies against NE KC would have beat NE and then that could have changed the whole season.

Splat
03-27-2009, 12:28 PM
Bowe had a case of the drops early in the season.

O ya well Derrick Johnson had the case of the missed tackles all season.:)

Iamcanadian
03-27-2009, 12:29 PM
Everybody who takes a promotion in the NFL is overrated by the people who hired him until he actually proves he is competent. Coming from NE is no guarantee but I'd hire him over a Meyhew who learned his job from Matt Millen and has a blank resume to judge him on. That being said, Pioli like any new hire will have to prove he can do the job.

P-L
03-27-2009, 12:46 PM
I guess we will find out if Bill Belichick or Scott Pioli was really the mastermind behind the Patriots success.

vidae
03-27-2009, 12:53 PM
O ya well Derrick Johnson had the case of the missed tackles all season.:)

No he didn't! Don't make this personal Splat!

bored of education
03-27-2009, 01:12 PM
No he didn't! Don't make this personal Splat!

what about the 3 ints that he dropped.

FlyingElvis
03-27-2009, 01:22 PM
How many great players has Pioli drafted in the last 4 years? I don't think you can say any so far.

A thoroughly subjective topic. But I'll play along - Mayo, Mankins, Gostkowski and Hobbs (great return man & decent CB)

How many other teams can you say have drafted xxxx number of great players over the last 4 years? Since when is 4 years enough to guage a player's "greatness"?

Also, NE has a track record of slowly working guys into the rotation. So it can be argued that a team like the Patriots, who have excellent depth historically, require longer periods of time before we can truly assess how good a player is b/c they may not play as much as they would with another team.

And again, why are we dismissing the 2000-2004 drafts? Why don't those count?

bored of education
03-27-2009, 01:36 PM
A thoroughly subjective topic. But I'll play along - Mayo, Mankins, Gostkowski and Hobbs (great return man & decent CB)

How many other teams can you say have drafted xxxx number of great players over the last 4 years? Since when is 4 years enough to guage a player's "greatness"?

Also, NE has a track record of slowly working guys into the rotation. So it can be argued that a team like the Patriots, who have excellent depth historically, require longer periods of time before we can truly assess how good a player is b/c they may not play as much as they would with another team.

And again, why are we dismissing the 2000-2004 drafts? Why don't those count?


what have you done for me lately? maybe? I dunno. they got Wes and Randy recently. So that with Hobbs, Mankins, Mayo and Gos is pretty solid. People dont relaize that not much turnover has happened for the Pat on their roster in the past 4 years besides getting rid of old farts and Asante...so killing it draft wise is not needed per se. and thats comming from the number one hater on the board. :D

FlyingElvis
03-27-2009, 02:01 PM
he WAS impressive in the playoffs that year. i distinctly remember watching him thinking, 'where the heck did this guy come from?'

but then he was abysmal vs. the giants. and he was abysmal before the playoffs. which makes me feel like the playoffs were the aberration. that said, if he comes out this season and runs really well (by which i mean, isn't getting outperformed by nearly every other rb on the roster), i have no problem eating crow. but when green-ellis looks like a better runner...

Those 2 games are indicative of what he can become, no doubt. That is exactly why I think he hasn’t been able to play enough to consistently reach his potential. Which is why I say he doesn’t suck. In his second season he did a decent job in a RBBC system and blew up in the playoffs. Then played 3 games in 08.

The Giants D-line put up one of the greatest performances I have even seen in any game, let alone a superbowl. NE’s O-line got shredded. Sweetness would have looked bad in that game.

i disagree with the ypc argument because it's baseless. it's like saying "well, david carr had an X rating, so he can't suck." without the background data, it's, well, just white noise. for instance:

maroney has typically become progressively worse over the course of the game (his 4.7 ypc on his first ten carries of the game as compared to 3.2 ypc after twenty). he's horrible inside the red zone (2.9 ypc). he's substantially worse in the 4th quarter than in the first quarter (4.6 ypc to 3.8 ypc).

without seeing him play (and seeing that defenses tend to wear him down), none of that would be relevant information in and of itself.

that said, all of those 10 yard runs further skew the stats (at least in the context of this thread), as a 10 yard carry is hardly a "home run". and they make his rushing ability look down right awful in some games (if we play the, 'take away the one big run and you're left with 2.0 ypc for the day' game).

I understand that stats can be used and misused. For example: 4th Q ypc and his 20th + carries . . . have you considered the status of all of those games? NE was blowing teams out and presumably running out the clock with those late game carries. That situation is much easier to defend. Same goes (sort of) for the red zone, where the D is packed into a short field and can expose a run game that is based more on play-action/screen/draw than true smash mouth, thus exposing an O line geared towards pass protection. It is relatively subjective – you say Maroney wore down, I say the D had less passing to worry about. It’s not like there’s any empirical evidence to say which is correct.

fine, to be fair. if he'd had the full 3 years of play, i might be of a different opinion. but pretty much from his rookie season on, he's done nothing to make me think he's better than mediocre.
He’s a better than mediocre talent (i.e. “potential”) who has not proven he’s anything better than mediocre. That I can agree with at this point. But, unless you think mediocre = suck . . .

FlyingElvis
03-27-2009, 02:04 PM
Anyway . . . I'm torn w/Pioli. I have a ton of respect for him and want to see him continue to succeed.

On the other hand, maybe if he & McDaniels both flop over the next few seasons the rest of the NFL will stay the **** out of Bob Kraft's cupboards. Find some other teams coaches, players & FO staffers to poach for a change.

bearsfan_51
03-27-2009, 02:25 PM
A thoroughly subjective topic. But I'll play along - Mayo, Mankins, Gostkowski and Hobbs (great return man & decent CB)

How many other teams can you say have drafted xxxx number of great players over the last 4 years? Since when is 4 years enough to guage a player's "greatness"?

Also, NE has a track record of slowly working guys into the rotation. So it can be argued that a team like the Patriots, who have excellent depth historically, require longer periods of time before we can truly assess how good a player is b/c they may not play as much as they would with another team.

And again, why are we dismissing the 2000-2004 drafts? Why don't those count?
I'm a post-structuralist, so if you really want to get on the topic I'd say that everything is subjective and we'll all just operating within a completely arbitrary discourse.

However. There are barometers you can look at to judge the value of a player (ie: Peyton Manning is great, Rex Grossman is not).

I'm throwing out the kicker. He drafted a good kicker. Cool. They also let Robbie Gould go, who is arguably a better kicker, so that would be a wash to me anyway.

Logan Mankins is a great guard, but as a 1st round pick he damn well better be. If you get drafted in the first round as a guard and aren't one of the best players at your position you're a bust. A good pick, but a great one? Meh.

Ellis Hobbs is a good player, I don't think you can call him a great player. At least not yet anyway. He's developing into a good starter, but isn't close to one of the best at his positions from what I've seen.

Mayo is probably his best pick in the last 3-4 years. Granted it was an inside linebacker with a top 10 pick, so similar to the guard it's a pick he should have hit on. That said, he did, and should be given credit for it. Probably the closest to being an elite player the Pats have drafted in quite a while, assuming he continues to develop.

I also don't think that anyone is trying to discredit Pioli's record as a drafter, or is trying to ignore his previous accomplishments (although there's no doubt that most of the players drafted on the three Superbowl teams were from drafts when Pioli had less power than he did in the latter part of his years in New England, so I don't think it's entirely arbitrary to examine his more recent work as a better reflection as to what type of GM he would be.

Again, I don't think anyone is trying to say his record is bad as a GM. I think the general argument is that it has flaws, particularly within the last few years, and to say "Scott Pioli won 3 Superbowls" is a rather limited and short-sighted argument to make about his potential merits as a full-time GM in Kansas City.

FlyingElvis
03-27-2009, 02:39 PM
Again, I don't think anyone is trying to say his record is bad as a GM. I think the general argument is that it has flaws, particularly within the last few years, and to say "Scott Pioli won 3 Superbowls" is a rather limited and short-sighted argument to make about his potential merits as a full-time GM in Kansas City.

I agree completely. I don't think the post/thread is trying to discredit him at all.

But I still find the whole premise oddly pessimisstic. KC now has a GM who was an itegral part of the most successful franchise in a decade. What the hell else can any fanbase ask for??

Shane P. Hallam
03-27-2009, 02:54 PM
what have you done for me lately? maybe? I dunno. they got Wes and Randy recently. So that with Hobbs, Mankins, Mayo and Gos is pretty solid. People dont relaize that not much turnover has happened for the Pat on their roster in the past 4 years besides getting rid of old farts and Asante...so killing it draft wise is not needed per se. and thats comming from the number one hater on the board. :D

I think this is key. The guy does more than draft, he makes some incredible value trades. Welker played decent for the Dolphins, but the Pats gave up a second rounder, and many were thinking WTF. Amazing.

Amazing value on Moss, and now on Cassel. Whether you like him or not, he fits the system very well.

LarryJohnson27
03-27-2009, 03:41 PM
I think this is key. The guy does more than draft, he makes some incredible value trades. Welker played decent for the Dolphins, but the Pats gave up a second rounder, and many were thinking WTF. Amazing.

Amazing value on Moss, and now on Cassel. Whether you like him or not, he fits the system very well.

Very good point. And something tells me he's not done making those kinds of trades for this offseason. I have a feeling he has something up his sleeve for draft day. With holes at DE, LB, RT, no 2nd rounder, and the situations with LJ, Waters, and TG the Chiefs are by no means done making trades IMO.

bored of education
03-27-2009, 03:50 PM
Very good point. And something tells me he's not done making those kinds of trades for this offseason. I have a feeling he has something up his sleeve for draft day. With holes at DE, LB, RT, no 2nd rounder, and the situations with LJ, Waters, and TG the Chiefs are by no means done making trades IMO.

I think the same. I think the Chiefs will be moving from the number 3 spot as well. The infatuation of Curry(false or true could help KC position them self to move or send smoke signals) and the availability of Stafford/Monroe/Smith would be a dream for KC. They could move down from 3 on the 'cheap' getting a 3rd and future 3rd or something.

BlindSite
03-27-2009, 04:13 PM
I think this argument is being simplified a little bit for the sake of arguing about the draft. Directors of scouting, college scouts and other areas of searching for draft prospects can go up and down while the GM stays the same.

More than one GM has been amazing in one city and terrible in another, or even in the one city over the space of a few years. Their reliance on scouts is a HUGE part of the process.

nepg
03-27-2009, 04:20 PM
I think this argument is being simplified a little bit for the sake of arguing about the draft. Directors of scouting, college scouts and other areas of searching for draft prospects can go up and down while the GM stays the same.

More than one GM has been amazing in one city and terrible in another, or even in the one city over the space of a few years. Their reliance on scouts is a HUGE part of the process.

Which is why Pioli's so good. He's been in charge of hiring scouts and choosing which ones to rely on.
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