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View Full Version : How do the Chiefs pass on Raji?


BoltHype
04-21-2009, 02:17 AM
The way I see it, Scott Pioli follows the Patriots model and builds the team from the trenches on out. With Raji available @ #3, I don't see how the Chiefs pass up on a nose tackle as they switch to the 3-4.

Who's going to play the "zero" for them? Tank Tyler? Dorsey?

It all starts with the nose in a 3-4 and I think the Chiefs take the best D-lineman in the draft @ 3.

Right?

superman
04-21-2009, 02:23 AM
The way I see it, Scott Pioli follows the Patriots model and builds the team from the trenches on out. With Raji available @ #3, I don't see how the Chiefs pass up on a nose tackle as they switch to the 3-4.

Who's going to play the "zero" for them? Tank Tyler? Dorsey?

It all starts with the nose in a 3-4 and I think the Chiefs take the best D-lineman in the draft @ 3.

Right?
they should trade down and take him or jackson

i think raji/dorsey could be as good of a combo as wilfork/seymour

MenOfTroy
04-21-2009, 02:23 AM
Very possible. Ultimately I see KC finding some way to trade down, and then taking Tyson Jackson. Obviously now that Raji didn't fail any test, there's no reason why he can't go really early.

Wonder what's going to happen to Glenn Dorsey with this transition to the 3-4...

superman
04-21-2009, 02:24 AM
Very possible. Ultimately I see KC finding some way to trade down, and then taking Tyson Jackson. Obviously now that Raji didn't fail any test, there's no reason why he can't go really early.

Wonder what's going to happen to Glenn Dorsey with this transition to the 3-4...

de for sure

that was being talked about before he was even drafted last yr, had he gone to a 3-4 team

MenOfTroy
04-21-2009, 02:25 AM
they should trade down and take him or jackson

i think raji/dorsey could be as good of a combo as wilfork/seymour

Seymour is 6'6, Dorsey is only 6'1. Can Dorsey really play DE at that height?

hagy34
04-21-2009, 02:25 AM
By selecting someone else? :eek:

Brothgar
04-21-2009, 02:33 AM
The way I see it, Scott Pioli follows the Patriots model and builds the team from the trenches on out. With Raji available @ #3, I don't see how the Chiefs pass up on a nose tackle as they switch to the 3-4.

Who's going to play the "zero" for them? Tank Tyler? Dorsey?

It all starts with the nose in a 3-4 and I think the Chiefs take the best D-lineman in the draft @ 3.

Right?

I really think that Raji is a special player. The fact they don't have a 2nd rounder I think it is a distinct possibility that Raji goes at three and really the Cheifs are the Lions of the AFC. Except they have a QB now. And they run the 3-4. So really they could go ANYWHERE and I mean it.

superman
04-21-2009, 02:46 AM
Seymour is 6'6, Dorsey is only 6'1. Can Dorsey really play DE at that height?

yeah, prob will make him better at everything except batting down passes

broadstbullies
04-21-2009, 03:50 AM
when you take Glenn Dorsey last year you pretty much have to. I'd go Monroe like Scott and build that offensive line to be good for a long time for Matt Cassel

Shane P. Hallam
04-21-2009, 04:24 AM
I think it is all about bigger holes elsewhere for them. With the 4-3 Under defense they are running this year, Tank Tyler will be alright in that NT spot, and Dorsey can excel at the UT spot. That being said, they lack the two DE spots. In the 4-3 Under you need two very different DEs, one with bulk who does not need to rush the passer but needs to be an elite run stuffer, and one where size doesn't matter but needs to be a superior athlete. They also could slide Curry into almost any of the LB spots in the defense if they decide to go that way. This is why I think they are looking at Tyson Jackson, as he fits very well.

T-RICH49
04-21-2009, 04:39 AM
no ot, no DT.Aaron Curry.that is my man crush and I will scream till my face is blue

nepg
04-21-2009, 08:32 AM
I think it is all about bigger holes elsewhere for them. With the 4-3 Under defense they are running this year, Tank Tyler will be alright in that NT spot, and Dorsey can excel at the UT spot. That being said, they lack the two DE spots. In the 4-3 Under you need two very different DEs, one with bulk who does not need to rush the passer but needs to be an elite run stuffer, and one where size doesn't matter but needs to be a superior athlete. They also could slide Curry into almost any of the LB spots in the defense if they decide to go that way. This is why I think they are looking at Tyson Jackson, as he fits very well.
I really like Tank (NT) & Turk (run stuffing DE). They do need to add a few pass rushers though. Lucky for them, this draft is deep as far as hybrid pass rushers go.

I really think there's almost no way the Chiefs don't trade out of that pick. Some team is going to want a player that's available at #3. Whether it's Curry, Raji, an OT, Stafford, Sanchez, or Crabtree...
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bored of education
04-21-2009, 08:33 AM
Why don't the Chiefs just draft Jackson, Raji and Curry and tell the rest of the NFL to **** off?

T-RICH49
04-21-2009, 08:35 AM
Why don't the Chiefs just draft Jackson, Raji and Curry and tell the rest of the NFL to **** off?


make it so

killxswitch
04-21-2009, 09:01 AM
Why don't the Chiefs just draft Jackson, Raji and Curry and tell the rest of the NFL to **** off?

It's ridiculous they haven't done this yet. What is Pioli actually doing, anything?

eazyb81
04-21-2009, 09:18 AM
It's very possible they do draft Raji, if not likely.

Raji or Jackson have to be considered the two top candidates, but Crabtree could be a darkhorse.

the decider13
04-21-2009, 10:09 AM
no ot, no DT.Aaron Curry.that is my man crush and I will scream till my face is blue

You are gonna have to let go of your man crush a little bit. You are just going to make Saturday more painful for yourself.

vidae
04-21-2009, 11:01 AM
Tank can play the NT and Dorsey can play the UT in the 4-3 under just fine. Turk is a good run stuffing DE but offers almost nothing in the way of a pass rush. Taking either Jackson or Raji at 3 would be a gigantic mistake. Drafting solely on need (while not factoring bpa) is why we're in the situation. Tamba Hali anyone?

The pick needs to be the absolute best player on the board when we pick and I don't think either fit.

FrankGore
04-21-2009, 11:09 AM
I don't think the Pendergast defense is what it's being made out to be. If that guy runs a 2-gap traditional 3-4, well, that's news to me. Not what I saw when we played them 2 times a year, that's for sure.

I don't think Raji is far and away better than the other guys in the mix for that pick anyways. If forced to make a selection, I like them picking the best tackle on the board. NOTHING is going to be an ideal fit for KC at #3. They're going to have to come to grips with that unless they can trade down. They need to take the next best thing for their team and I feel like creating a rock-solid offensive line would be a great first step for Pioli and co. There are plenty of hybrid pass rushers available later, and they do have a few pieces along the DL for the system that Pendergast is going to run.

Black Bolt
04-21-2009, 11:09 AM
they should trade down and take him or jackson

i think raji/dorsey could be as good of a combo as wilfork/seymour

Seymore is a very strong, very long player that is the prototype for a 5 technique. Dorsey is a 6'1" little undertackle that couldn't hold Seymour's jock strap and would get eat alive as a 5 technique.

BoltHype
04-21-2009, 11:32 AM
I don't think the Pendergast defense is what it's being made out to be. If that guy runs a 2-gap traditional 3-4, well, that's news to me. Not what I saw when we played them 2 times a year, that's for sure.

I don't think Raji is far and away better than the other guys in the mix for that pick anyways. If forced to make a selection, I like them picking the best tackle on the board. NOTHING is going to be an ideal fit for KC at #3. They're going to have to come to grips with that unless they can trade down. They need to take the next best thing for their team and I feel like creating a rock-solid offensive line would be a great first step for Pioli and co. There are plenty of hybrid pass rushers available later, and they do have a few pieces along the DL for the system that Pendergast is going to run.

taking BPA makes sense to a degree, but you have to get guys who fit your system and the things you will be doing defensively, otherwise you'll be running a 3-4 defense with Tamba Hali and Glen Dorsey on your team. Oh wait...

BlueGoldGreen
04-21-2009, 11:38 AM
Someone is gonna trade up in front of Seattle for Sanchez.

vidae
04-21-2009, 11:51 AM
taking BPA makes sense to a degree, but you have to get guys who fit your system and the things you will be doing defensively, otherwise you'll be running a 3-4 defense with Tamba Hali and Glen Dorsey on your team. Oh wait...

This comment made me lol. You know Hali and Dorsey were drafted when we were running the 4-3, right? Oh wait...

T-RICH49
04-21-2009, 11:57 AM
taking BPA makes sense to a degree, but you have to get guys who fit your system and the things you will be doing defensively, otherwise you'll be running a 3-4 defense with Tamba Hali and Glen Dorsey on your team. Oh wait...

I was watching the news the other night and in one of Haley's pressers he mentioned that while you'd like to get a guy who schematically fits but if there's a player who is such a good player that reguardless of scheme you'd have to take him

Crickett
04-21-2009, 12:02 PM
10 sacks.

Nobody thinks they need to improve on that? With some kind of pass rusher?

FrankGore
04-21-2009, 12:07 PM
taking BPA makes sense to a degree, but you have to get guys who fit your system and the things you will be doing defensively, otherwise you'll be running a 3-4 defense with Tamba Hali and Glen Dorsey on your team. Oh wait...

My point was Pendergast is not going to force-fit some sort of fulltime 3-4 defense right now if they don't have the pieces for that. He's a smart DC. The scheme in Arizona was very much a hybrid and guys like Darnell Dockett and Antonio Smith (who are similar to Dorsey and Hali) thrived under him.

From what I read, they were in a 4-3 under look the entire time at this past minicamp...and with a couple more additions, they could be a nice hybrid D sorta like Arizona. I don't think that translates into not being able to pass on BJ Raji. I like him, but I like either of the top 2 tackles better because a) it gives them an identity right away on offense and b) it protects your biggest investment and gives him a chance to thrive.

BoltHype
04-21-2009, 12:30 PM
This comment made me lol. You know Hali and Dorsey were drafted when we were running the 4-3, right? Oh wait...

Obviously I know that, my team plays the Chiefs twice a year. My point is that you'd better start drafting for your scheme instead of trying to force players into positions they aren't suited for.

bigbluedefense
04-21-2009, 12:51 PM
ive thought about this myself. it wouldn't surprise me at all to see them land Raji.


the need is obviously there, dominant NTs in a 3-4 don't come along every year, and they already have linebackers.


if i were Pioli, id take him. or Eugene Monroe. i wouldn't take Curry #3 overall.

TonyGfortheTD
04-21-2009, 01:08 PM
10 sacks.

Nobody thinks they need to improve on that? With some kind of pass rusher?

No, we all get it. There just isn't a good selection of pass-rushers to choose from at the top.

ChiefMojo
04-21-2009, 04:48 PM
Seems Tank Tyler is the starting NT right now and I think he will be more than suitable at that position. You could always see KC draft someone like Roy Miller or that big kid out of Hampton in the mid-rounds.

Dorsey is being looked at as a 3-Tech DT. Even in the 3-4, he is likely to play off the C. Might be a little odd, but that is the way it seems the Chiefs are going to use him.

At this moment KC does not have a 5-Tech DE on roster. That is why someone like Tyson Jackson could be very viable. Also KC could take Everette Brown and REALLY improve the pass rush. Sure Vrabel is at that spot now, but he is only a stop gap player.

There is ONE guy that can really help the pass rush up top and that is Everette Brown.

FrankGore
04-21-2009, 04:55 PM
Everette Brown would be much more of a reach than Tyson Jackson...

Babylon
04-21-2009, 05:01 PM
Everette Brown would be much more of a reach than Tyson Jackson...

I'm not doing flips over either of those two but i think Brown would fit what they're doing there better. Not at #3 though that's for sure.

kmartin575
04-21-2009, 05:42 PM
when you take Glenn Dorsey last year you pretty much have to. I'd go Monroe like Scott and build that offensive line to be good for a long time for Matt Cassel

But Branden Albert was already pretty damn awesome at left tackle as rookie, especially considering he only played at LT for 2 games in college and he missed a good chunk of minicamps, training camp, and preseason with various injuries. So by drafting Monroe does he go to left tackle? We already have a very promising player there like I just mentioned, that really isn't very good value drafting another one. And IMO you do not draft right tackles in the top 5.

I certainly wouldn't want to be Pioli in this draft. I simply do not see any good value at the #3 pick for this team.

BoltHype
04-21-2009, 06:44 PM
If you're KC, you can find your 5-tech later. A nose tackle like Raji is a rare commodity and it would fit the Patriots blueprint. Without a nose, you don't have a 3-4...

Kid_Ego
04-21-2009, 07:10 PM
Yeah but Pioli also has a very expensive runningback who needs a hutchinson/walter jones type Oline to be productive and a young qb. which makes Monroe/ Smith make that much more sense

singe_101
04-21-2009, 08:08 PM
Wow I thought Curry was the best defensive player and they're gonna pass on him?

eazyb81
04-21-2009, 09:57 PM
If you're KC, you can find your 5-tech later. A nose tackle like Raji is a rare commodity and it would fit the Patriots blueprint. Without a nose, you don't have a 3-4...

Um, the Pats drafted their DEs (Seymour and Warren) earlier than their NT (Wilfork). Pats have shown that they will spend top picks on 3-4 DEs.

PossibleCabbage
04-21-2009, 10:16 PM
I'm honestly not sold as Raji as an NT in the 3-4. He's certainly got the frame for it, but he almost never played in the A-gap at BC; Brace was the guy who lined up against the natural leverage of Cs. Raji almost never 2-gapped in college from what I can tell, his best attributes seemed to be his ability to get push, shoot gaps, and rush the passer. These things have a lot more value as a UT than as an NT, since most NTs come off the field in passing situations to keep them fresh.

Raji's just not good enough against the run to really inspire confidence immediately as the 0-tech. He gets beat one-on-one a little too often for comfort. When it comes down to it, you really want your NT to be more "solid and reliable" than "occasionally gets beat, but occasionally makes plays." You can find the guys to make plays at other positions, you just want your NT to be somebody who never gets beat.

If Kansas City is really sold on some sort of hybrid 3-4/4-3 I really wouldn't take Raji. He's sort of a project at NT; he has the physical ability to do it, but he's not had to do it very much and hasn't looked great when he had to do it. If it turns out he can't play NT, it would be a wasted pick for KC since his best attribute as a DT is also Dorsey's best attribute as a DT, and Dorsey is a better player.

Obviously scouts may have different opinions. I'm just not convinced that Raji is anything more than a project at NT. Brace can step in and play NT immediately for a team that needs one (as he played much, much closer to the A-gap in college, and faced more double teams), but he's a bit of a slug and I doubt he'll ever be anything more than mediocre.

FrankGore
04-21-2009, 10:26 PM
It depends on the type of 3-4 a team is running. For instance, the Wade Phillips 3-4 often asks the DL to shoot one gap. See Jay Ratliff and what he's been able to do at the NT position for the Cowboys. The 49ers run the same defense and once Nolan got fired last year, Aubrayo Franklin was seen shooting gaps and penetrating the backfield pretty often. Raji would definitely dominate in that kind of system IMO.

I think asking Raji to sit and two-gap is probably taking away from his greatest strength and exposing the weaknesses he might have, so I agree in some sense.

PossibleCabbage
04-21-2009, 10:31 PM
Ideally, you want your DL to be able to both 1-gap and 2-gap in the 3-4. You may run a system that primarily has 1-gap responsibilities or primarily 2-gap responsibilities, but the primary strength of the 3-4 defense is in its unpredictability. I would say that at a bare minimum, a NT ought to be able to 2-gap adequately at least a little bit. It might not be your base defense, but it's an important, useful wrinkle.

It's actually a fairly common defensive call in a lot of 3-4 sets to give the ends 1-gap responsibilities and the NT 2-gaps to handle.

But yeah, there is a lot of value in having a NT who can shoot gaps, but I don't think it's as important as an NT who can 2-gap at least adequately. I'm not totally convinced that Raji can do it at an NFL level. And really, the more concerning thing about Raji is less that "he can't play 2-gaps" since he might not be asked to do that, but because he gets beat one on one by some of the better Centers and he's not good against a double team, which are things that he will have to deal with as an NT in the NFL.

I love him as a full-time UT who just shoots gaps though, but I love Dorsey as that guy even more.