2009 NFC North Positional Rankings

[Somse]

2009 NFC North Positional Rankings

Offense

Overall Offense:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

QB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Detroit Lions

RB:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

WR/TE:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

Defense

Overall Defense:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

DL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

LB:
1. Chicago Bears
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Detroit Lions

DB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

[Kid_Ego]

Minnesota 3rd at LB? uhm HELL NO no worse then second probably first
Henderson Greenway and Leber? Popinga Barnett Hawk? atleast second and last year Briggs and urlacher got there butts handed to them.

[Somse]

Minnesota 3rd at LB? uhm HELL NO no worse then second probably first
Henderson Greenway and Leber? Popinga Barnett Hawk? atleast second and last year Briggs and urlacher got there butts handed to them.

Vikings' linebackers benefit greatly from playing behind that great offensive line. Henderson and Leber are mostly just thumpers. Greenway is a rising player but he's still not as good as Urlacher or Briggs.

Packers have Barnett, Hawk, Kampman, Poppinga, and Chillar at LB. It's obviously an awkward comparison because of the schematic differences but I think on paper the Packers are more impressive. Kampman is an elite player, Barnett is better than Greenway, etc.

[princefielder28]

Vikings' linebackers benefit greatly from playing behind that great offensive line. Henderson and Leber are mostly just thumpers. Greenway is a rising player but he's still not as good as Urlacher or Briggs.

Packers have Barnett, Hawk, Kampman, Poppinga, and Chillar at LB. It's obviously an awkward comparison because of the schematic differences but I think on paper the Packers are more impressive. Kampman is an elite player, Barnett is better than Greenway, etc.

I have to agree with Kid_Ego. Greenway/Henderson/Leber is as solid a LB unit as there is the league and there is no way you can consider the Packers ahead of the Vikings or Bears because of the unknown with their transition to a 3-4 defense.

[ffuns]

I have to agree with Kid_Ego. Greenway/Henderson/Leber is as solid a LB unit as there is the league and there is no way you can consider the Packers ahead of the Vikings or Bears because of the unknown with their transition to a 3-4 defense.

Yup, I definitely agree that the Packers have more question marks there because of the 3-4 transition. Just from a talent perspective I have a hard time putting Henderson/Leber/Greenway over Kampman/Barnett/Hawk/Chillar/Poppinga.

Projected on the field play though, you guys have a point and the Packers should likely be 3rd there because of the uncertainty. I would edit it if I could...

[Kid_Ego]

Plus in my mind I have a hard time projecting where everyone fits in?

Kampmen an olb? something tells me thats a liability on pass defense/coverage
Hawk in side makes since
but barnett inside ? kind of small and inury concerns
poppinga is only starting because they havent found anyone to beat him out.
I am still waiting to see how it all plays out I almost think there would of been a better chance of the bears or the vikings making this move then the packers in my opinion they dont have great personell for this move yet. But Dom Capers is a geat 3-4 coach he has done more wit less so im looking forward to seeing it asll pay out

[hagy34]

EJ Henderson isn't just a thumper. He's great in the middle and has enough talent to be in the Pro Bowl this year if he's healthy. He's one of the best LB's in this entire division.

[Kid_Ego]

EJ has finally become the player Mike Tice thought hed be. The sad part is I think Tice was one of our better drafter's
Kevin WIlliams
EJ Henderson
Mewelde Moore
Nate Burleson
those were all pretty good picks

[hagy34]

They were great picks. And word is that he wanted Merriman in 2005 and not Williamson but he was over ruled. That would've been an even better pick!!!

[GB12]

It's hard to compare the Packers front 7 because it's still unkown about the switch. And then even afterwards it'll still be hard to compare because we're the only 3-4 team in the division.

Kampman being counted as a LB definitely puts the Packers over the Vikings there though.

[jsa230]

Minnys backers get soo overrated because of the ruthless d-line in minny, hawk>greenyway, barnett>henerson, kampman>>>leber

[GB12]

Minnys backers get soo overrated because of the ruthless d-line in minny, hawk>greenyway, barnett>henerson, kampman>>>leber
Definitely flip Greenway and Hawk right now.

[TitleTown088]

Definitely flip Greenway and Hawk right now.


Sadly, yes.

BF51... Sig owned.

[marshallb]

Definitely flip Greenway and Hawk right now.

I'd also definitely flip Henderson and Barnett there. When Henderson was healthy, he was one of the best LBs in the league.

[GB12]

I'd also definitely flip Henderson and Barnett there. When Henderson was healthy, he was one of the best LBs in the league.
The same could be said about Barnett. From 2004-2007 he was a top MLB in the NFL.

[bearsfan_51]

The same could be said about Barnett. From 2004-2007 he was a top MLB in the NFL.

No he wasn't. Packers fans have always drastically overrated Barnett. He's a solid starter, that's it. I'd say the same thing about Henderson as well though.

[bearsfan_51]

2009 NFC North Positional Rankings

Offense

Overall Offense:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

QB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Detroit Lions

RB:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

WR/TE:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

Defense

Overall Defense:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

DL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

LB:
1. Chicago Bears
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Detroit Lions

DB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

You still think the Vikings have a better offense than the Bears after the Jay Culter trade? Get the **** out of here.

Overall Offense
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Detroit Lions

QB
1. Chicago Bears
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Detroit Lions
4. Minnesota Vikings

RB
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

WR/TE
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL
1. Chicago Bears
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

Overall Defense
1. Minnesota Vikings (barely)
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

DL
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

LB
1. Chicago Bears
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

Secondary
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Chiago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

Special Teams
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Minnesota Vikings

Coaching
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions
3. Green Bay Packers


4. Minnesota Vikings

[bearsfan_51]

and last year Briggs and urlacher got there butts handed to them.
Lance Briggs was the best 4-3 linebacker last year. Our run defense was phenomenal last year almost entirely because of Urlacher and Briggs.

[thenewfeature06]

i feel that now that harvin was drafted that minnesota can have a balanced attack now as long as sage does his job, harvin,berrian,rice,and wade are legit recievers and has their moments and loadholt can make an immidiate impact imo

[bearsfan_51]

i feel that now that harvin was drafted that minnesota can have a balanced attack now as long as sage does his job, harvin,berrian,rice,and wade are legit recievers and has their moments and loadholt can make an immidiate impact imo

What are the odds that actually happens?

I'm not sure Sidney Rice, Percy Harvin, or Bobby Wade can be called legit either. Two of them have done nothing in the pros, the other is a midget.

[bearsfan_51]

By the way, on a totally unrelated note, I enjoyed how Percy Harvin couldn't name anyone on the Vikings other than Adrian Peterson.

"I'm looking forward to working with some great players like Adrian Peterson, the quarterback and uh...some of..uh...those players."

He also said "uh", by my count, 36 times in a 52 second clip. Great SEC education.

[BeerBaron]

You know....if WR and TE are both included in the "WR/TE" portion, I think the Bears should maybe push the Vikings, maybe get ahead of them.

[BGB]

So where do the Vikings rank when Favre joins the squad? Let the offseason circus begin again.

[GB12]

So where do the Vikings rank when Favre joins the squad? Let the offseason circus begin again.
As wrong as this would have sounded two years ago, if Favre was in the NFC North he'd be the third best QB.

[StorminNorman]

[Overall Offense:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Detroit Lions
4. Chicago Bears

QB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Minnesota Vikings

RB:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

WR/TE:
1. Detroit Lions
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

Defense

Overall Defense:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

DL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

LB:
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions (expecting Foote - 3rd without him)
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Minnesota Vikings

DB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

[bearsfan_51]

[Overall Offense:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Detroit Lions
4. Chicago Bears

QB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Minnesota Vikings

RB:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

WR/TE:
1. Detroit Lions
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions
So, the Bears are better than the Lions in 3/4 categories, but are somehow inferior on offense. That makes sense.

Seriously, the Vikings over the Bears is questionable, but the Lions over the Bears is ******* insane.

[drowe]

ranked by unit as a whole...or individual player. depending on what the situation called for.


Overall offense
1-Packers-as of now, the only proven, complete offense in the division.
2-Vikings-i think they did the best job of making immediate improvements. Loadholt is an immediate upgrade at RT, and Harvin could make it a pretty dynamic offense. seriously, Rice-Berrian-Harvin could be a legit trio.
3-Bears-Cutler will help in the long term...but, really with big questions at o-line and WR, he could be in for a rude awakening in 2009.
4-Lions-Calvin Johnson and some of his friends.

QB
1-Cutler-I do think Aaron Rodgers will have the best season, but on talent alone, Cutler is #1.
2-Rodgers-See above.
3-Rosenfels-he came into a real good situation. he might surprise some people.
4-Culpepper/Stafford-CJ can make them look good if the O-line doesn't kill 'em first

RB
1-AD-duh.
2-Matt Forte
3-Kevin Smith
4-Ryan Grant-yup.

WR
1-Packers-Jennings/Driver/Nelson=YAC monsters
2-Vikings-Berrian/Rice/Harvin-all comes down to Harvin. he could put 'em over the top.
3-Lions-Bryant Johnson was a highly underrated signing.
4-Bears-and if there were a position lower than 4, they'd get that.

Offensive Line-
-ya know what. screw it. every team in our division has the potential to have a pretty bad o-line. The Vikings lost Birk and are really counting on Loadholt emerging right away. The Bears are also relying on an unproven young guy (Williams) and this has been a weakness for them anyway. the Packers have to replace Tauscher, not to mention the fact that Clifton is slipping. and the Lions seem to have forgetten they HAVE an o-line.

[Crazy_Chris]

[Overall Offense:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Minnesota Vikings
3. Detroit Lions
4. Chicago Bears

QB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Minnesota Vikings

RB:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

WR/TE:
1. Detroit Lions
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

OL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Detroit Lions

Defense

Overall Defense:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

DL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

LB:
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions (expecting Foote - 3rd without him)
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Minnesota Vikings

DB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

Wow Detroit's secondary over Minnesota and Chicago? I hope you are kidding. Also Detroit's LB corp even with Foote would not better than the Vikings or the Packers.

Edit:Also I don't see how you could put Detroit's WR/TE over Green Bay sure Calvin Johnson is an absolute beast but there isn't much there after him especially compared to a deep WR corp such as Green Bay.

[bearsfan_51]

After checking, Stormin Normin is a Lions fan, so that may explain his rankings a bit.

[Crazy_Chris]

Ah, yes that would seem to explain his rankings.

[StorminNorman]

So, the Bears are better than the Lions in 3/4 categories, but are somehow inferior on offense. That makes sense.

I don't consider the difference between Forte and Smith to be that great, I also have big questions about how much Cutler helps the Bears offense due to the lack of talent at wide receiver and TE.

Seriously, the Vikings over the Bears is questionable, but the Lions over the Bears is ******* insane.

I disagree. I love the addition of Pettigrew, and I think having a competent QB allows Calvin Johnson to dominate.

Wow Detroit's secondary over Minnesota and Chicago? I hope you are kidding. Also Detroit's LB corp even with Foote would not better than the Vikings or the Packers.

I disagree. I really like the additions of Buchanon, Henry and Delmas in Detroit. I don't like either the Bears or the Vikings depth at CB. Also, a LB trio of Peterson/Foote/Sims is one of the best in the league. It's much better than the Packers and, IMO, edges out the Vikings.

Edit:Also I don't see how you could put Detroit's WR/TE over Green Bay sure Calvin Johnson is an absolute beast but there isn't much there after him especially compared to a deep WR corp such as Green Bay.

Calvin Johnson and Brandon Pettigrew are physical freaks - Calvin Johnson alone qualifies the position. I also really like the veterans they added in Bryant Johnson and Ronald Curry.

[StorminNorman]

After checking, Stormin Normin is a Lions fan, so that may explain his rankings a bit.

You are a Bears fan, that would explain your ratings.

I think the majority of posters in the "NFC North Forum" are fans of one NFC North team or another.

[tjsunstein]

1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions
3. Green Bay Packers


4. Minnesota Vikings

How are you determining this?


WR/TE:
1. Detroit Lions
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

Overall Defense:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Chicago Bears
3. Detroit Lions
4. Green Bay Packers

DL:
1. Minnesota Vikings
2. Green Bay Packers
3. Chicago Bears
4. Detroit Lions

LB:
1. Chicago Bears
2. Detroit Lions (expecting Foote - 3rd without him)
3. Green Bay Packers
4. Minnesota Vikings

DB:
1. Green Bay Packers
2. Detroit Lions
3. Minnesota Vikings
4. Chicago Bears

Are you serious? So the Packers are better than the Lions in every category except linebackers and even then, it's a hypothetical situation but the Lions have a better defense? Explain this, please. And you're way too much of a homer. Lions WR/TE are not better than the Packers, go ahead and mention Calvin but mention Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Martin, and James Jones. There's no way in hell that the Lions WR/TE are better than the Packers, I'm sorry.

[StorminNorman]

Are you serious? So the Packers are better than the Lions in every category except linebackers and even then, it's a hypothetical situation but the Lions have a better defense? Explain this, please.

It's simple really - I clearly think that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

I am not proposing that my ratings are right without question, they are just my thoughts - every bit as credible as anyone's at this point in the season.

[marshallb]

The Vikings LBs at #4 in the division!!! Greenway/Henderson/Leber is a heck of a group. Henderson and Greenway are both studs and Leber is a good starter. I definitely think they could arguably be #1, but no way they are #4. I'd rank Chicago's LBs over Minnesota's, but it isn't that far off. Briggs and Urlacher are great, as are Greenway and Henderson, and I'd take Leber over Hillenmeyer, but they are close as well. Green Bay's LBs have too many question marks with their transition to the 3-4. Sims is overrated and hasn't been near as good since Shaun Rogers left, Peterson is good, but Foote is the 4th best MLB in the division.

There is a lot of homerism in those rankings, as is expected in anyone's rankings, but looking at your rankings, you'd think the Lions are a middle of the pack team, which they clearly aren't.

[Crazy_Chris]

I disagree. I really like the additions of Buchanon, Henry and Delmas in Detroit. I don't like either the Bears or the Vikings depth at CB. Also, a LB trio of Peterson/Foote/Sims is one of the best in the league. It's much better than the Packers and, IMO, edges out the Vikings.

Well Delmas shouldn't even enter into the equation of secondary he has yet to play a single down of professional ball so his impact cannot be judged as a good or bad addition yet. Also while Henry and Buchanon are good additions, Antione Winfied is still better than either of them, and Cedric Griffin is arguably better than Anthony Henry at this point in his career. As for depth I don't see why you don't like the Vikings depth. As for the depth I'll cut you a break as you aren't a fan of the Vikes you wouldn't watch them often enough to get a feeling for the depth but they have a lot of guys there. Now as for the safety position the Vikings starters are both better as of now. Louis may turn out to be better than one of them but he is a an unknown right now.

For the Bears it's the same thing I'll take their starting duo over the lions, I am not so sure about the bears depth as I didn't pay attention to most of them. And for Safeties. The Bears aren't too strong at safety but give me Kevin Payne over anyone the Lions have right now.

As for LB Peterson, Sims, and possibly foote is a good corp but Foote isn't official so we will leave him out of the convo right now. Chad Greenway is developing into a excellent LB and at this point in his career(only 2 years starting) he is just as good of a SAM as Julian Peterson if not better. WOLB Ernie Sims has been disappointing right now, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and I will put him equal with underated Leber. EJ Henderson blows your the incumbent(Dizon) MLB out of the water, and even with the possibility of foote EJ is much better.

It's very difficult to compare the packers new 3-4 LB corp to the 4-3 ones. So I am not goin to try, however for a 4-3 team give me Hawk and Barnett over Sims & Peterson.

Calvin Johnson and Brandon Pettigrew are physical freaks - Calvin Johnson alone qualifies the position. I also really like the veterans they added in Bryant Johnson and Ronald Curry.


I really don't see how you can classify Pettigrew as a "physical freak" there isn't really anything freakish about him. He has the potential to be a decent pass catcher and a very good blocker. A freakish TE prospect wasn't going to last until #20. We all know Calvin is a freak but Bryant Johnson isn't that great at all hell the 49er's didn't even want to re-sign the guy. Ronald Curry is pretty good but Green Bay's depth at WR is just too good. Aswell they have a decent TE in Donald Lee and Jermichael Finley flashed nice potential. But in the end what it comes down to like I said is that the depth on the GB Corp is too good to even think about putting the lions above them.

[Crazy_Chris]

How are you determining this?



Are you serious? So the Packers are better than the Lions in every category except linebackers and even then, it's a hypothetical situation but the Lions have a better defense? Explain this, please. And you're way too much of a homer. Lions WR/TE are not better than the Packers, go ahead and mention Calvin but mention Jennings, Driver, Nelson, Martin, and James Jones. There's no way in hell that the Lions WR/TE are better than the Packers, I'm sorry.

Wow didn't even notice that he had the Lions having a better overall defense than the Packers. The packers may have a question mark due to switching scemes so it is a bit unknown how well they will transition to the 3-4 right away. However even with that I would take that defense over the Lions defense in a heartbeat.

[The Dynasty]

The Lions should have the Number 4 defensive with out any questions. Dont give me all these new additions crap. They gave up 517 points on defense last year and 6,470 yards last year. They ranked 32 in defense. There is no way the Lions Defense is better than the Packers until it is proven.

[Addict]

I'm a lions fan, but I would take any NFC North D over the Lion's. I like where our offense is going though. Defense would need a few more years to get good... and by good I mean decent.

[tjsunstein]

The Lions didn't win a god damn game last year and they have a better defense than the Packers going into the year. GTFO.

[Addict]

come on guys, there's no need to gang-disagree with him. I think he got the point.

[Gay Ork Wang]

i bet he doesnt

[bearsfan_51]

Yeah, I don't think he does either. There's a difference between having fan bias and being a homer.

That's fine, it's all a matter of opinion, but expect to be strongly criticized. That's the nature of the game.


In response to the question of my coaching rankings. Schwartz is an unknown. That, to me, clearly puts him above Childress who has proven to be a ****** coach, and IMO McCarthy as well. I'm just not a fan of McCarthy's schemes, or his gameday planning. I'm comfortable with the Packers in the division so long as he's their head coach.

I'm also a fan of Schwartz from his work with the Titans. Dude seems like he knows what he's doing.

[Gay Ork Wang]

i think he wants to know why u ranked the bears the highest

[umphrey]

I could see the Packers LBers being first in the division, easily. We added Kampman and Matthews III to a group that already included Hawk and Barnett. I can see why they aren't getting high ratings now (also, Bears/Vikings LBers are pretty damn good too) but expect to see some outstanding play from that unit especially later in the year. No chance are the Lions LBers or overall defense even close to what the Packers have.

[marshallb]

I could see the Packers LBers being first in the division, easily. We added Kampman and Matthews III to a group that already included Hawk and Barnett. I can see why they aren't getting high ratings now (also, Bears/Vikings LBers are pretty damn good too) but expect to see some outstanding play from that unit especially later in the year. No chance are the Lions LBers or overall defense even close to what the Packers have.

I see what you're saying, but there are a lot of question marks about them. How is Kampman going to do at OLB, how will Matthews do in his rookie season. Not to mention that Hawk had a down year last year and although Barnett was hurt and missed 7 games last year, he had a pretty poor year when he did play. It is also extremely hard to compare 4-3 and 3-4 LBs since they are asked to do totally different things, not to mention one that is transitioning to 3-4.

[SFbear]

Serious question. Are the Green Bay linebackers still weak at covering tight ends or have they addressed the issue?

[StorminNorman]

Well Delmas shouldn't even enter into the equation of secondary he has yet to play a single down of professional ball so his impact cannot be judged as a good or bad addition yet.

Considering we are judging the 2009 NFC North and not the 2008 NFC North, it would be illogical not to take into account Delmas. If you want my rankings for the 2008 NFC North, Detroit would be last above the board.

Also while Henry and Buchanon are good additions, Antione Winfied is still better than either of them, and Cedric Griffin is arguably better than Anthony Henry at this point in his career. As for depth I don't see why you don't like the Vikings depth. As for the depth I'll cut you a break as you aren't a fan of the Vikes you wouldn't watch them often enough to get a feeling for the depth but they have a lot of guys there. Now as for the safety position the Vikings starters are both better as of now. Louis may turn out to be better than one of them but he is a an unknown right now.



For the Bears it's the same thing I'll take their starting duo over the lions, I am not so sure about the bears depth as I didn't pay attention to most of them. And for Safeties. The Bears aren't too strong at safety but give me Kevin Payne over anyone the Lions have right now.

I disagree. It's as simple as that - I disagree. There is nothing wrong with that.

As for LB Peterson, Sims, and possibly foote is a good corp but Foote isn't official so we will leave him out of the convo right now. Chad Greenway is developing into a excellent LB and at this point in his career(only 2 years starting) he is just as good of a SAM as Julian Peterson if not better. WOLB Ernie Sims has been disappointing right now, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and I will put him equal with underated Leber. EJ Henderson blows your the incumbent(Dizon) MLB out of the water, and even with the possibility of foote EJ is much better.

I disagree about Greenway being better than Peterson at this point in their careers, I would rather have Peterson. Ernie Sims has suffered from being the only linebacker in the Lions group, he has shown flashes of greatness though - I think he will thrive. Dizon is terrible, but he won't start the season at MLB. I fully believe Larry Foote will be a Detroit Lion come starting day, if that does not happen my rankings would be altered.

It's very difficult to compare the packers new 3-4 LB corp to the 4-3 ones. So I am not goin to try, however for a 4-3 team give me Hawk and Barnett over Sims & Peterson.

I would give you Hawk/Barnett for Sims/Peterson.

I really don't see how you can classify Pettigrew as a "physical freak" there isn't really anything freakish about him. He has the potential to be a decent pass catcher and a very good blocker. A freakish TE prospect wasn't going to last until #20. We all know Calvin is a freak but Bryant Johnson isn't that great at all hell the 49er's didn't even want to re-sign the guy. Ronald Curry is pretty good but Green Bay's depth at WR is just too good. Aswell they have a decent TE in Donald Lee and Jermichael Finley flashed nice potential. But in the end what it comes down to like I said is that the depth on the GB Corp is too good to even think about putting the lions above them.

I like Calvin Johnson significantly more than anyone else in the NFC North. I like B.J. and Curry as depth guys. Pettigrew is a huge target with soft hands who will help make Stafford an elite NFL QB.

You can argue that the Bills have more depth at WR than the Patriots do - Randy Moss makes the Patriots wide receiving group more dangerous.

Yeah, I don't think he does either. There's a difference between having fan bias and being a homer.

Trying to paint me as a homer is going to be funny. I am not a veteran Lions fan, I am a new one. As a UCF student and a Stafford fan, the addition of Kevin Smith and Matthew Stafford has a lot more to do with my association with the Lions than some deep loyalty.

That's fine, it's all a matter of opinion, but expect to be strongly criticized. That's the nature of the game.

I don't have any problem standing by the comments I make. I think that bashing someones pre-season thoughts, while still in the pre-season, only opens up the door for yourself to look rather foolish. The NFL is chaotic and unpredictable.

In response to the question of my coaching rankings. Schwartz is an unknown. That, to me, clearly puts him above Childress who has proven to be a ****** coach, and IMO McCarthy as well. I'm just not a fan of McCarthy's schemes, or his gameday planning. I'm comfortable with the Packers in the division so long as he's their head coach.

I'm also a fan of Schwartz from his work with the Titans. Dude seems like he knows what he's doing.

Schwartz is an unknown, but I love everything I see from him. The guy is brilliant and I agree with every decision he has made to date. The way he evaluated Stafford was huge for me - I think he and I are similar in our thought process.

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

Positional rankings are tough to do because each position could be dependent on another position. For instance, Minnesota Linebackers. I don't know how good they are and we probably won't know until Pat Williams retires or Detroit gets some damn Dlinemen. Greenway is a sure tackler and a good blitzer but he pretty much roams free because of the Vikings Dline. Sims has more speed than Greenway and is also a very sure tackler like Greenway. Greenway is a better blitzer but again people woudln't be focused as much as stopping a Greenway blitz as as Sims blitz because nobody requires a double team on Detroits line until now with Grady Jackson due to size only. Depth is another issue but again Napolean Harris didn't look too bad off the street(better than Lenon) because of the Vikings Dline whereas Ryan Nece off the street looked like **** in Detroit. Lenon and Sims looked much better in 2007 when they had Shaun Rogers.

Detroits WR depth is an unknown at this point. Bryan Johnson and Ronald Curry have had success in the past. They will not be the number 1 options like they were in San Fran and Oakland. They do have talent however and could fit their roles very nicely if we get some decent QB play. I'd take Green Bays depth and potential over both of them for 2009 plus they know they're playbook well and have a more experience young QB. Both WRs cores could do well though so it really doesn't matter.

Detroits secondary again is dependent on pressure from the Dline. Buchanon and Henry are veteran legitimate starters but neither are a number 1 corners. I don't know how they will do in Schwartz/Gunthers defense. Winfield is better than both of them and Griffen has more potential than both of them but Griffen does get beat a good amount and I wouldn't consider Griffen flat out better than both of them. If Henry and Buchanon were on their old teams would you still consider Griffen better? Green Bay obviously has the best corners with Woodson and Harris, Chicagos secondary got abused last year despite good run D too and Vasher can't stay healthy. What good is injured Vasher and how will he rebound from injury. Tillman is better than Buchanon and Henry but far from perfect. Nickel corner nobody really jumps out at me between Tramon Williams,McBride/Graham/Gordon/McCauley. Eric King is probably Detroits nickel corner coming from the Titans. Another unknown.

Safeties, Bigby and Collins are the best. Vikings Madieu is very good(probably the best safety in the division) but Tyrell Johnson/Kevin Payne are just like Daniel Bullocks. Bullocks is one of the very few surer tacklers in Detroit and another guy I wouldn't lay very much fault on the 0-16 season. A young guy with potential with some playing expereince. Delmas is an unknown but he's a pretty good rookie free safety to obtain. Better than Josh Bullocks or Tyrell Johnson right away, another unknown.

Dlines, this is where Detroit lacked last year and hurts the rest of their rankings. Cliff Avril led rookies in sacks but I'd take Alex Brown and obviously Jared Allen over Avril. Avril and Cullen Jenkins are too different kinds of players. Depends on the D I'm running I guess. DeWayne White is decent but he's not a base end but he will start so we'll probably be undersized at D-End. Ogunleye is a better end but Ray Edwards I don't know if he's better than DeWayne White. Other than that Detroits Dline is terrible, Grady as a stop gap nose which we need but Pat Williams,Raji are better. Dvorcek is the only questionable nose not as good as Grady. Grady's stamina is what hurts him when comparing him to Dusty however. Undertackle Harris and Kevin Williams are clearly better than Fluellen. Raji is a nose has has more potential than Fluellen but its completely different positions. Fluellen is a big unknown and probably will be weak as an undertackle especially with Grady's lack of stamina and no middle linebacker he'll look worse than he actually is.

Detroit is last in defense but there are some positions where we are good(outside Linebackers in Sims and Peterson), some positions were we are decent(Buchanon,Henry,Avril,White,Bullocks,Grady) and some positions where we stink or need a lot of help(Undertackle(unless Fluellen suprises),Middle Linebacker barring Larry Foote,run stopping D-End(barring Kevin Carter).

Detroit needs 1 or 2 more studs probably at Undertackle,Nose tackle for the future or Middle Linebacker to get out of the basement of Defensive rankings.

[StorminNorman]

We got a Nose Tackle for the future in SLH. We got a MLB for the future in Levy. I think having Grady Jackson will help our current Undertackles and I would be shocked if Foote was not on this roster soon.

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

At this point I'm not putting to much faith in Hill and Levy until proven otherwise. If Mayhew is a good drafter and Schwartz and co can develop them thats great but I'm not counting on them becoming more than role players.

[bearsfan_51]

I don't have any problem standing by the comments I make. I think that bashing someones pre-season thoughts, while still in the pre-season, only opens up the door for yourself to look rather foolish. The NFL is chaotic and unpredictable.
The Lions sucking has been pretty predictable for the last 50 years. You're not the first person to think they are going to turn it around.

[Gay Ork Wang]

is this TacticaLion?

[StorminNorman]

The Lions sucking has been pretty predictable for the last 50 years. You're not the first person to think they are going to turn it around.

You could make this same comment about the Cardinals the year before last.

Things in the NFL change. Fast. Tell the Dolphins, tell the Seahawks, tell the Falcons, tell the Browns.

[bearsfan_51]

is this TacticaLion?
I actually wondered that too. He's far more rational and reasoned than Tactica though, although he could be hiding it. The names are similar.

[bearsfan_51]

tell the Browns.
*Scratches head*

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

The Lions sucking has been pretty predictable for the last 50 years. You're not the first person to think they are going to turn it around.

It's not as predictable as you think. Lions have had decent teams in that 50 years. Especially the 90s where all it took was one superstar to make us a playoff team 6 out of 10 years. Super Bowl caliber teams no, but decent to good competitive teams in Detroit. And I think thats what we're talking about here with a turn around, not winning Super Bowls obviously.

20 seasons out of 50 of .500 or above for Detroit and 29 losing seasons and the 82 strike to make 50. 29 losing seasons and 20 decent to good seasons. And seeing how Millen has led us to 8 losing seasons in a row, it wasn't all that bad before Millen. It wasn't spectacular and Pittsburgh/Dallas esque obviously but it wasn't laughing stock, predictable losses. Millen took us from decent franchise into a laughing stock. And now he's gone so we begin the rebuilding. Anyone with a brain will be able to restore us to at least a decent franchise. Mayhew could just be a normal GM and we will be fine, not even a Pioli or Polian. It will probably take some time to get out of this mess, but we've started already with another good attempt at a franchise QB and some decent free agent moves and draft picks IMO. However, 2009 will still be bad but improvement is a start. A Dolphins turn around would take a miracle, however 5 to 6 wins is a good start.

Bears on the other hand had 25 above .500 seasons, some very good especially in the late 80s(the Bears hey day if you will) that were consistently Super Bowl caliber along with the early 60s with Halas and 2 very good seasons in the 2000s with some great defense and Grossman holding you back from glory. However, late 90s and early 2000s was for the most part terrible for Chicago(Millenesque other than the 2001 anomaly). Bears made a change for Angelo and things got better.

24 losing seasons in the last 50 years for Chicago with the 1 strike year in 1982. 24 losing seasons versus 20 losing seasons between Chicago and Detroit. Chicago has been the better franchise I'm not agruing that, I'm just saying the Lions always sucking is a ridiculous argument. Especially because Millen is gone and the 60s,70s,80s and 90s have nothing to do with the future of the Lions. Good luck this year, Bears have a good team and enjoy your hopefully last free two wins against the Lions in 09(although you did lose 6 times against Millen, gotta love those close division games)

[TitleTown088]

It's not as predictable as you think. Lions have had decent teams in that 50 years. Especially the 90s where all it took was one superstar to make us a playoff team 6 out of 10 years.

Is that why you always went for the superstar WR Matt?

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

Is that why you always went for the superstar WR Matt?

Everybody is going for a superstar with every firsr round draft pick. Millen just always missed on everything until he was handed Calvin by Oakland. Millen went for WR because he was stubborn and tried to force Joey to become a superstar. You can't force people to be awesome if they suck. Obviously you need solid players too around the superstar, but one superstar changes everything especially into at least a decent team with a stud QB or RB or really really studly defensive player for example Reggie White.

Heck losing Shaun Rogers took us from 7-9 to 0-16. Calvin got more beastly from 07 to 08, RB got better with Kevin Smith and actually running the ball,the rest of the Dline stayed the same maybe better with Avril better than Kalimba Edwards, Oline added Gosder, secondary actually got better with Bodden/Kelly over Bryant/Stanely Wilson but yet we don't win of game. One player can do alot.

[TitleTown088]

Heck losing Shaun Rogers took us from 7-9 to 0-16.

Wait, you insinuating thta Rogers alone was the reason for losing 7 games?

Detroit sucked all around, and it was because of many more reasons than just Rogers.

Wow. I just realized how bad my grammar was there. Sniper would **** a brick.

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

Wait, you insinuating thta Rogers alone was the reason for losing 7 games?

Detroit sucked all around, and it was because of many more reasons than just Rogers.

It was a huge huge reason. Rogers made that Dline much better allowing Redding,White and DeVries to overachieve in 2007 because the focus was on Rogers. Its pretty obvious and the key to the Tampa 2. Just look at the pressures/sacks from 2007 to 2008 with the same front 4 less Rogers plus Avril who showed flashes. Its like the Packes losing Kampman or the Bears losing Tommie Harris(which you saw 2007 Bears D play poorly with an injured Harris). Double teams went to Redding in 2008 because Darby as a nose was terrible. Plus a guard would be on Lenon instantly so its up to the safeties to tackle which Dwight Smith and Pearson in for injury couldn't do. So little runs, lead to big runs, lead to huge gashes and it all started with Rogers gone freeing up a guy on Lenon. Rush D was earth shattering bad in Detroit in 2008 instead of NFL quality in 2007 on top of playing good rushing teams in 2008. Enter better tacklers/block shedders in Foote,Peterson and Delmas plus Sims/Bullocks already with a very very large nose tackle that commands a double in Grady Jackson. It's a big start if you can't get the superstar right away.

Rogers/Dline play in 2007 made the worse talent wise secondary better in 2007, and the pressure forced turnovers with a terrible secondary in 2007. Bodden and Brian Kelly are better than Fernando Bryant and Stanley Wilson/Fisher as starters. Bullocks vs rookie Alexander in 2008 vs 2007, and Kennoy Kennedy and Dwight Smith are both terrible at safety in 2007 and 2008. Rogers aided Lenon and Sims as well to be decent and good players respectively. All the LBs take a step back without Rogers. So we add better LBs so the step back isn't from decent players with help into to a bad player with no help like with Lenon and Nece/Lewis and we add a better nose with size to limit the step back of the good LBs.

On defense, losing Rogers was the reason we stunk and we lost many many games because of defense mainly rush defense in our 7 blowout losses. Plus the coaching staff was stubborn and refused to blitz even when our front 4 couldn't do anything. One superstar in the right spot can make crappy players better. You need solid players with the superstar to be a really good defense and I think thats what Detroit did this offseason is adding many solid players while we still lack the superstar unless Peterson/Sims turn into one but its obviously better to have one on the Dline. Thus we'll be better but still struggle.

There are other reasons too for 0-16 on the offensive side of the ball but defense was all Rogers. Martz gone rendering Furrey/McDonald useless(enter Bryant Johnson,Curry and Derrick Williams,Pettigrew), Roy Williams playing terrible and then getting traded(leads to Pettigrew and Derrick Williams), putting the only experienced QB that knew the playbook on IR Week 4 to see what a very inexperienced not overly talented Orlovsky had and Daunte not knowing the playbook and being washed up/overweight(leads to Linehan with Daunte,Daunte losing weight and Stafford being the future superstar hopefully). Oline constantly shifting in new players with injury to Raiola, poor play at guard(enter Loper) and Gosder taking over Foster which is a good thing for the long run(2nd year experienced Gosder). Plus being down by 21 early did the Oline/poor Qbs no favors(back to defensive problems).

Lions still have some holes and young players to rely on, but we have a good start with many solid players and many talented young players. We won't be bad for long at this rate and already we're way more competitive. 5-6 wins max but blowouts should be limited to 1-2 from 7. If we get that I'll be happy, no more easy wins.

[TitleTown088]

Dude, the last time Detroit was good was on home improvement.

[Gay Ork Wang]

Dude, the last time Detroit was good was on home improvement.
haha that made me lol

[awfullyquiet]

Wait, you insinuating thta Rogers alone was the reason for losing 7 games?

Detroit sucked all around, and it was because of many more reasons than just Rogers.

I think part of it has to do with their offensive line was porous like a...

http://spidersecret.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/spongebobsmile.jpg

[TitleTown088]

haha that made me lol

How does a German know who Tim the Toolman Taylor is?

[StorminNorman]

I think part of it has to do with their offensive line was porous like a...

http://spidersecret.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/spongebobsmile.jpg

The porous offensive line has as much to do with QB play as OL play.

Good QB's avoid sacks. Bad QB's get sacked.

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

Home Improvement ended in 1999. 2000 we went 9-7 then we got Millen and had 8 years of losing. So the ties to Home Improvement are false. False I say. It all boils down to Millen. And now Millen is gone. The rebuilding has begun.

Offensive line had some very poor guard/center play(plus injuries to Raiola/Multialo which made it worse) and the right side struggled until Gosder got better and Foster was benched. Plus poor QB play, poor TE blocking, poor RB protection, very poor 2nd/3rd/4th WR play leading to coverage sacks. Plus the Oline was put in some very bad situation because of the defense. Put any Oline down 21-0 and I bet they give up a bunch of sacks with the defense pretty much knowing its a pass. Defense was historically bad last year. Adding 5 very solid free agent defenders, plus Delmas,(Levy/Sammie Lee Hill for the future) plus the development of some young Dline(Avril/Fluellen) on top of Sims/White/Bullocks should help the D and new coaching staff means the rebuilding has begun.

Oline we have a new LG in Loper(coming from a great Oline and good coaching), a healthy Raiola,Gosder from year 1 to year 2(usually a big progression) and Backus was not the problem last year if you watched all the Lions games, on top of a good blocking tight end with Pettigrew and Kevin Smith year 2/Maurice Morris(over Rudi Johnson) as better blocking 3rd down RBs. That sponge Oline in a better situation might not be so Squarepantsy and the Defense less historically awful.

[TitleTown088]

Home Improvement ended in 1999. 2000 we went 9-7 then we got Millen and had 8 years of losing. So the ties to Home Improvement are false.

Impeccable research! haha

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

Impeccable research! haha

I know nothing beats a google of Home Improvment. Ohhhh Ohhhh Urrghhhaa.

I also asked Wilson.

[Gay Ork Wang]

How does a German know who Tim the Toolman Taylor is?
It was on air in germany. Tim Allen on TOOL TIME!

The porous offensive line has as much to do with QB play as OL play.

Good QB's avoid sacks. Bad QB's get sacked.

obviously, but a good QB with a bad OL still sucks

[Maybe Next Year Millen2]

obviously, but a good QB with a bad OL still sucks

Depends how good the QB is and the offensvie scheme you run. Quicker throws leads to less sacks. Alot of things go into sacks. We had a ton of coverage sacks last year too with good initial protection. Four things play into coverage sacks. Receiver play other than Calvin was poor and Calvin is always doubled. Apparently not having Mike Martz makes Furrey/McDonald dog **** and then of course Roy playing terrible and then trading him for the future. Secondly, how well can the QB read the defense. Kitna has always been sketchy in that regard and very slow, Daunte had two playbooks on his arm and was the size of a cow and Dan O was a career backup with no experience who runs out of the back of the endzone for sacks when the tight end gets beat by Jared Allen. Third,sometimes its just great coverage called by the DC. Lastly, the score of the game dicates how the defense plays. When you're down 21-0, I think they know its going to be a pass. Also sometimes there is just more blitzers than blockers. Thats on the coaches. That happened a few times last year. Its up to the QB to check out of that play but Dan O couldn't do that well and Daunte surely couldn't do that.

For instance, we gave up 6 sacks to Jacksonville down over 20 points when we put Drew Stanton in the game. I could probably shave off 15 sacks or more when we're down by a bunch of points in obvious passing downs late in the games. People talk about garbage time passing stats, these are garbage time sacks if you will. Some sacks were on the tight ends(2 of 3 Jared Allen sacks), some sacks were on the running back missing a blitz pick up(one in Houston game with Rudi J for instance), some were on the QB holding onto the ball too long(2 Jon Abraham sacks,2 sacks against San Fran). Plus you got backups playing 3-4 games each in Damien Cook,Manny Ramirez,George Foster and Andy McCollum. Yes sometimes people get hurt, so you need depth which the Lions clearly don't have, but sometimes they don't get hurt like the Titans Oline for instance. Raiola playing with broken thumb for half the season, terrible blocking tight ends(which we've had the last 3 seasons).

I wouldn't put much of 0-16 on Jeff Backus and Gosder Cherilus. Backus has 100 starts for a reason. Gosder goes from rookie to year 2 when strides are usually made. Raiola had his worst year, I've seen him play much better when healthier. New Left Guard from Tennessee in Loper(Schwartz really likes him) and Peterman who I'm not too thrilled with him starting. Better blocking tight end and hopefully a better defense(at least non record breaking bad putting us down big early).