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Nj.
04-26-2009, 01:44 PM
If you think about it, this trade has basically been us giving up:

2nd Round Pick
4th Round Pick
7th Round Pick
Abram Elam
Brett Ratliff

To Get:
Mark Sanchez
Shonn Greene




If we stayed where we were in each round we could have drafted:
Round 1: Jeremy Maclin
Round 2: LeSean McCoy
Round 3: Jared Cook
Round 4: Louis Murphy
Round 6 and 7: We could have looked for a defensive pass rusher

I would take that group up there combined over Sanchez and Greene

thetedginnshow
04-26-2009, 01:55 PM
I wouldn't even be kind of happy with the draft you just mentioned.

Nj.
04-26-2009, 02:00 PM
That kind of draft would have addressed our offensive needs with 2 dynamic receivers, a good running back and a good Tight End.

Our real draft only addressed a good QB and good RB

Crickett
04-26-2009, 02:00 PM
If you think about it, this trade has basically been us giving up:

2nd Round Pick
4th Round Pick
7th Round Pick
Abram Elam
Brett Ratliff

To Get:
Mark Sanchez
Shonn Greene




If we stayed where we were in each round we could have drafted:
Round 1: Jeremy Maclin
Round 2: LeSean McCoy
Round 3: Jared Cook
Round 4: Louis Murphy
Round 6 and 7: We could have looked for a defensive pass rusher

I would take that group up there combined over Sanchez and Greene

I wouldn't even be kind of happy with the draft you just mentioned.

I don't think I would have been happy with McCoy, Cook, or Murphy given the Jets drafting Maclin.

As much as I would have prefered a WR, or seeing if Greene would fall to the Jets at 76, he's a better fit than McCoy.

Greene complements Leon. McCoy supplants him. The same is true with Cook and Keller.

derza222
04-26-2009, 02:31 PM
I don't think I would have been happy with McCoy, Cook, or Murphy given the Jets drafting Maclin.

As much as I would have prefered a WR, or seeing if Greene would fall to the Jets at 76, he's a better fit than McCoy.

Greene complements Leon. McCoy supplants him. The same is true with Cook and Keller.

Perfectly said. A preferable draft, IMO, in that scenario would have been:

Maclin
Greene
Louis Vasquez
Sammie Lee/Anthony Hill, take your pick there

Really just presume you gave up those 3 backups and anybody you would have taken in round 1, 3, or 4 (and then 7), for Sanchez. Based on how high he must have been on our board, we probably would have taken Greene at 52 anyway so that's more or less a watch. So we basically gave up our third, fourth, seventh and those three guys to move up from 17 to 5 for the chance to draft a franchise QB. And time will tell if it was worth it, because if Sanchez ends our QB issues it certainly will have been. It's a lot in number, but not a ton of value to move up that far.

TT Gator
04-26-2009, 03:24 PM
It's really ridiculious. I mean you'd think as much as they must like Sanchez to give an arm and a leg to a team who wanted to fall as far as they could since they were drafting a center (Browns) would have some sense to realize we have no one what so ever outside of Cotchery at WR. I don't personally like Freeman but we could have got him at 17 and got the receiver from Georgia(know his name but not going to try to spell it) Yeah passing up on Ramses Barden, Louis Murphy, and Juaquin Iglesias for a Shonn Greene when we desperately need WRs was real smart guys. Bout as smart as trading a 3rd rounder, a 4th, and a 7th round pick to move up 10 spots in the 3rd round....oh wait the Jets did that too. I don't know who was ahead of this draft but they blew it big and when Mr. "One year wonder" busts next year everyone can thank him for passing up on a WR. I don't know how long they think they can keep their passing game going with everyone at receiver a 5th to 7th round draft pick. Once again the Jets make dumb picks and if Sanchez busts they won't have Ratliff or Clemens next time. I hope Clemens demands a trade this is the 3rd time with the 3rd QB that NY has **** blocked him and its b/s. It's going to be a lot different in the pros without receivers than at USC where he had the best at every position and played only 3-4 tough games.

BroadwayJoe10
04-26-2009, 07:26 PM
It's really ridiculious. I mean you'd think as much as they must like Sanchez to give an arm and a leg to a team who wanted to fall as far as they could since they were drafting a center (Browns) would have some sense to realize we have no one what so ever outside of Cotchery at WR. I don't personally like Freeman but we could have got him at 17 and got the receiver from Georgia(know his name but not going to try to spell it) Yeah passing up on Ramses Barden, Louis Murphy, and Juaquin Iglesias for a Shonn Greene when we desperately need WRs was real smart guys. Bout as smart as trading a 3rd rounder, a 4th, and a 7th round pick to move up 10 spots in the 3rd round....oh wait the Jets did that too. I don't know who was ahead of this draft but they blew it big and when Mr. "One year wonder" busts next year everyone can thank him for passing up on a WR. I don't know how long they think they can keep their passing game going with everyone at receiver a 5th to 7th round draft pick. Once again the Jets make dumb picks and if Sanchez busts they won't have Ratliff or Clemens next time. I hope Clemens demands a trade this is the 3rd time with the 3rd QB that NY has **** blocked him and its b/s. It's going to be a lot different in the pros without receivers than at USC where he had the best at every position and played only 3-4 tough games.

Do you watch Big 10 football??? Did you see Green roll over Penn state, Wisconsin and have 100+ yards against all the big 10 defenses this year?? I'm going to assume no, becuase if you did you would realize he's more than a one year wonder.

Secondly, there is a reason that Tanny, Rex, Clinksales and company traded up and got him. Green was the #1 player left on the board for us by far, according to Rex on espn this morning.

How can you advocate for a player when you don't even know his name?? That seems a tad odd no?? You're getting mad that we drafted a player that you don't know about, instead of another player you don't know about?? You would have to imagine the guys who get paid to analyze players have done their do-diligence.

We've traded up 3 times so far with Tanny drafting and they all have panned out quite well so far; Revis, Harris and Keller.


Just as you hate on Green and possibly sanchez, what makes you so certain Barden, Louis Murphy, and Juaquin Iglesias would have done anything either??

thetedginnshow
04-26-2009, 07:46 PM
I can't believe you actually read that.

timewaster
04-26-2009, 11:55 PM
It's really ridiculious. I mean you'd think as much as they must like Sanchez to give an arm and a leg to a team who wanted to fall as far as they could since they were drafting a center (Browns) would have some sense to realize we have no one what so ever outside of Cotchery at WR.


Who was Flacco throwing too last season? Anyone better than Cotchery?
Who was Chad throwing to while his team (ugh) won a division (ugh).
Was Eli throwing to number one receivers all season?

This system seems to work:

3 serviceable running backs = Check
A good o-line = Check
A good defense = Check?

We were told the Jets will be a run first team anyway.

gpngc
04-26-2009, 11:57 PM
The OP's draft doesn't have Mark Sanchez.

jmess15
04-28-2009, 07:24 AM
That kind of draft would have addressed our offensive needs with 2 dynamic receivers, a good running back and a good Tight End.

Our real draft only addressed a good QB and good RB

I have an issue calling a 4th round WR "dynamic". I like him and he has potential but lets not call him dynamic yet. If Sanchez becomes a franchise QB then it was worth it, if not then we blew it. This could either make us a perennial playoff team and Super Bowl contender or could set us back 5 years and get Mr. T fired. Only time will tell.

josh07039
04-28-2009, 09:55 AM
I was happy with the first trade however, the second one really disappointed me. I really wanted to see more picks from the Jets on day 2. But beyond my selfish reasons, I think that Green is a good running back, but not sure if hes worth giving up all the picks that we did. Even though there are examples of guys that have done well without great receivers, clearly it is preferable for a qb to have more weapons.

I'm not too worried about the argument that we will not have depth because we keep giving up draft picks. I think that if you scout well, it doesn't matter whether someone is a day 2 pick or undrafted, you will find talent.

derza222
04-28-2009, 11:55 AM
I was happy with the first trade however, the second one really disappointed me. I really wanted to see more picks from the Jets on day 2. But beyond my selfish reasons, I think that Green is a good running back, but not sure if hes worth giving up all the picks that we did. Even though there are examples of guys that have done well without great receivers, clearly it is preferable for a qb to have more weapons.

I'm not too worried about the argument that we will not have depth because we keep giving up draft picks. I think that if you scout well, it doesn't matter whether someone is a day 2 pick or undrafted, you will find talent.

Agreed. I think you could look at some of the guys that we signed as UDFA's and view them as draft picks. We tend to reach for guys on day two anyway. Potter, Cook, Southerland, Link, Myers, and Westerman were all easily draftable prospects, and we could use help at basically all of those positions except probably where Westerman is going to play. Davie and Conley can also make marks on this team as a blocking tight end and a punter respectively.

We've got a lot of good rookies coming in, they just weren't all guys that we drafted. If these guys show some things and make an impact on this team, it really takes away the sting of having so few picks.

I would not have been shocked to see us draft a guy like Potter in round 4 or 6 if we had picks there. Southerland could have been somebody we looked at in round 6 or 7, we draft tackles like Link late all the time, and we draft players that only project to one or two things like Davie late as well. Remember Jason Pociask in round 5? After trading Elam, Cook could have gotten a look in round 6 or 7, and same with Westerman if we really like him.

Each of these guys has a chance to make the team, and they don't have the pressure of being draft picks. They'll all be fan favorites in training camp and during the season if they make the team. I know I'll be rooting for each and every one of our undrafted free agents, and there are enough open roster spots that these guys can make the same noise that a guy drafted in the late rounds would. It would also be pretty sweet if Conley ends up being our starting punter, or Bullock ends up being a surprise as a tight end.

josh07039
04-28-2009, 12:56 PM
At the very least, we have picked up some good athletes who can help out on special teams. I will say I agree with you on Westerman not really filling a need. However, Im going to go one step further. Not only do I think his position is not needed, I don't really understand where he fits in the defense at all. He's not an overly athletic guy that can become a linebacker and doesn't have the size to be a DE. I like the guy a lot and he probably would have been drafted if not for the injury, but he doesn't seem like he makes sense in a 3-4.

More generally, I'm just wondering if this strategy may prove to be effective to an extent that other teams will adopt it. Over the years, team have followed the Patriots way of trading down and picking up more late round picks to get steals/depth. Perhaps team will be aggressive and trade up for guys they want and have smaller draft classes because they recognize that they can pick up guys they want after the draft.

derza222
04-28-2009, 01:02 PM
At the very least, we have picked up some good athletes who can help out on special teams. I will say I agree with you on Westerman not really filling a need. However, Im going to go one step further. Not only do I think his position is not needed, I don't really understand where he fits in the defense at all. He's not an overly athletic guy that can become a linebacker and doesn't have the size to be a DE. I like the guy a lot and he probably would have been drafted if not for the injury, but he doesn't seem like he makes sense in a 3-4.

More generally, I'm just wondering if this strategy may prove to be effective to an extent that other teams will adopt it. Over the years, team have followed the Patriots way of trading down and picking up more late round picks to get steals/depth. Perhaps team will be aggressive and trade up for guys they want and have smaller draft classes because they recognize that they can pick up guys they want after the draft.

We'll see if other teams adopt the strategy. More or less, this strategy will either make Tannenbaum a genius and other teams will copycat the strategy, or it will be the strategy that gets him fired. I do think the success of the UDFA's that we bring in will be a major factor in the success of giving up our picks to get a few guys. The success of the players that we give up so much to go get will also be a very big factor as well. That we're willing to give up so much to go get certain players shows a lot of confidence in pre-draft evaluations and how good a job the scouting department is doing.

I think another aspect of the strategy is signing lower level players to fill roles that a younger guy would generally fill. Most teams use free agency and trades to get established NFL players and then develop younger players behind them that they use later round picks to acquire. It seems like the strategy of this team is to target a few players in the draft, and go get them: Revis, Keller, Harris, Sanchez, Greene, etc. Have them be studs, and take the place of a few free agents that you might acquire. Then fill out the roster with guys like Howard Green, Donald Strickland, and Marques Douglas. That allows the backups to be more experienced. But finding the right backups, picking up the right guys after the draft, and obviously choosing the right guys to go and get, are all very key for this strategy to work. And we'll see if it does.

Crickett
04-28-2009, 01:02 PM
I'm not too worried about the argument that we will not have depth because we keep giving up draft picks. I think that if you scout well, it doesn't matter whether someone is a day 2 pick or undrafted, you will find talent.

I will disagree to this extent. In a lot of cases, there just isn't that NFL caliber talent in the UDFA crop. Even when teams find a gem, they find at most 1. Pittsburgh found Willie Parker in 2003 as a UDFA, but thats all they found. When Dallas got Tony Romo as a UDFA, but who else did they get as UDFA's that year? If the Jets are relying on a UDFA class like that, they're in a lot of trouble.

derza222
04-28-2009, 01:08 PM
I will disagree to this extent. In a lot of cases, there just isn't that NFL caliber talent in the UDFA crop. Even when teams find a gem, they find at most 1. Pittsburgh found Willie Parker in 2003 as a UDFA, but thats all they found. When Dallas got Tony Romo as a UDFA, but who else did they get as UDFA's that year? If the Jets are relying on a UDFA class like that, they're in a lot of trouble.

I still think we're going to be finding low-priced veterans to fill the role on the team that 5th, 6th, 7th round guys would have. They're proven, and you end up cutting half of the later round guys anyway. Point taken though, it's absolutely tough to rely on a UDFA class even if you probably would have drafted some of those guys if you had the picks.

At this point there's really nothing left to do than to see if this strategy works, but I absolutely agree that depth is an issue right now. The one thing I do think, though, is that there are other ways to find depth than late-round picks. And those guys generally end up being more proven players. I think, provided our rookies don't cost too much, we're going to be raiding the waiver wire throughout the rest of the offseason to help the depth. Rotoworld said the Giants are going to be cutting some early 30's backup swing G/C guy soon, wouldn't be shocked if we start giving guys like that looks.

The one other thing this method does help is to prevent reaches. I'd bet that given we had over three full rounds between our second and third picks, we had Slauson rated higher than a sixth rounder. We may have considered him in the fourth, fifth round. So it does end up pushing things back.

josh07039
04-28-2009, 02:02 PM
I will disagree to this extent. In a lot of cases, there just isn't that NFL caliber talent in the UDFA crop. Even when teams find a gem, they find at most 1. Pittsburgh found Willie Parker in 2003 as a UDFA, but thats all they found. When Dallas got Tony Romo as a UDFA, but who else did they get as UDFA's that year? If the Jets are relying on a UDFA class like that, they're in a lot of trouble.
I don't have any statistics, but 5th-7th rounders don't often pan out, and even when they do it is often as backups/special teams guys. My point was that the talent pool in the late rounds isn't so much better than the pool of undrafted guys many years. There are always a ton of guys that inexplicably fall out of the draft altogether.

Crickett
04-28-2009, 02:20 PM
There are always a ton of guys that inexplicably fall out of the draft altogether.

There are, but very few of them amount to anything in the NFL. And I don't know of any team that has gotten more than 1 good player out of any single UDFA class.

It was not that long ago that I wanted the Jets to get Ernest Shazor, James Butler, Michael Munoz, Jason White, Justin Jenkins, James Newson and a whole host of others. But only two of them are in the NFL, one has actually done anything (Butler) and he wasn't mediocre at best.

josh07039
04-28-2009, 02:35 PM
Chansi Stuckey,Harry Williams, Titus Adams, Rashad Washington, Dave Yovanovitis, Matt Walters, Jacob Bender,Jason Posciak, Drew Coleman, Joel Dressen, (went to copy paste at this point)Cavka, Marko. McClover, Darrell ,Johnson, Trevor ,Ward, Derrick, Pagel, Derek ,Walters, Matt Bollinger, Brooks. In that list Stuckey has a shot, Ward is good with another team, Drew Coleman is decent, and Brooks Bollinger is the best qb of all time but not given a chance. 6th and 7th round picks don't work out on ant consistent basis as Im sure you know. Im just saying that listing players that didn't work out and saying only 1 udfa works out a year is a bit ridiculous.
Most undrafted guys don't get a shot because teams have drafted guys that they look at for their limited roster spots first. I think it is conceivable that with more roster spots and more opportunity, we can find more undrafted steals than is typical.

Crickett
04-28-2009, 02:41 PM
Most undrafted guys don't get a shot because teams have drafted guys that they look at for their limited roster spots first. I think it is conceivable that with more roster spots and more opportunity, we can find more undrafted steals than is typical.

There's no reason for me to think that UDFA's get any less of a shot than players drafted rounds 5-7, but succeed on the NFL much less frequently.

As far as the typical number of undrafted steals, the typical range is 0-1.

derza222
04-28-2009, 02:42 PM
Damn, I remember liking a lot of those 6th and 7th round guys a lot. Harry Williams in particular. And Jason Pociask was actually a 5th, picks like that make me alright with signing Andrew Davie as a UDFA.

I will agree that the 6th and 7th round picks of the world aren't going to do you much more good than UDFA's. But generally we're dealing the round 3-5 picks with a lot of frequency as well. Now you can miss on those, but you can hit on them as well and we have done that in the past quite often. It's nice that we're hitting more consistently in the second round, or getting good players in the late first via trade up.

But those are the guys I think we really miss being able to draft. We've selected 3 in the past two drafts where we should have selected 6: Greene, Lowery, and Ainge. Puts a lot of pressure on us to make sure all of those guys hit, and it hasn't been happening. I guess less early-round busts recently has been nice, but these guys help too.

I see little to no difference between a 6th or 7th rounder and a UDFA. Those guys should have an equal shot of making the team. But the 3rd, 4th, 5th rounders almost always make the team and play a role in some capacity.

thetedginnshow
04-28-2009, 04:16 PM
I think after the 4th it doesn't matter a ton, but it's going to be a problem if we only take two guys on the first day (the old first day) every year, even if they both pan out. What we need to do is lay off FA a little bit for once.

The Great Jonathan Vilma
04-28-2009, 04:27 PM
I disagree. I'll agree with the 2nd day trade, as it seems we gave up a fair bit in a relative type way. However, if he works out then i'm all for it. The Sanchez trade was worth it, no question in my mind. Boom or bust. You need to try to get a franchise QB. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. My only regret is last year having Favre instead of having Kellen get a shot. Justin Mac may have hurt his chances with the Jets to a degree of no repair.

Hurricanes25
04-28-2009, 06:08 PM
I disagree. I'll agree with the 2nd day trade, as it seems we gave up a fair bit in a relative type way. However, if he works out then i'm all for it. The Sanchez trade was worth it, no question in my mind. Boom or bust. You need to try to get a franchise QB. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. My only regret is last year having Favre instead of having Kellen get a shot. Justin Mac may have hurt his chances with the Jets to a degree of no repair.

I agree with you about last year with the whole Favre situation. I told all of my friends who are Jets fans last year that Favre will put us in a bad situation this year. I said that Favre will retire, which he did. Then we wont, know what we have in Clemens, which is true. I thought Clemens looked good 2 years ago but Macariens pretty much screwd him.

Now if Sanchez lives up to the hype, then that goes out the window. But if Sanchez busts and Clemens goes somewhere else and turns out good, then the Jets have to second guess themselves. Just my opinion but sounds pretty logical.

starwitness
04-29-2009, 11:51 AM
Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.

Crickett
04-29-2009, 12:09 PM
Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

The Jets OL is average? The Jets are "OK" at running back? Yeah, you seem to need one of these.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Clue_Poster.jpg

There you go.




Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

Upgrades all over the defense and coaching staff and the Jets are looking at 1-4 at best? Time to wake up from your dream world and re-enter reality.


The worst part of the trade was the players given up.

Yes troll, that was the worst part of the trade. Giving up the two worst already replaced starters on the defense, and a backup quarterback. Riiiiiiiiiiight. It wasn't giving up all of the picks that was the bad part, it was giving up the scrubs. But you are a Dolphins fan, so you should be familar with scrubs given that your starting quarterback has the weakest arm in NFL history.

Go back to the dolphins forum and swoon over Pat White, your third second round backup QB in three years.

derza222
04-29-2009, 12:51 PM
Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd147/meanamoeba/turrable.jpg

Yeah taking Sanchez was a risk, but EVERYONE knows it and we really didn't give up a whole lot to do it. A second that was in no mans land for what we and three backups? It's worth the shot at this point, we obviously were not comfortable with the situation. Your post was really an unnecessary trolling post that was almost entirely your own personal opinion, I'm really not sure why you posted anything at all other than to be an ass.

Also, Ryan apparently told Tannenbaum at Sanchez's workout that he was their guy, so he was not thrust on him.

Hurricanes25
04-29-2009, 04:43 PM
Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.

http://files.sharenator.com/2043_fail_camera-s500x420-10287-580.jpg

thetedginnshow
04-29-2009, 05:56 PM
Ha ha ha. Looks like the Jets fans are just as clueless as thier front office, and I love it. I feel sorry for Rex Ryan, like Mangini, he's had a QB thrust upon him for PR reasons, to the detriment of his football team as a whole. Last year Favre threw away the season while Chad was in Miami leading his team to the playoffs. And this years debaclement will have even longer lasting effects.

Picking Sanchez has nothing to do with football, it has to do with marketing the new stadium, and if you cant see that youre blind. It makes ABSOLUTELY ZERO sense to make that Sanchez trade football wise. Your O Line is average, with little depth. Youre OK at RB, but your WR corps is a joke. And you want to send a green rookie into that line-up? Sparano and Belicek are salivating over the thought of it. Yeah Miami won the East with bad wideouts and average lineman, but they did it with smoke/mirrors, the wildcat, and a veteran QB who is the most accurrate guy in league history.

Your defense should be very good, and they ought to keep you in games, but they will wear down over the course of the season because their offense can hardly stay on the field, much less put up some points. The opening part of your schedule is horrendous, @ Houston, New England, Tennesee, @ New Orleans, @ Miami. Youre staring 0-5 in the face, 1-4 if youre lucky. And at that point the season is basically over. As a fins fan, Im dissapointed, at at least wanted a challenge.

The worst part of the trade was the players given up. Most teams add 7-10 players to thier roster on draft day, you guys added three and lost three, for a net of ZERO. That's going to hurt badly in the back end of the roster, i.e. depth. While the rest of the division was shoring up holes and adding new players, the Jets were busy making sure their seat license sales hit thier target, so that there will be plenty of fans in the seats to watch thier team lose.

I didn't read what you said but I hate whatever it was.

starwitness
04-30-2009, 02:19 PM
The Jets OL is average? The Jets are "OK" at running back? Yeah, you seem to need one of these.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/18/Clue_Poster.jpg

There you go.






Upgrades all over the defense and coaching staff and the Jets are looking at 1-4 at best? Time to wake up from your dream world and re-enter reality.




Yes troll, that was the worst part of the trade. Giving up the two worst already replaced starters on the defense, and a backup quarterback. Riiiiiiiiiiight. It wasn't giving up all of the picks that was the bad part, it was giving up the scrubs. But you are a Dolphins fan, so you should be familar with scrubs given that your starting quarterback has the weakest arm in NFL history.

Go back to the dolphins forum and swoon over Pat White, your third second round backup QB in three years.

Gee thanks, you find me some clues, and I'll help find you some wins. Try Buffalo in game 6. Maybe.

Sure you upgraded the defense, I said as much. But so did New England with Darius Butler, Ron Brace, Sean Springs, Leigh Bodden, Patrick Chung, Tyrone McKenzie and Myron Pryor. So did Miami with Gibril Wilson, Eric Green, Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Tony McDaniel and perhaps Jason Taylor. Even Buffalo added Aaron Maybin, Jayrus Byrd, and Nic Harris. So adding Bart Scott, Lito Sheppard, and Jim Leohnard is nice, but it didnt happen in a vaccum.

But it gets better. The Pats also added Fred Taylor, Joey Galloway, Greg Lewis, Brandon Tate and some OL depth, 2 Ts and a G IIRC. Oh and some guy named Brady, too. Miami added Jake Grove, Joe Berger, Pat White, Pat Turner and Brian Hartline to the offense. Not all that impressive, but theyre alot better than the guys who were available last year, when Miami won the East, ended your season, and Mangini's/Favre's Jets careers, all in one afternoon. The Bills added T.O. and Dominic Rhodes, plus they upgraded thier interior O line nicely. The Jets? They got a green (no pun intended) QB, a back-up RB, and a reserve O lineman, while losing thier top WR. And they traded away three role players to do it. Again, if youre taking a wider view of things, you ought to notice that the Jets moved down the pecking order this offseason, not up.

And you can clown Pennington all you want, but he is the main reason Miami won the division last year. He had the 2nd highest passer rating in the league. While Favre, his replacement, was throwing your season into the hands of Andre Goodman and Phillip Merling, Chad was moving the chains, protecting the ball, and managing the game. He did it all year. And he'll have a better supporting cast this year, by the way.

As for the picks vs. the players, and which is more valuable. I'd say at least with players, you know what youre getting. Abram Elam is a good player, better than Jim Leonhard imo. But Mangini wants guys who know his system, and Ryan wants the same thing, so its a wash. The point is that when trade three players (four if you count the 2nd rounder) for one guy, that one guy had better be VERY good. Is Sanchez very good? Who knows. But the list of junior QB's coming into the league and struggling is very long, and Sanchez is no Manning, Palmer, or Roethlisberger. I think even you would admit that. He wont have any good WRs to throw to, and he wont have a great O line to protect him either. He'll have a live defense, and a decent running game, but so will Chad, and so will Tom. The Fins and Pats were both better than the Jets last year, two games better. You guys havent done anything to close the gap, and I'll put up four digits to say the gaps gotten wider.

starwitness
04-30-2009, 02:38 PM
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd147/meanamoeba/turrable.jpg

Yeah taking Sanchez was a risk, but EVERYONE knows it and we really didn't give up a whole lot to do it. A second that was in no mans land for what we and three backups? It's worth the shot at this point, we obviously were not comfortable with the situation. Your post was really an unnecessary trolling post that was almost entirely your own personal opinion, I'm really not sure why you posted anything at all other than to be an ass.

Also, Ryan apparently told Tannenbaum at Sanchez's workout that he was their guy, so he was not thrust on him.

Truth hurts, what can I say? And its not trolling when its true. You guys gave up alot for Sanchez, who media hype aside, is NOT a sure thing. The tab was three players, four if you count the 2nd round pick. Another poster mentioned that Elam, Coleman and Ratliff arent very good, and I wont disagree. But three roster spots is three roster spots, and where are you going to find replacements? Undrafted free agents and scrap heap veterans, thats where. Its going to hurt your depth no matter how you slice it. Its also going to hurt your depth to go an entire draft with no net additions to your roster. You added three, you lost three. Thats terrible, and it will haunt you for years, take it from me, because Dave Wanstedt was the king of the useless draft class down here.

Plus Sanchez is going to demand Matt Ryan type money. 6yrs, 72 million IIRC. All for a QB that MIGHT be good. He certainly wont be great, not with the suspect supporting cast he has. And Shonn Greene? You cant tell me it makes sense to trade three MORE picks for another player, and a RB at that. Especially for a team with a solid starter and back-up. Maybe if there was a top rated WR available I could understand, but RBs come a dime a dozen, and the Jets shouldve been trading down to accumulate picks, not moving up to make what amounts to a luxury selection. Call me a troll all you want, but I'll be stopping through from time to time to check on you Jets fans. I think a few "I told you so's" will be in order.

Crickett
04-30-2009, 03:59 PM
Gee thanks, you find me some clues, and I'll help find you some wins. Try Buffalo in game 6. Maybe.

Sure you upgraded the defense, I said as much. But so did New England with Darius Butler, Ron Brace, Sean Springs, Leigh Bodden, Patrick Chung, Tyrone McKenzie and Myron Pryor. So did Miami with Gibril Wilson, Eric Green, Vontae Davis, Sean Smith, Tony McDaniel and perhaps Jason Taylor. Even Buffalo added Aaron Maybin, Jayrus Byrd, and Nic Harris. So adding Bart Scott, Lito Sheppard, and Jim Leohnard is nice, but it didnt happen in a vaccum.

But it gets better. The Pats also added Fred Taylor, Joey Galloway, Greg Lewis, Brandon Tate and some OL depth, 2 Ts and a G IIRC. Oh and some guy named Brady, too. Miami added Jake Grove, Joe Berger, Pat White, Pat Turner and Brian Hartline to the offense. Not all that impressive, but theyre alot better than the guys who were available last year, when Miami won the East, ended your season, and Mangini's/Favre's Jets careers, all in one afternoon. The Bills added T.O. and Dominic Rhodes, plus they upgraded thier interior O line nicely. The Jets? They got a green (no pun intended) QB, a back-up RB, and a reserve O lineman, while losing thier top WR. And they traded away three role players to do it. Again, if youre taking a wider view of things, you ought to notice that the Jets moved down the pecking order this offseason, not up.

Ron Brace an upgrade over any of the Patriots d-linemen? Leigh Bodden an upgrade over........ anybody? Adding people doesn't mean you've upgraded your defense. When the Dolphins brought in Daunte Culpepper, was that an upgrade?

You mention the Jets brought in a backup RB, well, I'll say this. I hope all of the rookies you listed for the Dolphins, Patriots and Bills start. Because almost every single one you listed would be a downgrade. Ron Brace starting over Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren or Richard Seymour would be a godsend. So would Pat White starting anywhere on the Dolphins.

Lito Sheppard is a pro bowl corner, and as much as I like Dwight Lowry, Lito is a huge upgrade. Eric Barton's day was done long ago and Bart Scott is a huge upgrade.

Who does Joey Galloway provide an upgrade over?

Who does Pat White provide an upgrade over?

Who does Pat Turner provid......... I can't finish that sentence, I'm laughing too hard.




And you can clown Pennington all you want, but he is the main reason Miami won the division last year. He had the 2nd highest passer rating in the league.

Really? I thought it was all of the "smoke and mirrors". Good luck getting that to work a second year.




As for the picks vs. the players, and which is more valuable. I'd say at least with players, you know what youre getting. Abram Elam is a good player,

lol, so Abram Elam is good, while pro bowl running back and AFC leading rusher Thomas Jones is "ok". Yeah, go troll somewhere else. :rolleyes:

derza222
04-30-2009, 04:27 PM
Truth hurts, what can I say? And its not trolling when its true. You guys gave up alot for Sanchez, who media hype aside, is NOT a sure thing. The tab was three players, four if you count the 2nd round pick. Another poster mentioned that Elam, Coleman and Ratliff arent very good, and I wont disagree. But three roster spots is three roster spots, and where are you going to find replacements? Undrafted free agents and scrap heap veterans, thats where. Its going to hurt your depth no matter how you slice it. Its also going to hurt your depth to go an entire draft with no net additions to your roster. You added three, you lost three. Thats terrible, and it will haunt you for years, take it from me, because Dave Wanstedt was the king of the useless draft class down here.

Plus Sanchez is going to demand Matt Ryan type money. 6yrs, 72 million IIRC. All for a QB that MIGHT be good. He certainly wont be great, not with the suspect supporting cast he has. And Shonn Greene? You cant tell me it makes sense to trade three MORE picks for another player, and a RB at that. Especially for a team with a solid starter and back-up. Maybe if there was a top rated WR available I could understand, but RBs come a dime a dozen, and the Jets shouldve been trading down to accumulate picks, not moving up to make what amounts to a luxury selection. Call me a troll all you want, but I'll be stopping through from time to time to check on you Jets fans. I think a few "I told you so's" will be in order.

Trolling is trolling, and you're trolling. We KNOW Sanchez is a risk and we KNOW that trading up hurts our depth. We've been discussing it through this entire thread. We've been questioning the trade up for Shonn Greene. At this point as fans we can do nothing but hope that the convictions of our front office are right, as questionable as they may have been. There's really nothing to "I told you so", so if you do come back and tell me "I told you so" when I understand what you're saying, that is trolling.

Despite that, you underrate the defense and run game that we have, and I think it's premature to say we're 0-5 or 1-4 before training camp, let alone before a game has been played. I'm not telling you we won't be because that would be premature and overly cocky, I'm telling you it's early to say that. And I've really got nothing more to add to this discussion.

starwitness
05-01-2009, 12:01 AM
Ron Brace an upgrade over any of the Patriots d-linemen? Leigh Bodden an upgrade over........ anybody? Adding people doesn't mean you've upgraded your defense. When the Dolphins brought in Daunte Culpepper, was that an upgrade?

Brace is slated as the number two NT, behind Vince Wilfork. Based on his draft grade/position, he's a starting caliber nose that can provide excellent depth, and insurance in case Wilfork bolts after this season when his contract expires.

Leigh Bodden is an upgrade over Deltha Oneal, Johnathan Wilhite, Terrance Wheatley, and the rest of the scrubs NE had at corner last year. They were last in the league in allowing 3rd and long conversions by the way. Also, adding Sean Springs made Ellis Hobbs expendable, he was then traded to Philly for 2 draft picks.

Daunte Culpepper didnt work out b/c he never fully recovered from his ACL tear, but Gus Frerotte was the QB before that so thats really not a good example. Nice try though.

You mention the Jets brought in a backup RB, well, I'll say this. I hope all of the rookies you listed for the Dolphins, Patriots and Bills start. Because almost every single one you listed would be a downgrade. Ron Brace starting over Vince Wilfork, Ty Warren or Richard Seymour would be a godsend. So would Pat White starting anywhere on the Dolphins.

Now who's trolling? I already explained why Brace is an upgrade. And you cant possibly think Pat White is going to start, but I'll indulge you b/c its fun. White is being brought in to run the Wildcat, which worked well in 08' until teams started bringing 8-9 guys into the box to stop it. B/c White has a respectable arm, using an 8-9 man front vs the wildcat will be a huge risk. Pat ran a version of the wildcat his entire career at West Virginia, so he wont need much coaching on it. Nor will the rest of the team, since we ran it all last year. Opposing teams on the other hand, will have to spend large amounts of time devising a scheme to stop it, which will take away from thier ability to prepare for our other packages. Ronnie Brown was the wildcat trigger man last year, this year its Pat White, so yeah, I'd call it an upgrade.


Lito Sheppard is a pro bowl corner, and as much as I like Dwight Lowry, Lito is a huge upgrade. Eric Barton's day was done long ago and Bart Scott is a huge upgrade.

Correction, Lito Sheppard WAS a Pro Bowl corner. Did you see him play last year? He's still an upgrade over Lowery and Law though.

Who does Joey Galloway provide an upgrade over?

Perhaps you should bone up on your football knowledge. Galloway is being brought in as a third/fourth WR. His job will be to run deep, clear out, and maybe take advantage of teams who focus too hard on Moss and Welker. The Pats didnt have a deep threat last year, unless you count Moss, who's doubled on almost every play.

Who does Pat White provide an upgrade over?

Ronnie Brown. See above.

Who does Pat Turner provid......... I can't finish that sentence, I'm laughing too hard.

If you watched any Miami games last year, maybe the PLAYOFF game we lost, you'd have noticed we didnt have ANY possession WR's. Turner is 6'5" 230, he has decent hands, and decent route running ability. His size will allow him to do the dirty work over the middle and he'll also be a redzone threat, two things we were sorely missing last year. Working across from Ted Ginn, who drew alot of doubles, Davonne Bess and Greg Camarillo caught a combined 107 passes last year. Turner and Hartline are both bigger and better players. And with Cotchery, Smith and Stuckey as your WRs, I wouldnt be laughing, I'd be wondering why my team didnt draft some recievers as well.


Really? I thought it was all of the "smoke and mirrors". Good luck getting that to work a second year.

Smoke and mirrors refers to the Wildcat, Chad just played his butt off last year. He made plays, protected the ball, and moved the chains just enough to win games, and win the division. Will it work this year? Who knows, but Pat will be runnin the wildcat, and our WRs will be much improved, so we'll see.

lol, so Abram Elam is good, while pro bowl running back and AFC leading rusher Thomas Jones is "ok". Yeah, go troll somewhere else. :rolleyes

I see youve taken the OK out of context, probably on purpose, but just in case: Thomas Jones is over 30, which is a cardinal sin as a RB. Leon Washington is a decent backup and an excellent 3rd down back, but he's not an every down guy. So the Jets are "OK" at the RB position. Either way, it was professional negligence to trade three picks for Shonn Green.

1300 yds for one player is wonderful. But some teams would rather not run thier RB into the ground by giving him all of the carries. Miami split carries between Brown (214) and Williams (160) while Jones carried it 290 times to just 76 for Washington. Suit yourselves, I just hope for your sake that Jones doesnt catch Sean Alexander disease. A lil FYI, Ronnie and Ricky ran for 1575 yds. T Jones and Leon Washington ran for 1760. New England led the division in rushing yds @ 142 ypg (6th). The Jets had 125 (9th), Miami (11th)118, and the Bills (14th) 114. You could learn alot from a troll...

Crickett
05-01-2009, 12:28 AM
Brace is slated as the number two NT, behind Vince Wilfork. Based on his draft grade/position, he's a starting caliber nose that can provide excellent depth, and insurance in case Wilfork bolts after this season when his contract expires.

Yes, he can sit on the bench, just like Marquise Hill did (r.i.p. :().


Leigh Bodden is an upgrade over Deltha Oneal, Johnathan Wilhite, Terrance Wheatley, and the rest of the scrubs NE had at corner last year.

Quick reminder, Leigh Bodden spent last year helping Detroit becoming the first 0-16 team ever. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig upgrade there.


Daunte Culpepper didnt work out b/c he never fully recovered from his ACL tear, but Gus Frerotte was the QB before that so thats really not a good example. Nice try though.

So the answer is no.

Now who's trolling?
You.


I already explained why Brace is an upgrade. And you cant possibly think Pat White is going to start, but I'll indulge you b/c its fun. White is being brought in to run the Wildcat, which worked well in 08' until teams started bringing 8-9 guys into the box to stop it. B/c White has a respectable arm, using an 8-9 man front vs the wildcat will be a huge risk. Pat ran a version of the wildcat his entire career at West Virginia, so he wont need much coaching on it. Nor will the rest of the team, since we ran it all last year. Opposing teams on the other hand, will have to spend large amounts of time devising a scheme to stop it, which will take away from thier ability to prepare for our other packages. Ronnie Brown was the wildcat trigger man last year, this year its Pat White, so yeah, I'd call it an upgrade.

And Ronnie Brown did very well as the wildcat trigger man. If Pat White provides an upgrade, who does he provide an upgrade over that actually plays, since its so obvious that he's not going to be in the starting lineup?


Perhaps you should bone up on your football knowledge. Galloway is being brought in as a third/fourth WR. His job will be to run deep, clear out, and maybe take advantage of teams who focus too hard on Moss and Welker.

He's 80 years old (not literally), and like Daunte, who knows if he'll be able to come back 100% from the injury he had.

The Pats didnt have a deep threat last year, unless you count Moss, who's doubled on almost every play.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Yes, unless you count the best deep threat in the game, they don't have one. Right.

Who does Pat Turner provid......... I can't finish that sentence, I'm laughing too hard.

If you watched any Miami games last year, maybe the playoff game WE LOST, you'd have noticed we didnt have ANY possession WR's. Turner is 6'5" 230, he has decent hands, and decent route running ability. His size will allow him to do the dirty work over the middle and he'll also be a redzone threat, two things we were sorely missing last year.

His size will aloow him to do the work over middle, and he'll also be a redzone threat, something the Dolphins didn't have......... okay.

Brandon London 6'4 210
Ernest Wilford 6'4, 225
Anthony Fasano 6'4 250

Yes, I'm sure that extra inch in height will allow him to do what these three couldn't.


I see youve taken the OK out of context, probably on purpose, but just in case: Thomas Jones is over 30, which is a cardinal sin as a RB. Leon Washington is a decent backup and an excellent 3rd down back, but he's not an every down guy. So the Jets are "OK" at the RB position. Either way, it was professional negligence to trade three picks for Shonn Green.

I'll say this. I'll take Shonn Green over the fins 3rd, 4th and 7th round picks any day. And thats saying something because the Jets REALLY need WR help. And while Leon Washington isn't an every down back, hey, they got Shonne Green, a perfect complement to him. And Thomas Jones, yeah, people doubted him last year too after a lackluster 2007. We (we being Jets fans) knew it was due to poor o-line play. You (you being not a Jets fan, and a dolphins fan to boot) didn't.

I said good day sir.

starwitness
05-01-2009, 12:44 AM
Trolling is trolling, and you're trolling. We KNOW Sanchez is a risk and we KNOW that trading up hurts our depth. We've been discussing it through this entire thread. We've been questioning the trade up for Shonn Greene. At this point as fans we can do nothing but hope that the convictions of our front office are right, as questionable as they may have been. There's really nothing to "I told you so", so if you do come back and tell me "I told you so" when I understand what you're saying, that is trolling.

Despite that, you underrate the defense and run game that we have, and I think it's premature to say we're 0-5 or 1-4 before training camp, let alone before a game has been played. I'm not telling you we won't be because that would be premature and overly cocky, I'm telling you it's early to say that. And I've really got nothing more to add to this discussion.

Some of the guys on this forum are WAY too sensitive. What kind sports fan doesnt like a little smack talk? Im sorely dissapointed, talkin smack is as much a part of football as the Tampa 2!

I dont know how much else I can say in prasie of your defense. In theory, or on Madden 10, its one of the best in the league. But in practice, things are more complicated than just how good your players are. How good your defense is also depends on how good your offense is. How many points is your offense giving your defense to work with? Are you playing defense with a lead, forcing teams to pass, or from behind, when offenses are more unpredictable? Is your offense allowing your defense time to rest with long, time consuming drives? Or leaving them out to dry with three and outs and turnovers? Is the ST unit providing good kicks and good coverage to give opposing offenses poor field position? In terms of winning games, all of these matter just as much as how good your defensive players are.

That brings me back to Sanchez/Clemens, and which type of offense the Jets will have. Unless you upgrade the WR spot, you wont have any reciever that requires a double team. That means you'll be running against 8 man fronts the majority of the time, and even the best running teams struggle when teams can crowd the line of scrimmage. On the other hand, if you have good WRs (Moss & Welker for example) to keep the safeties away from the line, you can finish 6th in rushing on the legs of NFL legends like Sammie Morris, Kevin Faulk, and Ben Jarvis Green Ellis.

Your first five games include the Pats and Titans at home, and the Texans, Saints and Fins on the road. I see 1-4/0-5 and of course its too early to tell what will happen. But its also to early to tell who had a good draft class, or if Sanchez (or any draftpick/free agent) will pan out. Its too early to tell if Rex Ryan is a good head coach, or if Bart Scott's and Jim Leonhard's success were products of playing next to hall of famers (Ray Lewis/Ed Reed). Its too early to tell anything, but football fans like to discuss it anyway, thats what we're on the board for. All this trolling talk is wack, as if a little preseason smack talk is going to hurt anyone, Jeez...

starwitness
05-01-2009, 01:13 AM
Yes, he can sit on the bench, just like Marquise Hill did (r.i.p. :().

No comment, next.

Quick reminder, Leigh Bodden spent last year helping Detroit becoming the first 0-16 team ever. Biiiiiiiiiiiiig upgrade there.

So did Calvin Johnson. He must suck too. I see youre running out of intelligent things to say, must be the late hour.


So the answer is no.

Yes, the answer is no, lol.

You.

Guilty as charged, I guess. Didnt know men could be so sensitive. You are a man, right?

And Ronnie Brown did very well as the wildcat trigger man. If Pat White provides an upgrade, who does he provide an upgrade over that actually plays, since its so obvious that he's not going to be in the starting lineup?

One more time, Pat White can throw! He ran the spread (wildcat) his whole college career. Ronnie did ok, but he was not a threat to pass, and the scheme is pretty easy to stop if its one dimensional.

He's 80 years old (not literally), and like Daunte, who knows if he'll be able to come back 100% from the injury he had.

Good point. Lucky for them they signed Greg Lewis (another speed guy) and drafted Brandon Tate, its called depth. Or in your case, lackthereof.

Yes, unless you count the best deep threat in the game, they don't have one. Right.

Moss the best deep threat? 8 years ago, yeah. 2 years ago, maybe. Last year, probably not. This year, definitely not. Not unless Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Steve Smith, Lee Evans and Brandon Marshall all retire.

His size will aloow him to do the work over middle, and he'll also be a redzone threat, something the Dolphins didn't have......... okay.

Brandon London 6'4 210
Ernest Wilford 6'4, 225
Anthony Fasano 6'4 250

Yes, I'm sure that extra inch in height will allow him to do what these three couldn't.

Fasano is the only one on that least that will even see the field this year. And he plays TE.


I'll say this. I'll take Shonn Green over the fins 3rd, 4th and 7th round picks any day. And thats saying something because the Jets REALLY need WR help. And while Leon Washington isn't an every down back, hey, they got Shonne Green, a perfect complement to him. And Thomas Jones, yeah, people doubted him last year too after a lackluster 2007. We (we being Jets fans) knew it was due to poor o-line play. You (you being not a Jets fan, and a dolphins fan to boot) didn't.

I said good day sir.

Fine with me, you can take whoever you want. No one is doubting Jones, he played well last year, which is why youre talking out of both sides of your mouth right now. If Jones is good, and Leon is good, why oh why would you trade three picks for another RB? Especially when you clearly have greater needs at WR and you already traded 4 players (3 and a pick) to get Sanchez? Get some rest, you sound tired dude.

msolimani
05-01-2009, 01:18 AM
Pick your face up Starwitness!!! You had an uphill battle to begin with but you just got proven absolutely wrong.

msolimani
05-01-2009, 01:23 AM
Fine with me, you can take whoever you want. No one is doubting Jones, he played well last year, which is why youre talking out of both sides of your mouth right now. If Jones is good, and Leon is good, why oh why would you trade three picks for another RB? Especially when you clearly have greater needs at WR and you already traded 4 players (3 and a pick) to get Sanchez? Get some rest, you sound tired dude.

Maybe b/c RB is the position that takes the most pounding and is the most unpredictable injury wise. Look at the Broncos last year they went through 7 starting RB's. Not to mention that Thomas Jones is in the middle of a contract "situation" (don't want to call it a holdout yet) and who knows when he'll get back on the field.

starwitness
05-01-2009, 07:34 AM
Maybe b/c RB is the position that takes the most pounding and is the most unpredictable injury wise. Look at the Broncos last year they went through 7 starting RB's. Not to mention that Thomas Jones is in the middle of a contract "situation" (don't want to call it a holdout yet) and who knows when he'll get back on the field.

Sorry but that doesnt come close to justifying the Shonn Green trade. RBs do take alot of punishment, and Im more concerned with Jones age than his temper tantrum, but RBs come a dime a dozen. Its probably the easiest position to fill on a roster, and arguably the easiest position to play on thie field.

I know youre a Jets fan and all, but youe outsmarting yourself. The Jets needed a WR, still do actually. You guys are obviously planning on pounding the ball to protect your QB and your defense this year. But you have to at least have the threat of a pass game in order for that strategy to be effective. If teams know you cant go down the field then even elite backs like Adrian Peterson can be stymied b/c teams will just load the box w defenders and FORCE you to pass. The Pats have the worst run blocking O Line and worst running backs in the division, but they were tops in rushing yds in the division (6th in the league) b/c they have Moss and Welker to keep defenses honest.

msolimani
05-01-2009, 11:11 AM
Sorry but that doesnt come close to justifying the Shonn Green trade. RBs do take alot of punishment, and Im more concerned with Jones age than his temper tantrum, but RBs come a dime a dozen. Its probably the easiest position to fill on a roster, and arguably the easiest position to play on thie field.

I know youre a Jets fan and all, but youe outsmarting yourself. The Jets needed a WR, still do actually. You guys are obviously planning on pounding the ball to protect your QB and your defense this year. But you have to at least have the threat of a pass game in order for that strategy to be effective. If teams know you cant go down the field then even elite backs like Adrian Peterson can be stymied b/c teams will just load the box w defenders and FORCE you to pass. The Pats have the worst run blocking O Line and worst running backs in the division, but they were tops in rushing yds in the division (6th in the league) b/c they have Moss and Welker to keep defenses honest.

I'm not debating you that the Jets need a WR, they absolutely could use an upgrade. But we're also 4 months away from the season. How many solid veterans every year around the start of the season are cut as cap casualties(Pennington), put on the trade block(Boldin, Edwards) or for some other reason(Favre)? There's no need for them to panic in the draft and take one in rounds 3-7 if they don't have a high enough rating on one, which they obviously didn't.

It also comes down to philosophy, I agree that the passing game helps the run game and vice versa, but the Jets offense this year will be very similar to the Ravens of last year. They will rely heavily on the run game to get them going, and play very physical football. They will utilize the possesion guys(Keller and Cotchery should have solid years) and throw simple and safe plays to constantly move the chains. We do have the speed necessary to take the deep shots (Clowney and Stuckey) so you're just wrong there. Honestly, a blocking TE is more of a need for us than WR and the current moment.

starwitness
05-01-2009, 05:37 PM
I'm not debating you that the Jets need a WR, they absolutely could use an upgrade. But we're also 4 months away from the season. How many solid veterans every year around the start of the season are cut as cap casualties(Pennington), put on the trade block(Boldin, Edwards) or for some other reason(Favre)? There's no need for them to panic in the draft and take one in rounds 3-7 if they don't have a high enough rating on one, which they obviously didn't.

It also comes down to philosophy, I agree that the passing game helps the run game and vice versa, but the Jets offense this year will be very similar to the Ravens of last year. They will rely heavily on the run game to get them going, and play very physical football. They will utilize the possesion guys(Keller and Cotchery should have solid years) and throw simple and safe plays to constantly move the chains. We do have the speed necessary to take the deep shots (Clowney and Stuckey) so you're just wrong there. Honestly, a blocking TE is more of a need for us than WR and the current moment.

Dominant defense, solid running back, rookie QB, coach named Rex Ryan, Im suprised it took this long for someone to make the Ravens comparison.
Certainly its possible. But the Ravens had a MUCH easier schedule than the Jets have this year, and the Jets D will be good, but it wont be "Ravens" good.

I agree, there is no need to panic in the draft. But thats exactly what Tannenbaum seems to have done. He jumped up to number 5 to take Sanchez, (fearing Washington would trump him perhaps) even though none of the teams picking between 5 and 9 were much of a threat to take him. Not that it matters, you guys are going to be a pound the rock type and play defense type team anyway, so all you need is a Pennington type QB who can move the chains and protect the ball, moving up for Sanchez, or any othet flashy QB was unecessary.

What I dont think youre understanding is that the whole league can see your pound the ball strategy from a mile and away, and they arent going to just sit around and allow it to happen. Any coach with a brain is going to crowd the line of scrimmage and stuff the run, play tight man coverage to take away all fo the "safe" throws, and bring a variety of complex coverages and blitz packages to test the young QB. Its football 101.

If you like Clowney and Stuckey as your deep threat WRs then fine. Cotchery and Keller may in fact have decent years. But if the goal is to win games, then I just dont see where the Jets have much chance of improving on last year's record b/c the rest of the division has improved alot more than you guys have.

jmess15
05-01-2009, 08:21 PM
Dominant defense, solid running back, rookie QB, coach named Rex Ryan, Im suprised it took this long for someone to make the Ravens comparison.
Certainly its possible. But the Ravens had a MUCH easier schedule than the Jets have this year, and the Jets D will be good, but it wont be "Ravens" good.

I agree, there is no need to panic in the draft. But thats exactly what Tannenbaum seems to have done. He jumped up to number 5 to take Sanchez, (fearing Washington would trump him perhaps) even though none of the teams picking between 5 and 9 were much of a threat to take him. Not that it matters, you guys are going to be a pound the rock type and play defense type team anyway, so all you need is a Pennington type QB who can move the chains and protect the ball, moving up for Sanchez, or any othet flashy QB was unecessary.

What I dont think youre understanding is that the whole league can see your pound the ball strategy from a mile and away, and they arent going to just sit around and allow it to happen. Any coach with a brain is going to crowd the line of scrimmage and stuff the run, play tight man coverage to take away all fo the "safe" throws, and bring a variety of complex coverages and blitz packages to test the young QB. Its football 101.

If you like Clowney and Stuckey as your deep threat WRs then fine. Cotchery and Keller may in fact have decent years. But if the goal is to win games, then I just dont see where the Jets have much chance of improving on last year's record b/c the rest of the division has improved alot more than you guys have.

You've made your point. But games are not won in April and May. Who cares what you say or any of us for that matter. No one thought that the Dolphins would do anything last year, and Voila division champs. A lot of people were on the Bills bandwagon last year and look what happened. I remember early in the 2001 season I watched the Jets play what I thought was one of the worst teams I had seen in years. They had a bunch of retreads on their team and when Mo Lewis knocked out their starting QB I thought they'd be lucky to win a game all year. Well someone named Tom brady took over and they won a Super Bowl. My point is you cant tell until the games are played so why bother getting all riled up for something that you have no control over.

Hurricanes25
05-01-2009, 08:31 PM
I agree, there is no need to panic in the draft. But thats exactly what Tannenbaum seems to have done. He jumped up to number 5 to take Sanchez, (fearing Washington would trump him perhaps) even though none of the teams picking between 5 and 9 were much of a threat to take him. Not that it matters, you guys are going to be a pound the rock type and play defense type team anyway, so all you need is a Pennington type QB who can move the chains and protect the ball, moving up for Sanchez, or any othet flashy QB was unecessary.



Tannenbaum did not panic at all. The organization felt that we needed a QB and they liked Sanchez. He traded up to 5 and got a good deal. Tannenbaum has had a good track record trading up in the draft to get players that the Jets like. It works for us. End of story.

starwitness
05-01-2009, 09:09 PM
You've made your point. But games are not won in April and May. Who cares what you say or any of us for that matter. No one thought that the Dolphins would do anything last year, and Voila division champs. A lot of people were on the Bills bandwagon last year and look what happened. I remember early in the 2001 season I watched the Jets play what I thought was one of the worst teams I had seen in years. They had a bunch of retreads on their team and when Mo Lewis knocked out their starting QB I thought they'd be lucky to win a game all year. Well someone named Tom brady took over and they won a Super Bowl. My point is you cant tell until the games are played so why bother getting all riled up for something that you have no control over.

Obviously its early, so this is all idle chatter, I figured that much went without saying. The discussion is based on the information that is currently available, so the "too early" stuff is true, but it defeats the purpose of talking football, and thats why were here isnt it?

starwitness
05-01-2009, 09:21 PM
Tannenbaum did not panic at all. The organization felt that we needed a QB and they liked Sanchez. He traded up to 5 and got a good deal. Tannenbaum has had a good track record trading up in the draft to get players that the Jets like. It works for us. End of story.

Four players for one is a good deal? Lol. I hope Tannenbaum makes good deals like that every year.

The draft is a crap shoot. There's no telling who's a Tom Brady or who's a Tim Couch. Sanchez, Stafford and Freeman are average QBs imo. Had they come out last year, they wouldve been 2nd or third round picks. Wise move by them to come out this year b/c the QB class is super weak, but it doenst make them better players. Trading four players for any one of them is a huge risk, and had my team done it, I'd be killing them for it. It only makes sense as a financial move, to help sell the tickets at new stadium, and in that respect it was in fact a great idea. But it wont help win games.

derza222
05-01-2009, 10:15 PM
Four players for one is a good deal? Lol. I hope Tannenbaum makes good deals like that every year.

The draft is a crap shoot. There's no telling who's a Tom Brady or who's a Tim Couch. Sanchez, Stafford and Freeman are average QBs imo. Had they come out last year, they wouldve been 2nd or third round picks. Wise move by them to come out this year b/c the QB class is super weak, but it doenst make them better players. Trading four players for any one of them is a huge risk, and had my team done it, I'd be killing them for it. It only makes sense as a financial move, to help sell the tickets at new stadium, and in that respect it was in fact a great idea. But it wont help win games.

Unless you consider Abram Elam, Kenyon Coleman, and Brett Ratliff to be worth a second round pick combined, and I'm not sure what realistic individuals draft picks you can allocate to those individual players that can make them worth a second, they got a good deal on the value chart. And trading a second that in all likelihood would not have good value for what was needed was nothing awful either.

Yes the move hurt depth, and yes they are talking a chance on an unproven player. You either have to do that or hope to get lucky to land a franchise QB, and the Jets haven't been lucky for the past few years...or decades really. The organization found a QB they universally liked and felt would fit in here and decided to take a shot. We'll see how it plays out, but everybody liked him and felt it was worth it. As Jets fans all we can do is hope it works out, as a Dolphins fan all you can do is hope it doesn't work out, and nothing anybody says now means anything. We'll all have to see what happens. Sanchez has the work ethic and physical tools to make it work in the league, whether or not he manages to have success is, as I said, yet to be determined.

The fact of the matter is that you're coming in here and telling us things that we already know. Sanchez was a risk. The move hurt depth. We need a WR more than we need a RB. But at this point all we can do is hope as fans of our team things work out. Clowney, Smith, or Stuckey steps up in a big way this season. Shonn Greene justifies trading 2 picks to move up to get him. Sanchez is a franchise QB. Our offensive line depth is better than we anticipate. The defense comes together. Nobody gets hurt. That's what we'll do, and I understand you'll do the opposite.

Personally, I'm concerned about the lack of depth and I know there's about a 50/50 chance Sanchez will bust. I don't think we're going to make the playoffs this year, and I think starting Sanchez with our WR situation is a mistake. I wanted them to hand the starting job to Clemens, since I don't want Sanchez starting this year and I don't want him losing to Clemens in training camp. I don't like being between building long-term and having a win-now team on defense and the offensive front. We'll see what happens. It's just that nobody likes having a fan from another team come onto your team board and say your team ****** up and they're screwed. It's 50/50 for a lot of these guys, the lack of the depth hurts, we'll see how the defense comes together, and hopefully nobody gets injured. Can't wait till games start and we can see what's what.

LonghornsLegend
05-01-2009, 10:28 PM
Coming from an outsider stance I really don't see why people think that is giving up alot...If Sanchez turns into a pretty good QB you'll look back on that trade in 5 years and laugh at how little the amount was to get yourself a franchise QB.



I don't think it was just media and PR, the only piece the team was missing was a franchise QB and a WR, and we all know which one is more important out of the two...Rex Ryan knowing that he could his team was ready to make a run a QB makes alot of sense with the way the defense was upgraded to this point.


Had they not made the moves they did on that side of the ball, then yea you could question that, but the defense should be able to win some games for you, and I think Baltimore proved that you can win without a flashy WR.


I think you guys have a good recipe to start year 1 for Rex Ryan, and those holes will be filled in years to come, but I think it was more important that they addressed key positions, and I thought the trade was highway robbery...Cleveland was taking deals well below value all 1st round just because they wanted to move down.

jmess15
05-02-2009, 09:23 AM
The draft is a crap shoot. There's no telling who's a Tom Brady or who's a Tim Couch.

We all agree that the draft is a crap shoot, but earlier in the post you detailed all of the teams in the division and how upgraded themselves (and you mentioned a lot of the players they drafted). Seems like you are trying to have it both ways. The Jets draft picks will struggle but all of the other picks in the divison will not.

As for the phins, most of us on this board love Pennington. He is a good quarterback when tings are going well (running game, good defense etc) but as soon as something goes the wrong way he does too. You will see that this year I am afraid. However the difference between you and me is I won't go to your teams board and start yapping on how bad your organization is and how badly you handled some personnel moves. I relaize that you havent totally dissed us (you give props to our defense) but you get my point.

starwitness
05-02-2009, 02:44 PM
Unless you consider Abram Elam, Kenyon Coleman, and Brett Ratliff to be worth a second round pick combined, and I'm not sure what realistic individuals draft picks you can allocate to those individual players that can make them worth a second, they got a good deal on the value chart. And trading a second that in all likelihood would not have good value for what was needed was nothing awful either.

I think that late first and 2nd round picks are the most valuable commodities in the league because there are always starting caliber players available at multiple positions, and the picks dont carry the financial risk of a top ten selection. That said, I still dont like trading trading multiple picks and players for one guy, especially an unproven guy.

As for how much the Jets gave up for Sanchez, I think we can use the Jay Cutler trade as a measuring stick. Cutler is a proven pro bowl guy, a franchise player at his position. He's one of the top 3-5 young QB's in the league, and he's playing at a bargain price at 6yrs 47 million. The Bears got him for Orton, two 1s and a 3. The Jets traded a 1, a 2, Coleman, Ratliff, and Elam to get Sanchez, who could get somewhere between 60-70 million should he sign a 6 yr deal (Matt Ryan got 6yrs 72 million last year/Stafford got 6yrs 70 million + 6million in incentives). You could argue either side here, but I'd say the Bears and Jets gave up about the same amount to get thier guys. And I'd also say the Bears got a proven guy, at a much cheaper price, so thier trade for Cutler looks alot better then the deal you guys made for the 50/50 Mark Sanchez.

Yes the move hurt depth, and yes they are talking a chance on an unproven player. You either have to do that or hope to get lucky to land a franchise QB, and the Jets haven't been lucky for the past few years...or decades really. The organization found a QB they universally liked and felt would fit in here and decided to take a shot. We'll see how it plays out, but everybody liked him and felt it was worth it. As Jets fans all we can do is hope it works out, as a Dolphins fan all you can do is hope it doesn't work out, and nothing anybody says now means anything. We'll all have to see what happens. Sanchez has the work ethic and physical tools to make it work in the league, whether or not he manages to have success is, as I said, yet to be determined.

Hard to argue with any of that. All I can say is that I'm not in Dolfan mode here. Im just answering the question asked in the topic title, did the Jets give up too much? As several people have said, if Sanchez pans out, it'lll be seen as a good deal. But you cant argue that its not a major risk. And assuming that Ryan wants to pound the ball and play defense, a franchise QB isnt necessary. You guys need a smart, dependable QB who can move the chains and protect the ball. You dont need a guy to come in and chuck it 40 times a game, or throw for 4000 yards and 30 TDs. So Sanchez is not only a major risk, he's an unecessary risk as well.

The fact of the matter is that you're coming in here and telling us things that we already know. Sanchez was a risk. The move hurt depth. We need a WR more than we need a RB. But at this point all we can do is hope as fans of our team things work out. Clowney, Smith, or Stuckey steps up in a big way this season. Shonn Greene justifies trading 2 picks to move up to get him. Sanchez is a franchise QB. Our offensive line depth is better than we anticipate. The defense comes together. Nobody gets hurt. That's what we'll do, and I understand you'll do the opposite.

I'm coming in here to answer the question that the original poster asked, nothing more. If my opinion ruffles a few feathers, so be it. But this is a football forum, and we're all here to talk football, right?. The hopes you allude to are accurrate imo. But again, your team's place in the AFC East pecking order suffered considerably on draft weekend. Not so much b/c of the deals, but because (on paper) the Bills, Dolphins, and Patriots all improved thier rosters more than the Jets did. I HATE the Pats, and the Bills are sub human, but I give credit where it's due and both of those teams did well this offseason. If Brady is healthy, the Pats are scary good again, and theyve got three 2nd round picks again next year.

Personally, I'm concerned about the lack of depth and I know there's about a 50/50 chance Sanchez will bust. I don't think we're going to make the playoffs this year, and I think starting Sanchez with our WR situation is a mistake. I wanted them to hand the starting job to Clemens, since I don't want Sanchez starting this year and I don't want him losing to Clemens in training camp. I don't like being between building long-term and having a win-now team on defense and the offensive front. We'll see what happens. It's just that nobody likes having a fan from another team come onto your team board and say your team ****** up and they're screwed. It's 50/50 for a lot of these guys, the lack of the depth hurts, we'll see how the defense comes together, and hopefully nobody gets injured. Can't wait till games start and we can see what's what.

There's nothing wrong with a little smack talk. And you should blame the topic starter, not me. Im just answering the question. The Jets made some good moves this offseason. Lito Sheppard was a good player when I last saw him (2007) in a starting role. Bart Scott was a beast last year, and he'll be playing in the same system. I think Jets fans will love Jim Leonhard and Larry Izzo. Like you said, we'll have to see what happens. But with the info thats available today, I'd say the Jets have alot of work to do.

derza222
05-02-2009, 06:55 PM
Your opinion wasn't what ruffled the feathers, more how you stated it initially. I've got no beef with how the back and forth went since, it was just how you came off when you first posted in this thread that irked everyone, though props to you for not caring (and I'm not being sarcastic).

I agree the Jets have work to do, mostly offensively and some with depth on the defensive line and at safety. I do think our starting defensive unit can be a force to be reckoned with if the system change goes smoothly. It's very easy to underestimate what the additions of Leonhard, Scott, and Sheppard will do but they filled by far our three biggest holes on defense. We did not have a safety who could cover besides Rhodes which resulted in a lot of big plays for other teams and also forced Rhodes to cover more instead of roaming and making plays which allows him to make a bigger impact. Our inside linebackers also could not cover and Scott brings familiarity with the system along with more versatility and talent than Barton had. Finally, we had Ty Law playing #2 corner last year and Lito Sheppard has tremendous potential. He'll still be better than anybody we had last year in a worst case scenario though. All three should massively upgrade our starting unit, and depth won't be too much worse. Our depth wasn't fantastic last year either.

I more or less agree with everything else or generally see where you're coming from except the Jets and Bears giving up about equal amounts for Cutler and Sanchez. The Jets could not even get on the phone with the Broncos for Cutler, and would have been laughed halfway across the earth if they offered a first, a second, and those three backups for Cutler. The only reason they were able to get up to five is because the Browns defensive talent level is poor and Mangini is in love with some of our personnel guys that wouldn't be starting here. Wasn't even close.

xenon121
09-04-2011, 10:44 AM
I still think we're going to be finding low-priced veterans to fill the role on the team that 5th, 6th, 7th round guys would have. They're proven, and you end up cutting half of the later round guys anyway. Point taken though, it's absolutely tough to rely on a UDFA class even if you probably would have drafted some of those guys if you had the picks.

At this point there's really nothing left to do than to see if this strategy works, but I absolutely agree that depth is an issue right now. The one thing I do think, though, is that there are other ways to find depth than late-round picks. And those guys generally end up being more proven players. I think, provided our rookies don't cost too much, we're going to be raiding the waiver wire throughout the rest of the offseason to help the depth. Rotoworld said the Giants are going to be cutting some early 30's backup swing G/C guy soon, wouldn't be shocked if we start giving guys like that looks.

The one other thing this method does help is to prevent reaches. I'd bet that given we had over three full rounds between our second and third picks, we had Slauson rated higher than a sixth rounder. We may have considered him in the fourth, fifth round. So it does end up pushing things back.

i completely agree with you.