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View Full Version : Best WR tandem in the AFC


jkb528
03-30-2009, 07:26 PM
Who is it?

Wayne/Gonzalez?
Chambers/Jackson?
Owens/Evans?
Moss/Welker?

GB12
03-30-2009, 07:29 PM
Is this a serious question? None of those come close to New England.

BmoreBlackByrdz
03-30-2009, 07:30 PM
You forgot Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal, both those guys are young, still improving and are already playing at high levels. Call me crazy, but I'd take them over Moss and Welker. Marshall and Royal compliment each other perfectly.

brat316
03-30-2009, 07:30 PM
D Bo and himself. He doesn't need anyone else.

BmoreBlackByrdz
03-30-2009, 07:33 PM
D Bo and himself. He doesn't need anyone else.

if they get Crabtree or Nicks, then I would acutally jump onto there bandwagon. Bowe is a beast though.

Xonraider
03-30-2009, 07:33 PM
Michael Crabtree and Chaz Schilens

Donno
03-30-2009, 07:35 PM
Michael Crabtree and Chaz Schilens

Exactly boss

BaLLiN
03-30-2009, 07:36 PM
ANDRE JOHNSON TYMMMEEE


but really, i think the best duo is Royal and Marshall, Moss and Welker almost even. If you consider how Royal and Marshall didnt have a great rushing game, although there team is known for rushing while NE had a stockpile of great veteran backs.

Now i think Cutler is better than Cassell (he is good, but in the system he was in with the recievers he had it questions his real skill).

And then if you look at the third man, Stokely is excellent working the middle, whereas Gaffney i feel is more of a reciever with no great talent but gets it done.

art vandelay
03-30-2009, 07:43 PM
Is this a serious question? None of those come close to New England.

Evans/Owens isn't close?? I think you could argue that they are better. And that is not a homer statement.

BrownsTown
03-30-2009, 07:44 PM
Edwards and Steptoe. LEGIT

Chief49er
03-30-2009, 07:47 PM
Is this a serious question? None of those come close to New England.

Owens or Moss... Hmmm

Welker or Evans... hmmm


This is a tough one.

Nalej
03-30-2009, 07:50 PM
Moss and Welker [/homer]

Shane P. Hallam
03-30-2009, 07:52 PM
I think it is easily Moss and Welker myself.

Moss is a better player right now than TO.

Evans is inconsistent, and Welker is the namesake of consistency. He is better than Evans right now. Give me NE.

keylime_5
03-30-2009, 07:55 PM
Crabtree and Edwards ;)

jth1331
03-30-2009, 07:56 PM
Give me Marshall and Royal baby. Although honestly, I'd say Moss/Welker at this point because they are more proven. But Marshall and Royal are right on their heals at this point.

tjsunstein
03-30-2009, 08:09 PM
You're lucky that Jordyz isnt in the AFC.

Thumper
03-30-2009, 08:25 PM
what no NFC?

skinzzfan25
03-30-2009, 08:28 PM
what no NFC?

Cards.

Give me another year (while staying out of trouble) out of Marshall/Royal and I'll take em. But for now it's gotta be Moss and Welker.

BmoreBlackByrdz
03-30-2009, 08:30 PM
building a franchise? Royal and Marshall no question

Playing a game tomorrow? Moss Welker

vidae
03-30-2009, 08:32 PM
D Bo and himself. He doesn't need anyone else.

You, sir, are a genius!

princefielder28
03-30-2009, 08:36 PM
building a franchise? Royal and Marshall no question

Playing a game tomorrow? Moss Welker

exactly...I love me some Brandon Marshall

bored of education
03-30-2009, 08:43 PM
Bowe and Tony G > all.

redbills
03-30-2009, 08:44 PM
I think it is easily Moss and Welker myself.

Moss is a better player right now than TO.

Evans is inconsistent, and Welker is the namesake of consistency. He is better than Evans right now. Give me NE.

Well I am sure if Evans worked the slot all the time he'd put up crazy numbers too.
But Moss & Welker

BamaFalcon59
03-30-2009, 08:48 PM
Brandon Marshall is very overrated.

Eddie Royal, though, is a beast.

Brodeur
03-30-2009, 08:48 PM
Dennis Northcutt/Mike Walker.

princefielder28
03-30-2009, 08:49 PM
Brandon Marshall is very overrated.

Eddie Royal, though, is a beast.

How is Marshall overrated? The guy is a frickin' beast!

BamaFalcon59
03-30-2009, 08:55 PM
How is Marshall overrated? The guy is a frickin' beast!

He has inflated stats due to the offense he plays in, and although he is often compared to Terrell Owens he isn't near the deep threat Owens was or even is today.

Also, for a big receiver with his number of receptions, he has very low touchdown totals.

CashmoneyDrew
03-30-2009, 08:57 PM
Where's the Justin Gage and Lavelle Hawkins love? :/

TitanHope
03-30-2009, 09:04 PM
Where's the Justin Gage and Lavelle Hawkins love? :/

They're left out cuz they're the obvious choice...right fellas?

*hugs his Chris Johnson and Titans OL dolls*

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
03-30-2009, 09:24 PM
Moss/Welker all day. Deep threat and a guy who will go across the middle.

scottyboy
03-30-2009, 09:36 PM
Andre Johnson and some hobo off the street.

yea, Andre's that good

RAVENS/WIZARDS/ORIOLES
03-30-2009, 09:38 PM
D-Mason/Clayton

kalbears13
03-30-2009, 09:46 PM
Crabtree and Edwards ;)

I was going to say that.

Saints-Tigers
03-30-2009, 10:07 PM
Easily Randy Moss.

CC.SD
03-30-2009, 10:12 PM
I like Chambers and Jackson a lot but they don't belong up there with Moss/Welker or Andre/anybody in the AFC.

jth1331
03-30-2009, 11:32 PM
He has inflated stats due to the offense he plays in, and although he is often compared to Terrell Owens he isn't near the deep threat Owens was or even is today.

Also, for a big receiver with his number of receptions, he has very low touchdown totals.

Inflated stats due to the offense he plays in? What about Moss and Welker then? Don't they have inflated stats, especially Welker, due to the offenses they are in?
And Marshall has only been in the league 3 years and made the Pro Bowl. Owens was just getting into his own at the same time.

CC.SD
03-30-2009, 11:43 PM
He has inflated stats due to the offense he plays in, and although he is often compared to Terrell Owens he isn't near the deep threat Owens was or even is today.

Also, for a big receiver with his number of receptions, he has very low touchdown totals.

The system he plays in is called "Throw to Marshall, he's open."

BeerBaron
03-30-2009, 11:49 PM
I think anyone not saying Moss/Welker is suffering some anti-Pats bias.

I think they even give Fitz/Boldin a run for their money (assuming that it's assumed that they're just the best in the NFC...)

BamaFalcon59
03-31-2009, 12:16 AM
Inflated stats due to the offense he plays in? What about Moss and Welker then? Don't they have inflated stats, especially Welker, due to the offenses they are in?
And Marshall has only been in the league 3 years and made the Pro Bowl. Owens was just getting into his own at the same time.

Welker definitely has inflated stats.

But at least he (Welker) produced on a team with a good run game.

The Broncos form of a run game was the short passing game.

As for Owens, he had 26 receiving touchdowns in his first three seasons in the league. Marshall has 15. On 64 more receptions. Owens averaged over 15 yards per catch his first three seasons, Marshall not even 13.

To this point, Marshall hasn't shown much at all. He catches a lot of ball, but hasn't made a ton of big plays or caught a lot of touchdowns. He's more Keyshawn Johnson than Terrell Owens.

gpngc
03-31-2009, 12:51 AM
Definitely can't go wrong with Moss/Welker or Royal/Marshall

And on paper Owens/Evans is pretty much as good as it gets...

But there's no Trent Edwards on paper...

LonghornsLegend
03-31-2009, 01:00 AM
He has inflated stats due to the offense he plays in, and although he is often compared to Terrell Owens he isn't near the deep threat Owens was or even is today.

Also, for a big receiver with his number of receptions, he has very low touchdown totals.

Then how do you explain Andre Johnson's TD totals? It's not like Brandon Marshall has played 6 seasons so you have a large sample to go from.


AJ through 3 seasons: 12 TD's
Marshall through 3 seasons: 15 TD's

Nevermind that AJ followed that up with 5, 8, and 8.


And sorry but if you want to use the inflated stats argument for the offense then use it against Welker, Marshall is the #1 WR and gets doubled like crazy, his stats aren't inflated because of the offense they are inflated because he's good.


You said yourself he's not really a deep threat, yet he still managed to get 1300 yards twice on all underneath routes? That's even more impressive, and his YPC is more impressive then you might think.

He posted a YPC over 15 as a rookie, Fitzgerald has yet to go over 15, and last year Marshall was averaging 13 which is about Fitz's career average, Marshall wasn't far off that total this year.


He's hardly over-rated, maybe he's not TO, but he's still a dominant WR that is dripping with talent.


edit: I see someone already mentioned Welker so you can disregard that.

fenikz
03-31-2009, 01:20 AM
Andre Johnson and Kevin Walter.

niel89
03-31-2009, 02:43 AM
It's Moss/Welker.

A better question is who has the worst tandem in the NFL?

nobodyinparticular
03-31-2009, 02:51 AM
A better question is who has the worst tandem in the NFL?

I think part of the problem with determining that is the lack of consistency of "tandems" because teams want to get their bad players off the field.

That said, Ron Curry, JLH, Schilens, Javon of the Raiders was about as bad as it gets last year. Potential? Yeah, there are tools to work with in regards to JLH and Schilens, but can the Raiders really count on rolling snake-eyes?

Diehard
03-31-2009, 11:48 AM
The system he plays in is called "Throw to Marshall, he's open."

No, that's the system Jay wants to play in. Much easier than making reads, going through your progression, etc.

McD, of course, has other plans.

Donno
03-31-2009, 11:52 AM
Dennis Northcutt/Mike Walker.

Thats a pretty lethal combo

Splat
03-31-2009, 11:54 AM
The whole Welker has inflated stats he is a product of the system stuff is getting so old who cares if he is a product of the system he has had back to back years that have been just insane.

DeathbyStat
03-31-2009, 12:02 PM
Moss/Welker hands down


Marshall and Royal have potential as does Wayne and Gonzo

indyfan1985
03-31-2009, 12:20 PM
Who is it?

Wayne/Gonzalez?
Chambers/Jackson?
Owens/Evans?
Moss/Welker?

Right now it is Moss/Welker, but it soon will be Wayne/Gonzo since Gonzo is just about to get into his prime and is a better athlete and a quicker WR than Welker is.

mqtirishfan
03-31-2009, 12:31 PM
The whole Welker has inflated stats he is a product of the system stuff is getting so old who cares if he is a product of the system he has had back to back years that have been just insane.

The point is there are plenty of 2nd receivers in the NFL I'd want on my team over Welker, because I don't think he could produce as well as others in any other situation.

bigbluedefense
03-31-2009, 12:58 PM
Moss/Welker easily.

Its the perfect mix. Moss stretches the living crap out of a defense vertically, and leaves the entire middle of the field open for underneath routes.

Welker is probably the best WR in the league in space (behind Fitz), and he stretches a defense horizontally as good as any WR in the league. He's tough, shifty, and impossible to cover underneath with all that space left open by Moss. He's probably the shiftiest WR in the league, and a prototype slot WR. Theres better WRs in this league than Welker, but none of them are better in the slot than him. He's the perfect slot WR.

We all already know how I feel about Moss. Most impactful WR ive ever seen.

They are the perfect duo.

stephenson86
03-31-2009, 01:12 PM
justin gage and nate washington /thread

Brent
03-31-2009, 01:33 PM
Andre Johnson and Kevin Walter.
People hate on Kevin Walter too much. Too bad they have the injury-prone Matt Schaub throwing to them.

Gay Ork Wang
03-31-2009, 01:45 PM
Then how do you explain Andre Johnson's TD totals? It's not like Brandon Marshall has played 6 seasons so you have a large sample to go from.


AJ through 3 seasons: 12 TD's
Marshall through 3 seasons: 15 TD's

Nevermind that AJ followed that up with 5, 8, and 8.


And sorry but if you want to use the inflated stats argument for the offense then use it against Welker, Marshall is the #1 WR and gets doubled like crazy, his stats aren't inflated because of the offense they are inflated because he's good.


You said yourself he's not really a deep threat, yet he still managed to get 1300 yards twice on all underneath routes? That's even more impressive, and his YPC is more impressive then you might think.

He posted a YPC over 15 as a rookie, Fitzgerald has yet to go over 15, and last year Marshall was averaging 13 which is about Fitz's career average, Marshall wasn't far off that total this year.


He's hardly over-rated, maybe he's not TO, but he's still a dominant WR that is dripping with talent.


edit: I see someone already mentioned Welker so you can disregard that.
Andre Johnson had David Carr throwing him the ball. Name one other guy than Andre Johnson that was any good on the Texans.

worst tandem:

Devin Hester and ******* Rashied Davis!

thenewfeature06
03-31-2009, 02:06 PM
Moss/Welker

LonghornsLegend
03-31-2009, 02:06 PM
Andre Johnson had David Carr throwing him the ball.


Boldin had 1400 yards and 8 TD's with Josh McCown, Calvin Johnson had 1300 yards and 12 TD's with crap at QB. Elite WR's still produce and that's what everyone assumes AJ is even though his TD totals are pedestrian.


In comparison Roy Williams through 3 seasons: 23 TD's


Almost doubling Andre's totals, but everyone acts like Roy sucks around here.



Name one other guy than Andre Johnson that was any good on the Texans.



Name one other good player on the Lions last year.

Santonio10
03-31-2009, 02:13 PM
Ward and Holmes baby! Two super bowl MVPs! :)

For real though, I think it's Moss/ Welker.

FlyingElvis
03-31-2009, 02:20 PM
The homer in me says this is dumb question, as the only answer is Moss/Welker.


Then I tell the homer to shut dfu and I give it some thought.


Moss and Welker.

derza222
03-31-2009, 02:20 PM
Andre Johnson and Kevin Walter.

I like this one.

It's obviously got to be Moss/Welker but these two don't get as much love as they should, particularly Walter. Very underrated.

Can't believe nobody's said Cotchery/(Brad Smith?/Chansi Stuckey?/David Clowney?) though.

BmoreBlackByrdz
03-31-2009, 02:21 PM
With all these arguements between Welker/Moss vs. Royal and Marshall, are we forgeting about Reggie Wayne and Anthony Gonzalez? With Manning at QB they get it done year in and year out.

Gay Ork Wang
03-31-2009, 02:24 PM
Boldin had 1400 yards and 8 TD's with Josh McCown, Calvin Johnson had 1300 yards and 12 TD's with crap at QB. Elite WR's still produce and that's what everyone assumes AJ is even though his TD totals are pedestrian.


In comparison Roy Williams through 3 seasons: 23 TD's


Almost doubling Andre's totals, but everyone acts like Roy sucks around here.






Name one other good player on the Lions last year.
Kevin Smith for instance

LonghornsLegend
03-31-2009, 02:28 PM
Kevin Smith for instance

Domanic Davis was way better in 2004 then Kevin Smith last year...1800 yards and 14 TD's isn't a good player?

Gay Ork Wang
03-31-2009, 02:35 PM
Domanic Davis was way better in 2004 then Kevin Smith last year...1800 yards and 14 TD's isn't a good player?
okay, who would u rather have on ur team: the Texans OL and David Carr or Dan Orlovsky and the Lions Line

Splat
03-31-2009, 02:51 PM
The best TE tandem is?

bantx
03-31-2009, 02:54 PM
Antonio Gates and Brandon Manumaleuna!!!!!!!!

Gay Ork Wang
03-31-2009, 02:56 PM
The best TE tandem is?
Greg Olsen and Desmond Clark!

GB12
03-31-2009, 03:02 PM
justin gage and nate washington /thread
That joke was 3/10 funny the first time. The next 40 times it's just ******* ***.

mqtirishfan
03-31-2009, 03:10 PM
okay, who would u rather have on ur team: the Texans OL and David Carr or Dan Orlovsky and the Lions Line

Start from scratch...

JT Jag
03-31-2009, 04:57 PM
Dennis Northcutt and Mike Walker, baby!

You WISH your wide-outs were that good!

Our pass-catchers bring all the boys to the yard. That's right, they're better then yours. That's right, there better then yours--- they can teach you, but we'll have to charge.

Saints-Tigers
03-31-2009, 04:58 PM
Boldin had 1400 yards and 8 TD's with Josh McCown, Calvin Johnson had 1300 yards and 12 TD's with crap at QB. Elite WR's still produce and that's what everyone assumes AJ is even though his TD totals are pedestrian.


In comparison Roy Williams through 3 seasons: 23 TD's


Almost doubling Andre's totals, but everyone acts like Roy sucks around here.






Name one other good player on the Lions last year.

Good post, I really feel Andre Johnson gets a bigger pass than anyone, like it's a foregone conclusion that he is a top 2(or even the best) receiver, when he hasn't produced at the level of some other guys he's ranked above.

bored of education
03-31-2009, 05:18 PM
Johnsons last 1.5 seasons is greater than most peoples last 2 seasons. Thats with Rosencopter and DLaub as his QBs.
2007 Hou 9 9 60 851 8tds
2008 Hou 16 16 115 1,575 8 tds

BEASTLY!

derza222
03-31-2009, 05:19 PM
The best TE tandem is?

Dustin Keller and...whoever...we end up adding to the roster...to be the second tight end?

BamaFalcon59
03-31-2009, 05:28 PM
Then how do you explain Andre Johnson's TD totals? It's not like Brandon Marshall has played 6 seasons so you have a large sample to go from.

That was an issue for Andre as well. But Andre, unlike Marshall, has/ had a high yard per catch average.

AJ through 3 seasons: 12 TD's
Marshall through 3 seasons: 15 TD's

Nevermind that AJ followed that up with 5, 8, and 8.

See above.


And sorry but if you want to use the inflated stats argument for the offense then use it against Welker, Marshall is the #1 WR and gets doubled like crazy, his stats aren't inflated because of the offense they are inflated because he's good.

I said that

You said yourself he's not really a deep threat, yet he still managed to get 1300 yards twice on all underneath routes? That's even more impressive, and his YPC is more impressive then you might think.

He posted a YPC over 15 as a rookie, Fitzgerald has yet to go over 15, and last year Marshall was averaging 13 which is about Fitz's career average, Marshall wasn't far off that total this year.

Marshall did 15 on a low amount of sample catches.

As far as Fitz, he gets touchdowns. I can live with a receiver who makes big plays (Andre) or catches a lot of touchdowns (Larry). But not one who does neither.

Also, Fitz averages 14 ypc which is plenty good.

He's hardly over-rated, maybe he's not TO, but he's still a dominant WR that is dripping with talent.


edit: I see someone already mentioned Welker so you can disregard that.

Comments in bold.

Whistler6
03-31-2009, 05:56 PM
James Hardy (the original 81) and Roscoe Parrish

jth1331
03-31-2009, 07:36 PM
I don't get the big deal for Marshall's ypc. 2 yards, is that really that big of a deal? No, it isn't. Geez, its like you are just trying to come up with stuff to derail Marshall.

Dam8610
03-31-2009, 07:59 PM
The best TE tandem is?

Dustin Keller and...whoever...we end up adding to the roster...to be the second tight end?

Correct. .

BamaFalcon59
03-31-2009, 08:01 PM
I don't get the big deal for Marshall's ypc. 2 yards, is that really that big of a deal? No, it isn't. Geez, its like you are just trying to come up with stuff to derail Marshall.

2 yards is a big deal. That's like saying the difference between 4 yards per carry and 5 yards per carry isn't big. It is.

kalbears13
03-31-2009, 09:37 PM
When I first saw TE I was thinking "hey! the cleveland has a pretty good tandem...". Then I remembered they traded K2...

PoopSandwich
03-31-2009, 09:42 PM
When I first saw TE I was thinking "hey! the cleveland has a pretty good tandem...". Then I remembered they traded K2...

:[ we dun went and did that.

coordinator0
03-31-2009, 09:48 PM
I can't even be a homer with this thread lol, BAL WR's *** really bad. I'd say that DEN, NE, and PIT would be at the top of the list. NE would get the nod for my #1 though.

rockio42
03-31-2009, 10:34 PM
On of the question of TE's I think Tampa has the best core K2, Alex Smith, Jeremy Stevens...all of them are WR in TE bodies but that is still a great group (considering Stevens seems to have calmed down and straightened out a little)

LonghornsLegend
03-31-2009, 10:43 PM
Comments in bold.

Your reaching.


In Andre's 3rd season you do know he averaged 10.9 per catch right? His 4th year wasn't better at 11.1...In fact, year 4 he had over 100 catches but only 1100 yards and 5 TD's, that doesn't look anything like Marshall with 100 catches, nearly 1400 yards and 7 TD's in year 2 does it?



As far as Fitz, he gets touchdowns. I can live with a receiver who makes big plays (Andre) or catches a lot of touchdowns (Larry). But not one who does neither.


So Marshall does neither? That's news to me...Good to know that Andre gets a pass for all his "average" seasons though even though Marshall's career has started MUCH better, which leads back to my original point of you calling him overrated, yet AJ is so awesome.



There is really nothing of substance to hold onto to say that he's overrated at this point in his career, you can't cling to his YPC when he's a big possession WR who makes a living after the catch...It's not like his primary routes are downfield like guys like Jennings or White, he makes a living running after the catch.


Or maybe you can explain why Andre's YPC was below 11 numerous times, and what made him so different, because he's never been the type of WR that Marshall is, and frankly his career the first 3 years doesn't even compare to Marshall, in fact almost every WR's first 3 years don't add up to what Marshall did.

BamaFalcon59
03-31-2009, 11:09 PM
Your reaching.

No, I'm not.

In Andre's 3rd season you do know he averaged 10.9 per catch right? His 4th year wasn't better at 11.1...In fact, year 4 he had over 100 catches but only 1100 yards and 5 TD's, that doesn't look anything like Marshall with 100 catches, nearly 1400 yards and 7 TD's in year 2 does it?

And he was vastly overrated in those seasons. I was never a huge proprietor of AJ until this past season.

Also, Marshall has a much better situation around him.



So Marshall does neither? That's news to me...Good to know that Andre gets a pass for all his "average" seasons though even though Marshall's career has started MUCH better, which leads back to my original point of you calling him overrated, yet AJ is so awesome.

I wasn't an Andre fan till this past season. His production has always been overstated.


There is really nothing of substance to hold onto to say that he's overrated at this point in his career, you can't cling to his YPC when he's a big possession WR who makes a living after the catch...It's not like his primary routes are downfield like guys like Jennings or White, he makes a living running after the catch.

No, his yard per catch coupled with low touchdown totals is what makes him overrated. He is a possession receiver, he is 6'4" 230 but isn't a great redzone target. Hence the Keyshawn comparisons. Lots of receptions, not many touchdowns or big plays.

Or maybe you can explain why Andre's YPC was below 11 numerous times, and what made him so different, because he's never been the type of WR that Marshall is, and frankly his career the first 3 years doesn't even compare to Marshall, in fact almost every WR's first 3 years don't add up to what Marshall did.

For the third time, AJ's production has always been overrated. This past season he showed out, and I gave him his props. Also, Marshall is playing in a pass happy system with a top young QB. AJ had much less favorable circumstances.

thetedginnshow
03-31-2009, 11:11 PM
DePMv9grsUU

BamaFalcon59
03-31-2009, 11:19 PM
wait wait wait... marshall is OVERrated and we're comparing him to andre johnson and fitz? all righty.

it's also interesting that he isn't a great red zone target because he doesn't have a lot of tds. i'm sure that you, bamafalcon, watched enough broncos games to tell me about our red zone offense, and why marshall may have been ineffective in it. seriously. i'd really like to know if you're making a stupid, statistically based argument or if you actually think you have some idea what you're talking about.

i have no stake in a "marshall is great: check yes/no" argument. but when you're justifying your position with garbage arguments...

He's overrated as a whole. Lots of catches in an offense that has to use the pass game to substiture for no rushing attack.

He doesn't. Get off his nuts. I'm sure Bucs homers had Keyshawn's back back in the day. But the fact remains, more catches should equal more touchdowns. TO has said it, if a good receiver gets a 100 receptions he should get more touchdowns.

He is not a top five receiver, and I wouldn't put him top 10. He does what he does well, but he's not much better than a Marques Colston, who is a better redzone threat although not as good after the catch or deep.

BamaFalcon59
03-31-2009, 11:35 PM
and yet, your basis for comparison is two of the best wrs in the game. seems logical.

Longhorns brought up Andre's lack of TDs and Larry's YPC. I did not.

quote one place i've ever said he has a lot of tds.

You implied he was a redzone threat.

quote one place EVER where i've been "on his nuts."

Just assuming, you being a Broncos fan.

that has nothing to do with anything. but thanks for letting me know what you think of the bucs and keyshawn.

Yes it does. It is my Marshall comparison, rather than TO. Although Marshall is better after the catch than Johnson was.

so no, you didn't, in fact, watch any broncos games, and thus have no real idea why he doesn't have more tds. i'm glad we cleared that up. now we can all move on with our lives, knowing that you don't have the faintest clue what you're talking about.



hooray for opinions that are based solely on a stat sheet. i'm sure someone, somewhere cares that you think you can read a box score and derive meaning from it.

And yet you still can't prove me wrong.

Saints-Tigers
03-31-2009, 11:48 PM
Two yards is a pretty big deal.

Saints-Tigers
03-31-2009, 11:57 PM
Yes, because his 50 catches are comparable to guys catching 90+ balls while seeing constant doubles.

CC.SD
04-01-2009, 12:47 AM
This Marshall debate is still happening? come on now, he is a purebred and clearly one of the best in the league.

LonghornsLegend
04-01-2009, 12:54 AM
For the third time, AJ's production has always been overrated. This past season he showed out, and I gave him his props. Also, Marshall is playing in a pass happy system with a top young QB. AJ had much less favorable circumstances.

I say your reaching because your trying to nit pick bits and pieces of his game or his stats that you don't like, his TD totals are just fine for a player who has played 3 seasons.


It doesn't even have to be AJ, I just used him as an example of a great WR who had a low YPC, but you can take a look at Plaxico Burress' TD totals in the league: 0, 6, 7, 4, 5, 7 before he ever got to double digits.


Anquan Boldin didn't get to double digit TD's until his 6th season and has also had YPC's of 11.1, 11.7, and 12...So you can understand why I don't see why any of that makes Marshall overrated at least at this point.


You know you brought up the offensive scheme a few times yourself, it's obviously going to affect the YPC when Marshall catches alot of screen passes and hitch routes, when some other WR's are primarily running deep routes...Still, it makes no sense to put most of the credit on the offensive system as the reason why he got over 100 catches the past two seasons, teams are scheming to stop him so any WR that does that back to back seasons deserves his props.

FlyingElvis
04-01-2009, 07:07 AM
y'all must've thought pretty highly of ashley lelie after the 2004/2005 seasons.

I sure did. I waaayyyy overdrafted him on one of my fantasy teams in 06. Boy, what a mistake that was. Thankfully, however, I had the 1st overall and took LT and had Palmer as a keeper.




Wait, what were we talking about again?

BamaFalcon59
04-01-2009, 07:29 AM
and yet, it's still the apparent basis for comparison.

Of course, I didn't change the subject.

no, i didn't. i implied that you have no idea why his touchdown total is low or why he may not be an effective player inside the 20.

If he is an elite WR like some say, then the offense should get him the ball in the redzone.

i'm not a homer for ANY broncos player, nor have i ever been in the near 18,000 posts i've made on this site. but hey, if you're a homer, i must be one, too, eh?

Haha, ok. Never been a homer.

no, what i quoted was you saying "I'm sure Bucs homers had Keyshawn's back back in the day." which is in no way whatsoever relevant to any part of this discussion. no one cares what bucs fans thought of keyshawn. if you'd like to make the comparison, i would hope you intend to bring something other than box scores to the discussion.

Big WRs who have inflated stats due to wracking up short passes, but don't live up to their reputation of an elite receiver. Like I said, Marshall is good after the catch and on short routes. But he doesn't do the main thing top WRs do (TDs) and doesn't make big plays. And that's both on the boxscore and in the game.

and yet, i still haven't tried. but then, i don't really see the point in arguing with someone who bases their entire argument on what they found on nfl.com. the stats are what they are, and if you refuse to do any of the homework to learn how to interpret them, i don't find the conclusions you've made based on those stats particularly interesting or insightful.

That's fine. He's still overrated.

BamaFalcon59
04-01-2009, 07:35 AM
I say your reaching because your trying to nit pick bits and pieces of his game or his stats that you don't like, his TD totals are just fine for a player who has played 3 seasons.

Sure, for a good receiver. I never said he wasn't a good wide out, he's just not one of the top 5-10 like some people say. 226 receptions, 15 touchdowns.

It doesn't even have to be AJ, I just used him as an example of a great WR who had a low YPC, but you can take a look at Plaxico Burress' TD totals in the league: 0, 6, 7, 4, 5, 7 before he ever got to double digits.

And Burress has a high YPC for his career, and got those TDs on far fewer receptions.

Anquan Boldin didn't get to double digit TD's until his 6th season and has also had YPC's of 11.1, 11.7, and 12...So you can understand why I don't see why any of that makes Marshall overrated at least at this point.

That's a good point with Boldin. I'd say Boldin is also restricted from being 'elite', although he is one of my favorites in the game. To be 'elite' or 'dominant' a player needs to be the whole package. I'd place both Boldin outside the top 5, Marshall just inside the top 10 as far as receivers.

You know you brought up the offensive scheme a few times yourself, it's obviously going to affect the YPC when Marshall catches alot of screen passes and hitch routes, when some other WR's are primarily running deep routes...Still, it makes no sense to put most of the credit on the offensive system as the reason why he got over 100 catches the past two seasons, teams are scheming to stop him so any WR that does that back to back seasons deserves his props.


I credit him for getting receptions, and like I said he is very good. But he isn't the elite receiver some portray him as, he just doesn't make enough 'impact' plays.

Saints-Tigers
04-01-2009, 09:17 AM
I dunno why we even keep stats then, since they mean nothing. I know what you are getting at, you just come off as bitter and trying to make others look dumb, instead of proving your case.

I didn't say 2 yards is always a bad thing, but it's not like Marshall is in some totally dire situation.

He's a number 1 receiver with a good QB, a good second option to take some pressure off, and he gets plenty of balls thrown his way.

I know you just want to make us look like we don't watch the Broncos, or that stats aren't everything, but stats do mean something, especially if we are comparing guys in similar situations with similar roles(like Marshall, Calvin, Andre Johnson).

You always criticize other's arguments but never add your own, it's pretty cowardly.

captainjack27
04-01-2009, 09:23 AM
Marshall is a stud...I'd like to see him cut down on the drops though.

Saints-Tigers
04-01-2009, 09:30 AM
I've seen plenty of all of these players, I don't have to comment on guys I haven't seen.

Calling them comparable situations was actually being kind, Marshall has the best situation of the guys I mentioned.

I don't know why you come in a thread with no argument, but just to tell everyone they are wrong, and make assumptions about who we have or haven't watched.

fear the elf
04-01-2009, 11:09 AM
nm

moss and welker. i won't give reasons, because apparently everything i would say would be wrong...

E-Man
04-01-2009, 01:46 PM
Moss/Welker IMO. Moss is still elite, and Welker just had two consecutive 100+ catch seasons.

Wayne/Gonzalez comes close with that Indy offense, but Gonzalez is still in the early stages of his career. He's shown some really nice progress, but he's not on a Welker level yet. Wayne is definitely top tier IMO. He's becoming the AFC's Torry Holt. The guy that gets overlooked due to his offense, but has some sick skill.

Evans/T.O. can make a run at it this year. Lee Evans is a guy I've always liked, and I think adding T.O. to the mix would only open the field up more for him. T.O. might be declining, but he can still produce. They have a real shot to top the list.

Brandon Marshall and Eddie Royal are easily the best tandem in the AFC(and possibly NFL). But there are variables that keep them from being the best. How long before Marshall gets suspended for a lengthy period of time? Will Royal continue to show the great promise he has, or will he have a Michael Clayton type slump? Basically they're young so time will tell with them.

BamaFalcon59
04-01-2009, 04:02 PM
Blah
Blah
Blah

Ok, good to see you continue to add nothing to the discussion. You haven't said anything to anyone other than 'you are wrong'.

Gay Ork Wang
04-01-2009, 04:23 PM
i dont see how proving someone else wrong is not adding something to the argument...

Gay Ork Wang
04-01-2009, 04:28 PM
because on this site, people believe there's some unassailable quality to their own personal opinion and that it's near sacrilege to EVER call them on it. especially when they demonstrate that they don't have any idea what they're talking about.
proving an argument wrong is just one step to find the real answer. but no, it really never does anything!

JUICE da Block Captain
04-01-2009, 04:29 PM
because on this site, people believe there's some unassailable quality to their own personal opinion and that it's near sacrilege to EVER call them on it. especially when they demonstrate that they don't have any idea what they're talking about.

Is it the highlight of your day to attempt to assert your intellectual superiority over a bunch of high school kids? Or is just something you do out of habit now?

If your other 17,000 posts are anything like the few I've read, I feel sorry for you.

Gay Ork Wang
04-01-2009, 04:31 PM
Is it the highlight of your day to attempt to assert your intellectual superiority over a bunch of high school kids? Or is just something you do out of habit now?

If your other 17,000 posts are anything like the few I've read, I feel sorry for you.
how is that what he is doing any different from a normal discussion

JUICE da Block Captain
04-01-2009, 04:40 PM
how is that what he is doing any different from a normal discussion

Somebody would talk to you like this without the internet protecting their anonymity?

again, why should i make a case for a guy in a discussion with people who haven't yet demonstrated that they have the capacity to look beyond the stat sheet? at this point, i could spend half an hour discussing the broncos gameplan/offense and would literally just get "BUT ZOMG STATS" thrown back. it's frankly not worth my time.

at least you've proven you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and are solely basing your argument on stats. thanks for the clarification. i've told you several times why that makes for a garbage argument and you've shown several times that you have utterly no ability whatsoever to think in any other terms.

yet AGAIN, i'll suggest that you actually go back and watch a few broncos games from the past few years (nfl network occasionally shows them), then come back and we can discuss why marshall doesn't catch 4.5 million tds in the red zone.

Rude and disrespectful are two words that come to mind.

BamaFalcon59
04-01-2009, 04:56 PM
i dont see how proving someone else wrong is not adding something to the argument...

Proving someone wrong and saying someone is wrong are two different things. He has not proven me wrong, he has said I am wrong.

JUICE da Block Captain
04-01-2009, 04:59 PM
i don't much care what YOUR opinion is online or off. let me know when you've posted something that suggests you should be respected. lots of posters here have. and they didn't have to whine once about how mean i am, or pretend to be the "i'm so above it" internet tough guy.

but then, you've been banned more times than i can count on one hand, so you probably already knew that.

It wasn't me you disrespected.

Anyways, it doesn't change my opinion that it is pathetic and cowardly to talk like you do. I guarantee you would not speak to people like that in real life, so why turn e-thug on the internet? Have a debate, but don't be disrespectful or rude. It's even more troubling that you're a moderator here and adopt such an attitude since it is the exact behavior which should be looked down upon here.

brat316
04-01-2009, 05:02 PM
i'm always up for changing my opinions of players. At first I thought Stafford sucked, but now i'm okay with him, not sold on him but not gonna say he sucks. Then again this draft is pretty weak, and one of the most uninteresting in years.

BamaFalcon59
04-01-2009, 05:23 PM
no, i've that your opinion of the player is flawed, based on lack of observation. i'm still waiting for you to show you've ever seen him play. this is going on like, 6 posts where i've asked for the same thing and you've ducked and dodged the question, preferring to call me "mean" or whatever. i'm STILL waiting.

Where did I say you are mean? I really could care less. If being cool on here is your thing, go for it. I have said numerous times that he plays in a scheme designed to get him the ball in a position to make plays, but either way it doesn't matter. Top receivers don't score 6 times on over 100 receptions. And elite receivers make offenses give them the ball in the redzone, they are that good. Especially a 6'4" 230 pound receiver like Marshall.



I don't see any point in arguing with you. You haven't said anything to this point.

princefielder28
04-01-2009, 05:26 PM
I don't see any point in arguing with you. You haven't said anything to this point.

I hate to jump into this "argument" but why is Marshall overrated and have you seen him play because so far you've backed up your stance with plain statistics?

bored of education
04-01-2009, 05:30 PM
Marshall is someone defenses have to game plan for that alone makes him not overrated.

marshall didn't go to V Tech so he sucks!

jth1331
04-01-2009, 07:32 PM
I don't see any point in arguing with you. You haven't said anything to this point.

As NJX has tried to tell you, watch Bronco games and you will realize why he doesn't have the TD's Owens or Moss have. The Broncos red zone offense has stunk for I don't even know how long, and the focus was running the ball down there, not tossing it up to Marshall.

Saints-Tigers
04-01-2009, 08:37 PM
It's pointless to state an opinion with no statistical basis anyway, I can say that Brandon Marshall doesn't get as many TD's because his ball skills aren't as good in the red zone, and someone else can say it's the scheme. I can say he doesn't have a 14 ypc because he's not the deep threat the other guys are.

I can't prove it though, and someone can just say "lol no" and we'll go in circles forever arguing our opinions. It's just funny that I have this opinion from watching him and stats just HAPPEN to back it up.

Saints-Tigers
04-02-2009, 01:21 PM
He is a big play receiver, and a threat in the redzone, just not the threat of the other guys.(I'm thinking of Calvin in particular).

Bush is hard to compare because he's used so differently from other backs. Can you honestly say Marshall is used so differently from other guys?

jCut
04-02-2009, 06:50 PM
2 yards is a big deal. That's like saying the difference between 4 yards per carry and 5 yards per carry isn't big. It is.

You obviously don't watch any Broncos games. Last year, Marshall was hampered by a hip injury which took away some of his explosiveness. But, in 2007, he was by far the best receiver in the NFL after the catch. Stats don't say everything, you have to actually watch the games..

Saints-Tigers
04-02-2009, 08:10 PM
Anquan Boldin wants to speak with you.

Addict
04-02-2009, 08:53 PM
okay, who would u rather have on ur team: the Texans OL and David Carr or Dan Orlovsky and the Lions Line

wait, are you saying we had a line?

BamaFalcon59
04-02-2009, 09:23 PM
You obviously don't watch any Broncos games. Last year, Marshall was hampered by a hip injury which took away some of his explosiveness. But, in 2007, he was by far the best receiver in the NFL after the catch. Stats don't say everything, you have to actually watch the games..

Reading helps also.

I said he is great after the catch. That doesn't make him have a more diverse route tree or excel at deep to intermediate passes.

I could argue all day, but there's no point. Noone is going to change his or her mind.

GB12
04-02-2009, 09:28 PM
You obviously don't watch any Broncos games. Last year, Marshall was hampered by a hip injury which took away some of his explosiveness. But, in 2007, he was by far the best receiver in the NFL after the catch. Stats don't say everything, you have to actually watch the games..
Uh, no. That'd be Greg Jennings.

The Unseen
04-02-2009, 09:36 PM
Dennis Northcutt and Mike Walker

SimonRath
04-02-2009, 10:15 PM
no, you can quote stats all day, which is why you've failed utterly to respond to an actual argument. but it's not like i'm surprised. i knew you had no idea what you were talking about when you hit submit the first time.

ouchhhhhhhhh

Brodeur
04-02-2009, 10:17 PM
Dennis Northcutt and Mike Walker

I made that joke on Monday.

Saints-Tigers
04-02-2009, 10:39 PM
Uh, no. That'd be Greg Jennings.

Boldin would wipe his ass with Greg Jennings, and then use Brandon Marshall as his wet wipe.

Then he'll run you over, even if he has a broken face.

BamaFalcon59
04-02-2009, 10:43 PM
no, you can quote stats all day, which is why you've failed utterly to respond to an actual argument. but it's not like i'm surprised. i knew you had no idea what you were talking about when you hit submit the first time.

Haha. There hasn't been an actual arguement.

All you've said, in essence, is that Marshall doesn't have touchdowns because the playcalling was bad and they passed constantly in the redzone. Not a good reason. Please, get off the nutsack. The guy gets a TD every 15-20 receptions. That is pathetic.

And elite receivers dictate the offense towards them. If he was amazing enough at the fade, for example, the offense would go to him in the redzone. He obviously hasn't shown that capability to this point.

Fogartynyy2789
04-02-2009, 10:52 PM
Another knock on Marshall- for a guy with his size he should catch more passes in the middle. Could be his fault, could be the playcalling. Either way Moss and Welker are better then he and Royal.

And screw Northcutt and Walker, give me Schilens and Higgins.

BamaFalcon59
04-02-2009, 11:11 PM
and you've refuted NONE of that. you've simply shouted about stats, which you once again, don't actually understand at all because you have no idea how they originated. it's cool, i understand that you're scared of responding directly to the "ZOMG STATS" counter arguments, but you should just admit that you're a coward, and stop posting in this thread, instead of repeatedly making yourself look bad. better to simply walk away from an argument you're not actually capable of having than to continue to post the same garbage that was discredited pages ago.

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/attachments/4-6l-talk/3695d1074514651-haha-funny-pic-e-

It hasn't been proven wrong. The fact remains that he touched the ball more than all but two receivers, yet was tied for twenty second in touchdowns with six other players.

The guy is good on short routes where he can create on his own, but the other parts of his game just aren't there. Not an overwhelming deep threat, not a redzone threat, decent over the middle but not what he should be, and average (at best) hands. He's overrated. He plays in a system that plays perfectly into his best attributes and looks better because of it.

GB12
04-02-2009, 11:41 PM
Boldin would wipe his ass with Greg Jennings, and then use Brandon Marshall as his wet wipe.

Then he'll run you over, even if he has a broken face.

1. What the ****

2. What does Boldin have to do with anything?

3. In 2007 Greg Jennings had the best YAC of all WRs with at least 10 catches. That is a fact, it can't be argued. Jennings had an average of 7.5, which killed Marshall's 5.5. Marshall was near the top, but he still didn't come close to Jennings.

jenningsfan85
04-02-2009, 11:48 PM
couldnt find a thread on best wr core in nfl, only tandem in afc, the packers #5 ruvell martin would be the #1 in minn or chicago (nice weapon for cutler, err they have electric hester) driver has been the most underrated wr the last 5/6 years, jennings is easily a top 5 young wr and the best yac wr in the league, james jones is boldin jr and jordy nelson can run jump and catch even though hes white, making it much more impressive.

bears can have cutler, hester and ummm, well they can have those two.
ill take rodgers and the 5 pack.

Finz99
04-03-2009, 02:43 AM
I'd say best AFC Tandem is Ted Ginn Jr. and Greg Camarillo.....

oh wait...not even close.

In reality, as much as I hate to say it, Moss and Welker.

And not trying to rag on Marshall, but after watching (yes, I did watch it) the whole Miami Dolphins vs. Denver Broncos game, I lost a lot of respect for Marshall. I can't stand it when players act like T.O. on and off the field.

awfullyquiet
04-03-2009, 04:50 AM
bamafalcons hasn't been dismantled yet for being a complete troll?

sure, he has 8k posts, but has he said anything useful?

not much. jennings is still better than marshall. marshall is kinda stupid, not giong to lie... he's not the brightest book on the shelf... i wish i had distance tracker kinda like what they do with devin hester on returns with brandon mizzarshall.

El Peefs?????
04-03-2009, 05:09 AM
Ill take Matt Jones and a rolled up 20 dollar bill.

BamaFalcon59
04-03-2009, 11:16 AM
bamafalcons hasn't been dismantled yet for being a complete troll?

sure, he has 8k posts, but has he said anything useful?

not much. jennings is still better than marshall. marshall is kinda stupid, not giong to lie... he's not the brightest book on the shelf... i wish i had distance tracker kinda like what they do with devin hester on returns with brandon mizzarshall.

Still bitter over BC getting beat by VT, and Darren Evans proving you wrong. It's ok, time heals all.

:rolleyes: random crappy images. i can post stupid pictures, too, but my argument doesn't need them.

I know, you can make insults with your type.

again, all you've done is quote that one stat. i quoted TWO examples of where stats were a crappy measure of a player's ability because of the situation. and all you do is continue to post the same stats without taking any part of his gameplay into account. all that you've shown is that you can incorrectly interpret a score sheet. which is cool and all, but is hardly productive.

I've actually quoted multiple. And unless you edit his player page, the arguement stands.

the other parts of the game haven't been there because shanahan never called them. in fact, in the san diego game i referenced, there were, iirc, 3 passes to marshall deep. cutler missed on each of them. it's not because marshall "couldn't make a big play," it's because he was over/under thrown. but then, that's not reflected in your precious little box scores, so it must not be relevant.

Did it ever occur to you that Shanahan, an offensive genius, didn't call them because Marshall's skills were not suited to them. It's not like Shanahan was opposed to a vertical passing game. When Lelie was there he made him run deep routes because that was what he was good at. Marshall hasn't shown that capabilty. If he does show it, I'll concede.

It's akin to draftniks saying runninbacks don't have good hands, even if they haven't been thrown at often. The lack of production in that area doesn't neccessarily prove that he has bad hands, but it needs to be proven. A player doesn't have a capability until he proves it, otherwise what use is it?

addressed above. i'm curious if you can even talk about why without quoting the same ypc stat that i've repeatedly shown is worthless in this case.

And again, I'm not going to say he has the ability to be a deep threat until he proves it. If he has the capability, he definitely hasn't showed it. And that means he lacks that dimension to his game. Same with his redzone skills.

yeah, what a crappy player. he should've been calling his own number when shanahan kept calling for dives up the middle. boy. if only he could've you know, run a route. again, the ONLY evidence you have here is a low touchdown total. and i've AGAIN repeatedly told you why it's a worthless stat. do yourself a favor, and go find some tape. then we can have a real discussion.

If Marshall had great fade route ability they would have given him more opportunities. Shanahan is not an idiot, if he had a player with great jump ball or redzone ability he would surely utilize it. Again, if Marshall gos out and pulls in 10 TDs this season I'll change my stance. He won't be a great redzone threat till he proves it.

what, exactly, should he be?

With his size he should be a great, proven redzone threat.

100% true.



depends how you rate him. but i've not once suggested he's a lock for best receiver in the game.



as do almost all of the best players. tom brady looks a lot better in new england than he would have in the jake plummer offense in denver. marshall faulk looked a lot better in st. louis than he would have in a smashmouth run offense. does that somehow make them worse players?

Players like Brady and Faulk showed the ability to succeed in multiple ways. Brady succeeded in a traditional pro style offense, as well as a spread. Showed the ability to make every throw. Faulk was not a horse as far aspower, but he had the total package. Thus far Marshall hasn't shown many dimensions to his game.



The fact is, although some believe Marshall has those dimensions, he hasn't proven it. I may believe Jerious Norwood is a great inside runner, but we only utilize him on tosses so it is a mute point.

Sniper
04-03-2009, 11:39 AM
bamafalcons hasn't been dismantled yet for being a complete troll?

sure, he has 8k posts, but has he said anything useful?

I was about to post "ZOMGZ VIRGINIA TECH IS AWEZOME!!!!!!!!!ELEVENTYFOUR!!!!!!!!" and then...

Still bitter over BC getting beat by VT, and Darren Evans proving you wrong. It's ok, time heals all.

Too predictable. Tell me more about how Evans is an elite back with his super duper 4.4 ypc.

bored of education
04-03-2009, 11:46 AM
Dwayne Bowe > bamaFalcon ****! :D

Gay Ork Wang
04-03-2009, 11:57 AM
wait, are you saying we had a line?
well they certainly looked good against the bears pass rush.

BamaFalcon59
04-03-2009, 04:54 PM
i'd assume then, that you'd be willing to make the argument that reggie bush is by far the worst starting running back in the nfl. given his stats. which is ALL you've quoted thus far. you've said nothing that suggests you've looked any deeper, and in fact have many times suggested that you ONLY need to see the stat sheet. so no, you've really made ONE argument, that consists SOLELY of quoting his TD numbers and his ypr numbers. neither is a compelling argument, neither has been a compelling argument. especially when stacked against, you know, actually seeing a guy play.

I've seen Reggie Bush play many times, and he is a horrible runningback as far as running the ball. He is an excellent receiver out of the backfield, and his stats reflect that. Also a good punt returner, stats show that. Poor arguement.

it hasn't occured to me once over the past decade that shanahan WAS an offensive genius, no. but then, i've actually bothered watching a game or two. so the fact that you again have no idea what you're talking about doesn't surprise me.

Considering the points he put up, I'll stick with my opinion.

no, it's because he wasn't capable of running any other routes. what's funny is that in all this "offensive genius" crap, shanahan kept calling a route that plummer wasn't capable of throwing. it's not like he's called plays to the offenses strength at any point since TD left.

How do you know he can effectively run other routes? He hasn't done it to this point.

no you won't, because you'd actually have to watch a game to see it. otherwise, you'll just twist some new stats to suggest that you somehow know what you're talking about.

Blah blah blah.

only if said draftniks have seen that player. otherwise, it's mindless drivel.



which has no relevance to their ability to catch.

If a RB like Knowshon, who has excellent hands, had Chris Wells type receiving numbers, then that would be a negative in his game, no matter his hands. Marshall's lack of productivity in the deep game or in the redzone hasn't been proven, therefor it is not a positive. He is not a complete WR if he hasn't been effective in anything other than these YAC routes.

thanks for making my own argument for me. let me know when you actually watch marshall, then we can talk about proof, which DOES NOT COME SOLELY FROM STATS.

Not just stats. If the RB hasn't been thrown at, then it is an unknown if he has great hands. That is generally a negative. Marshall hasn't shown the ability to be productive in many facets. You may keep saying he hasn't done it because of..., but the point is he hasn't done it and because of that is not the total package.

and yet, the only proof you're willing to accept is in the stat lines. again, let me know the next time you actually see a broncos game, and we might be able to have a reasonable discussion. until then, you quite frankly don't have any idea what you're talking about and you're request for "proof" is silly at best.

Yawn. You say he can do it, but he has not. Right now it is just your belief that he has the ability to be productive on an expanded route tree.

what, exactly, are you basing this on? it's certainly not from watching the team over the last several years when he would repeatedly call tatum bell up the middle against, say, the jaguars when they had henderson and stroud. what a brilliant play caller. he sure knew how to take advantage of his personnel. :rolleyes:

Again, proving my point. He didn't make the call. I'll trust Shanahan's ability as a possible Hall of Fame coach over your resume as a fan. If Marshall was that great at using his body he would have made the calls.

again, all you're doing here is proving that you don't have any idea what you're talking about and further, how valuable it is to actually watch a team play before opening your mouth to talk about them.



and unless you actually see how he does it, that will be just as asinine as suggesting he sucks right now.

No, because if a team throws the ball 600 times and you catch 100 balls you should get more than 6 touchdowns, no matter where the ball is being caught at.

yet again, try, you know, WATCHING a game. you might actually see some proof there.

Yet again, you holding the belief that he can do it doesn't mean he can or has done it.

:rolleyes:

he should have exactly 10 tds a season. because that somehow proves he's a red zone threat, right? i mean, what if they're all 21 yard passes and have nothing to do with the red zone? as long as he has 10 tds you're ok with it? that'll make him elite? how do you not see any of this as a stupid, illogical argument? or are you just in so deep now that you can't make yourself admit that your argument is illogical and your "evidence" (so-called) is weak?

It's just a number. 100 receptions should round out to about 10 touchdowns. A receiver with 80 receptions would be fine with less than that. TD to reception ratio.

which you know because he doesn't have 10 tds, right? or is this because he doesn't average 75 ypr? :rolleyes:

Which you know because you believe it, right? At least my arguement has some hard evidence, yours is based on your belief (that he has multiple dimensions to his game) and nothing else. The only difference is that I believe he can't, and have stats to go along with it.

it's a "moot" point, but if you've seen norwood make a great play as an inside runner often enough, then that argument would certainly have merit. even if it wasn't supported statistically. but then, i'm sure you believe that matt ryan is mediocre at best, given his statistical rankings from last season. no doubt you'd never take actually seeing him make certain throws into account, because the stat sheet says he was just barely average. :rolleyes:

But he is not an effective inside runner often enough, just like Marshall hasn't been an effective RZ receiver or deep receiver often enough.

As for Ryan, he had argueable top 10 statistics as a rookie, and far better numbers than the average rookie. Stats only back my opinion on him up.

your "stats are the only thing that matters" argument gets sillier and sillier with each passing post.

And all you have is 'I believe...'.


And do you rolleyes enough?

Gay Ork Wang
04-04-2009, 05:09 AM
how can someone be so in love with stats

jCut
04-04-2009, 07:37 PM
yeah, but if you count all the yards marshall gained running sideways, he'd have been at like, 45.5 yac.

Or backwards. lol

jth1331
04-06-2009, 10:25 PM
I still can't believe we are still having an argument over Brandon Marshall in this thread.
And he can be a deep threat, its just that the offensive gameplan has never been centered around the deep ball. It is a west coast offense, with short routes, and a good running game. Watch the first Denver-San Diego game last year, and see how Marshall abused San Diego all game long, with different routes, INCLUDING A FADE TD.

datchapin
04-09-2009, 08:05 PM
I think I would give it to Owens and Evans. I think Owens is a more complete receiver than Moss when it comes to run blocking. Also I think Evans can stretch the field with the best of them, maybe I'm biased cuz' he burned my team for 2 80 yd. scores in one game..... ouch. All that being said as a tandem I think this pair can hurt you in the most ways.

The homer in me wants to throw Andre Johnson in the conversation, but really that wouldn't be right. AJ's our linchpin and really anyone you plug in would have a good chance to have success. Plus with O.D. being so successful our receiving game doesn't only rely on the tandem philosophy. AJ still rocks though.

I've read alot of the Marshall argument and couldn't help but throw some logs on the fire. How much of Marshall's success was based on Cutler? Cutler and Marshall came into the league at the same time and Cutler has proven he's a good QB, how will Marshall (and Royal for that matter) do without him? Also please don't insult Cutler by comparing him to Carr, that is so....sooo unfair to Cutler. I say this cuz I saw someone comparing AJ and BM's first few seasons. Talking about an elite WR excelling regardless of who's throwing him the ball is a BS argument. If that were the case where was Mr. White of the Falcons last yr.?

Anyways, talking about Shanahan and his so called crap play calling for Marshall resulting in his low YPC. Didn't Ashley Lelie rank near the top for YPC in the same system a few yrs. ago with Plumber throwing to him? Considering that the Broncos ranked so high offensively this yr. wouldn't logic dictate that Marshall's YPC attribute to that production?

Another thing in a tandem doesn't the guy on the other side demand attention as well taking pressure off each other? AJ doesn't have that luxury and never has, imagine if he wasn't doubled or had so much coverage rolled his way, wouldn't that create space for him to create after the catch. The beauty of tandems is that they create space for YAC. So while Marshall's YAC is all well and good, I don't know if I would label it "elite"

hehehe, feeding the flames is kinda fun.