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View Full Version : Who are the current "Franchise Quaterbacks"


BmoreBlackByrdz
04-09-2009, 01:39 PM
I think we can all agree that Quaterback is the most important position in the game of football. So that brings me to the thought, how many teams are actually set at QB?
Heres a list of every team and who they have at QB.

I bolded the teams that I think have there guy and are set for the future and

The guys in italics are the ones that are still good quaterbacks and will do enough to win games but aren't the longterm answer for there respective teams.

I underlined the youngers QB's who still have the jury out on them, they have the potential but haven't put it all together yet. And for the ones that aren't in any font just suck for are too old.

Buffalo Bills - Trent Edwards
Miami Dolphins - Chad Pennington
New York Jets - Kellen Clemens/Brett Ratliff
New England Patriots - Tom Brady
Baltimore Ravens - Joe Flacco
Cincinnatti Bengals - Carson Palmer
Cleveland Browns - Brady Quinn/Derek Anderson
Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben Roethlisberger
Houston Texans - Matt Schaub
Indianapolis Colts - Peyton Manning
Jacksonville Jaguars - David Garrarrd
Tennessee Titans - Kerry Collins
Denver Broncos - Kyle Orton/Chris Simms
Kansas City Chiefs - Matt Cassel
Oakland Raiders - Jamarcus Russell
San Deigo Chargers - Phillip Rivers
NFC
New York Giants - Eli Manning
Dallas Cowboys - Tony Romo
Philedelphia Eagles - Donovan McNabb
Washington Redskins - Jason Campbell
Chicago Bears - Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions - Daunte Cullpeper
Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings - Tarvaris Jackson/Sage Roesnfels
Atlanta Falcons - Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers - Jake Delhomme
New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Bucaneers - Luke McCown
Arizona Cardnails - Kurt Warner
St. Louis Rams - Marc Bulger
San Francisco 49ers - Shaun Hill/Alex Smith
Seattle Seahawks - Matt Hasselbeck
So heres my list of the current franchise QB's in the game right now
Trent Edwards
Tom Brady
Joe Flacco
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Matt Schaub
Phillip Rivers
Eli Manning
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Jay Cutler
What are your thoughts? You don't have to re-write the whole list, just list your franchise QB's.

tylerb929
04-09-2009, 01:41 PM
You seriously don't think Peyton Manning is a franchise QB?

stephenson86
04-09-2009, 01:42 PM
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning

I only think they are franchise QB's for me the rest havent done enough to prove that the franchise needs them to be successful

Sniper
04-09-2009, 01:43 PM
You seriously don't think Peyton Manning is a franchise QB?

I can't speak for him, but perhaps he was thinking that Manning doesn't have many seasons left.

Im_a_Romosexual
04-09-2009, 01:44 PM
he's 33 he has at least 5 seasons left

disagree with Shaub and Edwards

BmoreBlackByrdz
04-09-2009, 01:45 PM
You seriously don't think Peyton Manning is a franchise QB?


Well he is still one of the better QB's in the leauge, arguably top 2, but with the loss of Dungy and Harrison and him having a slow start last year, plus he's 33 so I could see him slowly start to decline. One thing is for sure, the Colts should soon start to groom his replacement.

bored of education
04-09-2009, 01:46 PM
Matt Cassel :D

bendert58
04-09-2009, 01:46 PM
he's 33 he has at least 5 seasons left

disagree with Shaub and Edwards

I'd take Peyton at 33 over Tom Brady at 31 who is coming off of a MAJOR injury

Mr. Hero
04-09-2009, 01:47 PM
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning

I only think they are franchise QB's for me the rest havent done enough to prove that the franchise needs them to be successful

Does eli have to orchestrate 4th quarter comebacks every week of the season en route to another superbowl to make that list?

stephenson86
04-09-2009, 01:48 PM
Does eli have to orchestrate 4th quarter comebacks every week of the season en route to another superbowl to make that list?

i just think that the team is talented enough without him to perform, for me he isnt the be all and end all of the franchise...come to think of it i only really consider peyton manning an irreplacable QB

The Dynasty
04-09-2009, 01:48 PM
There is no jury for Tarvaris and Sage. They are not franchise QB's.

bendert58
04-09-2009, 01:49 PM
There is no jury for Tarvaris and Sage. They are not franchise QB's.

Hahaha agreed.

eaglesalltheway
04-09-2009, 01:51 PM
Who didn't expect a major homerfest...?

Dr. Gonzo
04-09-2009, 01:53 PM
There is no jury for Tarvaris and Sage. They are not franchise QB's.

But the jury is still out on the futurezzz JDB.

stephenson86
04-09-2009, 01:54 PM
But the jury is still out on the futurezzz JDB.

theres no jury out on him everyone quietly knows he is jim sorgi's understudy

BmoreBlackByrdz
04-09-2009, 01:57 PM
There is no jury for Tarvaris and Sage. They are not franchise QB's.

very true, but Jackson doesn't need to "play" like a franchise QB. He's on a loaded team with a great defense and top 3 run game. All he has to do is manage the offense, make smart throws, and most importantly, not turn the ball over. If he can do the little things, they will easily win more games.

bored of education
04-09-2009, 02:00 PM
What makes Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan and Matt Cassel all franchise qbs or questions? They only have one year of starting. Does that mean they are a question or not frnachise. I think for players with only one year of starting experience means the jury is still out.

Malaka
04-09-2009, 02:01 PM
I disagree with Edwards he should at the very most just be underlined.

Schaub isn't and never will be a franchise QB, he will a pretty good one, but one injured at least 2 weeks a season.

I want to see another year of Flacco before I label a franchise QB.

P.S Even if Peyton if 33, how the hell is he not a franchise QB, Favre has lasted till he was 39, Peyton is en route to break Favre's consecutive games played streak and he is still at the top of his game. So I truly don't get how he isn't a franchise QB.

bendert58
04-09-2009, 02:01 PM
What makes Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan and Matt Cassel all franchise qbs or questions? They only have one year of starting. Does that mean they are a question or not frnachise. I think for players with only one year of starting experience means the jury is still out.

I totally agree. Everyone is so sold on Matt Ryan. Yeah he had one amazing year, but its only been one year! Wait till the rest of the NFL has even more film on him.

Brothgar
04-09-2009, 02:04 PM
Well he is still one of the better QB's in the leauge, arguably top 2, but with the loss of Dungy and Harrison and him having a slow start last year, plus he's 33 so I could see him slowly start to decline. One thing is for sure, the Colts should soon start to groom his replacement.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02032007/photos/sports055.jpg


The Future

stephenson86
04-09-2009, 02:13 PM
http://www.nypost.com/seven/02032007/photos/sports055.jpg


The Future

national treasure 3 is based on page 47 of the presidents book

page 47 of the presidents book is a clue to the location of jim sorgi's jock strap

vidae
04-09-2009, 02:17 PM
Yeah, like most people have said, Peyton is the epitome of a franchise QB. And Trent Edwards is far from a sure thing. I thought most Bills fans weren't very kind in their praise of him lately?

My franchise QBs would be:

Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Tom Brady
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Big Ben
Donovan McNabb

I'd put Rodgers, Quinn, Ryan, Flacco, Cassel, Edwards, Romo and Russel as up and coming QBs who can potentially be the future for their teams.

I'm sure I left someone off but meh.

Splat
04-09-2009, 02:20 PM
So the MVP of the whole NFL from last year is not a "Franchise" QB any more?

Mr. Hero
04-09-2009, 02:23 PM
Yeah, like most people have said, Peyton is the epitome of a franchise QB. And Trent Edwards is far from a sure thing. I thought most Bills fans weren't very kind in their praise of him lately?

My franchise QBs would be:

Peyton Manning
Eli Manning
Tom Brady
Jay Cutler
Philip Rivers
Carson Palmer
Drew Brees
Big Ben
Donovan McNabb

I'd put Rodgers, Quinn, Ryan, Flacco, Cassel, Edwards, Romo and Russel as up and coming QBs who can potentially be the future for their teams.

I'm sure I left someone off but meh.

Trent wasn't the same after his concussion, he seemed a lot more flustered and to be rushing. If he can get back to the guy before that injury I think he can be a franchise QB, not an Elite QB but a guy who can lead a good team.

As for Eli not being irreplaceable, his understanding of the offense and ability to drive us down the field whenever we need a score make him irreplaceable to us, sure we'd rather have Peyton or Brady, but if you replaced eli with a league average starting QB we'd barely be a playoff contender, with eli we're a superbowl contender.

Malaka
04-09-2009, 02:30 PM
Trent wasn't the same after his concussion, he seemed a lot more flustered and to be rushing. If he can get back to the guy before that injury I think he can be a franchise QB, not an Elite QB but a guy who can lead a good team.

As for Eli not being irreplaceable, his understanding of the offense and ability to drive us down the field whenever we need a score make him irreplaceable to us, sure we'd rather have Peyton or Brady, but if you replaced eli with a league average starting QB we'd barely be a playoff contender, with eli we're a superbowl contender.

Eli has come along way from being the inconsistent QB he once was. He has definitely settled down, from the 24 TDs 24 INT guy he used to be, don't quote me on exact totals but I believe last year he had 23 TDs and 10 INTs if he can put that up for the rest of his career I'll be just fine calling Eli a franchise QB.

Somse
04-09-2009, 02:33 PM
Eli has come along way from being the inconsistent QB he once was. He has definitely settled down, from the 24 TDs 24 INT guy he used to be, don't quote me on exact totals but I believe last year he had 23 TDs and 10 INTs if he can put that up for the rest of his career I'll be just fine calling Eli a franchise QB.

To be fair he's only had one year where he was "settled down". I think Eli is more of product of the Giants' success than the other way around.

Malaka
04-09-2009, 02:40 PM
To be fair he's only had one year where he was "settled down". I think Eli is more of product of the Giants' success than the other way around.

If you look at the Giants last year he played as inconsistent as ever with 24 TDs and I believe 21 INTs. But once he got into the playoffs he had 6 TDs and 1 INT and lead the Giants, who were underdogs every single game to victories in Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay. Then in the Super Bowl came his only INT off a tipped pass. With the Eli playing at a high level the Giants were the best team in the NFL, and I will say it up until Plaxico shot himself they were last year too.

I think it is like with lack of a better word, an ecosystem kind of thing, where they both benefit off one another, when Eli plays well the Giants are one of the best teams in the league, when he doesn't they are merely a decent team. I truly believe that after the Super Bowl run, that Eli has finally settled down and although he won't ever be Peyton Manning throwing 40 TDs, thats perfectly fine if he gets us Ws with a 20 TDs and 10 INTs that is still a franchise QB.

soybean
04-09-2009, 02:41 PM
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Phillip Rivers
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning

I only think they are franchise QB's for me the rest havent done enough to prove that the franchise needs them to be successful

same can be said of roethlisberger. He did win that last superbowl for them, but regardless, i think the steelers would be a top team with or without him.

stephenson86
04-09-2009, 02:42 PM
same can be said of roethlisberger. He did win that last superbowl for them, but regardless, i think the steelers would be a top team with or without him.

if you read my last post i think that peyton manning is the true franchise QB of the NFL, literally i think he is the most important QB if not player to all teams in the NFL

Somse
04-09-2009, 02:43 PM
If you look at the Giants last year he played as inconsistent as ever with 24 TDs and I believe 21 INTs. But once he got into the playoffs he had 6 TDs and 1 INT and lead the Giants, who were underdogs every single game to victories in Tampa, Dallas, and Green Bay. Then in the Super Bowl came his only INT off a tipped pass. With the Eli playing at a high level the Giants were the best team in the NFL, and I will say it up until Plaxico shot himself they were last year too.

I think it is like with lack of a better word, an ecosystem kind of thing, where they both benefit off one another, when Eli plays well the Giants are one of the best teams in the league, when he doesn't they are merely a decent team. I truly believe that after the Super Bowl run, that Eli has finally settled down and although he won't ever be Peyton Manning throwing 40 TDs, thats perfectly fine if he gets us Ws with a 20 TDs and 10 INTs that is still a franchise QB.

Kyle Orton had 18 TDs and 12 INTs on a much less talented Bears offense. Sure, Eli Manning is technically a "franchise quarterback" but I think you expect your franchise quarterback to be elite, which he isn't.

BmoreBlackByrdz
04-09-2009, 02:44 PM
A franchise QB doesn't have to put up 4000+ yards and 30+ TD's year in and year our. A franchise QB is someone who knows his offense and the team well. Someone who the team can rely on to win games and make smart throws and not turn the ball over. If he understands the offense and does a good job managing the game which in turn leads to more W's he's a franchise QB in my books. And yeah, I was probably wrong about Peyton Manning, I guess I put too much thought into this age and forgot how good he really is. I'll change that.

Fogartynyy2789
04-09-2009, 02:45 PM
Kyle Orton had 18 TDs and 12 INTs on a much less talented Bears offense. I think you need to ask for more out of Eli Manning than 20/10 if you're going to call him a franchise quarterback. Then again, my list of franchise quarterbacks might be a lot shorter than yours.

I think Eli's 2007 playoffs is enough, we don't have to ask him for anything else.

Somse
04-09-2009, 02:46 PM
A franchise QB doesn't have to put up 4000+ yards and 30+ TD's year in and year our. A franchise QB is someone who knows his offense and the team well. Someone who the team can rely on to win games and make smart throws and not turn the ball over. If he understands the offense and does a good job managing the game which in turn leads to more W's he's a franchise QB in my books. And yeah, I was probably wrong about Peyton Manning, I guess I put too much thought into this age and forgot how good he really is. I'll change that.

By that definition, Kyle Orton is a franchise quarterback. So was Trent Dilfer back when he played for the Ravens.

Malaka
04-09-2009, 02:47 PM
Kyle Orton had 18 TDs and 12 INTs on a much less talented Bears offense. Sure, Eli Manning is technically a "franchise quarterback" but I think you expect your franchise quarterback to be elite, which he isn't.

There are many ways to look at this Trent Dilfer does not > Dan Marino because of his ring, but at the same time if Big Ben is considered a franchise QB with a 15 TD 15 INT stat line his only great season was 07', with his 2 SB rings then I think Eli Manning has to make the list. Same goes to Terry Bradshaw he is still considered a great QB with his 4 SB rings, but he never had amazing stats.

Splat
04-09-2009, 02:54 PM
If the question was who could be a Franchise QB Trent Edwards would be on the list but the question was who are the current franchise QB's and he doesn't make that list.

Mr. Hero
04-09-2009, 02:57 PM
Look let's not argue about eli because unless you watch him and see how he takes over in the clutch for our team you won't appreciate him, not with stats, not with previous success, etc. What makes eli a great QB is that we're never out of it with him under center, we can always comeback. Now that our D is strength he doesn't have too play from behind as much so you don't see him taking over as often, but he moves the offense in crunch time like few QBs in this league can.

Somse
04-09-2009, 02:58 PM
There are many ways to look at this Trent Dilfer does not > Dan Marino because of his ring, but at the same time if Big Ben is considered a franchise QB with a 15 TD 15 INT stat line his only great season was 07', with his 2 SB rings then I think Eli Manning has to make the list. Same goes to Terry Bradshaw he is still considered a great QB with his 4 SB rings, but he never had amazing stats.

Big Ben has been much more efficient and consistent than Eli Manning, which is what separates the two.

Fogartynyy2789
04-09-2009, 03:02 PM
Big Ben has been much more efficient and consistent than Eli Manning, which is what separates the two.

If you take away Ben's 2007 they're just as efficient. Both win games, both are clutch, both benefit from great running games and defenses. There is no way you can call Roethlisberger a franchise QB without calling Eli one.

Malaka
04-09-2009, 03:03 PM
Big Ben has been much more efficient and consistent than Eli Manning, which is what separates the two.

Where is the proof of that?

Big Ben has had only 1 amazing season 07' 32 TDs 11 INTs. He has 2 SB rings but you can argue that both could have been won without him. Big Ben has been just as inconsistent posting 17 TD 15 INT season this year and also an 18 TD 23 INT season before 07'

Eli has had similar production on a worse team, also more TDs every year except his rookie year, and with out him the Giants would not have won a SB. Also if the Giants were less of a run happy team, and had a competent receiver other than Plaxico Burress Eli would have had a much better statistical year last year.

You cannot say Big Ben has been more consistent and efficient because that is not true, that point is moot.

Mr. Hero
04-09-2009, 03:05 PM
If you take away Ben's 2007 they're just as efficient. Both win games, both are clutch, both benefit from great running games and defenses. There is no way you can call Roethlisberger a franchise QB without calling Eli one.

In fact Eli's better command of his offense and overall higher football IQ makes him a fair bit higher IMO than Roethlisberger, although Big Ben shares my first name, is a fellow Motorcycling enthusiast and with his gunslingerness is pretty much the QB i'd be if I had the skills to make it to the NFL, so I do like him and root for him, but Eli's just better, smarter and more dependable.

Somse
04-09-2009, 03:14 PM
Ben Roethlisberger:
http://i43.tinypic.com/30vg37q.jpg

Eli Manning:
http://i40.tinypic.com/ztghh3.jpg

Roethlisberger has:

More passing yards on 379 less attempts
62.4% completion percentage versus 55.9%
7.9 yards per pass average versus 6.4
89.4 QB rating versus 76.1 QB rating


Other than 2008, Manning turned the ball over too much and was inefficient as you can tell from his low yards per pass average and completion percentage.

Clearly, Roethlisberger is a more efficient quarterback.

BmoreBlackByrdz
04-09-2009, 03:34 PM
By that definition, Kyle Orton is a franchise quarterback. So was Trent Dilfer back when he played for the Ravens.

Dilfer is a different story. That 2000 Defense was just something amazing. Dan Orlovsky could have led that team to the Super Bowl. As for Orton, his defense was a dissapointment and he had very little weapons to work with. Olsen was the only legit option in the pass game and Hester still isn't polished. I do believe Orton can lead a team to the Super Bowl, but he'll need a good defense supporting him and some weapons to work with. Look at Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan, Flacco had a top 5 run game and the #2 overall defense and Matt Ryan had the #2 run game and a pro bowl WR. The fact is, alot of QB's possess the ability to lead teams to the playoffs, they just need a solid supporting cast, but there are QB's (Brady, Brees, Rivers) who can take a team with nothing, and make then contenders. That is what seperates most QB's.

art vandelay
04-09-2009, 03:34 PM
I wouldn't say Trent is a franchise QB yet but he definitely has the potential to be. The Bills organization is very high on him and think he is the future. During our 5-0 start, Trent had MVP talk going on.

Somse
04-09-2009, 03:39 PM
I wouldn't say Trent is a franchise QB yet but he definitely has the potential to be. The Bills organization is very high on him and think he is the future. During our 5-0 start, Trent had MVP talk going on.

Huh?

First of all the Bills started 4-0. Second of all, Trent Edwards has never even been on the radar for MVP. He didn't throw for over 300 yards ONCE last season. He had ONE multiple TD game when he threw 2 TDs. The Bills offense is also about as stagnant as you can get.

Somse
04-09-2009, 03:40 PM
Dilfer is a different story. That 2000 Defense was just something amazing. Dan Orlovsky could have led that team to the Super Bowl. As for Orton, his defense was a dissapointment and he had very little weapons to work with. Olsen was the only legit option in the pass game and Hester still isn't polished. I do believe Orton can lead a team to the Super Bowl, but he'll need a good defense supporting him and some weapons to work with. Look at Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan, Flacco had a top 5 run game and the #2 overall defense and Matt Ryan had the #2 run game and a pro bowl WR. The fact is, alot of QB's possess the ability to lead teams to the playoffs, they just need a solid supporting cast, but there are QB's (Brady, Brees, Rivers) who can take a team with nothing, and make then contenders. That is what seperates most QB's.

So why did you just go on a rant about how you don't need to put up good stats (like Brady, Brees, Rivers, etc.) to be a franchise quarterback? Your two posts seem to be arguing complete opposites.

Mr. Hero
04-09-2009, 03:41 PM
Ben Roethlisberger:
http://i43.tinypic.com/30vg37q.jpg

Eli Manning:
http://i40.tinypic.com/ztghh3.jpg

Roethlisberger has:

More passing yards on 379 less attempts
62.4% completion percentage versus 55.9%
7.9 yards per pass average versus 6.4
89.4 QB rating versus 76.1 QB rating


Other than 2008, Manning turned the ball over too much and was inefficient as you can tell from his low yards per pass average and completion percentage.

Clearly, Roethlisberger is a more efficient quarterback.

Look if you're going to use stats this a pointless argument. There's no stat that measures a QB's ability to drive his team for a score in the clutch, so there's no way to measure eli's greatest strength. Like I've said I like Big Ben, but he doesn't command his offense the way eli does his, granted he takes more shots down the field and has been successful doing so so his stats are more impressive but watching those two operate it's clear that eli's the one who runs his team better. Roethlisberger's the better weapon but eli's the better tactician and that makes him a better leader and QB. *shrug* comparing QBs is such a subjective debate that there's really no point, but if you consider one a franchise QB you have to consider the other one as well.

art vandelay
04-09-2009, 03:46 PM
Huh?

First of all the Bills started 4-0. Second of all, Trent Edwards has never even been on the radar for MVP. He didn't throw for over 300 yards ONCE last season. He had ONE multiple TD game when he threw 2 TDs. The Bills offense is also about as stagnant as you can get.

Yeah 5-0 was a typo. But Edwards was on the MVP watch during our hot start. I remember Edwards was a guest on PTI and he was asked about it.

He is awesome in the clutch, I think he was top 5 in 4th quarter QB percentage last year and he has already lead us to multiple comeback wins. Owner Ralph Wilson Jr. loves Edwards as does head coach Dick Jauron.

Mr. Hero
04-09-2009, 03:49 PM
I just hope Trent is fully ready and is playing the way he was to start the season. He's going to be a good one and will give the bills much needed consistency in the passing game.

Somse
04-09-2009, 03:52 PM
Look if you're going to use stats this a pointless argument. There's no stat that measures a QB's ability to drive his team for a score in the clutch, so there's no way to measure eli's greatest strength

Actually there is...

Ben Roethlisberger

2008:
http://i41.tinypic.com/35hehps.jpg

2007:
http://i44.tinypic.com/alq6fp.jpg

Eli Manning

2008:
http://i42.tinypic.com/j0d0rl.jpg

2007:
http://i42.tinypic.com/8xpwef.jpg

Manning might have been slightly more impressive in 2008 in the 4th quarter but Roethlisberger was much better in 2007. I don't see how you can give Manning a significant edge here.

BmoreBlackByrdz
04-09-2009, 03:55 PM
So why did you just go on a rant about how you don't need to put up good stats (like Brady, Brees, Rivers, etc.) to be a franchise quarterback? Your two posts seem to be arguing complete opposites.

A QB doesn't need to put up those kinda numbers when he has a solid supporting cast. (i.e a good run game and good defense) If a QB has those 2, he can rely on them. Let the defense give the offense the ball, and let the run game drive down the field. All the QB has to do is make smart decisions and not turn the ball over. Look at Joe Flacco in Baltimore for a perfect example. But if your a team with not as much talent, obviously your QB needs to step up and take on a greater role like Tom Brady before he had Moss, like Drew Brees in New Orleans.

Somse
04-09-2009, 03:57 PM
A QB doesn't need to put up those kinda numbers when he has a solid supporting cast. (i.e a good run game and good defense) If a QB has those 2, he can rely on them. Let the defense give the offense the ball, and let the run game drive down the field. All the QB has to do is make smart decisions and not turn the ball over. Look at Joe Flacco in Baltimore for a perfect example. But if your a team with not as much talent, obviously your QB needs to step up and take on a greater role like Tom Brady before he had Moss, like Drew Brees in New Orleans.

Right, I'm just saying the QBs who are game managers are not franchise quarterbacks. I consider franchise quarterbacks guys you build around to win championships, not guys you plug in to an already championship-caliber team.

terribletowel39
04-09-2009, 04:02 PM
Eli is a franchise quarterback. I believe that and am not saying he isn't but I have to put my two cents in and say Eli isn't leaps and bounds better at comebacks and the such than Big Ben. He has like 19 or something in his 5 years. Biggest one being the last REAL football game any of us watched. I know Eli did the same thing, that is why I am saying you can't say he is WAY better. We aren't down or behind often but when we are inevitably, Big Ben steps up. They are ATLEAST even in that respect.

Mr. Hero
04-09-2009, 04:19 PM
Actually there is...

Ben Roethlisberger

2008:
http://i41.tinypic.com/35hehps.jpg

2007:
http://i44.tinypic.com/alq6fp.jpg

Eli Manning

2008:
http://i42.tinypic.com/j0d0rl.jpg

2007:
http://i42.tinypic.com/8xpwef.jpg

Manning might have been slightly more impressive in 2008 in the 4th quarter but Roethlisberger was much better in 2007. I don't see how you can give Manning a significant edge here.

Fourth quarter within 7 is the closest stat to what I'm talking about but eli was often protecting the lead in that situation and not driving for a score, os even those numbers are faulty. Honestly I don't really care if people recognize eli as a top ten QB, or not. I was just trying to explain that if you consider guys like Big Ben franchise QBs you should consider eli one as well if oyu want to be consistent.

Somse
04-09-2009, 04:28 PM
Fourth quarter within 7 is the closest stat to what I'm talking about but eli was often protecting the lead in that situation and not driving for a score, os even those numbers are faulty. Honestly I don't really care if people recognize eli as a top ten QB, or not. I was just trying to explain that if you consider guys like Big Ben franchise QBs you should consider eli one as well if oyu want to be consistent.

How do you know Big Ben wasn't protecting leads?

I already explained why Big Ben is more consistent than Eli. If Eli has another season like he just had, I'll consider him on that level, but until then...

Mr.Regular
04-09-2009, 04:39 PM
Franchise Quarterbacks
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
Drew Brees
Eli Manning
Philip Rivers


On the Brink:
Carson Palmer (too injury prone)
Jay Cutler (too much drama, new team)
Matt Ryan (needs to prove it beyond one year)
Aaron Rodgers (same as Ryan)
Donovan McNabb (he was benched last year so he's clearly not 'untouchable')

On the brink, of being on the brink
Tony Romo
Joe Flacco
Matt Cassell

Somse
04-09-2009, 04:49 PM
On the Brink:
Carson Palmer (too injury prone)

Palmer is too injury prone? When was he hurt other than last season?

gpngc
04-09-2009, 04:54 PM
Well he is still one of the better QB's in the leauge, arguably top 2, but with the loss of Dungy and Harrison and him having a slow start last year, plus he's 33 so I could see him slowly start to decline. One thing is for sure, the Colts should soon start to groom his replacement.

The Colts don't need to start to groom his replacement at all. Peyton Manning is one of the most durable players in the history of sports and has done nothing to show decline. He's never been a great athlete so in his aging he may not show much decline at all. Losing Marvin Harrison (who cares?) and his teams' defensive minded motivator/father figure/organizer won't slow him down at all.

He's THE franchise QB.

BTW I agree with pretty much everything Mr. Regular has above (Except I hate when people spell it Cassell).

Although I think Romo's closer to being a franchise QB than we all think- we all forget that one of his "choke jobs" was a fumbled snap after he led the team down to win the game. Had that gone the other way (and 99.8% of the time it does), he'd probably be viewed differently. I usually don't believe in giving excuses or fluke plays but explain to me why your starting QB is holding there again?

the decider13
04-09-2009, 05:33 PM
I don't get how Jay Cutler can be a franchise QB for a team he hasn't played a snap for, and he hasn't touched the playoffs.

the decider13
04-09-2009, 05:33 PM
Palmer is too injury prone? When was he hurt other than last season?

When he tore his knee in the playoffs?

What do I win?

Somse
04-09-2009, 05:39 PM
When he tore his knee in the playoffs?

What do I win?

How is that being injury-prone? Doesn't matter if that's Palmer, Brady, Manning, or whoever, they're going down as well. Just bad luck and a bad offensive line in Cincinnati.

bored of education
04-09-2009, 05:47 PM
When he tore his knee in the playoffs?

What do I win?

he didnt miss any time for that injury i thought? does that count or no?

the decider13
04-09-2009, 05:56 PM
Well he did miss the rest of that game...and he hardly played at all last year. But before that he had started every game for like 3 seasons. Hardly makes him injury prone.

I personally like Carson Palmer a great deal, but he asked when Palmer had been injured before.

Nalej
04-09-2009, 07:11 PM
The Colts don't need to start to groom his replacement at all. Peyton Manning is one of the most durable players in the history of sports and has done nothing to show decline.

I would have said the same about Brady last year
until a hustiling safety from KC aimed for his knees

Brent
04-09-2009, 07:18 PM
http://www.yoursportsnightcap.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/alex-smith.jpg

YFS, how can you not think this guy is a franchise QB?!

Now, excuse my while I put this gun in my mouth.

7-11
04-09-2009, 07:44 PM
Well he is still one of the better QB's in the leauge, arguably top 2, but with the loss of Dungy and Harrison and him having a slow start last year, plus he's 33 so I could see him slowly start to decline. One thing is for sure, the Colts should soon start to groom his replacement.

Marvin Harrison stopped being a positive influenece on this team two years ago...and the rest of that post, well i just don't know how to answer it.

jth1331
04-09-2009, 07:44 PM
For you stat driven guys, NONE of you would be considering John Elway as a franchise QB based on stats. But you know what, he won games and was amazing in the clutch.

And the talk about the Colts needing to groom a replacement for Manning...just how idiotic can you get?
Manning has 5 years at least, QB's can play into their 40's. Heck, look at Vinny Testaverde for crying out loud and Warren Moon.
Groom a replacement to sit on the bench for 5 years? Yeah, right...

Chief49er
04-09-2009, 07:50 PM
P. Manning still has 3-7 years left in his career... I am pretty sure he is still one of the best, if not the best QB in the NFL.

Fogartynyy2789
04-09-2009, 08:11 PM
Donovan McNabb is a franchise QB. The guy consistently made the playoffs with Todd Pinkston and James Thrash and last year after the benching led his team to the brink of the Super Bowl.

DeathbyStat
04-09-2009, 08:43 PM
True Franchise Guys
Tom Brady
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Drew Brees

On the Cusp
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers


Guys that have more to Prove
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco

OzTitan
04-09-2009, 09:10 PM
A franchise QB to me is a QB a team acquires through whatever means and then proceeds to hand the unconditional starting QB job over to some time afterwards, while the said QB does enough to keep the team happy in that role for an extended period of time, ideally most of their career. It's a dual effort - the team extending the trust and the player doing what it takes to keep it.

There are a lot of could-be franchise QB's in the NFL, or a fair amount anyway, but few sure fire ones IMO. Brady, Eli & Peyton Manning and Big Ben make up my sure fire franchise QB's - they were given the chance and have taken each of their teams all the way. These guys just aren't going anywhere else anytime soon - maybe retirement for Brady and Peyton not too far down the track, and who knows, maybe another Favre like incident, but that's not going to change the fact they're established franchise QBs now.

Guys like Palmer, Romo, Rivers, Brees, McNabb etc have been tagged as franchise QB's by their teams but IMO that's just half the battle - I'm not sure those guys have done enough yet to quite get over the hump. I expect a few of those to do so soon, but it's just not 100% yet. A guy like Cutler has only just been re-tagged as a franchise QB by his new team and that could go either way on whether he earns it or not.

McNabb is a tough one though because he's extremely close and maybe in a few seasons we can look back to now and see he definitely was. I dunno, maybe I'm letting the brief and perhaps over exaggerated hint of concern the Eagles seemed to show recently stop me from believing the Eagles are 100% still trusting McNabb as their unconditional starting QB. This season is fairly important regarding this IMO.

Dam8610
04-09-2009, 09:13 PM
Wow, 33 year old reigning MVP Peyton Manning is not a franchise QB, but 32 year old coming off an ACL Tom Brady is? Trent Edwards is? Joe Flacco is (homer)? Matt Schaub is? That's a pretty interesting concept of "Franchise QB" you have, can you explain it to me?

D-Unit
04-09-2009, 09:14 PM
My take:

A franchise QB is simply a starting QB that the franchise owner wants to keep for the long haul and build the team around. Sure, there is some level of accomplishment. It's how the ownership determined they wanted to go with the guy in the first place. But that accomplishment isn't based off Wins.

That's why Derek Anderson wasn't a franchise QB even though he won 10 games in '07.

I think you guys are defining Franchise QBs incorrectly. It shouldn't be based of what they've accomplished. You say Peyton Manning is a Franchise QB. If he's still playing in 5 year's, is he still considered a Franchise QB? Was Brett Favre considered a Franchise QB last year? No, I don't think so. I think it's based off value. Not accomplishment.

That's why Jay Cutler is a franchise QB even though he hasn't taken a snap for the Bears.

Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, Matt Cassell... they're all Franchise QBs.

The guys like Jason Campbell, Derek Anderson, Kyle Orton.... those guys are not Franchise QBs until they have done enough for their teams to have full confidence in them going forward for the long haul.

Malaka
04-09-2009, 09:15 PM
True Franchise Guys
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Eli Manning
Drew Brees

On the Cusp
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers


Guys that have more to Prove
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco

Fixed it for you...

LonghornsLegend
04-09-2009, 09:25 PM
The guys in italics are the ones that are still good quaterbacks and will do enough to win games but aren't the longterm answer for there respective teams.


Indianapolis Colts - Peyton Manning

Seriously? Nobody should take you serious after this...And the fact that you called Matt Schaub a franchise QB makes it even worse.

BaLLiN
04-09-2009, 09:45 PM
Seriously? Nobody should take you serious after this...And the fact that you called Matt Schaub a franchise QB makes it even worse.

I agree its ridiculous to call Shaub a franchise QB, and Peyton not.

The Shaub is dumb but Peyton is forgivable. Harrison WAS a great part of his success, very reliable and they both worked together alot to get things to work.

I do think there will be a dropoff, but its not like Peyton will be questioned, he's still a Pro Bowl QB and the engineer of the offense. Gonzalez has made strides from his rookie season, so the loss isnt that great, Harrison just seemed to lose a step.

Iamcanadian
04-09-2009, 11:19 PM
True Franchise Guys
Tom Brady - no question
Peyton Manning - no question
Carson Palmer - must return to health to stay here
Ben Roethlisberger - no question
Eli Manning - no question
Drew Brees - would still like to see more playoff appearances
McNabb - no question
Warner - even with the disappearing act for a couple of years, he back to this status

On the Cusp
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers
Chad Pennington - when healthy, he takes teams to the playoffs even if his tools aren't elite


Guys that have more to Prove
Aaron Rodgers

Guys with a lot more to prove
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
JeMarcus Russell

soybean
04-09-2009, 11:20 PM
he didnt miss any time for that injury i thought? does that count or no?

yes he did. He missed the playoffs because of that injury.


Im the biggest USC homer ever and HUGE palmer fan but he never really had that great a season besides the one year where he got knee blown out by dirty ass kimo van olhoffen. He puts up decent numbers but he puts up equally bad numbers as well and hasn't made the playoffs since.

A lot can be put on marvin lewis' shoulders but i want to see the leadership qualities and these comeback wins you guys seem to categorize ben and eli with.

EDIT: i meant he missed the SUPERBOWL because of the injury.

vidae
04-09-2009, 11:37 PM
I would have said the same about Brady last year
until a hustiling safety from KC aimed for his knees

This made me lol.

Monomach
04-10-2009, 12:39 AM
You seriously don't think Peyton Manning is a franchise QB?

Indy really needs to start developing the next one over the next few seasons because Manning's expiration date is getting fairly close. At least I think that's why he didn't get listed.

tylerb929
04-10-2009, 09:17 AM
Indy really needs to start developing the next one over the next few seasons because Manning's expiration date is getting fairly close. At least I think that's why he didn't get listed.

If they draft a QB to replace Manning it will be a situation just like Aaron Rodgers and Brett Favre. Manning has somewhere between 4-6 years left in him and you don't want a high round draft pick riding the bench through his entire rookie contract. By the time the back up got to play, he'd be halfway through his NFL career.

Even if Peyton slows down and the team has to adjust around him, like the Broncos did with Elway, he'll still be a capable QB and his mental game won't go away.

You never really hear about any off the field stories with Peyton, because Football is his life, and if he were to hang it up early and retire, I have no clue what he'd be doing it for, he doesn't seem to have any other passions in life.

bearsfan_51
04-10-2009, 10:38 AM
True Franchise Guys
Tom Brady - no question
Peyton Manning - no question
Carson Palmer - must return to health to stay here
Ben Roethlisberger - no question
Eli Manning - no question
Drew Brees - would still like to see more playoff appearances
McNabb - no question
Warner - even with the disappearing act for a couple of years, he back to this status

On the Cusp
Jay Cutler
Phillip Rivers
Chad Pennington - when healthy, he takes teams to the playoffs even if his tools aren't elite


Guys that have more to Prove
Aaron Rodgers

Guys with a lot more to prove
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
JeMarcus Russell
This is a pretty good list, although I'd take Jay Cutler and Philip Rivers over Eli Manning.

LonghornsLegend
04-10-2009, 11:18 AM
yes he did. He missed the playoffs because of that injury.


Im the biggest USC homer ever and HUGE palmer fan but he never really had that great a season besides the one year where he got knee blown out by dirty ass kimo van olhoffen. He puts up decent numbers but he puts up equally bad numbers as well and hasn't made the playoffs since.

A lot can be put on marvin lewis' shoulders but i want to see the leadership qualities and these comeback wins you guys seem to categorize ben and eli with.


Yea that's pretty funny that he always gets called a franchise QB and I see alot of other guys who don't...I consider Carson a franchise QB personally, but if you put him on the list you have to add guys like Rivers, Cutler, Romo, and so on...Carson has done nothing other then have one great season and be picked high, that's it, so you either put him and the rest of the "on the cusp" guys on the list, or don't have any of them on there.

Dam8610
04-10-2009, 11:33 AM
Yea that's pretty funny that he always gets called a franchise QB and I see alot of other guys who don't...I consider Carson a franchise QB personally, but if you put him on the list you have to add guys like Rivers, Cutler, Romo, and so on...Carson has done nothing other then have one great season and be picked high, that's it, so you either put him and the rest of the "on the cusp" guys on the list, or don't have any of them on there.

Palmer has had 2 extremely high level seasons (2005, 2006), and he would have had another in 2007 had his defense not been terrible.

NIN1984
04-10-2009, 12:26 PM
I agree with Iamcanadian. I don't see how a QB who plays one season can be labeled a franchise QB. Its pretty crazy putting Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco in the same class as Manning and Brady.

E-Man
04-10-2009, 12:51 PM
I think that the whole franchise QB thing is a little overblown. The fact of the reality is that a ton of quarterbacks get overrated or underrated by their team's performance. The whole QB win-loss thing is absurd because they have absolutely no bearing on what the defense and special teams do. Therefore sometimes the Super Bowl winner's starting QB gets blown up to epic proportions, because of the notion that quarterbacks win games. I can't see how someone can win a game by being on the sideline half the time. Throw in the fact that quarterback is possibly the most dependent position in the game and you have a head scratcher. No matter how well a QB throws the ball the receiver stills has to open and catch it. He still needs time to find the receiver open, so his job needs someone else to be successful in order for him to be. I'm not saying that quarterbacks aren't important. It's the hardest position to develop and play. But if a QB throws the greatest pass ever and the receiver drops it the whole team suffers and not just the quarterback. The same thing goes for when they throw up the dumbest pass ever and the receiver makes an epic play. Now I'm not calling anyone out on this board. I'm just ranting about seeing quarterbacks have wins and losses in their stats.

Now I'm a huge Cowboy fan, but I call things like I see them. I hate the Eagles with a passion, but Donovan McNabb needs to stop getting severely slept on. This guy is the epitome of a quarterback uplifting his team. For years he's done big things without an all star cast around him. Yet somehow he always gets criticized for things out of his control. He's the scariest quarterback to me outside of Peyton Manning. I hope he gets a HOF induction someday.

LonghornsLegend
04-10-2009, 12:55 PM
Palmer has had 2 extremely high level seasons (2005, 2006), and he would have had another in 2007 had his defense not been terrible.

Are those the only credentials to be a franchise QB? A few very good seasons?

D-Unit
04-10-2009, 01:22 PM
E-Man, there's too much bias in opinions. That's why people keep leaving McNabb out.

..and how can Palmer be a Franchise QB and Tony Romo not be?

Palmer hasn't done jack crap in a long time. It's not once a franchise QB, always a franchise QB. If that were the case Daunte Culpepper would still be mentioned.

And again, this shouldn't be based off accomplishment with the team, but rather value. Jay Cutler is a franchise QB. Hell, Matt Stafford is already a franchise QB because that's how he'll be valued by the team that drafts him. I completely disagree with the criteria being used to judge what a franchise QB is.

Take Alex Smith... He was considered a franchise QB at one point, but not anymore. ...and that's ok. If you don't perform well enough to sustain value to your team, then you lose the reputation of being a franchise QB.

Just like Kurt Warner has gone through in his career. Was, wasn't, and now is again.

Staubach12
04-10-2009, 01:31 PM
I think Tony Romo is a franchise QB.

Ravens1991
04-10-2009, 01:53 PM
What makes Joe Flacco, Matt Ryan and Matt Cassel all franchise qbs or questions? They only have one year of starting. Does that mean they are a question or not frnachise. I think for players with only one year of starting experience means the jury is still out.

Ravens fans call Flacco a franchise QB because him as a rookie was the best QB we have had post Vinny.

E-Man
04-10-2009, 03:23 PM
E-Man, there's too much bias in opinions. That's why people keep leaving McNabb out.

..and how can Palmer be a Franchise QB and Tony Romo not be?

Palmer hasn't done jack crap in a long time. It's not once a franchise QB, always a franchise QB. If that were the case Daunte Culpepper would still be mentioned.

And again, this shouldn't be based off accomplishment with the team, but rather value. Jay Cutler is a franchise QB. Hell, Matt Stafford is already a franchise QB because that's how he'll be valued by the team that drafts him. I completely disagree with the criteria being used to judge what a franchise QB is.

Take Alex Smith... He was considered a franchise QB at one point, but not anymore. ...and that's ok. If you don't perform well enough to sustain value to your team, then you lose the reputation of being a franchise QB.

Just like Kurt Warner has gone through in his career. Was, wasn't, and now is again.

QBs are always a tricky thing. You can have a guy play average, make a few plays in the Super Bowl and he's considered a franchise QB. On the other hand you can have a guy put up big numbers, have a crappy defense, the team goes 8-8 and he's nothing. I just try to give props to where props is due with the QBs and just leave it alone. There are some real overrated QBs in the league, but emotion always destroys the logic there.

Rjspartan
04-10-2009, 03:47 PM
mannings
brady
brees
big ben
rivers
ryan
palmer

Dam8610
04-10-2009, 04:54 PM
Are those the only credentials to be a franchise QB? A few very good seasons?

No, I just didn't think it was fair that you were shortchanging him. That said, Palmer does have all the makings of a franchise QB when he's on the field.

SimonRath
04-10-2009, 07:23 PM
i am a huge falcons fan
an even i admit Matt Ryan isn't a franchise QB.
he needs atleast one or two more good season to even be talked about

MichaelJordanEberle (sabf)
04-10-2009, 11:54 PM
I think we can all agree that Quaterback is the most important position in the game of football. So that brings me to the thought, how many teams are actually set at QB?
Heres a list of every team and who they have at QB.

I bolded the teams that I think have there guy and are set for the future and

The guys in italics are the ones that are still good quaterbacks and will do enough to win games but aren't the longterm answer for there respective teams.

I underlined the youngers QB's who still have the jury out on them, they have the potential but haven't put it all together yet. And for the ones that aren't in any font just suck for are too old.

Buffalo Bills - Trent Edwards
Miami Dolphins - Chad Pennington
New York Jets - Kellen Clemens/Brett Ratliff
New England Patriots - Tom Brady
Baltimore Ravens - Joe Flacco
Cincinnatti Bengals - Carson Palmer
Cleveland Browns - Brady Quinn/Derek Anderson
Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben Roethlisberger
Houston Texans - Matt Schaub
Indianapolis Colts - Peyton Manning
Jacksonville Jaguars - David Garrarrd
Tennessee Titans - Kerry Collins
Denver Broncos - Kyle Orton/Chris Simms
Kansas City Chiefs - Matt Cassel
Oakland Raiders - Jamarcus Russell
San Deigo Chargers - Phillip Rivers
NFC
New York Giants - Eli Manning
Dallas Cowboys - Tony Romo
Philedelphia Eagles - Donovan McNabb
Washington Redskins - Jason Campbell
Chicago Bears - Jay Cutler
Detroit Lions - Daunte Cullpeper
Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rodgers
Minnesota Vikings - Tarvaris Jackson/Sage Roesnfels
Atlanta Falcons - Matt Ryan
Carolina Panthers - Jake Delhomme
New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees
Tampa Bay Bucaneers - Luke McCown
Arizona Cardnails - Kurt Warner
St. Louis Rams - Marc Bulger
San Francisco 49ers - Shaun Hill/Alex Smith
Seattle Seahawks - Matt Hasselbeck
So heres my list of the current franchise QB's in the game right now
Trent Edwards
Tom Brady
Joe Flacco
Carson Palmer
Ben Roethlisberger
Matt Schaub
Phillip Rivers
Eli Manning
Drew Brees
Aaron Rodgers
Matt Ryan
Jay Cutler
What are your thoughts? You don't have to re-write the whole list, just list your franchise QB's.

I seriously hope you just forgot Peyton, I'm not gonna read this whole threa.d Cuz seriously Manning is better than anyone right now except ARGUABLY Brady. Wiow I just noticed you didn't forget him. Worst post ever? I think so, although DG has 29, 506 to argue it. Seriously, Peyton>everyone on that list(but MAYBE Tom Brady. I have them tied pre-Brady injury). I'd certainly prefer Peyton over Cutler, and I still love Cutler even though he's gone.

LonghornsLegend
04-11-2009, 12:50 AM
No, I just didn't think it was fair that you were shortchanging him. That said, Palmer does have all the makings of a franchise QB when he's on the field.

I'm not short changing him, I would just love for someone to explain to me what he has done to be considered a franchise QB other then those few great statistical seasons.

D-Unit
04-11-2009, 01:21 AM
Instead of listing names, defining your definition of a franchise QB is probably a better way to attack this debate.

scottyboy
04-11-2009, 07:46 AM
you guys are forgetting, the Giants actually have 2 more franchise QB's on our roster:

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cUZc9l7Kz8mo/340x.jpg

http://images.chron.com/blogs/fanblogtexans/david_carr.jpg

Kase1
04-11-2009, 08:29 AM
I think Tony Romo is a franchise QB.

More like Franchise Choker

Kase1
04-11-2009, 08:30 AM
This is a pretty good list, although I'd take Jay Cutler and Philip Rivers over Eli Manning.

Hell NAW!!!!

Eli is def better than either, he completly changed the game in SB 42 in the 4th with time ticking down, while Cutler and Rivers were watching from the 9th green

LizardState
04-11-2009, 10:46 AM
I think you have to look at Schaub in a team context. 1st, forget his negligible Atlanta experience. He was never in the top NFL QBs in stats but he was like manna from Heaven to the Texans when he went there. He is also one of the unluckiest QBs ever.

Under Carr they never got off the starting line for expansion franchises, Houston gambled on Tony Boselli being injury free when they took him in the expansion draft & paid him a ******** of $, he never played a down for them. And the o-linemen who did play for them were the league's worst, Carr set an NFL rcd. for sacks, & they stayed on the floor of their division & in the league passing yds stats. Offensive production was an unknown phenomenon in Houston until Schaub came there & Andre Johnson emerged as an elite WR as predicted. Their o-line quietly improved & their offense was reborn.

Schaub was never healthy since his sr. yr. at UVA when he tore his shoulder up in the 1st offensive series of their 1st game. He was ranked among the top 2-3 QBs in that draft until then, his size & arm made him the poster boy Franchise QBs. And his bad luck with injuries that kept him out of the lineup followed him to Houston, plus he was unlucky enough to have the best backup in the league pushing him for a starting job in Sage Rosenfels, who said many times last yr he wanted to start, now he will get his chance in Minnesota. Put Schaub in Indy like state of the art Franchise QB Peyton Manning, or in Dallas surrounded by superlative talent & Garrett calling the plays & imagine what he could have done. It;s questionable now whether Kubiak has run out of patience with him & that with the absence of Rosenfels has fueled the rumors that the Texans are going QB later this month.

As for Romo, as a Cowboys fan I think he's a work in progress like you'd expect from an UDFA QB but he seems -- still! -- like a manic depressive QB, he's either way up or way down, we saw both in that playoff loss in Seattle with the fumbled extra point snap (did anyone else notice it happened exactly like the game sequence in North Dallas 40?). When he was out for 4 games with the broken pinky Dallas lost 3 of those, this is how important he is to them. Does it make him a Franchise QB? No. In a similar thread a yr ago I ranked him 6th among NFL starting QBs, he's a lot lower now. Nor is he the 2nd coming of Troy Aikman, as every Dallas QB has been compared to him -- maybe that's b/c they won their last playoff game with Aikman under center.

Brees gets it done without the Peyton Manning size & rocket arm with excellent game management & incredible precision passing, plus he throws one of the most catchable balls in the NFL. He's also a locker room leader everywhere he's been, note how the concerns over the Bolts leadership on the field never were heard until Brees was replaced by Rivers there.

Lots of factors to consider when you label a Franchise QB, each is a different story.

Dam8610
04-11-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm not short changing him, I would just love for someone to explain to me what he has done to be considered a franchise QB other then those few great statistical seasons.

You did shortchange him. You said he had only one good season, so I'd like to know which of his 2005 and 2006 seasons you think wasn't a great season for an NFL QB. When he's been healthy and not in his first season starting, Palmer has been an elite QB, and he made the players around him better. Yes, he threw 20 INTs in 2007, but a bad defense has that effect on even the greatest of QBs, and looking at the rest of his numbers for that year, he still had a pretty great season. To me, a QB that is the unquestioned starter, is a team leader, makes the players around him better, and puts up great numbers consistently is a franchise QB. Palmer fits every single one of those criteria when healthy.

IndyColtScout
04-11-2009, 12:49 PM
Personally, I think there is only three:

Manning
Brady
Brees

There are a lot of young guys out there who can be franchise QB's, but IMO no one touches these three for the amount of time they have been doing it combined with the fact all three have 5+ seasons left.

bearsfan_51
04-11-2009, 12:54 PM
Personally, I think there is only three:

Manning
Brady
Brees

There are a lot of young guys out there who can be franchise QB's, but IMO no one touches these three for the amount of time they have been doing it combined with the fact all three have 5+ seasons left.

Peyton Manning is 33. In 5 years he'll be 38 (duh).

It wouldn't surprise me to see him play till he's 38 (that's actually a pretty standard retirement age for HOF QB's), but to think he'll be anything like he is now is very wishful thinking.

IndyColtScout
04-11-2009, 12:56 PM
Peyton Manning is 33. In 5 years he'll be 38 (duh).

It wouldn't surprise me to see him play till he's 38 (that's actually a pretty standard retirement age for HOF QB's), but to think he'll be anything like he is now is very wishful thinking.

No its not. He doesn't throw on the move that much and hasn't for a long time.

Put a very good OL around him and I believe he could extend his career 10 years if he wanted to. Elway didn't have problems, and I don't think Manning will either OL pending.

Dam8610
04-11-2009, 12:56 PM
Peyton Manning is 33. In 5 years he'll be 38 (duh).

It wouldn't surprise me to see him play till he's 38 (that's actually a pretty standard retirement age for HOF QB's), but to think he'll be anything like he is now is very wishful thinking.

In 5 seasons he'll be 37.

Somse
04-11-2009, 01:04 PM
Peyton Manning is 33. In 5 years he'll be 38 (duh).

It wouldn't surprise me to see him play till he's 38 (that's actually a pretty standard retirement age for HOF QB's), but to think he'll be anything like he is now is very wishful thinking.

Look at what Brett Favre and Kurt Warner did though. Considering Manning's relatively injury-free career and the fact that he is a pocket passer, I don't think he'll necessarily regress very much going forward. He might lose some arm strength but his greatest asset has always been the mental part of the game anyway.

bearsfan_51
04-11-2009, 01:07 PM
In 5 seasons he'll be 37.

33 + 5 = 38.

Dam8610
04-11-2009, 01:09 PM
33 + 5 = 38.

Birthday in March, meaning he'll be 33 all of this season.

33 + 4 = 37.

It's the same reason that Jay Cutler is, for all intents and purposes, 26.

bearsfan_51
04-11-2009, 01:13 PM
No its not. He doesn't throw on the move that much and hasn't for a long time.

Put a very good OL around him and I believe he could extend his career 10 years if he wanted to. Elway didn't have problems, and I don't think Manning will either OL pending.
That's ******* insane. You gave Elway as an example. Elway retired at 38, and by the end of his career it's clear the Broncos won those two Superbowls as much due to their runninggame than anything else. Kurt Warner is 37. Brett Favre was awful last year at 39. Marino retired at 38 drastically declined. Ditto Joe Monatana.

He could have (this season included) 5 more good seasons, but like I said, it's very wishful thinking to consider that he'd have more. History and physics are not on your side.

bearsfan_51
04-11-2009, 01:14 PM
Birthday in March, meaning he'll be 33 all of this season.

33 + 4 = 37.

It's the same reason that Jay Cutler is, for all intents and purposes, 26.

I didn't realize that this season was already over. I'm pretty sure he said 5+ seasons left. That would take him, after 5 seasons, to 38.

Dam8610
04-11-2009, 01:17 PM
I didn't realize that this season was already over. I'm pretty sure he said 5+ seasons left. That would take him, after 5 seasons, to 38.

The 2009 season is not over, in fact, that's exactly why Manning will be 37 in 5 seasons. Unless you're saying 5 seasons after the 2009 season he'll be 38, in which case, you'd be right.

bearsfan_51
04-11-2009, 01:17 PM
The 2009 season is not over, in fact, that's exactly why Manning will be 37 in 5 seasons. Unless you're saying 5 seasons after the 2009 season he'll be 38, in which case, you'd be right.

Which is what 5+ would indicate, no?

Dam8610
04-11-2009, 01:20 PM
Which is what 5+ would indicate, no?

Well, you'd originally said 5, that might be where the confusion arose.

Somse
04-11-2009, 01:25 PM
That's ******* insane. You gave Elway as an example. Elway retired at 38, and by the end of his career it's clear the Broncos won those two Superbowls as much due to their runninggame than anything else. Kurt Warner is 37. Brett Favre was awful last year at 39. Marino retired at 38 drastically declined. Ditto Joe Monatana.

He could have (this season included) 5 more good seasons, but like I said, it's very wishful thinking to consider that he'd have more. History and physics are not on your side.

Favre had a bad season after switching teams. He had a career year the year before. I don't see why Manning can't replicate that success.

IndyColtScout
04-11-2009, 01:28 PM
Didn't Sammy Baugh play into his 40's?

The game was a lot rougher then too.

bearsfan_51
04-11-2009, 01:32 PM
Favre had a bad season after switching teams. He had a career year the year before. I don't see why Manning can't replicate that success.
Favre's last year with the Packers was an outlier. He was playing his brains off. The 2-3 years before that were all bad too. It's not like he just started to decline when he went to the Jets.

Somse
04-11-2009, 01:35 PM
Favre's last year with the Packers was an outlier. He was playing his brains off. The 2-3 years before that were all bad too. It's not like he just started to decline when he went to the Jets.

Well Favre was excellent all the way up to the completion of the 2004 season. Easily one of the best QBs in the league. The next two years he still played OK considering how much his team was struggling. He just threw a lot of interceptions because he was playing from behind a lot and trying to take the team on his back. Then once his team improved, he again showed he is an elite quarterback.

I would hardly say Favre regressed very much. Yes, he was worse but he was still an elite, franchise quarterback until he was traded to the Jets.

AJHawk50
04-11-2009, 01:36 PM
New England Patriots - Tom Brady
Baltimore Ravens - Joe Flacco
Cincinnatti Bengals - Carson Palmer
Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben Roethlisberger
Indianapolis Colts - Peyton Manning
Jacksonville Jaguars - David Garrard
Kansas City Chiefs - Matt Cassel
San Deigo Chargers - Phillip Rivers
New York Giants - Eli Manning
Dallas Cowboys - Tony Romo
Philedelphia Eagles - Donovan McNabb
Chicago Bears - Jay Cutler
Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rodgers
Atlanta Falcons - Matt Ryan
New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees
Arizona Cardnails - Kurt Warner

Dam8610
04-11-2009, 01:53 PM
Baltimore Ravens - Joe Flacco

They surely hope, it's a little early to be ordaining him, especially with his play at times last year.

Jacksonville Jaguars - David Garrard

No. Just no.

Kansas City Chiefs - Matt Cassel

He had one decent season in a system he knew like the back of his hand by the time he got on the field. I'd say it's a little early here, too.

Dallas Cowboys - Tony Romo

Am I the only one that thinks about 20-25 if not more of the QBs in the NFL could have done what Romo has done with the talent around him?

Atlanta Falcons - Matt Ryan

He's well on his way, but I'd at least like to see another season of good play.

Arizona Cardnails - Kurt Warner

If being a long-term solution is part of the criteria, then this doesn't work. Considering how much of his production went to Boldin and Fitz last year, I question it even in the short term.

yourfavestoner
04-11-2009, 01:57 PM
Jacksonville Jaguars - David Garrard


You have to be ******* kidding me.

IndyColtScout
04-11-2009, 02:00 PM
The only reason I don't consider Warner a franchise QB is one reason. Look at the seasons he was successful. Last year and with the STL Rams, Warner always had the best (or one of the best) supporting casts. Fitz, Boldin, Breaston, Edge, Hightower last year. Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Az Hakim, Proehl, Elite LT then in Pace.

Then look at his years without that elite talent.

Warner is a very good QB, and a great passer. However, when I think franchise QB I think elite passing talents. Guys that put up 30 or more passing TD's a year-Over 4,000 yards that kind of stuff.

Brady, Manning, and Brees have either done it already or I feel like have a better chance at doing much more than all other QB's.

Warner is close, now that I think of it McNabb is to but I think they just miss. After that everyone is a work in progress to see if they can get there.

IndyColtScout
04-11-2009, 02:01 PM
Ben I consider the premier Game Manager. I think he is a hell of a QB, but not a franchise QB.

IndyColtScout
04-11-2009, 02:16 PM
You have to be ******* kidding me.

I think Garrard is a very underrated QB. I would not consider him a franchise QB, but if he actually had 2 good WR's to throw at for more than one season, maybe he could get to that level. This guy has had some huge busts for WR.

Crickett
04-11-2009, 02:27 PM
New England Patriots - Tom Brady - Hurt
Baltimore Ravens - Joe Flacco - didn't put up good enough numbers
Cincinnatti Bengals - Carson Palmer - hurt
Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben Roethlisberger - game manager
Indianapolis Colts - Peyton Manning - too old
Jacksonville Jaguars - David Garrard - not productive enough
Kansas City Chiefs - Matt Cassel - one year wonder
San Deigo Chargers - Phillip Rivers - too douchy
New York Giants - Eli Manning - Nothing without Plaxico Burress
Dallas Cowboys - Tony Romo - Choke artist
Philedelphia Eagles - Donovan McNabb - He's an eagles QB
Chicago Bears - Jay Cutler - Can't even get to the playoffs.
Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rodgers - Not Brett Favre.
Atlanta Falcons - Matt Ryan - Hasn't won the big game.
New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees - Too short
Arizona Cardnails - Kurt Warner - Product of his WR's.

There are no franchise QB's!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't be surprised to see all 29 teams that have a first round draft pick draft a QB in the first round. You can't pass on that potential franchise QB. :D

This is a joke. It is not meant to be taken seriously.

SimonRath
04-11-2009, 02:37 PM
New England Patriots - Tom Brady - Hurt
Baltimore Ravens - Joe Flacco - didn't put up good enough numbers
Cincinnatti Bengals - Carson Palmer - hurt
Pittsburgh Steelers - Ben Roethlisberger - game manager
Indianapolis Colts - Peyton Manning - too old
Jacksonville Jaguars - David Garrard - not productive enough
Kansas City Chiefs - Matt Cassel - one year wonder
San Deigo Chargers - Phillip Rivers - too douchy
New York Giants - Eli Manning - Nothing without Plaxico Burress
Dallas Cowboys - Tony Romo - Choke artist
Philedelphia Eagles - Donovan McNabb - He's an eagles QB
Chicago Bears - Jay Cutler - Can't even get to the playoffs.
Green Bay Packers - Aaron Rodgers - Not Brett Favre.
Atlanta Falcons - Matt Ryan - Hasn't won the big game.
New Orleans Saints - Drew Brees - Too short
Arizona Cardnails - Kurt Warner - Product of his WR's.

There are no franchise QB's!!!!!!!!

I wouldn't be surprised to see all 29 teams that have a first round draft pick draft a QB in the first round. You can't pass on that potential franchise QB. :D

This is a joke. It is not meant to be taken seriously.

how in da hell can you say Drew Brees isnt a franchise QB????

Mr. Hero
04-11-2009, 05:54 PM
how in da hell can you say Drew Brees isnt a franchise QB????

Because he's clearly too short...

BlindSite
04-11-2009, 06:22 PM
Because he's clearly too short...
You are kidding... right?

Drew Brees is a top 5 QB in the NFL, in fact he's probably the guy behind Brady and Peyton.

d34ng3l021
04-11-2009, 06:31 PM
You are kidding... right?

Drew Brees is a top 5 QB in the NFL, in fact he's probably the guy behind Brady and Peyton.

I would actually put him a tier below Brady and Manning, but in a tier by himself. He isn't as good as those QBs, but is much better and consistent than the rest of the QB's that round out your top 5. And I'm pretty sure he was kidding.

SimonRath
04-11-2009, 06:34 PM
Because he's clearly too short...

umm an who cares?

scottyboy
04-11-2009, 06:58 PM
how in da hell can you say Drew Brees isnt a franchise QB????

you really don't understand the concept of sarcasm

3pac
04-11-2009, 07:02 PM
Wow, OP. You put Matt Schaub as a franchise QB and not 3 time (and reigning) MVP Peyton Manning?

You have no idea about what you are talking about, period, and you should just stop posting on football forums, because clearly you have no business talking about it. Also, you can't be a franchise QB after 1 season (cough Ryan, Flacco) but you can POTENTIALLY be one. There's a big difference.

Franchise QBs:

Peyton
Brady
Brees
Rivers
Eli
Roethlisberger
and 2 maybes: McNabb and Romo

Flacco, Ryan, Cutler, and others are POTENTIAL ones. What a stupid topic.

AJHawk50
04-11-2009, 07:04 PM
You have to be ******* kidding me.
It's a good point, I think I missed the Jaguars when I pasted and edited the QB's. lol I do thinK Garrard is a good manager though.

And my personal definition of a franchise QB is a guy that there is no competition for, and he has the job safe; or is looked upon as the leader. In Kurt Warner's case, he is old yes but after he took them to a Super Bowl he is looked upon as a franchise kind of guy. No he's not with the best, but it's not all about statistics.

AJHawk50
04-11-2009, 07:08 PM
They surely hope, it's a little early to be ordaining him, especially with his play at times last year.



No. Just no.



He had one decent season in a system he knew like the back of his hand by the time he got on the field. I'd say it's a little early here, too.



Am I the only one that thinks about 20-25 if not more of the QBs in the NFL could have done what Romo has done with the talent around him?



He's well on his way, but I'd at least like to see another season of good play.



If being a long-term solution is part of the criteria, then this doesn't work. Considering how much of his production went to Boldin and Fitz last year, I question it even in the short term.
Flacco as a rookie took them nearly to the Super Bowl so I consider his job safe, and a franchise QB.

I missed the Jags when I went down the list on Garrard.

As a Chiefs fan, I all ready feel like Cassel is going to be the franchise QB whether or not it pans out is yet to be seen, but as of right now he is our guy.

I'm not one to argue Romo's resume, but I do feel his job is safe for now and when you see the Cowboys on tv, it's Romo you see odds are now that T.O. is gone. :P

Matt Ryan had an awesome year, and again to me a franchise QB is a guy who is going to be around; and going off of right now Ryan is DEFINITELY solidified himself in Atlanta.

And I mentioned Warner above.

SimonRath
04-11-2009, 07:19 PM
Wow, OP. You put Matt Schaub as a franchise QB and not 3 time (and reigning) MVP Peyton Manning?

You have no idea about what you are talking about, period, and you should just stop posting on football forums, because clearly you have no business talking about it. Also, you can't be a franchise QB after 1 season (cough Ryan, Flacco) but you can POTENTIALLY be one. There's a big difference.

Franchise QBs:

Peyton
Brady
Rivers
Eli
Roethlisberger
and 2 maybes: McNabb and Romo

Flacco, Ryan, Cutler, and others are POTENTIAL ones. What a stupid topic.

Brees?......

jth1331
04-11-2009, 09:01 PM
Saying Manning won't be as successful later in his career is laughable.

Steve Young's last 3 years(age 35-37)
1996: 12 games, 2400 yards, 67% completion, 14 TD's, 6 INT's and 97.2 rating
1997: 15 games, 3000 yards, 67% completion, 19 TD's, 6 INT's and 104.7 rating
1998: 16 games, 4100 yards, 62% completion, 36 TD's, 12 INT's and 101.1 rating

John Elway's last 3 years(age 36-38)
1996: 15 games, 3300 yards, 62% completion, 26 TD's, 14 INT's and 89.2 rating
1997: 16 games, 3600 yards, 56% completion, 27 TD's, 11 INT's and 87.5 rating
1998: 13 games, 2800 yards, 59% completion, 22 TD's, 10 INT's and 93 rating

Brett Favre's end of career totals are pretty decent as well.
Dan Marino's end of career totals are okay as well, he had a supreme lack of talent though during the end of his career if I recall correctly.
Joe Montana actually had a solid end of career.

It seems most QB's are either derailed in the end by poor supporting casts, or injuries.
I don't see Peyton Manning diminishing that much in the end, his game centers on intelligence and accuracy, usually you don't lose those as you get older in the game lol.

Xenos
04-11-2009, 10:12 PM
how in da hell can you say Drew Brees isnt a franchise QB????
He's not clutch when it matters?

He's a great passer but I can never really count on him to bring a team back from a high deficit like I can with Manning or Brady. Brees seem to get frustrated if his rhythm is broken up and he never recovers.

MetSox17
04-11-2009, 10:23 PM
You have to be ******* kidding me.

How's that Tony Romo sized contract looking now? :)

d34ng3l021
04-11-2009, 11:44 PM
He's not clutch when it matters?

He's a great passer but I can never really count on him to bring a team back from a high deficit like I can with Manning or Brady. Brees seem to get frustrated if his rhythm is broken up and he never recovers.

That is because he is not in the same class as Brady and Manning, and no one thinks so either. Also, since when did Manning and Brady (2 of the best QBs in NFL history) become the mark for franchise QBs?

RedAttack
04-12-2009, 12:09 AM
The only reason I don't consider Warner a franchise QB is one reason. Look at the seasons he was successful. Last year and with the STL Rams, Warner always had the best (or one of the best) supporting casts. Fitz, Boldin, Breaston, Edge, Hightower last year. Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Az Hakim, Proehl, Elite LT then in Pace.

Then look at his years without that elite talent.

Warner is a very good QB, and a great passer. However, when I think franchise QB I think elite passing talents. Guys that put up 30 or more passing TD's a year-Over 4,000 yards that kind of stuff.

Brady, Manning, and Brees have either done it already or I feel like have a better chance at doing much more than all other QB's.

Warner is close, now that I think of it McNabb is to but I think they just miss. After that everyone is a work in progress to see if they can get there.

I really disagree with you here.

The guy has taken two (historically) horrible franchises to the Superbowl and put up elite numbers when healthy.

It's not like the Cardinals and Rams were good teams to begin with and he was just 'plugged in' there and they carried on as normal.

The Rams have done nothing since he has left, and the Cardinals weren't winning anything before he (and Coach Whiz) turned up.

3pac
04-12-2009, 09:41 AM
Brees?......

My bad, yes, Brees definitely belongs in there too. Just forgot to type out his name.

Addict
04-12-2009, 09:48 AM
this thread, more than anything shows that 'Franchise' means different things to different people. Either you believe that it's a proven top QB, or it's a question of job security. Do you need to carry your team or just make it better? Is clutch important and if so how important?

I think the only guys that everyone agrees on are the two guys who are (or shoud be, anyway) the absolute 1A and 1B on any current QB-list: Brady and Manning.

yourfavestoner
04-12-2009, 12:36 PM
How's that Tony Romo sized contract looking now? :)

Just another brilliant farewell parting gift that Shack Harris left us.

Dam8610
04-12-2009, 02:41 PM
I think the only guys that everyone agrees on are the two guys who are (or shoud be, anyway) the absolute 1A and 1B on any current QB-list: Brady and Manning.

You may want to check the first post of the thread.

killxswitch
04-13-2009, 12:15 PM
This is not rocket science. It's just difficult to agree on a definition of "franchise".

Here's my take. Each tier does not necessarily mean all the players listed are of equal skill as this is not a QB skill ranking. They are not in any particular order within the tier.

Tier 1 Franchise QBs (leaders, winners, HOFers, team is built for them)

Peyton Manning
Tom Brady

Tier 2 Franchise QBs (winners, good players and/or game managers, no chance of being replaced in near future)

Ben Rothlisberger
Drew Brees
Philip Rivers
Jay Cutler
Eli Manning
Donovan McNabb
Tony Romo
Chad Pennington
Kurt Warner

Tier 3 QBs (good or great QBs with unproven consistency, unlikely to be challenged)

Matt Hasselbeck
Aaron Rogers
Matt Cassel
Matt Ryan
Joe Flacco
David Garrard
Matt Schaub
Kerry Collins
(I would put Jason Campbell here but the Redskins might get stupid)

Tier 4 QBs (on the bubble, not terribly likely to be challenged)

Trent Edwards
Jamarcus Russel
Jake Delhomme
Jason Campbell
Marc Bulger

The Rest (for various reasons their future is uncertain)

TJack/Frerotte/Rosenfels
Shaun Hill
Jeff Garcia
Kyle Orton
Derek Anderson/Brady Quinn
Tyler Thigpen
Daunte Culpepper

Halsey
04-13-2009, 01:24 PM
I knew before I clicked on this thread that there would be a lot of ridiculous arguments about who is and isn't a 'franchise QB'. Reading some of the posts only verify it.

AJHawk50
04-13-2009, 06:27 PM
For the most part, I would agree with you killxswitch. Maybe a couple guys different, but overall it's a solid outline.

3pac
04-14-2009, 09:45 AM
For the most part, I would agree with you killxswitch. Maybe a couple guys different, but overall it's a solid outline.

So would I. Obviously different opinions may switch around a few, but generally I think he got it right.

Mr.Regular
04-14-2009, 11:11 AM
I disagree with killswitch on some counts.... like Chad Pennington (though he had a phenomenal year) is likely being replaced as of 2010 by Henne.... I also think players like Russell should be ahead or at leas ton par with Schaub and Garrard.
I also don't think McNabb's future is as set in stone as others think because he was benched last year and IMO could be out of town as early as next year if Philly falls hard in 09.

AJHawk50
04-14-2009, 02:18 PM
I disagree with killswitch on some counts.... like Chad Pennington (though he had a phenomenal year) is likely being replaced as of 2010 by Henne.... I also think players like Russell should be ahead or at leas ton par with Schaub and Garrard.
I also don't think McNabb's future is as set in stone as others think because he was benched last year and IMO could be out of town as early as next year if Philly falls hard in 09.
I agree with the Pennington statement, and I don't personally consider Aaron Rodgers the same level as Kerry Collins. I would move Rodgers up, and that's not being biased.

San Diego Chicken
04-14-2009, 02:30 PM
To me, a "franchise quarterback" is simply a top 3-5 quarterback in the NFL. The presence of a franchise QB makes a team a legitimate threat to go deep in the playoffs or reach the super bowl. A franchise QB will always be challenging for the passing title. A franchise QB is a regular all-pro, and is worthy of being one of the highest paid players in the NFL.

Right now, there are only two for sure franchise QB's in the NFL, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning. Now that Ben Roethlisberger has two rings, and has put up some great numbers, I tend to think of him as that third franchise QB.

Drew Brees and Philip Rivers are on the cusp, but Brees has somewhat hollow stats, and Rivers hasn't made the Super Bowl yet even though he's had a good enough team to do so, in my opinion. So I can't consider them a franchise QB just yet. Donovan McNabb is too inconsistent to be considered a franchise QB at this time, even though he annually has his team competing and can put up huge numbers. Kurt Warner comes close, but he's been too expendable over the years. Everyone else really has no business even being in the discussion.

In the 90's, there were 5 solid franchise QB's - Brett Favre, Steve Young, and Troy Aikman in the NFC, and John Elway and Dan Marino in the AFC, and Jim Kelly was pretty close to one, sort of on that Roethlisberger/Brees level. I believe that was the last time we'll see that many franchise guys playing in the league at once. That was one awesome time to be an NFL fan, btw.


edit: It's sad because I forgot all about Carson Palmer. Before he was injured, he was absolutely on his way to being a bona-fide franchise QB. He is still to me the most gifted passer in football. However, the culture of losing in Cincinnatti has dragged him down so far that he's basically an afterthought now.

DMWSackMachine
04-16-2009, 07:47 PM
Obviously the problem here is defining what makes a player a "franchise" QB. The first place to start is by simply looking at the damn term. Franchise.

The term began as a moniker for players who WERE the franchise. Meaning when you thought of a franchise, you thought of that player simultaneously. A player cannot be a franchise player after one season, no matter how well he played or how charming his story.

We should approach it through process of elimination, according to a variety of different criteria.

Beginning with:


1. NOTORIETY

Do you know the player? If you walked up to an average NFL fan (not just the average person, but a fan of the league) would he know the player without fail? A franchise QB must be so closely associated with his franchise that any person who is familiar with that franchise should also be familiar with that player.

This immediately disqualfies Flacco, Edwards, Cutler, Cassel, Ryan, Pennington, Campbell, Rodgers and Anderson/Quinn, Schaub, Collins (though not Vince :P ), Gerrard, Orton, Russell, Stafford, Sage/Tavaris, Hill.

2. SUSTAINED LEVEL OF PLAY

The QB must have played at a high level for a reasonable length of time. By high level we're talking about at least top 10 QB for the majority of the given time period in which the question is posed. This allows for a certain amount of room for ups and downs--ie, Brady blowing his knee out for a season does not ruin it for him, but if he were to come back and follow that up with another full season of bad play he would then have to at least be put on warning, if not removed from the list entirely, for having gone 2 consecutive years without producing quality QB play for his team--but that only goes so far.

This removes imo:

Hasselbeck - has gone two of the last three years with just horrible, horrible play, injury riddled and unreliable. This could def. be argued since he had a strong 07 (though his team still failed to do much of significance) but I would make the call against him.

Palmer - Has had tough bouts with injuries, but has also seen his performance suffer mightily. After his breakout year in (iirc) 05 he has seen his play gradually decline. Has only had one year of sure-fire top play, with one fringe season and two seasons (the most recent) that don't measure up.

Others who could be called into question include:



Rivers - Had an excellent first season, followed by a less than impressive sophomore effort. However, I would argue that he was brilliant enough in the most current season to make up for that, especially considering how well he rates in the other criteria.

Eli - Just doesn't have the statistical chops to hang with everyone being considered here. I almost would have eliminated him, but the reality is the guy has done enough in other areas (see below) to overcome the fact that he just isn't that consistently good. Even so, if I decided to make the argument otherwise, I certainly could build a strong case.



3. TEAM SUCCESS

How has the team done under the guidance of this QB?

Ultimately, the goal of every team is (or should be) to contend for a championship. Does the player demonstrate that a) he has the ability to consistently give his team a chance to win and b) has it become apparent that this player is part of the problem rather than part of the solution in relation to the team's overall goals?

This criterion is closely related to #4 (see below), and at times has resulted in players like Drew Bledsoe, Daunte Culpepper, Randal Cunningham, Aaron Brooks, Jeff George, and Jeff Garcia (to name a few) being cut loose despite relatively good marks in other aspects of this exercise.

I can't see a player who could be unilaterally dismissed because of this (at least one who hasn't already been eliminated), but arguments can be made against the following players:


Tony Romo - The big argument against Romo. Choker? Butterfingers? The intangible criticisms that have been leveled against him are too many to catalogue. Some feel that he doesn't play well in big games. Others claim that he isn't good enough in the clutch. It is a fact that he hasn't won a single playoff game...but if that were enough, we could cross Peyton Manning circa 2003 off this list and I'm sure anyone in their right mind wouldn't argue for that. In the end, not enough evidence exists to demonstrate that Tony is holding the team back from achieving it's goals, considering the small sample size and his wealth of accomplishments. This is to be continued.

Eli Manning - I would argue that not much is different between Eli and Romo, except the horde of Giant fans would probably crucify me. What is the difference between the two? Eli has gone to the playoffs 4 times, and has been one and done 3 of them. Typically, when the Giants lose, it is because of a plethora of mistakes on his part. Rarely does he ever play well in a loss. Not just that, but his continual struggles with accuracy and consistency plague the G-Men constantly. For me, this would be enough to remove him from the list. Except for the ring.

Drew Brees - What, exactly, has Brees done? Won a single playoff game? By 3 points versus a team without its starting QB before getting blown out by 25 the next week? He continually puts up big numbers (though not necessarily good ones) for a team that is never a serious threat to win anything.

At no point in his career has he ever QBed a team that was considered a contender...oh, wait, that's right. He directed a 12-4 San Diego team into the playoffs in his 3rd year starting before losing at home to a mediocre Jets team. He has QBed talented teams to the following records : 9-7, 3-13-, 10-6, 7-9, 8-8 in each of the last 5 years of playing QB, including ONE playoff appearance.

Which is all not to say that he was THE reason why his teams struggled. But still, this is the NFL. QBs are judged by winning and losing.

Yet he gets a free pass.

4. TEAM CONFIDENCE

Here's the other shoe. A franchise QB is one which the franchise protects as if protecting itself. There are no "we'll see we can accomodate his wishes" or "(enter name of QB) has to do what's in his best interests, we understand that." No. The team operates in unison with the player and the player never questions the devotion that team has for him and his importance to the them. Ever.

Once this begins to waver with a player who WAS once a franchise guy, it can get ugly fast.

Players that this removes from the list include:

Donovan McNabb - The writing on the wall has been there since they so brazenly pursued Kevin Kolb in the 07 draft. He could have been mentioned as a possible elimination candidate for criterion 2, as his performance has not been consistently good enough to warrant consideration as a top QB. However, the true sign that he isn't a franchise QB is the fact that his franchise has begun to distance itself from him. Which is a shame, because I still think he's good enough to be The Man for at least another two years. I wonder if there isn't something going on behind the scenes here.

Warner - Again, Warner could very well have been eliminated after #2, as he wasn't a consistently top QB before last year. I gave him some slack because I always believed that it was just a matter of him getting some protection. If others feel differently, they are welcome to.

He also barely made the mark from the standpoint of notoriety and team success, but I think the SB trip has done enough to let him last this long--though barely.

But the real issue with him as a franchise guy is that his team isn't 100% committed to him. They gave him a contract because they were sort of forced into it, but they haven't made their bed with him. And why should they? He's 38. He could fall apart at any minute. The fact that he's still playing (let alone how well) at this age is a minor miracle.



All told that leaves the following QBs with no marks against them:

Peyton, Brady, Roethlisberger.

The next tier of players who only have one mark against them:

Romo, Rivers, Brees

And Eli, who (probably to be disputed by the legion of Giants fans) has two marks against him.

Those are the 7 true franchise guys, though. The ones that past the test from every angle. They are their franchises.

killxswitch
04-17-2009, 07:52 AM
I disagree with killswitch on some counts.... like Chad Pennington (though he had a phenomenal year) is likely being replaced as of 2010 by Henne.... I also think players like Russell should be ahead or at leas ton par with Schaub and Garrard.
I also don't think McNabb's future is as set in stone as others think because he was benched last year and IMO could be out of town as early as next year if Philly falls hard in 09.

It just depends on how you think he'll do this year. He will obviously get a chance to prove that last year was not a fluke. I thought about putting him in the "unproven" category but decided to give him credit for some success in NY before he was kicked out.

As far as Russell bieng on a level with Schaub and Garrard in what universe has he done anything to deserve that? I like Russell's potential and want him to succeed, but he has not proven himself in the NFL yet. Schaub had a good season when healthy last year and Garrard has at least been effective before in the NFL (with complete crap for receivers too).

McNabb getting benched last year has been widely regarded as a dumb move by Reid.

Gay Ork Wang
04-17-2009, 08:42 AM
how does romo have sustained level of play if everyone critize him for playing bad in December?

3pac
04-17-2009, 11:32 AM
Obviously the problem here is defining what makes a player a "franchise" QB. The first place to start is by simply looking at the damn term. Franchise.

The term began as a moniker for players who WERE the franchise. Meaning when you thought of a franchise, you thought of that player simultaneously. A player cannot be a franchise player after one season, no matter how well he played or how charming his story.

We should approach it through process of elimination, according to a variety of different criteria.

Beginning with:


1. NOTORIETY

Do you know the player? If you walked up to an average NFL fan (not just the average person, but a fan of the league) would he know the player without fail? A franchise QB must be so closely associated with his franchise that any person who is familiar with that franchise should also be familiar with that player.

This immediately disqualfies Flacco, Edwards, Cutler, Cassel, Ryan, Pennington, Campbell, Rodgers and Anderson/Quinn, Schaub, Collins (though not Vince :P ), Gerrard, Orton, Russell, Stafford, Sage/Tavaris, Hill.

2. SUSTAINED LEVEL OF PLAY

The QB must have played at a high level for a reasonable length of time. By high level we're talking about at least top 10 QB for the majority of the given time period in which the question is posed. This allows for a certain amount of room for ups and downs--ie, Brady blowing his knee out for a season does not ruin it for him, but if he were to come back and follow that up with another full season of bad play he would then have to at least be put on warning, if not removed from the list entirely, for having gone 2 consecutive years without producing quality QB play for his team--but that only goes so far.

This removes imo:

Hasselbeck - has gone two of the last three years with just horrible, horrible play, injury riddled and unreliable. This could def. be argued since he had a strong 07 (though his team still failed to do much of significance) but I would make the call against him.

Palmer - Has had tough bouts with injuries, but has also seen his performance suffer mightily. After his breakout year in (iirc) 05 he has seen his play gradually decline. Has only had one year of sure-fire top play, with one fringe season and two seasons (the most recent) that don't measure up.

Others who could be called into question include:



Rivers - Had an excellent first season, followed by a less than impressive sophomore effort. However, I would argue that he was brilliant enough in the most current season to make up for that, especially considering how well he rates in the other criteria.

Eli - Just doesn't have the statistical chops to hang with everyone being considered here. I almost would have eliminated him, but the reality is the guy has done enough in other areas (see below) to overcome the fact that he just isn't that consistently good. Even so, if I decided to make the argument otherwise, I certainly could build a strong case.



3. TEAM SUCCESS

How has the team done under the guidance of this QB?

Ultimately, the goal of every team is (or should be) to contend for a championship. Does the player demonstrate that a) he has the ability to consistently give his team a chance to win and b) has it become apparent that this player is part of the problem rather than part of the solution in relation to the team's overall goals?

This criterion is closely related to #4 (see below), and at times has resulted in players like Drew Bledsoe, Daunte Culpepper, Randal Cunningham, Aaron Brooks, Jeff George, and Jeff Garcia (to name a few) being cut loose despite relatively good marks in other aspects of this exercise.

I can't see a player who could be unilaterally dismissed because of this (at least one who hasn't already been eliminated), but arguments can be made against the following players:


Tony Romo - The big argument against Romo. Choker? Butterfingers? The intangible criticisms that have been leveled against him are too many to catalogue. Some feel that he doesn't play well in big games. Others claim that he isn't good enough in the clutch. It is a fact that he hasn't won a single playoff game...but if that were enough, we could cross Peyton Manning circa 2003 off this list and I'm sure anyone in their right mind wouldn't argue for that. In the end, not enough evidence exists to demonstrate that Tony is holding the team back from achieving it's goals, considering the small sample size and his wealth of accomplishments. This is to be continued.

Eli Manning - I would argue that not much is different between Eli and Romo, except the horde of Giant fans would probably crucify me. What is the difference between the two? Eli has gone to the playoffs 4 times, and has been one and done 3 of them. Typically, when the Giants lose, it is because of a plethora of mistakes on his part. Rarely does he ever play well in a loss. Not just that, but his continual struggles with accuracy and consistency plague the G-Men constantly. For me, this would be enough to remove him from the list. Except for the ring.

Drew Brees - What, exactly, has Brees done? Won a single playoff game? By 3 points versus a team without its starting QB before getting blown out by 25 the next week? He continually puts up big numbers (though not necessarily good ones) for a team that is never a serious threat to win anything.

At no point in his career has he ever QBed a team that was considered a contender...oh, wait, that's right. He directed a 12-4 San Diego team into the playoffs in his 3rd year starting before losing at home to a mediocre Jets team. He has QBed talented teams to the following records : 9-7, 3-13-, 10-6, 7-9, 8-8 in each of the last 5 years of playing QB, including ONE playoff appearance.

Which is all not to say that he was THE reason why his teams struggled. But still, this is the NFL. QBs are judged by winning and losing.

Yet he gets a free pass.

4. TEAM CONFIDENCE

Here's the other shoe. A franchise QB is one which the franchise protects as if protecting itself. There are no "we'll see we can accomodate his wishes" or "(enter name of QB) has to do what's in his best interests, we understand that." No. The team operates in unison with the player and the player never questions the devotion that team has for him and his importance to the them. Ever.

Once this begins to waver with a player who WAS once a franchise guy, it can get ugly fast.

Players that this removes from the list include:

Donovan McNabb - The writing on the wall has been there since they so brazenly pursued Kevin Kolb in the 07 draft. He could have been mentioned as a possible elimination candidate for criterion 2, as his performance has not been consistently good enough to warrant consideration as a top QB. However, the true sign that he isn't a franchise QB is the fact that his franchise has begun to distance itself from him. Which is a shame, because I still think he's good enough to be The Man for at least another two years. I wonder if there isn't something going on behind the scenes here.

Warner - Again, Warner could very well have been eliminated after #2, as he wasn't a consistently top QB before last year. I gave him some slack because I always believed that it was just a matter of him getting some protection. If others feel differently, they are welcome to.

He also barely made the mark from the standpoint of notoriety and team success, but I think the SB trip has done enough to let him last this long--though barely.

But the real issue with him as a franchise guy is that his team isn't 100% committed to him. They gave him a contract because they were sort of forced into it, but they haven't made their bed with him. And why should they? He's 38. He could fall apart at any minute. The fact that he's still playing (let alone how well) at this age is a minor miracle.



All told that leaves the following QBs with no marks against them:

Peyton, Brady, Roethlisberger.

The next tier of players who only have one mark against them:

Romo, Rivers, Brees

And Eli, who (probably to be disputed by the legion of Giants fans) has two marks against him.

Those are the 7 true franchise guys, though. The ones that past the test from every angle. They are their franchises.

This.....was......beautiful. Well done, sir.

DMWSackMachine
04-17-2009, 03:05 PM
how does romo have sustained level of play if everyone critize him for playing bad in December?

He's played at a very high level for 3 straight years. There is no arguing that.



Rather, if you wanted to argue the December point it would have to go under Team Success, as a question of whether he is part of what is holding the Cowboys back. Its something worthy of note, and its a blemish on his record, but my comment about Peyton was made directly in response to such doubts.

There were plenty of detractors who claimed that HE WAS THE REASON why the Colts couldn't win in the playoffs. Does that mean he wasn't a franchise guy in 2003? It sounds absurd now, but there were some that made the argument at the time.

Tony is obviously a terrific QB. The team struggled last year due to management issues, and ultimately collapsed under the weight of their failures in that department. Some will always blame the QB, no matter what. But if you look at the evidence, there just isn't enough to make a legitimate case there considering everything else that he has done.

D-Unit
04-17-2009, 03:21 PM
Renji is getting owned by DWM.

BuddyCHRIST
04-17-2009, 04:56 PM
I pretty much consider a Franchise QB a guy who the team doesn't even think about drafting/signing a guy to replace them. And when you think about the draft, they are completely ruled out because they have their guy. Pretty much a guy as a clear cut long term starter who has also proven some things.

So with that I'd prolly say...
Manning
Brady
Roethlisberger
Rivers
Cutler
Rodgers
Brees
Ryan
Romo
Flacco

I consider Romo a franchise guy even though alot of people don't, he's a great young QB and Cowboys would be fools to consider going somewhere else. Flacco I'm not 100% on as ehh I dunno I just watch him and I can't make up my mind, I know he led them to the AFC championship but still something still doesnt instill confidence in me.

With alot of other people's criteria like consistent and playoff success, the only 3 guys I'd consider would be Manning, Brady and Roethlisberger

vikes_28
04-19-2009, 04:48 PM
http://doublethepost.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/taravis-jackson.jpg

killxswitch
04-20-2009, 07:59 AM
I pretty much consider a Franchise QB a guy who the team doesn't even think about drafting/signing a guy to replace them. And when you think about the draft, they are completely ruled out because they have their guy. Pretty much a guy as a clear cut long term starter who has also proven some things.

So with that I'd prolly say...
Manning
Brady
Roethlisberger
Rivers
Cutler
Rodgers
Brees
Ryan
Romo
Flacco

I consider Romo a franchise guy even though alot of people don't, he's a great young QB and Cowboys would be fools to consider going somewhere else. Flacco I'm not 100% on as ehh I dunno I just watch him and I can't make up my mind, I know he led them to the AFC championship but still something still doesnt instill confidence in me.

With alot of other people's criteria like consistent and playoff success, the only 3 guys I'd consider would be Manning, Brady and Roethlisberger

Cutler? Sure the Bears won't consider replacing him, because they just traded for him. Under your own defintion I don't think you can call Cutler a franchise QB. By that definition Matt Schaub is more of a franchise QB since they traded his primary competition.

ncst8fan83
04-20-2009, 10:42 AM
2. SUSTAINED LEVEL OF PLAY

The QB must have played at a high level for a reasonable length of time. By high level we're talking about at least top 10 QB for the majority of the given time period in which the question is posed. This allows for a certain amount of room for ups and downs--ie, Brady blowing his knee out for a season does not ruin it for him, but if he were to come back and follow that up with another full season of bad play he would then have to at least be put on warning, if not removed from the list entirely, for having gone 2 consecutive years without producing quality QB play for his team--but that only goes so far.

This removes imo:

Hasselbeck - has gone two of the last three years with just horrible, horrible play, injury riddled and unreliable. This could def. be argued since he had a strong 07 (though his team still failed to do much of significance) but I would make the call against him.

Palmer - Has had tough bouts with injuries, but has also seen his performance suffer mightily. After his breakout year in (iirc) 05 he has seen his play gradually decline. Has only had one year of sure-fire top play, with one fringe season and two seasons (the most recent) that don't measure up.

Others who could be called into question include:



Rivers - Had an excellent first season, followed by a less than impressive sophomore effort. However, I would argue that he was brilliant enough in the most current season to make up for that, especially considering how well he rates in the other criteria.

Eli - Just doesn't have the statistical chops to hang with everyone being considered here. I almost would have eliminated him, but the reality is the guy has done enough in other areas (see below) to overcome the fact that he just isn't that consistently good. Even so, if I decided to make the argument otherwise, I certainly could build a strong case.

How has Roethlisberger had sustained level of play? He's had one good season. Maybe two if you want to count 2005, but it was more of a Chad Pennington good than a Peyton Manning good. 2007 was a great year for Ben, but aside from that, he's just hanging onto the coattails of his defense. If you're going to knock Eli and Philip for it, then Ben has to be mentioned there as well. If you want stats, I've got those for you too.:)

DMWSackMachine
04-22-2009, 03:17 AM
How has Roethlisberger had sustained level of play? He's had one good season. Maybe two if you want to count 2005, but it was more of a Chad Pennington good than a Peyton Manning good. 2007 was a great year for Ben, but aside from that, he's just hanging onto the coattails of his defense. If you're going to knock Eli and Philip for it, then Ben has to be mentioned there as well. If you want stats, I've got those for you too.:)

One good season? We're talking about a guy that has posted 3 top 5 passer ratings in 5 years in the NFL. I'd say that was consistently good.

Not just that, but his one really bad season was almost certainly a result of off-season trauma and season-long injury. A season that he immediately bounced back from in posting his best season as a passer.


This most recent season is a little more perplexing. He started fairly strong, iirc, but seemed to fade late. Not just that, his team doesn't seem to have a real clue offensively. If he posts another two years like this one, I would definitely consider posting it as a strike on his record. I have a hard time really discounting a guys play when his team is winning so many games...and without a real running threat this year, as well.

I can see that his mediocre 2008 could be a problem, but for a guy that has been so consistently great in the past, I am willing to cut some serious slack. All the great ones have down years.

BuddyCHRIST
04-22-2009, 10:28 AM
Cutler? Sure the Bears won't consider replacing him, because they just traded for him. Under your own defintion I don't think you can call Cutler a franchise QB. By that definition Matt Schaub is more of a franchise QB since they traded his primary competition.

Your probably right, but I like Cutler and think the Broncos were idiots to create the situation so I consider him a franchise guy. Schaub I thought about but he seems to be injured quite a bit, and I'm not personally sold on him being a great QB.

Also people like to knock Roethlisberger's stats, and I did before this superbowl because I too thought he was just a product of a great team. But it's tough to argue with how clutch he is, and he's really sold me on him being one of the top QB's in the league.

NOLA
04-22-2009, 11:46 AM
You give up a 2nd round pick for a guy that franchise is asking you to be a franchise QB. So i'd add Sage Roesnfels and Matt Cassell.